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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-17

---Logopened Wed Aug 17 00:00:32 2011
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00:48<pjpe>is it just me or does the openttd web server through a 502 every night at around this time
00:56-!-Eddi|zuHause2 [~johekr@p54B75F06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
01:01<KittenKoder>Probably system maintenance or something.
01:01<KittenKoder>Though not on the OTTD web server, necessarily.
01:03<pjpe>lessthanthree it's back up
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02:47<@planetmaker>moin
02:54<KittenKoder>hihi
02:54<KittenKoder>I was needing you a while ago ... but now I think I have a solution that works better for me. :p
02:55<KittenKoder>Now, I just need to figure out the custom tags part.
02:56<@planetmaker>"my" makefile framework has the advantage that it it understood by the DevZone's compile farm, should you want to host and (nightly) build your NewGRFs there
02:58<@planetmaker>and it automatically takes care of versioning of NewGRFs. Which IMHO is the most important part
02:58<@planetmaker>using the repo's version as newgrf's version, but allowing a tag to act as displayed release version
02:59<KittenKoder>Yeah, but I have problems with it, primarily, it doesn't work for me.
02:59<@planetmaker>and adding install and bundle targets for easy use
02:59<@planetmaker>wow, that's a good error description
02:59<KittenKoder>LOL
02:59<KittenKoder>Well, I bumble around, get one thing to work, then I get another problem.
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03:00<KittenKoder>Last one "no rule definition for some.png file"
03:00<KittenKoder>I don't like editing or modifying another person's source, thus why I have never been a great team player.
03:01<@planetmaker>either you're mixing case or that shouldn't happen
03:01<KittenKoder>Not mixing cases, checked all that.
03:02<KittenKoder>The file I am using as a test case is really the first NML I wrote, just broken into a few files so I can test it.
03:02<@planetmaker>that's what the framework with the makefile is made for
03:02<@planetmaker>it expects *.nml and *.pnml files
03:02<dihedral>morning :-)
03:02<@planetmaker>and searches their includes for further deps
03:02<@planetmaker>moin dih
03:03<dihedral>hey ho planetmaker
03:03<KittenKoder>Other than that, almost no changes to it were made. The Makefile.config I modified for it, had to change a lot of other values before I got that far, then the png rule error hit and I just got annoyed.
03:03<KittenKoder>It's all *.pnml.
03:04<KittenKoder>So, I'm just making a simple Makefile. ;) It's not you, just other people's source code has never worked right for me unless I use it unchanged, and I mean completely unchanged.
03:04<@planetmaker>sucks to be you then ;-)
03:05<KittenKoder>Meh.
03:05<KittenKoder>I can copy-pasta bits, or use it as examples, so it's still good.
03:05<dihedral>copy-pasta ? :-)
03:06<@planetmaker>I still would like to see why it failed for you... do you have a zip of the dir?
03:06<KittenKoder>Not the one that was causing the error anymore, sorry, it's just such a common event for me I just started over on reflex.
03:07<KittenKoder>The swedish rails original file works almost perfectly, but it's outdated compared to the new nmlc and has a few errors in it from that, but the Makefile works fine as long as I don't change anything for that.
03:08<KittenKoder>The problem with make that has always bothered me, the very useless error reporting.
03:09<appe>swedish rails?
03:09<@planetmaker>you can change all code in it...
03:09<appe>that sounds interesting
03:09<@planetmaker>appe: it's a trackset
03:09<KittenKoder>I see where you write to the tag file, but I don't see where you create it .... but I'm REALLY behind in makefile code, too many years of IDEs.
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03:10<@planetmaker>replacing the two default rail tracks with "better" tracks, thus that they better work with all kinds of ground
03:10<@planetmaker>and snow
03:10<@planetmaker>and roads and so on :-)
03:10<appe>oh
03:10*appe is swedish and would like to compare it.
03:11<KittenKoder>It's nice .... not my personal favorite, but the source archive is a great learning tool.
03:11<@planetmaker>it's all drawn by a Swede ;-)
03:11<Markk>appe: Are you sure about that? :o
03:11<Markk>appe: You're from Småland you know.
03:11<KittenKoder>Bah!
03:11<appe>Markk: småland = sverige.
03:11<@planetmaker>KittenKoder: it was the first NML NewGRF ever ;-)
03:11<appe>Markk: skåne = germania.
03:12<Markk>appe: :D
03:12<appe>Markk: (not germany)
03:12<appe>:D
03:12<KittenKoder>That explains it.
03:12<KittenKoder>Gathering it was also a testing ground.
03:12<@planetmaker>yes. It needs indeed some code updates
03:13<@planetmaker>maybe when I come around to re-touching tunnels
03:13<@planetmaker>my graphics artist vanished :-(
03:15<KittenKoder>Aaw.
03:15<KittenKoder>I'm more of a code explorer than anything.
03:15<KittenKoder>Any chance to learn something new.
03:16<KittenKoder>Ironically, the code I use for work most often now was only because I was "oooh, new languages to play with."
03:17<KittenKoder>Why can't I find where you invoked the rule for tags!?!?!?! >.< LOL
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03:20<KittenKoder>Wait, I see it now.
03:21*KittenKoder headesks.
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03:23<@planetmaker>patches in principle are welcome
03:25<KittenKoder>I've been up too long again.
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03:28<KittenKoder>My neighbors I think are having a noise war ... and it's starting to grate my nerves.
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03:45<KittenKoder>Trying to think how I will do the maglev for Fantasy Rails.
03:46<KittenKoder>My favorite idea would make a lot of the other maglevs not quite fit in with the set.
03:47<KittenKoder>Using two different tracks for the three different propulsion systems (like in reality) ....
03:47<KittenKoder>But then I'd have to define one as a "default" for the levs not defined in such a manner.
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04:24<KittenKoder>Anyone know where I can find the stats for the maglev tracks used in OGFX?
04:25<@planetmaker>what stats?
