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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-22

---Logopened Mon Aug 22 00:00:40 2011
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01:25<pjpe>was there ever a time when you could have rail cross over monorail?
01:26<@planetmaker>yup. Even now. By bridge and tunnel :-)
01:26<Rubidium>not at the same level
01:26<@planetmaker>moin also :-)
01:26<Rubidium>quak
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01:27<pjpe>you europeans
01:27<pjpe>you ever have a burger
01:27<pjpe>with schnitzel as the meat
01:27<pjpe>and sauerkraut as the topping?
01:28<@planetmaker>rolls with schnitzel: yes. But I don't call it a burger. But without sauerkraut
01:28<Rubidium>sounds more like Japanese breakfast
01:28<@planetmaker>and only at BBQ :-)
01:28<pjpe>it's not as good as you'd think it was
01:28<pjpe>i wish i could buy some good schnitzel here
01:28<pjpe>without going far away
01:29<Rubidium>but what's a Japanese breakfast with rice and raw egg?
01:29<pjpe>have to settle for duck sausage with foie gras
01:29<pjpe>and fries cooked in duck fat
01:29<pjpe>oh well
01:29<Rubidium>s/with/without/
01:29<@planetmaker>uh... _raw_ egg?
01:29<Rubidium>planetmaker: yes, raw egg
01:29<@planetmaker>Now, that's disgusting :-)
01:30<pjpe>doesn't raw egg give you food poisoning or someting
01:30<@planetmaker>Funnily the one week I could enjoy Japan I never got raw egg.
01:30<@planetmaker>pjpe, nope
01:30<pjpe> huh
01:30<pjpe>any downside to eating it raw?
01:30<@planetmaker>not really
01:30<pjpe>gotta try that
01:30<@planetmaker>Unless it is contaminated with salmonella
01:30<@planetmaker>which die when you fry or cook it
01:31<@planetmaker>thus it's slightly more dangerous
01:31<@planetmaker>but I lived my whole life without that happening... there are several food which require egg to be raw and which are not cooked
01:32<Rubidium>http://pipichan.info/wp-content/gallery/recipes/tamagokake.jpg <- jummy
01:33<Rubidium>I've also been served carbonara with almost raw egg; it became slightly cooked over time due to the warm pasta (in Japan)
01:33<@planetmaker>yup, Carbonara is one of those dishes
01:33<@planetmaker>Italian seem to like it ;-)
01:33<@planetmaker>Like also in tiramisu
01:34<@planetmaker>though... Sauce Hollandaise also is rather raw egg :-)
01:34<@planetmaker>hm, you're right, Rubidium, I _did_ see that over there. I just didn't eat it :-)
01:36<Rubidium>Hollandaise is less raw than say... mayonaise
01:36<@planetmaker>well... 40°C is a temperature where nearly nothing dies ;-)
01:36<Rubidium>(Hollandaise has to be heated to ~375K
01:36<@planetmaker>ehm... no?
01:37<Rubidium>oh... wrong maths
01:37<Rubidium>335K ;)
01:38<Rubidium>I hate it there's no degree key; makes talking about degrees Celsius so hard
01:38<@planetmaker>like °C?
01:38<@planetmaker>use a German layout ;-)
01:38<Rubidium>anyhow, 62°C according to wikipedia
01:38<@planetmaker>you have the ~ there probably
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01:39<@planetmaker>hm, I'd have said like 40°C... but... maybe the egg still survives 60°C
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01:41<@planetmaker>so maybe I'd be better off making Sauce Hollandaise only on Mount Everest and alike ;-)
01:41<@planetmaker>Can't get too hot there :-P
01:41<@planetmaker>water boils there at 70°C
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01:44<Rubidium>http://recipes.coles.com.au/recipes/746/picture-700x255/japanese-pork-schnitzel-with-teriyaki-glaze.jpg <- that, with a bit of Miso is what I took as breakfast though. Didn't want to experiment too much with my health after the stomach of some others didn't cope well
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01:45<@planetmaker>looks about typical. I'm missing the all-present fish, though
01:47<Rubidium>maybe that's a local thing
01:47<Rubidium>can't remember much fish in Osaka
01:47<@planetmaker>My experience is from Kyoto and Kobe. In any case I found the Japanese food easier and nicer to eat than British ;-)
01:47<pjpe>come on guy
01:47<pjpe>can't go wrong with a nice cornish pastie
01:48<pjpe>or shepherd's pie
01:48<@planetmaker>you know... there are Itialian, French, Thai, German, Mexican, Japanese, Indian,... cooking books. But I've never seen a British ;-)
01:49<pjpe>don't need one
01:49<Rubidium>I still refuse to go to Burger King due to the quality of something that pretended to be food I got served in the UK
01:49<pjpe>meat + potato + vegetable
01:49<pjpe>done
01:49<pjpe>maybe you some time wrap it in bread
01:49<pjpe>maybe one day you deep fry it
01:50<pjpe>wait do germans ever have a big ol turkey
01:50<pjpe>with mashed potatoes and gravy
01:51<Rubidium>planetmaker: seen a Dutch one?
