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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-21

---Logopened Sun Aug 21 00:00:38 2011
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00:59<pjpe>what's the name of that newgrf that had station tiles like union station
00:59<pjpe>some prolific ones like that
01:13<pikka>poin mlanet
01:21<pjpe>i think it's the us set
01:21<pjpe>and it IS the toronto union station
01:21<pjpe>who would have guessed
01:34<LordAro>KittenKoder: similarly, i am thinking of switching from ubuntu to debian - everyone seems to say it's better, and ubuntu has beenn annoying me for ages :L
01:34<KittenKoder>Gentoo is really OpenSuse .... LOL
01:34<KittenKoder>I keep forgetting that.
01:35<KittenKoder>But yeah, Ubuntu just pissed me off, too unstable to use Blender 2.59 .....
01:35<KittenKoder>... and the last update made my desktop glitch on everything.
01:35<Rubidium>gentoo is opensuse? Really? In what sense?
01:36<KittenKoder>I don't know ....
01:36<LordAro>my reason for being annoyed with it is wireless drivers - it still fails to recognise my wireless-n card...
01:36<KittenKoder>Right now I'm so scatter brained so ... no tech questions.
01:36<KittenKoder>If it's a laptop card, don't do OpenSuse ....
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01:37<KittenKoder>Unless you know enough about Linux to do it manually.
01:37<LordAro>nah, standard pci wireless card
01:37<KittenKoder>PCMCIA-whatever cards are not natively supported.
01:37<LordAro>and, no, i don't :)
01:37<KittenKoder>Yeah, I have it on my laptop (now my big desktop to) and I just use USB for everything anyway.
01:38<KittenKoder>One weird thing is the ATI drivers seem to actually work ... didn't have to tweak anything to get them working right with Suse.
01:39<pjpe>that guy who did the us set has some absurdly nice stations not included in the grf
01:40<LordAro>the reason you shouldn't convert from a photo (or similar) - the buildinjgs just don't quite look right
01:40<KittenKoder>Those are nice ....
01:41<pjpe>he's even got the justice league terminal
01:43<LordAro>yeah, but look at 'Boston & Providence Station'
01:44<andythenorth>look at toronto :P
01:44<pjpe>well that has it's own problems
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01:44<pjpe>it's big
01:44<andythenorth>oz was nuts
01:44<pjpe>kinda ugly
01:45<pjpe>what happened to this guy
01:45<LordAro>life, from my understanding
01:45<Rubidium>we did give him the ponies he wanted quickly enough, I guess
01:45<pjpe>fuckin life
01:45<pjpe>that's always the reason
01:46<andythenorth>afaik life happened to oz
01:46<andythenorth>phd or such
01:46<andythenorth>or marriage
01:46<andythenorth>or job
01:46<Rubidium>I don't remember there being grass near Boston's (South) station
01:47<andythenorth>one of those things
01:47<andythenorth>oz was before my time, as was lifeblood
01:48<Rubidium>oh, and maybe also TTDPatch's demise?
01:48<LordAro>is ttdpatch officially dead now then?
01:48<andythenorth>oz != oztrans btw
01:51<andythenorth>so how would the pathfinder ban some ships on rivers?
01:51*andythenorth ponders
01:52<andythenorth>Rubidium: could just make use of prop 14/15?
01:52<Rubidium>LordAro: last trunk commit: over 7 months ago, last beta release: almost 5 years ago, last stable release: almost 8 years ago. You tell me whether that's dead or not
01:52<LordAro>pretty much then
01:52<LordAro>why did they never release a new beta?
01:52<andythenorth>to ban some ships from rivers, newgrf author sets FF for canal speed fraction? Hmm
01:53<andythenorth>LordAro: maybe there's no 'they' ?
01:53<Rubidium>andythenorth: yep, that's the idea. Although they can still go onto rivers... at appaling speeds
01:53<andythenorth>Rubidium: I think it's valid gameplay to differentiate between ocean / rivers / canals
01:54*andythenorth wonders - where are the water tile classes defined?
01:54<@planetmaker>var 0x60
01:54*andythenorth explores src
01:55<@planetmaker>they're part of the map array when tile is waterclass
01:56<andythenorth>water_cmd.cpp suggests me we have three water classes?
02:00<LordAro>19:53:34 LordAro hmmm... how can i find position of character in char array? google only shows stuff about c# and std::string... <-- i never did get a sufficient answer... :L - i should have said that i already have the character in question, i just need its position, surely there must be an easier way...
02:00<Rubidium>LordAro: strchr
02:01<LordAro>but i don't (necessarily) want the first instance...or the last
02:02<LordAro>basically, i want the position of that character, and theni want to 'add 1' to it so i get the next character
02:02<Rubidium>then either start again from the position of the last character + 1, or tell what you want on a slightly higher conceptual level
02:03<Rubidium>because you might be trying to do something in a quite ineffecient manner
02:03<LordAro>probably :)
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02:07*LordAro searches the logs to help him explain
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02:09<LordAro>this comment, and a few before, should explain:
02:18<LordAro> <-- problems from server move?
02:23<Rubidium>LordAro: (untested)
02:24<Rubidium>LordAro: unlikely; many people have signed up since the move
02:24<LordAro>thanks for the code :)
02:24<LordAro>many people sem to be having problems though
02:28<Rubidium>you don't want to know the number of "undeliverable mail" notifications we get
02:28<LordAro>:) from people giving fake email addresses?
02:29<Rubidium>mistyping addresses
02:29<Rubidium>full mailboxes
02:29<Rubidium>unreachable servers
02:29<LordAro>or that :L
02:30<andythenorth>planetmaker: var 0x60 for land... But there's no equivalent for vehicles?
02:30<andythenorth>I can't see one
02:30<andythenorth>might be unwise anyway
02:30<@planetmaker>that's what you have for the ocean_speed_fraction and alike
02:31*andythenorth wonders how that interacts with cb36
02:31<@planetmaker>:-) who knows
02:31<@planetmaker>probably those who can read code
02:31<andythenorth>as prop 14 / 15 have *never* been supported by ottd afaik...
02:32<andythenorth> might be better to keep it that way?
02:32<andythenorth>and use cb36 only to set speed
02:35<@planetmaker>they are already supported...
