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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-15

---Logopened Mon Aug 15 00:00:29 2011
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00:34<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: maybe the params for statically building the generic binaries is missing
00:35<Rubidium>but well... don't have time to look at that now
00:37<Rubidium>though I hoped some had found it in the month of RCs
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01:51<@planetmaker>moin
02:02<pjpe>you missed a day
02:02<pjpe>didn't say it yesterday
02:02<pjpe>>:|
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02:52<@orudge>Pikka: do you not read the news forum, eh?
02:52<@orudge>it has been upgraded to PHP 5.3
02:52<Pikka>no I do not
02:52<Pikka>oh
02:52<@orudge>if you've not updated your wiki in about two years, that may be why
02:53<Pikka>I guess that may be the problem
02:53<Pikka>I will have to dig out how to upgrade the wiki, what a bother
02:53<@orudge>well
02:53<@orudge>it's relatively straightforward
02:53<@orudge>I can potentially do it for you later if you wish
02:53<Pikka>I potentially wish
02:53<@orudge>mainly because it's arguably easier for me to just wget the new version, replace the config file, wham bam thank you stan
02:54<Pikka>it is, it is
02:54<Pikka>up to the point where it falls over in a heap, at least :)
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04:52<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:55<Rubidium>moin Terkhen
04:55<Rubidium>oooh... even early frosch123 ;)
04:55<Rubidium>quak!
04:57<frosch123>moin rubidium :)
04:58<frosch123>can someone read the footnote on xkcd?
05:00<@planetmaker>the * NEJn, Aug 10, 2011?
05:00<@planetmaker>maybe it's a T instead of a J
05:00<@planetmaker>dunno
05:01<frosch123>"Northeast Environmental Justice Network (NEJN)"?
05:01<Rubidium>New England Journal of Medicine?
05:01<frosch123>sounds more plausible
05:02<@planetmaker>n like medicine?
05:02<frosch123>it could be a M
05:04<@planetmaker>hm, likely: "original articles
05:04<@planetmaker>Prevention of HIV-1 Infection with Early Antiretroviral Therapy"
05:04<Rubidium>I just searched for some keywords with that date and they refered to that
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05:50<Pikka>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=56247 <- has he got the wrong version, or is something more sinister afoot?
05:53<frosch123>the compile farm is new, maybe just noone tested the rcs
05:53<frosch123>the linux-generic builds do not work either since noone tested them :p
05:53<Pikka>hooray :)
05:54<Pikka>well 32-bit win7 works, I'm pleased to say :P
05:54<frosch123>well, that should be the same binary he should have used
05:55<@Terkhen>unless he downloaded the 64bit version :)
05:55<@planetmaker>maybe the CF now compiles for i686 instead of i386 or something
05:55<@planetmaker>and he has a cpu unsupported by that
05:55<@planetmaker>but I was always scared of compiling on windows ;-)
05:55<frosch123>anyway, windows builds are totally unknown to me :) recently i was told there is an option in the installer to not install language packs
05:56<frosch123>while i was blaming people they deleted them :p
05:56<@planetmaker>:-O there is?!
05:56*Pikka has never seen the installer so I wouldn't know
05:56<frosch123>planetmaker: no idea, someone said that
05:58<Rubidium>frosch123: the generic binaries will work... if you got the right libraries loaded; they just didn't get statically linked into the binary
05:59<Rubidium>yes, the windows installer allows you to not install the translations
05:59<Rubidium>anyhow, on windows compiler wise it went from vs2008 to vs2010
06:00<Rubidium>but that should cause any problem as far as I know
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06:14<+michi_cc>Rubidium: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/astebner/archive/2007/10/17/5502005.aspx
06:15<+michi_cc>VS 2010 seems to write OS version 5.02 to the exe file which Windows 2000 won't read.
06:15<+michi_cc>And for more fun: http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/details/473978/vs2010s-c-runtime-library-introduces-dependencies-which-prevent-execution-on-windows-2k
06:16<+michi_cc>Openttd.exe now binds to EncodePointer from kernel32.dll which was only added in Windows XP SP2
06:18<@Terkhen>oh :(
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06:21<+michi_cc>You should be able to change the version to 5.00 using the linker setting "MinimumRequiredVersion" (didn't test it though), but that won't help with the missing EncodePointer
06:21<@planetmaker>how "nice"
06:26<+michi_cc>So unless you recompile the CRT lib or do some hacky hacks by providing stubs for EncodePointer/DecodePointer (which might break whatever is depending on them) Visual Studio 2010 is Windows XP SP2 or later only.
06:27<+michi_cc>If somebody wants to have a go: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2484511/can-i-use-visual-studio-2010s-c-compiler-with-visual-studio-2008s-c-runtime :)
06:34<@Terkhen>it might be simpler to compile a different version with mingw, although messy regarding what version to download
06:36<+michi_cc>Even simply would probably be to just revert to using VS 2008
06:37<@Terkhen>that too :P
06:49<Rubidium>michi_cc: so we'd just change the installer and website saying it's for XP/Vista/7 and not mention 2000
06:51<Rubidium>michi_cc: if simply includes reinstalling the windows VM, then yes... it's simply that ;(
06:51<Rubidium>for varying levels of simply ofcourse
06:53<Rubidium>in my opinion it would be easier to let 2000 users use the 9x binary (or let them compile themselves if they really need unicode)
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07:01*Terkhen agrees
07:01<@Terkhen>2000 is old enough to put it in the same basket than 95/98
07:03<__ln__>than or as or with
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>"alswie"
07:07<__ln__>how many 2000 users do "we" have anyway?
