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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-14

---Logopened Sun Aug 14 00:00:27 2011
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03:14<Uncle>hello guys, i posted this image few hours ago and nobody responded to me. what do you think about this station? https://p.twimg.com/AWxHRg6CQAMU2NV.png
03:14<Uncle>trains can use all 4 platforms in both directions :)
03:15<Uncle>it probably is not so special is it :D
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03:18<KittenKoder>So it's a low speed version of the standard drive through.
03:21<Uncle>yea
03:21<KittenKoder>LOL
03:21<Uncle>i just wanted to make it more realistic
03:22<Uncle>in real world, trains use all platforms in both directions
03:22<KittenKoder>Realism in something with square angles is impossible. ;)
03:22<KittenKoder>Also, real stations have control booths to prevent trains from crashing. :p
03:22<KittenKoder>Or bunching up.
03:23<Uncle>heh, right :)
03:23<KittenKoder>A station in TT is an iconic representation of one. OpenTTD has added some changes that make it possible to make it a little more realistic, but it's still iconic.
03:24<KittenKoder>The tracks, doubly so.
03:24<KittenKoder>Three lanes for real rails are not 3 miles wide, for instance.
03:25<Uncle>also it usually does not take days (or months) to move from one place to another :D
03:25<KittenKoder>Gah, as cool as my industrial complex looked, I'm playing too far into the future and will have to tram it all up.
03:26<KittenKoder>Or for a bus to travel 10 days to go one city block. :p
03:26<KittenKoder>I made a super realistic looking train station once ... well as realistic as I could ... once I got more than 10 trains there ... it just didn't work
03:27<KittenKoder>On test layouts, they can work, but when you put in cargo transport, waiting times, etc. it falls apart fast.
03:28<Uncle>anyway, this type of station would be useful if you would use only one main track in both direction. otherwise, if you use 2 tracks, it really slows down the trains :D
03:28<KittenKoder>Also, because of the squareness of the tracks, a diagonal slash through a few lanes is technically more realistic than the swervey ones. Even though the swervey ones look better to the eye.
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03:29<KittenKoder>Busy rails will need two tracks, super busy ones will need three, since you can't keep each train window open to control the prioritizations.
03:30<KittenKoder>However, you are mastering PBS ... that's more realistic than block signals. :p
03:31<KittenKoder>Oh, I'm always in a bad mood, FYI
03:36<Uncle>btw, is anyone here a railfan like me?
03:36<KittenKoder>What do you mean?
03:36<Uncle>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railfan
03:37<Uncle>i love photographing trains
03:37<KittenKoder>Probably not THAT avid, but most people get into TT because of a love for rail modeling.
03:38<KittenKoder>Many of the train set NewGRF devs are huge real train fans, and some are in here.
03:38<KittenKoder>I'm a sci-fi fan who just like train models.
03:39-!-Coke [~peter@h-135-45.a254.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
03:39<Coke>Hi guys! I'm playing witha newgrf trainset, it seems to override the old. Is it possible to "add" instead of "replace" ?
03:39<Coke>So I can play with 4-5 different trainsets at the same time?
03:40<KittenKoder>First, check you advanced settings.
03:40<Coke>yes
03:40<KittenKoder>One sec, I forgot which it was.
03:40<Coke>yes please.
03:41<KittenKoder>Make sure "Enable multiple NewGRF engine sets" is on, under the vehicles section.
03:41<Coke>it is on
03:41<Coke>hmm
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03:41<Coke>i guess it doesnt include the default?
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03:41<KittenKoder>However, some GRF will override the default ones anyway, so it doesn't work all the time.
03:42<Coke>ok
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03:42<Coke>too bad.
03:42<Coke>so i have two more questions.
03:42<Coke>i keep getting the popup window for new tech
03:42<Coke>ive tried finding a setting to turn it off, but is unable to
03:43<KittenKoder>Aha, that setting use to elude me a lot.
03:43<KittenKoder>Under messages, while playing, the newspaper looking icon, Message Settings.
03:44<pjpe>how can i get the game to stop asking me if i want to try out a new vehicle ahead of time
03:44<pjpe>always through the game
03:44<Coke>KittenKoder: so no option in the advanced settings?
03:44<pjpe>annoying popup
03:44<KittenKoder>I forgot where that setting is.
03:44<pjpe>i never want to try it
03:44<pjpe>i hate you dialog window
03:44<Coke>pjpe: yeah thats what we're discussing now
03:44<KittenKoder>Coke, you have to start a game first, so yeah, as for the "try out new tech" ... that one I don't remember.
03:45<Coke>pjpe: it's annoying as hell and so far i havent clicked Yes even once :)
03:46<Coke>One final question...
03:46<Coke>Are there any settings/grf's to make the signals show their state and direction more clearly?
03:46<Coke>In track-dense areas with many of them I often put one in the wrong direction by mistake
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03:47<KittenKoder>There are different signal graphics available, I like the North American ones myself, they are clear to me.
03:47<Coke>KittenKoder: ah.
03:47<Coke>what's it called?
03:47<KittenKoder>There's a German set and a few other to, the German set I think is too noisy.
03:48<Coke>whats the north american called? checking online content now
03:48<KittenKoder>Combined North American Signals.
03:48<KittenKoder>Sorry, was looking it up.
03:49<Coke>ok, checking it out now
03:49<Coke>hm. weird, i find that less informative
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03:50<Coke>the path signal looks exactly like the block signal from behind
03:50<KittenKoder>Matter of taste.
03:50<KittenKoder>Just look for the others and try different ones, eventually you may find one you like.
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03:52<Coke>KittenKoder: ideally, it would have some meta graphics like an arrow on the rail for direction and the color could be red/green
03:52<Coke>i might look into making my own grf at some point, just briefly looked at the documentation for it
03:52<KittenKoder>NML makes it easy.
03:56<Coke>i have antoher question now too
03:56<Coke>if i load my swedish train set, anybody connecting to my server needs that grf too
03:57<KittenKoder>2026 .... normally I stop playing after 2020 out of boredom but I wanted to use my new maglev tracks .... so I set the town growth speed to fast ... this is interesting.
03:57<Coke>(since it changes graphics and vehicle stats) right?
03:57<KittenKoder>Yes
03:57<Coke>what if I download bigGUI (which i have)
03:57<Coke>does that require any other connections to have it as well?
03:57<KittenKoder>That shouldn't make a difference.
03:58<Coke>so i write nml, use grfmaker and thats it?
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03:59<KittenKoder>You need to use command line stuff a little more.
03:59<Wolf01>'mornink
03:59<KittenKoder>NML is it's own language that gets converted to nfo .... but that can all be done behind the scenes.
04:00<KittenKoder>So you write the NML then "nmlc <filename>" and wind up with a GRF if all the files are in the right spots.
04:00<Coke>oh i see now. nml is a compiler/decompiler
04:00<Coke>nice. it's written in python :)
04:01<KittenKoder>It's in constant development to, they are working hard to improve it. Though it can't handle everything, it can do a lot.
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04:04<@Terkhen>good morning
04:05<KittenKoder>hihi
04:05<Coke>Any good starters for using nml?
04:05<pjpe>well that ain't right
04:05<pjpe>you broke the order
04:05<KittenKoder>Check the examples.
04:06<pjpe>that guy says moin first every day
04:06<Coke>right. thanks
04:06<pjpe>and then you say good morning
04:06<@Terkhen>to my knowledge there is no step by step tutorial of nml
04:06<@Terkhen>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/index.html <--- check the docs
04:06<@Terkhen>and the examples
04:07<@Terkhen>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ <-- some projects here use NML too and the code is available under GPL, they might be useful too
04:08<@Terkhen>pjpe: I always wake up at this hour so... not my fault ;)
04:08<pjpe>now my whole day is screwed up
04:08<@Terkhen>people usually have different habits on sunday
04:08<@Terkhen>like... sleeping more
04:08*KittenKoder is resisting going all maglev .... but frowns as favorite rail train reliability falls.
04:10<@Terkhen>IIRC maglev does not affect reliability
04:10<KittenKoder>Playing too far into the future does.
04:11<@Terkhen>since I usually play alone and without breakdowns I tend to ignore reliability :P
04:11<KittenKoder>Favorite rail trains are the TGV.
04:11<KittenKoder>They are pretty. :(
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04:12<KittenKoder>That's the only reason I want to make my sci-fi trian set .... aesthetics .... just pretty trains.
04:12<KittenKoder>Eyecandy trains. :p
04:13<@Terkhen>are you planning to just replace default trains name/sprite or to make completely different ones?
04:13<KittenKoder>Different ones.
04:15<KittenKoder>Using other train stats for the eras so they aren't over powered to.
04:16<KittenKoder>Though with a low degradation in reliability, if I can, on most.
04:18<KittenKoder>I like playing with breakdowns enabled, but I don't like having to replace my favorite trains with something better all the time .... I know, a paradoxical stance ... but meh.
04:19<KittenKoder>You know, after watching the SM4 ... it just doesn't look cool to me.
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04:35<Coke>Should one use DOS or windows palette for sprites?
04:37<KittenKoder>Windows, if you're making new ones.
04:41<@Terkhen>DOS has more colours, and with Action14 you can let OpenTTD know automatically which palette to use
04:42<frosch123>defintely dos
04:42<frosch123>there is no reason to use windows
04:42<KittenKoder>Everyone else seems to use Windows though.
04:42<frosch123>windows is historically used
04:42<KittenKoder>Perhaps it's just an old habit for many?
04:43<frosch123>you can argue that it does not matter, but there are no advantages for windows palette, only small ones for dos
04:43<pjpe>why would dos have a colour advantage over windows
04:43<KittenKoder>Windows has reserved colors.
04:43<KittenKoder>Which are no longer needed by Windows ... really.
04:44<frosch123>pipe: please discuss this only in the scope of newgrfs
04:44<frosch123>this is not about operating systems at all
04:44<KittenKoder>I think he was, frosch123
04:45<frosch123>you can just call them palette A und B, there is no relation to any operating system (only historically)
04:45<KittenKoder>The Windows palette was designed because the Windows GUI back in the 8bpp days used a small section of the palette for the GUI itself, thus the programs could not change them as they were OS controled.
04:46<frosch123>well, just that the porters somehow messed the palette completely up for no known reason :)
04:47<KittenKoder>That part I know nothing of. :p
04:47<Coke>Hm, I was under the impression that nmlc could be used to get data from a newgrf also?
04:47<KittenKoder>Nope.
04:47<KittenKoder>GRF2HTML can do that though.
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04:49<Coke>KittenKoder: where are the examples you talked about earlier?
04:50<@Terkhen>examples folder in a nml checkout
04:50<KittenKoder>Yeah.
04:53<Coke>hm. its not in the zipfile?
04:53<KittenKoder>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/file/8a05b032111b/examples
04:53<@Terkhen>if you are using the windows zipfile then it is not included
04:53<KittenKoder>I thought it was.
04:54<@Terkhen>maybe it should
04:54<KittenKoder>Aaah ... I use tars.
04:55<@Terkhen>yes, the windows zip is different; it is not a tarball but a standalone nmlc.exe that does not require python, pil, ply and so on (I suppose they are included into it somehow)
04:55<Coke>I think i have the tar too
04:55<Coke>thats what I have
04:55<@Terkhen>Coke: of what nml version?
04:55<Coke>but its a zip
04:55<@Terkhen>does it include a nmlc.exe file?
04:55<Coke>no, im on linux
04:55<@Terkhen>then you are using a tarball
04:55<@Terkhen>I'd recommend using a nml checkout though, nml changes fast
04:55<Coke>well, there's no examples dir in it
04:56<KittenKoder>Well, Linux can use zips to, but installing with an exe would just be a waste.
04:56<@Terkhen>you still did not answer my "which version" question
04:56<@Terkhen>examples are relatively recent IIRC
04:56<Coke>cloning now
04:56<KittenKoder>Coke, you could get the archive from here: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/file/8a05b032111b
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04:57<@Terkhen>the nml repository has a "nmlc", if you create a symbolic link to it the only thing you need to do to update nml is hg pull -u :)
04:57<Coke>r1612 (8a05b032111b)
04:57<Coke>Library versions encountered:
04:57<Coke>PIL: 1.1.7
04:57<Coke>PLY: 3.4
04:57<Coke>is that about right from the repos?