02:35<@planetmaker>but... hm... maybe
02:35<@planetmaker>conceptually that sounds better to me
02:35<@planetmaker>the cb approach
02:36<andythenorth>I don't know how often cb36 is called for speed
02:36<andythenorth>I use it in FISH
02:37<@planetmaker>not very often
02:37<@planetmaker>iirc only in depots, in stations(?) and on railtype change
02:38<andythenorth>it's definitely called in stations
02:38<andythenorth>prop 14 / 15 are fractions, so maybe it's fine to use them
02:39<andythenorth>I liked the idea of allowing ocean ships inland via canal
02:40<andythenorth>but maybe that's not important
02:42<LordAro>Rubidium: how would i use a SmallVector? (i'd grep source code, but... windows...)
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02:45<@planetmaker>if it doesn't work: use the proper tools. If the proper tools don't work: use the proper OS
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02:46<LordAro>proper tools + proper OS = no internet
02:48<@planetmaker>lol... I'm sure any somewhat recent OS allows network usage
02:49<LordAro>*no internet due to parents :/
02:49<@planetmaker>eh :S
02:50<@planetmaker>but still, there's a couple people using linux in a virtual box environment
02:50<@planetmaker>quite successfully :-)
02:50*andythenorth ponders upgrading FISH for rivers + cargo aging
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02:51<LordAro>planetmaker: i can't see myself installing virtualbox on this machine either
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02:51<LordAro>a) no admin b) takes ages!
02:52<@planetmaker>I'm sure your parents would be interested in you doing "real work" instead of gaming. Try to sell it to them that way :-)
02:52<@planetmaker>it wouldn't be a lie either :-)
02:52<LordAro>been trying for years :)
02:53<LordAro>nothing works anymore :L
02:53<@planetmaker>shall I write them? ;-)
02:53<LordAro>if you want :)
02:54<LordAro>any argument i use just comes back with "you spend too much time on it"
02:54<@planetmaker>he :-)
02:55<LordAro>re: virtualbox: it doesn't work on win2k :L
02:55<pjpe>there's someone out there still using windows 2000?
02:56<@planetmaker>I could certainly write a few sentences which explain that it might be a good thing to allow you use linux :-)
02:56<LordAro>oh yes
02:56<@planetmaker>I probably should not argue about time ;-)
02:56<LordAro>xp is 'too modern', plus my mum would flip if anything changed
02:57<@planetmaker>uhm... "too modern"? w2k is not supported anymore. It's becoming a security thread
02:57<LordAro>dad still uses 'classic' theme (start menu and stuff) on vista and 7 machines
02:57<pjpe>hell windows xp is probably going to be dropped soon
02:58<LordAro>planetmaker: thats what i keep telling him, but.. see the second part that message
02:58<LordAro>mum isn't very good with technology
02:58<@planetmaker>:-) I have such parents, too. It's difficult to teach them new 'tricks'
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02:59<LordAro>"isn't very good" = takes 1/2 hour to explain how to use digital tv(!) and then she forgets the next day
03:01<LordAro>its... frustrating
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03:08<Rubidium>LordAro: then you should be the admin on that box ;)
03:09<pjpe>oh wait
03:09<pjpe>windows 2000 passwords are easy to crack
03:09<pjpe>just remembered
03:09<LordAro>really? do tell :)#
03:10<pjpe>i don't remember if they had some vulnerability that you can use or if they just didn't salt the hashes
03:10<pjpe>but either way it should be easy
03:10*LordAro laughs evilly :)
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03:12<LordAro>of course, i don't want to change the password, otherwise they'll know, fairly instantly
03:13<pjpe>find out their password
03:13<pjpe>go in
03:13<Rubidium>just give your account admin privileges
03:13<pjpe>change your account to admin
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03:14<LordAro>that... would be fairly undetectable :)
03:14<Rubidium> ? :)
03:15<pjpe>there was some way to get in to windows 98 without logging in
03:15<pjpe>through some weird use of
03:15<pjpe>the help
03:15<pjpe>then opening a file
03:15<pjpe>then somehow launching explorer.exe?
03:16<Rubidium>just hit escape in the login screen?
03:16<pjpe>maybe that
03:16<Rubidium>or remove the .pwl files from the dos prompt
03:16<Rubidium>I wouldn't even dare to call it security by obscurity
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03:19<LordAro>Rubidium: i'll be sure to try the xp thing out at school, but it doesn't work here
03:19<Rubidium>too bad
03:25<LordAro>(from video cam of alaska anyone? :)
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03:38<andythenorth>Rubidium: are you going to mention rivers in forums? Or wait for people to figure it out? :)
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03:43<LordAro>Rubidium:i'm still not sure how i would use small vector (after your code) in the context of DrawString
03:50<Rubidium>LordAro: see a SmallVector as an array
03:51<Rubidium>which means you can do lines[i]
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03:51<LordAro>oh good :)
03:51<Rubidium>lines.Length() gives you the length of the array
03:52*LordAro worships
03:52<LordAro>hai Alberth
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03:52<@Alberth>hi LordAro, Rubidium
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04:12<Terkhen>good morning
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04:18<@planetmaker>moin Alberth, Ammler, Terkhen :-)
04:19<@Alberth>moin planetmaker, Terkhen, Ammler
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04:38<LordAro>Alberth: <-- care to elaborate?
04:38<@Alberth>in which way?
04:39<@Alberth>ie what do you want to know?
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04:48<Wolf01>suuuunday morning
04:52<@peter1138>bit velvety
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05:06<LordAro>Alberth: "...done a little ground work already..." <-- i.e. what have you done? :)
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05:15<@Alberth>thought about the global structure of the program (what parts exist, what part does what, how does it make steps in time); thought about global data structure of the grid that describes the world (what can you put in each cell, how many bits do you need); created some temp sprites for the world earth surface and a ride (not near the quality of the real game, but good enough to start); made a dump of things you might want to have available in th
05:15<@Alberth>no real code yet, thus also no screen shots or moving parts :p
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05:16<LordAro>shame :)
05:16<LordAro>but... thanks for info
05:17<Rubidium>oh, so like the window system about a year or so before it was done? ;)
05:18<@Alberth>Rubidium: but that was much smaller, and I had a working code base to work against
05:18<@Alberth>although the latter was a challenge in its own, sometimes :)
05:24<@Alberth>LordAro: there is literally nothing, so you first have to make a global picture of how to put it together, before you can start coding and have a chance of getting it working
05:25<LordAro>makes sense
05:26<@Alberth>and the big question of course is, when have you done enough? :p
05:27<LordAro>when you get bored/can't think of anything else?
