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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-23

---Logopened Tue Aug 23 00:00:41 2011
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01:03<andythenorth>moin
01:03*andythenorth wonders what moin actually means
01:04<pjpe>low german greeting
01:04<pjpe>meaning
01:04<pjpe>who cares
01:04<pjpe>something nice
01:18<andythenorth>planetmaker: wrt FIRS cargos - discussion continues
01:19<andythenorth>I haven't answered in the thread becauseI'm bored of having to justify choices :P
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01:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I just try to show why IMHO his view is quite flawed from a gameplay POV
01:25<@planetmaker>But... I just decided to stop "discussing" it. I'm bored of it
01:25<@planetmaker>too ;-)
01:26<@planetmaker>good morning also
01:26<andythenorth>hola
01:26<andythenorth>FMSP is the same stuff as farmers' coops sell: http://www.ourcoop.com/productcatalog/Main/Default.aspx
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01:27<@planetmaker>yes
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01:27<@planetmaker>ensp is a superset of what hardware stores sell.
01:28<@planetmaker>mnsp a superset of what stationaries sell. Somewhat
01:28<andythenorth>MNSP is actually the only controversial one
01:28<@planetmaker>that's the only one which could be discussed first, yes
01:28<@planetmaker>though I'd not open that can now :-)
01:28<andythenorth>strictly MNSP means 'anything that goes from secondary to another secondary, but doesn't fit in the other categories'
01:28<andythenorth>:P
01:28<@planetmaker>Rather - if at all - adjust it silently ;-)
01:29<andythenorth>MNSP also means 'these inputs are not the major part of the finished product'
01:31<andythenorth>ENSP is the kind of stuff supplied by these guys: http://www.keychainsupplies.com/products.html
01:32<@planetmaker>yes. mnsp is less "strong" than the primary supplies
01:32<@planetmaker>it just helps production output slightly
01:33<@planetmaker>but from a gameplay pov I still like it being called supplies :-)
01:33<andythenorth>hysterical raisins :P
01:33<@planetmaker>despite the hassle to translate it :-)
01:33<andythenorth>it's neither 100% components nor 100% packaging
01:34<andythenorth>ENSP could more strictly be Mining Supplies, but that's not great for oil rigs and oil wells
01:34<@planetmaker>yup
01:34<andythenorth>Mineral Extractive Industry Supplies is a bit wordy
01:34<@planetmaker>"oil mining" ;-)
01:35<andythenorth>Extraction Supplies <- might also apply to dentists :P
01:35<andythenorth>if the subtype was stored on the cargo, not the vehicle, then I might rethink my refusal of cargo subtypes
01:35<andythenorth>but meh
01:37<Rubidium>andythenorth: it's said to come from mooien (Dag/Abend/Moren), so it'd be equivalent to "good"
01:39<Rubidium>although currently "mooie dag" (in Dutch) can be translated as "beatiful day"
01:39<andythenorth>in english we just nod :P
01:39<andythenorth>in a stoic fashion
01:39<andythenorth>not so good on irc
01:41<andythenorth>planetmaker: he is right though
01:41<andythenorth>about it being inconsistent
01:42<@planetmaker>what is inconsistent about supplies?
01:43<@planetmaker>supplies are a game _concept_ and not just another cargo
01:43<@planetmaker>thus they deserve to be somewhat special
01:43<andythenorth>he's right but wrong
01:43<andythenorth>http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=foolish+consistency+is+the+hobgoblin+of+little+minds&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
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01:45<@planetmaker>interesting quote. Seems to have more background than I can grasp now ;-)
01:46<andythenorth>I am reading the original essay to see what his point was
01:46<andythenorth>like most quotes, it's repeated to support whatever the person using it means
01:46<andythenorth>perhaps not what the original write meant :P
01:49<andythenorth>"With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall." :P
01:51<@planetmaker>:-D
01:51<@planetmaker>sounds good enough
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02:43<dihedral>good morning
02:44<Rubidium>quak dihedral
02:44<dihedral>:-)
02:46<Eddi|zuHause>mornings are never good
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04:25<dihedral>Eddi|zuHause> mornings are never good <- not even the morning after? :-D
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05:45<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: nope. only the time before that :p
06:07<@Terkhen>hello
06:26-!-lyns [~d91a0664@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
06:26<lyns>hello! where i can get a web server status for ottd?
06:27<@planetmaker>servers.openttd.org
06:27<@planetmaker>though... webserver?
