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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-18

---Logopened Thu Aug 18 00:00:33 2011
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01:01<KittenKoder>This one few people will like, but I do:
01:01<KittenKoder>It's mostly CC1
01:01<KittenKoder>Just .... dark.
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02:09<andythenorth>it's oh so quiet
02:10<Prof_Frink>GORDON'S ALIVE!
02:21<KittenKoder>Width of the up and down angles for vehicles .... annoying. >.<
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02:23<pjpe>sometimes i really hate path signals
02:23<pjpe>because i get cocky and place one in the wrong place and then everything gets jammed amazingly
02:24<KittenKoder>What is the widest a sprite going up or down can be?
02:24<KittenKoder>Hmm ... I should stick to 8 then even if I lose detail.
02:25<pjpe>maybe 11
02:25<KittenKoder>It's not much of a loss for these two engines .... but later it may be.
02:27<KittenKoder>Also, should the up and down facing ones be stretched lengthwise? The template shows it's longer, about as long as the horizontal ones.
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02:39<pikka>? koder
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02:40<pikka>the up/ down views are proportioned the same as the horizontal views. the roof should be half the length it is in the horizontal. :)
02:43<KittenKoder>Okay ... I think I have it all worked out.
02:44<KittenKoder>I'll code the two I have done so far and see what it looks like. >.< Hopefully it won't look too bad.
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03:51<KittenKoder>I think there's an error in NML.
03:53<KittenKoder>Found it.
03:53<KittenKoder>However, it may not be an error, so ... planetmaker, you alert right now?
03:54<KittenKoder>Erm ... well, anyone who knows NML well would do.
03:54<KittenKoder>Just use to him being the one with all the answers to my code questions. >.<
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04:00<KittenKoder>Aaah, NVM, found the answer, it's a new value and I don't have that OTTD version.
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04:09<@planetmaker>KittenKoder: and for the reason that anyone who knows the answer, it usually is a good idea to state the problem in the or near the lines you highlight someone...
04:09<@planetmaker>in case they read back...
04:10<KittenKoder>It's the cargo_age_period value.
04:11<@planetmaker>yes, that's available in OpenTTD for 2(?) weeks or so
04:12<@planetmaker>thus in stables only from OpenTTD 1.2.0 onward
04:12<@planetmaker>(not 1.1.2 or 1.1.3)
04:13<KittenKoder>I need to update my OTTD. LOL
04:17<@peter1138>we should switch to firefox versioning
04:17<@peter1138>we'll be on OpenTTD 7.0 in no time.
04:17<@planetmaker>by the end of the year, surely
04:17<@peter1138>(difference between OpenTTD 6.0 will be some translations...)
04:18<@peter1138>except now i hear they've changed their mind, and want to hide the version number...
04:22<@peter1138>the following add-ons are not compatible with this version of firefox and have been disabled!
04:22<@peter1138>damn :p
04:33<EmperorJake>Do invalid orders affect the train's pathfinding in any way?
04:34<EmperorJake>I deleted a waypoint I didn't think was necessary
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04:35<EmperorJake>and now trains are taking weird routes when they have invalid orders, but trains with the same route without invalid orders are taking the normal route.
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04:44<@Terkhen>good morning
04:45<@planetmaker>hm... crash...
04:45<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
04:45<dihedral>good morning to you, too, Terkhen
04:45<@planetmaker>we agreed that a newgrf must not crash openttd, right? ;-)
04:46<dihedral>does the grf then not get disabled?
04:46<dihedral>i assume though that would be quite a tricky task in the middle of a game
04:47<Ammler>dihedral: quite hard to disable a grf if openttd crashed :-P
04:47<@planetmaker>not if it's a valid newgrf and openttd crashes upon using it ;-)
04:47<dihedral>Ammler, lol :-)
04:47<dihedral>and hello to you too
04:47<Ammler>Guten Morgen :-)
04:47<@planetmaker> <-- could someone please confirm it for me?
04:47<@planetmaker>Build company land in arctic around the snow line...
04:48<@planetmaker>(the object-company land it supplies, the fenced tiles)
04:48<@planetmaker>also good morning everyone :-)
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04:53<@planetmaker>hmpf... somewhat random it seems... now I only get dbg: [sprite] Tried to load character sprite #13 as a normal sprite. Probable cause: NewGRF interference
04:54<@Terkhen>it does not crash for me... but I'm seing the default sprite for bought land
04:55<@planetmaker>default as in what there was before?