04:57<KittenKoder>Then you'll have all the nml .... as long as you have the dependencies installed already.
04:57<@Terkhen>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository
04:59<KittenKoder>Hey! There's an example file there I hadn't noticed.
04:59<KittenKoder>>.<
04:59<Coke>ok so i see 4 versions of the train
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05:00<Coke>is one for being rear?
05:00<@Terkhen>KittenKoder: as I said, nml development moves quite fast :P
05:00<@Terkhen>Coke: you see them where?
05:00<KittenKoder>^_^ It's fun trying to keep up.
05:00<Coke>the train png
05:00<Coke>in the example
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05:01<@Terkhen>changes to nml are announced at #openttdcoop.devzone
05:01<Coke>its a huge png with tiles in it
05:01<@Terkhen>development talks also take place there
05:01<Coke>im guessing the coordinates are specified for each sprite
05:01<@Terkhen>Coke: yes
05:01<Coke>but im wondering why there are four sets of the train
05:01<Coke>one has normal lights and one has the rear lights lit
05:01<Coke>i get that... but then there are two more w/o any lights
05:02<@Terkhen>probably animation
05:02<@Terkhen>you switch between different sprites, the result is that the lights blink
05:02<Coke>hm. looks like one has a fin on the back
05:02<@Terkhen>how are the sprites used is explained inside the nml file anyways
05:03<Coke>can I get hold of the original openttd graphics somehow?
05:03<Coke>Terkhen: yeah.
05:03<Coke>i'm just going to view examples and in game data until i get it i guess
05:03<@Terkhen>depends on what you mean with original openttd graphics
05:03<@Terkhen>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx
05:04<KittenKoder>The original-original graphics you have to buy the original game.
05:04<Coke>no, i mean the ones used by default in openttd
05:04<Coke>ah, opengfx yeah
05:12<@Terkhen>the train example looks does some advanced stuff, you might want to look at the road vehicle example first
05:14<Coke>yeah
05:15<KittenKoder>Train example is good for parameters though.
05:16<Coke>im just changing some graphics
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05:16<Coke>im looking for the nml in opengfx that defines the original signals
05:16<KittenKoder>You won't find one.
05:17<KittenKoder>That was done with pure nfo.
05:17<@Terkhen>opengfx is not in nml, it uses very simple nfo (it just defines base sprites)
05:17<Coke>ok
05:17<Coke>but i guess the preferred new method is to use nml even for simpler stuff?
05:18<@Terkhen>the preference of what to use is left to the coder
05:18<@Terkhen>but nml is simpler :P
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05:18<@Terkhen>I don't know how to replace default sprites with nml
05:18<@Terkhen>neither with nfo :P
05:20<KittenKoder>The use between nfo and nml in new stuff is about even from what I've seen, though a lot are moving over to nml, nfo requires a lot more work.
05:21<KittenKoder>To replace default sprites ... hmm .... you need to know the default IDs first
05:21<KittenKoder>For either one.
05:22<KittenKoder>NewGRF isn't really as simple as saying "here, use this instead" anymore.
05:22<Coke>Im looking in opengfx for the generic signals
05:23<KittenKoder>It's in the huge image file with all the tracks.
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05:28*KittenKoder ponders adding Mad Max like trains to the sci-fi set.
05:29<KittenKoder>Pure eye candy.
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05:36<Coke>KittenKoder: looks like each signal is built of a template and only specifying a png file
05:36<Coke>one for each type of signal
05:38<KittenKoder>No idea what you are looking at.
05:38<KittenKoder>Serious flaw with HEQ after 2020.
05:39<KittenKoder>Realiabilities on the mining ones fall too much.
05:48<Coke>KittenKoder: opengfx
05:48<Coke>the nfo
05:48<Coke>anyway, im trying to do this in nml
05:49<KittenKoder>I don't know about NFO.
05:50<@Alberth>both NFO and NML source tends to use a template language to reduce the amount of text (often the c pre-processor)
05:52<Coke>hm, the examples all define new things
05:53<KittenKoder>For NML?
05:53<KittenKoder>The examples make use of the templating a lot actually.
05:54<KittenKoder>The sprites are really all template to.
05:56<@Alberth>KittenKoder: it means there is still a lot of room for improving NML ;)
05:56<KittenKoder>I like the style it has actually.
05:58<Coke>Im simply looking to replace the graphics of the existing signals
05:58<KittenKoder>A few more features, particularly stations, would be awesome, and better organized documentation would be all I would like to see.
05:59<@Terkhen>Coke: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#block-replacement
05:59<KittenKoder>Coke, it's never as simple as it sounds. ;)
05:59<@Alberth>KittenKoder: NFO is a very large language, it takes time to support everything that is possible. Not in the last place because NFO is a moving target
06:00<@Alberth>or better phrased 'expanding target' :)
06:01<KittenKoder>I know, thus why I'm not griping about it, just saying it'd be nice. ^_^
06:01<KittenKoder>It seems NFO may soon allow coders to completely rewrite anything in OTTD without having to make unofficial versions.
06:02<KittenKoder>Sheesh, the Bombadier HSML maglev has horrible acceleration.
06:03<Coke>Terkhen: yes, Im trying to find the ID of the signals
06:04<@planetmaker>indeed :-) - the adv. sprite layouts ate quite a bit of coding time also in nml
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>KittenKoder: 2cc set? they have totally wrong air resistance values
06:04<@planetmaker>but ussing them in nfo is probably a bit painful, too
06:05<@planetmaker>and yes, newgrfs can modify a lot of things. But there's lots which they also cannot do
06:05<@planetmaker>much more than the casual user who hears "newgrf" (=new graphics) may think as it's an api to modify the behaviour of basically every game object
06:05<@planetmaker>but not of the game itself :-)
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06:06<KittenKoder>Eddi|zuHause, no, the HEQ set.
06:07<Coke>Where can one find a complete list of sprite ID's ?
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>KittenKoder: i don't think HEQS has maglevs
06:07<KittenKoder>Oh, erm ... yeah then.
06:07<KittenKoder>LOL
06:07<@planetmaker>Coke: when you use newgrfs: nowhere
06:07<KittenKoder>Sorry, I completely forgot I mentioned the maglev.
06:07<@Terkhen>Coke: reread the link I gave you :)
06:07<@planetmaker>otherwise, a complete one: either in openttd source, or get the source of opengfx
06:08<@planetmaker>it's probably as documented as openttd is itself, esp. as it makes somewhat clearer which sprites are climate-specific
06:08<Coke>ah, they had a link to the reference there
06:08<@Terkhen>yes
06:09<Coke>which crashed firefox
06:09-!-DoubleYou [~jkuckartz@60-241-89-135.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
06:09<@Terkhen>it's kind of long
06:09<Coke>no, wait... firefox is humming along using up all of my four 3.6ghz i7 cores
06:09<@planetmaker>is it the sprite overview page, Terkhen?
06:09<@Terkhen>in nml they link to OpenGFX author reference
06:09<@Terkhen>nml documentation*
06:09<@planetmaker>ah
06:10<@planetmaker>I miss(ed) that ;-)
06:10<@planetmaker>imho still easier to look at opengfx sources. it's more detailed
06:10<@Terkhen>Coke: I can open it without problems with a far less powerful processor so I'm blaming firefox (it takes long to load all sprites of course)
06:11<KittenKoder>What link?
06:11<@Terkhen>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#block-replacement
06:11<@Terkhen>and then opengfx author reference
06:11-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6DB31.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
06:11<KittenKoder>Less than a second on mine/
06:11<@planetmaker>but it also loads about 15000 images ;-)
06:12<Coke>Terkhen: yes, firefox is a bit bloatie
06:12<Coke>Terkhen: so, let me see if I undesrtand this correctly.
06:12<@planetmaker>ah, 10k only
06:12<Coke>The block signal has one ID for every direction and state
06:12<KittenKoder>???
06:12<@planetmaker>yup
06:12<KittenKoder>What images?
06:12<Markk>Less than a second here as well, Firefox 6 Windows 7.
06:13<Markk>Firefox is much slower in Ubuntu from what I've noticed.
06:13<KittenKoder>I'm using Ubuntu on this machine.
06:13<@planetmaker>iirc all signals all together are 8*2*6
06:13<@planetmaker>@calc 8*2*6
06:13<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 96
06:13<@planetmaker>sprites
06:13<KittenKoder>It's only a P4 3ghz to.
06:13<@planetmaker>oh. *2. For semaphore vs. light signals
06:13<Coke>So all I ahve to do is put more realsprite lines in there to step from 1275 to 1290, correct?
06:14-!-Scuddles [~notme@cm30.epsilon82.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd
06:14<@planetmaker>for certain definitions of "put more realsprite lines", yes
06:14<MNIM>markk, firefox in ubuntu is getting more and more of a brick
06:14<Coke>planetmaker: yeah, where they are linear
06:14<Coke>in sequence
06:15<Markk>MNIM: Yes, I know.
06:15<MNIM>firsthand experience here.
06:15<frosch123>on my machine opera is the only browser which can handle big grf2html outputs. firefox/iceweasel and epiphany just fail :)
06:15<MNIM>if this keeps up, Im just going to use wine or something. >.<
06:15<Markk>Chrome is really slow and takes about double the time or more to load websites for me in Windows than Firefox.
06:15<@Terkhen>chrome always is faster than firefox for me
06:16<Markk>Terkhen: Windows?
06:16<@Terkhen>yup
06:16<Markk>Weird.
06:16<KittenKoder>Actually, it's Ubuntu that's getting to be a mess these days.
06:16<KittenKoder>I'm not happy with the direction it's going but I'm too lazy to copy everything to a temporary location to get Gentoo on it.
06:16<MNIM>well, that too
06:17<@Terkhen>:)
06:17<MNIM>Im considering changing to mint
06:17<Markk>Same sheit.
06:17<KittenKoder>Mint looks nice, but I don't know what it's like.
06:17<MNIM>mint has at least still some developers with the power of common sense
06:17<MNIM>KittenKoder: basically, mint = ubuntu - bullcrap
06:17<KittenKoder>I do know I like Gentoo because you just get the basics with it.
06:17<MNIM>well, a lot of it at least.
06:18<KittenKoder>Ubuntu has gotten political these days, in deciding what packages they want for the official servers now.
06:18<KittenKoder>I wind up doing most installs by hand anyway.
06:18<EmperorJake>I see I'm not the only one considering swithching away from ubunt
06:18<MNIM>either way, Ubuntu 10.10 still works for the time being.
06:19<MNIM>but Im expecting a moment in time where Ill be forced to upgrade or migrate
06:19<KittenKoder>For me, it barely works now.
06:19<KittenKoder>I've had to tweak the video drivers, and the rest is getting bloated.
06:19<EmperorJake>My ubuntu install is deteriorating from too much mucking around.
06:19<EmperorJake>I get a lot of random crashes and segfaults
06:19<MNIM>same here. mine's pretty much frankenbuntu nowadays.
06:20<Coke>The documentation specifies the realsprite as "[left_x, upper_y, width, height, offset_x, offset_y]", what is offsets used for here?
06:20<MNIM>no random crashes, though
06:20<Coke>x,y and w,h already specifies a rectangle, isnt that enough?
06:20<MNIM>well, apart from those caused by firefox or flash
06:20<Coke>is it an offset for the blitter to use?
06:20<KittenKoder>Having to do it all manually defeats the whole reason I liked Ubuntu in the beginning.
06:20<MNIM>lol, true.
06:20<KittenKoder>Coke, one sec.
06:21-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd
06:21<KittenKoder>At the bottom, it explains it a little: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates
06:21<MNIM>but for me it's mostly changing settings that I really hate about new buntus compared to older 9.xx versions
06:21<MNIM>like the idiot idea to swap around the titlebar buttons, for example.
06:21<MNIM>and then, unity.
06:21<KittenKoder>I had to use the text editor to change too many settings lately.
06:21<MNIM>I saw it, was like 'ugh', and rolled the fuck back as fast as I could.
06:22<KittenKoder>Yet the Gnome applet for changing settings has gotten bigger .... which is rather questionable to say the least.
