| --- | Log | opened Sun Aug 28 00:00:09 2011 |
| 00:01 | <goldspirit> | can i make a multiplayer game |
| 00:01 | <goldspirit> | for me and my oncle and friend |
| 00:01 | <goldspirit> | cuz when i try it.s making an ofline server |
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| 00:02 | <goldspirit> | can you help me? |
| 00:03 | <DDR> | Odds are against it, but what's up? |
| 00:03 | <goldspirit> | Odds? |
| 00:04 | <goldspirit> | against multiplayer online with friend? |
| 00:05 | <DDR> | I'd rate it as maybe 40/60 odds, against your favor, that I can help you. |
| 00:05 | <goldspirit> | but what's the problem :O? |
| 00:05 | <DDR> | Precisely. |
| 00:05 | <goldspirit> | .... |
| 00:06 | <goldspirit> | what?! |
| 00:06 | <DDR> | I'll give it maybe 80% chance you actually tell me the problem, and then maybe half-and-half that I know the answer. |
| 00:07 | <goldspirit> | AH LOL!!! sorry |
| 00:07 | <goldspirit> | !!!! |
| 00:07 | <DDR> | But, that's just an uneducated guess. I just got here! |
| 00:07 | <goldspirit> | ok |
| 00:07 | <goldspirit> | i want to make |
| 00:07 | <goldspirit> | an online multiplayer game for my uncle and my friend |
| 00:07 | <goldspirit> | but everytime i try it make |
| 00:07 | <goldspirit> | an offline server |
| 00:08 | <DDR> | Hm, I've had problems with that myself. Never figured out the answer, the other guy I was playing with could make. :/ |
| 00:08 | <DDR> | Sorry. |
| 00:09 | <goldspirit> | no problem if you finaly have an answer |
| 00:09 | <DDR> | But, what happens every time? Perhaps someone else knows. |
| 00:09 | <goldspirit> | i try to make the game and it'sa offline |
| 00:10 | <DDR> | Ah. Tried making a private online server? |
| 00:10 | <goldspirit> | maybe xD |
| 00:10 | <DDR> | That might work around the problem, but you need internet access. :/ |
| 00:10 | <goldspirit> | lol if im chatting here i have it :) |
| 00:11 | <DDR> | Well, I have a friend who has three offline computers which we like to hook into a simple LAN to game. Those computers don't have access to the internet, but my laptop right beside it can hook into his wireless. |
| 00:12 | <goldspirit> | wth? that strange |
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| 00:12 | <DDR> | Yep. |
| 00:14 | <goldspirit> | maybe it's in the |
| 00:14 | <goldspirit> | information in the game |
| 00:15 | <goldspirit> | that we can change with |
| 00:15 | <goldspirit> | worldpad |
| 00:16 | <DDR> | Good luck. |
| 00:21 | <goldspirit> | did you add some |
| 00:21 | <goldspirit> | newgrf? |
| 00:26 | <pjpe> | why does doing ./configure --enable-profiling && make run-prof only show me function calls related to os x drawing the game |
| 00:28 | <pjpe> | that don't seem right |
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| 03:57 | <@planetmaker> | moin |
| 04:00 | <pjpe> | hey there kiddo |
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| 04:03 | <pjpe> | huh someone made a patch for 10.7 full screen support |
| 04:05 | <@Alberth> | moin andy |
| 04:10 | <andythenorth> | 10.7 is nonsense |
| 04:10 | * | andythenorth ponders manual-dist |
| 04:10 | <andythenorth> | uses the yacd cargo routing |
| 04:10 | <pjpe> | ? |
| 04:11 | <andythenorth> | but instead of yacd calculating destinations, player would go to (e.g. coal mine) and use a routing menu select a valid destination for coal |
| 04:11 | <andythenorth> | with % allocations between n destinations |
| 04:11 | <@planetmaker> | you can do that without fancy menu... |
| 04:12 | <andythenorth> | how? |
| 04:13 | <@planetmaker> | just distribute it to different sources and don't use yacd |
| 04:13 | <andythenorth> | meh |
| 04:14 | <andythenorth> | that's what gave me the idea |
| 04:14 | <@planetmaker> | that's 95% of what you asked... |
| 04:14 | <andythenorth> | I am playing a non-yacd game |
| 04:14 | <andythenorth> | I miss the smart cargo routing |
| 04:14 | <andythenorth> | I don't miss some of the weirder side effects of routing primary cargo |
| 04:17 | <pjpe> | am i wrong or is "./configure --enable-profiling && make run-prof" supposed to give me more than os x specific functions involving NSWindows and NSApplications and such |
| 04:17 | <andythenorth> | also...if the routes could (optionally) be specified in SE, but not edited in game, that would be interesting for scenarios |
| 04:17 | <@planetmaker> | NS* is osx-specific |
| 04:18 | <pjpe> | yeah i know |
| 04:18 | <pjpe> | i figured the profiling would show me game code functions |
| 04:18 | <pjpe> | not os-layer |
| 04:18 | <__ln__> | not necessarily, those could be available also in GNUStep |
| 04:20 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: did you upgrade to lion? |