04:55<@planetmaker>you have to build the newobject
04:55<@planetmaker>landscapeing->place object
04:55<@planetmaker>not the normal company land. I can't change that
04:56<@Terkhen>hmm... wasn't that an object too?
04:56<@Terkhen>it does not crash for me either
04:56<@planetmaker>this is a strange thing...
04:57<@planetmaker>seems to me like some memory gets corrupted - with unpredicatable results
04:57<@planetmaker>hm, can you try to place it adjacent to an antenna?
04:59<@planetmaker>yes, that reproducably crashes it for me
05:00<@Terkhen>instant crash
05:00<@planetmaker>good, then it's not just me. :-) or :-( though I wonder
05:00<@Terkhen>I'll get a newer version just in case and prepare a backtrace
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05:02<@planetmaker>Reason: KERN_INVALID_ADDRESS at address: 0x000000000000000c
05:02<@planetmaker>0x00000001001a1f40 in GetObjectIDAtOffset [inlined] () at /Users/ingo/ottd/trunk/src/newgrf_object.cpp:143
05:02<@planetmaker>143 if (spec->grf_prop.grffile->grfid == cur_grfid) { // same object, same grf ?
05:04<@planetmaker>haha.... it stumbles over the assumption that an object is a newgrf object, I think
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05:06<@planetmaker>yes, similar here
05:08<@planetmaker>yes, same happens for HQ being adjacent. I'll assume light house, too
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05:31<@planetmaker>hm, not a straight forward fix... but I don't know that code are too well either.
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07:58<KittenKoder>Is there a list of formatting codes used in the .lng files for NML? Like {BLACK} and such.
08:00<@planetmaker>seemingly not directly
08:01<@planetmaker> <-- source code
08:02<KittenKoder>Pooh. Well, I know a few from some of the other files I've seen.
08:02<KittenKoder>Oh yeah, it's written in Python. >.< I can read Python.
08:02<@planetmaker>Maybe you can make a documentation patch? :-)
08:03<KittenKoder>I guess I will.
08:03<Ammler>planetmaker: wiki?
08:03<KittenKoder>Cool, even the little icons that show what's what.
08:04<@planetmaker>Ammler: yes... but which and where? :-)
08:04<Ammler>ah ok, not setup yet, thought that is already done :-P
08:05<KittenKoder>Should I just do it in a simple HTML table?
08:05<KittenKoder>Or just a list?
08:06<KittenKoder>Bulleted list I think is what is used in the documentation for such things, huh.
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08:08<KittenKoder>Or should the unicode and ascii values be shown with them?
08:09<@planetmaker>Ammler: it was intially thought to add it to the newgrf specs wiki. But... there's too many people who don't like that
08:12<Hirundo>KittenKoder: I'd say a table, and don't show the unicode/ascii value
08:13<KittenKoder>So a packed table?
08:14<KittenKoder>About how many columns then?
08:14<Hirundo>2, for 'name' and 'description'
08:15<KittenKoder>I don't know what they all do.
08:16<Hirundo>I'd start by doing the non-parametrized stuff, i.e. the colour codes and special characters
08:16<Hirundo> <- this may help
08:16<KittenKoder>Ahhh, yes, thank you.
08:17<KittenKoder>I still don't get all of it, so I'll fill in what I can, I'm not great at describing things at all.
08:18<Hirundo>All the numeric stuff is currently an explicit byte/word/dword, which I don't like as NML should make you *not* worry about such things
08:19<Hirundo>It's quite possible that those will be changed later to match OpenTTD's string codes
08:19<KittenKoder>After I'm done watching Transformers I'll finish it.
08:21<KittenKoder>I'll probably just OpenOffice edit it for simplicity.
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08:51<@planetmaker>a diff file would be most convenient.
08:52<KittenKoder>Never made one.
08:53<KittenKoder>As I said, I'm not a good team player so I don't have many skills that are commonly associated with team efforts.
08:56<KittenKoder>I don't even know where you would want the table put.
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09:08<dihedral>KittenKoder> As I said, I'm not a good team player so I don't have many skills that are commonly associated with team efforts. <- well that statement will get you a job anywhere ....
09:08<KittenKoder>Meh, I'm good with freelance right now, so no worries. ;)
09:09<@planetmaker>er... you want to tell me you're earning your living in IT on freelance but never made a patch?!
09:09<@planetmaker>that's... incredulous
09:09<KittenKoder>I do custom server software setups for small business, ones that can't afford professional teams.
09:10<KittenKoder>... and no, it's not incredulous ....
09:11<KittenKoder>There's a lot of software development in many fields that is not team centered.
