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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-12

---Logopened Fri Aug 12 00:00:24 2011
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04:09<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:27-!-Mucht is "Martin Nussbaumer" on @#coopetition @#JJ @+#openttdcoop.association #wwottdgd #openttd @#openttdcoop
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06:33<TramOfDeath>There's a glitch with OTTD where music won't loaded unless located in install/gm
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06:34<@planetmaker>is thereß
06:34<TramOfDeath>Particularly, SJA
06:34<@planetmaker>Music has always to be located somewhere in one of the gm folders
06:35<TramOfDeath>It doesn't play if it's in conten~1/gm
06:35<@planetmaker>the folder name also would be content_download/gm
06:35<@planetmaker>but that's only where ingame download content should go
06:35<TramOfDeath>I know full name, you got my point
06:36<TramOfDeath>SJA is an ingame download after all
06:36<TramOfDeath>SJ anthology
06:37<TramOfDeath>I have a "portable omni-install" of OTTD
06:38<Rubidium>might be that those 'portability' wrappers mess things up
06:40<Rubidium>though I wonder why those portability installation things are needed; probably because "readme" doesn't entice to read or so
06:40<@planetmaker>whatever this 'portability' thingy is
06:41<TramOfDeath>Not a portability wrapper. Just this:
06:42<TramOfDeath>erm, wrong one, remove #tips at end
06:42<@planetmaker>most likely it's an issue then with case of paths
06:43<TramOfDeath>so it's install/content_downloads/gm
06:44<TramOfDeath>not %documents%/openttd/content_downloads/gm
06:44<@planetmaker>~/.openttd/content_download/gm is the default user dir compiled in our binaries for linux
06:44<@planetmaker>there's no "s"
06:44<TramOfDeath>oh, no s... my bad
06:45<@planetmaker>in any case: I suggest to try one of our official binaries
06:45<TramOfDeath>The installer USES official binaries
06:45<@Alberth>and reading the do-no-readme file may also help as it explains in detail how openttd looks for files
06:46<TramOfDeath> - using official installer-less IP and official linux-generic
06:46<@planetmaker>the readme, though, tells that some/path/install/... is not where OpenTTD ever looks
06:47<TramOfDeath>so it will not look for music in content downloads when portability is enforced by placing the CFG?
06:48<TramOfDeath>in the manual, it is clear that portability is enforced by having openttd.cfg made in the install folder
06:49<@Alberth>I don't know, my Linux doesn't play the music, and I didn't bother to fix it
06:50<TramOfDeath>c:\openttd\content_download\gm music doesn't play even though being selectable
06:50<TramOfDeath>but same music pack moved to c:\openttd\gm plays finely.
06:51<@planetmaker>and openttd.exe is where?
06:52<TramOfDeath>Read the wikihow manual first.
06:55<Rubidium>I wonder where OpenTTD places the music when downloading it. As it extracts it, it might very well be needed that it's in a subdirectory of content_download/gm/
06:56<Rubidium>and/or that it requires some metadata from the content download system to be there as well
06:56<Rubidium>but then... *why* are you putting stuff that is NOT downloaded by OpenTTD in content_download?
06:58<TramOfDeath>SJ anthology IS from content system
06:58<TramOfDeath>Scott Joplin Anthology
06:59<Rubidium>and OpenTTD downloaded it into that directory?
06:59<Rubidium>or did you move the files yourself?
07:01<TramOfDeath>OTTD downloaded it, it got extracted as content_download\gm\scott_joplin_anthology-2.0.0
07:02<TramOfDeath>It was selectable but didn't play from there
07:04<TramOfDeath>After I moved it to openttd\gm\scott_joplin_anthology-2.0.0, it plays just OK
07:07<@planetmaker>it works for me from ~/Documents/OpenTTD/content_download/gm ...
07:07<@Alberth>dbg: [grf] Checking ~/openttd/industry_building/bin/content_download/gm/openmsx-0.3.1/openmsx.obm for base music set
07:07<@Alberth>dbg: [grf] Adding OpenMSX (96) as base music set
07:07<@Alberth>it seems downloaded music ends up at the right place and gets found too
07:08<@Alberth>I cannot test whether it gets played
07:09<@planetmaker>found is needed as it can be selected
07:10<TramOfDeath>yikes, registering in another place...
07:11<TramOfDeath>just for one silly piece of p00p to be removed...
07:11<TramOfDeath>I forgot my OTTD acc... :@
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11:20<@planetmaker>that was quick ;-)
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>the problem when you have range-fight riders, you don't have any useful units to capture cities with...