06:27<@planetmaker>what web server status?
06:27<lyns>no, i need setup Server Status for my servers on my site
06:28<@planetmaker>look at ottdlib
06:28<@planetmaker>and bother dihedral with its setup :-P
06:28<lyns>I want to do here as http://openttdcoop.org/?page=servers
06:29<@planetmaker>yes. Look at how to use openttdlib
06:29<@planetmaker>that's what we use there
06:29<lyns>щл
06:29<lyns>ok
06:30<lyns>i'm found it... thanks!
06:30<@planetmaker>no problem
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07:02<Ammler>or here: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/date/2011-08-23
07:29<dihedral>hehe
07:29<dihedral>was not there :-D
07:29<dihedral>and he's gone :-P
07:29<dihedral>or she
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07:32<lyns__>How i can set motd for clients: say_client? where i can get variable of client_id? i see a scripts in scripts folder, but i can't get client_id var
07:33<Yexo>I don't think you can do that via scripts
07:35<@peter1138>just gotta spam everyone
07:35<Yexo>you can do it via on_server_connect.scr but only by using "say", which means everyone will see it
07:36<lyns__>i see it here: 78.46.38.115:3981
07:37<dihedral>that does not work - you need a bot to do that for you ;-)
07:37<dihedral>unless you want to spam all players
07:38<dihedral>some people have patched openttd to do that job - others use a command line wrapper - yet others again use a bot
07:38<dihedral>... i think some use a bot :-D
07:38<dihedral>talking of which :-(
07:38*dihedral cries
07:38<lyns__>hm
07:38<lyns__>ok, i try to search
07:38<lyns__>thanks
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07:46<@orudge>bouncy bouncy
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07:52<dihedral>yep - that must have hurt :-P
08:05<@peter1138>i dunno, people using random bouncers...
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08:06<dihedral>i have a bouncher too, but that does not disconnect so often :-P
08:14<andythenorth>hmm
08:14<andythenorth>I should draw tile for the last part of a river
08:14<andythenorth>(e.g. the source)
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09:14<@Belugas>hi
09:18<@peter1138>hi
09:18<__ln__>hi
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09:25<andythenorth>hola
09:25<andythenorth>peter1138: vehicles-in-river-ferries ?
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09:36<@Belugas>flooop flooop flooop
09:37<@Belugas>mississipi river racing 1801
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09:47<dihedral>http://pub.dihedral.de/facebook/dashy.png
09:47<dihedral>www.gema.de has been down for 2 days now :-D
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10:17<@peter1138>andythenorth, you've written it? cool :D
10:17<andythenorth>yup
10:17<andythenorth>but I lost it :)
10:17<andythenorth>or maybe it was all a dream
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10:18<hadrianius>If I may ask a question, is there a way to differentiate between trams and road vehicles for the AI?
10:20<Rubidium>isn't there a supported roadtypes API?
10:20<@Yexo>yes, engines build for ROADTYPE_ROAD vs ROADTYPE_TRAM
10:21<hadrianius>if I do this however, it also selects all the trams?
10:21<hadrianius>local pos_buses = AIEngineList(AIVehicle.VT_ROAD);
10:21<@Yexo>yes, you have to filter that list if you don't want the trams
10:21<@Yexo>pos_buses.Valuate(AIEngine.GetRoadType);
10:21<@Yexo>pos_buses.KeepValue(AIRoad.ROADTYPE_ROAD);
10:22<hadrianius>Thank you
10:22<@Yexo>than you have a list of vehicles only able to run on normal road
10:22<hadrianius>It worked like a charm ;)
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13:05<hadrianius>rectangle.Valuate(AIStation.HasStationType,AIStation.STATION_BUS_STOP);
13:05<hadrianius> rectangle.KeepValue(1); Could anyone tell me how to fix this so that I can Valuate all tiles for having a Bus Stop?
13:07<@Yexo>the rectangle is a tile loop?
13:07<hadrianius>as right now nothing has a bus stop apparently
13:07<hadrianius>it's a Tile List
13:07<@Yexo>ehm, tile list?
13:07<@Yexo>ok
13:08<@Yexo>the first argument to AIStation.HasStationType is a StationID, and what your code you're giving it a TileIndex, which obviously doesn't work
13:08<@Yexo>you could use AIRoad.IsRoadStationTile
13:08<hadrianius>ok, thank you, missed that
13:09<@Yexo>that filters for both normal and drive through stations, so use IsDriveThroughRoadStationTile if you want one but not the other
13:10<hadrianius>Works like a charm now ^^
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13:20<Paragulis>Hello, can somebody help me with autopilot?