| 04:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: the difference is automatic transfer (even in two directions) |
| 04:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: i think most of that can be done using the "cargodist" type of routing |
| 04:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: i.e. the available destinations are chosen from the ones actually connected |
| 04:28 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: I didn't yet |
| 04:29 | <@planetmaker> | after cloning of my hdd seemed to fail on some circular symlinks, I was too pissed at that and too lazy to install everything anew on the new hdd |
| 04:31 | <andythenorth> | I only just got snow leopard |
| 04:31 | <andythenorth> | I won't upgrade to lion soon - if ever |
| 04:31 | <pjpe> | jeez |
| 04:31 | <pjpe> | behind the times guy |
| 04:31 | <andythenorth> | at some point in the next few years I probably have to find a new OS :| |
| 04:32 | <pjpe> | why |
| 04:32 | <andythenorth> | it's almost impossible to believe Apple won't make an almighty mis-step |
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| 04:33 | <pjpe> | what makes you think that |
| 04:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | apple will likely disappear into the marginal company it came from as soon as they miss out on one innovation step |
| 04:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | just look at nokia... |
| 04:34 | <andythenorth> | not just one |
| 04:34 | <andythenorth> | they'll miss a bunch in a row |
| 04:34 | <pjpe> | nokia is a marginal company? |
| 04:34 | <__ln__> | quickly becoming one |
| 04:34 | <pjpe> | their revenue last year was 42 billion |
| 04:34 | <pjpe> | euros |
| 04:34 | <__ln__> | last year was last year |
| 04:35 | <__ln__> | nonetheless, they are becoming an OEM manufacturer |
| 04:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | missing out on the whole smartphone thing, not getting any of their products launched, then practically bought out by microsoft |
| 04:35 | <pjpe> | first quarter this year it held 30 percent of the market share of cellular devices |
| 04:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | market share dwindling drastically during that time |
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| 04:37 | <__ln__> | nokia is in that position because of religious reasons. (and the religion is symbian.) |
| 04:38 | <andythenorth> | when I got OS X beta there were lots of older guys on forums saying "system 7 was quite good enough for me. I certainly don't want any of this unix nonsense" |
| 04:38 | <andythenorth> | I have become that guy :P |
| 04:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | __ln__: what about meego? |
| 04:39 | <@planetmaker> | anyway, two tasks less in our bug tracker - and that without work |
| 04:40 | <andythenorth> | why change an OS :P |
| 04:41 | <__ln__> | Eddi|zuHause: it's been said most nokians were interested in meego only in the sense "how much will it cut down sales of symbian?" |
| 04:41 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth: two reasons only: security and application support |
| 04:41 | <andythenorth> | used to also be performance |
| 04:41 | <@planetmaker> | both don't call yet for lion |
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| 04:41 | <andythenorth> | lion == much less application support |
| 04:41 | <andythenorth> | performance won't get much better until I can afford an SSD |
| 04:42 | <andythenorth> | stability is a solved problem |
| 04:42 | <Wolf01> | hello |
| 04:42 | <andythenorth> | and new GUI stuff I can't be bothered to learn any more |
| 04:43 | <@Alberth> | hi Wolf01 |
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| 04:48 | <@planetmaker> | hardware support is actually a third criterion for OS upgrades |
| 04:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the main problem is the lack of backwards compatibility |
| 04:50 | <@planetmaker> | often yes |
| 04:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (ranging from something just not working anymore because it was badly programmed in the first place, to deliberately deprecating fairly new APIs, meaning a rewrite for most apps older than 2 years) |
| 04:55 | <andythenorth> | bbl |
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| 08:02 | <andythenorth> | @seen Yexo |
| 08:02 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 13 hours, 27 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <Yexo> or gui from openttd pasted over graphics from some other game |