04:27<KittenKoder>Price, speeds, multipliers, etc.
04:28<Pinkbeast>Tracks don't have much in the way of stats as a rule
04:28<@planetmaker>I guess openttd source... src/table/...
04:28<KittenKoder>I want to make the original tracks I designed as a secondary type instead of replacing the default ones.
04:29<Pinkbeast>You might try looking at what NuTracks does
04:29<KittenKoder>There's speed limit, curve multiplier, and cost.
04:29<Pinkbeast>... but the total number of track types is absurdly small (why?) so it would be hard not to be incompatible with them.
04:29<KittenKoder>I think NuTracks is over board on types, personally. >.<
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04:30<Pinkbeast>Well, I appreciate them representing the different electrical systems for simulationists.
04:30<pjpe>i don't get what the nutracks subway tracks are supposed to do
04:31<Pinkbeast>pjpe> IIRC, look like houses.
04:31<pjpe>last time i tried it just made parts that look like a city
04:31<KittenKoder>But for my fantasy rail set, I want two types of maglev tracks.
04:31<pjpe>isn't that what a city is for
04:31<Pinkbeast>Kitten> And the "fast-expensive" or "slow-cheap" choice is a meaningful one, but it's too discrete, but can it not be without excessive simulatonism
04:32<Pinkbeast>pjpe> Well, not after you build tracks through it, given OTTD's... lacking... support for underground railways.
04:32<pjpe>oh trains can still go on it?
04:32<KittenKoder>The maglev track idea is that one of the tracks will be specifically for fantasy only trains.
04:32<pjpe>did not know that
04:32<pjpe>looks like it would just stop a train
04:32<Pinkbeast>pjpe> Yeah, that's the idea. It's a bodge at best.
04:33<Pinkbeast>Kitten> At least I and others talked the NuTracks guy out of having the not-totally-slow track start in 1920.
04:34<KittenKoder>Or I could make a real maglev set that distinguishes between them ... but that may be a lot of extra work. >.<
04:34<Pinkbeast>Really it would be nice if whatever limits the binary to 16 track types was fixed # ahem but I am not fixing it, I am presently trying to comprehend YAPF
04:35<KittenKoder>LOL
04:35<KittenKoder>I have dealt little with pathfinders.
04:35<Pinkbeast>I'm not joking, the thing I most want fixed is in YAPF. However, I'm a Perl programmer and my understanding of C++ is limited. :-(
04:36<pjpe>what do you want fixed
04:36<KittenKoder>I'm also really bad at understanding other people's code.
04:36<Pinkbeast>Kitten> so am I when it has template programming in, that stuff is deep magic
04:36<KittenKoder>I think YAPF is actually awesome, myself, I have yet to confuse it ... and I have tried.
04:37<Pinkbeast>pjpe> Presently when a train wants automatic servicing it goes to the nearest depot.
04:37<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: that has nothing to do with YAPF
04:37<Pinkbeast>Yexo> hang on...
04:37<KittenKoder>Isn't that part of the core?
04:37<@Yexo>and if you want to prevent that just use at least one "service at depot" order
04:37<KittenKoder>OTTD itself.
04:37<@Yexo>it's part of the core, yes, but not of yapf
04:37<@Yexo>yapf being only the pathfinder part
04:38<KittenKoder>Yeah, OTTD can use other pathfinder programs.
04:38<KittenKoder>Just that there really is no need with YAPF.
04:38<Pinkbeast>It should instead consider both the train->depot and the depot->next destination issue
04:39<KittenKoder>Aha!
04:39<Pinkbeast>Yexo> "service at depot" orders are kind of a reflection of the way automatic servicing leads to comedy # and some timetable separation patches are broken with it although yes that is their bug to fix
04:40<Pinkbeast>Kitten> So ideally some kind person would implement in every pathfinder "find depot with net lowest total journey" but I'd settle for doing it in YAPF
04:40<KittenKoder>>.< Pooh, that doesn't have it either.
04:41<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: that is not a complete solution, since when a slow train requires servicing "now" it should travel another 1000 tiles just because it'll make the total journey a few tiles shorter
04:41<Pinkbeast>Yexo> Aha, I thought of that. :-)
04:41<@Yexo>it needs servicing say within 50 tiles, and than again after another 500, and again after 1000 etc.
04:41<KittenKoder>Sorry, trying to find the defaults for the maglev track still.
04:41<Pinkbeast>You would add a weighting factor to make the pre-depot journey cost more than the post-depot journey...
04:42<@planetmaker>KittenKoder: "no need" might be a bit strong. Actually a path finder which is both deterministic, threadable and efficient would be nice ;-)
04:42<Pinkbeast>... and also appreciate that, yes, things can go wrong with this setup, but presently they go wrong with a train taking a journey up the one-way line to arseendofnowhereville.
04:42<KittenKoder>Okay, no pressure then? :p
04:42<Pinkbeast>In particular in my proposed approach adding depots can never make things worse, whereas now it can.
04:43<KittenKoder>Pinkbeast, I have found a few track techniques that actually help out with that.
04:43<KittenKoder>One is forced depot stops, just after a full load command.
04:43<Pinkbeast>Kitten> Yes, so have I! That is part of why I am so frustrated as to want to learn C++ just to fix it!
04:44<pjpe>c++ ain't that bad
04:44<KittenKoder>The other is putting a reversible PBS facing the "wrong" way, which discourages trains not needing that track from going there.
04:44<KittenKoder>Pshaw ... c++ is easy.
04:44<Pinkbeast>Kitten> Indeed. But wouldn't it be nice not to have to do these things?
04:44<KittenKoder>You can complain when you have to learn Java. :p
04:44<Pinkbeast>Or Python.
04:45<dihedral>what's wrong with coding java?
04:45<KittenKoder>*shudder* I loath Python's syntax.
04:45<KittenKoder>Java is the least forgiving language ever.
