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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-11

---Logopened Thu Aug 11 00:00:23 2011
00:04<Endymion_Mallorn>Hi. Is there a NewGRF compatible with 1.1.1 that creates some road vehicles before 1930?
00:05<KittenKoder>One sec, I forgot the name of it.
00:06<KittenKoder>eGRVTS
00:06<KittenKoder>Most are horse drawn to, which is just cool.
00:07<Endymion_Mallorn>Thank you.
00:08<KittenKoder>You're welcome.
00:08<Endymion_Mallorn>Do I need to enable any dependencies, or will it "just work" when I pull it up in the NewGRFs window?
00:09<KittenKoder>As long as you have the latest OpenTTD it will just work.
00:15<Endymion_Mallorn>That's great. Thank you.
00:15<Endymion_Mallorn>Have a good night
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00:18*KittenKoder feels special for being helpful ... but doesn't let it go to her head.
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01:55<pjpe>isn't 2cc supposed to have parameters to disable trains from certain regions?
01:55<pjpe>i don't see it in the 2cc nightly
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03:02<@planetmaker>moin
03:02<@planetmaker>pjpe: nightlies of 2ccTS don't have that parameter currently
03:02<@planetmaker>iirc that is
03:02<pjpe>but the beta does?
03:03<@planetmaker>iirc only the 1.x versions
03:06<V453000>I dont think even that does
03:06<KittenKoder>I haven't seen it.
03:06<pjpe>the very old homepage for it mentions those parameters
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03:12<@planetmaker>version 1.x is also not 2.x
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04:24<@Terkhen>good morning
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07:22<Coke>Hi guys. Is it possible to remove just one track or perhaps even one tile in a station without destroying the whole thing?
07:24<Noldo>use the bulldozer thingie
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09:10<Coke>Noldo: it destoys the entire station? Not the bomb?
09:11<MNIM>Coke: select build station, then select the buldozer
09:12<@planetmaker>dynamite != bulldozer
09:12<MNIM>silly PM. not everybody knows that != = =/=
09:13<@planetmaker>yeah... and handwritten the ! above the = even means by definition
09:14<+michi_cc>MNIM: Not everybody knows that =/= = ≠ :p
09:14<MNIM>lol
09:15<MNIM>that's about the best representation i can give without having to start up character map
09:15<MNIM>hmmmh
09:15<MNIM>or wait
09:15*MNIM opens the autoreplace settings
09:15<MNIM>duhh
09:16<MNIM>I\'m
09:16<MNIM>hmmmh. odd
09:16<MNIM>that was supposed to be a null.
09:17<@planetmaker>well... the ≠ is for me alt+0
09:18<@planetmaker>and it was of course the last key I tested :-P
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09:22<Eddi|zuHause>Coke: select the build station tool, and press the "R" key
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>(works with most other tools as well)
09:37<@peter1138>alt-0 is window 0 :p
09:38<@peter1138>
09:38<@peter1138>
09:38<@peter1138>hm
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09:39<WMP>hello
09:39<@Terkhen>hi WMP
09:41<WMP>i have ask about gameplay ;) I http://wstaw.org/m/2011/08/11/plasma-desktopRf1824.jpg
09:41<WMP>i have: http://wstaw.org/m/2011/08/11/plasma-desktopRf1824.jpg
09:41<WMP>:)
09:41<WMP>and this is good?
09:41<WMP>train on bottom is stopped
09:41<+glx>it's a jpg, it can't be good :)
09:42<WMP>:)
09:42<@Alberth>having cross-overs at every block seems a bit overkill
09:43<WMP>this is trail to test
09:43<WMP>rail*
09:45<WMP>i shoud add other signals?
09:45<@Alberth>I normally only have such connections at every depot stop
09:45<@Alberth>if you want to have cross-overs, path signals seem fine
09:45<@Alberth>did you run tests?
09:46<WMP>Alberth: without normal signals?
09:46<WMP>yes ;)
09:46<@Alberth>did it work? if so, I'd say it is good :)
09:46<@Alberth>or did you want to know something specific?