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>apparently more than OS/2 and MorpOS users combined...
07:10<@planetmaker>those crowds...
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07:24<@Terkhen>bbl
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07:40<Eddi|zuHause>http://img01.lachschon.de/images/113926_erratet_die_browser.jpg
07:41<MNIM>muh. don't think Ill be able to guess the bottom one.
07:48<Sc00by22>IE
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08:40<Coke>Is there any way to tell my grf (through nml) that it does not affect any saved data or server/client compatibility? (it's just an UI change)
08:40<Coke>(saved data = savegame)
08:41<@planetmaker>indirectly
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>no, but you can tell openttd to try treat it as such by inserting it into the [newgrf-static] section
08:41<@planetmaker>you may only use the replace and replace_new commands to bring sprites into the game
08:42<@planetmaker>and then what eddi said
08:42<Coke>ive added a paremeter and a big if containing replace
08:42<Coke>in the else is another replace, but it doesnt seem to work properly
08:43<@planetmaker>static newgrfs can only be added in the openttd.cfg
08:43<@planetmaker>there's no gui interface
08:44<Coke>im trying to find info on how to change the ui in nml
08:45<Coke>ive added a parameter to the grf, but it'd be nice to have a toggle in ui
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>in the "grf" section, you need to put "param" sections
08:45<Coke>like I said, I've already added the parameter
08:46<Coke>but I want it in the in-game UI
08:46<Coke>preferrably under "transparency" options
08:46<@planetmaker>you can add a newgrf as static, or not
08:46<@planetmaker>there is no UI. nothing you can do via grf about that
08:46<Coke>but I have a big gui grf installed that doubles the size of the icons
08:46<@planetmaker>yes, it'd be nice to have a static section in the newgrf GUI
08:46<@planetmaker>yes
08:46<@planetmaker>that would work (also) as static one
08:47<@planetmaker>but of course it overwrites the same sprites ;-)
08:47<Coke>but no way to add an extra icon in the transparency menu?
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>i think you want something totally different than you say you want.
08:47<@planetmaker>if you load your grf later
08:47<Coke>no, I want an option (like making station names transparent or invisible) for my own setting
08:47<@planetmaker>Coke, modifying the *layout* of the GUI is not a newgrf task
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>that cannot be done by grf
08:48<Coke>ok.
08:48<Coke>is it possible in any way to change a grf variable in game from user actions?
08:48<@planetmaker>bigGUI also has not such option. It's either active or not
08:48<@planetmaker>no
08:48<Coke>ok. nevermind then.
08:48<@planetmaker>only when starting a new game
08:49<@planetmaker>I'm afraid that that also will never be possible. Except maybe for static newgrfs
08:49<Coke>is it better to make many small png's or just use one big? does openttd reuse a loaded png if it's mentioned several times in one grf?
08:49<@planetmaker>that depends on the newgrf compiler
08:49<@planetmaker>openttd uses the images as found in the grf
08:49<Coke>what does nmlc do?
08:49<@planetmaker>it's not aware of what the sprite actually shows
08:50<@planetmaker>nmlc... might do one or the other.
08:50<Coke>hehe.
08:50<@planetmaker>it depends on the situation
08:50<Coke>i'll just make smaller ones
08:55<Coke>hm, looks from the authors gfx reference that the pre signals only range from 47-48
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>"Whether i can remember the construction of the wall? for sure! and i will never forgive Hadrian for that!" (Jopie Heesters)
08:55<Coke>what does it include?
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08:56<Coke>no id's for individual pre signal sprites?
08:56<@planetmaker>uhm... ?
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08:56<@planetmaker>some signals might be "new" sprites
08:56<@planetmaker>Probably all new signal sprites must be replaced at once
08:56<Coke>i think those are. im looking at the opengfx extra
08:57<Coke>oh
08:57<@planetmaker>then it's new
08:57<Coke>i wonder what the 47 and 48 stands for
08:57<Coke>there are three types.
08:57<Coke>two baked into one? which one?
08:57<+michi_cc>Rubidium: I don't have a Windows 2000 around to test, but http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/fix_vs100.patch should do the trick (and the resulting exe does work on my Win 7).
08:58<@planetmaker>Coke, I still don't know which file you look at...
09:00<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#block-replacement-replacenew <-- you may want to look at that, too
09:01<@Belugas>hello
09:01<@planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:01<@Belugas>sir planetmaker :)
09:01<@Belugas>i salute you
09:02<Coke>planetmaker: what do you mean?
09:03<@planetmaker>I mean you talk of *some numbers* in *some file* without context - and expect others to make sense of it
09:03<@planetmaker>if you expect answers, you need to link the code you talk about.
09:05<@planetmaker>or if not link, then paste
09:05<@planetmaker>(in a paste service, not here. Allow for some context)
09:08<Coke>are the path block new or old?
09:09<@planetmaker>new
09:09<@planetmaker>only the very boring block signals are old
09:10<Coke>hm. 48 sprites in pre_signals
09:10<Coke>that's three signals, i dont think block path is in it
09:10<Coke>think it's entry, exit and combo, no?