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>i love python's syntax :p
04:45<SpComb>what I'd like would be lookahead for routing on station orders
04:45<dihedral>and why should a language be 'forgiving'
04:45<KittenKoder>One bad call and the compiler spits it out saying "what's wrong with you?" :p
04:45<dihedral>you are telling a machine what to do
04:45<SpComb>i.e. if you have a station with different platforms that have different routing, pick a platform that lets the train continue on to its next destination
04:45<KittenKoder>I like Java, just saying, it's hard for beginners.
04:45<dihedral>and you expect the machine to forgive faulty syntax?
04:45<dihedral>pfft
04:45<Pinkbeast>SpComb> Well, waypoints, but yes.
04:46<KittenKoder>Well, actually I LOVE Java, it's my preferred language.
04:46<pjpe>java ain't hard for beginners
04:46<SpComb>waypoints can be hard to fit in
04:46<dihedral>i dont think java is hard for beginners either
04:46<SpComb>if you have cramped layouts
04:46<Pinkbeast>SpComb> I don't disagree with you!
04:46<pjpe>then again i can't think of anything i'd think is hard for beginners
04:46<Pinkbeast>That there is a workaround doesn't mean I don't wish it wasn't necessary (as with servicing)
04:46<SpComb>of course, you could have asinine counterexamples where you'd need more than one step of lookahead
04:46<KittenKoder>pjpe, when you are an old school coder who used c and c++ for too long ... it can be.
04:47<SpComb>but it would be useful in places!
04:47<Pinkbeast>Particularly if you combine it with conditional orders.
04:47<dihedral>KittenKoder, that's just because the person is thinking in too small a box ;-)
04:47<KittenKoder>LOL
04:47<SpComb>s/asinine/pathological/
04:47<KittenKoder>Can't argue that.
04:47<KittenKoder>Gotta say though, this is nice, no language elitists here.
04:48<pjpe>fuck erlang
04:48<Pinkbeast>Well, Perl is best, obviously. # joke
04:48<KittenKoder>LOL
04:48<SpComb>QML!
04:48<Pinkbeast>I mean, I love Perl programming, but it's like Frank Cooper's, I don't expect everyone else to like it. :-)
04:49<KittenKoder>I was in one programming channel where if you mentioned anything but ansi-c ... you got attacked.
04:50*Pinkbeast occasionally still reports bugs in NetHack. _ANSI_ C? New-fangled nonsense. :-)
04:50<KittenKoder>LOL
04:50<KittenKoder>You still play NetHack?
04:50<Pinkbeast>Well, these days, Derek Ray's "SporkHack" variant, but yes.
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>"you still play Transport Tycoon?"
04:51<Pinkbeast>Not so much, though. I play a lot of Kornel Kzhardtospell's marvellous DoomRL
04:51<Pinkbeast>And Jeff Lait's POWDER (and any roguelike by Lait is worth a look)
04:52<KittenKoder>I was joking.
04:52<KittenKoder>>.> Sheesh, get to a hospital, you have a broken bone.
04:53<KittenKoder><.<
04:53<KittenKoder>>.>
04:53<KittenKoder>Can't find it. >.<
04:58<KittenKoder>NuTrack has it at 26667 ... isn't that a bit high since it's a multiplier?
04:59*Pinkbeast assumes his trademark blank look. :-O # sorry, I don't understand
05:00<KittenKoder>The cost multiplier for the maglev track.
05:00<Pinkbeast>NuTrack does like to make high speed tracks _very_ expensive, dunno if they mean that.
05:01<KittenKoder>Because the example track in the NML says 32 is "steep" for the costs.
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05:01<Pinkbeast>Not to be Captain Obvious, but seen if NuTracks does actually charge a million a mile for maglev?
05:03<KittenKoder>That's where I'm lost, the math in my head doesn't coincide.
05:03<Pinkbeast>Well, while I'm being the cardboard programmer, what are the multipliers for other track?
05:03<KittenKoder>Lowest is 47.
05:03<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast: nutracks means to be very expensive
05:04<KittenKoder>Okay, test is 46 per mile of maglev .... see ... math doesn't add up. >.<
05:04<Pinkbeast>planet> yabbut nutracks slowest ain't 47 times the cost in vanilla, which I think is key to Kitten's issue
05:05<KittenKoder>Exactly!
05:05<KittenKoder>The highest speed electric comes to 9,346.
05:07<KittenKoder>I think another of my GRFs is interfering with NuTracks, because the highest rail seems correct.
05:08<KittenKoder>9364 with a cost value of 9334.
05:09*KittenKoder is actually more confused now really.
05:11<KittenKoder>Okay ... maybe I'll just ditch this whole line of thought,
05:12<KittenKoder>Some aspects I just can't find enough information on ....
05:12<KittenKoder>Though ... come to think of it, I could just make a NML file and play with values there.
05:12<Pinkbeast>It's struck me as one of the odd things about OTTD, as free games go
05:13<KittenKoder>Not really, Open Source devs have a VERY hard task when it comes to documentation maintenance.
05:13<KittenKoder>It's not easy with a lot of contributions to keep everything in full detail and up to date.
05:14<Pinkbeast>Even so, OTTD is unusually full of magic.
05:14<KittenKoder>The program devs do a great job at what they do.
05:14<@Terkhen>svn log | grep -i Magic
05:14<@Terkhen>:)
05:14<SpComb>you can set the base cost that the multiplier applies to
05:14<KittenKoder>... and with the NewGRF ... almost impossible to expect that to be complete.
05:15<Pinkbeast>I think you're responding to a criticism I wasn't making.
05:15<KittenKoder>Probably.
05:15<KittenKoder>LOL
05:15<KittenKoder>It's late.
05:16<KittenKoder>SpComb, I almost figured it out, but it slipped out of my brain for some reason.
05:16<KittenKoder>The math is just not working for me.
05:17<KittenKoder>Is there a conversion between pounds and dollars?
05:17<@Terkhen>in OpenTTD? 1£ == 2$ IIRC
05:17<Pinkbeast>Er... yes, all the other currencies have hard-configured conversions to pounds. # perhaps that was not your question
05:18<KittenKoder>Okay .... that's part of my problem.