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12:35<aditsu>hi, there's a multiplayer game that I can't join anymore
12:36<aditsu>it loads and shows the frozen map, then after a long time it says I joined and then immediately disconnects
12:36<aditsu>what can I do about it?
12:37<@planetmaker>probably not much. That's the behaviour if the game is too "heavy" for a client to join
12:38<aditsu>hm.. does the game run slower when a LOT of trains got stuck? or it doesn't affect it?
12:39<+michi_cc>If stuck means "waiting for free path", then yes, there is an effect.
12:40<aditsu>I noticed that happening in some of the other companies earlier (when I could still join)
12:41<aditsu>and it's a big map too
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12:45<Rubidium>I guess it's his computer; it's even too slow to stay connected on IRC ;)
12:45<@planetmaker>of course the amount of vehicles and the map size are what makes a game eat much cpu
12:45<@planetmaker>oh, he's gone
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12:51<aditsu>sorry I had a crash
12:53<aditsu>I'm sure the game can run on my computer, it's just the time when it connects.. there should be something about that, perhaps a timeout setting...
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12:57<aditsu>or if the game was multithreaded
12:58<@planetmaker>upon connection to a server, you computer has to a) download the map and b) compute the game state from when the map download started to what it is now
12:59<@planetmaker>that might be too much in the time it has.
12:59<@planetmaker>there's a lag setting for clients which is server-side only
12:59<@planetmaker>which allows more or less lag for clients
12:59<@planetmaker>or a server can choose to pause until a client finished connecting
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12:59<@planetmaker>but... both usually doesn't help much
12:59<aditsu>that means I should contact the admin, but I can't without connecting to the game
13:00<Rubidium>being able to run a game does not mean the game runs as fast as it ought to run
13:00<@planetmaker>also, yes
13:01<@planetmaker>do you have a rough guestimate on total(!) vehicle number and map size?
13:01<Rubidium>it is't 0.05s slower per tick than normal you won't really notice it, but those seconds add up quickly
13:01<aditsu>map size is 2048*2048, total vehicles... I don't really know
13:01<@planetmaker>50ms / tick?
13:01<aditsu>might be over 1000
13:01<@planetmaker>it's half speed :-P
13:02<+glx>2048*2048 is usually too big for any computer :)
13:02<@planetmaker>well, that's already a lot, esp. on such big map
13:02<@planetmaker>so it's really your computer being too slow for this game in multiplayer mode
13:02<aditsu>I wonder if any of the other players has a significantly faster computer, otherwise nobody can connect
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13:03<@planetmaker>might as well be.
13:03<@planetmaker>Esp. the multi-core cpus usually perform worse than the lesser-core cpus as then the single cores are faster
13:03<aditsu>depends on the cores
13:04<aditsu>I got a Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E8500 @ 3.16GHz
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13:06<@planetmaker>it should get you a long way, but also that one has its limits
13:07<@planetmaker>esp. when there are many boats involved
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13:12<aditsu>I don't think there were any boats in that game.. anyway, I'm trying to contact the admin, he seems to have multiple games in parallel
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13:30<frosch123>hmm, i guess ottd also plays a loud alert when there is a tornado warning for your region
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>i can't reproduce that
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22734 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 13 changes by Peymanpn
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13:46<Ammler>sorry :-$
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13:51<CiprianI>How to install 32bit graphic pack?
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13:52<Rubidium>nobody has, as of yet, made a reasonably finished 32bits graphics pack that works with standard OpenTTD
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13:53<Rubidium>there are some that require that you install some modified version of OpenTTD, but most I hear of that are requests for help to install that (which I can't really help with: see the 32bpp graphics forum for more details)
13:53<Rubidium>Wolf01: evenly
13:54<Wolf01>and you oddly forgot about my almost finished brickland 32bpp graphics pack
13:54<Wolf01>ok, there are the terrain and tracks only but...
13:55<@planetmaker>last time I asked, I was told that the same 32bpp packs work also with trunk
13:56<Rubidium>planetmaker: "finished" is the operative word there
13:56<@planetmaker>quite so. sadly so
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13:59<@Alberth>planetmaker: you don't seem to be able to set hangar positions in newgrf, is that conclusion correct?
14:00<@planetmaker>Alberth: in current trunk?