06:22<@Terkhen>one of the reasons of why I'm using windows (besides laziness) is because I'm tired of all desktop environments :)
06:22<@Terkhen>right now I have a VM with gnome 2, that's what I like
06:23<KittenKoder>I don't like the Windows desktop environment at all.
06:23<@Terkhen>not that stupid gnome 3 thing
06:23<EmperorJake>When I plug in a flash drive, I have to go into gksudo-nautilus to be able to change files on it and I have to unmount it using sudo umount.
06:23<Coke>ah, xrel and yrel are more suitable names
06:23<Coke>KittenKoder: thanks
06:23<KittenKoder>I never did after Win98.
06:23<KittenKoder>You're welcome.
06:23<@Terkhen>windows 7 has a lot of changes, it is bearable :P
06:24<KittenKoder>I don't like that fakey glass look or translucent windows.
06:24<MNIM>KittenKoder, you never used windows 2000?
06:24<EmperorJake>windows xp forever! I still use it on my partition for playing games
06:24<MNIM>seriously, that os was GOD compared to modern oses.
06:25<KittenKoder>... and I'm not going to pay 100 bucks for a pack of themes just to get a nice neat simple and functional one.
06:25<KittenKoder>I didn't like 2K for internal reasons.
06:25<MNIM>lol, I kinda like the eyecandy, but then again, Im more an artist than a computerwiz.
06:26<KittenKoder>Why is it NewStations doesn't use the actual track?
06:26<MNIM>I think that's because it was build before newtracks
06:26<Coke>cool it works
06:26<Coke>Thanks guys
06:27<MNIM>what I really hate about the modern windows windowmanager is that it is so messy!
06:27<MNIM>and no multiple desktops!
06:27<KittenKoder>It's the only city station set I really like, besides the Japanese one, but I think that may have the same problem, I should check.
06:27<frosch123>KittenKoder: stations use the new tracks
06:27<frosch123>just make the station use the default track ground tile, and ottd will make the newrail grf draw it
06:28<KittenKoder>frosch123, not the GRF titled NewStations. ;)
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>KittenKoder: newstations is old
06:28<MNIM>I mean, I got used to my Ctrl+ArrowLeft/right desktop switching and my Ctrl+Alt+Numpad7 window positioning
06:28<KittenKoder>Okay, that does explain it.
06:29<KittenKoder>Multiple desktops would be great if I had multiple monitors.
06:29<KittenKoder>Hmm ... I should buy a second monitor so I can play OTTD and watch movies at the same time.
06:29<frosch123>[12:23] <Coke> ah, xrel and yrel are more suitable names <- you can see xrel and yrel also ingame: http://wiki.openttd.org/NewGRF_Debugging
06:30<@Alberth>KittenKoder: isn't that called 'television' ?
06:30<KittenKoder>You still watch TV?
06:30<MNIM>lol
06:30<KittenKoder>:p
06:30*frosch123 just wanted to ask the same :)
06:30<MNIM>I rarely watch tv on an actual *tv* nowadays,
06:30<KittenKoder>Mine is only for PS2 ... if I ever play it.
06:30*frosch123 has no tv, only internet
06:30<@Alberth>hardly, it's not interesting what they broadcast :p
06:31<MNIM>I just pirate everything and watch it on my pc.
06:31<KittenKoder>I don't know why they even bothered with this new digital TV over the air anyway.
06:31<MNIM>screw commercial channels with their damn add blocks lasting longer than the actual movie/series does
06:31<MNIM>I'm surprised it hasn't even been hacked yet,
06:32<KittenKoder>Super easy, no challenge so the hackers don't care.
06:32<MNIM>I mean *everything* digital gets hacked if it's remotely interesting
06:32<KittenKoder>Any government computer system run by the government .... garbage ... not even a challenge enough for beginners.
06:32<Coke>KittenKoder: the same way all new technology is introduced; people want to make money
06:32<frosch123>MNIM: you mean something like broadcasting a virus via dvb-t ?
06:32<MNIM>lol, that would be entertaining
06:33<frosch123>like the tv could no longer switch channels and only display arte or so :p
06:33<KittenKoder>That could be done .. the boxes and new TVs are actually programmable.
06:33<MNIM>nah, I meant, as in hacking the signal. At least over here, you have to pay for a decoder to decode the digital signal and put it through to your tv
06:33<Coke>KittenKoder: unfortunately, it is very difficult to make money from really great ideas
06:33<MNIM>so it would perhaps be interesting to hack that and make it free
06:34<KittenKoder>It's free over the air anyway.
06:34<KittenKoder>Just .... pointless.
06:34<Coke>KittenKoder: you make more money from selling crap that needs to be constantly upgraded and if you can't control it you lock down the patents and let it die
06:34<MNIM>I think what most companies don't realize nowadays is that analog strategy just doesn't work on digital tech.
06:35<KittenKoder>Not to mention, digital audio-video is still inferior to analog in detail level possibilities. But meh.
06:35<MNIM>for an example, there's some kind of company in the Netherlands right now making adds on TV for a service that lets you build your own holiday photo albums on the internet.
06:35<MNIM>I mean, what the fuck?
06:35<MNIM>how is that even profitable?
06:35<Coke>Why didigtal radio when there is spotify? for instance. yet my tax dollars went into investing in new digital radio for the government
06:36<Coke>MNIM: how is facebook profitable?
06:36<MNIM>people don't go to a site on the internet because they saw a TV add.
06:36<MNIM>they go there because they found it on google.
06:36<Coke>MNIM: clearly you are unfamiliar with the statistical evidence here
06:36<Coke>commercials work
06:36<KittenKoder>Ask a real naval officer who has been there a long time ... digital sonar is crap compared to the older ones.
06:37<MNIM>Commercials work, yes. for rednecks and house moms, maybe. Not for the modern internet generation
06:37<KittenKoder>Correction, commercials DID work.
06:37<MNIM>exactly.
06:37<Coke>I think you might be over estimating the avarage person. They are gullable and to them technology might as well be as magic as religion.
06:37<MNIM>the average person older than thirty? yeah, in most cases
06:37<KittenKoder>They are a failing mode of information now though, primarily because of Google, but mostly because people are too stupid anyway.
06:38<Rubidium>Coke: normal facebook users are not the customer; they are the product that is being sold to other companies
06:38<MNIM>and then there's that second thing.
06:38<Coke>Rubidium: right. what is being sold exactly? people arguing about what cheese goes with what cracker
06:38<KittenKoder>They don't buy based on what they need or what's good, they buy based on what the government tells them now. "Oh, this is USDA approved, it's got to be good for us."
06:38<MNIM>who the fuck would pay a site for making a photo album?
06:38<Coke>KittenKoder: just because younger viewers have switched from broadcast to internet does not mean commercials arent there
06:38<Coke>google makes their profits from those sort of things
06:38<MNIM>two seconds in google will provide you with at least a dozen sites and apps which do it for free.
06:39<MNIM>same audience, I think
06:39<Coke>MNIM: and a quick google search will reveal tht the iphone is indeed not the best phone on the market, not from a technical or practical standpoint
06:39<Coke>yet...
06:39<Coke>Windows is far from the best desktop system today, yet...
06:39<@Alberth>MNIM: afaik they sell phyisical customized photo books
06:39<Rubidium>Coke: the personal information that is entered as well as the connections
06:39<KittenKoder>The ads online are not the same as TV commercials, they are very different. Most effective ones are actually ads placed in video games or website banners now, in video games you don't realize you are seeing an ad, but that billboard showing Coca-Cola was paid for by Coca-Cola.
06:40<Coke>Rubidium: it's insanity in my book
06:40<KittenKoder>Actually, Windows is great for the casual computer user.
06:40<Coke>KittenKoder: I count that as the same category of advertisment as on tv
06:40<Coke>KittenKoder: my point is that ads work, regardless the media
06:40<Rubidium>Coke: all the social media is insanity
06:40<Coke>KittenKoder: a quick search on google reveals free alternatives that work just as good
06:40<Coke>Rubidium: agreed. :)
06:41<MNIM>great for the casual computer user who's prepared to add 200 to his computer acquisition bill and then spend another 10 per month for an AV subscription which may or may not help against malware, yes
06:41<Coke>Someone at worked asked if our company shouldnt have a facebook page.
06:41<Coke>I said "no". They asked "why?", my reply was "because we're not a 18 year old girl trying to show off our piercings to the world"
06:42<MNIM>hahaha
06:42<KittenKoder>Most casual computer users pay other people to operate their computers anyway. ;)
06:42<MNIM>lol
06:42<MNIM>maybe Im just weird.
06:42<Coke>KittenKoder: yeah, I'm just saying it's not as easy as "oh, people google and will find better alternatives for free"
06:42<MNIM>I don't pay for something that's happening on my harddrive.
06:42<@Terkhen>it's fun to see how a casual comments about two monitors turned into two of the most overused chat topics: "linux is awesome" and "facebook is the devil"
06:43<KittenKoder>Meh, Facebook isn't the devil, it's just lame.
06:43<KittenKoder>:p
06:43<MNIM>huh, two monitors?
06:43<@Alberth>Terkhen: you can learn lots of phychology here :)
06:43<KittenKoder>Linux is great ... if you're a coder like most of us here.
06:43<Coke>Facebook is only the devil if it's implied that the devil is severily, mentally handicapped.
06:43<Coke>KittenKoder: my mom use linux
06:43<Coke>All my non-coder friends use linux, mostly ubuntu
06:43<KittenKoder>She has a coder mentality then. :p
06:43<MNIM>muh, even if you're not a coder, like me, but at least mildly intelligent, linux does work
06:43<Rubidium>linux being awesome is just a lie
06:43<Coke>KittenKoder: ha. far from it, she's dumb as a shoe
06:44*Terkhen will change to linux only as soon as he can play every game on it
06:44<MNIM>lol
06:44<KittenKoder>Wait ... Ubuntu?
06:44<KittenKoder>NVM.
06:44<@Terkhen>meanwhile... dual boot
06:44<MNIM>but I guess she has an intelligent son/daughter then
06:44<KittenKoder>Gamers are forced to rely on Windows.
06:44<Coke>KittenKoder: yeah. mostly they switch to linux because they dont want to buy new hardware just to get the latest windows
06:44<MNIM>but yeah, dual boot. :P
06:44<Coke>KittenKoder: "gamers"
06:44<Coke>You mean the snot toddlers?
06:44<KittenKoder>No, gamers.
06:44<Coke>I'm a hardcore gamer, gosh darn it. I spent 20 hours since friday on openttd
06:44<Coke>I probably play 4 hours every day.
06:44<MNIM>People who want to play, I dunno, the sims3 without spending an hour on wine trying to make it work :P
06:45<Coke>Oh. Yeah, I only play good games.
06:45<KittenKoder>Commercial games, the ones most hardcore gamers play, are licensed so they cannot produce Linux versions, which is a small trade off since Linux is still not a huge market for them.
06:45<@Terkhen>if it works at all, new games have a habit of requiring a future wine version
06:45<@Alberth>Coke: I have yet the first gamer that thinks he only plays crap games :)
06:45<Coke>KittenKoder: yeah, snot toddlers who like games to have loads of colors and stuff.
06:45<@Alberth>+to meet
06:45<MNIM>or TF2, or Halo for a couple of hours for a casual match
06:46<Coke>MNIM: why not openarena or something like that then?
06:46<MNIM>I do those to.
06:46<Coke>also, playing fps with joystick... hmmm.
06:46<MNIM>I have UT2004, UT and OTTD for linux
06:46<Coke>me too
06:46<@Terkhen>so... everyone that does not play open source games or linux games is a snot toddler? :P
06:46<Coke>I used to be quite a quake 3 and ut2004 guru back in the days
06:46<MNIM>but sometimes I just wanna play, I dunno? sim city?
06:46<Coke>Terkhen: that is correct. :)
06:46<KittenKoder>Those are gamers, the modern term "gamer" is used to refer specifically to aesthetic gamers, those who like a lot of flash. Since the game market has expanded so vastly there has been coined several terms for different game players and fans.
06:46<Coke>MNIM: lin city :)
06:46<MNIM>trust me, I have tried it on wine, actually
06:47<MNIM>lin city hardly compares
06:47<MNIM>yeah, to sim city 2000, perhaps
06:47<KittenKoder>Lin City sucks.