09:12<@planetmaker>well, I hatched wrt software development here... and I can't imagine that using such as impracticable even when working on one own
09:12<KittenKoder>Most of it was just pieces in the early times, very little had such tracking done.
09:13<KittenKoder>Actually, it's more work tracking each tiny change, especially when there's no need to.
09:14<KittenKoder>I never keep old versions of my own code, out of habit, when I don't need it it's deleted, because when I started we were lucky to have 256K floppy disks.
09:14<KittenKoder>I mean, before my era they had 256 byte disks that were 8 inch squares.
09:15<@planetmaker>those floppies were actually 360kB... ;-)
09:15<@planetmaker>hello Belugas
09:15<@Belugas>hi hi :)
09:15<KittenKoder>Meh, memory isn't that keen. ;)
09:16<KittenKoder>Soon after we had the 1.44 meg ones.
09:16<@planetmaker>so yes, having used computers back then doesn't mean one cannot learn to make use of new techniques
09:16<KittenKoder>You could fit half a game on one.
09:16<@planetmaker>You fit dozens of games on one
09:16<@planetmaker>been there, seen that.
09:16<KittenKoder>No, however I only work in computers now because it's the only job I could get, not the one I wanted.
09:16<@planetmaker>Word 5.0 fit on 20 360kB disks
09:17<+glx>I still have 3" disks
09:17<KittenKoder>Programming is still in the realm of hobby to me, career choice was actually service industry, but things interfered with that so now I have no choice.
09:18<@planetmaker>3", glx?
09:18<KittenKoder>I still don't want to work on computers, takes all the fun out of it.
09:18<KittenKoder>3.5 inches.
09:18<+glx>cpc planetmaker
09:18<@Belugas>360k floppies... i think i still have a pile of those at home
09:18<KittenKoder>Holy ... you are a picky cuss.
09:19<@Belugas>well... no... i'm not good at cleaning up my mess ;)
09:20<KittenKoder>We have a store here that has a museum of computers ....
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09:21<KittenKoder>It's a stroll down memory lane .... what little of my memory is in tact.
09:25<KittenKoder>Speaking of which, I need to make a laser keyboard ... sick of these clunky things.
09:26<@planetmaker>just buy a camera keyboard... a virtual one
09:26<@planetmaker>then you can type on anything
09:26<KittenKoder>Um ... that's what a laser keyboard does.
09:27<KittenKoder>Also, buying one is hard, the laser ones run for about $500 online, and none are local.
09:27<@planetmaker>I'm not convinced that "building one" is a task done in a day
09:27<KittenKoder>Not in a day, no. ;)
09:28<@planetmaker>all, optics, laser, camera and image processing software will be interesting challenges on their own
09:29<KittenKoder>Actually, it's not software driven, the concept is very basic if you understand it. The light grid translates broken beam coordinates into standard keycodes.
09:29<KittenKoder>So ... to the computer it's just another keyboard.
09:30*Belugas could not open a computer museum, but he can surely open a camera museum, for sure...
09:30<KittenKoder>The projection is the hard part, but if you are only using one keyboard layout that could be hardwired.
09:30*Rubidium wonders where his abacus is
09:31<KittenKoder>Remember, the commercial products are for the eye candy, you pay more for the window dressing than the actual tech.
09:32<KittenKoder>The laser keyboards you buy also use a different tap detection than the light grid, but meh, the parts for what they used would probably be harder to find now.
09:32<KittenKoder>Radio Shack no longer sells actual tech.
09:33<@planetmaker>KittenKoder: that depends which commercial products ;-)
09:33<KittenKoder>I miss the days when you could go to Radio Shack and buy all the parts to build anything.
09:33*planetmaker knows enough where you pay definitely more for the hardware
09:33<KittenKoder>planetmaker, granted, but most of the fancy stuff it is. :p
09:33<+glx>iStuff ?
09:34<KittenKoder>The only reason I don't buy Apple products, you pay more for the look and customer service than the actual hardware.
09:35<+glx>don't forget basic feature missing ;)
09:36<+glx>(trolling is too easy :) )
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09:37<KittenKoder>Personally, I appreciate the Apple company, they have upped the bar on advances.
09:38<Rubidium>Apple and customer service?
09:38<Rubidium>taking your iPhone out your pocket on a misty day voids the warranty
09:39<KittenKoder>Sadly, they do have some of the best customer service still, in spite of it's flaws.
09:39<+glx>yeah they like their customers
09:39<KittenKoder>... as long as they keep paying money.