14:00<@planetmaker>one cannot, as they must be part of the statemachine knowledge
14:01<@Alberth>hmm, how does the game detect a click at a hangar tile then
14:01<Rubidium>there's a list of tiles that's a hangar
14:01<@Alberth>the source does have a list of tile positions
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14:02<@Alberth>Rubidium: exactly, which means a newgrf airport cannot move the hangar currently
14:03<@Alberth>(I think so, at least)
14:03<Rubidium>sounds plausible
14:09<supermop_>hah, tornado warning
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14:11<@planetmaker>supermop_: xkcd? ;-)
14:14<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22735 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix [FS#4718]: triggering NOT_REACHED when playing with a NewGRF that supplies genders/cases for a language that you removed from your installation
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14:34<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22736 /trunk/src/saveload/strings_sl.cpp: -Codechange: constify some numbers
14:36<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22737 /trunk/src/saveload/ (cheat_sl.cpp company_sl.cpp strings_sl.cpp): -Fix [FS#4717]: some corrupted savegames could crash OpenTTD instead of showing the "savegame corrupted" message
14:39<supermop_>when I saw the earlier comment about ottd, I just assumed frosh was being insane, or that somehow there was actually a tornado there and he had confused the local warning system with his computer
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15:20<@Alberth>lots of discussion in the dutch train set thread :)
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15:22<@planetmaker>hello Hyronymus
15:26<Hyronymus>yes, discussion is going well
15:34<KittenKoder>Variety is always good.
15:36<Hyronymus>try that on your gf :P
15:36*KittenKoder is not a lesbo
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15:49<andythenorth>"omg it's a girl" :P
15:49<andythenorth>you mean?
15:50*KittenKoder gasps
15:50<KittenKoder>How dare girls play video games!
15:50<andythenorth>or write code
15:50<KittenKoder>Don't they know it's all boys stuff!
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15:50<KittenKoder>andythenorth, don't remind me, it's the reason I hate my mother.
15:51<KittenKoder>If she hadn't been such a wench about my coding, I would have worked at MS.
15:52<Hyronymus>and now you work at?
15:52<Hyronymus>Google? Apple?
15:53<KittenKoder>Freelance network person.
15:53<KittenKoder>But that's not the suck part.
15:54<KittenKoder>The suck part is that I didn't get to learn enough early on to be big.
15:56<KittenKoder>I am of the mind they make monorail suck on purpos4e.
15:57<@planetmaker>KittenKoder: then draw us a new default monorail (or maglev) ;-)
15:58<@planetmaker>Personally I could do with other default maglev tracks...
15:58<KittenKoder>Not talking about the look.
15:58<@planetmaker>similar to what you suggest in the forums
15:58<KittenKoder>I'm in Seattle, famous for the toy monorail ... eye candy from some expo.
15:58<@Alberth>perhaps they looked at the real world monorail specs?
15:59<KittenKoder>... and the more recent failed monorial system.
15:59<KittenKoder>Alberth, that's my point. ;)
16:00<KittenKoder>Modern monorail designers must just be designing these things to be fail on purpose.
16:00<@planetmaker> <-- I just wondered why sawmills never show any of the lumber they produced like here...
16:01<andythenorth>probably SF didn't want to draw it
16:01<@Alberth>oh, you are not talking about the OpenTTD monorail
16:02<@Alberth>planetmaker: very few industries do that
16:02<@planetmaker>Alberth: yes. I wonder why
16:03<KittenKoder>I may have to make some sci-fi based monorials if and when I make the sci-fi maglevs.
16:03<@planetmaker>looks better this way IMHO
16:03*planetmaker considers to just change the sawmill to what I just posted
16:03<@Alberth>KittenKoder: too obsessed with high-speed to be much bothered about reliability, I guess
16:03*planetmaker would need to remember where the lumber is from
16:03<andythenorth>planetmaker: some places in FIRS I've used both input + output cargos
16:03<andythenorth>just looks better
16:03*Alberth agrees
16:04<andythenorth>that's ISR lumber
16:04<KittenKoder>Alberth, probably.
16:04<@planetmaker>ok, thanks :-)
16:04<andythenorth>drawn by mart3p IIRC
16:05<@Alberth>or perhaps 'speed' sells better than 'reliable' for the people that pay the bill :)
16:05<@planetmaker>yeah, then I'll find. It was already used in OpenGFX. I just didn't know anymore where I got it from back then...
16:06<KittenKoder>Anyhow, FYI for those who might care, when I do make the sci-fi trainset, it won't be to include high speed earlier, but so players can have a science fictiony looking set, nor will I make 1,000 mph trains with 50,000 hp ... etc.
16:06<@Alberth>sounds good :)
16:07<KittenKoder>Woohoo! Just got the 2cc Shinkansen in my current game ... those are so pretty.