09:10<@planetmaker>as the name says: _pre_ signals. Not path signals
09:11<Coke>so what type is used to replace the path block signal if it's new?
09:11<Coke>theres one called PRE_SIGNAL_SEMAPHORE_PBS, but im not working with semaph's
09:13<@planetmaker>PRE_SIGNAL_SEMAPHORE_PBS
09:14<@planetmaker>means you got them all
09:14<@planetmaker>@calc (1+3+2)*8*2
09:14<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 96
09:14<@planetmaker>@calc (1+3+2)*8*2*2
09:14<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 192
09:14<@planetmaker>I obviously miss some
09:16<Coke>when I look at the graphics files there are only path and path one way in a single png
09:16<@planetmaker>doesn't mean that a single sprite block only references a single png
09:18<@planetmaker>read the source code... sprites/nfo/extra/extra-signals.pnfo
09:18<Coke>i did
09:18<Coke>but what type to use? with normal replace I just put the start ID
09:19<@planetmaker>As said before... use replace_new and the PRE_SIGNAL_SEMAPHORE_PBS
09:20<@planetmaker>i.e. you need to replace ALL signals, iirc
09:20<@planetmaker>which is 240 sprites
09:21<Coke>hm. most of those are unused or toyland
09:21<Coke>i just need to replace the default pbs and presignals
09:22<@planetmaker><planetmaker> i.e. you need to replace ALL signals, iirc. Or no signal replacement
09:22<Coke>yeah i know. that sort of sucks since the old system is more versatile
09:23<@planetmaker>Oh, the new system allows you to replace the "new" sprites also with an offsets. But signals are old ;-)
09:23<@planetmaker>but still require replace_new :-P
09:24<Coke>if you could add length/size along with that offset it'd be great
09:25<Coke>i'll just abandon my little project. works nice with block signals, but meh
09:26<Coke>wanted to make some new vehicles, but someone already made my favourite trains. :P
09:27<Hirundo>offsets are unfortunately only supported for the newest replacenew-block types, it's a limitation of the specs
09:28<@planetmaker>"weil niemand in den Urwald zog. und die Specs dort grade bog"
09:28<Coke>Bog!
09:28<Hirundo>@topic -1
09:28<@DorpsGek>Hirundo: topic [<channel>]
09:29<Coke>To sink, as into a bog; to submerge in a bog; to cause to sink and stick, as in mud and mire.
09:29<@planetmaker>@topic get -1
09:29<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: English only
09:29<@planetmaker>^^ Hirundo ;-)
09:29<Hirundo>indeed :P
09:29<@planetmaker>and that's why I put it into quotes
09:29<@planetmaker>it's not translatable
09:29<@planetmaker>I'm afraid
09:29<Coke>yeah i found an english word "bog" :)
09:29<@planetmaker>no word there is English :-P
09:30<Coke>so, do you guys play trains only?
09:31<Coke>(sometimes)
09:31<Coke>how do you guys gauge the value of distance vs time? say, in temperate climate
09:31<@planetmaker>I don't care
09:31<@planetmaker>but if I did, there's a price chart ingame
09:31<Coke>is there a way to calculate speed per square?
09:31<Coke>(from km/h or similar)
09:32<Hirundo>I make sure my first lines make a profit (based on past experience) and afterwards money is no issue
09:33<Coke>Yeah i usually do that too, but some of the more difficult train sets have speed limits as low as 45 km/h making the long runs less profitable
09:33<Hirundo>When choosing locations for drop stations, I tend to be more concerned with dividing traffic evenly across the map
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09:34<Coke>one problem ive run into is the masII ore car (swedish trains) only does 50km/h so I have to constantly make quadruple rails to get the faster steel trains going
09:35<@planetmaker>use waypoints
09:35<Coke>same for coal, making my normal daily bread a lot less profitable
09:35<Coke>I do
09:35<Coke>but quadruple rails cost twice as much as the dual ones :P
09:35<Coke>i usually use them for starter cash
09:36<+michi_cc>Coke: A vehicle running 128 km/h takes 16 ticks per tile on the diagonal (one game day has 74 ticks).
09:36<Coke>michi_cc: hmmm. math... eew
09:36<Coke>so 1/8th tile is one km
09:36<Coke>exactly.
09:37<@planetmaker>uhm... ?
09:38<Coke>hey. these trains aren't to scale ;)
09:38<+michi_cc>If you want to be really correct: it's actually 128 km/h-ish, with km/h-ish being mph/1.6, so not exactly km/h
09:38<Coke>michi_cc: what are the exact numbers in mph?
09:38<+michi_cc>s/mph/1.6/mph*1.6/
09:39<Coke>and is one mile 1.6 km in game?
09:39<Coke>(flat, that is)
09:40<Ammler>didn't he just tell you that?
09:40<Coke>im not sure if he's rounding it.
09:40<Ammler>does that matter? :-)
09:40<Coke>im not sure yet, haven't put any real numbers in.