05:18<KittenKoder>I thought it just changed the display. >.<
05:18<Pinkbeast>Er, I think it does - the internal game arithmetic is always in pounds.
05:19<@Yexo>internal game is always in pounds, yes
05:19<KittenKoder>There's a lot of my confusion's source, I didn't think of that until just now.
05:20<KittenKoder>Even then, I'm still thinking of ditching the idea of adding another track type anyway. LOL
05:21<KittenKoder>Unless I make one monorail+maglev compatible ... but that may unbalance things a lot.
05:22<KittenKoder>... as well as complicate matters .... forgot about acceleration.
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05:51<KittenKoder>Not going too high on the detail for 3D modeling is hard when you're use to high res.
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05:52<Pinkbeast>You should tell that to the P1SIM guy # sorry
05:52<KittenKoder>LOL
05:53<KittenKoder>I am trying to remember that when taking the 3D model down to an 8bbp sprite, detail becomes dots.
05:53<Pinkbeast>Someone should tell that to the P1SIM guy # oh oops again
05:54<KittenKoder>Okay, gotta ask, who?
05:54<@peter1138>p1sim is awesome
05:55<Pinkbeast>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45685&start=0
05:55<Pinkbeast>He wants to implement something - alone - that will be 80000 times better than OTTD by simulating EVERYTHING
05:56<Pinkbeast>Now admittedly that worked for the Dwarf Fortress guy but 1) he's very unusual 2) he worked for ages before releasing anything 3) he did have to live on instant ramen for years after that before the money came in
05:57<blathijs>He does draw pretty pictures
05:58<blathijs>and actually has code already, it seems
05:58<KittenKoder>LOL
05:58<Pinkbeast>blathijs> Some code, yes, but I have code to make an @ walk round the screen and I ain't claiming to have written a roguelike yet
05:59<Pinkbeast>As some OTTD dev put it in the thread, OTTD's interface code alone is a pretty awesome one-man job.
05:59<blathijs>Lots of pretty pictures, even
06:00<KittenKoder>Well, I'm a bit of a realist.
06:00<blathijs>heh, "It would take many years to make a fork of ottd so that it will work like the concept i decribed."
06:00<blathijs>At least he has some realism on his side as well
06:00<KittenKoder>Granted.
06:00<Pinkbeast>Kitten> I do, around page 38, try and encourage him to do something one man can do
06:01<KittenKoder>I didn't read that far. :p
06:01<blathijs>And looking at the vast amount of detailed pictures he drew up, he does have plenty of time on his hands :-)
06:01<Pinkbeast>I don't blame you
06:01<KittenKoder>Kinda busy trying to make a low res version of the Ghost of Mars train right now.
06:01*peter1138 ponders attempting to migrate stuff from vserver to lxc
06:02<blathijs>peter1138: I'm in the middle of that right now, so feel free to shoot questions
06:02<@peter1138>network setup seems vastly more complicated :S
06:02<KittenKoder>Which is better, long or tall engines?
06:02<blathijs>peter1138: Also, realize that lxc is not as foolproof as vserver right now (it does isolation, but there are still parts that are not isolated or secured)
06:03<KittenKoder>I have seen some long engines, but they don't look right taking turns, though they are nice otherwise.
06:03<@peter1138>blathijs, hmmmmmmm
06:03<Pinkbeast>Kitten> er if they are fictional why have too much of either
06:03<blathijs>I like the track layout idea of p1sim, though. I once designed something like it for ottd :-)
06:03<@peter1138>well, they're all for service separation rather than dishing out to untrusted customers etc...
06:04<blathijs>peter1138: If you have a functioning vserver system right now, you might want to stick with that for a while (though it's fun playing with lxc, of course)
06:04<KittenKoder>Pinkbeast, I am trying to work out balance .... it's just sometimes it's hard.
06:04<blathijs>peter1138: I'm setting up a new server right now, so I thought to save me the migration trouble later on by using lxc right now
06:05<@peter1138>yeah, i'm setting up a new server
06:05<@peter1138>basically i installed it as vserver
06:05<@peter1138>*then* read that vserver's being deprecated :S
06:05<blathijs>peter1138: And indeed, my goal is mostly separation to make management more easy and slightly reduce the impact of a security breach, not give root to untrusted people
06:05<blathijs>peter1138: Same here
06:06<blathijs>peter1138: Or rather, I knew vserver was to be deprecated, but only found out later that lxc was somewhat usable already
06:06<blathijs>peter1138: Though I think that the vserver kernal patch will be deprecated by Debian, but it's likely that the vserver userspace tools will end up using lxc kernel utils eventually
06:06<Pinkbeast>I like many of the ideas in P1SIM (although not the "simulate everything and see what drops out" idea, that worked once for Dwarf Fortress) but he'd do better hacking on OTTD
06:06<blathijs>peter1138: Not sure about the timeframe, though
06:07<@peter1138>lxc seems to be lacking in the shutdown procedure
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06:17<blathijs>peter1138: I've wondered about that. shutdown -h now seems to work, but I usually use lxc-stop to stop a container. I suppose that just sigterms all processes or something
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06:18<@peter1138>yeah, lxc-stop doesn't do a clean shutdown
06:18<blathijs>peter1138: And you can't seem to run a single command within a container if it's already running, so not sure how to script the shutdown -h now
06:18<blathijs>perhaps over SSH ;-)
06:19<blathijs>I wonder if something like "echo ctrl-alt-del | lxc-console" exists
06:19<blathijs>or sending an ACPI power button signal :-)
06:19<@peter1138>single command?