06:47<Coke>MNIM: play openttd
06:47<Coke>it's fun.
06:47<@Terkhen>that's kind of stupid
06:47<@Terkhen>but... whatever
06:47<Coke>(i havent played lincity since i wasnt a big fan of sim city)
06:47<MNIM>I do, but Im not playing ottd 24/7
06:47<KittenKoder>Terkhen, what's stupid?
06:47<Coke>MNIM: me neither. sometimes im playing ETQW or NWN
06:48<KittenKoder>Sim City 2K works in DosBox well, even on Linux.
06:48<@Terkhen>reread my last lines to know ;)
06:48<Coke>my dad likes the windows solitaire game a lot, so I installed pysol with 300+ game variations he was very pleased.
06:48<KittenKoder>Oh.
06:48<KittenKoder>LOL
06:48<Coke>gog.com is a fun place for me.
06:49*Rubidium has triple boot ;(
06:49<KittenKoder>I like flashy games to, myself, I get into moods, usually play them on PS2 really.
06:49<MNIM>lol
06:49<MNIM>if Im bored and need a short distraction, I play konquest.
06:49<Coke>KittenKoder: i think it's just as with movies
06:49<MNIM>funny game, really
06:49<KittenKoder>So I guess that makes me a "snot toddler"?
06:49<Coke>they have replaced good story telling and fun game mechanics with rendering graphics.
06:49<Coke>movies are all about cgi and explosions
06:49<KittenKoder>Since I love Final Fantasy XII more than all the others?
06:50<@Terkhen>KittenKoder: and me and everyone I know too :P
06:50<Coke>KittenKoder: i stoped playing FF after the SNES release.
06:50<KittenKoder>XII was awesome compared to all the others after 6.
06:50<Coke>i play games mostly from the time when you couldnt substitute gameplay with graphics
06:50<MNIM>muh. don't talk to me about movies.
06:50*MNIM opens the movieplayer and looks at the history
06:50<KittenKoder>Oh, and I suppose Xonosaga had no story line?
06:51<KittenKoder>Xenosaga.
06:51<KittenKoder>Frelling typos.
06:51<Coke>mongosaga?
06:51<KittenKoder>You have never played it .... you lose out.
06:51<Coke>Anyway, those new games and movies cater to another generation, not mine. (im 33)
06:51<KittenKoder>It's 75% cinematics .....
06:51<Coke>not my thing
06:51<KittenKoder>ALL 3D rendered and raytraced.
06:51<Coke>not impressed.
06:51<MNIM>last played: ST VOY se01-03, LOTR trilogy, before that... the latest NCIS season, V for vendetta, Watchmen, what more...
06:52<MNIM>oh, Exit through the gift shop
06:52<KittenKoder>But here's the catch ... the part you miss out on ... it's got a story that made me, queen bitch of the kingdom of pure hatred, cry.
06:52<Coke>KittenKoder: how old are you?
06:52<KittenKoder>>.>
06:52<Coke>and, really? I saw people crying during avatar.
06:52<Coke>young people.
06:53<KittenKoder>Old enough to have learned to program on an Apple 2e.
06:53<MNIM>says nothing :P
06:53<Coke>I guess they would cut their hearts out if they watched grave of the fireflies or something like that.
06:53<KittenKoder>You mean Dances with Smurfs.
06:53<Coke>HAHA
06:53<Coke>Exactly that.
06:53<MNIM>I know 12 year old flash actionscript coders
06:53<Coke>And that's how I feel about the new games.
06:53<MNIM>hahaha
06:53<MNIM>pocahontas in e mineur blue?
06:53<Coke>They are just rehashes of older, better games, but with a facelift
06:53<KittenKoder>You really need to give some of the new games a chance ... like you did with OTTD.
06:53<MNIM>hey, I agree - I'm still playing ut2004 ONS
06:54<Coke>KittenKoder: what I liked about ottd is the unpretentious look it has
06:54<KittenKoder>OTTD is nothing but a facelift game, that's grown.
06:54<Coke>my thinking "a game that looks so basic has to offer some nice gameplay to keep players on"
06:54<KittenKoder>You haven't seen the new 32bpp stuff yet, have you?
06:54<Coke>KittenKoder: yes I have. removed it.
06:54<Coke>Is there a setting to make the graphics even more pixelated?
06:55<MNIM>it does. I just wish OTTD would move on to a more effecient graphics system, though
06:55<KittenKoder>Aaah ... so you like Disgaea ... oh wait, that's got fancy rotating sprites ....
06:55<MNIM>I mean, I can hardly look at a decent city without lagging
06:55<MNIM>all those pngs trying to show!
06:55<Coke>rotozoom? what's next, 3d?!
06:55<Coke>my word!
06:55<@Terkhen>Coke: launch it with openttd -D
06:56<@Alberth>:D
06:56<MNIM>all individually drawn pixels? really, what an abuse of an ati radeon 5760!
06:56<KittenKoder>LOL
06:56<KittenKoder>Poor graphics card.
06:56<Coke>Yeah, but i saw a post somewhere of someone having written an opengl patch
06:56<MNIM>it's pretty neat.
06:56<Coke>and opengl handles texels pretty well
06:56<@Alberth>Coke: it's not fast enough
06:57<Coke>Ohh?
06:57<KittenKoder>Coke, thought you didn't like new graphics?
06:57<MNIM>it runs several modern games at full graphics like a train.
06:57<MNIM>but ottd, it lags on.
06:57<Coke>KittenKoder: what do you mean? a good practical renderer that moves cpu -> gpu is good
06:57<Coke>KittenKoder: it can still be the same graphics
06:57<KittenKoder>You also haven't been paying attention to OGL changes.
06:57<@Alberth>Coke: graphics cards are good at computing, not at insanely fast blitting bitmaps
06:57<Coke>KittenKoder: and i'm not against good graphics, I'm against good graphics replacing game ideas and gameplay
06:57<KittenKoder>Many of which annoy me because the graphics hardware can't keep up now.
06:57<Coke>Alberth: actually, the new ones are
06:58<KittenKoder>Not really, Coke.
06:58<Coke>or, since a while back
06:58<Coke>I've written loads of 2d engines using opengl
06:58<Coke>There's no "normal" card that can outperform opengl even for 2d operations.
06:58<KittenKoder>Do you have a thousand computers with a thousand configurations?
06:58<Coke>ofcourse, i havent owned ati for ages.
06:58<Coke>KittenKoder: they can use SDL for backend.
06:58<KittenKoder>Many computers still use ATI for one.
06:59<Coke>I'm sure it's comparable to nvidia
06:59<KittenKoder>But here's the thing, OGL is ditching all their old system for a newer more "modern" one that focuses on 3D.
06:59<Coke>And I'm pretty sure ATI's GPU outperforms software rendering for 2D
07:00<Coke>it doesn't lose any 2d capability
07:00<KittenKoder>The 2D stuff still uses the outdated calls, which increased the poll count.
07:00<Coke>(if youre talking 3.1 and beyond)
07:00<KittenKoder>Yes, I am, because you can't store 2D animations in the hardware like you can 3D ones.
07:00<Coke>yes you can
07:00<MNIM>in any way, I think replacing ottd's graphics section with a vector graphics section or even a limited 3d renderer like you see in sim city 3000 would be beneficial for performance even if not for the eyecandy
07:00<KittenKoder>You have to increase the number of push-pulls between the GPU and software.
07:01<Coke>using a VBO and a normal texture
07:01<Coke>all you do is modify the vertices to move to another frame
07:01<Coke>it's all stored on the video card and only the vertex update is sent to the gpu
07:01<KittenKoder>VBO is an increase in GPU op codes.
07:01<Coke>but still a lot faster than moving all pixels to video memory
07:01<KittenKoder>Gah, I said that wrong.
07:02<Coke>let's take SDL for example. there's no 2D operation using SDL's video memory api that can outperform the opengl ones
07:02<KittenKoder>But it's just not something that works well with a lot of 2D animations. We're talking hundreds of sprites, not 50.
07:02<Coke>whether youre doing demo things like bobs, plasma, etc or just plain olde animated sprites
07:02<Coke>KittenKoder: not a problem
07:03<MNIM>hundreds? in larger ottd cities, more like thousands.
07:03<Coke>the opengl 2d will severily outperform direct memory access
07:03<@Alberth>KittenKoder: add at least two zeroes :)
07:03<KittenKoder>I was trying to be a little generous since I don't know the exact number. :p
07:03<Coke>It doesn't matter the number, opengl will still do it faster.
07:03<KittenKoder>I was going to say thousands ... but thought best not to risk over exaggeration.
07:04<KittenKoder>No Coke, it won't.
07:04<MNIM>Not fast enough. Not compared to vectors.
07:04<@Alberth>Coke: so please prove us all wrong, and make a demo
07:04<Coke>KittenKoder: uh, yeah, which is why openttd is about the last games not to use it
07:04<Coke>Alberth: is it OK if I show you someone elses?
07:05<Coke>I can probably explain better with an example
07:05<@Alberth>Coke: well, to convince it must have at least as many bitmap rendering as the same speed as openttd
07:05<KittenKoder>I have not seen a game with more than 50 sprites using OGL that's even compatible with 10% of the popular computer setups.
07:05<Coke>KittenKoder: what shit are you looking at?
07:05<KittenKoder>Nor have I been able to get OGL to do it with more than 100.
07:05<@Alberth>KittenKoder: good point, Coke: at all our supported platforms
07:05<Coke>http://celeron.55.lt/minetest/
07:05<Coke>i briefly worked with this cute little game
07:06<KittenKoder>Most people don't have 8 core 500 ghz machines.
07:06<KittenKoder>To get an idea of the common computer set up, look at top of the line 10 years ago.
07:06<Coke>now, it renders roughly 100k faces with textures on them. animating them is a simple matter of changing the texture offset in the vbo
07:06<KittenKoder>You're still talking 3D.
07:06*Alberth doesn't even have decent 3d rendering
07:06<Coke>Yeah.
07:07<Coke>Using opengl to render 2D
07:07<Coke>i.e 3D to render 2D
07:07<Coke>the only difference is how the projection is set up
07:07<KittenKoder>Mine has ... okay 3D ... but I don't use my computer for any game other than OTTD, and that's just because it would suck without a mouse.
07:07<KittenKoder>How many different textures that are altered with each frame?
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07:08<@Alberth>or where you have to ask a newgrf what the next sprite is to draw?
07:08<Coke>KittenKoder: you dont alter the textures
07:08<KittenKoder>Thus increasing the reference alterations per frame.
07:08<KittenKoder>LOL
07:08<Coke>KittenKoder: you just move the texcoords
07:09<KittenKoder>There's where you fail to see the problem.
07:09<Coke>in any case, software like mplayer etc works fine rendering full HD in opengl with less CPU than using SDL
07:10<KittenKoder>TT sprites are not just a series of static images, palette color shifting is one of the big animation techniques.
07:10<KittenKoder>Actually, mplayer sucks in OGL on my computer.
07:10<KittenKoder>If it doesn't crash, the audio synch is always wrong.
07:10<Coke>KittenKoder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giRYBROAO20
07:10<Coke>how about that for effects?
07:11<KittenKoder>So basically you want a complete rewrite of OTTD just to make it more modern?
07:11<Coke>opengl may not be a well suited framework to apply with the current openttd design, but it is still A LOT faster than 2D operations on any videocard with basic opengl
07:11<Coke>KittenKoder: definately not
07:11<KittenKoder>That's what making it OGL means.
07:12<Coke>I'm just asying if used properly, opengl is faster than 2d also for rendering 2d.
07:12<Coke>KittenKoder: yes, I noted several problems while reading the source code (for porting to an opengl blitter that is)
07:12<KittenKoder>OGL isn't the end all for 3D.
07:12<Coke>but you would also get a few nice things for free: z ordering, translucancy, fast scrolling, etc
07:12<KittenKoder>It isn't the end all for anything really.
07:13<Coke>which is not what I said either
07:13<KittenKoder>OGL is just another alternative with trade-offs like all other methods.
07:13<KittenKoder>Also OGL has SERIOUS compatibility issues.
07:13<Coke>Sure. But there is no effect that can be achieved faster in 2d raw memory blitting than in opengl when using an opengl 2.1 or higher card
07:13<Coke>KittenKoder: where, how?