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05:30<@Alberth>only the latter :) when I get bored, I stop working on it, and continue another time.
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06:55<Eddi|zuHause>what if you start from openttd and rip out the map array/replace it with a 3D array?
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>at least you have a complete viewport/gui then
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>and some rough game mechanics (tick progression, etc.)
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>of course you inherit lots of the limitations as well
06:57<@Alberth>actual code is usually not the problem, the real problem is in the design
06:57<@Alberth>and of course you can borrow blobs of code :)
06:58<@Alberth>but tim wanted to do gui, so that's out of my hands :) probably good, as I already know how that works, so it'd be very boring
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07:40<Zuu>There actually is a flag for when an aircraft is in holding (AMED_HOLD), I just never se it being set :-p
07:43<Zuu>In my first test runnig an aircraft between two airports, the aircraft have flag = 5 (dec) when it is in air (but also on ground at the runway-strip). value 5 (decimal) => AMED_SLOWTURN & AMED_NOSPDCLAMP
07:44<andythenorth>frosch123: prop 14 / 15 would be the least hassle to use
07:44<andythenorth>it's a question of ship set design...
07:44<Rubidium>I think there's only one airport with holding pattern
07:44<andythenorth>it would be interesting to keep ocean ships out of rivers by setting their speed very low
07:45<andythenorth>but this would be annoying when building a canal between pieces of sea
07:46<andythenorth>otoh, to connect two pieces of sea, just lower land to sea level - good enough solution
07:46<Zuu>Hmm, on a faster plane it actually uses the holding state :-s
07:46<andythenorth>could the values of prop 14 / 15 be shown in buy menu please?
07:47<Zuu>Rubidium: How do you mean only one airport?
07:49<Zuu>Aircrafts circle all airport types. Or do you mean that internally one airport have the circle-blocks coded specially as holding pattern?
07:49<Rubidium>only the city airport has AMED_HOLD
07:50<Zuu>Oh, then that's why my later test with a city airport worked but not with the small airport.
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>it was the only one updated with sensible holding patterns, afair
07:52<Zuu>So.. I might end up having to dig into the state machines of all other airports than the city ariport :-)
07:52<@Alberth>andythenorth: but if a ship is not supposed to travel a canal, then it being slow would be fine imo
07:52<andythenorth>I think it's fine too
07:52<andythenorth>I was thinking about ship canals
07:53<andythenorth>but screw that :P
07:53<@Alberth>Zuu: to find what
07:53<Zuu>I want to implement Aircraft::IsInHolding and export that to AIs.
07:53<Rubidium>just use AMED_HOLD ;)
07:53<Rubidium>and give the other airports proper holding circles as well
07:54<Zuu>Indeed :-)
07:54<Zuu>At least the state machine blocks are all commented.
07:55<@Alberth>hmm, I am trying to extract holding pattern out of airports :(
07:55<Zuu>It might as well be possible to via code enter the FTA at all entry points and iterate until you find wher it can enter landing.
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07:55<Zuu>Alberth: You too?
07:56<blathijs>Hmm, did automatic servicing get disabled in recent versions or something?
07:56<andythenorth>blathijs: usually a pathfinder issue
07:56<@Alberth>entry points go to holding patterns before finding landing spots
07:56<blathijs>While testing my new 1.1.2 Debian package, I got carried away with actually playing the game again, but trains are not getting serviced it eems
07:56<blathijs>andythenorth: yup
07:57<andythenorth>blathijs: you're probably using PBS signals
07:57<andythenorth>try putting a PBS signal on the tile before the depot entrance
07:57<andythenorth>usually helps
07:57<Rubidium>blathijs: screenshot?
07:57<blathijs>andythenorth: I did that
07:57<andythenorth>otherwise you just have to use forced 'goto depot' orders
07:57<@Alberth>s/putting/removing/ !
07:57<andythenorth>or turn off breakdowns
07:57<blathijs>Ah, removing
07:57<Zuu>Alberth: Before finding out about the AMED_HOLD flag, I though that I would have to iterate through the FTA to find out the holding pattern (unless adding a counter variable)
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07:57<@Alberth>and turn on servicing even if breakdowns enabled
07:58*andythenorth used forced serving orders for a bit, then got bored and disabled breakdowns
07:58<@Alberth>*disabled, even
07:58<andythenorth>RVs have the same issue
07:58<andythenorth>and servicing can result in stuck ships as well
07:59<@Alberth>Zuu: holding pattern is not more than a few points in the sky that point to each other, where the landing entry starts at one (or more) of those points if the aircraft can claim the block with the runway
07:59*andythenorth wonders where the frac column is in opengfx
07:59<Rubidium>blathijs: vehicles have a maximum pathfinder distance to depot for considering. Going through a path signal the wrong way is usually higher than the penalty you may have to go to the depot
08:00<blathijs>Rubidium: Ah, right
08:00<blathijs>Rubidium: Placing some extra depots might help as well, then
08:00<LordAro>feature request: configurable holding patterns :)
08:01<@Alberth>Zuu: extracting holding pattern as in moving it out of the airport state machine
08:01<Zuu>Alberth: Yes, and I've found out that those points are commented very well in airport_movement.h.
08:01<Zuu>Oh, I see.
08:01<Rubidium>actually, the idea of holding patterns is that planes come in high and fast and descent and slow down into the holding pattern
08:01<blathijs>Ok, removing the path signals as well as placing extra depots seem to have helped
08:02<@Alberth>that saves us the 5th bug report about it :)
08:02<andythenorth>removing the path signal? :o
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08:03*andythenorth usually has to add them
08:03<@Alberth>yep, adding blocks in front of depots can only cause trouble
08:03<andythenorth>I usually have trains reserving a path past the depot
08:03<Rubidium>I think andy means another location
08:04<andythenorth>without screenshots, this is probably a silly conversation :)
08:04<Rubidium>you have precisely in front of the depot: so one straight track with signal in front of the depot, or as close as possible to the junction to the depot
08:04<Rubidium>the former is 'wrong', the latter is 'good'
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that happens when the signal is too far before the switch to depot. once the path is reserved, it cannot be changed anymore
08:05<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22781 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Group global variables temporarily used during GRF loading into a struct.