16:09<KittenKoder>Personally, I love how the maglev look and the whole "frictionless" concept, but I think they move too fast and there is not enough variety ... and the OGFX ones suck. >.<
16:10<@planetmaker>KittenKoder: make better ones. Honestly
16:10<KittenKoder>I forgot the name of my favorite one ... appearance wise I mean, of the 2cc set.
16:10<KittenKoder>planetmaker, I will, just want to play with my new tracks a bit first to find all the problems.
16:12<KittenKoder>I should play a game with breakdowns turned off so I can just pick which trains I like.
16:14<andythenorth>has anyone taught their editor to colour in nml?
16:15<@planetmaker>Terkhen did that
16:15<KittenKoder>The c syntax coloring seems to work well enough for me.
16:16<andythenorth>I'll try that
16:17<KittenKoder>I like the platforms from NewStations ... the ones that show the little people.
16:17<frosch123> <- has syntax highlighters for notepad++ and geany
16:18<KittenKoder>The Industrial Renewel set is awesome to, but doesn't have all the cargo for FIRS.
16:18<@planetmaker>no station set has
16:18<KittenKoder>I noticed.
16:18<@planetmaker>isr is open-source
16:18<@planetmaker>thus... can be picked up and updated
16:18<KittenKoder>That's why I was going to try stations, but if NML doesn't support them yet, I hate clunking with ASM.
16:19*andythenorth tries to figure out nml
16:19<@planetmaker>yeah... that's holding me back, too, KittenKoder ;-)
16:19<KittenKoder>NML is nice.
16:19<KittenKoder>Just all the bit counting makes my head hurt. >.<
16:20<@planetmaker>the bit counting in NML?
16:20<@planetmaker>or in nfo / asm?
16:20<KittenKoder>Well, ASM is what I use to use.
16:20<@planetmaker>it's a matter of getting used to, though
16:20<KittenKoder>A looooong time ago before there was c.
16:20<KittenKoder>Looked at NFO and had flashbacks.
16:21*andythenorth is 20% baffled by NML so far
16:21<KittenKoder>Remembering the days of trying to get animated sprites in Apple IIe.
16:21<KittenKoder>andythenorth, the documentation for NML is lacking, which is what baffled me.
16:21<KittenKoder>They need more contributors.
16:21<@Alberth>without assembler? ugh
16:22<andythenorth>mostly I think I just can't read ALL_CAPS
16:22<KittenKoder>Yep, Alberth .... simple op codes.
16:22*planetmaker should change the default config... clearing limit reached :-P
16:22<@planetmaker>I set it to 10 tiles
16:22<andythenorth>ALL_CAPS is just rectangles to me
16:22<KittenKoder>ALL_CAPS is standard coding syntax for constants.
16:22<@planetmaker>KittenKoder: what is missing?
16:22<KittenKoder>Has been for decades to.
16:23<andythenorth>so it seems :)
16:23<KittenKoder>planetmaker, mostly examples and more in depth explanations.
16:23<andythenorth>so everything in caps is a constant?
16:24<KittenKoder>Typically, yes.
16:24<@planetmaker>well... examples are the existing projects ;-)
16:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth: should be, yes
16:24<andythenorth>that helps
16:24<KittenKoder>I saw those. ;) But they don't show everything yet. :p
16:24<andythenorth>but constants that have parameters?
16:24<andythenorth>I've never run across that before :O
16:24<andythenorth>it's a new way of coding for me
16:24<KittenKoder>I have been spoiled with Java .... Sun had a VERY comprehensive example set from the start.
16:24<@planetmaker>KittenKoder: well... always free to ask. And documentation patches are warmly welcome, too
16:25<@planetmaker>or elaborately commented example grfs.
16:25<@Alberth>andythenorth: no #define with parameters in a previous FIRS ?
16:25<KittenKoder>Constants are also "pointers" ... to functions, callbacks, etc. .... usually for low level ones when using a high level language like NML.
16:25<andythenorth>Alberth: no
16:25<andythenorth>all just strings
16:26<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you had already many #define THIS_IND_ID F0
16:26<KittenKoder>planetmaker, if it will help, I can submit the source and stuff for my maglev track, that may be a good example for some things.
16:26<@planetmaker>a lot
16:26<KittenKoder>I would just have to archive it.
16:26<andythenorth>planetmaker: that's just defining the constant value though?
16:26<@planetmaker>well, yes?
16:27<@planetmaker>ah, you mean macros...
16:27<@planetmaker>well, there might be some. Not sure
16:27<andythenorth>this looks like a function call with params to me
16:27<KittenKoder>There are some macros in NML.