09:40<+glx>new OSX version, you have to buy new version of all your apps
09:40<KittenKoder>I saw that.
09:40<KittenKoder>But then Win7 did to, for most.
09:41<+glx>most apps still run on win7
09:41<KittenKoder>.... and Ubuntu is making me very annoyed lately.
09:41<KittenKoder>Since my last update FTP connections are completely unreliable.
09:41<+glx>MS knows what backward compatibility means
09:42<KittenKoder>It means the death of sales. ;)
09:42<KittenKoder>Backwards compatibility for Windows is usually only one version back now, when it use to include all versions.
09:47<+glx>usually apps failing on new versions were badly coded
09:47<KittenKoder>Not really.
09:47<KittenKoder>They have been discarding old structures a lot, though I think it's more indecision than anything.
09:48<KittenKoder>Win32API was the first one they got rid of, then GDI+ for the graphics ....
09:48<+glx>they are still usable
09:49<KittenKoder>I do not think they are included in the default install.
09:49<+glx>just the minimum version changed in msdn
09:49<KittenKoder>However I have not been with Windows for a long time so don't know all the details anymore.
09:49<+glx>openttd still uses old stuff
09:49<+glx>runs on all windows versions
09:50<KittenKoder>Doesn't it use the new SDL?
09:50<+glx>why use SDL on windows ?
09:50<KittenKoder>For one, write once, compile for anywhere.
09:51<+glx>SDL doesn't work everywhere
09:51<KittenKoder>Are you sure?
09:52<+glx>we had many problems with SDL on OSX
09:52<+glx>it's always better to use native stuff when available
09:52<Rubidium>yep, SDL fails quite nastily on OSX
09:53<Rubidium>and... it doesn't support the most important platform: DOS
09:53<Rubidium>how can a (previously) DOS game not work on DOS?
09:53<+glx>but on OSX native stuff tends to be replaced in every new version :)
09:53<Rubidium>or, even worse...
09:53<KittenKoder>Well, OpenTTD uses SDL.
09:54<+glx>for linux yes
09:54<Rubidium>functionality gets removed when the methods telling which functionality there is still say said functionality is still there
09:54<+glx>else it would be a pain ;)
09:54<KittenKoder>For all of them:
09:54<KittenKoder>NVM, I misread something there.
09:55<+glx>SDL and fontconfig are not required on mac. ;)
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09:57<KittenKoder>Yep, I misread that. ;)
09:57<Rubidium>then you're not using an old enough version of OpenTTD ;)
09:57<KittenKoder>I am wondering why SDL is incompatible with OSX though.
09:58<KittenKoder>Why use an old version?
09:58<KittenKoder>The latest has many cool new features.
09:59<Rubidium>KittenKoder: till line 227
09:59<__ln__>oh no, the infamous annual OpenTTD-and-SDL-on-Mac discussion
10:00<KittenKoder>__ln__, I did not know about the SDL and Mac issue. So it's news to me. :p
10:01<KittenKoder>As for that issue, meh ... that's not a big issue.
10:01<KittenKoder>... and as the report says, it's really bad signal setup anyway.
10:02<@planetmaker>__ln__: IIRC it got ever so slightly better. But I'd not consider it a solution
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10:05<__ln__>if i had time, i'd try to compile ottd so that it uses the QuickTime api for music/sounds on windows.
10:07<__ln__>and if it didn't work smoothly, i'd create a bug report about.
10:08<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22757 /trunk/src/newgrf_object.cpp: -Fix [FS#4730]: [NewGRF] Invalid memory access when querying the grfID of the default objects
10:12<KittenKoder>I have never seen Quicktime work smoothly on anything that's not Apple.
10:13<KittenKoder>But then I haven't touched it since ... 1998 I think?
10:15<MNIM>quicktime... does that even still exist?
10:15<@planetmaker>it's apple's default media player?
10:15<KittenKoder>I think it is.
10:16<MNIM>lol, I prefer not to touch anything apple with a ten feet long nuke
10:16<MNIM>*even with
10:16<@planetmaker>Let's say it's currently doing its job here very well ;-)
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10:34<@Belugas>as well as all the iToys invading the market and defining quite a few standards ;)
10:35<@planetmaker>they spent some time on design
10:37<+glx>and they forgot usability ?
10:40<@planetmaker>they don't target the average audience of this channel :-)
10:43<__ln__>MNIM: besides, QuickTime Player is not quite the same as the QuickTime API.