08:06<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22782 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: Add GrfProcessingState::ClearDataForNextFile() to clear temporary data at a specific spot, esp. clear 'data_blocks' now.
08:06<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22783 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h): -Fix: Move Action 1 references from GRFFile to GrfProcessingState, and reset them after each loading stage.
08:07<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22784 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h): -Fix: Move Action 2 references from GRFFile to GrfProcessingState, and reset them after each loading stage.
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08:11<Zuu>Hmm, aircrafts that take off from the country airport visit one of the blocks that are used also ni the holding pattern :-)
08:12<Zuu>Resulting in an aircraft that has AMED_HOLD when flying in open air..
08:13<Zuu>But maybe I should wait and let Alberth solve the issue :-D
08:14<@Alberth>which block is that? after block 9 the aircraft leaves
08:14<Zuu>I would guess #17
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08:15<Zuu>It get AMED_HOLD just when it ends taking off. (I've added AMED_HOLD to 15, 16, 17 and 18)
08:16<@Alberth>that seems right, but how do you reach #17 at take off?
08:17<Zuu>hmm, I now start to believe it gets the AMED_HOLD flag from the other airport insetad.
08:17<Zuu>Eg. the entry point of an airport should not have the hold flag, or perhaps the aircraft get this flag when heading to the airport.
08:19<@Alberth>makes somewhat sense. Unfortunately, I don't yet know exactly when which flag gets applied where
08:19*andythenorth ponders sugar
08:20*Zuu pounders coffe
08:21<@Alberth>coffee with sugar is more drinkable than sugar with coffee
08:22<Rubidium>in any case it's tasting awful
08:23*Alberth nods
08:23<Zuu>Indeed, better just keep the coffee black or add some milk
08:23<@planetmaker>black is beautiful and tasty ;-)
08:32<Ammler>I like to have one blob of milk just for the color :-)
08:32<Zuu>I do that sometimes too
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08:33<Ammler>but please no sugar :-)
08:36<andythenorth>FIRS has sugar cane and sugar beet
08:36<andythenorth>which are one cargo with a string swapped in tropic
08:37<andythenorth>which is...messy
08:37<andythenorth>should I (a) make it two cargos (they need to be handled differently by vehicles anyway)
08:37<andythenorth>or (b) make it 'Raw Sugar'
08:38<@planetmaker>Why is it messy?
08:38<andythenorth>it's an arse to maintain
08:38<andythenorth>and the vehicle support is silly
08:38<andythenorth>sugar cane is handled quite differently to sugar beet
08:39<andythenorth>realism is not at all important, except when it is
08:39<Rubidium>just make them different cargos
08:40<andythenorth>now would be a good time to do that
08:40<Rubidium>possibly mostly the same, so sharing the ID, and enabled based on the climate
08:40<andythenorth>but with different label
08:40<Rubidium>same internal ID, not the label ofcourse
08:40<andythenorth>currently they both share RSGR
08:42<@planetmaker>urgs... different cargos. Why? Just another hassle for vehicles
08:42<@planetmaker>Do they really need different vehicle support?
08:43<andythenorth>do we really need any of this? :P
08:44<andythenorth>We break ECS labels currently, and offer vehicle set author no way out of it other than to detect FIRS and offer climate specific vehicles
08:44<andythenorth>which is wrong
08:44<@planetmaker>hm, yes
08:45<@planetmaker>ok, go right ahead then. Somewhat convinced
08:45<Hirundo>Does ECS have RSGR too? (not acc wiki)
08:45<Hirundo>"RSGR Raw Sugar 0010 Bulk FIRS Sugar cane in tropic, sugar beet in other climates "
08:46<andythenorth>I mean ECS as MB means ECS (ish)
08:46<Hirundo>MB ECS has only one cargo type (yet): vapor
08:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22785 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: rename IsGeneratingWorld to HasModalProgress
08:46*andythenorth goes back to drawing
08:47*andythenorth stops drawing :P
08:47<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22786 /trunk/src/ (genworld.cpp genworld.h genworld_gui.cpp gfx.cpp openttd.cpp): -Codechange: rename genworld mutices to model_progress mutices
08:47<frosch123>displays the info in purchase screen
08:47<frosch123>the vehicle gui always shows the current limit
08:47<frosch123>the info is currently not available to ais
08:47<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22787 /trunk/src/ (genworld.h genworld_gui.cpp gfx.cpp): -Codechange: rename genworld redraw constant
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08:48<frosch123>exposing the waterclass to cb36 in the purchase list likely means trouble
08:48<frosch123>there is only one sort-order in the purchase list for speed
08:48<frosch123>not per ocean/canal
08:48<andythenorth>setting a prop is easier than footling with varaction 2 anyway
08:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22788 /trunk/ (15 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: move modal progress related functions and variables to progress.cpp/h
08:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22789 /trunk/src/ (genworld.cpp genworld_gui.cpp window_type.h): -Codechange: rename generation window class to modal progress
08:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22790 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_config.cpp newgrf_config.h): -Codechange: add callback for when NewGRF scanning is complete
08:50<andythenorth>sugar cane moves like this, sugar beet less so:
08:50<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22791 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Codechange: use callback for scanning from the NewGRF window
08:50<andythenorth>also this:
08:50<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22792 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Codechange: use scan callback for initial NewGRF scanning
08:51<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22793 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove callback default to make clear they are not forgotten
08:51<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22794 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Codechange: let window drawing determine which windows may be drawn when a modal progress is busy
08:51<andythenorth>frosch123: does it only display if prop 14 & 15 are set?
08:52<andythenorth>that would make sense...