07:13<KittenKoder>Many modern video cards will spit the code back out like vomit.
07:13<Coke>Like what model?
07:13<KittenKoder>There is only one brand of video card that doesn't.
07:14<Coke>so how do all these games do it then?
07:14<Coke>work nicely on a lot of different hardware and OS'
07:14<KittenKoder>They force their players to buy that one brand.
07:14<KittenKoder>Just because a lot of games exist using OGL doesn't mean it's liked or better.
07:15<Coke>not really. played many many opengl-based games the last 10 years, all work on lin, win, nvidia, ati and intel
07:15<@Alberth>just like Windows :p
07:15<KittenKoder>I have not heard one person using ATI that has not had problems with OGL.
07:15<Coke>KittenKoder: no, but it's definately faster than 2D memory access.
07:15<KittenKoder>OGL devs hate ATI.
07:15<Coke>KittenKoder: that has been ATI's problem from get go
07:15<@Alberth>Coke: really, make a demo instead of rattling on about how wonderful OGL is
07:15<Coke>no, ATI devs are just lousy at reading specs
07:15<Coke>Tbh I don't have to.
07:16<KittenKoder>Coke, someone said I couldn't make a decent IRC clone in Java, want to know what I did? I made one in two weeks, proved them wrong ... so where's your great and powerful 2D fully animated sprite game with thousands of sprites?
07:17<Rubidium>KittenKoder: oh, let me be the first ;)
07:17<KittenKoder>LOL
07:17<Rubidium>I've got no problem with OGL and I'm using an ATI card
07:17<Coke>KittenKoder: there are plenty of engines
07:17<Coke>KittenKoder: also, I'm not stupid enough to spend two weeks to prove the obvious
07:17<KittenKoder>Which OS, Rubidium
07:17<Rubidium>what I do have problems with is the intense heat the thing produces
07:17<Coke>Rubidium: he's FUD'ing pretty hard.
07:17<KittenKoder>.. and yes, that would make you the first I have known.
07:17<Rubidium>KittenKoder: Linux
07:18<KittenKoder>Load up Blender 5 ... design a scene with more than 1000 polygons.
07:18<Rubidium>pff...
07:18<KittenKoder>LOL
07:18<Rubidium>why would I
07:18<Rubidium>then I'd probably first have to install the ogl stack
07:18<KittenKoder>Meh, just messing with you now.
07:18<Coke>KittenKoder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p17Ur66Y1_c
07:18<MNIM>I've got Ati on linux.
07:19<MNIM>it works. if you wanna play Ut2004 on full specs, that is, I have little other comparison.
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07:19<KittenKoder>The recent changes to OGL make Blender 5 crash with more than a certain number of polygons .... which makes it hard for me because my hobby was making music videos with it.
07:20<Coke>blender 5? I'm on version 2. I cant find a 5
07:20<KittenKoder>... which most of the people I know using ATI and OGL are Blender artists.
07:20<Coke>2.59 is the latest
07:20<KittenKoder>It's 2.5, they call it Blender 5 on the site.
07:20<Rubidium>KittenKoder: pff... what about: computer shuts down because GPU creates too much heat after a certain amount of minutes
07:21<Coke>says 2.59 in blender.org
07:21<KittenKoder>That would suck.
07:21<Coke>big logo with "2.5"
07:21<Rubidium>hell, probably the amount of polygons your blender crashes has been higher than the number of seconds my computer stayed on
07:21<KittenKoder>My "new" laptops, at the time anyway, had that problem.
07:21<@Alberth>Coke: more than one number is too complicated for the average user
07:22<Coke>KittenKoder: opengl outperforms hardware blitting, for 2d.
07:22<KittenKoder>Coke, seriously, are you nitpicking just be a troll ... read through the forums that I was reading for once.
07:22<KittenKoder>... and no, it doesn't always, only in some instances.
07:22<Coke>Where opengl is available in hw.
07:22<KittenKoder>You don't use a phillip's on a flathead screw, do you?
07:22<Coke>I have yet to see one video card with opengl support that does not.
07:22<Rubidium>Coke: then why is the OpenGL video driver of OpenTTD slower?
07:22<Coke>Rubidium: I haven't looked at it.
07:22<Rubidium>(not to mention that it didn't fully work)
07:22<Coke>maybe he's using immediate mode?
07:23<@peter1138>hi
07:23<KittenKoder>Who's "he"?
07:23<@peter1138>Rubidium, because i didn't write it properly :D
07:23<Rubidium>good afternoon Lord Nelson ;)
07:23<Coke>KittenKoder: the author?
07:23<Coke>Oh see there.
07:23<KittenKoder>Immediate mode?
07:23<@peter1138>and yes, it was all immediate
07:23<Coke>there u go
07:24<KittenKoder>There's another older mode?
07:24<Coke>KittenKoder: newer
07:24<Coke>or, immediate is the old way yeah
07:24<Coke>you transfer every vertex every frame
07:24<KittenKoder>Oh, you mean sending each op code with every frame.
07:24<Coke>unless you used call lists which take up HUGE bandwidth to trasnfer to gpu
07:24<@peter1138>actually it cheated and only drew changed bits
07:24<Coke>KittenKoder: yes.
07:24<@peter1138>so the frame was never cleared
07:24<Rubidium>wasn't there a problem with the sprites not being 2**n by 2**n in size and there being too much sprites?
07:25<Coke>Not any more.
07:25<KittenKoder>There's the biggest flaw with OGL.
07:25<Coke>That sprite size limit is gone since 2.0
07:25<KittenKoder>No, it hasn't.
07:25<KittenKoder>My machine still requires it and it's OGL 3.
07:25<@peter1138>you can get around it on some cards, but not all
07:25<Coke>KittenKoder: doubtful.
07:25<KittenKoder>3.something or other.
07:25<Coke>peter1138: what cards don't ahve the 3 ARB extrensions ?
07:25<@peter1138>Rubidium, one big issue was threading
07:26<KittenKoder>Just because something exists doesn't mean it works.
07:26<@peter1138>where a bit of the terrain generator loaded some sprites to get the size
07:26<Coke>KittenKoder: ok, let's think about this logically.
07:26<KittenKoder>The extensions on mine don't work at all.
07:26<@peter1138>i couldn't be bothered to abstract some stuff fully for that to work properly
07:26<Coke>If you can have 100k quads with animated textures, making them use a 2d modelview so they always face the camera wouldnt punish the rendering time
07:26<KittenKoder>Wait, you use quads?
07:26<KittenKoder>Seriously?
07:26<Coke>I'm sure peter1138 did
07:27<Coke>KittenKoder: in any case, yeah, quads are used in most, only they are stored in big vertex lists
07:27<Coke>most of the time optimized by triangles
07:27<KittenKoder>Quads go through several extra op codes because they are converted to tris before going to the GPU.
07:27<@peter1138>yeah, i used quads
07:28<Coke>I'm also quite sure that on any opengl compat hw, drawing opengl using normal vbo's and textures (including writing directly to texture memory) is faster than 2D blitting
07:28<KittenKoder>peter1138, don't worry, all the crap OGL makes you go through just to get one 2D image properly rendered at a decent speed is really not worth it.
07:28<Coke>mostly because NOBODY is using 2D blitting any more, not even window managers.
07:28<KittenKoder>Window managers also suck these days.
07:28<KittenKoder>I can see Gnome making updates to things I move now.
07:28<KittenKoder>It annoys me.
07:29<Coke>I don't use a DE; just plain olde fluxbox
07:30<@peter1138>there's also code that deals with pixels
07:30<KittenKoder>I am not messing with Ubuntu's crap anymore, I got it all working, leaving it at that.
07:30<@peter1138>nobody deals with pixels in opengl!
07:30<KittenKoder>Nobody who uses OGL codes.
07:30<KittenKoder>;)
07:30<Coke>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xgNe3Je1kU
07:30<@peter1138>glBegin(GL_POINTS); :D
07:30<KittenKoder>OGL is for lazy programmers anyway.
07:31<Coke>thats what old geezer says
07:31<@peter1138>opengl is awesome, imho
07:31<Coke>who dont want to move on in time
07:31<KittenKoder>But even then ... I'm a lazy programmer and it just annoyed me.
07:31<@peter1138>good for 2d and 3d
07:31<Coke>peter1138: indeed.
07:31<@peter1138>just... i'm no good at fitting it into openttd
07:31<Coke>i guess directx is actually running past opengl these days
07:31<Coke>peter1138: not with the current blitting api, no
07:32<@peter1138>only in windows, and who cares about that
07:32<KittenKoder>DirectX is highly OS dependent though.
07:32<Coke>peter1138: but hey. if you want to take a serious stab at it I'm willing to help out
07:32<Coke>I don't know that much about openttd yet, but i'm proficient with opengl
07:32<KittenKoder>Just announce the version that implements it, so I know not to bother upgrading.
07:33<Coke>KittenKoder: my gosh you are negative.
07:33<Coke>Did opengl hurt you when you were a kid and now the memories linger?
07:33<KittenKoder>No, OGL made all graphics cards obsolete recently, and messed up their whole architecture recently, and now nothing works right.
07:34<KittenKoder>So yeah, I am pissed at it, but more importantly, it won't run on even my newest computer.
07:34<Coke>peter1138: the reason opengl 3.1 (and 4) will not be as good as directx is because of democracy. MS dicides like a dictator whereas opengl needs to get all participants on the same page. have not worked well as of late.
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07:34<Coke>KittenKoder: youre the only one having a problem with it that I know of :)
07:35<KittenKoder>That's the problem with a lot of open source these days, and THAT annoys me most. OpenTTD is about the only Open Source project that hasn't completely fallen apart.
07:35<Coke>KittenKoder: and opengl is backwards compatible, some features have been marked with deprecated for 8 years
07:35<Coke>KittenKoder: wow.
07:35<Coke>I think that is rubbish.
07:35<Coke>I haven't used any non-free software for over 10 years and my life is great.
07:36<KittenKoder>Coke, you fail to see that most graphics cards do only support older stuff still, even ones made today.
07:36<Coke>KittenKoder: opengl 2.1 is still what I use
07:36<Coke>and most graphics cards support 2.1 + the 3 ARB extensions
07:36<KittenKoder>With the current turmoil between hardware and OGL devs, it's not going to work at all soon.
07:36<Coke>every ID title released since Q2 has an opengl backend
07:37<Coke>works on many platforms
07:37<Coke>KittenKoder: I agree the future is uncertain, but I don't share that negative feeling towards it.
07:37<Coke>peter1138: did you start a new repos yet? :)
07:37<KittenKoder>Have you been reading the arguments between the OGL devs?
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07:38<KittenKoder>Wouldn't surprise me if OGL breaks into several different projects altogether.
07:38<Coke>KittenKoder: so that's why your feelings are hurt?
07:38<KittenKoder>One for each video card model.
07:39<KittenKoder>The devs can't agree on anything, and the hardware makers are not making it better because most don't want to support everything.
07:39<Coke>KittenKoder: let me put it like this; the only alternative today is DirectX. What do you prefer?
07:39<KittenKoder>The power of two issue being the biggest one.
07:39<KittenKoder>I prefer simple 2D direct blitting.
07:40<Coke>KittenKoder: not fast enough
07:40<Coke>not the way cards are built
07:40<@Terkhen>we should start charging for hosting internet drama sessions :P
07:40<KittenKoder>It's solid, works, and is fast enough if you know how to use the video cards.
07:40<Coke>and vendors wont make it better just because 0.0001% of their customers play openttd
07:40<Coke>KittenKoder: also, ther's no standard for that either
07:40<Coke>granularity, offsets, etc are all different on different chipsets.
07:40*TWerkhoven hands terkhen some popcorn
07:41<KittenKoder>There are no standards for anything anymore anyway.
07:41<TWerkhoven>its good entertainment
07:41<@Terkhen>thanks, but I stopped reading many lines ago... it's more fun when you understand the topic
07:41<KittenKoder>You have to write many different functions for each method now anyway.
07:41<Coke>KittenKoder: don't be so negative.
07:41<KittenKoder>Don't tell me what not to do.
07:41<@peter1138>so has anyone used LXC?
07:42<@peter1138>i was going to use vservers, but then i saw a note that it is deprecated and won't be in debian after squeeze...