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10:49<@Belugas>usability? cannot tell, i have seen those, bu never experienced them. i have no use for those toys
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10:58<@planetmaker>Belugas: that toy lets me chat with you now ;-)
10:58<@Belugas>good for you, planetmaker ;)
10:59<@Belugas>as of me, my internet experience is still linked to non-mobile stations
10:59<@Belugas>note that my wife is more adventurous then me, she is actively looking for a tablet, been ipad or else
11:00<@Belugas>i guess i'm too lazy
11:00<@planetmaker>well... technically this is a laptop even without an "i" ;-)
11:02*peter1138 remembers quicktime in the early/mid nineties
11:03<@peter1138>that was truely terrifying
11:03<@planetmaker>it sucked on windows when I still had such OS ;-)
11:03<@peter1138>back when the quicktime logo had 4 squares
11:04<@peter1138>possibly the apple logo still had colours, but i don't recall
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11:09<@Belugas>neither do i
11:10<@Belugas>i did not like it, due to the way it slowed down the machine
11:10<@Belugas>exit da stuf!
11:10<@Belugas>my machine was not a bomb, mind you..
11:10<@Belugas>still the case hehehe..
11:11<Eddi|zuHause>back in the days when 60MHz was fast ;)
11:11<@planetmaker>that fast? ;-)
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11:22<@Belugas>well... let say... my modem was a 2400 one :)
11:22<@Belugas>well.. honestly, when QucikTime came in, i was using a 9600...
11:22<@Belugas>i think
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11:26<Sacro>what about realplayer?
11:26<@peter1138>still buffering
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13:28<Nite>is it a known bug that savegames make you loose money down to 8 digits?
13:29<frosch123>maybe you swiched currency
13:30<Nite>no i always play in pounds
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13:32<Nite>but they are 1.1.1 savegames loaded in 1.1.2
13:32<@planetmaker>do you have such savegame?
13:32<@planetmaker>which load correctly in 1.1.1 and not in 1.1.2?
13:33<Nite>well all of them sudenly have below 100 Mill pounds
13:33<Nite>like (183 Mill but now only 83)
13:33<Nite>as said cut down to 8 digits
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>"mill" means "thousand", btw.
13:35<opa_>or thousandth?
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>no, that's "milli"
13:36<Nite>mil. mean million
13:36<Nite>mio. means million
13:36<Nite>mill actually means nothing
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13:37<opa_>wikipedia seems to disagree with you
13:37<Nite>but everyone will think million
13:37<Nite>exept eddi
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>the majority of people are stupid, you know :p
13:37<Nite>all my money reduced in old savegames
13:38<Nite>i had a billion (1000 million) game
13:38<Nite>all gone
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: so where is your savegame?!?
13:38<Nite>nowhere because iam to lazy to upload
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>then we are too lazy to fix it. sorry.
13:41<Nite>but can i see what version the savegames are from somehow?
13:41<@planetmaker>console: gamelog
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22758 /trunk/src/lang/portuguese.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by ABCRic
13:45<Nite>ok it are realyl all 1.1.1 to 1.1.2 games, but i wonder because both versions have same savegame version 160
13:46<Nite>eventually i will upload such savegame(s)
13:46<Nite>but first i will check them in 1.1.1
13:47<@planetmaker>savegame version only changes if the savegame format changes
13:51<Nite>ok savegames lost money in 1.1.1 too
13:51<Nite>how did i ruin them ?
13:53<Nite>could newgrf have to do with it? basecost mod?
13:54<Nite>ohh no
13:55<Nite>good i didnt upload anything yet
13:55<Nite>iam stupid <-
13:55<Nite>i was in the wrong company because it where multiplayer games ...
13:57<Nite>ok now i can go for 3000 mil
13:58<Nite>pebcak as usual ...
14:00<Nite>btw i have to say that implicit orders are really no hassle anymore ...
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14:11<Eddi|zuHause>"Notch challenges Bethesda to 'trial by combat' in Quake 3 over trademark lawsuit"
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14:33<andythenorth>"tonight is rivers night"
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14:42<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01 and SmatZ
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14:46<@planetmaker>ho, hello Wolf01 and SmatZ from here, too :-)
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14:47<Zuu>Interesting forum quote "We wanted as much realism and interesting concepts as possible in our games, the best one ive played with so far is a Mars one he set up online."