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| 08:53 | <Hirundo> | What happens (or rather, should happen) if a railtype grf does not define all the 'required' entries in the action3, but does define some others? |
| 08:54 | <Hirundo> | For example, a grf that defines only depot or catenary gfx, but no overlays/underlays |
| 08:58 | <frosch123> | what currently happens: it draws nonsense |
| 08:58 | <frosch123> | like mousecursors and character glyphs |
| 08:59 | <frosch123> | what should happen? either draw the questionmark, or revert to default graphics |
| 08:59 | <frosch123> | no idea how much work are either of those |
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| 09:03 | <@planetmaker> | default graphics might be the nicer fallback and allow for more flexible customization |
| 09:07 | <Hirundo> | Basically you need to supply all the stuff with rails on them in one go |
| 09:08 | <Hirundo> | Having different overlays and underlays just makes no sense |
| 09:08 | <Hirundo> | But supplying catenary and nothing else might, though |
| 09:10 | <Hirundo> | IMO it should be 'all or nothing' for the required stuff (at least NML could enforce that), but all the others are optional and could be defined individually |
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| 09:51 | * | andythenorth is bored of station ratings |
| 09:51 | <andythenorth> | maybe a grf to keep them at 100% :P |
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| 13:35 | <@Yexo> | <Hirundo> [15:10:31] IMO it should be 'all or nothing' for the required stuff (at least NML could enforce that), but all the others are optional and could be defined individually <- but it's perfectly valid to check if a certain railtype is defined and if so, override only the depots |
| 13:35 | <@Yexo> | at least from what I remember that works correctly |
| 13:38 | -!- | LadyHawk [~here@office01.ldhosting.com] has joined #openttd |
| 13:40 | <LadyHawk> | hmm so i'm playing ottd again with these huge amounts of trains over a small piece of track |
| 13:41 | <LadyHawk> | and i found something that's a bit strange with path signals |
| 13:42 | <LadyHawk> | basically, if a train entering a path signal block has 3 possible exits |
| 13:42 | <LadyHawk> | it will pick the one that's been free the longest amount of time |
| 13:42 | <LadyHawk> | even if that exit track's signal is green, but blocked off by another train |
| 13:43 | <LadyHawk> | instead of picking a perfectly free path, the train STOPS and waits |
| 13:43 | <LadyHawk> | which is bad? |
| 13:43 | <frosch123> | do not mix path signals with exit signals |
| 13:43 | <@planetmaker> | the blue one |
| 13:45 | <LadyHawk> | would it be possible to adjust the behaviour so it picks the SHORTEST free route instead? |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: translators * r22852 /trunk/src/lang/ (finnish.txt unfinished/persian.txt vietnamese.txt): |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by USephiroth |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: persian - 3 changes by Peymanpn |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: vietnamese - 2 changes by nglekhoi |
| 13:45 | <Ammler> | LadyHawk: maybe your penalty settings are screwed up, try with a new cfg |
| 13:46 | <frosch123> | LadyHawk: your observation is wrong, the pathfinder always picks the shortest wrong |
| 13:46 | <Ammler> | (on a new game) |
| 13:46 | <LadyHawk> | or is that a lot of coding? (i know hassle in the past with pbs) |
| 13:46 | <frosch123> | likely your signal layout is wrong, but you did not show us a screenshot |
| 13:46 | <LadyHawk> | i could show a screenshot, hang on |
| 13:46 | <LadyHawk> | gotta take one firstg |
| 13:46 | <@planetmaker> | that is never required when talking about signals and vehicles moving or loading funnily |
| 13:47 | <LadyHawk> | and i'll also have the issue i'm describing on the4 screenshot as well |
| 13:50 | <LadyHawk> | tryiing to get into my ftp now.. |
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| 13:56 | <LadyHawk> | i can't get in |
| 13:56 | <LadyHawk> | this is annoying |
| 13:59 | <LadyHawk> | http://i.imgur.com/khmTI.png |
| 13:59 | <LadyHawk> | there |
| 14:01 | <LadyHawk> | all tracks go to the exact same spot, so the waiting train should just go straight over, which is the shortest route and also the only free route available |
| 14:01 | <LadyHawk> | but it doesn't want it |
| 14:01 | <LadyHawk> | it wants track 2 |
| 14:01 | <LadyHawk> | because it was the longest free track until someone else reserved a path to it |
| 14:02 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you might want to change the amount of signals considered for lookahead |