09:41<@planetmaker>Coke, you need to calculate the ingame scale from velocity and time
09:41<@planetmaker>which gives you around 600km/tile ;-)
09:41<+michi_cc>16 ticks per tile at 128 internal speed units. 1 mph == 1.6 internal speed units == 1.609344 km/h
09:42<Coke>ill just use the full number
09:46<Eddi|zuHause><Coke> hey. these trains aren't to scale ;) <-- is your alternate name "Captain Obvious" by any chance? :p
09:49<Coke>hmm.
09:50<MNIM>hahahaha
09:50<MNIM>No, really?
09:50<Coke>For some reason the bomb explosion sprite remains.
09:50<Coke>There's an orange ball of flames which is shown even if quit/load
09:50<MNIM>Nah, I think Coke's real name is Tuvok.
09:52<Coke>Hm, normally being called a vulcan would be an honour, but Tuvok...
09:52<Sc00by22>Is there an RSS feed for the svn repo?
09:52<MNIM>hahahaha. trekkies... :P
09:53*MNIM points at DorpsGek
09:54<@planetmaker>dorpsgek is no RSS
09:55<@planetmaker>but... did you try clicking on the RSS button on the vcs page, Sc00by22 ?
09:55<@planetmaker>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/
09:55<Sc00by22>didn't know about that
09:55<Sc00by22>thanks
09:55<MNIM>He isn't, but he does notify you of the rss feed on irc
09:57<Coke>Hmm. Anyone else had the bug of the explosion sprites lingering?
09:57<MNIM>Coke: changed any newgrfs in-game per chance?
10:00<Coke>i removed them all and deleted my .openttd directory
10:01<@planetmaker>that doesn't unfix a messed-up savegame
10:01<@planetmaker>when changing newgrfs in-game
10:01<Coke>yeah.
10:01<Coke>it was a config setting of starting the game in paused mode XD
10:02<Coke>dunno why, must have been drunk when changing it.
10:02<Coke>never use pause
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10:15<mosi|work>anyone know if there is a way to disable antennas/transmitters/light houses on server map generation?
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10:19<Eddi|zuHause>make a scenario?
10:19<mosi|work>it's running on a headless linux server
10:20<mosi|work>dont really wana have to make a new scenario each time and load it every reset
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>make scenario on the client, move it to server
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really remember if there ever was such a setting
10:21<@Terkhen>maybe it is possible to create a NewGRF for that
10:21<@Terkhen>I don't remember such a setting
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>it should be fairly easy to patch the game to skip this step
10:22<mosi|work>never looked into actually making a NewGRF. might take a look later on though
10:23<@planetmaker>Terkhen, iirc not... though there's a slim chance that htey can be overridden as newobject. But I think not
10:23<mosi|work>there is one to replace them with rocks
10:24<mosi|work>but that still places them which is the main problem as they are totally unmoveable
10:24<@Terkhen>planetmaker: isn't it possible to create a object NewGRF that reduces their probabilities to zero or something like that?
10:25<@planetmaker>not sure. IFF one can re-define the default two or three objects: then yes
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>mosi|work: the question is, why is that really a problem?
10:25<mosi|work>they are just annoying, running a server for me and a few clan mates and nobody likes them :P
10:25<mosi|work>doing some teraforming and they always get in the way
10:26<@planetmaker>but last time I looked... I couldn't attach an action 2/3 to them
10:28<@Terkhen>changing the introduction date and end of life properties should do the trick
10:28<@Terkhen>I don't know if it is possible to do that for the default objects though
10:29<@planetmaker>"In action 0, you only specify IDs relative to the set"
10:30<@planetmaker>and no override property
10:31<@Terkhen>hmm... so you can't modify or disable the original objects?
10:32<@planetmaker>yup
10:34<@Terkhen>there should be a way
10:35<@planetmaker>would mean to add an override property, I guess
10:35<@planetmaker>and possibly a property or flag "place on map generation"
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10:39<Wolf01>hello
10:40<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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11:31<Coke>Is it weird if you listen to 8 hours of 8-bit era only music per day?
11:32<Coke>That is 64 of some undefined unit. 8-bit hours?
11:33<Coke>Anyway. :) I'm looking at timetables to space out my trains, if two trains pull up to the same station at the same time (multitrack station), will they remain n days during the same period or in sequence?
11:34<Coke>Is there a neeter way of spreading them out?
11:34<frosch123>Coke: 8 bit represent 256 values, not 64
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11:42<alexlivingstone>hello
11:43<KittenKoder>Hello
11:48<Coke>frosch123: i meant 8 hours of 8 bits
11:48<Coke>im quite a binary guy coming from a decade of assembler programming
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11:51<Coke>if i set the startdate in the timetable, say, week 1 in january, week 2 and 3, then add a 7 day stop, those three trains should be spaced out by 7 day intervals?
11:52<KittenKoder>1. overthinking something does not make you look smart, and 2. 64 does not fit into what you were saying at all.
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11:54<Coke>8 * 8 = 64
11:54<KittenKoder>But 8 bit != 8
11:54<Coke>8 hours of 8 bits are 64 bit hours
11:54<Coke>I think youre the one overthinking.
11:54<Coke>It was a joke, albeit bad.
11:55<KittenKoder>Timetables are not offsets.
11:56<KittenKoder>Basic explanation for them: http://wiki.openttd.org/Timetable
11:57<KittenKoder>Though road vehicles do not behave all the time because of the roads changing more, trains are more reliable and this technique works well.