08:52<frosch123>only when the values are different
08:52<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22795 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Codechange: load the intro game the first time without NewGRFs
08:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22796 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Codechange: run the NewGRF scanning in a separate thread
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08:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22797 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Add: progress bar for scanning NewGRFs
08:53<@planetmaker>that's actually a feature ;-)
08:53<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22798 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Change: jump immediately to the next mode after scanning (if needed)
08:53<frosch123>poor eddi gets totally spammed with commit messages :p
08:54<@planetmaker>hu, @ frosch123?
08:54<andythenorth>so it's incumbent on me as newgrf author not to set prop 14 as FF
08:54<LordAro>rubidium: @r22795 - does that mean any savegame can be loaded, regardless of newgrfs?
08:54<frosch123>planetmaker: he complained yesterday, that there are too many commits this weekend
08:54<andythenorth>if ship prop 14 is FF we shall all have a lot of fun bug reports
08:54<@planetmaker>poor guy.
08:54<LordAro>planetmaker: ^ i was thinkng the exact same thing :)
08:55<frosch123>andythenorth: i wonder whether prop 14/15 make actually any sense
08:55<andythenorth>frosch123: / anyone - would it make sense to floor ship speed at 1mph irrespective of prop 14
08:55<frosch123>is there any case were you would not set them to basically "yes" or "no"?
08:55<andythenorth>quite plausible that speed might vary
08:56<frosch123>ok, you are the english one :)
08:56<andythenorth>depends on hull design
08:56<frosch123>what do you mean with "floor ship speed"?
08:56<frosch123>well, i hope that is already done :p
08:57<andythenorth>setting speed to 0mph results in stuck ships and no way to fix it
08:57<andythenorth>it isn't done
08:57<Rubidium>LordAro: no, if it were with NewGRFs it will still be horribly broken
08:57<andythenorth>anyway - if you set boats to 'rivers only' they will be useless where rivers turn into lakes
08:57<andythenorth>already the griefing opportunities for ships will be quite significant
08:58<andythenorth>(those are unrelated points)
08:58<@planetmaker>:-) building canal on the sea... lovely
08:58<andythenorth>harder now that build-while-paused is gone
08:58<@planetmaker>it's not gone
08:58<@planetmaker>it's just a setting
08:58<@planetmaker>not a cheat
08:59<Zuu>a setting that can now be set to allow everything when paused
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09:10<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22799 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix (r22792): compile failure when there is no networking support
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09:19<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22800 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Fix (r22796): don't run the scanning threaded when there is no reason to do so (no UI to update)
09:19<LordAro>yay! r22.8k :)
09:20<Rubidium>we should do a bananas download party every 10M, that'd be much more parties
09:20<Rubidium>~34.8M at the moment
09:22<LordAro>mingw is soooo slow...
09:23<andythenorth>please please can we have 1 or 2 tile locks?
09:23<andythenorth>1 tile might be a bit easy
09:23<andythenorth>2 tile could be...interesting
09:24<andythenorth>would it cause epic savegame breakage?
09:24<LordAro>not if the original lock was kept :)
09:28<andythenorth>also - can lock be allowed to overbuild river, without requiring bulldozer
09:30*andythenorth thinks of an extension to station names
09:30<andythenorth>do we have 'lakeside' and 'riverside' and 'waterside'?
09:30<frosch123>andythenorth: ships do not drive upwards 50% slopes
09:31<andythenorth>realism is invoked when it suits :P
09:31<frosch123>build winding canals if you really have to use ships in such landscape :p
09:32<frosch123>mind that ships do not change speed in locks
09:32<appe>there is something special with playing openttd whilst riding a train.
09:32<andythenorth>it basically renders rivers useless without a lot of money in the bank
09:32<frosch123>so if you can pass a hill as if there is nothing, ships are totally imbalanced
09:33<andythenorth>the need to canalise most of a river renders them kind of pointless, which is sad
09:33<andythenorth>on the plus side, the game is now compliant with the original image of temperate climate in new game menu
09:35<Hirundo>balance-wise, canals should be the one and only long-range bulk transportation system in the early game
09:36<andythenorth>"navigable rivers + coastal shipping" would be a more accurate claim :P
09:36<andythenorth>or is that too easy wrt building infrastructure?
09:36<Hirundo>Even if you'd need to invest a 100-200k GBP to build a few locks, it's still pretty awesome, methinks
09:36<Hirundo>as it has unlimited capacity
09:37<Hirundo>If you need 100 horse carriages to do the same, the running cost of those adds up pretty quickly
09:38*Hirundo ponders starting the next FIRS game early
09:38<frosch123>well, maybe riverslopes should be passable unless there are two in a row or so?
09:39<Hirundo>that'd get confusing fairly quickly, I think
09:40<frosch123>yeah :(
09:40<Hirundo>rather, we should have newgrf ship ports that don't require so much terraforming and canal-building
09:48<andythenorth>frosch123: a 2 tile lock instead of 3 tiles would be sufficient
09:48<andythenorth>it can still be expensive
09:48<andythenorth>and you wouldn't be able to go up long slopes with them
09:48<andythenorth>even though that's unrealistic :P
09:53<andythenorth>looks...great no?
09:53<andythenorth>for definitions where 'great' == 'sucks' :P
09:54<__ln__>the water doesn't clearly show slopes
09:54<andythenorth>I would put money on the docks being 3 tiles long for ttdp reasons
09:55<andythenorth>there is no good gameplay reason for it
10:01<frosch123>sure there is
10:01<frosch123>and you should use longer rivers
10:03<Hirundo>Doing shipping on such rivers isn't 'realistic' anyways
10:05<frosch123>yeah, not every river is suitable for transportation
10:05<frosch123>and i think that is completely fine
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10:10*andythenorth ponders making FIRS locate industries near to rivers
10:11<+michi_cc>The river width (in tiles) could be gradually increased toward the sink, gives a more "realistic" look and better shipping opportunities.
10:11<andythenorth>also - how to get longer rivers?
10:13<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22801 /trunk/src/ (pathfinder/yapf/yapf_ship.cpp ship.h ship_cmd.cpp): -Feature: [YAPF] Take canal/ocean speed fraction of ships into account.
10:19<andythenorth>votes please ^^
10:20<LordAro>no. 2
10:21<__ln__>agreed, number 2 seems like a more concrete option
10:22<lugo>i think no.2 is the more solid choice
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10:23<Rubidium>maybe some muddy tracks on #2?