| 14:02 | <LadyHawk> | oh that sounds like something that's been annoying me for a while |
| 14:03 | <LadyHawk> | where could i find this setting? |
| 14:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in the console |
| 14:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | try "list_settings lookahead" or something |
| 14:04 | <Eddi|zuHause> | default value is 10 |
| 14:05 | <frosch123> | at first you should remove at least the first three signals on every line after the junction |
| 14:05 | <LadyHawk> | frosch123 i do that and the trains block up in front of the junction, there's too much traffic it needs to go fast ;) |
| 14:05 | <LadyHawk> | Eddi|zuHause it's not actually showing me a value when i type that in |
| 14:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | LadyHawk: then the name is something else |
| 14:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | LadyHawk: try "list_settings signal" |
| 14:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | LadyHawk: or "list_settings pf.yapf.rail" |
| 14:07 | <LadyHawk> | hmm list_settings signal showed me a bunch of things |
| 14:08 | <LadyHawk> | pf.yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals 10 |
| 14:08 | <LadyHawk> | i'm guessing this is the one |
| 14:08 | <LadyHawk> | so how would i change this one |
| 14:09 | <LadyHawk> | setting signal pf.yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals 5 |
| 14:09 | <LadyHawk> | for example? |
| 14:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | LadyHawk: without the first "signal" |
| 14:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so it would have been "look_ahead" earlier |
| 14:10 | <LadyHawk> | done, it didn't give me any confirmation, just a new command line |
| 14:10 | <LadyHawk> | probably yes |
| 14:10 | <LadyHawk> | let me test :) |
| 14:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | mind you: all changes to pathfinder settings may cause trouble at the other end of your network |
| 14:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a guy recently had trouble because this setting was too low |
| 14:13 | <LadyHawk> | i've set it to 2 |
| 14:13 | <LadyHawk> | and i must say, the trains stop behaving randomly |
| 14:14 | <LadyHawk> | now they're showing a clear pattern as to which exit track they prefer when they have more than 1 choice |
| 14:16 | <LadyHawk> | it's going a lot smoother on busy blocks like that now (116 trains in total on that track in the screenshot) |
| 14:16 | <LadyHawk> | thanks a lot for showing me this :D |
| 14:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | beware of loops when setting this to low values |
| 14:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a train might decide to go in circles instead of waiting for a signal to become green |
| 14:18 | <LadyHawk> | the chosing depots thing looks broken now but at least it makes sense now as to what the train wants to do |
| 14:18 | <LadyHawk> | so i can fix it properly |
| 14:18 | <LadyHawk> | that's another thing the trains just kept doing at random... can't fix something if it seems random |
| 14:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | nothing is random in this game. not even the random values :p |
| 14:19 | <LadyHawk> | if i can't spot a behaviour pattern i find it random enough |
| 14:20 | <LadyHawk> | thanks again Eddi|zuHause, i'm gonna go now :) |
| 14:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what you mean is chaotic :) |
| 14:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | chaotic means there is a system behind it that we do not (yet) recognize |
| 14:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's basically the opposite of random (which means there is no system behind it at all) |
| 14:30 | <supermop_> | that's incorrect |
| 14:30 | <supermop_> | chaos means 'without order' |
| 14:32 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, until you bring in the phrase "the genious brings order to the chaos" |
| 14:32 | <supermop_> | that implies that chaos has no order |
| 14:33 | <@planetmaker> | does it have? |
| 14:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but it has, the non-genious is just unable to see it |
| 14:33 | <supermop_> | if improved perception divines order, then it was not a chaos to begin with |
| 14:33 | <@planetmaker> | chaotic in a scientific term means that it depends on the initial conditions more sensitively than you can measure |
| 14:33 | <@planetmaker> | (or boundary conditions) |
| 14:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | chaos is the oldest god (in greek mythology) |
| 14:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | then gaia was born |