12:00<Pinkbeast>Coke> Some patchpacks have automatic seperation for timetables, which sometimes works well and sometimes very badly
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12:01<supermop>hey
12:01<@Terkhen>hi supermop
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>Coke: timetables have a startdate and a roundtrip time. whenever the first station is reached, the roundtrip time is added to the startdate
12:01<@planetmaker>salut supermop
12:01<supermop>so i never use conditional orders,
12:01<supermop>but
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>so if you have a roundtrip time of 30 days, and 3 vehicles, you should set the start date for each vehicle 10 days apart
12:01<supermop>I thought of something it would be cool if they could do
12:02<Pinkbeast>Not even for servicing?
12:02<supermop>'go to order 1 is time is x'
12:02<supermop>or
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>so the first vehicle you set to 10th january, the second to 20th january, and the third to 30th january
12:02<Pinkbeast>Eddi> Doesn't this mess up using shared orders?
12:02<supermop>go to order 1 if number of cycles is less than x
12:02<KittenKoder>Actually, shared orders make it easier.
12:02<supermop>but that would require vehicle to count
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: why would it?
12:03<Pinkbeast>Hang on, I'm firing up OTTD to check what I mean...
12:03<supermop>bassically these are ideas to save me from having 100 + orders to timetable for my trains that run a 24 hour schedule
12:04<KittenKoder>o.O 24 hour schedule?
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: instead of shouting out random idea-fractions, you might want to make a full plan what the feature should look like
12:04<supermop>i dont know if i told anyone here i was doing that, but i had my computer freeze (due to something else, not ottd) while working on one tram line
12:05<supermop>and then lost hours of work on that, (my fault wasnt autosaving because the game was paused while i worked all that out)
12:06<Coke>Eddi|zuHause: thanks.
12:06<supermop>KittenKoder: I use the 24hr departure board patch, and then set my vehicles to follow those 'days'
12:07<Pinkbeast>What I'd like in orders is "go to depot and wait until condition is true" and a condition for "n platforms free at station X"
12:07<KittenKoder>Oh, a patch thing, don't know much about those.
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>Coke: the startdate is the arrival time at the first station, not the departure date
12:07<supermop>so that a tram leaves a yard and goes into service at say, 5:30 am, and runs until midnight or so,
12:08<supermop>in the mean time it is making several round trips of its route
12:09<supermop>but in order to get the behavior i want, the timetable needs to be 1440 minutes long
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: well, you could set your service interval to 24h
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>and use "if needs servicing" order
12:10<supermop>thats good for service, but does not let me keep it parked during the middle of the night
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: "if needs servicing, goto depot, go to waiting area, go to first order"
12:11<supermop>what if 24 hours goes by and it doesnt want to service?
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: service interval should be 24h minus time it takes to get to the depot
12:12<KittenKoder>I haven't tried, but can't you set a timetable count to "go to depot" orders like station loading?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>(which should be less than a full round trip
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>KittenKoder: nope, you cannot tell a vehicle to wait inside the depot for X time
12:12<KittenKoder>Okay.
12:12<supermop>would i risk having it go to the depot too early?
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: only if you deviate too much from the timetable, or send the vehicle to depot manually
12:13<supermop>hm
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i'm gone
12:14<KittenKoder>laters
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12:15<supermop>the other idea would be to have vehicles that run different routes at different times of day, eg a night bus, where one bus takes on extra stops at night, so that one route does the work of two or three day routes
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12:41<Coke>supermop: but a night is so short. 2s = one day, no?
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12:41<supermop>depends
12:42<supermop>with the departure board patch default settings
12:42<KittenKoder>Time mod patches can alter that.
12:42<supermop>you get about 24 'hours' over 3 calendar 'years'
12:43<supermop>the 'years' are going by just as fast as normal
12:43<Pinkbeast>Coke> You're thinking of the day that goes to make a financial year, but the departure board patch has a separate clock that runs from 0000 to 2400 over about an ingame month or three
12:44<supermop>but i get an extra clock giving 24 hour time not directly related to the years
12:44<supermop>which makes timetabling much, much, morre intuitive
12:45<KittenKoder>Wait .... was the chimera added to the 2cc base set or is the add-on a "special" version?
12:45<@planetmaker>it is part of modern versions iirc
12:45<KittenKoder>Because with both the add-on and the base set I now have to Chimera .... different stats, same time and country though.
12:46<KittenKoder>Aaah ... so the add-on is really no longer needed unless you want to different versions.
12:46*Belugas never plays with timetable.
12:46<supermop>kitten, you are working on monorail style maglevs?
12:46<KittenKoder>supermop, you mean my track?
12:47<Pinkbeast>I have no interest in writing timetables, but I like separation for pax/mail vehicles. I'd _like_ separation that works, but that may be a while off.
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12:47<supermop>Belugas: I never would have expected it, but the very very technical micromanagment i am causing for myself has given me my most fun game in years
12:47<KittenKoder>The maglev track I created is designed with the monorail style maglevs in mind, yes.
12:48<KittenKoder>The 2cc ones look really nice on it.
12:48<supermop>i think it comes from being in awe of (or sometimes incredibly frustrated by) the coordination of the New York Subway ever since I moved here
12:49<KittenKoder>Different aspects of TT games will attract different player types, the number of aspects available is probably why it's persisted for so long.