01:51<@planetmaker>actually, I think so, yes
01:51<pjpe>nothing beats a good ol turkey
01:53<__ln__>the germans have a significant minority from turkey
01:54<pjpe>a big ol slab of schwarma meat covered in gravy just isn't the same
01:55<@planetmaker>pjpe, so... have you yourself already prepared a turkey then? ;-)
01:55<pjpe>never needed to
01:55<pjpe>that's what my mom is for
01:55<@planetmaker>lol
01:58<Rubidium>planetmaker: one plus of the British breakfast is that it isn't all sugary, like the American breakfasts I got
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01:59<@planetmaker>admittedly, North America and Africa are the only continents I haven't conciously visited yet
01:59<pjpe>sugary american breakfast?
01:59<Rubidium>and I really don't like that in the morning
01:59<pjpe>usually eggs and bacon
01:59<pjpe>quite salty
01:59<Rubidium>pjpe: try donut (with sugar), muffins, sugary cereals, sugary break with jam
01:59<Rubidium>s/break/bread/
01:59<pjpe>donuts for breakfast?
02:00<pjpe>what kind of sorcery is that
02:00<pjpe>and cereals are best sugary
02:00<Rubidium>they even did something to the milk that made it taste bad (vanilla sugar maybe?)
02:00<pjpe>what
02:00<pjpe>vanilla sugar milk bad?
02:00<pjpe>you're insane
02:00<Rubidium>I would've been happy with a bagel with cream cheese, but no... they didn't have it
02:01<pjpe>huh that's strange
02:02<pjpe>my breakfast is usually just dry mueslix
02:02<Rubidium>then I'm also insane for not liking the Burger King special... salt with blackened fries and frozen fries, and leather on a soggy bun
02:02<pjpe>or dry vector cereal
02:02<pjpe>and then nutella
02:02<pjpe>right out of the jar
02:02<pjpe>oh yeah if you aren't used to fast food in america i wouldn't bother
02:03<pjpe>it only tastes decent to good to those of us who have lived here for a while
02:03<Rubidium>pjpe: well... this instance of Burger King "meal" was given to me in the UK
02:03<pjpe>well blame the uk
02:04<Rubidium>nah, blame the Burger King
02:04<Rubidium>I just refuse to be theree
02:04<pjpe>that too
02:04<Rubidium>oh... too early... too much typos
02:04<pjpe>i like their fries
02:04<pjpe>lots of potato and sugar
02:05<@planetmaker>Burger King is also commonly called Würger King here :-P
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02:06<@planetmaker>würgen = chock, gag, strangle ;-)
02:06<@planetmaker>*choke
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02:44<dihedral>morning :-)
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02:57<Rubidium>moin dihedral
02:59<pjpe>heat maps for tracks: anyone ever done it?
02:59<Rubidium>yes
02:59<pjpe>oh shit really
02:59<pjpe>'track statistics'
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03:01<pjpe>grows grass on unused tracks
03:11<pjpe>how much memory do you figure an array of null pointers takes?
03:11<pjpe>well i suppose it doesn't matter what pointer is in the array
03:11<pjpe>which makes this less complicated
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03:13<Rubidium>32MiB?
03:14<pjpe>4 bytes for 32 bit memory?
03:15<pjpe>hmm yeah that makes this idea not so great
03:15<xahodo>Hello
03:15<pjpe>what's the size of a tile?
03:15<Rubidium>9 bytes
03:16<pjpe>so for a 2048 by 2048 map
03:16<Rubidium>no, I assumed 64 bits
03:16<pjpe>largest map size takes 32 megabytes in memory?
03:16<pjpe>for the tile data?
03:16<Rubidium>more like 36
03:17<pjpe>yeah
03:17<pjpe>my idea was if you have data you only fill in for some tiles
03:17<pjpe>to save processing you only store the ones that need data filled in
03:17<pjpe>have an array for each tile with a null pointer if the data wasn't filled in
03:17<pjpe>otherwise a pointer to the extra tile data object
03:18<pjpe>so if you collected how much a track was used
03:18<pjpe>you'd only have to store the array of pointer to the objects that hold the usage data
03:18<pjpe>but the array of pointers would pretty much double the memory usage for the map
03:19<xahodo>Would it be profitable for memory performance to allocate _m and _me with one malloc?
03:19<pjpe>and unless you do some trickery to keep every extra info object referenced by the one pointer array, you'd need more than one array of pointers
03:20<Rubidium>xahodo: no
03:21<xahodo>ok, I'll drop that idea.
03:21<pjpe>are the devs concerned with a patch using one of the free bytes in the tile data?
03:22<pjpe>or is a nonissue for a while if a patch uses a free byte in a tile
03:24<xahodo>Maybe it's an option to store in a water tile how many of the next tiles iterated over are also water (or canal or river) tiles, this could spare unneeded tile visits.
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03:42<pjpe>i think mine was a bad question to ask
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03:44<Rubidium>or just the wrong time to ask it
03:45<Rubidium>but there are plenty of patch(pack|e)s that use some of the free memory
03:46<pjpe>nah i mean i was thinking in the context of the tile data eventually running out of space for new parts of it to use
03:46<Rubidium>xahodo: how would imagine it works? How do you think the iteration works?