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10:55*andythenorth will have to stop avoiding nml soon :P
10:59<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22802 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r22781): Coding style.
10:59<Ammler>hehe, do your "slaves" code too bad?
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12:00<@Alberth>he's running out of 'please code this for me' coupons ;)
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12:02<andythenorth>there are coupons?
12:05<@planetmaker>yup. They're called cookies and cake
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12:48<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22803 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix (r22796): clicking should not work either when hiding windows
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13:35<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> exposing the waterclass to cb36 in the purchase list likely means trouble <-- water class should be handled the same way as tracktype, maybe.
13:36<@planetmaker>that's what I thought, too
13:36<@planetmaker>it is a tracktype after all of some sorts
13:36<@planetmaker>but... the *speed_fraction is there now...
13:36<@planetmaker>and of course these ideas only come up when the deed is done ;-)
13:37<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yup, thus exposing it in the purchase list is as hard as exposing the tracktype
13:39<frosch123>stating from issues like what to report when no depot is at hand (available vehicle list, newspaper, engine preview), to pure coding issues like passing a depottile to tones of Engine member functions which currently know nothing about depots
13:39<frosch123>and the list continues with pathfinder issues, noai issues ,...
13:40<frosch123>i guess doing r22801 with cb36 is kind of impossible
13:42<andythenorth>leave it be :P
13:42<andythenorth>prop 14/15 are sufficient
13:43<andythenorth>there are bigger fish to fry
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13:44*andythenorth finally got around to improving sugar refinery:
13:45<alluke>well done
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22804 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: french - 3 changes by glx
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: german - 3 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: lithuanian - 13 changes by vytulis7
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 182 changes by Peymanpn
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14:12<blathijs>Damn, I forgot how addictive OpenTTD was
14:12<blathijs>I just wanted to test my Debian package to see if it ran succesfully, but I've been playing all day...
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>haha :)
14:12*planetmaker hugs blathijs :-)
14:13<@planetmaker>at least you now know (again) why you're still in this channel :-P
14:14*andythenorth ponders
14:14<blathijs>Hadn't really played OpenTTD for a few years, I think
14:14<andythenorth>trying to locate industries near rivers is likely to lead to long map gen times :(
14:14<blathijs>so much has changed :-)
14:16<Hirundo>andythenorth: near rivers or near water?
14:16<andythenorth>near rivers
14:16<Rubidium>blathijs: that at least proves it works in some cases
14:16<Hirundo>afaik (old?) ECS shipyard needed placement in towns and near water
14:17<Hirundo>that industry was often not placed at all :)
14:17<Hirundo>near rivers may not work when river generation is not enabled
14:17<andythenorth>Rubidium: the river generator gets awesome results on a flat landscape
14:17<andythenorth>proper river systems with tributaries etc
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14:19<@planetmaker>Hirundo: FIRS fishing harbours also need town vicinity + water. But it works
14:20<@planetmaker>andythenorth: wrt placement of water grain mills: I'd not force that explicitly. E.g. such industries always also should have layouts which work w/o river requirements as they can't be guarateed to be present
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14:20<@planetmaker>but if there are such layouts, they'll spawn in swampy conditions
14:20<Hirundo>ship yards needed to be in a specific town zone IIRC, how does it work for harbours?
14:21<@planetmaker>16 tiles within town centre or so
14:21<@planetmaker>no zoning
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14:22<@planetmaker>hm.. or 56. Dunno anymore. Some arbitrary number
14:22<Ackmey>Hey all, how do I get my airport to take goods from the refinery that's next to it?
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>by sending a vehicle that loads them
14:24<Ackmey>So I have to have an oil truck move back and forth between the airport and the refinery?
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>oil trucks won't load goods
14:24<@Alberth>if the airport is not in the range of the refinery, yes
14:24<Ackmey>transport truck or w/e, rather
14:24<Ackmey>The airport is in range though, they're right next to each other
14:24<Ackmey>one tile away
14:25<Ackmey>It accepts oil for the refinery
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14:26<Ackmey>But can't take goods
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't have anything that loads goods, no goods will appear
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>(also, if you have no oil, no goods will appear either)
14:28<Ackmey>I do have oil
14:29<@planetmaker>delivered to it?
14:29<LordAro>in confusing cases such as this, a savegame is usually requested
14:30<Ackmey>Yes it's getting oil and producing goods but nothing happens to the goods
14:31<@planetmaker>then just start to pick them up from a station which has the refinery in its catchment area
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14:32<Ackmey>Yeah I managed to get a truck to pick the goods up
14:32<Ackmey>but I need to get them to the airport
14:32<andythenorth>how to get a map with some steep mountains + some flat plains?
14:32<andythenorth>variety distribution doesn't do that
14:32<andythenorth>variety distribution is a bit bollocks in my experience :P
14:32<LordAro>Ackmey: transfer and leave empty
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>Ackmey: so what's supposed to happen with them at the airport'?
14:33<Ackmey>The truck only interfaces with truck stops though so all I can do now is move my goods from one stop to the next
14:33<Ackmey>and at the airport a refitted plane would pick them up and deliver to a city
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>so where is your refitted plane now?
14:34<Ackmey>In the airport
14:34<Ackmey>Okay I had the truck on deliver instead of transfer
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>and you are sure it is refitted?
14:34<Ackmey>don't know what the difference is
14:35<Ackmey>Yep plane gives me capacity in goods
14:36<Ackmey>so I have a bunch of goods in a truck station right next to the airport.
14:36<@planetmaker>is it the same station?
14:36<@planetmaker>not two separate ones?
14:36<Ackmey>two seperate ones
14:37<Ackmey>I'll upload my savegame somewhere
14:38<Ackmey>Where does the game save to by default?