16:27<@planetmaker>in NML for sure
16:27<@planetmaker>but what andy just quoted is a cpp macro which expands to NML ;-)
16:28<@planetmaker>KittenKoder: did you look at the (very few) examples in the example folder of NML?
16:28<andythenorth>so macros take params?
16:28<@planetmaker>I think it has already a railtype example... but might be very new
16:28<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, they can
16:29<KittenKoder>planetmaker, when I am talking examples, I'm talking more like helpdoc explanations using some "real world" language, like for parameters. So one doesn't have to learn NFO first. ;)
16:29<andythenorth>and this returns the ID for the arable farm? THIS_ID(arable_farm)
16:29<andythenorth>equivalent to calling ?
16:29<@planetmaker>well, as said: amendments etc to the docs are welcome :-)
16:29<KittenKoder>It's just a recommendation though ... not that I'm saying "NML help docs suck".
16:29<@planetmaker>It's not many people who write on it...
16:30<@planetmaker>and things are clear when one has done them a few times...
16:30<@planetmaker>so especially this outside view, help and amendments are welcome
16:30<@planetmaker>I guess there's at most two people who write in NML longer than myself ;-)
16:30<KittenKoder>Help docs are pain to write.
16:30<andythenorth>but this - THIS_ID(town_distance) - is equivalent to calling self.get_town_distance()
16:30<@planetmaker>they are :-P
16:31<KittenKoder>I was never good at it, I even suck at commenting my source code.
16:31*andythenorth is baffled :P
16:31<@planetmaker>andythenorth: it's a shorthand to make the identifier name unique by prepending it with THIS_ID. It's a macro defined in each industry
16:31<@Alberth>KittenKoder: the whole trouble with these technical documents is that the people writing them are too deep into the matter to be able to explain it clearly to a new user, they don't see what concepts are new, anymore
16:31<@planetmaker>at the very top
16:31<andythenorth>oh so THIS_ID gives the context?
16:31<@planetmaker>per-industry. Yes
16:31<KittenKoder>Alberth, that's my problem to, putting it into more "real world" language is hard.
16:32<@planetmaker>look at the header of an arbitrary industry file. It's define there
16:32<@Alberth>KittenKoder: usually I drop down to concrete examples, like 'here I expect this and this to be explained'
16:33<@planetmaker>#define THIS_ID(...) industryname ## __VA_ARGS__
16:33<KittenKoder>I usually learn by the examples more than the docs myself.
16:33<@Alberth>but that needs a very careful study of the docs
16:33<@planetmaker>which then expands in later usages of THIS_ID(something) to industrynamesomething
16:33<andythenorth>planetmaker: so this maps exactly to a varact 2 chain?
16:34<andythenorth>working from the bottom up, last parameter is next check?
16:34<@planetmaker>you read the switch chains upwards, yes
16:34<andythenorth>it starts to make sense
16:34<@planetmaker>switch = action2 basically
16:34<@planetmaker>whatever action2 you want, varaction, randomaction, normal action ;-)
16:34<andythenorth>like nfo, the chance of 'just' getting it is minimal :P
16:35<Rubidium>unless "it" refers to a headache
16:35<@planetmaker>any programming language with functions works that way...
16:35<@planetmaker>first declare, then use
16:35<KittenKoder>Not any. ;)
16:35<@planetmaker>except those languages where it doesn't matter
16:36<andythenorth>except those where it doesn't matter :P
16:36<@planetmaker>any, every - all the same in my mothertongue ;-)
16:36<KittenKoder>Python (technically scripting but it counts), Java, and PHP (again scripting but meh) you do not have to declare first.
16:36<Rubidium>Java uses methods! ;)
16:36<KittenKoder>I'm sure there are a few others.
16:37<KittenKoder>Hmm .... yeah, it is different, but methods are really just isolated functions, if you think about it. :p
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16:38<Rubidium>but, lets rephrase ;)
16:38<@planetmaker>andythenorth: wrt the callbacks: they can be defined directly from the graphics switch (=action3) of an industry
16:39<KittenKoder>It depends on the compiler and how that works.
16:39<Rubidium>any programming language with functions that is compiled in a single pass
16:39<KittenKoder>That works. :p
16:39*andythenorth can't remember what Flash does, but that's probably a Good Thing
16:40<andythenorth>or JS
16:40<KittenKoder>A very good thing.
16:40<andythenorth>it will do same as Flash - I think functions have to be declared first in both
16:40<@Alberth>a *language* defining the number of compiler passes? weird
16:40<Rubidium>s/is/can be/?
16:41<KittenKoder>Well, the compiler defines the language ... but meh ...