03:46<pjpe>but then you could just expand it couldn't you
03:46<Rubidium>yes, that's always possible
03:50<xahodo>As far as I know the iterator blindly tests each and every tile in steps of 16, each round starting at a different offset.
03:51<xahodo>However, it's been a while since I last looked at the relevant code. Been trying to wrap my head around openttd's code for quite a while now.
03:53<Rubidium>that would mean that each tile clearing needs to look at the 8 neighbouring tiles whether they are water and go "back" in the tile loop to change whether the tile can be skipped or not
03:53<xahodo>If the iterator encounters X water tiles in a row (lest just say 8) it could record that in the first water tile so it could simply skip over all those tiles the next time, unless something changes (terraforming).
03:54<Rubidium>even then, last time I checked water wasn't the most expensive; clear tiles were
03:55<Rubidium>to check whether to build 'fences' around farms
03:55<Rubidium>(tree tiles are affected in the same manner)
03:56<Rubidium>though, try it and see how much (or little) it affects performance
03:59<pjpe>fence building really that expensive?
03:59<pjpe>should be a setting to disable that
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05:23<krinn>hi all
05:25<krinn>never knew about the blind zone at north of town, anyone could confirm it's a game mechanics weakness ? (see http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4702 )
05:26<krinn>i mean, never even knew it while playing the game, and i don't remember been victim of that while playing the game
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05:28<krinn>how the game handle that ? (i mean for the town rating)
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05:41<Yexo>krinn: there is no blind zone
05:41<krinn>ah, so it's legit to put a station toptile outside town influence while its lower tiles still are within?
05:43<krinn>it's just i'm not sure of frosch answer (i'm not even sure he get what i was speaking of, i'm not really clear sometimes)
05:44<Yexo>why would that not be legit?
05:44<Yexo>I wouldn't advise it, if you serve a station reasonable well it's good for it to be within the town influence
05:44<krinn>well, if the town rating is not affect, the station is doing nothing for the town, but the town might still see the station and hate a "non working" station
05:45<krinn>i could explain the conditions better if you wish yexo
05:46<Yexo>if the town rating is not affected the station is indeed doing nothing, but that includes both the positive and negative effects
05:47<krinn>that kind of station put there, for town my ai name won't even appears in town properties if i look at them so ?
05:48<Yexo>if your company name is not visible in the town properties you haven't effected the town rating at all yet
05:49<krinn>industries are affect too no? and this time it's bad to have no effect vs one that have effect
05:49<Yexo>what do you mean with effect on industries?
05:49<Yexo>just building a station has no effect on industries at all
05:50<krinn>for the cargo distrib ?
05:50<Yexo>industries don't rate your company like towns do
05:50<Yexo>the only thing important for cargo distribution is your station rating
05:50<Yexo>see http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics for how that works
05:51<krinn>i know, but if the station cannot be seen too ? (toptile outside industry influence)
05:51<Yexo>the tile with the station sign has absolutely no influence there
05:52<krinn>ah ok, the only "bad" effect to build north is so just "may hide yourself for a town" ?
05:52<Yexo>yes
05:52<Yexo>if you build tile by tile the exact same thing can happen if you build south
05:52<Yexo>start by building the southern-most tile, then build each tile connecting to the last more north
05:53<Yexo>station sign will keep over the southern-most tile
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>the only "problem" with only the north tile being checked on construction is, you can put airports closer to town in the north than in the south
05:53<Yexo>not sure that is still true
05:53<krinn>i have bypass that Eddi|zuHause that's why i was worry about that
05:53<Yexo>I think frosch fixed that quite some time ago
05:54<krinn>it's still in effect in 1.1.1 Yexo
05:54<Rubidium>isn't it "station flag", not "top tile"?
05:54<Yexo>Rubidium: yes, it is
05:54<krinn>it's always toptile on my tests (but i only build plain station, and not tile by tile)
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: on construction, there is no station sign yet
05:55<Rubidium>krinn: then build first the SE corner and then overbuild it with the rest you want to build
05:55<krinn>Rubidium, cannot be done on airport :)
05:55<Rubidium>build it against a bus stop
05:56<Rubidium>and then remove the bus stop
05:56<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause / krinn: for the airport noise level the tile of the airport closest to the city center is checked, not the tile with the station sign
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: it worked like this a few months ago
05:56<krinn>but i have just add a function to see if any part of incoming airport will be indeed inside town influence and it solve the problem find a good spot at north tiles
05:56<Yexo>and it has been that for I think at least a year, maybe two
05:57<krinn>human can easy fall on the gap, ai cannot but ai then just "lost" north tiles
05:59<krinn>thank you Yexo for a clear answer
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: that's not my observation
06:01<Yexo>that's what the code is doing, so if it doesn't work like that there is a bug
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06:20<krinn>ah tere's a bad effect of that mechanic, flatten tiles within town influence lower town rating, to finally build a station that won't get rating increase because outside town influence, but that's not a huge issue
06:21<Rubidium>well, you'll always be having that issue
06:21<krinn>you may end with a big station working wonder for a town while the town hate you :)
06:21<Rubidium>even if you center the station flag
06:21<krinn>yes, i just never notice it while been human
06:21<Noldo>the station title is on the first station tile build right?