09:47<WMP>and without normal signals train can drive if block between path signal is empty
09:49<@Alberth>'without normal signals', does that mean no signals at all?
09:50<WMP>yes
09:50<WMP>i have this on my screenshot
09:50<@Alberth>if you don't have any signals, you can have one train
09:50<@Alberth>and one train only
09:51<@Alberth>a block that gets entered through path signals can have several trains in the same block
09:54<WMP>hmmm, look: http://wstaw.org/m/2011/08/11/plasma-desktopmy1824.jpg
09:54<@Alberth>what should I see?
09:54<WMP>8 - wait for free road
09:54<WMP>3 and 28: is stopped
09:55<@Alberth>that seems right
09:55<WMP>" gets entered through path signals can have several trains in the same block"
09:55<WMP>maybe i wrong understand
09:56<@Alberth>a train reserves a path from the point where it is to the next signal. On that path no other train must be present
09:56<WMP>ok
09:56<@Alberth>8 cannot reserve a path to a next signal without needing a piece of rail where another train is
09:56<@Alberth>thus it waits
09:57<WMP>so all is good?
09:57<@Alberth>oh, sorry it is even stronger
09:57<@Alberth>each train reserves a path in the block, and those paths may not have shared tracks
09:58<WMP>yes
09:59<@Alberth>thus if a block has one exit, you can have only one train in a block, even with path signals
09:59<@Alberth>one train in *that* block
09:59<WMP>maybe i shoud add other signals to make fluent move?
10:00<@Alberth>if you have stopped trains it will never move fluently :)
10:00<WMP>yes, but look on this:
10:01<WMP>http://wstaw.org/m/2011/08/11/plasma-desktopaU1824.jpg
10:02<WMP>why 3 cant drive?
10:02<WMP>this isn;t fluently :(
10:05<@Alberth>probably depends on its order, but I don't really know the details of that
10:05<@Alberth>trains will drive after each other, at about 1 block distance, in my experience
10:06<@Alberth>although with that many cross-overs, the path-finder will try to be smart and constantly move trains between both tracks
10:06<@Alberth>better have less cross-over opportunities
10:06<WMP>Alberth: coult you give me tutorial with cross-over?
10:07<@Alberth>not sure whether it exists
10:07<WMP>:(
10:07<@Alberth>many people play without break down
10:08<@Alberth>I play with break down, and have cross overs every screen or less
10:08<@Alberth>normally also with a depot, but then you have trains entering/exiting a depot at the main line, which you may not like
10:11<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/depots.png <-- bottom 2 tracks go from left -> right
10:12<@Alberth>I just measured, the next such cross-over is 60 tiles further
10:12<@Alberth>and I have signals every 6 or 8 or so tiles
10:14<WMP>hmmm
10:14<WMP>http://wstaw.org/m/2011/08/11/plasma-desktopko1824.jpg
10:14<WMP>why 8 wait?
10:14<WMP>ok
10:15<WMP>i know ;)
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10:16<WMP>http://wstaw.org/m/2011/08/11/plasma-desktopYA1824.jpg - this is my depo
10:17<@Alberth>http://wstaw.org/m/2011/08/11/plasma-desktopko1824.jpg <-- 3 is moving from left to right, it cannot pass the signals, so it goes back
10:18<@Alberth>thus its reserved path uses both tracks
10:18<@Alberth>thus train 8 cannot reserve a path without using track pieces reserved by train 3
10:18<@Alberth>thus it waits :)
10:19<WMP>but now: http://wstaw.org/m/2011/08/11/plasma-desktopUT1824.jpg
10:19<WMP>?
10:21<@Alberth>ieky depots you have :) I have seen people do http://wiki.openttd.org/Right-of-way_Depot#Advanced_depot_configurations
10:22<WMP>"ieky"?