12:49<@Belugas>well, as long as your boat keeps on floating ;)
12:49<supermop>personally i'd like to make a set that had Alweg style monorails, monorail maglevs like transrapid, and channel maglevs like JR in it
12:50<Pinkbeast>Koder> True, but I do think trying to imitate prototypical operations is a hard row to furrow...
12:50<supermop>Belugas: I am also limiting myself to one depot only
12:50<KittenKoder>supermop, I am working on a sci-fi set, which will need different track styles, so if you are interested in seeing more variety in maglevs without losing the balance, I am open to suggestions.
12:50*Belugas might be from the old school, which would explain ;)
12:51<KittenKoder>Pinkbeast, realism in a game like TT is very difficult, at best you can get some realism, but yeah, the micromanagement in reality is difficult to do in the game.
12:51<supermop>ive been playing since 94 (only tto, never ttd), so i eventually burnt out on my old styles of play
12:52<KittenKoder>I personally like to lay in a decent network then let trains fly and watch most of the time.
12:52<KittenKoder>LOL Usually I only actually "play" until 1990.
12:52<Pinkbeast>Koder> I think the real killer is the time-and-distance scales. It's always tricky to build prototypical junctions when trains are about 8 miles long
12:53<supermop>1994 as in the year TTO came out
12:53<supermop>and I bought it with money I saved up instead of spending on Legos
12:53*KittenKoder was too old for Legos by 94
12:54<supermop>maybe if you mean 2094
12:54<KittenKoder>No, 1994
12:54<supermop>not too old for lego at 30, not too old for them at 100
12:54<KittenKoder>Was too busy working to play with them.
12:55<KittenKoder>.. but there's always time for video games and coding.
12:55<supermop>I do plan to stop playing by the time am 110
12:55<KittenKoder>LOL
12:55<KittenKoder>Meh, to each their own really, I'm just trolling there.
12:55<supermop>due to family probably refusing to bury me with them
12:56<KittenKoder>Okay, maybe I should do a replacement set for the standard OGFX maglevs.
12:56<supermop>could be good
12:56<KittenKoder>At least the graphics.
12:56<supermop>i really just get bothered by all non-multiple unit maglevs
12:57<KittenKoder>I wish the 2cc st would have replaced them.
12:57<@Terkhen>OpenGFX is always looking for better sprites, if you see something you don't like, feel free to try to improve it :)
12:59<KittenKoder>Aside from the offset problem, the coloring is .... well ... blech.
13:00<KittenKoder>But also with many of the new train sets, you don't have to change everything to maglev even with the breakdowns enabled.
13:00<@Terkhen>yes, many sprites can be improved
13:00<supermop>how about 'ogfx+ future' a set of futuristic vehicles that replace the defaults, but still fit well with standard ogfx sprites?
13:01<supermop>there are sprites that look good, and then there are sprites that look good with other sprites
13:01<@Terkhen>it does not fit with the ogfx+ theme, but I would like it
13:02<KittenKoder>Well, I prefer +sci-fi .... future is just so unpredictable, as sci-fi proves.
13:03<KittenKoder>Like, 1930's sci-fi trains appearing in 1960 .... which look cool, but fit in and are not unbalanced.
13:03<KittenKoder>About the only thing I really like about Maglev is that the newer sets with them look ... well ... cool.
13:04<KittenKoder>My favorite electric train is the TGV series.
13:04<KittenKoder>I love how they look.
13:04<@Terkhen>that would be nice too
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13:05<KittenKoder>I also like the BM73
13:06<KittenKoder>The Genesis is a nice looking diesel one.
13:06<KittenKoder>All my favorites are passenger trains though.
13:06<KittenKoder>LOL
13:07<KittenKoder>But then I guess it makes sense that passenger trains would be dressed up more than freight.
13:08<supermop>true
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13:09<supermop>lunch time, later
13:10<KittenKoder>bye for now
13:10*KittenKoder ponders ordering pizza.
13:10<opa_>hi
13:11<opa_>i have vbeen playing the vanilla version quite a while and was wondering if anyone could say somekind of collection of add-ons (grfs?) to make the game more interesting?
13:11<KittenKoder>FIRS
13:12<KittenKoder>It renewed my interest in freight.
13:12<KittenKoder>... and super long trains.
13:12<KittenKoder>However the FIRS industry set will require work with road vehicles.
13:13<@Terkhen>opa_: if you use a industry NewGRF such as FIRS you will also need NewGRF vehicle sets; since default vehicles will not be able to carry the new cargo types
13:13<@Terkhen>if you want something as similar as possible to the default vehicles, try OpenGFX+ Trains / OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles
13:14<@Terkhen>if you prefer something based on real vehicles, there are a lot of train sets out there that support all industry sets
13:17<opa_>thanks
13:17<opa_>i'll look for those
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13:31<@peter1138>nice
13:31<KittenKoder>Epic.
13:32<KittenKoder>Gah.
13:32<KittenKoder>I always lose interest in a game around 2040.
13:34<opa_>how much harder the game is with FIRS?
13:34<KittenKoder>Depends on the settings.
13:34<Pinkbeast>Not much, but you can't do the no-brainer "coal, power station" thing.
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13:35<KittenKoder>Set the parameters so that everything can close and primary production decreases without supplies .... that makes it more interesting.