06:22<krinn>yep, toptile Noldo
06:22<Noldo>so there is always the workaroung to build bus or lorry station first
06:22<Noldo>*d
06:22<krinn>that's a "dirty" hack, and you are suppose to have join stations working
06:23<Yexo>krinn: actually terraforming tiles doesn't influence the town rating at all, as long as the terraforming doesn't include the removal of any trees
06:23<Noldo>:-D
06:24<krinn>Yexo, yes, but lower/higher tiles clean trees, but the fact is that removing tree while building your station will lower your rating, and your station will never let it comes up because still outside
06:24<krinn>but that's a tiny bad effect
06:26<krinn>it just imply that an ai shouldn't build north if not handling town rating, else doing that the ai will remove any others construction within that town
06:26<krinn>but if one build north i suppose he is aware he need to handle town rating so
06:27<Yexo>you don't need to
06:27<Yexo>"Each month players' ratings automatically change: Rating goes up by 5 if it is less than 200. "
06:27<Yexo>and to build a station you only need -200 rating
06:27<krinn>ah yes i forgot that one
06:27<krinn>higher delays only so
06:29<krinn>what you think Yexo AIStation.IsWithinTownInfluence need a change to check each station tiles instead of just its toptile ?
06:30<Yexo>why would it need such a change?
06:30<Yexo>do you propose to change the game behavior or just the API function?
06:30<krinn>the api function
06:30<krinn>if toptile is outside, but some station tiles are within: the function return false
06:30<Yexo>as it should, since the town rating is not affected by that station
06:31<krinn>an api dev might use it to check its station is within town influence and remove when false
06:32<Yexo>if you want to know it for each tile use AITileList_StationType and valuate with AITown.IsWithinTownInfluence
06:32<krinn>i find that bug as i use the function to check an airport is within the town i wish build an airport to reuse it, and while the function was saying false my ai then build another airport in the town
06:32<Yexo>rather AITile.IsWithinTownInfluence
06:32<Yexo>that is the wrong function for that
06:32<krinn>that's what i have done, bypass the AIStation function using mine that check each tiles
06:33<Yexo>you could create a AIStationLis tand filter by AIStation.GetNearestTown
06:33<krinn>nope, weakness in GetNearestTown too
06:34<Yexo>I know, but there is no general way that always works
06:34<krinn>might answer what town is the closest, not what town your airport was build for (when two town are close each other)
06:34<Yexo>the only failsafe thing is keeping a list in memory yourself
06:34<krinn>i think too
06:36<krinn>but as the function is now, the AIStation.IsWithinTownInfluence = 0 usage as it may answer only to the station toptile
06:36<krinn>while it's legit for a AIStation function to answer for the whole station query
06:36<krinn>imo
06:37<Yexo>the function has a very clear usage: it tells you if that stations influences how the town thinks about you
06:38<Yexo>that's the only thing the function is trying to answer, you can't use it for anything else as you have found out
06:39<krinn>i see now :)
06:40<krinn>at least change in the api doc will help like frosch done it, clearer
06:41<krinn>+ * If a new station would be build on this tile, the servicing quality of it would
06:41<krinn>+ * influence the rating of the town.
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07:31<krinn>is there a way to detect the big pole that isn't removable ?
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07:32<krinn>not using AITile.IsBuildable as this only answer if something is in the way, not if that something could be remove or not
07:36<Yexo>you can try to remove it in test-mode
07:36<Yexo>afaik that's the only reliable way
07:36<krinn>ah yes thank you
07:47<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22809 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4731]: towns expanding from the "wrong" side of a tunnel or bridge
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07:55<Eddi|zuHause>hm... two things: the "scanning for newgrfs" vastly underestimates the number of grfs, and then spends most of the time at 100%, and then it tells me "missing newgrfs have been deactivated" without telling me what they were...
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>hm...
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [grf] NewGRF 4D4C0100 (newgrf/dutchcatw.grf) not found; checksum 1E2A243600434194FB100E72E507D5EF
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>dbg: [grf] NewGRF 4D656F6E (newgrf/treesw.grf) not found; checksum 6A1FD7EADF9CBB9A0704FAA644B77AE6
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>those are my static grfs
07:57<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: you disabled saving the config file?
07:57<Rubidium>as it puts a new estimate in there, based on the amount you had the previous time
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: not that i know of
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: this was the first time starting
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>anyway...
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>why does it disable my static grfs?
07:58<Rubidium>no clue
07:59<Rubidium>anyhow, is the estimate better the second time you start?
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>my theory: it's trying to load them before scanning was completed
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08:01<Rubidium>it works fine for me
08:01<Rubidium>or do you have NewGRFs in the intro game?
08:01<Rubidium>i.e. a custom intro game with NewGRFs
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>no, i have the 1.1.x intro game from the contest
08:03<Rubidium>hmm
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: the estimate looks better the second time
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>but it still tells me about deactivating the grfs
08:04<Rubidium>yeah, that's from the intro game being loaded without any NewGRFs available
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it's totally annoying
08:04<Rubidium>not sure whether to disable NewGRFs in the intro game alltogether
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it should do a special run for the static grfs before trying to load the intro game
08:10<Rubidium>http://rbijker.net/openttd/ignore_newgrfs_in_intro.diff ought to help with the error
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08:11<krinn>Yexo, tried the testmode, but cannot use it as valuator, we have a way to bypass that ?