10:23<@Alberth>in your last screen shot, the path-finder may consider the detour around the stopped train too long
10:23*Alberth ponders a good translation for 'ieky'
10:24<@Alberth>ieky means mostly 'weird and wonderful' :)
10:24<@Alberth>(at least that's what I meant to say :) )
10:25<WMP>ughhh... so how to make this cross-over good? In train stoped all other trains drive on opposite rail
10:26<@Alberth>if you want to have two tracks, both should lead to the same destination
10:26<WMP>i want to have 10 tracks
10:27<WMP>and this is highway
10:27<WMP>highway/bus ;)
10:27<@Alberth>10!!!?????
10:27<@planetmaker>10? one per train or what?
10:27<WMP>oughh
10:27<WMP>sorry ;)
10:27<@Alberth>2 is more than sufficient for about 99.9% of the cases
10:27*planetmaker only remembers very rare occasions where more than 6 were needed
10:27<WMP>10 train
10:28<WMP>and 4 tracks
10:28<WMP>2 in >
10:28<WMP>and 2 in <
10:28<@Alberth>how long
10:28<@Alberth>?
10:29<WMP>http://wstaw.org/m/2011/08/11/plasma-desktopUT1824.jpg
10:29<WMP>:)
10:29<WMP>on http://wstaw.org/m/2011/08/11/plasma-desktopzW1824.jpg
10:29<WMP>sorry: http://wstaw.org/m/2011/08/11/plasma-desktopzW1824.jpg
10:30<@Alberth>10 trains is not much, you probably don't need 4 tracks
10:30<WMP>but i want ;)
10:31<@Alberth>that's a good enough reason :)
10:31<WMP>:)
10:32<WMP>and i have bug: whan i divert train on big speed, train in this same point have speed 0 ;)
10:32<WMP>or is stopped
10:32<WMP>from 200 to 0 in this same point? wow!
10:33<@Alberth>the program has very good brakes ;)
10:33<WMP>very, very good ;)
10:34<WMP>moscow have 90k poopulation
10:34<WMP>why i have on my terminal only 60 peoples?
10:35<@Alberth>provide better service
10:36<@Alberth>always have a train loading
10:36<WMP>i'm only in moscow
10:37<@Alberth>make a moscow <-> moscow connection :)
10:37<@Alberth>as long as you use two stations, it will work
10:37<WMP>to other station in moscow?
10:45<@Alberth>sure, moscow-north and moscow-south :)
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10:45<@Alberth>I often put 3 or more stations around a city and have lots of trains driving around in circles
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12:43<CiprianI>I want to install some newGRFs but I don't know how manually to them, since there is no OPEN TTD/data in My Documents, but there is "OpenTTD\content_download\data" full with ".tar" newGRFs and not .grf
12:43<CiprianI>:s
12:43<CiprianI>Might you help me, please?
12:46<CiprianI>...
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>do not put things in content_download
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>this is the place where ingame downloads are stored, so your changes may be overwritten
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12:47<Eddi|zuHause>OpenTTD\data must be the directory, if it does not exist, create it
12:50<CiprianI>Thanks
12:51<@planetmaker>as the readme verbosely talks about ;-)
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13:28<Coke>Eddi|zuHause & MNIM & planetmaker : thanks! :)
13:28<Coke>If I have a newerf (swedish trains) and someone wants to play with on LAN, they too have to install that grf manually, right?
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13:30<Coke>Also, is it considered "cheating" to loan a lot of money for a quicker start? I don't know why, but I'm reluctant to loan money even in a game. Hehe.
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13:33<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they have to, and no, it's not
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>if the server owner wants to, he can set the difficulty level so you can't loan anymore money
13:33<Coke>Ok. Im trying the swedish town names now, it's hilarious. Looks like towns that could really exist.
13:34<Coke>Are we really that predictable when it comes to town names? :)
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13:37<Wolf01>oddink
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22733 /trunk/src/lang/ (romanian.txt unfinished/basque.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: basque - 78 changes by Thadah
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 55 changes by Peymanpn
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: romanian - 2 changes by tonny
13:56<@Alberth>evenink Wolf01
13:57<@Alberth>Coke: depends on the town name grf, some are simply lists of existing cities, others are made up
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16:00*andythenorth wonders
16:00<andythenorth>the 'change year' cheat calls a function?