16:41<KittenKoder>Actually ... I'm wrong.
16:41<+glx>O'Caml was fun
16:42<KittenKoder>The compiler no longer defines the language strictly, many can handle more than one now.
16:42<@Alberth>Rubidium: that would work, but it also limits the set of languages to just Pascal, I think :)
16:42<KittenKoder>>.< Pascal.
16:42<@Alberth>KittenKoder: and often there are several different compiler implementations for the same language
16:42<KittenKoder>It's gotten a lot more complex than a=b.
16:43<KittenKoder>Or better ... a == b
16:43<andythenorth>Pascal is the only language I have been taught
16:43<andythenorth>I skipped the lecture :P
16:43<andythenorth>I did the code test
16:43<KittenKoder>I never liked Pascal's syntax.
16:43<andythenorth>I used 'top down programming' apparently that is bad :P
16:44<KittenKoder>Top down is old skool!
16:44<@Alberth>andythenorth: with pascal that's good, too bad you have to write your program bottom-up then :)
16:44<andythenorth>or maybe I failed to use top down
16:44<andythenorth>anyway, whatever I did was bad :P
16:44<@Alberth>(as in 'main' is at the bottom of the program)
16:45<KittenKoder>Python doers that to .... annoys me.
16:45<KittenKoder>>.> Odd typo.
16:45<KittenKoder>Sounds like a beer name in my head.
16:45<andythenorth>I seee
16:46<andythenorth>top down is like defining all your interfaces as stubs
16:46<andythenorth>then fleshing the detail code out later
16:46<andythenorth>that's not going to work :P
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16:46<KittenKoder>Doers .... like Coors only more active.
16:47<andythenorth>top down design isn't design
16:47<andythenorth>it's implementation
16:47<andythenorth>you'd need a design before you could do it
16:47<KittenKoder>I should check the HEQ thread.
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16:48<@Alberth>top-down design is also a way to reach a solution, but it is VERY difficult if not impossible for anything non-trivial
16:48<Rubidium>isn't design almost always top-down?
16:49<@Alberth>normally we jump at random between top-down, bottom-up, and aspects (and more probably)
16:49<Rubidium>as in: first ou need to know what the goal of the code is, before you can think about details and how it should work algorithmically
16:50<Rubidium>only question is whether you do a breadth of depth first search for the solution
16:50<@Alberth>theoretically yes, practically you take details into account in the global goal already
16:50<KittenKoder>I love how HEQ looks in game.
16:50*andythenorth has always mixed them
16:50<KittenKoder>The pixel artist did awesome and the set is just nice to have.
16:50<andythenorth>top down *versus* bottom up seems a false distinction
16:51<KittenKoder>I do spider web coding.
16:51<@Alberth>KittenKoder: andythenorth is the pixel painter :)
16:51<andythenorth>too many websites are made top down, the results can suck
16:51<KittenKoder>andythenorth, excellent work on HEWQ.
16:51<andythenorth>I can't think of a game I ever designed top down
16:51<andythenorth>most flash games there's some crux point of interaction that has to be solved
16:51<andythenorth>so you start there
16:52<andythenorth>and worry about the rest later
16:52<@Alberth>andythenorth: top-down and bottom-up are just theoretical notions, you never do them in a pure form in reality
16:52<KittenKoder>Spider web coding is the only coding. /sagenod
16:52<andythenorth>Alberth comp sci lecturers seem to think you do them in pure form :P
16:52<KittenKoder>All others are obsolete!
16:52<Rubidium>Alberth: I think that modelling it like a graph search algorithm would be better
16:52<KittenKoder>Obsolete I tells yah!
16:53<@Alberth>Rubidium: with nested graphs, could work
16:54<Rubidium>either you think a lot about stuff when going down, i.e. do something breadth first searchy, or you dive into a problem, fix it and fix the next closely related problem
16:54<@Alberth>andythenorth: everybody uses models to simplify the world, and obviously, if they know how to code, they would not be a teacher ;)
16:55<Rubidium>hmm, maybe it's more like pre-order and in-order traversal of the graph
16:55<@Alberth>Rubidium: and even incremental design/implementation can be done in different ways :)
16:55<Rubidium>so the complete solution with all the steps would be the graph (hopefully somewhat tree-ish)
16:55<andythenorth>is there any significance to the nodes? (or what do they represent?)
16:55<andythenorth>do you start at the node with most links?
16:55<andythenorth>start at the edge of the graph?