08:11<Yexo>write your own valuator function in squirrel
08:11<Rubidium>use the squirrel valuator from the superlib?
08:11<Yexo>I've done so for admiralai and I believe zuu has included it in superlib
08:12<krinn>going to have a look at it
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08:19<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: rather treat static grfs in the run for the base grfs
08:22<Rubidium>that runs before the config file is read
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>hm... evil...
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>is there a reason for that?
08:24<Rubidium>for -h there's no need to load the config file, but it should list the base sets
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>not sure i buy this argument...
08:26<Rubidium>in any case, I'm somewhat considering using the grfid + md5checksum as identifier in the config file
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08:27<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: how does that help if you didn't scan the files yet to identify them?
08:27<Rubidium>not, but that would make scanning for the static newgrfs in the base set scan pointless
08:27<Eddi|zuHause>i think ini is kind of a suboptimal format for newgrf info
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>you have filename, grfid, md5sum, version, parameters
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>but for the presets, they should get the updated version automatically when you download updated grfs from bananas
08:30<Rubidium>more something like: there are newer versions of some of the NewGRFs. Should those newer versions be taken?
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08:31<Eddi|zuHause>i never had this problem before bananas, because i usually overwrite the files with the new version (making backups of old), so it gets taken automatically, since presets only take directory/filename into consideration
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>but in bananas, the version is part of the filename
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>so it won't get automatically updated
08:32<+michi_cc>Presets need to get palette information, otherwise mixing DOS/windows grfs without Action 14 is a hassle.
08:32<Eddi|zuHause>right, i forgot that
08:35<Rubidium>michi_cc: that's more a NewGRF related setting, not preset related
08:36<+michi_cc>Well, yes, but presets exacerbate it because you still need to open the NewGRF window to fix the palette. If you have it open anyway, it's less of a problem.
08:37<Rubidium>yes, but rather store it once than for each time you add it to a preset
08:40<+michi_cc>That would be even better of course.
08:41<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22810 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Growth a town on both ends of a tunnel/bridge if the town centre tile is a bridge ramp/tunnel portal.
08:42<+michi_cc>Bah, s/Growth/Grow/ :)
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08:49<@Belugas>hi hi
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08:54<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22811 /trunk/src/saveload/newgrf_sl.cpp: -Change: don't try to load static NewGRFs when loading the intro game for the first time
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09:46<alluke>lakie
09:46<alluke>whats done/left to do
09:48<Lakie>A fair bit?
09:51<alluke>?
09:52<alluke>im already playing with the early set and need moar! MOAR!
09:53<Rubidium>not "I want it all, and I want it now"?
09:53<alluke>exactly that :P
09:56<Lakie>Heh
09:56*Lakie wonders where DanMacK is, haven't seen him for a while
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10:43<krinn>later all
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11:57<Ackmey>Hey all
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12:10<Ackmey>What year do oil rigs start appearing?
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>1970-ish
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>but only in temperate climate
12:11<Ackmey>Thanks
12:12<Ackmey>Hey also, is there an easy way of replacing a small airport with a larger one without having to reroute all my planes individually?
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>i just catch all incoming planes and skip the order
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>there is currently no way to "close" an airport
12:14<Ackmey>That's a pain when you have a pile of planes
12:14<Ackmey>I got my small airport way too congested though
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12:34<alluke>lakie
12:34<alluke>are you able to tell how many % is done
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12:37<Lakie>Not really, to be honest, I was hoping to talk with DanMack to pass it over to another coder. My time seems to be more and more squeezed recently. :(
12:38<Lakie>Though I have made mention of this to him already, so its mostly discussing it with him now.
12:38<alluke>ha
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12:39<alluke>post into the thread
12:39<alluke>and find someone who wants to continue it
12:39<@planetmaker>what newgrf, Lakie?
12:40<Lakie>I was planning to wait on DanMacK's opinons before doing so
12:40<Lakie>Finnish Train St, planetmaker
12:40<@planetmaker>ah
12:40<Lakie>Should be fairly simple for someone to do, either in nfo or nml.
12:40<Lakie>Its just the time cost
12:41<alluke>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=21457
12:41<alluke>yes
12:41<@planetmaker>18:40 Lakie: Its just the time cost
12:41<@planetmaker>^^ yes, that's often the issue :-)
12:43<Lakie>I know, its a pain that its almost always the area which ishit the most, lol.
12:44<alluke>lakie
12:44<alluke>post to the thread ;)
12:44<alluke>noone will take over the job from here
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12:47<Lakie>In a little while, I'm currently got other tasks which need attending right now, sorry.
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12:54<alluke>right
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13:01<@Belugas>this suspense is intolerable! Will he escape, will he die or will he be caught?
13:01<@Belugas>don't tell me we won't know today!