14:39<@planetmaker>but might be unhelpful
14:39<Ackmey>My first game, don't judge me harshly :P
14:39<Ackmey>Area is
14:40<Ackmey>in the east
14:41*andythenorth ponders new station name suffixes
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14:44<andythenorth>not so river related :P
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>(compare: Koblenz)
14:46<andythenorth>if only irc was code :P
14:46<LordAro>Ackmey: i do not understand why you have put a road vehicle route in. all you need is a plane (refitted to goods) going from the airport to another
14:46<Ackmey>That's what I was doing before
14:46<Ackmey>It wasn't taking goods
14:47<LordAro>oh, and to transfer goods they need to be the same station (no tile in between)
14:47<LordAro>currently, your road vehicle route is taking all the goods
14:48<Ackmey>But before I put the road route in
14:48<Ackmey>It didn't work
14:48<LordAro>got your problem: with the plane, Plunbourne Cross Airport order is set to 'unload and leave empty'
14:49<Ackmey>Gahhh stupid me
14:49<Ackmey>Can I destroy all the truck stuff?
14:50<LordAro>Ackmey: regarding your orders in general: you don't need to add 'unload and take cargo' stuff - usually, you only need those for more complex routes
14:50<andythenorth>named rivers?
14:50<LordAro>the vehicles can usually work out when to load/unload by themselves
14:51<LordAro>andythenorth: use signs :P
14:51<andythenorth>why can't the game use signs for me?
14:51<Ackmey>so I can just point them to destinations and let them do it?
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14:51<LordAro>Ackmey: yes :)
14:51<andythenorth>oh wrong animal :P
14:51<Ackmey>Okay :D
14:51<andythenorth>can an AI find rivers?
14:51*andythenorth ponders river-naming-AI
14:51<Ackmey>Problem though, the airplane is still not picking up any goods
14:52<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: Named rivers, and towns named after said rivers?
14:52<@planetmaker>andythenorth: river naming is pointless as long as they don't restore themselves
14:52<andythenorth>omg, imagine
14:52<LordAro>Ackmey: you've destroyed the road stations?
14:52<andythenorth>planetmaker: it bothers you they don't restore themselves?
14:52<@planetmaker>GermanTowns are (often) named after rivers. Also in OpenTTD ;-)
14:53<@planetmaker>andythenorth: bother is stronger than it is. But it's on my "nice-to-have" list ;-)
14:53<@planetmaker>sea also restores itself
14:54<andythenorth>you'd need to leave the tile marked as river tile? no matter what else happened to it?
14:54<andythenorth>^ if I connect those rivers, I can cross half the map by inland water
14:54<@planetmaker>there you go ;-)
14:54<alluke>sounds fun
14:54<andythenorth>although I'll have to destroy most of them to become canals :P
14:54<LordAro>planetmaker: wouldn't be too difficult to have? just run the pathfinder with the 2 separated bits of river
14:55<@planetmaker>I usually can cross my maps by water anyway :-P
14:55<@planetmaker>LordAro: yes and no... the river would need to know it has been severed
14:55<andythenorth>I might change the style of map I use
14:55<Ackmey>LordAro: It works now
14:55<Ackmey>thanks for the help :)
14:56<@planetmaker>but I found out that I should use medium variety distribution rather than very high.
14:56<@planetmaker>better rivers ;-)
14:56<LordAro>planetmaker: surely the game can find out whattile was under the bulldozer?
14:56<LordAro>Ackmey: no problem
14:56<@planetmaker>LordAro: currently: not
14:56<@planetmaker>it's not stored, the tile class is set to normal land
14:56<LordAro>odd :)
14:56<@planetmaker>that#s also done at sea. But sea just floods.
14:56<LordAro>i would've thought it would :)
14:57<@planetmaker>thus what could maybe be a solution is to check each river tile to have a sea connection... but then the lakes don't work anymore
14:57<@planetmaker>thus there's an odditiy, too to be solved
14:57<andythenorth>with medium variety distribution I get almost no rivers
14:57<LordAro>but again, a check to see what's under the tile before it's destroyed?
14:57<andythenorth>try variety distribution off - it's a crappy thing anyway
14:57<andythenorth>could rivers actually be entities?
14:57<@planetmaker>off? No...
14:58<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22805 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move use of magic number for version checking to more logical location
14:58<andythenorth>currently we speak of rivers, but we mean river tiles
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14:58<@planetmaker>hm... I still have to get used to the newgrf scan window :-)
14:58<andythenorth>can a river actually be an entity? it has a source during map gen
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15:02<@planetmaker> <-- andy, how does medium generate few rivers? ;-)
15:04<andythenorth>who knows
15:04<andythenorth>landscape gen is a crap shoot
15:04<andythenorth>I just tried 'very smooth' and 'mountainous' with variety off, and got some more awesome systems
15:05<andythenorth>I am going to have to change play style :P
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15:05<andythenorth>very steep, very small islands are out of fashion :P
15:05<@planetmaker>oh... very smooth is sooooo boring. This is rough
15:05<@planetmaker>and mountainous
15:06<LordAro>thats what she said
15:06<@planetmaker>rough is the minium roughness I play with ;-)
15:06<andythenorth>Rubidium: is it deliberate the that the river gen creates realistic continental divides?
15:06<Rubidium>you mean rivers not flowing up a hill?
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15:11<andythenorth>I mean rivers flowing towards sea either side of a hill,
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15:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's quite rare that a river splits and then flows in two different direction
15:13<Rubidium>the algorithm finds (recursively) the closest lower flat tile and makes a river between those waypoints
15:13<Rubidium>so yes, it's meant to be going down the hill as fast as possible
15:15<andythenorth>it's pretty good
15:16*andythenorth has mostly spent today in the company of 'newgame' :P
15:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22806 /trunk/src/ (language.h strgen/strgen.cpp strings.cpp): -Codechange: store the number of untranslated strings in the language file
15:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22807 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Feature-ish: show a message about missing strings in the intro window if a certain (configurable) threshold has been reached and its not a stable release
15:23-!-Steve776 [~Steve776@] has joined #openttd
15:24<Steve776>hey, new guy here
15:24-!-Steve776 [~Steve776@] has quit []
15:24<Prof_Frink>hey, new guy there
15:25-!-Steve776 [~Steve776@] has joined #openttd
15:25<Steve776>hey guys
15:25<@Alberth>hi new guy
15:25<Steve776>new lad here
15:26<Steve776>hey Albert
15:26<@Alberth>please try to stay a little longer :)
15:26<Steve776>is this the place to ask questions?
15:26<Steve776>lol I will try
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15:26<Eddi|zuHause>that was a nice try.