06:19<@peter1138>right
06:20<@peter1138>http://blog.foaa.de/2010/05/lxc-on-debian-squeeze/#how-to-safely-stop-a-container :S
06:20<@peter1138>(that's a year ago mind you)
06:20<blathijs>seems the lxc-stop is no longer neede right now
06:22<@peter1138>i wonder how libvirt handles it
06:23<blathijs>"chroot /var/lib/lxc/vm0/rootfs telinit 0" seems to do the trick
06:24<@peter1138>interesting
06:24<blathijs>(which is a bit of a hack, but takes advantage of the fact that telinit just dumps something in /dev/initctl I think)
06:24<@peter1138>yeah
06:24<@peter1138>and /dev/initctl isn't actually a device node
06:25<blathijs>I was just wondering about that, yes
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06:25<blathijs>just a FIFO created by init I guess?
06:25<@peter1138>yeah
06:25<@peter1138>should be in /var/run ;)
06:25<AlexLivingstone>moin
06:25<blathijs>hysterical raisins, I guess
06:25<@peter1138>now... can you do lxc without the network bridge
06:26<@peter1138>i find promiscuous mode disconcerting, heh
06:26<blathijs>Yup, see http://j.9souldier.org/trunk/lxc/net/
06:26<blathijs>though I had a look at that and then eventually just went for the bridge configuration
06:27<blathijs>since that static approach requires configuring a (possibly identical) address for every veth pair on the host side
06:27<@peter1138>hmm, i see. painful
06:27<blathijs>peter1138: Just using a veth pair and putting that in a host-side bridge seems to work
06:28<blathijs>peter1138: I also coded up a patch for lxc-start to setup the default gateway inside the guest (autodetected from the bridge address), so the guest doesn't need to do any networking configuration anymore
06:30<KittenKoder>Okay, this is the 32bpp version, any comments? http://rpgcn.com/backups/Engine.png
06:30<KittenKoder>Pink = CC1, green = CC2
06:31<Pinkbeast>I think it would be more helpful to show it in a variety of CC, frankly # or at any rate less alarming ones
06:31<Pinkbeast>But it looks basically good
06:31<KittenKoder>Well, that's the rough render, and the CCs change to the defaults when I do my palette trick.
06:32<KittenKoder>It's based on this one: http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp313/TheBufoon/Future%20Trains/train.jpg
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06:33<Pinkbeast>Kitten> It's an awkward shape. In the future I hope we can expect trains to be either super streamlined (like the new shinkansens) or bluff freight full of brute force.
06:33<Pinkbeast>But I don't think that design is bad # but I'd like to see it in more CC
06:33<KittenKoder>Thus why I'm calling this "Fantasy" instead of sci-fi.
06:34<KittenKoder>Not all sci-fi is realistic, and most is pretty fugly. :p
06:34<Pinkbeast>Well, in fantasy, we could have designs like UKRS1's 7AT steam locomotive # ahem sorry
06:34<KittenKoder>But hmm ... lost a little more detail than I expected ... need to tone down the shading stuffs or use less variation in shading colors.
06:35<KittenKoder>LOL
06:35<Pinkbeast>But more seriously, in fantasy, it should exude power, with grilles over vast engines # inasmuch as we can do in so few pixels
06:36<KittenKoder>Yeah, that's the balance I'm trying to work out, the detail levels, right now.
06:36<Pinkbeast>LOL> I dunno, if I won umpteen million pounds I would build the 5at
06:36<Pinkbeast>Well, again, I dunno about the CC, but that design does seem to have a certain brute something.
06:36<KittenKoder>I need to choose a better base color.
06:37<KittenKoder>It's a long distance passenger transport in the movie.
06:37<KittenKoder>Maglev, but slower than most diesel. >.< LOL
06:38<KittenKoder>I think I need to put more red in the texture so it converts better, it goes all grey.
06:40<KittenKoder>Ooops, figured out why the CC amount was so low.
06:40<KittenKoder>Forgot to change the specular values.
06:40<KittenKoder>>.<
06:42<KittenKoder>Aha!
06:42<KittenKoder>http://rpgcn.com/backups/Engine.png <- With the corrected palette
06:44<KittenKoder>Thinking of doing the unit style.
06:45<Pinkbeast>No, that looks much worse.
06:46<KittenKoder>???
06:46<Pinkbeast>The grey with 2CC stripes one looked better.
06:47<KittenKoder>Really?
06:48<KittenKoder>Well, the grey would fit other sets better.
06:50<KittenKoder>How about darker grey?
06:52<KittenKoder>Refresh it, I think this time I got it.
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07:00<@peter1138>just freed up 1.7GB of ram
07:00<@peter1138>by closing chrome :S
07:03<KittenKoder>LOL
07:04<KittenKoder>Frell ....
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07:36<KittenKoder>Okay, honest opinion of my sprite ability: http://rpgcn.com/backups/martian.png
07:38<Noldo>too much blue
07:38*Noldo hides
07:38<KittenKoder>LOL
07:38<KittenKoder>The blue on the train itself is CC1.
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>sprites are difficult to judge on their own
08:10<KittenKoder>The problem is that all the others I have seen everything looks longer from the side angles than the diagonal ones
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>yep, that's a general problem
08:10<KittenKoder>But mine keep winding up the same.
08:11<KittenKoder>Is it because of using a 3D rendering?
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>the - view must be stretched about 40%
08:12<KittenKoder>Wow, that's a lot. >.<
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>total width should be 32px
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>yours looks more like 24px
08:15<KittenKoder>About that.
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 32/24
08:15<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1.33333333333
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>33% stretch needed
08:16<KittenKoder>I'll have to figure it out tomorrow,
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>it's difficult to recognize any kind of shape in your images though
08:17<KittenKoder>Yeah,
08:17<KittenKoder>I was thinking that to.
08:18<KittenKoder>I still need a lot more practice.
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08:19<Eddi|zuHause>this stretch is actually very annoying, but it's kinda deep inside the game mechanics
08:19<KittenKoder>Working with isometric is a pain no matter what game.
08:20<@peter1138>would be better if it was proper isometric ;p
08:20<KittenKoder>Hexagonal is the only way to solve it really.