| 14:35 | <supermop_> | yes, chaos is the primordial state before order was created |
| 14:36 | <@planetmaker> | hm... can an industry read the road bits of an adjacent tile? |
| 14:36 | <@planetmaker> | I only find that I can see "road yes/no" - but maybe I miss something |
| 14:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i don't think the road bits can be read |
| 14:37 | <@planetmaker> | I want to draw a gate where the road goes towards the industry tile :-) |
| 14:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: instead of road bits, you need something like "road continuation info" (similar to rail stations) |
| 14:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: makes it more flexible wrt. bridge heads, road stations, depots, "traffic objects", ... |
| 14:39 | <@planetmaker> | yes, that would suit better |
| 14:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | also, you might want to draw a gate for rails as well ;) |
| 14:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | for future flexibility, "road continuation info" may be a list of lanes with an offset and a direction |
| 14:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | by default, offsets might be 6 and 10. in/out depending on road side |
| 14:42 | <@planetmaker> | hm... interesting, yes :-) |
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| 14:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you limit number of lanes to 4, you could bitstuff that into a dword (4 bit offset (0-15) and 3 bit direction (DIR_N..DIR_NW)) |
| 14:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | leaves 1 bit for used/unused |
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| 14:53 | <Hirundo> | Yexo: The guy in the NML topic complained that his depot-only grf didn't work |
| 14:54 | <Hirundo> | As far as I've been able to see, depots are the only case where having the 'required' stuff is a prerequisite |
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| 15:02 | <Hirundo> | Which gave the confusing result that his grf only worked if loaded after a grf that re-defined "RAIL" itself (eg swedishrails) |
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| 15:24 | <perk11> | http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Escapedepot.png why doesn't this combination seem to work anymore in 1.1.2? |
| 15:24 | <perk11> | It used to work in previous versions |
| 15:26 | <@Terkhen> | what does it do now and what did it before? |
| 15:26 | <+glx> | exit signals without entry is strange |
| 15:26 | <perk11> | the train went to the depot when all the paths are full |
| 15:27 | <perk11> | and now they just choose the nearest path |
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| 15:30 | <perk11> | It worked maybe because there was a combo signal in the depot |
| 15:31 | <+michi_cc> | My guess: You have pf.yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol set to false (the default since 1.1 or maybe 1.0, not sure) while the example assumes a value of true. There are a lot more situations where false makes more sense than those few that only work with true, which is why it was changed. |
| 15:31 | <perk11> | ok |
| 15:31 | <perk11> | I'll check it |
| 15:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think there are variants of overflow depots that work without "eol" being set to true |
| 15:33 | <perk11> | michi_cc: you are right |
| 15:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | basically you need to make sure that firstred_exit_penalty is larger than the depot penalty |
| 15:34 | <perk11> | Eddi|zuHause: maybe someone will add one of those to the wiki? |
| 15:34 | <perk11> | Instead of that one |
| 15:34 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i am pretty sure i have seen it somewhere |
| 15:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | perk11: the wiki page should rather more clearly say that this value has to be said |
| 15:35 | <perk11> | Eddi|zuHause: ok |
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| 15:40 | <Hirundo> | frosch123: Would this diff make sense: http://pastebin.com/xpPxjSZ9 ? |
| 15:42 | <frosch123> | what shall it do? |
| 15:43 | <frosch123> | ah, it allows replacing the depot without the tracks, right? |
| 15:44 | <frosch123> | is this the only place? what about the gui? |
| 15:45 | <frosch123> | i.e. the orientation picker |
| 15:45 | <Hirundo> | The GUI sprite selection is not so picky |
| 15:45 | <Hirundo> | either you replace or do not replace all sprites |
| 15:46 | <frosch123> | i mean the orientation picker, not the toolbar |
| 15:48 | <frosch123> | DrawTrainDepotSprite() needs the same change |