15:27<andythenorth>he's on a phone?
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15:36<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22808 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Change [FS#4740]: make it less likely that a one tile wide lake is created
15:37<andythenorth>Alone pixel a day?
15:37<andythenorth>Alberth: one pixel a day?
15:37<andythenorth>try at least 10^3 :P
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15:38<andythenorth>another one?
15:38-!-Devroush [] has joined #openttd
15:39<@Alberth>'ten to the power of three' does not sound as good as 'one'
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15:40<Eddi|zuHause>nah... physicists occasionally treat 300.000km/s as "one"
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15:42<Rubidium>oh, I thought as 12
15:45<@planetmaker>Wheeler: Gravitation
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15:45<@planetmaker>c = epsilon = mu = G = 1
15:45<@planetmaker>enough knowledge in one book to kill with :-P
15:46<@planetmaker>that's why the book is probably in black cover
15:46<andythenorth>is there a name for a large amount of pixels?
15:47<@planetmaker>it only has 0.9MByte. ogfx+landscape has 3MByte ;-)
15:47<@planetmaker>repetition rules :-P
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>CETS is already several MB without a significant number of (useful) images
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15:55<@planetmaker>yup :-)
15:55<@planetmaker>as the same thing is included again and again
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15:59<Eddi|zuHause>grf is way inefficient in compressing redundancy over different sprites
15:59*andythenorth tries to break rubidium's river fix
15:59<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Do you pass -c to nmlc?
15:59<@planetmaker>michi_cc: we do
16:00<@planetmaker>hm... do we?
16:00*planetmaker starts to wonder
16:00<+michi_cc>Where? grep won't find a -c for me
16:00<+michi_cc>NML_FLAGS in scripts/Makefile.def is set to empty...
16:01<@planetmaker>I expected it in scripts/Makefile.def
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i have no clue about the makefile... i only do the code generator :p
16:01<andythenorth>Rubidium: less likely that the terrain generator makes a 1 tile lake? Or just the river generator?
16:01<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: pseudo sprites are uncompressed
16:02<frosch123>and i think in the big grfs they are actually the majority :p
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but two real sprites with the same or similar content are not compressed either
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: compression is done for each real sprite individually
16:03<frosch123>yeah, but still, i think pseudo sprites have the bigger effect
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>could just teach openttd to read .tar.gz/bz2/xz
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16:05<pjpe>how did ttdpatch do building over tunnel entrances?
16:05<pjpe>did they have a grf that does the uh
16:05<pjpe>sprite for building over a tunnel?
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>cets.grf: 3874227, cets.tar.gz: 225463
16:05*planetmaker tests with -c
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's almost factor 20
16:06<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: reading compressed files isn't a problem. Scanning through them in random order (sprite loading) is
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>pjpe: it just prints the rail over the tunnel sprite, whatever the sprite looks like
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: so we need a compression algorithm that is good in random access, or a very large sprite cache
16:08<Rubidium>I thinnk CETS just duplicates sprites too much
16:08<Rubidium>or has way too much 'blue' around them
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: yes, lots of duplicates. firstly, all wagons are currently green blobs, secondly, sprites are duplicated for different xrel/yrel values
16:10<Rubidium>as I don't think it got some 10k different real sprites
16:10<pjpe>eddi when would that ever really conflict with a newgrf then
16:10<Eddi|zuHause>we have something in the order of 300 different vehicles, each with 24 views
16:11<pjpe>i thought that was the reason people didn't really make that patch
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>pjpe: it looks totally rubbish with the default graphics
16:12<pjpe>having a floating rail?
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>yes, rail without ballast, even.
16:12<pjpe>doesn't look so bad there
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>it looks horrible
16:13<andythenorth>it looks bloody awful
16:13<andythenorth>meanwhile :D
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it probably gets more silly on rough maps
16:15<andythenorth>this is neat:
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>why is there a lonely piece of desert?
16:16<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: Congratulations. You've invented original-ai rivers.
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16:22<V453000>the new rivers are quite nice :)
16:22<@planetmaker>yup :-)
16:23<andythenorth>understatement of the week :P
16:24<@SmatZ>well, it could be worse
16:24*SmatZ hugs andythenorth
16:26<pikka2>another beautiful moin...
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16:29<andythenorth>SmatZ is very huggy
16:29<andythenorth>lo pikka2
16:29<andythenorth>why is an SSD so rinsingly expensive
16:29*andythenorth wants one
16:29<pikka2>morning andy pandy
16:30<pikka2>I guess it's time to get this bus moving, ttyl
16:30<@planetmaker>hello pikka2
16:30<@planetmaker>morning... is good :-)
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16:55<andythenorth>we should teach power stations to build next to rivers
16:56<andythenorth>or is that just in the uk?
16:57<@planetmaker>nuclear plants prefer rivers or tectononic ridges
16:58<+glx>nuclear plants need water
16:59*andythenorth is going to bed
16:59<andythenorth>good night
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17:08<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure water also helps in coal power plants ;)
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17:14<@planetmaker>well... except in wind and solar power, water might come in handy everywhere else
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>solar power works also way better with water... photo voltaic is meh...
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17:34<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: i seem to remember that photovoltaic also works better with water - cools them down (think computers :) )
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17:35<Eddi|zuHause>computers work horribly with water.
17:35<appe>that does actually work
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>i fail to see _anything_ on that picture
17:36<appe>its a mess, i know.
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>no... it's just pixels
17:38<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: i mean, the cooler, the better sort of thing ;)
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: water is still the worst thing to use for that
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: you know, water leads electricity.
17:39<LordAro>well, water on top of the panels, obviously not inside them...
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>and there is no way to get it pure enough that it doesn't
17:40<+glx>oil is better
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: as soon as you add water to anything, it _will_ leak
17:40<Eddi|zuHause>it's not even a question of "when", but only "how much"
17:41<LordAro>meh, just what i heard :)
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17:43<LordAro>the panels in question were (i believe) in Jamaica, so, a bit hotter than here, and apparently the heat was reducing efficiency. the owner apparently put a water sprayer on them, and it was much better
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18:07<Eddi|zuHause>some crazy shit seems to be going on in libya right now...
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 22 00:00:40 2011