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13:19<andythenorth>quack
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13:19<Rubidium>moin
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13:24<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22812 /trunk/src/ (55 files in 3 dirs): -Fix: incorrect currency code
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13:27<Lakie`>Happy, alluke? http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=21457&p=966258#p966258
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13:35<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22813 /trunk/src/ (currency.cpp lang/english.txt): -Fix [FS#4575]: make naming of currencies more consistent
13:38<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22814 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix (r22813): typo
13:39<alluke>oh yes i am
13:39<alluke>thanls
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22815 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 10 changes by habell
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: english_US - 8 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: italian - 10 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: polish - 8 changes by xaxa
13:48<appe>hm
13:48<appe>can i make train tracks with signals complete, or do i have to make the tracks - and then the signals?
13:49<SpComb>tracks and signas
13:49<SpComb>*signals
13:49<SpComb>but you can drag both
13:55<V453000>why would you make tracks with signals? :D
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14:32<Wolf01>hello
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14:34*Zuu thinks loundly about introducing some word to define an airport "blueprint". Eg. the equivalent of what an engine is to a vehicle for airports.
14:35<Zuu>Then AIAirport could be split into AIAirport (similar to AIVehicle) and AIAirportBlueprint (similac to AIEngine)
14:35<Zuu>First I though about using the name AIAirportType, but then we have the concept of views that would be inside that class as well.
14:35<@SmatZ>as an idea, I like it
14:35<Zuu>Though, it might not be that bad still. A type HAS views. Not the other way around.
14:36<@SmatZ>not sure what it would break & stuff
14:36<Zuu>NoAI have backward compatibility layers, and there has to be some significant changes to support NewGRF airports anyway, so now is a good moment to introduce a such split.
14:37*SmatZ thinks the same
14:40<Zuu>The AIAirportType class will get quite some functions so I think it will increase the clearness of the API if it is not also mixed with already built airports.
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16:09<LordAro>evnings
16:09<Wolf01>welcome back LordAro
16:09<LordAro>back?
16:09<Wolf01>forward?
16:12<LordAro>i need to convert a const char * to a const UChar * .... ummm... help?
16:13<Rubidium>why would you want to?
16:13<Zuu>is the cost char * ansi?
16:13<LordAro>i have no idea... :)
16:14<Zuu>or do you also have to figure out which ansi extension that is in effect and do unicode conversion? (assuming Uchar is a unicode char)
16:14<Rubidium>but OpenTTD uses no UChar in any of its internal 'APIs'
16:14<LordAro>Rubidium: it is something to do with ICU
16:15<Rubidium>but what are you trying to achieve that can't be currently done?
16:15<LordAro>GetStringWidth()
16:15<Rubidium>I don't see why showing a readme.txt requires custom ICU interfacing of
16:16<Rubidium>use GetStringBoundingBox
16:16<LordAro>thats (no doubt) a lot easier :) thanks
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16:19<LordAro>Rubidium: which file is it in?
16:19<Rubidium>gfx_func.h
16:19<LordAro>i can't find it on doxygen
16:20<LordAro>(but then, i'm useless at working out where things are on it :)
16:20<LordAro>)
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16:23<Zuu>LordAro: Ever tried grep?
16:23<LordAro>windoze...
16:23<LordAro>(atm))
16:23<Zuu>(or Ctrl+Alt+F in visual studio)
16:24<Zuu>and running windos is not an excuse for not using grep.
16:24<LordAro>and not being bothered to learn how to use visual c++ ;)
16:24*Zuu runs windows AND uses several unix tools
16:25<Zuu>Do you compile using msvc or g++?
16:25<LordAro>g++
16:25<Zuu>Doesn't msys come with grep?
16:26<LordAro>(mingw and unix, if thats what you mean)
16:26<LordAro>mingw not on this computer
16:26<LordAro>but, yes, it does
16:27<Zuu>Last time I checked their website, I saw that they have or will soon start to provide an istaller similar to cygwin where you can customize which packages you want to install and not.
16:27<+glx><Zuu> (or Ctrl+Alt+F in visual studio) <-- ctrl+shift-F for me
16:27<Zuu>glx: You are probably right, the key-combo is in my fingers, not my head. :-)
16:30<Wolf01>'night
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16:45<Yexo>Zuu: your work on AIAirport and friends is very nice, but I'm going to leave it alone for a while
16:45<Yexo>there are some open questions for newgrf airports that have to be answered first
16:46<Yexo>last idea is letting openttd figure out the holding pattern automatically
16:46<Yexo>would be great if possible, and that would make detecting which aircraft are in the holding pattern possible
16:55<Zuu>I read yesterday about the ideas regarding the holding pattern moving out of the FTA. So I will leave that for now and continue with my other ideas. (the holding thing is what I though was most advanced on beforehand)
16:58<Zuu>My plan: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/cLpGXFWbuwTMKc7jszvC/
16:58<LordAro>Paste #cLpGXFWbuwTMKc7jszvC? thats not an integer... :)
16:59<+glx>it is, just in a different base
17:00<Zuu>First my idea was to provide AIAirport.GetHoldingCount or something like that, but after some though I figured out that it would be to benefitical compared to what APIs that are for other transport systems. Thus only having AIVehicle.IsInHolding should be more equal among the transport modes.
17:01<Zuu>LordAro: it doesn't even claim that it is a number.