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>hexagonal has other problems
08:21<KittenKoder>With square the angles won't fit, but yeah, hexagonal is VERY hard to code for.
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>like you cannot do proper 90° crossings
08:21<KittenKoder>Something like TT ... it'd be virtually impossible to use hexagonal.
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>actually, the idea is very intriguing, but probably not worth the effort
08:22<KittenKoder>... and if the isometric as it is was fixed, it'd be a lot of trouble with having to remake everything.
08:23<KittenKoder>That's why I said I need practice. :p
08:26<Pinkbeast>What would Gresley do?
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08:47<georg>hi
08:48<georg>i just downloaded openttd-1.1.2-linux-generic-amd64 and started a dedicated server, it keeps changing the version number to 1.0.3/10384F2B in the config file and returns me a "version mismatch" in my 1.1.2 win64 client
08:50<+glx>are you sure you start the right one ?
08:51<georg>nevermind, my fault ofc, openttd != ./openttd, had an old version installed via apt
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09:01<@Belugas>hello
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09:15-!-Ammler is "Marcel Gmür" on #openttdcoop.devzone #openttd @#openttdcoop.stable @+#coopetition
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09:37<andythenorth>http://www.edutopia.org/serious-games-computer-simulations-study
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10:10<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: Is a NML var that captures vehicle var 45 in its entirety still useful to you?
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>haven't changed much in the last days
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>so i still check those same 4 cases... and i still have not checked the behaviour in 90° turns
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10:12<Eddi|zuHause>and the actual plan was to replace that with 60+ vars
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>so var45 possibly won't be used at all in the end
10:14<Hirundo>At least for now, NML has a var equivalent to var45
10:14<Hirundo>I found an old patch in my stack which I just finished + committed
10:14<Eddi|zuHause>ah, ok
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10:15<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i check it out later
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10:15<Eddi|zuHause>not in the mood right now
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10:50<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/168365 <-- better or worse?
10:52<@Terkhen>it looks better IMO
10:52<@planetmaker>hm... maybe I should borrow FIRS' ground tile?
10:52*planetmaker looks
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11:19<@peter1138>http://hackedirl.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/epic-win-photos-mother-nature-ftw-green-tunnel.jpg
11:19<@peter1138>^ new railtype !
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11:19<@planetmaker>jungle style?
11:23<__ln__>is that real?
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11:46<andythenorth>never add last minute ponies to releases: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/telepathy/2011-August/005679.html
11:46*andythenorth has been burnt by that :P
11:49<Pinkbeast>Oooh, ponies
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12:29<@planetmaker>andythenorth: can you explain me the need for tile 226 (basetiles.pnml:59ff) vs. tile 225 (basetiles.pnml:47ff)?
12:29*andythenorth checks
12:29<andythenorth>basetiles got crufty
12:29<andythenorth>it was a nice idea, but impossible in practice
12:30<andythenorth>it failed on Proper Separation of Concerns
12:30<andythenorth>basically shared items + necessary variation = bad code smell
12:30<@planetmaker>err, what?
12:30<andythenorth>but to answer the question...
12:31<andythenorth>I don't know :P
12:31<andythenorth>sorry
12:31<andythenorth>I'm at work
12:31<andythenorth>bug me later?
12:31<andythenorth>I'd have to read the nfo
12:32<@planetmaker>k
12:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: if they're tiles shared by multiple industries, they should probably be unshared
12:32<andythenorth>and moved into the industry
12:32<andythenorth>the shared basetiles gain almost nothing
12:44<@Terkhen>I did not touch the shared industry tiles either
12:44<@planetmaker>I'm on them right now
12:44<@Terkhen>ok :)
12:49<@planetmaker>Terkhen: the building_zextend: what units is that?
12:50<@Terkhen>pixels
12:50<@planetmaker>sprite height?
12:50<@planetmaker>thus 31 for a building of height 0?
12:50<@planetmaker>or 8 for a one height level building?
12:51<@planetmaker>thus (sprite height - 31) ?
12:51<@Terkhen>I don't know, I have not been touching them at all
12:51<@planetmaker>oh... nvm. There's an zextend given in the layout :-)
12:52<@Terkhen>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/nml/raw-file/tip/docs/nml-language.html#block-spritelayout <--- check zextent
12:52<@Terkhen>I know it is in pixels and that it marks the size of the bounding box but nothing more
12:52<@Terkhen>I did not have to change them
12:52<@planetmaker>ok. thanks
12:53<@Terkhen>what are you planning? :P
12:53<supermop_>bridges?
12:54<@planetmaker>basetile.pnml?
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12:54<@planetmaker>it has the tanks for plastics plant
13:02<@Terkhen>I have been thinking about a file for defining common spritesets / spritelayouts
13:02<@Terkhen>for example, most of the industries use the same ground tiles
13:02<@Terkhen>the spriteset defining them is duplicated all over
13:02<@planetmaker>that might make sense
13:03<@Terkhen>the sprites for those common industry tiles could be converted into one of the shared spriteset
13:03<@planetmaker>:-D
13:03<@planetmaker>One spritelayout for all industries ;-)
13:04<@Terkhen>there was an animation particularly nasty in which I had to duplicate the ground sprite in the ground sprite set like 7 times
13:04<@Terkhen>so unless you want to define all sprites 7 times... nope :P
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13:04<@planetmaker>you haven't reached the industry with the 14 animation frames then?
13:05<@Terkhen>there are others with 48 animation frames
13:05<@Terkhen>just not 48 sprites :)
13:05<@Terkhen>I don't know if there is one with 14 sprites
13:06<@Terkhen>14 of "our" sprites, not ttdsprites
13:06<@planetmaker>I don't recall and probably didn't even look at the layouts referenced ;-)
13:07<@Terkhen>:P
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13:18<andythenorth>one spriteset? controversially logical...