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13:35<opa_>low towns and industries, hilly/very hilly, otherwise quite like default
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13:36<KittenKoder>Also turn on "allow multiple industries of the same type per town" .... then you can do industrial "complexes"
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13:36<KittenKoder>But you may also have to set number of industries to very low.
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13:37<opa_>why?
13:37<KittenKoder>Basically, play with the settings and parameters ... each combination will have different challenges to face.
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13:38<KittenKoder>Well, if you allow multiple industries of the same type, it seems to increase the number of industries ... don't know why, so if you want some track building room ...
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13:39<KittenKoder>I just noticed something, do level crossings go by the reserved tracks?
13:41<andythenorth>bongiorno
13:41<KittenKoder>Hihi
13:42*andythenorth ponders
13:42<KittenKoder>They do!
13:42<KittenKoder>Cool beans.
13:42<andythenorth>not many Italians producing ottd stuff?
13:42<andythenorth>mostly a northern europe thing?
13:42<KittenKoder>Or at least not many Italian NewGRFs.
13:42<KittenKoder>I saw one.
13:43<KittenKoder>buckethead is making it, looks like.
13:44<KittenKoder>I figured out the problem with my depots .... forgot to set the raytracing shading to cel shading.
13:45<KittenKoder>That's why I kept winding up with such horrible coloring for them.
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22753 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 60 changes by Peymanpn
13:45<KittenKoder>Italian passenger trains look cool!
13:48<KittenKoder>I have one serious pixel problem with my tracks that I can't fix ... it just won't fix no matter what I try ... >.<
13:49<KittenKoder>But looking at other tracks, they have it to.
13:50<KittenKoder>The upperleft-lowerright does not align right with the vertical at the lower point.
13:51<KittenKoder>Mine just looks more prominent because of the solid coloring and style.
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14:10<KittenKoder>Okay, this sucks.
14:10<KittenKoder>Trying to find actual science fiction references to trains online seems much harder than I thought it would.
14:12<KittenKoder>... and now I find a great resource. LOL Whine about something and it fixes itself.
14:14<KittenKoder>Hmm .... superconductor maglev.
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14:17<andythenorth>http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=371927&nseq=0
14:17<andythenorth>really, why
14:17<andythenorth>why would you think it was necessary to do that :P
14:18<KittenKoder>To do what?
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14:18<andythenorth>build that railroad
14:18<andythenorth>it's awesome, but reallly....
14:18<KittenKoder>LOL
14:19<KittenKoder>Some people REALLY wanted trains through their towns.
14:19<KittenKoder>Even one building sized towns. :p
14:19<Coke>i cant for the life of me find the area catchment display option in advanced settings
14:19<Coke>(that blue grid when you place stations)
14:19<Coke>ah, coverage highlight
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14:22<KittenKoder>This one looks cool: http://www.joelfletcher.com/models-props_files/Isobar-futuristic-train.html
14:23<KittenKoder>Freight sci-fi trains: http://www.fantasytrains.net/mtp/gom1.jpg
14:24<KittenKoder>:p
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14:27<@Yexo>good evening
14:27<andythenorth>hola Yexo
14:27<andythenorth>had fun? :)
14:27<@Yexo>a lot :)
14:28<@Terkhen>welcome back Yexo :)
14:28<@Yexo>thank you :)
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14:39<Zuu>Hello Yexo
14:39<KittenKoder>What was the maglev style tracks included in the OGFX called?
14:39<KittenKoder>The technical name.
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14:41<andythenorth>maglev?
14:41<KittenKoder>EDS, right?
14:41<KittenKoder>Versus the monorail style/
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14:46<@Terkhen>I don't remember any technical name for them :P
14:47<@Terkhen>if they are based on a real kind of track, the answer might be buried somewhere in the opengfx thread
14:48<KittenKoder>I was digging through the wiki on real maglevs, EDS and EMS are the propulsion systems ... >.<
14:48<KittenKoder>Doesn't seem to have any mention of a technical name for the two types, just "monorail like" and "the other".
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14:50<Rubidium>KittenKoder: the propulsion is tied to the track type
14:50<KittenKoder>I was thinking of making an actual distinction between them, and making the monorail like one also capable of handling the monorail trains as well.
14:51<KittenKoder>Rubidium, I gathered that the two would be different types of tracks, but there are two different track structures as well, one is like a canal, the other like a monorail, and was wondering if there was a technical name for this difference.
14:52<KittenKoder>I am probably over thinking this all though.
14:52<Rubidium>for EDS you need the canal form as the magnets are at the outer side of the train (left and right)
14:53<KittenKoder>Aha, thanks, that actually does help out.
14:53<Rubidium>EDS is used for propulsion and levitation
14:53<Rubidium>EMS is only for levitation; they need another method for propulsion
14:54<KittenKoder>Third type is Stabilized permanent magnet suspension, SPM
14:55<KittenKoder>Wondering if it would be too much work to actually make the trains from the other sets unique based on this information, or not.
14:57<KittenKoder>I want the sci-fi ones to use it .... but that's because I'm a sucker for such minor details.
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15:02<KittenKoder>The strange thing is that most sci-fi trains, even from more modern writers, are standard rails.
15:02<KittenKoder>LOL
15:04<KittenKoder>The concept is looking more like fantasy trains than science fiction.