07:42<Coke>peter1138: what's replacing it?
07:42<KittenKoder>Coke, face it, one single answer to anything is bad.
07:42<@peter1138>lxc, afaict
07:42<@peter1138>but the tools are... different
07:43<Coke>KittenKoder: nobody's giving a one single answer
07:43<@peter1138>networking is different
07:43<KittenKoder>OGL .... that's giving a single answer to lots of things.
07:43<Coke>KittenKoder: opengl still kicks the shit out of 2d blitting on modern hardawre and has done so for the last 10 years
07:43<KittenKoder>No, it hasn't.
07:44<Coke>KittenKoder: yes, but because you havent done jack with opengl you woudlnt know
07:44<KittenKoder>It's been a crutch for so long too few programs that don't use it exist now.
07:44<@peter1138>is 2d blitting even accelerated these days?
07:44<Coke>peter1138: yes.
07:44<KittenKoder>I haven't released anything with OGL, doesn't mean I haven't used it.
07:44<Coke>peter1138: but it's still not as fast as billboards
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07:45<@peter1138>of course, blitting in the context of openttd is irrelevant anyway
07:45<KittenKoder>Meh, with modern CPUs it's moot.
07:45<@peter1138>the real blitting is done in the cpu
07:46<Coke>peter1138: yeah, that part would have to be replaced
07:46<@peter1138>later on sdl is used to blit the changed parts, but whether that's accelerated is up to sdl
07:46<Coke>I saw that just glancing the sources.
07:46<KittenKoder>SDL does accelerate.
07:46<KittenKoder>Well, it does "where possible" ... in other words if the hardware can.
07:46<Coke>peter1138: I think the best aproach would be to replace the 2d memory access with texture memory access
07:47<Coke>peter1138: it is faster to access pixels in a texture than it is on 2d memory.
07:47<KittenKoder>... and then sacrifice all accuracy in the process.
07:47<Coke>KittenKoder: depends on what you tell the renderer
07:47<Coke>you can get pixel perfect texels
07:47<KittenKoder>Everything is done in floating point on GPUs.
07:48<KittenKoder>Floating point = no accuracy/
07:48<Coke>KittenKoder: for all integral values it is exact
07:48<Coke>you are misinformed beyond comprehension
07:48<KittenKoder>It's converted to floating point.
07:48<Coke>what is?
07:48<KittenKoder>All coordinate values.
07:49<Coke>but if you use even numbers that does not matter
07:49<Coke>KittenKoder: also, this only proves you are totally unfamiliar with opengl
07:49<Coke>opengl has interface for short, int, float and double
07:49<KittenKoder>Um ... do you understand how hardware uses floating points?
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07:49<KittenKoder>At all I mean?
07:49<Coke>KittenKoder: it doesn't matter.
07:49<KittenKoder>Yes it does.
07:50<@peter1138>KittenKoder, not all values are inaccurate in floating point
07:50<Coke>peter1138: that was also my point
07:50<Coke>for instance, all even numbers are equal to their integral counterparts
07:50<KittenKoder>Again, it's converted to floating even if coded as an int.
07:50<Coke>except 0.0 which can also be -0.0 in IEEE 754 which is what most platforms use
07:50<Coke>KittenKoder: so???
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07:51<Coke>look, I respect that you don't like opengl for nostalgic values or whatever, but this is just FUD youre doing
07:51<KittenKoder>No.
07:51<Coke>you can achieve 100% pixel accurate rendering in opengl
07:51<KittenKoder>Not all things can be answered with one answer.
07:51<Coke>nobody said that.
07:51<KittenKoder>... and no.
07:51<Coke>but 2D can be EASILY and readily answered with opengl and directx.
07:52<KittenKoder>Why?>
07:52<Coke>because the current hardware does it faster than raw video memory access.
07:52<KittenKoder>"Because we can?
07:52<KittenKoder>Really, and you expect what to change?
07:52<Coke>it allows for faster scaling, transparency and pixel access.
07:53<KittenKoder>Okay, so instead of using 1% of the CPU process it will now use .75% of the process.
07:53<Coke>actually a lot less since once the initial data is trasnferred to the video card, only a miniscule amount of cpu and ram will be used
07:54<KittenKoder>Not really.
07:54<KittenKoder>There's a lot more than just graphics happening, especially in the "non-3D" games. ;)
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07:55<Coke>it doesnt matter to opengl if its 3d or not.
07:55<KittenKoder>Did I say that?
07:55<A1ONE-Hyppokrif>Hi
07:55<KittenKoder>Look, let's take Sim City for example.
07:55<Coke>no, let's not.
07:55<@Alberth>hi A1ONE-Hyppokrif
07:55<Coke>you bore me now.
07:55<@Terkhen>hi A1ONE-Hyppokrif
07:56<KittenKoder>while you see hundreds of sprites, less than a quarter of the op codes are actually drawing those, the rest are doing math for economy, simpeople routes, etc.
07:56<+glx>IIRC someone tried opengl, didn't work very well
07:56<Coke>glx: we
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07:57<Coke>we've been through that, it's peter1138 in this channel here right now, explained he used immediate mode quads in his experiment
07:57<Coke>opengl would render 2d faster for a fraction of the cpu cost, period. whether it matters or not is another story.
07:57<@Terkhen>both of you implement whatever you are proposing and we'll benchmark it later, otherwise this discussion serves no purpose
07:57<KittenKoder>I highly doubt that more than half the 1% of CPU processes in OTTD are graphical.
07:57<KittenKoder>I'm saying, just keep adding more features to OTTD ... ;)
07:58<Coke>Terkhen: agreed. that said, I think there are no real gains of moving to opengl unless you were planning to add some graphical enhancenments
07:59<+glx>anyway pathfinding will still be the CPU eater, with or without opengl
07:59<@planetmaker>what could be enhanced that way?
07:59<Coke>planetmaker: shadows, lighting, etc
07:59<@planetmaker>but everything 3D...
08:00<+glx>on sprites ?
08:00<Coke>planetmaker: maybe someone would add real models so you could rotate the map
08:00<@planetmaker>which means to 100% redraw and code ALL content, including base sets
08:00<Coke>glx: yes. using bump mapping for instance. im just making stuff up
08:00<@planetmaker>thus writing a new game
08:00<Coke>planetmaker: well, i didnt say minor tweaks
08:00<+glx>we are still waiting for a full 32bpp base set
08:00<KittenKoder>Pathfinding is a huge drain.
08:01<Coke>glx: probably because most ppl are like me, the original 8bpp is fine
08:01<KittenKoder>I have noticed road vehicles cause bigger spikes than any of them.
08:01<Coke>also, I love pixel art.
08:01<+glx>try ships KittenKoder :)
08:01<+glx>in open sea
08:01<@Alberth>Coke: anyone not loving 2.5D is scared away with the first screen shot :)
08:02<KittenKoder>I don't use those often ... they never go where I want them to. >.<
08:02<Coke>Alberth: well, I still play a lot of NES. still the best looking games ever
08:02<@planetmaker>Coke: even in 32bpp, using textures etc is a complete new technique, thus the re-use factor for anything done previously is 0%
08:02<KittenKoder>I managed to make a 2048x2048 map lag with too many tracks and trains once .... using all PBS.
08:03<Coke>planetmaker: yeah, it's pretty much a dead cause
08:04<KittenKoder>What we need are better math-co processors again ....
08:04<Coke>if you guys like pixel art http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKkTS6aM1gc
08:05<KittenKoder>The strategy games I like are also bad with them.
08:07<Coke>"Datsum 180b monster truck" hehehe
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08:12<KittenKoder>You know what would be cool, add a more realistic train wreck option!
08:12<KittenKoder>:p
08:13<KittenKoder>BOOM!
08:13<@Alberth>not good for business
08:13<KittenKoder>Yeah, but cool for those bored out of your mind days.
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08:27<__ln__>why are dutch and luxembourgish flags so similar?
08:28<Hirundo>they were united under one king until 1890
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08:30<__ln__>well that explains something
08:30<MNIM>the russian flag is very similar to the dutch one too.
08:30*MNIM shrugs
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08:31<__ln__>MNIM: but different order of colors. between .nl and .lu only the shade of blue and red is different.
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08:37<MNIM>oh, I thought they were the same too
08:41<__ln__>still, the dutch could add e.g. a pink pony in the middle of the flag to make it more recognizable.
08:44<@Alberth>suggesting something connected with water has a better chance of getting added :p
08:45<MNIM>well, we do! that's what the blue part supposedly stands for anyway
08:45<__ln__>a pink fish then?
08:45<MNIM>also, those luxembourgers were the ones insisting on going on their own anyway, let them solve their own problem.
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09:08<Eddi|zuHause>luxemburg was split around 1850 into a french-speaking and a german-speaking part
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>(the french-speaking part is now part of belgium)
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>but for some reason the german-speaking luxemburg didn't want to be part of the german empire after 1871
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09:26<MNIM>of course not.
09:26<MNIM>in 1870 germany wasn't a single nation.
09:27<MNIM>and that what mostly resembled a nation 'germany' was massively defeated by france in a war just a year ago.
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09:34<frosch123>MNIM: 1870 != 1815
09:37<MNIM><Eddi|zuHause> but for some reason the german-speaking luxemburg didn't want to be part of the german empire after 1871
09:37<MNIM>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War
09:37<MNIM>that war
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09:38<MNIM>Oh wait, I got my facts reversed apparently.
09:39<MNIM>I thought france won that war >.<
09:39<Hirundo>That can't be: http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blpic-frenchmilitaryvictories.htm
09:43<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22744 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Codechange: Clarify the scope of variables in LoadUnloadVehicle().
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09:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22745 /trunk/src/ (economy.cpp newgrf_animation_type.h): -Fix: [NewGRF] SAT_CARGO_TAKEN and AAT_STATION_CARGO_TAKEN shall only be triggered when all cargo was taken.
09:47<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22746 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] Implement feature 04 property 18 bit 5.
09:47<frosch123>that message is for eddi :)
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>:p
09:48<@Terkhen>time to fix the wiki :)
09:48<Rubidium>oh... you broke the wiki
09:48<@planetmaker>oh no!
09:48<frosch123>fixed the wiki :p
09:49<@Terkhen>property 19 is... strange
09:49<frosch123>typical eis_os mess
09:49<frosch123>take a look at bridge properties and bridge variables :p
09:51<@Terkhen>looks complicated
09:51<@Terkhen>but not as complicated as stations, I never managed to understand station specs
09:52<frosch123>yeah, stations are definitely the most complicated feature
09:52<Hirundo>at *some* point they will be done in NML and all will be easy :P
09:53<frosch123>Hirundo: i would expect nml to make feature requests to ottd to make it easier :p
09:53<@Terkhen>along with patches that implement those feature requests? :P
09:54<Hirundo>Feature request: Extended action1 :)
09:54<@Alberth>implementation: trivial, left as an exercise to the reader :p
09:57<@Terkhen>action1 is equivalent to spritesets?
09:57<frosch123>hmm, the spec is from 19th of june. iirc i wanted to discuss it with yexo. is he really gone since 2 months?
09:57<Hirundo>sortof, yes
09:58<Hirundo>IIRC since early july
09:58<@Terkhen>the left somewhen before the 15th of july
09:58<@Terkhen>he left*
09:58<frosch123>well, july, not june
09:58<@Terkhen>then yes :P
09:59<frosch123>hmm, or i meant the secondary features....
09:59<frosch123>... and action1 was already settled
10:00<frosch123>(might make sense, since it involves airports, while the other thing only involves nml)
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10:04<Hirundo>Is there some proposal around to access multiple 'related' objects?
10:05<@planetmaker>yes
10:05<@planetmaker>or the idea
10:05<frosch123>Hirundo: same page as the other stuff
10:05<frosch123>http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch
10:05<@planetmaker>^^ always a good source for quacking about specs ;-)
10:06<frosch123>not quacking :p
10:07<@planetmaker>it somehow became the inofficial collection of newgrf spec suggestions
10:07<@planetmaker>writing?