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13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22817 /trunk/src/lang/ (12 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: belarusian - 11 changes by KorneySan
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: catalan - 16 changes by arnau
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: czech - 5 changes by SmatZ
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: finnish - 17 changes by jpx_
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
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13:50<LordAro>evenings
13:57<SmatZ>hellos
13:57<Zuu>Hello LordAro
14:02<LordAro>hi SmatZ and Zuu
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14:21<LordAro>hai Alberth
14:21<@Alberth>hi LordAro
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14:22<Wolf01>evening
14:22-!-LordAro [569a507c@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
14:22<@Alberth>evenink Wolf01
14:22<LordAro>odd, internet just cut out..
14:22<@Alberth>LordAro: (20:23:56) Alberth: hi LordAro <-- in case you missed it :)
14:22<andythenorth>holas
14:22<Wolf01>and is evenhot too
14:22<@Alberth>hi andy
14:22<LordAro>Alberth: i did :)
14:23*Alberth ponders about oddhot
14:24<LordAro>http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3660 - hows about it?
14:27<@Alberth>yexo looks like the guy to talk to
14:27<LordAro>well, you just called him :)
14:27*Alberth knows
14:28<@Yexo>why moving bit 5 to a bool setting instead of using bit 10 for the new setting?
14:29<@Yexo>seems like pointless moving of code
14:32<Wolf01>woot, newgrf scanning, it's a lot I don't update the game :P
14:35<Zuu>Is it intended that the NewGRF window is hidden while scanning newgrf if you press the button to rescan newgrfs from the NewGRF window?
14:40<@Yexo>LordAro: patch looks decent enough
14:40<@Yexo>but I haven't tested it (and am not about to right now)
14:41<__ln__>http://edition.cnn.com/2011/US/08/23/virginia.quake/index.html
14:43<SpComb>old
14:44<frosch123>Zuu: all windows are hidden when a progress window is opened
14:45<Zuu>okay, it makes some sense as the content of the NewGRF window potentially could be invalid until the refreshment of available NewGRFs is done.
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15:09<Wolf01>is it there any noticeable change since the new station gui?
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15:17<Ammler>frosch123: maybe that new scanning gui does break scanning on dedicated server with enabled blitter
15:18<frosch123>if trunk is broken, you should make a bug report. but why should dedicated servers show a progress dialog?
15:19<Ammler>frosch123: well, you need to patch trunk to enable blitter on dedicated server
15:19<Ammler>basically remove the if clause on source.lst
15:20<@peter1138>you need to patch trunk to make it crash?
15:20<Ammler>peter1138: awesome, isn't?
15:20<Ammler>but that makes it kinda hard to make a valid bug report
15:21<Ammler>peter1138: I guess you were that funny guy, who added that useless if clause to the source ;-)
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15:24<Ammler>just tell me how I should create the bugreport so it does not get rejected
15:27<Ammler>frosch123: dedicated server does not need to show that bar, that would be fully ok
15:27<Ammler>the question is why does scanning depend on the blitter?
15:27<@peter1138>so how do you make it crash anyway?
15:28<Ammler>it doesn't crash
15:28<Ammler>it just does not scan the grfs
15:28<@peter1138>oh
15:28<Ammler>so it can't load the save
15:28<@peter1138>but only with blitters enabled?
15:28<frosch123>Ammler: maybe hack ScanNewGRFFiles as well
15:28<Ammler>peter1138: yes
15:28<Ammler>on dedicated server
15:29<Ammler>@logs
15:29<@DorpsGek>Ammler: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
15:29<Ammler>http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/date/2011-08-23 <-- compare those 2 logs I pasted
15:29<Ammler>I also wrote the start command there
15:30<+glx>and you tested a clean build too ?
15:31<Ammler>glx: you _need_ to patch openttd to have blitter on dedicated server
15:31<Ammler>else I could make a bug report :-P
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15:32<Ammler>http://ps.openttdcoop.org/publicserver/patches/keepBlitterForDedicated.p0.diff
15:33<@Alberth>so you want us to finish your patch?
15:33<Ammler>and you can't run a non dedicated build as dedicated server on a host without sdl
15:34<Ammler>Alberth: well, you broke it
15:34<@Alberth>I did?
15:35<Ammler>one of the openttd devs :-)
15:35<@Alberth>you want us to update your patch?