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| 15:48 | <xahodo> | Hello |
| 15:48 | <Hirundo> | indeed |
| 15:48 | <Hirundo> | can't test right now as my just-compiled OpenTTD crashes on startup |
| 15:50 | <Hirundo> | And now I did *something* that made MSVC think it needs a full recompile *argh* |
| 15:51 | <@planetmaker> | string change? |
| 15:51 | <Hirundo> | string change doesn't rebuild blitters/drivers :S probably touched some config while messing with my repo |
| 15:53 | <xahodo> | Which advanced setting regulates how long trains wait to find a path past a signal? |
| 15:53 | <xahodo> | I've got trains waiting on a busy peace of track while a continued path is available. |
| 16:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | they calculate which path is the shortest and then wait until that exact path gets free. if an actually free path is longer, they never take that |
| 16:04 | <xahodo> | problem is, they wait for the free route, even though they can already take it for some time. |
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| 16:05 | <xahodo> | it takes them about a second to realize they can move on. |
| 16:05 | * | planetmaker senses again a discussion about "this train should go here or there" without savegame or least a screenshot |
| 16:05 | <xahodo> | no |
| 16:06 | * | xahodo foobared some patch setting, wonders which |
| 16:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | xahodo: try the path backoff interval |
| 16:07 | * | xahodo hugs Eddi|zuHause |
| 16:07 | <xahodo> | THANKS |
| 16:08 | <Hirundo> | frosch123: New diff, this time tested beyond compilation: http://pastebin.com/A6cmbkL6 |
| 16:09 | <Hirundo> | AFAIK, all other non-required stuff (catenary, gui) works the same |
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| 16:20 | <xahodo> | Thanks for the help Eddi|zuHause, but it turned out to be pf.wait_oneway_signal |
| 16:20 | <xahodo> | I reduced its value to 2 |
| 16:22 | <xahodo> | errr... I also reduced pf.path_backoff_interval to 1 at first. but the latter setting did the trick. |
| 16:24 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 16:28 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: frosch * r22853 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_tile.hpp: -Doc: Add a missing bit of AI documentation. |
| 16:33 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: frosch * r22854 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Change: [NewGRF] Allow replacing depot sprites without having to provide rail overlays. (Hirundo) |
| 16:34 | <Hirundo> | Thanks frosch123 :) |
| 16:34 | <frosch123> | thanks as well :) |
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| 16:40 | <@planetmaker> | great :-) |
| 16:40 | <supermop__> | wait what? |
| 16:43 | <frosch123> | night |
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| 16:45 | <supermop__> | what happened? |
| 16:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | two people thanked each other and you missed the point. |
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| 16:47 | <totot> | hey |
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| 16:56 | <pjpe> | oh planetmaker |
| 16:56 | <pjpe> | how did you get liblzma on os x |
| 16:57 | <@planetmaker> | sudo port install lzma |
| 16:57 | <pjpe> | macports? |
| 16:57 | <@planetmaker> | yup |
| 16:57 | <pjpe> | i tried brew install lama and opened doesn't recognize it |
| 16:57 | <pjpe> | lzma |
| 16:57 | <@planetmaker> | brew? |
| 16:57 | <@planetmaker> | omg |
| 16:57 | <@planetmaker> | everytime I looked at their pages I was like "wth?!" |
| 16:58 | <@planetmaker> | if people follow their advice they're on the path to sudo rm -rf / |
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| 17:02 | <@planetmaker> | basically you'll have to teach the system to look for the header files and libaries in the proper paths, though |
| 17:05 | <@planetmaker> | and... the proper package name is liblzma of course |
| 17:05 | <@planetmaker> | also on macports |
| 17:05 | <@planetmaker> | but I guess the wiki describes it |
| 17:05 | <pjpe> | brew only has one called lzma |
| 17:06 | <@planetmaker> | you need not the archiver but the development libraries and headers |
| 17:06 | <@planetmaker> | macports has both, lzma and liblzma |
| 17:08 | <pjpe> | now why does make run-prof profile right on ubuntu but not on os x |
| 17:08 | <pjpe> | wth |
| 17:09 | <@planetmaker> | osx is a bsd, not a linux ;-) |
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| 17:15 | <__ln__> | is there any unit of length that cannot be converted to metres by multiplying with a constant? |