14:47<@Terkhen>it seems that many people confuse realism with fun
14:47<@Terkhen>or maybe consistent or complex or whatever
14:48<Zuu>Although you could argue that there is a Mars reality or even a Toyland reality. :-)
14:49<@Terkhen>consistency with a setting that is not real is not realism IMO
14:51<@planetmaker>yup :-)
14:51<@planetmaker>Consistency is important
14:54<@Terkhen>yes, but it's not realism :P
14:55<andythenorth>A foolish Consistency is the hobgoblins of little minds, adored by little statesmen, philosophers, and divines. With consistency, a great soul simply has nothing to do.
14:55<@Alberth>Terkhen: perhaps your realism is not the same as his realism :)
14:55<Wolf01>I think in a fantastic world, everything which fits with the other things is "realistic"
14:56<@Terkhen>maybe, but I'm still sure the usual person calling for "realism" on OpenTTD most of the time has a contradictory idea of what realism is
14:56<Wolf01>I mean, if you put a banana on mars, it's not realistic, but an alien looking structure to convert lava to steel could be realistic
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14:57<@Alberth>Wolf01: that's more 'consistent with the game level description'
14:58<Wolf01>yes, but that concept is too hard to remember for the average people
14:58<Wolf01>so they remember "realistic"
14:59<@Alberth>could be, and that may somewhat explain aiming for realism
14:59<Wolf01>I aim for complexity and consistency for example
15:01<Wolf01>too bad is not always possible to achieve both results
15:02<@Alberth>I am not quite sure about 'complexity', I can easy imagine complex ways of playing the game that really kill the fun
15:03<Wolf01>like today, I was developing the "consistence" part and they asked me for "complexity", I answered "ok, but then will be less consistent" (ok, not these exact words)
15:03<@Terkhen>yes, when you have contradictory goals, you have to compromise... and then you usually aim for whatever is more fun or simpler
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15:05<@Alberth>or be creative and give it a nice twist, but that is often difficult
15:05<Wolf01>like "I can't do that with bare php, I must use jscript (jquery) or directly Ajax" :P
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: where do you get lava from on mars?
15:06<@Terkhen>heating rocks?
15:06<Wolf01>the Mars' water looks like lava to me
15:06<@Terkhen>maybe there is a bit remaining at the core, who knows :)
15:06<@Terkhen>for me it looks like strawberry tang
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: yeah, but that's totally not realistic :p
15:07<Wolf01>just because it's called "Mars", it it will be called "Char" it would be totally realistic
15:07<Wolf01>*if it
15:07<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: but it is alien, anything can happen then :)
15:09<Wolf01>however, not just complex way of play the game, (O)TTD(X) is well playable without building any junction, lots of spaghetti railways with only one train on them, or one single big network with one train which do all the job with an accurate refitting schedule
15:10<Wolf01>with complexity I mean to be able to do things which allow more options, fulli flexible track layout under bridges added a new degree of complexity
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>now wait for fully flexible track layouts on bridges :p
15:12<@Terkhen>fully flexible track layouts underground too
15:12<Wolf01>I'm waiting for diagonal rails on slopes (diagonally respect the grid)
15:13<Wolf01>you have an octagon shaped hill, I feel annoying to be able to climb it fron only 4 sides
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15:16<Eddi|zuHause>yep, i feel with you
15:16<@Alberth>diagonal bridges would be useful too
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>i wait for "inverse foundations"
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15:16<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. lower one level with walls, instead of raise
15:16<andythenorth>I considered doing those in FIRS
15:16<andythenorth>it's possible for industry
15:16<@Alberth>yeah, I was wondering why you need those
15:17<@planetmaker>everything with sprite layouts
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>i want to place double track along hills
15:17<@planetmaker>would be interesting, I think
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>one track lowered foundation and the other track raised foundation
15:19<Wolf01>if I update my sloped stations patch, it would be difficult to have a grf property to set the station placeable on plain only, on the slope but results plain or in the slope->sloped ?
15:21<Wolf01>I say, buffer stops should be placed facing the slope, but a station tile with a crossing or wathever should not be placed facing the slope
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15:22<Wolf01>other station tiles could be sloped like tarmac ones with no buildings or objects
15:23<Wolf01>this could help on making ramps with non-track tiles for fake roads
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: the problem with that is the fallback when station grf is removed
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15:25<Wolf01>you can't remove grfs on a running game
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>you can.
15:25<Wolf01>ok, but you shouldn't
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>but you can. and stations are specifically designed to handle that
15:26<Hirundo>Don't things break horribly already when changing station grf, when tiles go from track to non-track with a train on them?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes, because that was apparently some case that was overlooked
15:27<Wolf01>so overlook another case and we are all happy with another feature which adds complexity
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>imho sloped stations only make sense for road vehicles
15:27<Wolf01>that part is already implemented (in my patch) and works really well
15:28<Hirundo>Sloped RV stations could very well be done (graphics-wise) via action5, methinks
15:28<andythenorth>who wants to load a truck on a hill anyway?