13:19<@Terkhen>too confusing imo :P
13:21<@planetmaker>oh.... how boring :-(
13:21<@planetmaker>And I thought it would be on the same line as reducing cargos to "stuff"
13:23<@Terkhen>it would be simpler if we didn't have to deal with the "all spritesets have the same size" spritelayout restriction
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13:23<@Terkhen>but I still don't see the point to unify all spritesets in one
13:24<@planetmaker>:-)
13:24<@planetmaker>nmlc: "sprites/nml/basetiles.pnml", line 10: All parts of the ternary operator (?:) must be integers. <-- nice
13:25<@planetmaker> sprite: (terrain_type == TILETYPE_SNOW) ? spriteset_plain_concrete_snow : spriteset_plain_concrete; doesn't work for spritesets, I learnt (again) ;-)
13:26<@Terkhen>yes
13:26<@Terkhen>that's why the spritelayout templates have two/three fields for ground sprites
13:26<@Terkhen>if they only use ttdsprites, you can use the ternary operator
13:26<@Terkhen>if they only use spritesets, we can use an index to the spritesets
13:26<@planetmaker>both is custom in this case
13:26<@Terkhen>but if they use both...
13:27<@Terkhen>you can use spriteset_common(terrain_type == TILETYPE_SNOW) then
13:27<@Terkhen>but then... your ground spriteset must have two entries too :)
13:27<@planetmaker>that can be arranged
13:27<@planetmaker>it's a groundsprite only layout
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13:28<@planetmaker>concrete or snow. No otherfrills
13:28<@Terkhen>ok :)
13:28<@planetmaker>thus I'll just make a short custom thingy for it
13:29<@planetmaker>as no such template seems to exist nor is it worth templating that, I think
13:31<@planetmaker>as it probably will be removed anyway ;-)
13:32<@Terkhen>I had to do a lot of custom stuff
13:32<@Terkhen>not worth templating :)
13:33<@planetmaker>if everything would be templated, the template would be toooooooo complicated
13:34<@Terkhen>yes, the current templates are relatively simple and cover most of the cases
13:35<@planetmaker>which is how it should be IMHO
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13:36<Wolf01>o/
13:37<__ln__>\o
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22756 /trunk/src/lang/ (danish.txt korean.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: danish - 2 changes by zyx
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by telk5093
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 18 changes by Peymanpn
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13:58<Zuu>Cool, my new computer compiles OpenTTD in 37 seconds for debug build and 1:38 for release builds. So now there is no excuse for making awsome patches :-p
13:59<__ln__>Zuu: the carbon footprint?
14:00<Zuu>Haven't checked that.
14:01<@planetmaker>:-)
14:01<@Terkhen>nice :)
14:02<Zuu>But I have a green energy contract and Sweden got most electricity from water and nuclear plants.
14:03<@Terkhen>IIRC I managed 20 seconds... with ccache :P
14:03<Zuu>But actually, the main issue with my old computer was not compile time, but that word/excel was too slow to bother open documents.
14:04<frosch123>Zuu: with disk cache or without?
14:05<frosch123>i.e. is the second full compile faster?
14:05<Zuu>frosch123: Compile time after a "clean solution".
14:06<Zuu>I should add that I haven't added direct X yet which might impact things.
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14:08*planetmaker would not compile w/o ccache if it can be avoided :-)
14:09<__ln__>are the danes bothered by Barsebäck?
14:09<Rubidium>I seldomly seen much compile time improvements from ccache
14:09<Rubidium>except for the make && make clean && make case
14:10<Zuu>Basrsebäck has been shut down, although it will take long time to complete the shuting down operation.
14:10<Rubidium>but that's unfair
14:10<Rubidium>generally you change something in a header and everything that includes that header changes, so the ccache is pointless
14:11<Zuu>IIRC in VS 2008 they added some detection of changes that doesn't affect other parts or some other reduction of re-compilation.
14:12<Zuu>Not sure if VS 2010 have any such boosts. Have not yet learned how to work with the new way of adding global include dirs to 2010.
14:13<Rubidium>I doubt they'd remove them
14:22<Zuu>It's not all bad. It looks like I can create a OpenTTD property sheet that is not global but that I add to all OpenTTD projects. That way the OpenTTD includes are stored in one place but does not affect other builds.
14:23<Zuu>Currently I don't have problem with having the OpenTTD includes global, but if I would, this would be a useful improvement.
14:23<@Terkhen>IIRC someone did a tutorial on how to add the global folders to MSVC 2010 already
14:24<@Terkhen>ah, you don't want that :)
14:24<Zuu>I also remember seeing something like a 2010 guide, but it has not been added to the compiling category.
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14:28<@Terkhen>he probably never got around to finish it
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14:33<andythenorth>efening
14:36-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
14:37<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:37<andythenorth>buenes noches
14:37<andythenorth>or some such
14:38<andythenorth>my spanish is rusty
14:40<andythenorth>oh
14:40<andythenorth>you broke my FIRS again :P
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14:42<andythenorth>fixed :P
14:42<andythenorth>hmm
14:42<andythenorth>so my opengfx+ food processor didn't go down well :|
14:44<@Terkhen>hmm... why?
14:44<andythenorth>I drew too much shadow on the walls
14:44<andythenorth>forum feedback :P
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14:47<@Terkhen>it is quite better than the old one IMO
14:47*Terkhen updates opengfx
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15:04*andythenorth broke the rules
15:05<andythenorth>and went in suggestions forum :|
15:05<Rubidium>oh darn... too late to suggest rivers then :(
15:06<andythenorth>let me see
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15:06<andythenorth>oh frick
15:06<andythenorth>I have to lay those sprite sheets out
15:06<andythenorth>or change the nfo
15:07<andythenorth>would anyone fancy amending the nfo in this grf? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/water-features
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15:07<andythenorth>so that tropic and arctic use 100% identical sprite layout to temperate?