16:56<andythenorth>do you even know the graph until you've done the design
16:56<Rubidium>andythenorth: I'd see the nodes as kind of actions/decisions, and no you don't know the graph till you're done
16:56<@Alberth>probably not until you have finished the implementation :)
16:56<andythenorth>the graph model is as good as any other
16:56<@Alberth>good night all
16:57*andythenorth has just spent three months prototyping a web app so real developers can code it
16:57<andythenorth>it's basically a graph search, and the skein or plane it's on is an ontology
16:57<Rubidium>so the top node is the "what are you going to make"; the closer to the top node the more abstract it is
16:57<Rubidium>and further away gets more to the actual coding
16:57<andythenorth>in my case it was more like "what are you going to make" is 100% of the graph
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16:58<andythenorth>the entities and relationships were the graph
16:58<andythenorth>and throwing away lots of the graph is how we got a workable design
16:58<andythenorth>but the other way of thinking is interesting
16:58<andythenorth>KittenKoder: any specific HEQS requests?
16:59<andythenorth>more is planned - later
16:59<KittenKoder>Some earlier ones would be nice.
16:59<andythenorth>earlier trucks? trams?
16:59<KittenKoder>I noticed most don't appear prior to 1970's.
16:59<KittenKoder>I like the detail in them. :p
17:00<KittenKoder>I really like the logging truck to.
17:00<andythenorth>Rubidium: elephants don't help with design :P
17:00<KittenKoder>The way it actually folds up when empty.
17:00<Rubidium>for pulling logs and the likes through the woods in some century long ago
17:00<KittenKoder>I set up forest road routes just to use that one.
17:02<KittenKoder>You know, those car semis .....
17:02<KittenKoder>That would be cool for engineering and farming supplies.
17:03<KittenKoder>There are some with flatbeds for tractors, I have seen, that "fold" like the logging trucks.
17:03<KittenKoder>I have an elevated freeway and main strip just out my window ... so I see all sorts of stuff through here.
17:05<andythenorth>Rubidium: the graph search model is really appealing
17:05<andythenorth>you should write a paper :P
17:05<andythenorth>query: could you start at any node, in theory?
17:06<Rubidium>not really
17:07<Rubidium>you'd have to start at the top node: the idea for the thing you're making
17:07<andythenorth>you'd have to start at one which is known to be true
17:07<Rubidium>without that, there's nothing
17:07<Rubidium>but with pre-order traversal the next step would be actually doing something real
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17:08<andythenorth>what if the idea is, I have a cool IO algorithm, what can we do with it?
17:08<andythenorth>or something
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17:13<Rubidium>say that is the root? ;)
17:13<andythenorth>somehow we get code written :P
17:14<andythenorth>sometimes we even make money from it
17:14<andythenorth>so there must be some process happening
17:14<andythenorth>and the top-down and bottom-down models don't look realistic
17:14<andythenorth>omg - realism :P
17:14<andythenorth>models != reality
17:14<Rubidium>should we make 'realism' the godwin event of this thread?
17:15*andythenorth -> bed in that case
17:16<andythenorth>KittenKoder: I need to do a truck set separate to HEQS
17:16<KittenKoder>That would be cool to.
17:16<andythenorth>but that is blocked by a few things
17:16<andythenorth>adding trailers to road vehicles would be useful in game
17:16<andythenorth>I need a collaborator or two
17:16<andythenorth>I need time
17:17<andythenorth>and I need inclination
17:17<andythenorth>I have 4 sets already
17:17<KittenKoder>Meh, just make them like you did the logging ones.
17:17<KittenKoder>Start off small, get longer as you go. :p
17:17<andythenorth>could do that
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17:17<@planetmaker>FIRS is already much bigger :-P
17:17<andythenorth>mostly I have enough sets to do though :)
17:18<KittenKoder>Seems to be how everyone does it.
17:18<andythenorth>FIRS was always going to be enormous
17:18<andythenorth>it was predicted to take 18 mths
17:18<andythenorth>it's nearly 3
17:18<KittenKoder>Only 3 so far?
17:18<KittenKoder>I like FIRS to.
17:18<Hyronymus>That's rather quick tbh
17:19<andythenorth>I'm quite obsessive :P
17:19<andythenorth>and I've had help
17:19<KittenKoder>Gives me more reason to make complex train lines.
17:19<KittenKoder>... as well as more realistic and complex stations.