15:28<andythenorth>buses maybe :P
15:28<Wolf01>try going on Trieste in Italy
15:28<@Alberth>mail trucks :)
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15:29<Eddi|zuHause>i'm mainly thinking trams and busses. i don't use trucks a lot
15:29<Wolf01>placing a 400kg glass panel at 12m of height in a road with a slope of 30%
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>in cities you often have difficulties getting horizontal road pieces, without destroying half the town
15:30<@Alberth>try the small towns against the hills in arctic climate :)
15:33<Hirundo>For (sloped) train stations, it might make sense to store the track/non-track state on the map, and show a newgrf error if that status changes (akin to vehicle length changes when not in depot)
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>train stations are legally required to be completely flat, in germany (afair)
15:35<@Alberth>luckily, germany is not in the arctic climate ;)
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15:38*andythenorth has made crappy rivers in arctic
15:38<andythenorth>this sucks
15:38<andythenorth>stupid stupid stupid
15:40<andythenorth>arctic tiles are not a straight recolour of temperate tiles :\
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16:08<andythenorth>Rubidium: for each climate, I'll have to re-shade every sprite by hand :)
16:08<andythenorth>this will take....longer
16:10<@SmatZ>well, it's your spriteset, isn't it?
16:10<@SmatZ>so you can just recolour it...
16:11<Rubidium>SmatZ: it's for openttd.grf
16:11<@SmatZ>ok then...
16:11*SmatZ hugs andythenorth
16:11<andythenorth>it has to match original ttd landscape ;)
16:11<andythenorth>and it has to be good
16:12<@SmatZ>that's why you draw it ;)
16:12<andythenorth>I draw it because no other bugger will :P
16:12*andythenorth doubts the sprites will be used outside of SE
16:12<andythenorth> makes other people happy, so I'll do it :P
16:17<@Terkhen>good night
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16:22*andythenorth ponders consolidating to just 'supplies'
16:23<Rubidium>andythenorth: just make it smurfs
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what good that would do...
16:23<Rubidium>then the smurf will smurf the smurf and smurf to smurf and smurf
16:25*andythenorth ponders unexpected palette issues
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16:31<Markk>Whoops, wrong channel. :)
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16:38<+glx>Rubidium: I'm used to schtroumpf
16:38<@Belugas>me too :)
16:38<@Belugas>wonder why !
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>they're called "Schlumpf" in german
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>on a related note:
16:46<andythenorth>what do primary industries need?
16:46<andythenorth>deliver passengers for production increase?
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>no, deliver passengers for production at all...
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>and take them home after an 8 hour shift
16:48<frosch123>someone suggested to deliver prisoners from prisons to mines
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's a use for the prisoner transport wagon :)
16:50<@Alberth>petrol & dynamite
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16:52*andythenorth replaces all FIRS supplies with Dynamite!
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>yes. deliver fishing grounds with dynamite!
16:53<@Alberth>and forests :)
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>(actually, fishing grounds don't even accept supplies)
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>(or do they? i don't remember)
16:53<andythenorth>the game already has dynamite
16:53<andythenorth>so I can just remove supplies
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16:54<andythenorth>can a newgrf enable magic dynamite?
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>make it "chemical supplies", to model dynamite and fertilizer
16:54<andythenorth>just dynamite the industry
16:54<andythenorth>problem solved
16:54*andythenorth ponders a new economy for FIRS
16:54<andythenorth>PAX only
16:55<andythenorth>I can rm -r * except for the cargo definitions code
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>missing -f ;)
16:55<@Alberth>in a repo? quite tricky :)
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, "svn/hg rm"
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17:01<@Belugas>schlumpf... smurfs... schtroumpfs... incredible how many strange sounds those guys have created :)
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17:33<appe>"horribly bad"
17:33<appe>how does one fix that? :)
17:36<__ln__>why is Dålig written with a capital D?
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17:36<__ln__>doesn't make sense
17:36<appe>i have lots of trains and airfields around the city
17:37<appe>is that whats causing it?
17:37<__ln__>and why isn't the title "Hudhams lokala ..." or "Lokala myndigheter i Hudham" or something...
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17:59<Zuu>__ln__: Shall I fix that in the translation? ;-)
18:03<__ln__>sure, if you agree to the points of my criticism about it
18:03<nicfer>is there any new about the new roads GRF API?