15:36<Ammler>well, if you ask for, I would not mind
15:36<@Alberth>yeah well, both are equally unlikely to happen, I think
15:37<Ammler>it was already silly to disable blitter for dedicated server, but it was easy revertable
15:38<Ammler>it somehow strange, how you actively code against MP all the time :-P
15:38*Alberth does not understand how that is silly
15:39<@Alberth>MP is the most demanding mode, so if something fails, it will fail there
15:40<Ammler>but it is hard to bugreport that, as it needs patching trunk
15:40<Ammler>so it will most likey just rejected because of it
15:40<@Alberth>I think you are right there :)
15:40<Ammler>so I can just silently remove that patch :-)
15:42<@Alberth>I am sure you can, as I completely fail to understand what your problem is a problem
15:42<@Alberth>s/what/how/
15:42<Ammler>just compare those to logfiles, it is quite obvious
15:42<Ammler>two*
15:43<Ammler>with -b it doesn't scan the newgrfs and so it can't load the grf
15:43<Ammler>the save*
15:44<@Alberth>but it needs a patched program to get this problem, right?
15:44<frosch123>Ammler: well, take a debugger and what where it goes wrong
15:44<Ammler>yes, since some commits
15:44<Ammler>Alberth: but it is not like the patch is new
15:45<Ammler>it was basically a revert of peter1138 bad mood some time ago
15:45<@Alberth>age of a patch has nothing to do with it, imho
15:45<+glx>and I fail to see how it could fail
15:47<Ammler>glx: I guess, scanning does now check for blitter and then decide if creates a gui or not, and it seems not able to work on dedicated server
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15:49<Ammler>if I am right, maybe it could be done with an other way, e.g. check for dedicated mode
15:50<Ammler>blitter should not implicit that a gui is available
15:50<@Yexo>Ammler: see http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/rev/50b29e4adc1e
15:50<@Yexo>if I read that commit right it checks for "no blitter" OR "dedicated server" but it runs the scan always
15:51<@Yexo>without gui or in dedicated server mode it just won't create a separate thread for it
15:55-!-noclue [~d4546db6@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
15:56<+glx>indeed the result should be the same
15:56<Ammler>Yexo: yes, but as I have blitter enabled, it tries to draw the progress bar which might fail on dedicated server?
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15:56<@Yexo>what does drawing the progress bar have to do with scanning newgrfs?
15:57<+glx>with or without blitter it doesn't start the thread for dedicated
15:57<+glx>that's what the code says
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15:57<+glx>but it still does the scan
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16:00<Ammler>let me test with revert of that commit
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16:01<@Yexo>that won't help you
16:01<@Yexo>if you run with -d grf=1, do you get the lines "Scanning for NewGRFs" and "Scan complete, found %d files" ?
16:01<Ammler>no, this wasn't the issue
16:02<Ammler>I also get another console somehow
16:03<Ammler>http://ps.openttdcoop.org/publicserver/yeiR9zaedij4U/dedicated-blitter1.log
16:05<Ammler>./openttd -c openttd.cfg -D -g save/restart.sav -b8bpp-optimized -d grf=1 ^
16:05<frosch123>try r22798
16:05<frosch123>(without)
16:06<Ammler>was that yesteryesterday nightly?
16:06<Ammler>without what?
16:06<+glx>frosch123: should not matter I think
16:07<Ammler>without blitter, it works
16:07<frosch123>to me it looks as if it loads the savegame before starting the server or so
16:08<Ammler>frosch123: indeed
16:08<Ammler>I can load the save after
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16:10<Ammler>somehow it looks like there are different consoles for blitter or without blitter
16:13<Ammler>confusing...
16:13<Zuu>Hmm, doesn't OpenTTD have a macro-statement to put after a default: that should never happen?
16:13<Zuu>I can't find the name of it in the coding style.
16:13<Rubidium>NOT_REACHED()
16:13<Zuu>Thanks
16:14<Zuu>Is it compulsory? Eg. should I add it to the wiki as mandatory?
16:17<@Terkhen>I think it should be
16:18<Ammler>I can't start a new game with blitter anymore
16:19<Ammler>autopilot got confused too
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16:20<Zuu>Terkhen: should the whole default:\nNOT_REACHED() construct be mandatory unless you have a meningfull default case?