17:19<andythenorth>FIRS 0.7 will rock compared to previous versions
17:19<andythenorth>it's more polished
17:19<@planetmaker>Let's hope that
17:19<andythenorth>lots of small changes
17:19<Hyronymus>more progress on the Dutch Trainset Wiki:
17:19<andythenorth>well maybe 0.7.1 will rock
17:19<Hyronymus>added some buttons from our original page
17:19<andythenorth>maybe 0.7 is the 'oops' edition with lots of bugs
17:20<KittenKoder>Need variable economic system though, but I don't know it that's possible with a NewGRF.
17:20<KittenKoder>Such as one year something being in higher demand than another.
17:21<andythenorth>that's a whole other thing
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17:21<andythenorth>you'd need to be able to manipulate cargo payment rates, can't do that
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17:21<andythenorth> can within the spec, but it's way buggy
17:21<KittenKoder>Yeah, I thought it would be a OTTD thing, that's why I submitted in the OTTD recommendation section of the forum.
17:21<andythenorth>I recall wrong
17:22<KittenKoder>Well, if there's a way to do that, it would be fun to play.
17:22<andythenorth>custom profit calculation callback at stations
17:22<andythenorth>but it requires persistent storage to be any use
17:22<andythenorth>and there isn't persistent storage
17:23<@planetmaker>yet :-P
17:23<KittenKoder>If they implemented it into OTTD itself, with an advanced setting, it would probably make more sense anyway.
17:24<andythenorth>YACD would be capable of doing it
17:24<KittenKoder>Then it could be done with any vector without the NewGRF being coded differently.
17:24<andythenorth>extend YACD to take account of longitudinal supply / demand
17:24<@planetmaker>vectors are not FIRS ;-)
17:24<KittenKoder>I'm still not great with words. :p
17:25<KittenKoder>Industry sets ....
17:25<KittenKoder>What ARE vectors then? In OTTD ...
17:25<andythenorth>they're not an entity
17:25<andythenorth>it's just the name of a set of newgrfs
17:25<KittenKoder>Okay, I newbed ....
17:26*andythenorth ponders how well YACD might work with supply demand
17:26<andythenorth>the problem is that changing supply / demand disrupts routes
17:26<andythenorth>otoh...I've been trying to play with big mixed trains
17:26<KittenKoder>Thus why I would love to play with that feature.
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17:27<andythenorth>it's painful without some kind of automatic dispatcher / consist control
17:27<andythenorth>supply/demand worked in railroad tycoon, but only with automatic consists
17:27<KittenKoder>I just think it would be fun, so I recommended it .... :p
17:28<KittenKoder>I never liked Railroad Tycoon.
17:28<KittenKoder>Mostly for the track stye.
17:28<andythenorth>YACD models most of a supply / demand economy, it just misses spot prices for cargo
17:29*andythenorth -> bed time
17:29<@planetmaker>g'night andythenorth
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17:42<KittenKoder>I hate making third lanes on my rails. >.<
17:47<Rubidium>I'd almost say that your map is too big if you need three tracks next to eachother, but then I remember my old 128x128 savegame
17:48<Rubidium>which has some 4 track bits to cope with the traffic
17:49<KittenKoder>I just wind up putting too many industrial routes through one section.
17:50<@planetmaker> <-- KittenKoder ;-)
17:50<@planetmaker>though... it needs updating with our other record games.
17:51<KittenKoder>>.< Frell that!
17:51<@planetmaker>(at least records for us - in MP that is sometimes more difficult than in MP)
17:51<KittenKoder>My stations are rarely bigger than four lanes.
17:51<Rubidium> ;)
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17:52<KittenKoder>Even when I was doing 500 train games ... but then, 128x128 with 500 trains would need a track to each train.
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17:54<KittenKoder>In this instance I have a machine shop and lime kiln right next to each other.
17:54<KittenKoder>So I put the recieving station between them.
17:55<@planetmaker> <-- and this is... a good cpu tester savegame
17:55<KittenKoder>... and both their sources are from the same general area.
17:55<@planetmaker>with quite a bit of houses and trains ;-)
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17:55<KittenKoder>Now I play using only about 50 trains.
17:56<KittenKoder>Aaah, so city expansion does drain CPU.
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17:58<@planetmaker>depends a bit on the houses, whether they're animated or not
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18:20<KittenKoder>The CG1 is cute, but the horn is grating.
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22:21<pjpe>are there any plans for the future with openttd
22:22<pjpe>like what's the next big step
22:22<KittenKoder>Diagonal bridges!
22:22<KittenKoder>Actually, I don't know, just a bit bored.
22:24<pjpe>maybe they can make go to far end of station actually go to the far end of the station
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22:26<KittenKoder>Multiple trains per station track ... but I think that's a bit hard to code.
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---Logclosed Sat Aug 13 00:00:26 2011