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16:06<Hirundo>yes, it calls ClickChangeDateCheat indirectly
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16:11<andythenorth>hmm
16:11<andythenorth>could a patch call that once per year?
16:14<Hirundo>In principle yes, the best way would be to move the 'reset stuff when the year magically changes' to a common function an call that both from your patch and from the date cheat function
16:15*andythenorth ponders a dumber approach to daylength issues :P
16:15<andythenorth>pikka gave me the idea
16:16<andythenorth>meanwhile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY_CzPD2cYs&feature=share
16:27<frosch123>the drivers sit on the wrong side
16:28<andythenorth>indeed
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16:50<Wolf01>'night(ly)
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17:24<Coke>Is depot considered safe stopping point by one way path signal?
17:30<KittenKoder>???
17:30<KittenKoder>Best not to put any signals between the depots and main track.
17:30<KittenKoder>If I understand your question.
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17:33<Coke>No.
17:33<Coke>I have two station tracks + 1 depot
17:33<Coke>if the station is occupied by two trains I'd like the arriving train to wait in the depot
17:34<KittenKoder>Oh, then yeah.
17:34<Coke>Hm, it says "waiting for free path" in my test
17:34<KittenKoder>That means it's waiting for a track to free up.
17:35<supermop_>coke, yes you can use it like that
17:35<Coke>supermop_: hm. i wonder why my test dint work
17:35<supermop_>do like this:
17:36<KittenKoder>Perhaps your other lights are misplaced or there's a stuck reserve.
17:36<CraKinShOt>I think they'll keep going in and out of the depo
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17:36<supermop_>====P=v=SSSSSSP
17:37<supermop_>where = is track, P is path signal,
17:37<supermop_>v is where depot is
17:37<supermop_>and s is station
17:37<supermop_>so long as the station is full, all new trains will enter depot
17:38<supermop_>as soon as station is clear, the top train in the depot will leave
17:38<supermop_>but until then it will not block new trains from entering the depot
17:40<Coke>it doesnt do that for me
17:40<supermop_>hm
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17:42<Coke>I have the two tracks do a zig zag just before the station so either can be picked
17:42<Coke>hang on
17:46<Coke>nope
17:48<Coke>it only works if the exit signal is in both directions
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17:49<Coke>nope. wont go to the depot
17:49<supermop_>wait are you use path signals or entry/exit signals?
17:51<Coke>a path signal
17:51<Coke>i had a problem in the zigzag area if trains entered from north and south at the same time
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17:51<Coke>and i didnt have the space for longer entry/exit, so I read you could use the depots as escape stop
17:54<Coke>seems the patherfinder cant see the exit
17:57<Coke>this is just weird and its getting late
17:57<Coke>seems like only one of the engines wants to pass through the path signal, the other waits eveven thoug theres a nice path available
17:58<CraKinShOt>sounds like a stuck reservation
18:00<KittenKoder>That's what I would think.
18:00<CraKinShOt>Options -> Interface -> Display Options -> Show Reservation
18:01<CraKinShOt>if you have a lone piece that is greyed out, then its stuck and you need to rebuild it
18:01<Coke>show reserved tracks?
18:01<CraKinShOt>yeah
18:02<CraKinShOt>at least that is my guess
18:02<Coke>what should I see?
18:02<Coke>no grey pieces
18:02<Coke>well, except the metal on the rail
18:02<Coke>wait
18:02<duckblaster>some tracks will be darker
18:03<Coke>exactly
18:03<duckblaster>those are reserved
18:03<Coke>why is that?