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| 17:19 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
| 17:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | __ln__: you mean like a logarithmic scale? |
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| 17:32 | <__ln__> | Eddi|zuHause: that, and/or zero has an offset. |
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| 17:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (off the top of my head) the only units which have an offset are for temperature and pressure |
| 17:34 | <__ln__> | how boring |
| 17:37 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (pressure used to be given in "Atmosphärenüberdruck" (atü) with the offset 1 bar = 0 atü) |
| 17:41 | <@planetmaker> | energy has an arbitrary offset |
| 17:41 | <@planetmaker> | and needs gauging |
| 17:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | energy, similar to distance, is a unit of differences, the offset is irrelevant there |
| 17:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | basically all vectorial units have that |
| 17:46 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's the very nature of a vector |
| 17:47 | <@planetmaker> | energy is a scalar, not a vector |
| 17:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | depends on what you define as a vector ;) |
| 17:48 | <@planetmaker> | not really. Energy is never a vector |
| 17:48 | <@planetmaker> | you may calculate with the energy-momentum tensor. But that's a matrix rather |
| 17:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a vector is a member of a set that has operations vector+vector and scalar*vector defined. clearly energy has that ;) |
| 17:49 | <@planetmaker> | no. As there's no vector |
| 17:49 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but in comparison, temperature+temperature or pressure+pressure doesn't make a lot of sense |
| 17:50 | <@planetmaker> | with your definition of vector "1" is also a vector |
| 17:50 | <@planetmaker> | which is ... not true according to the usual algebra |
| 17:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, 1 (of set R) is a member of the vector-space R^1 |
| 17:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | obviously, any field is in itself also a vector-space |
| 17:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it's perfectly legal for "1" to be both scalar and vector at the same time ;) |
| 17:53 | <@planetmaker> | and it's similarily pointless |
| 17:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | only if you have no clue of maths ;) |
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| 17:55 | <@planetmaker> | sure. Good that you know then how to treat energy as a "vector". Which is physically nonsense |
| 17:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you'll have to do away with the interpretation that "vector" is "something like a direction" |
| 17:57 | <@planetmaker> | you're forgetting that you argue physics - where energy is not useful to treat as vector |
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| 17:58 | <@planetmaker> | thus you have to use actually something more than mathematical deduction ab initio |
| 17:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | no, i forgot that i was discussing with a physicist :) |
| 17:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (and didn't make my nomenclature clear in the beginning) |
| 17:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | let's just conclude that your idea of "vector" and my idea of "vector" don't quite match |
| 18:00 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and thus i meant something different than you understood |
| 18:00 | <@planetmaker> | I know well the mathematical definition of vector. It simply does not apply to the context you used it |
| 18:01 | <@planetmaker> | saying a scalar quantity is a vector may be mathematically correct - but is physically nonsense |
| 18:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what is the core of a vector (in my sense above) was that there is no defined "origin" |
| 18:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what may make this distinction clear is the concept of time. there is a defined origin called "birth of christ" (even if that does not really match the actual event). and there are absolute times (like 29.8.2006 0:07) and relative times (2 minutes 3 seconds) |
| 18:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the relative times are "vectors" in the mathematical sense |
| 18:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in the sense that you can freely add and substract them, or scale them |