10:07<frosch123>"Quaking is not Quacking! " <- very first section on that page :p
10:09<@planetmaker>oh :-)
10:10<frosch123>according to andy only ducks quack
10:10<frosch123>so, i needed some different verb :p
10:10<@Terkhen>I find the fifth related object specially interesting :)
10:11<frosch123>yeah, it will cause quite some headache for grf2html :p
10:11<@Terkhen>where interesting == allows the craziest stuff
10:11<frosch123>you need to know to which callback a action2 belongs, else you cannot tell what the variable is about
10:11<frosch123>Terkhen: anyway, it is primarily meant for airport state machines
10:12<frosch123>but has also usecases with today's stuff
10:13<Hirundo>the 'next front engine' would be a good excuse to scrap livery overrides from nml :)
10:13<frosch123>exactly :p
10:13<@Terkhen>:)
10:16<Hirundo>Conceptually, would it be possible/useful to access industry tiles from the industry (via some parameter to specify the relative coordinates of the tile) ?
10:16<frosch123>there are already landinfo variables for that
10:17<frosch123>maybe also random bits
10:17<frosch123>not sure what else you might want
10:17<frosch123>yeah, var60 to 62
10:17<Hirundo>hmm... yes, all seems covered by 60+x vars already
10:17<frosch123>i guess tiles have no other information
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10:38<@Alberth>planetmaker: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/airportsplus/repository/entry/sprites/airport_city.pnml <-- tilelayout would be the same for each rotation right? (except for the tile coordinate changes)
10:40<@planetmaker>currently it rather works like "views". That is, the newgrf author has the freedom to use a completely different tile layout
10:40<@Alberth>I am making an airport state machine handling program with input like this http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/city.txt (just started, last part is not correct yet), and I need some tile layout description too, mainly for hangars and terminal groups
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10:41<MNIM>oopsie.
10:41<@planetmaker>but the current implementation of what _I_ would do in _that_ newgrf is what you said
10:41<@Alberth>but not entirely, ie state machine positions do not change and depot orientation does neither
10:41<@planetmaker>yes, the statemachine is rotated, but I could use different tiles
10:42<@planetmaker>i.e. statemachine is rotated simply. Tiles... would need to make sure it looks ok with that
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10:42<@Alberth>I was wondering to make a 2d grid of tiles, but it may become large, I fear
10:42<@planetmaker>a layout IS a 2d grid of tiles
10:43<@Alberth>yeah, but 2d also in text -> 1 line == 1 row of tiles
10:43<@planetmaker>the current way is IMHO quite readible
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10:44<@Alberth>true, and better expandable with new data. I'll use that instead
10:44<@planetmaker>like one line per tile. It's an established method and works the same for industries, too
10:44<@planetmaker>it's just a matter of proper formating :-)
10:45*Alberth likes a 2d view :)
10:45<@planetmaker>yes... :-)
10:45<@planetmaker>but then one would need short names etc
10:45<@Alberth>I was thinking to make a 2.5D view anyway of all the positions
10:46<@Alberth>but that is not going to happen today :)
10:47<@planetmaker>including height, you mean?
10:48<@Alberth>yep
10:48<Zuu>Is "aircraft" plural? Or should it be "aircrafts" in plural?
10:48<@planetmaker>Zuu: it's uncountable
10:48<Zuu>Okay
10:48<@planetmaker>one aircraft. Two aircraft
10:48<@Alberth>a single aircraft has too many parts :p
10:49<@planetmaker>:-P
10:49<@planetmaker>A good landing is where all wreck parts are scattered in the same direction
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>english and its totally silly pluralisation laws...
10:49<@Alberth>planetmaker: while maintaining cohesion between the parts
10:50<@planetmaker>that's a very good landing ;-)
10:51<@planetmaker>or so a friend of mine who already built dozens of model aircraft says ;-)
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>in german, all products ending in "-werk" (which i presume to be equivalent to "-craft") are properly pluralised (e.g. "Uhrwerk" => "Uhrwerke")
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: how many of those managed to "land"? :)
10:52<@planetmaker>:-) Many made a final landing
10:52<@planetmaker>The biggest is still alive. But it was his diplom thesis and is actually a 2m wing-span, 400km/h jet-engine with a semi-autonomous mode.
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>you mean a drone
10:53<@planetmaker>not quite
10:53<@Terkhen>that does not sound like a model aircraft :P
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>i thought that's pretty much exactly what a drone is, a slightly smaller aircraft with a computer steering it. plus the military variant also has a weapon
10:55<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but it's not capable to completely fly on its own. That's why semi-autonomous
10:55<@planetmaker>you can give it a certain flight path, but that's it
10:55<@planetmaker>no input then from sensors which drive it
10:55<@planetmaker>http://www.tieffliegen.de/modelle/zustand.html <-- his collection
10:56<@planetmaker>but that one is not among it
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10:59<@planetmaker>hm... sorry, video or photo of that plane is hard to come by
11:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22747 /branches/1.1/ (5 files in 3 dirs):
11:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
11:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Some corrupted savegames could crash OpenTTD instead of showing the 'savegame corrupted' message [FS#4717] (r22737, r22736)
11:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Triggering NOT_REACHED when playing with a NewGRF that supplies genders/cases for a language that was not installed [FS#4718] (r22735)
11:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22748 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare: 1.1.2
11:27<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22749 /tags/1.1.2/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Release 1.1.2
11:37<@planetmaker>so... how long does it take now till the CF is finished?
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11:51<Rubidium>planetmaker: pushing to the mirror as we speak
11:51<@planetmaker>aye. :-)
11:56<Zuu>Dho, I always seem to forget to select the SuperLib when I upload a new CluelessPlus version. Hopefully those 9 people that didn't get SuperLib automatically will soon *update all* again. :-)
11:56<Zuu>Though, if they made a *update all*, they maybe would have got SuperLib 12 even if no AI demanded it.
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12:14<Zuu>Is there a particular reason why FS#4704 has not been backported? Perhaps it was fixed too recent?
12:15<Zuu>or it has just been forgoten?
12:19<frosch123>too recent, it is scheduled for 1.1.3-rc1
12:19<frosch123>just like 10 other things :)
12:20<frosch123>1.1.2-rc1 also had lots of stuff which hit trunk before 1.1.1
12:23<@planetmaker>Zuu: it would have required a new 1.1.2-RC3 instead of 1.1.2 stable
12:23<Zuu>Okay I see.
12:23<@planetmaker>best is if RC(last) == stable wrt code base
12:24<Zuu>I just found a bug in SuperLib that occures only if you call it from a class that is not subclass of AIController. :-)
12:25<Zuu>The "this" keywoard in a static function in SuperLib refers to the class in the AI from where the code is called :-D
12:26<Zuu>In the acient ages, you had to instance API classes in order to call API functions. Thus using this.Sleep(..) was usefull in the AI main class :-)
12:29<Zuu>... and I had wishes to for the first time in ages release more than one AI that use the same SuperLib version ;-)
12:34<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
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12:44<Leftie>Heyho, quick question.
12:44<Leftie>Is it possible to disable NewGRFs in-game?
12:44<Leftie>Or only set them before starting a game?
12:44<Coke>Hey there. Is it possible to run openttd in verbose mode to find out why my sprite suddenly isnt overriding the original signal graphics?
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12:48<Ammler>Leftie: you need scenario_developer set to manipulate newgrfs after gamestart
12:49<Leftie>Sh.
12:49<Leftie>Ah*
12:49<Coke>weird, was working a moment ago, experimented a bit with the offsets
12:49<Leftie>Don't quite remember it being like that last time I played a while ago, maybe its changed since then.
12:49<@planetmaker>Leftie: modifying NewGRFs after game start is likely to introduce hidden bugs and glitches
12:49<@Terkhen>Leftie: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=53881
12:49<@planetmaker>thus it's unsafe to do.
12:50<Leftie>Either i'm confusing OpenTTD and TTDP, or OTTD once allowed it?
12:50<Leftie>Cause if memory serves, I never had any issues. (I could never make my mind up what GRFs to use)
12:50<@Terkhen>check the thread :P
12:51<Ammler>Leftie: it still does, you just should be aware that it can cuase issues
12:51<Leftie>Such as now, I've just realised after 20 ingame years this GRF is actually quite poo.
12:51<Ammler>that is why you need to use the special setting
12:51<Coke>ouch, search replace in editor replaced the id :P
12:51<Leftie>Where do I find the setting? I've had a quick glance around the settings.
12:51<Coke>also -d grf=1000 seems to work fine :)
12:52<Ammler>@man scenario_developer
12:52<Ammler>well, look for that in the wiki
12:52<Leftie>It's in the wiki? I must be blind. I've looked there too.
12:52<Ammler>maybe webster should be in this channel :-)
12:53<@Alberth>Coke: 9 or 10 is more than enough :)
12:53<@Alberth>Ammler: not for explaining settings that you should not use in the first place
12:53<@Terkhen>IIRC the max debug level was usually 9
12:54<Coke>better safe than sorry ;)
12:54<Leftie>Alright, managed to disable this GRF, and low and behold.
12:54<Leftie>Nothing crap has happened.
12:54<Ammler>Alberth: well, now you need to explain it, webster could just link it :-P
12:54<Leftie>I was partially expecting my computer to explode from the warnings you all gave me and the big red box.
12:54<@Alberth>Leftie: nothing that you observe directly
12:54<@Alberth>Leftie: that does not mean you now have a sane save game
12:54<Leftie>Nah, i've had a quick check, I don't just presume things.
12:54<@Terkhen>Leftie: usually they are hard to notice, insidious bugs
12:54<Zuu>I think I forgot one thing in my last sign-patch: to disable clicking of hidden signs in the viewport :-D
12:55<Leftie>hm, let me save and reload.
12:55<Ammler>openttd is able to load broken saves
12:55<@Alberth>Leftie: 'appear to work' means nothing
12:55<Ammler>:-)
12:55<Leftie>Eh, save and reload works.
12:55<Leftie>So yeah, works for me.
12:56<Ammler>devs tend to make people more worry than needed ;-)
12:56<Ammler>tey just fear nice bug reports :-P
12:56<andythenorth>it's because handling fake bug reports is boring
12:56<@Alberth>devs assume people are stupid, which is often true
12:56<Leftie>Why would I do that? It does clearly say don't report bugs that occur from this.
12:57<andythenorth>it's a long story :(
12:57<@Alberth>Leftie: if only everybody was as smart :(
12:57<Ammler>oh, you might first person reading that red box
12:57<andythenorth>they are smart
12:57<andythenorth>they learn that ignoring the red box is ok
12:57<andythenorth>because mostly they don't see the problems
12:57<@Alberth>well educated by Windows
12:57<Leftie>Ammler: Its quite a red box. When I see a red box, I generally tend to read it, its usually something bad :p
12:57<@Terkhen>nothing happened this time -> let's keep doing it
12:57<@planetmaker>^^
12:57<andythenorth>so they learn - correctly - that mostly the red box is a false alarm
12:57<@Terkhen>something happens later -> I forgot that it might be caused by the red box
12:57<Ammler>Leftie: did you open the readme?
12:57<andythenorth>then they forget that they've changed grfs, and report bugs to me
12:57<@Terkhen>-> false bug report
12:57<@Terkhen>:P
12:57<Leftie>Terkhen: nah, I wasn't expecting OpenTTD+ BigGUI to actually be that hideous.
12:58<Leftie>So I won't be using it again anyway :p
12:58<@planetmaker>or give the savegame / scenario to another person. That one doesn't know...
12:58<@Alberth>it took 20 game years to figure that out? :)
12:58<Ammler>well, openttd should make categories for static grfs
12:58<@Terkhen>I know that most of the time nothing happens... but you can't really give normal users the impression that something is ok when it is not
12:58<Leftie>Alberth: I try giving things a chance, incase they 'grow' on me.
12:58<Ammler>those are save to load and drop ingame
12:58<Leftie>It didn't :p
12:58<@Terkhen>they expect a bug free experience
12:58<Ammler>safe*
12:59<Leftie>If you ever get a bug free game, you're doing it wrong ;)
12:59<Leftie>As in, probably not playing it right. I've yet to come across a game thats truly been completely bug free.
12:59<@Alberth>Ammler: not really, it is easy to make a grf that kills the game by loading something else
12:59<Ammler>why would that be wrong?
12:59<Ammler>Alberth: with static content
13:00<@Alberth>so? make an industry grf that disables itself if you load a certain static newgrf.