18:03<duckblaster>only the train that reserved that track can use it
18:03<duckblaster>untill it is released
18:03<duckblaster>when the train leaves that peice
18:04<duckblaster>track can only be reserved once at a time
18:04<CraKinShOt>If the bug it still present, sometimes they get stuck
18:04<Coke>theres no train on the greyed out piece
18:04<CraKinShOt>if you have grey track somewhere where there is no train then its stuck
18:04<Coke>and the depot still doesnt work
18:05<CraKinShOt>rebuild that piece
18:05<Coke>it still stops when the two station tracks are occupied even tho a depot is available
18:05<CraKinShOt>they won't go for the depo by default
18:05<CraKinShOt>they'll wait for the station to free up
18:05<KittenKoder>The escape depot I have never gotten to work with PBS.
18:06<Coke>right, so I was right from the start, using them as a safe stop point after a path signal just doesnt work
18:06<CraKinShOt>nope
18:06<Coke>hmmmm.
18:07<Coke>so how do you guys solve it? big parking lot?
18:07<CraKinShOt>just have double tracks and a long entry stretch. the trains will build up on there and allow trains to exit the station
18:08<CraKinShOt>bar that set up a loader to supply that station with more product, so your trains don't wait around
18:09<Coke>I usually have a 7x7 on busy spots
18:09<Coke>the problem are the long congestions just before if I have an incoming double track
18:09<KittenKoder>I use rail "yards", basically parking lots.
18:10<Coke>there is a way I could force them to depot i think
18:11<KittenKoder>But lately I've been on a minimalist streak, working an entire game with about 50 trains total.
18:11<CraKinShOt>if space is an issue just have another station further out and a loop of trains that supply the bigger one
18:11<+michi_cc>Coke: A depot is a safe stopping point, but as it is not the actual destination of the train in question, reversing through a depot will be heavily penalised in the pathfinder over the direct route (yapf.rail_depot_reverse_penalty controls that)
18:12<KittenKoder>Also, drive-through stations, or ROROs, tend to work best in high traffic spots.
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18:12<jackk>Jeesus, this is busy. Didn't know you guys had an IRC, just logged off another one I use.
18:13<KittenKoder>Well, hi.
18:13<pjpe>coke how about you take a picture of your station thing
18:13<jackk>I have just 1 issue I wanted to ask - Is it usual to have to download an AI for my game after I've downloaded the whole game? Because I never get any AI businesses in my games?
18:14<pjpe>uh yeah
18:14<pjpe>you get ai through the newgrf online content thing
18:14<jackk>Ahh okay, I'll try negotiate my way through that now.
18:15<KittenKoder>I liked the original AI ... I miss that one.
18:15<Coke>michi_cc: what do you mean penalized?
18:15<pjpe>aren't there a few original ai on the service
18:15<pjpe>pretty sure there are
18:15<jackk>They all seem to be town names etc. Is there AI somewhere in there amongst the huge list?
18:15<pjpe>coke the way the pathfinder works
18:15<pjpe>is how a* and basically all path finding/graph traversal algorithms work
18:15<pjpe>it takes a bunch of possibilities
18:15<pjpe>sees which one 'costs' more to go through
18:15<pjpe>so if you have two tracks
18:16<pjpe>one which goes through a station and one which doesn't
18:16<KittenKoder>pjpe, I've tried a bunch but usually all they do is set up bus stations and 100 buses for every 2 stations.
18:16<pjpe>the station will cost more and the pathfinder will not want to choose it
18:16<pjpe>unless it has to
18:16<Coke>So the path signal will allow the train to pass if I have the depot in the orders list?
18:16<pjpe>yeah sounds about right for the original ai
18:16<KittenKoder>The original one didn't do that when I played ....
18:17<KittenKoder>But that was TTD.
18:17<Coke>time to catch some Z's. have a good night fellas
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18:18<jackk>Am I using the in-game newgrf content scanner to find new AI? Because all i'm seeing is town names etc.
18:19<KittenKoder>Click Online Content on the main menu, not the NewGRF one.
18:19<jackk>Ahh nice one. Any suggestions for relatively beginner players?
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18:22<KittenKoder>I didn't like any of them.
18:22<pjpe>admiralai is the one that's recommended
18:22<pjpe>in my mind
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