17:02<Zuu>Oh, well yes on the page maybe. but not in the url..
17:02<Yexo>LordAro: if you tick the box "private" while posting you'll get such an url
17:02<Yexo>still publicly visible, but nobody can guess the url anymore
17:03<Yexo>Zuu: CanPlaneTypeLand conceptually belongs in AIAirportType, but depending on newgrf implementation it might not be possible
17:03<Yexo>for a newgrf the most logical implementation would be to make that function a callback of an existing airport
17:03<Yexo>which means that an AI could only call it when an airport of that type exists
17:04<Yexo>oh, and only with an actual existing vehicle, not with a vehicle type
17:05<Yexo>I'm still wondering how useful GetNumHelipads and GetNumTerminals are
17:05<Yexo>what about airports where the helipads and terminals overlap? both functions could return 4, while there would be only 4 spots in total, not 8
17:06<Yexo>also for the default airports the city and metropolitan airports would return the same, so it's not an adequate measure of performance
17:07-!-Zuu_ [~Zuu@h84n7-ld-c-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #openttd
17:07<Zuu_>There is a flag for short strip, if helicopters can land and a third flag for if airplanes can land.
17:07-!-DOUK [~KEM@88.230.222.232] has joined #openttd
17:08<Zuu_>My idea was to combine the last two and provide CanPlaneTypeLand instead to make it more general and possible forward compatible for more plane types.
17:09<Yexo><Zuu_> There is a flag for short strip, if helicopters can land and a third flag for if airplanes can land. <- those flags are only for the default airports
17:09<Yexo>newgrf airports will get much more freedom
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17:11<Zuu__>Yexo: How should an AI know which airport to build if it can't know if it can be used for eg. helicopters or planes?
17:11<LordAro>Zuu/Zuu_/_Zuu_/Zuu__/Leif__ is having connection issues? :)
17:11<Yexo>I'm not sure about that, that's one of the things I'm wondering about now ;)
17:11<Zuu__>LordAro: Yes, and if you know my hostmask you'll see I'm not at home.
17:12<LordAro>mibbit doesn't show them...
17:12<LordAro>and my kvirc is out of action
17:12<Zuu__>Also, how will a player know which airport to build as well if it can't know what it supports?
17:13<Yexo>player can read readme.txt / do a testgame
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17:13<Yexo>main problem is that we have more "types" than just plane / helicopter
17:14<Yexo>there will be aircraft capable to land only on sea, or sea and land, there might be zeppelins that require a special zeppelin pylon
17:15<Zuu__>Unless NewGRF will be allowed to dynamically reject aircrafts, I wouldn't it be possible for them to define an accept/reject table?
17:15<Yexo>yes, I think that's the correct solution
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>looks like kaffeine nowadays has a feature to buffer stuff in memory if the recording HD is full
17:16<Zuu__>Or if you want to, exclude the table and only let OpenTTD read the FTA blocks for the availability of certain infrastructure elements. Though the later would probably allow NewGRFs to place traps.
17:16<Yexo>maybe still via a callback, but than a callback that is called on airport type and with only static vehicle type data, so openttd would be able to cache the result
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>at least it's now using like 3GB of memory and everything is really sluggish
17:17<Yexo>detecting infrastructure via FTA is not possible
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17:18<Zuu__>A callback would be fine as long as it can be called without having a such airport built. Using only static engine data would also help a lot as you need an airport before you can build an aircraft.
17:20-!-Zuu_ [~Zuu@h84n7-ld-c-a31.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #openttd
17:21<Zuu_>Hmm, my cellphone used as modem is more reliable than this connection...
17:22<Yexo>meh, where is zephyris when you need him
17:23<frosch123>Yexo: whether an airport can handle an aircraft must be known without an actual vehicle
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17:23<frosch123>as you certainly also want to hide those aircraft from the purchase list :)
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17:24<Zuu_>That's also a good point :-)
17:24<Yexo>frosch123: yes, at some point the spec had two different callbacks: one for being able to land and one for buying at the airport
17:24<Zuu_>and all types were able to take off?
17:25<Yexo>basically yes
17:25<Yexo>it was assumed that if a type is not able to take off you can't buy it at the airport and neither would it be able to land
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17:25<Zuu_>althrough if you can't buy them, it's hard to make them take off ;-)
17:25<Zuu_>can't buy them nor land them*
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17:26<Eddi|zuHause>changing grfs midgame :p
17:26<Yexo>back to the problem at hand: how to generate a holding pattern given one or more entry points (=position + direction)
17:26<Yexo>Getting the entry points might already require calling a newgrf callback, since the entry points could depend on the airport type
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17:27<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: from the entry point a 180° curve (left), straight on, 180° curve (left), straigh on (back at entry point)
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: each section about same length (time-wise)
17:27<frosch123>maybe small/large aircraft and heliport should work like railtypes
17:27<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: and now with 3 random entry points?
17:27<frosch123>i.e. stuff like compatible landing places and such
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: one holding pattern for each entry point
17:27<Yexo>consider that 2 of those entry points might be next to each other in the same direction?