13:00<Ammler>frosch fixed that
13:00<Ammler>(afaik) :-)
13:01<@Terkhen>Leftie: does that include "features" designed to cause bugs that are hard to notice?
13:01<frosch123>nope
13:01<Leftie>Hm, could do, i spose?
13:01<frosch123>i would bet for rb
13:01<Leftie>Anywho, cheers guys. Great little game you got going here, a real tribute to the original.
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13:02<Ammler>Alberth: but if not, it would be another reason to split static grfs from the rest
13:03<@Alberth>Ammler: the problem is also that non-static grfs may react on presence of static grfs, making them equally unsafe
13:03<Ammler>Alberth: shall I just repeat my last comment?
13:03<andythenorth>this isn't solvable
13:03<@Alberth>Ammler: the NewGRF spec is nicely designed to make as much amok as possible
13:04<andythenorth>we've established that the logic of the system renders this unsolvable
13:04<Ammler>andythenorth: for non-static grfs, static grfs aren't present
13:04<andythenorth>you might be right
13:04<andythenorth>so what can be a static grf?
13:04<Ammler>e.g. biggui
13:04<Ammler>the current static grfs
13:05<@planetmaker>the "test"tree grf
13:05<frosch123>whenever a non-static grfs tries to interact with a static grf, the static grf is disabled and treated as not-present
13:06<Ammler>frosch123: this is already how it works?
13:06<frosch123>yes
13:07<Ammler>what if a static grf tries to interact with non-static?
13:07<Ammler>might not be possible at all...
13:07<frosch123>reading is allowed
13:08<frosch123>writing anything is generally not allowed for static grfs
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13:09<@planetmaker>@base 10 16 543
13:09<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 21F
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13:11<Ammler>planetmaker: you really should update to linux :-)
13:11<@planetmaker>why?
13:11<Ammler>there you have around 10 tools which can convert dec to hex
13:12<Zuu>Does a station require >= 8 in production in order to "produce" a cargo?
13:12<Zuu>Why doesn't the land area info window display tile production?
13:13<@planetmaker>tile info window might then be more appropriate
13:13<frosch123>Zuu: the minimum amount to transfer to a station is grf defined, the default is 8
13:13<@planetmaker>but where would that info go otherwise?
13:13<Ammler>planetmaker: alt+f2 =hex(543)
13:13<frosch123>there is no such thing like production per tile
13:14<Zuu>The GUI reports that a station at a particular tile wourd produce passengers. The NoAI API on the other hand only reports a production of 7.
13:15<frosch123>Zuu: for production 1 is enough
13:15<frosch123>you confuse it with acceptance
13:15<Zuu>Thanks for the clarification.
13:15<frosch123>you're welcome :)
13:34<Zuu>I tried to introduce moving of the menu like the posted patch for TutorialAI does. However, that requires some additional text as the menu could dissapear out of the screen. So I'm not really sure how much the menu should be moved around.
13:35<Zuu>I guess it could move to Town A and stay there. Usually Town A is close to the center of the screen.
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22750 /trunk/src/lang/ (unfinished/persian.txt vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 118 changes by Peymanpn
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 2 changes by nglekhoi
13:48<@Alberth>Zuu: seems like a good idea; also start building at Town A
13:52<Zuu>The way the pathfinding works, it can't guarantee to build the road in a certain direction. The stations however will start to build in Town A.
13:54<@Alberth>Zuu: oh, it is not two calls?
13:55<@Alberth>I guess you are normally not that interested in the actual path :p
13:56<Zuu>It first makes 50-ish iterations from one end. If it doesn't fail by then, it restarts from the other end.
13:56<Zuu>This is to detect obvious problems at one end early on.
13:57<Zuu>But if A and B is very close, the path could be found before those 50-ish iterations run out.
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13:59<@Alberth>Ah, it works very different from what I expected. Interesting
13:59<Zuu>When a path is found, it is a single-linked list, thus building in the direction as it is stored makes more sense than trying to reverse it.
14:00<@Alberth>indeed
14:01<Zuu>The A* road pathfinder library doesn't have the code to restart pathfinding after some X iterations. That is something that each AI author has to come up with ontop of the pathfinder.
14:02<Zuu>Thus, I'm sure this tactic is not used by all AIs.
14:02<Rubidium>well... improve that library then ;)
14:03<Zuu>It's in SuperLib.RoadPathFinder :-)
14:03<Zuu>Which extends the road pathfinder library
14:05<@planetmaker>:-)
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14:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22751 /trunk/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Merge: documentation updates from 1.1
14:56<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22752 /branches/1.1/ (known-bugs.txt readme.txt): [1.1] -Update: forgotten documentation changes from trunk
14:58<Zuu>A new TutorialAI is out :-) (though it doesn't come with any new features other than moving the menu ^^)
15:00<Zuu>Doing an air chapter could pretty much be to copy-paste the bus chapter and change some SuperLib calls as well as rewriting the sign messages. :-)
15:05*Zuu have started to think about splitting SuperLib into a low-lever and a high-level library where the lower layer would probably stay and a higher level would be extracted to a new library. This way perhaps the lower level stuff could survive for longer time without updates. Then only the higher layer would (hopefully) need to be updated for each new AI release.
15:06<Zuu>But that is just initial thoughts. Will probably take time before it is turned into action :-)
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15:50<Ragnoff>good afternoon everyone (at least afternoon here).
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15:51<Ragnoff>I have been attempting to post my first story on the forums, I believe images should be To 800x600, correct?
15:51<jonty-comp>if they are larger then they'll be links instead of in-line
15:51<@planetmaker>^
15:51<Wolf01>I think the only requirement is to not make jpg screenshots :P
15:52<@planetmaker>and to better attach them to the forums than using 3rd-party file hoster
15:52<Ragnoff>have that's what I thought, but my look at one of my own threads I had one image that was larger the did not appear in as a link
15:52<Zuu>It is also a good idea to only include the part of the screenshot that is relevant.
15:52<Ragnoff>because of that I started posting the other images that were larger as URL links rather than IMG
15:52<Zuu>Reduces size => lower bandwidth usage
15:52<@planetmaker>Ragnoff: showing large images inline sucks
15:52<Ragnoff>I am trying to do that Zuu, one of the reason for the larger images at first just introduced the reason
15:53<@planetmaker>you can attach them locally just as well
15:53<@planetmaker>--> better accessibility
15:53<Ragnoff>I wasn't sure how much space is available for local attachments, which is why had linked in the photo bucket. Is it better to attach them locally?
15:53<@planetmaker>yes
15:53<Ragnoff>Okay, I guess I can go through and redo these
15:53<@planetmaker>(or I won't see them anyway :-P )
15:53<Ragnoff>I wanted to ask before I got too involved in this1
15:54<Zuu>Indeed. Then tt-forums will only inline them if they fit in 800x600 and will automatically not break the tables for any users.
15:54<Zuu>Larger images will still be available through a link.
15:54<Ragnoff>I saw I could not drag and drop an image into the post, do I use the attached files feature?
15:55<Zuu>You will have use the attached files feature.
15:55<Ragnoff>okay, let me go reedit my first post and see if it comes out correctly.
16:00<Ragnoff>okay, I think in the long run this will be quicker as I do not need to post something the photo bucket first and then get the link. the only disadvantage to this method is all the images seem to appear at the bottom of the post (unless there's a way to adjust that) so I will pretty much need a separate post each time I want to display an image before moving onto the next thing I'm commenting abou
16:00<Ragnoff>t
16:00<@planetmaker>you can inline them
16:00<Zuu>You can put them inline after you have uploaded them.
16:01<Zuu>Only the attachments that have not been inlined will appear at the bottom.
16:02<Ragnoff>okay, I see. So I upload the attachments first and then add each one to the post using the place in line button when I get to the relevant part of the post! I was looking for adoption before I had uploaded the images.
16:03<@planetmaker>mind you can only attach 3 per posting
16:03<Ragnoff>This is the first time I've done images in this manner, the only other times I've attempted to show images the forums required you linked to an off-site area like photo bucket
16:04<@planetmaker>if it's an image-story in the screenshot section or so... you can double-post w/o being called-off for it
16:04<@planetmaker>this forum is different, yes ;-)
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16:05<Ragnoff>it is in the screenshot section, I was attempting to make the story of a transport company starting in about 1920. I've been enjoying messing with things as I've gotten back. I probably started and abandoned two dozen games in the last week and half
16:05<@planetmaker>:-)
16:06<Ragnoff>I decided I wanted to play game that started off using ships more than trains with the assumption that eventually the ships would not be as efficient, this is the story about that attempt.
16:06<@planetmaker>did you use FISH ship set? :-)
16:07<Ragnoff>yes!
16:07<Ragnoff>I'm going to copy from my quote the NewGRF list i am using: I am using the following set of NewGRFs. Pikka's Basic Industries version 1.5 and the additional Brick Chain and Early Houses 2.0beta for the economy. US Town Names 1.0, New Trees, and Combined North American Signals v1.1 for appearance and theme. Aviators Aircraft (AV8) v1.81, eGRVTS v1.0, HEQS 1.2.0, FISH 9.2 and NARS2.03 for vehicles.
16:08<Ragnoff>I know I need to learn a fair amount more about these, the ability to have these at all is a brand-new toy and the last time I looked at any version of TTD
16:08<Ragnoff>I started out trying to play scenarios but generally found that I was starting scenarios with no vehicles available (for example Hawaii)
16:10<Zuu>My one and only scenario "Connection" should work as it has no broken NewGRF settings as far as I know.
16:10<Zuu>Hopefully all NewGRFs are on bananas. If not, the #openttdcoop GRF pack should have the remaining NewGRFs.
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16:11<Zuu>(the gamelog of that scenario is clean)
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16:12<Zuu>Only a few advanced setting changes, but nothing critical for NewGRFs. I played it as late as last week without problems.
16:14<Ragnoff>I think the problem the the scneriors I was playing were created when you could easily add NewGRFs after loading the scenario. The ones like Hawaii start before 1950 but did not include any vehicle set NewGRFs so there are no vehicles of any type! I will try the connection one though that you mentioned.
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16:15<Zuu>For scenarios that *only* start before the default vehicles arrive, you can easily use the year cheat to "fix" them.
16:15<KittenKoder>Or edit the scenario.
16:15<Zuu>The big problem are scenarios where the author has added/removed NewGRFs after the scenario was created.
16:16<Zuu>Pulling down the console and typing "gamelog" will reveal any such actions.
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16:25<Ragnoff>okay, I have fixed all of the images. I'm glad I got some advice before I got much further! In many ways this is much easier.
16:25<@planetmaker>good that you see it that way :-)
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17:36<frosch123>night
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17:56<@Terkhen>good night
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19:12<Wolf01>'night
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19:42<Sc00by22>Anybody else having problems with the 1.1.2 server on Linux? I'm getting this: "error while loading shared libraries: libicui18n.so.44"
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19:43<Eddi|zuHause>this is typically an error when you installed the wrong package
19:44<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. ubuntu 11.4 version on 10.10 or other way round
19:45<Sc00by22>I'm using the generic build for centos
19:45<Sc00by22>1.1.1 is running fine
19:45<Sc00by22>The only file I've got is libicui18n.so.36
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>which exact binary did you download?
19:46<Sc00by22>Linux Generic Binaries (i686, 32bit) (gzip archive)
19:46<+glx>I though generic builds where linked statically
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the compile farm was misconfigured?
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium might know such stuff
19:47<Sc00by22>I'm not the one compiling so I don't know :S
19:47<Sc00by22>I guess I could just symlink my .36 file to 44
19:47<Sc00by22>but that's a bit of a hack
19:47<+glx>with libicu ?
19:47<+glx>good luck :)
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>that's unlikely to work
19:48<+glx>this stupid lib adds version number in function names
19:49<Sc00by22>Heh sym linking shuts it up but then it errors on a new file, and no doubt, more after that
19:50<+glx>luckily it's still a RC ;)
19:52<Sc00by22>eh? it got a stable release today
19:52<+glx>ha righ
19:52<+glx>@topic set 1 1.1.2
19:52-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
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22:42<Pikka>orudge what have you done to pikkawiki
22:43<Pikka>http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
22:45<Pikka>apparently it is a bug in certain versions of PHP, did you change it?
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 15 00:00:29 2011