| 18:08 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but you cannot add absolute times, or scale them |
| 18:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (you can substract absolute times, and get a relative time, though) |
| 18:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (mathematically, the combination of absolute and relative times is an affine space) |
| 18:10 | * | __ln__ 's Theorem: a vector is a more or less straight line drawn on paper, with an arrow in one end |
| 18:10 | <@planetmaker> | with that definition everything is a vector |
| 18:11 | <@planetmaker> | and... time is actually one of the worst things to speak of when using "absolute" in the same sentence |
| 18:11 | <@planetmaker> | your GPS would fail, if there was anywhere an absolute time |
| 18:13 | <@planetmaker> | temperature has an absolute zero, though |
| 18:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | ok, when you add the relativistic element, things get complicated :p |
| 18:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: the same argument holds with absolute temperatures and temperature-differences as well |
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| 18:15 | <@planetmaker> | you can't "add" temperature |
| 18:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, but i can add temperature-differences |
| 18:16 | <@planetmaker> | neither. |
| 18:16 | <@planetmaker> | You can add or remove energy |
| 18:16 | <@planetmaker> | which may or may not result in a temperature change |
| 18:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that is technical blah :) |
| 18:17 | <@planetmaker> | not at all |
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| 18:17 | <@planetmaker> | without this distinction time direction would be undefined as it defines entropy |
| 18:17 | <@planetmaker> | (around a few corners at least ;-) ) |
| 18:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | in a simplified temperature-model, every material has a caloric constant, which directly scales an energy into a temperature difference |
| 18:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | this means, temperature-differences and energy are isomorphic vector spaces |
| 18:19 | <@planetmaker> | this model is invalid if you want to include the zero-point |
| 18:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (if you leave out all the crazy freezing stuff) |
| 18:19 | <@planetmaker> | for ALL materials |
| 18:19 | <@planetmaker> | even without phase transitions |
| 18:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | well, a temperature model as simplified as this would have no absolute zero, since that cannot happen in a vector space :) |
| 18:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | (vector spaces must be defined over a field, which means it must be "open") |
| 18:22 | <@planetmaker> | a vector space has a well-defined 0 for the add operation |
| 18:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes. but that is not the same as an "absolute 0" |
| 18:22 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it also has nothing to do with an "origin" |
| 18:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | planetmaker: the "0" you think of would be a "0 temperature-difference", not a "absolute 0 temperature" |
| 18:24 | <Eddi|zuHause> | confusing the two clearly demonstrates that you still have not understood my point |
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| 18:26 | <@planetmaker> | so you argue physics, throw away the physical boundaries, simplify to an unphysical, unbound vector space and I have mis-understood your point? |
| 18:27 | <@planetmaker> | I'd rather argue you're confusing some things ;-) |
| 18:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | clearly, as the point was to throw away all the physical nonsense and discuss the underlying mathematical concept |
| 18:28 | <@planetmaker> | that was not what we started discussing nor I ever discussed |
| 18:29 | <@planetmaker> | the starting point was your statement that energy is a vector. Which remains of dubious quality |
| 18:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what i meant to explain was that my concept of "vector" as used in the initial sentence was "anything that can reasonably be described as the difference of two absolute values" |
| 18:30 | <@planetmaker> | well. Energy already is not an absolute value as it's subject to the gauge invariance |
| 18:31 | <@planetmaker> | (though by all practical terms, the offset can usually be set to 0) |
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| --- | Log | closed Mon Aug 29 00:00:18 2011 |