15:07<andythenorth>(copy + rename temperate png for tropic green, tropic desert, arctic brown, arctic snow)
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15:08<andythenorth>I'd do it but I have to take apart a three wheel truck :P
15:09<andythenorth>I'll happily (grumpily) do the graphics, but the layout is just one step too much right now
15:10<Rubidium>let me see
15:13<Wolf01>I'll happiny (grumpig) do the refactoring of my website php code
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15:22<Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/temperate.png <- they look so tiny
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15:34<Rubidium>andythenorth: what did you mean by copying? Just copy the temperate one to the arctic etc ones?
15:36<Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/temperate.pnfo <- the sprite sizes and such seem somewhat random to me
15:37<andythenorth>they are :P
15:37<andythenorth>even if it made sense once, I think it's decomped grfcodec output
15:37<andythenorth>and yes, just duplicate the temperate png and rename for arctic-snow etc
15:38<andythenorth>then I'll fill / replace / tweak for colours
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16:14<frosch123>night
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16:15<Adamos>hi everybody, is this right place to find players tonight?
16:16<@Terkhen>hi
16:16<@Terkhen>you can try if someone wants to :P
16:17<Adamos>what about you? :)
16:18<@Terkhen>no thanks, playing is not my thing :)
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16:20<Adamos>ok, thanks for info... anyway, some recommandations about settings? i.e. Town cargo limitations, prizes simulating real bussiness etc.?
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16:21<Adamos>there is lot of possibilites, i would appreciate some pre-set settings - which would simulate reality event with it's high difficulty
16:23<Adamos>btw. i really admire work on openttd by all of developers - it's really great to see this game not just being alive, but also living
16:25<@planetmaker>Adamos: everybody has his or her own preference settings and might have different view on what constitute 'difficult' or 'realistic' or whatever
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16:25<@planetmaker>try a few servers and check which you like, I'd recommend
16:25<@planetmaker>save the game where you like the settings and find out which are the interesting ones
16:26<Adamos>thanks for recommendation
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16:29<Adamos>this variability is in one way really great - because of such many possibilities, but on the other hand - it lacks any "standard" - maybe some level you want to compete at... you know, something like general conditions you have to fit to if you want to success... when you make your own conditions, you are losing some quite important feeling of the game
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16:33<@planetmaker>if you want to compete, do that on one map with other players. Then it's the same for all
16:33<@planetmaker>and the different maps are just different 'levels'
16:35<Adamos>you are right... and what about scenarios - it is possible to create them with specially adjusted advanced settings?
16:36<@Terkhen>settings are saved for each scenario, yes
16:36<Adamos>cool, thanks for informations, gyus!
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16:38<Adamos>if i find some oldies i made for TTD, i'll put them to right place to download.. but i am afraid, that they are already lost
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17:04<@Terkhen>good night
17:09<__ln__>too early to say
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's usually "too early to tell"
17:10<__ln__>quite possible
17:10<__ln__>in fact, in a monty python sketch they say "too early to say, too early to tell"
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17:44<Wolf01>'night
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19:37<Pikka>ridiculous
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19:45<Sacro>Pikka: your wiki is le broked
19:45<Pikka>I know
19:45<Pikka>it needs upgrading, orudge is possibly maybe going to do it when he has time
19:45<Sacro>Sigh
19:45<Pikka>he updated le php on the server you see
19:45<Sacro>:( but I need the knowledge that it holds
19:46<Pikka>which one?
19:46<Sacro>Indeed
19:46<Sacro>All the UKRS info
19:46<Sacro>me and my friends are having a very enjoyable game
19:46<Sacro>but we refer to the wiki for info
19:46<Pikka>anything in particular you want to know?
19:46<Pikka>you can usually just wiki the real vehicle for stats and usage and suchlike
19:48-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1A21C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
19:48<Pikka>also, is it a private game? :P I'm always interested to see how people are using my grfs (and often disappointed, for example with UKRS1 where most players just put A4s and deltics on everything)
19:49<Sacro>errm, it's a CHPP game, Coop's server
19:49<Pikka>oh
19:50<Sacro>heh, we are quite realistic
19:50<Pikka>I guess I should download CHPP some time then
19:50<Sacro>can't afford to run a4s and deltics
19:50<Sacro>tbh we've had a daylength of between 3 and 5, this game has gone on for weeks
19:50<Sacro>started in 1920 and we've only just got to HSTs
19:50<Sacro>1024x1024 map
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20:18<Pikka>michi_cc: re custom cargo aging, r22713 is not 1.2... D:
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20:28<Pikka>orudge go to bed
20:28<Pikka>or fix my wiki
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>Pikka: every revision after branching 1.1.0-RC1 is 1.2....
20:29<Pikka>eddi: but the newgrf wiki should probably not have "1.2" next to a property if that property doesn't work in the 1.2 stable?
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>there is no 1.2 stable yet
20:29<Pikka>oh
20:29<Pikka>1.1.2
20:30<Pikka>is what I meant :D
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's something totally different
20:30<Pikka>don't mind me, it's too early in the morning
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>1.2 stable is next year's version
20:30<Pikka>yes
20:30<Eddi|zuHause>the nightlies give you 1.2 as (newgrf) version if you ask them
20:30<Pikka>yes, I understand, I just had a reading failure :P
20:31*Pikka makes another cup of tea and carries on
20:31<Pikka>sorry michi_cc
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20:40*Pinkbeast never put A4s and Deltics on everything in UKRS1...
20:41<Pinkbeast>... waste of the 9F, that
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23:17<KittenKoder>I think I got it now: http://rpgcn.com/backups/martian.png
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23:26<pikka>ew
23:34<KittenKoder>Eeew?
23:35<KittenKoder>But my sprite wasn't that bad ... :(
23:35<KittenKoder>Oh wait ... :p
23:36<pikka>:o
23:36*pikka waits
23:36<KittenKoder>I think I got it now: http://rpgcn.com/backups/martian.png
23:37<pikka>stylish
23:37<KittenKoder>I figured out stretch and AA values that seem to work.
23:43<KittenKoder>Now to try the train I want to make most.
23:43<KittenKoder>The HR Giger train.
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 18 00:00:33 2011