15:06<KittenKoder>I need to play around with NuTracks a bit, see what they are like.
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15:13<__ln__>http://herbsutter.com/2011/08/12/we-have-an-international-standard-c0x-is-unanimously-approved/
15:17<+glx>will be in MSVC2015 ;)
15:17<KittenKoder>Interesting.
15:17<__ln__>glx: unless that's HTML5 only :)
15:18<+glx>MSVC2010 is still not C99 compatible, so...
15:18<KittenKoder>NuTracks keeps giving me an invalid ID error.
15:20<supermop>hmm draw sprites or play ottd?
15:20<supermop>or draw real buildings...
15:21<KittenKoder>Do all three! :p
15:22<KittenKoder>I'm going to try hand drawing my maglev tracks, see if I can get better results .... or worse.
15:23<KittenKoder>Probably worse.
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15:44<KittenKoder>Hmm ... changing the palette for a GRF is a certain savegame break, huh.
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15:48*KittenKoder suddenly wants to watch Ghosts of Mars
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15:49<opa_>is there any difference how many pumps i get into stations area in FIRS
15:57<@Terkhen>opa_: no, as long as you get enough to get cargo in your station
16:03<opa_>thanks
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16:05<KittenKoder>I love how the FIRS oil wells look
16:06<andythenorth>they're just original oil well sprites, but scattered ;)
16:06<andythenorth>they're not even animated :P
16:06<KittenKoder>That
16:06<KittenKoder>That's what I mean.
16:06<KittenKoder>Should say how they lay out instead.
16:07<KittenKoder>Especially when you get a couple, right next to a city, then you can feed them all into one .... makes it look really cool.
16:08<KittenKoder>Even though they probably shouldn't wind up so close to cities.
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16:10<KittenKoder>I am actually liking the whole industrial complex concept.
16:11<@Terkhen>they are not animated? is there an open issue for that?
16:11<@Terkhen>when I reach them I could add the animation
16:12*andythenorth looks
16:12<andythenorth>Terkhen: that was the largest argument in favour of nml :P
16:13<KittenKoder>lol
16:13<KittenKoder>After it goes to NML I may see if I can help contribute something.
16:14*KittenKoder is not the best team player but can at least try.
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17:37*KittenKoder has got to stop relying on default values
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18:35<Razmir>Hi, I need an advice. How can ban IP XXX.YYY/16?
18:35<Razmir>XXX.YYY.* or XXX.YYY/16 did not work for me in the banlist
18:39<@Terkhen>sorry, I don't know that :)
18:39<@Terkhen>good night
18:41<Wolf01>'night
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19:28<Razmir>nevermind, solved using iptables...
19:29<KittenKoder>???
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>Razmir: have you tried something like xxx.yyy.0.0?
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>like xxx.yyy.0.0/16 maybe
19:31<KittenKoder>I'm of the mind that it's impossible to line up everything perfectly and I should stop being such a perfectionist.
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21:19<Eddi|zuHause>"Auckland (New Zealand) saw the first snow in 80 years"
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21:29<KittenKoder>Cool beans.
21:45<Pikka>especially if you sit down on the ground
21:54<KittenKoder>LOL
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22:13<KittenKoder>How's this for a lev1 replacement? http://rpgcn.com/backups/lev1.png
22:13<KittenKoder>Shrunk down it should get the illusion of more detail.
22:14<KittenKoder>Blue = company color 1, Green = company color 2 ....
22:14<KittenKoder>.... and now everyone's probably asleep. >.<
22:20<Pikka>interesting
22:21<Pikka>dunno about the green stripes, makes it look a bit like it's held together with tape :P
22:22<KittenKoder>LOL
22:22<KittenKoder>As I said, it will be second company color or darker company color.
22:22<KittenKoder>Though .... the one across the top .... that does seem a bit too much.
22:23<KittenKoder>Maybe if I made it go lengthwise?
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22:29<KittenKoder>Okay, color touch up, and stripe going length wise: http://rpgcn.com/backups/lev1.png
22:29<KittenKoder>You may have to refresh.
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22:31<KittenKoder>Trying to make it so it also fits with at least a few other train sets.
22:35<KittenKoder>It converts to the DOS palette nicely with these colors.
22:39<Pikka>cool
22:43<KittenKoder>Hmm ... taking it to the right size loses a little more detail than I thought .... gotta make a bit more contrast.
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22:52<KittenKoder>Here it is with the correct size: http://rpgcn.com/backups/lev1-small.png
22:53<KittenKoder>Something just doesn't look right on it.
22:55<KittenKoder>Looks more like a bus than a train engine.
23:07<Pinkbeast>It might be worth looking at it in context (ie, on the appropriate kind of tracks)
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23:08<KittenKoder>Well, the default maglev tracks it would work ....
23:11<KittenKoder>I think I found the problem, the front end was angled too much so when I rendered it to the correct size it looked wrong.
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23:16<KittenKoder>Also ... why didn't anyone point out that I had used red on the front end? >.<
23:17<KittenKoder>JK of course ... but that was part of the problem to.
23:21<pjpe>lessthanthree is your server down or has my dns gone crazy
23:22<pjpe>ain't even dns
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23:44<KittenKoder>I could just do this for replacing the sprites, huh? http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#block-replacement
---Logclosed Tue Aug 16 00:00:01 2011