16:21<@Terkhen>oh, I got you wrong
16:21<frosch123>in the gui there are many switches without default
16:21<@Terkhen>I think that the "default: NOT_REACHED()" syntax should be mandatory in those cases in which it is used
16:22<@Terkhen>it should only be used on switches where you expect new options on the future, where an error might not be obvious and so on
16:23<Zuu>I've now only documented that it can be used, but not put in any requirements: http://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_style#Control_flow
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16:24<+michi_cc>Zuu: It is mostly mandatory with enum types, as some compilers will warn if you don't handle all enum values inside a switch.
16:24<Ammler>is it possible to enable/change blitter after start?
16:25<@Yexo>no
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16:27*Zuu kind of disslike the long name of AIAirportType::IsAirportTypeInformationAvailable
16:27<Zuu>but I don't have any better ideas..
16:27<Zuu>You could short Information to just "Info".
16:27<Ammler>hmm, I do also get strange results with clean openttd: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/507/
16:28<Ammler>this is a nightly download from openttd.org
16:28<John>Hi can someone help me? I just downloaded openttd and all the graphics/sound folders. I open the game easily and can create a new map, but when I'm unable to scroll around the map.
16:28<Zuu>Hmm maybe completely scrap the "Information" part as I've renamed "IsValidAirport" to "IsAirportTypeBuilbable".
16:28<@Terkhen>John: can you scroll using the right mouse button?
16:29<Zuu>But it is a bit wrong to say that an airport that you can't build is available.
16:29-!-jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-254-203.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:29<John>No I can't. I can click all the buttons at the top, but I can't scroll.
16:29<Ammler>ok, looks like I can make a valid bug report :-)
16:29<John>Ah,, user error. My bad haha
16:29<John>It's working fine now thanks
16:30<John>I was doing something wrong when I clicked. Thanks though.
16:30<Zuu>I would like to rename IsAirportTypeInformationAvailable to IsAirportTypeValid, but that would mean a mess as there is an other function that used to have that name..
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16:30<Zuu>(except that I've added "Type" into the name)
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16:32<Ammler>the question is, if starting usual (non-dedicated) openttd build with -D and -b supported?
16:32<Ammler>well, I create the report, up to you :-)
16:35<SpComb>Ammler: screenshots?
16:36<Ammler>SpComb, yes, doesn't work anymore
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16:42<Ammler>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/compare/510/508/ :-)
16:46<Ammler>can that start difference from clean trunk be considered as bug? ^
16:47*andythenorth -> beer
16:47<Ammler>again?
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16:53<andythenorth>beer helps
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16:55<Wolf01>'night
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16:55*andythenorth considers playing the game
16:55<andythenorth>bit weird
16:56<SpComb>go play multiplayer
16:56<SpComb>on some random server
16:58<andythenorth>frosch123: the ship speed patch display isn't committed?
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17:00<frosch123>not yet
17:01<andythenorth>I won't remove the patch yet then :P
17:01*andythenorth has done no science but make run -j6 seems to work with i7
17:02<noclue>if you don't want to play, critique a test save that I've been lurking for days to get someone to comment on how awful my own play style is <-- only reason I'm here
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17:03<frosch123>night
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17:04<@Terkhen>regarding that you might have better luck in the forums
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17:05<noclue>probably involves creating an account and all sorts of things, couldn't be bothered, I shall vanish never to be seen again soon
17:06<@Yexo>just lurking here won't get you any reactions
17:06<@Yexo>I wouldn't even know where to find said savegame
17:07<noclue>heh http://www.filedropper.com/test_143 well that and I can amuse myself watching some of the development float by
17:09<@Yexo>it'd be better to load the big gui grf as static, so you don't force it on anyone loading your save
17:10<@Yexo>and openttd_plus is a completely broken and useless grf
17:10<@Yexo>you also have two ECS basic vector's loaded
17:11<noclue>it's a mess, by the time I noticed I was into the game
17:12<@Yexo>ok, if you're already aware of it than it's fine :)
17:14<andythenorth>hmm
17:14<andythenorth>is it time for bed?
17:14<@Yexo>I usually use separate stations to drop and to load cargo
17:14<@Yexo>that makes sure that you can have enough trains loading cargo without the risk of them blocking the trains wanting to drop anything
17:15<@Yexo>the map is a bit flat for my taste, but that's a personal choice of course :)
17:15<@Yexo>overall quite a nice game
17:19<noclue>oh well - thanks, I can go now then, first time downloaded and played in a few years, so long as nobody recoils in horror or thinks station junctions look odd :)
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17:49<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 24 00:00:43 2011