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18:10<Zuu>"Hemskt Dålig" corresponds to the worst rating. The one before is "Väldigt dålig" with a lowercase d. Thus one could think that the D is used to marke it is even worse.
18:11<Zuu>But I think it looks better with a lowercase d.
18:11<Zuu>If someone dissagree he can change it back :-p
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18:13<Zuu>appe: As it looks like you actually use the swedish translation, perhaps you should become a translator and help ironing out strange wordings that don't make sense in the context etc.
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18:14<Zuu>Get started here:
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18:25<Zuu>FS#4709 - save dialog hides behind news message <-- Oh.. interesting
18:26<Zuu>Someone is making a patch to allow windows to have a z-priority.
18:27<pjpe>they didn't before?
18:29<pjpe>seems like it would have been done i the last
18:29<pjpe>7 years
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>there's usually no need
18:31<appe>Zuu: im on it.
18:33<Zuu>pjpe: The windowmanager + widget toolkit in OpenTTD is of coures a bit limited compared to a fullblown gnome environment to take just one example. After all OpenTTD is a game and not a window manager. :-)
18:33<pjpe>a game a with a heck lotta windows
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>and a "window manager" from the DOS-age
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>(actually it was already improved to handle more windows simultaneously)
18:38<Zuu>And it has gained the ability to show more than one edit box on the screen at the same time. :-)
18:39<Zuu>What is still left is to implement ability to have more than one edit box in the same window.
18:40<Zuu>Oh and not to forget the change to dynamic sized widgets.
18:40<pjpe>what is with the weird onscreen keyboard thing that comes up when you double click a text entry window thing
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>that is something entirely different
18:40<pjpe>i never understood what that is for
18:40<Zuu>pjpe: It's for devices without a physical keyboard.
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>pjpe: it's an on-screen-keyboard, what's weird about that?
18:41<pjpe>whoa people play opened without a keyboard?
18:41<pjpe>that seems so strange
18:41<Zuu>Or if you really like to, you can use it on your desktop.
18:41<Eddi|zuHause>pjpe: handheld devices?
18:41<Zuu>People like to port OpenTTD to various devices.
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19:02<Adamos>Hi, is there somebody using OpenGRF+Industries?
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19:03<Adamos>i was trying to add iron ore mine to subarctic map - that worked fine, but no train was able to load iron ore. I tried lot of grfs combinations... none of them worked
19:04<Adamos>finally i tried just OpenGRF+Industries and OpenGRF+Trains in version 1.1.2
19:05<Adamos> in this thread seems everything is working just fine
19:05<pjpe>just making sure
19:06<pjpe>you're sure you can't just refit a wagon to hold it?
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19:12<Adamos>i have wagons which can carry iron ore (or water, or copper - i also tried) - but i just stays at 0%
19:12<Adamos>i can send you savegame file
19:13<Hirundo>Did you refit the wagon to the correct cargo?
19:13<Adamos>yeah, i have
19:14<pjpe>and you've tried placing the station right next to the industry?
19:14<Adamos>i did
19:16<Adamos>i just started multiplayer game, you can look at it - name is OpenGRF+industry BUG
19:19<Adamos>it seems my server is not visible... but still i can send savegame file
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19:51<pjpe>this is going to be an odd question
19:51<pjpe>how has pathfinding fundamentally changed since like 2006
19:51<Adamos>well, sorry for bothering you guys... fault on my side
19:51<pjpe>like i'm going through the old speed signal patch
19:51<pjpe>and it's adding the pathfinding cost code for the signals in 'pathfind.c'
19:51<pjpe>which not only doesn't seem to exist it's not before the code was changed to c++ i'm guessing
19:52<pjpe>can you not add cost factors to all pathfinders at once?
19:52<pjpe>or do you have to like patch npf, opt and yapf to add a cost to something?
19:56<Adamos>wish you good spirit with these pathfinding - i never had studied it too deep, but the bit i had is enough to hold all my fingers to you to solve it in reasonable way...
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20:09<Eddi|zuHause>pjpe: penalties for npf and yapf are separate, they also have separate settings
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>pf.yapf.* and pf.npf.*
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>pjpe: i think there are more up-to-date speedsignal patches
20:10<pjpe>oh damn
20:12<pjpe>i kinda want something to do but i'm not really sure what
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21:37<pjpe>eddi you wouldn't know if yapf takes in to account newgrf track speed limits already would it?
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---Logclosed Fri Aug 19 00:00:35 2011