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: add pseudo-random height, so they won't collide
17:28<Yexo>frosch123: maybe, but that doesn't help
17:28<Zuu_>Divide the airspace around an airport in four sectors. With dividers going north-west, north-east, south-east and south-west. In each sector restrict the allowed direction so that one can't set very insane direction/location combinations?
17:28<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the discussion is more about finding a bezier curve given the current aircraft position and direction, and the landing position/direction
17:28<Zuu_>Althrgouh that will probably limit holding patterns to be only clockwise/counter-clockwise depending on how the spec is decided.
17:29<Yexo>eddi: colliding is not the issue, how to generate a path so both entry points are visited about equally
17:29<frosch123>but it must be integerish and the radius shall limit the speed
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>ah, from random direction into holding pattern
17:29<Yexo>no, we want to completely automatically generate the actual holding pattern
17:29<Yexo>given one (or more) entry points
17:29<Yexo>for one entry points it's trivial, as you showed in your first answer
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17:30<frosch123>an entry point is a runway/helipad here, not something in the holding pattern
17:31<Zuu_>Thanks for that clarification. I though you ment the entry point in the holding pattern.
17:31<Yexo>sorry for that confusion
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>so you make one holding pattern for each entry point, and distribute the incoming aircraft into these holding patterns, depending on how many planes are already holding there, with some bias on which direction the plane comes from (so it more likely takes the nearest one)
17:32<@SmatZ>Fuco: you are in .cz now?
17:32<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: or one holding pattern for the whole airport and every aircraft picks the nearest available entry
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>"entry point" imho is the position where landing starts. if a plane comes there and the runway is not free, it enters the holding pattern which lasts X ticks until it gets back
17:32<Zuu_>Eddi|zuHause: How far away do you make the desicion on where to go?
17:32<Fuco>SmatZ: not right now, no
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think that's a bad idea
17:32<Yexo>frosch123: compatible landing places already goes wrong with water aircraft: I can easily give 3 types that are partly incompatible: A. land only B. water only C. land and water
17:32<Fuco>my server is in cz tho
17:32<@SmatZ>Fuco: ok, your hostmask is ... ok :)
17:32<+michi_cc>And taking the properties of the entry point and aircraft into account, i.e. assign large aircraft only to long runway etc
17:33<Fuco>I'm at home right now (slovakia ;))
17:33<+michi_cc>The pattern itself can be the standard holding pattern: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holding_(aviation)
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: imho you should decide the entry point when in X distance from the airport, and never change the decision again
17:33<Yexo>if we divide the aircraft over the entry points before they enter the holding pattern that is a good solution michi_cc
17:34<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22816 /trunk/src/ (roadveh_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Feature(ette): [NewGRF] Also age wagons and articulated parts.
17:34<frosch123>hmm, true, i think rv do the same
17:35-!-Vikthor [~Vikthor@78-80-200-5.tmcz.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:36<Yexo>so: fly towards center of airport, when at distance X get all possible entry points (airport callback?), pick entry point with lowest amount of aircraft in holding, join holding pattern for that entry point
17:36<+michi_cc>Compatible landing place can work, assign a type to the landing place (e.g. 'LARG', 'SMLL', 'WATR' or whatever) and each aircraft gets a list of allowed landing classes. If a suitable default set of classes is defined, there should be not too much other classes except for special vehicle types.
17:36<frosch123>Yexo: yeah
17:37<+michi_cc>Or split by class (water, land, heli) and length and each aircraft gets compatible classes and a minimum length
17:38<Yexo>as long as it's the vehicle defining the compatible landing places it can work
17:38<+michi_cc>The wiki page even has diagrams for entry into the holding pattern from each direction.
17:42<frosch123>night
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17:54<Zuu_>Yexo: Wouldn't it be the engine that decides it? Or is the vehicle <-> engine separation not used in the NewGRF domain?
17:55<Yexo>you're right, the engine
17:55<Yexo>I just meant engine instead of the airport or the classes themself, like it works for railtypes
17:55<Yexo>railtypes define compatibility with eachother, not engines with multiple railtypes
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>that concept has certain limitations
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>like the TOE set that wanted dual-voltage engines
17:57<Yexo>it has, indeed
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17:59<LordAro>night
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18:37<Ammler>I have 2 completely different startups, if I start with or without blitter
18:40<Ammler>./openttd -c openttd.cfg -D -g save/restart.sav > http://ps.openttdcoop.org/publicserver/yeiR9zaedij4U/dedicated-without-blitter.log
18:40<Ammler>./openttd -c openttd.cfg -D -g save/restart.sav -b8bpp-optimized > http://ps.openttdcoop.org/publicserver/yeiR9zaedij4U/dedicated-blitter.log
18:40<Ammler>something seems seriously broken
18:41<Ammler>our last working server was r27000
18:41<Ammler>r22700*
18:42<Ammler>this error was already yesterday nightly and today (test with r22815)
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18:49<Ammler>oh, and just you know, but should be obvious it is a patched server :-)
19:03<hadrianius>are there squirrel experts online/
19:04<hadrianius>ah, I just fixed it, nvm
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19:21<+glx>Ammler: I'd blame the patch
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22:04<xavexgoem>Is STD_CONDBOOL from the old settings.h essentially STD_BOOL in settings.ini, or am I confused?
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 23 00:00:41 2011