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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-08-28

---Logopened Sun Aug 28 00:00:09 2011
00:01<goldspirit>can i make a multiplayer game
00:01<goldspirit>for me and my oncle and friend
00:01<goldspirit>cuz when i try it.s making an ofline server
00:01-!-DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
00:02<goldspirit>can you help me?
00:03<DDR>Odds are against it, but what's up?
00:03<goldspirit>Odds?
00:04<goldspirit>against multiplayer online with friend?
00:05<DDR>I'd rate it as maybe 40/60 odds, against your favor, that I can help you.
00:05<goldspirit>but what's the problem :O?
00:05<DDR>Precisely.
00:05<goldspirit>....
00:06<goldspirit>what?!
00:06<DDR>I'll give it maybe 80% chance you actually tell me the problem, and then maybe half-and-half that I know the answer.
00:07<goldspirit>AH LOL!!! sorry
00:07<goldspirit>!!!!
00:07<DDR>But, that's just an uneducated guess. I just got here!
00:07<goldspirit>ok
00:07<goldspirit>i want to make
00:07<goldspirit>an online multiplayer game for my uncle and my friend
00:07<goldspirit>but everytime i try it make
00:07<goldspirit>an offline server
00:08<DDR>Hm, I've had problems with that myself. Never figured out the answer, the other guy I was playing with could make. :/
00:08<DDR>Sorry.
00:09<goldspirit>no problem if you finaly have an answer
00:09<DDR>But, what happens every time? Perhaps someone else knows.
00:09<goldspirit>i try to make the game and it'sa offline
00:10<DDR>Ah. Tried making a private online server?
00:10<goldspirit>maybe xD
00:10<DDR>That might work around the problem, but you need internet access. :/
00:10<goldspirit>lol if im chatting here i have it :)
00:11<DDR>Well, I have a friend who has three offline computers which we like to hook into a simple LAN to game. Those computers don't have access to the internet, but my laptop right beside it can hook into his wireless.
00:12<goldspirit>wth? that strange
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00:12<DDR>Yep.
00:14<goldspirit>maybe it's in the
00:14<goldspirit>information in the game
00:15<goldspirit>that we can change with
00:15<goldspirit>worldpad
00:16<DDR>Good luck.
00:21<goldspirit>did you add some
00:21<goldspirit>newgrf?
00:26<pjpe>why does doing ./configure --enable-profiling && make run-prof only show me function calls related to os x drawing the game
00:28<pjpe>that don't seem right
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03:57<@planetmaker>moin
04:00<pjpe>hey there kiddo
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04:03<pjpe>huh someone made a patch for 10.7 full screen support
04:05<@Alberth>moin andy
04:10<andythenorth>10.7 is nonsense
04:10*andythenorth ponders manual-dist
04:10<andythenorth>uses the yacd cargo routing
04:10<pjpe>?
04:11<andythenorth>but instead of yacd calculating destinations, player would go to (e.g. coal mine) and use a routing menu select a valid destination for coal
04:11<andythenorth>with % allocations between n destinations
04:11<@planetmaker>you can do that without fancy menu...
04:12<andythenorth>how?
04:13<@planetmaker>just distribute it to different sources and don't use yacd
04:13<andythenorth>meh
04:14<andythenorth>that's what gave me the idea
04:14<@planetmaker>that's 95% of what you asked...
04:14<andythenorth>I am playing a non-yacd game
04:14<andythenorth>I miss the smart cargo routing
04:14<andythenorth>I don't miss some of the weirder side effects of routing primary cargo
04:17<pjpe>am i wrong or is "./configure --enable-profiling && make run-prof" supposed to give me more than os x specific functions involving NSWindows and NSApplications and such
04:17<andythenorth>also...if the routes could (optionally) be specified in SE, but not edited in game, that would be interesting for scenarios
04:17<@planetmaker>NS* is osx-specific
04:18<pjpe>yeah i know
04:18<pjpe>i figured the profiling would show me game code functions
04:18<pjpe>not os-layer
04:18<__ln__>not necessarily, those could be available also in GNUStep
04:20<andythenorth>planetmaker: did you upgrade to lion?
04:26<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the difference is automatic transfer (even in two directions)
04:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think most of that can be done using the "cargodist" type of routing
04:28<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i.e. the available destinations are chosen from the ones actually connected
04:28<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I didn't yet
04:29<@planetmaker>after cloning of my hdd seemed to fail on some circular symlinks, I was too pissed at that and too lazy to install everything anew on the new hdd
04:31<andythenorth>I only just got snow leopard
04:31<andythenorth>I won't upgrade to lion soon - if ever
04:31<pjpe>jeez
04:31<pjpe>behind the times guy
04:31<andythenorth>at some point in the next few years I probably have to find a new OS :|
04:32<pjpe>why
04:32<andythenorth>it's almost impossible to believe Apple won't make an almighty mis-step
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04:33<pjpe>what makes you think that
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>apple will likely disappear into the marginal company it came from as soon as they miss out on one innovation step
04:34<Eddi|zuHause>just look at nokia...
04:34<andythenorth>not just one
04:34<andythenorth>they'll miss a bunch in a row
04:34<pjpe>nokia is a marginal company?
04:34<__ln__>quickly becoming one
04:34<pjpe>their revenue last year was 42 billion
04:34<pjpe>euros
04:34<__ln__>last year was last year
04:35<__ln__>nonetheless, they are becoming an OEM manufacturer
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>missing out on the whole smartphone thing, not getting any of their products launched, then practically bought out by microsoft
04:35<pjpe>first quarter this year it held 30 percent of the market share of cellular devices
04:35<Eddi|zuHause>market share dwindling drastically during that time
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04:37<__ln__>nokia is in that position because of religious reasons. (and the religion is symbian.)
04:38<andythenorth>when I got OS X beta there were lots of older guys on forums saying "system 7 was quite good enough for me. I certainly don't want any of this unix nonsense"
04:38<andythenorth>I have become that guy :P
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: what about meego?
04:39<@planetmaker>anyway, two tasks less in our bug tracker - and that without work
04:40<andythenorth>why change an OS :P
04:41<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: it's been said most nokians were interested in meego only in the sense "how much will it cut down sales of symbian?"
04:41<@planetmaker>andythenorth: two reasons only: security and application support
04:41<andythenorth>used to also be performance
04:41<@planetmaker>both don't call yet for lion
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04:41<andythenorth>lion == much less application support
04:41<andythenorth>performance won't get much better until I can afford an SSD
04:42<andythenorth>stability is a solved problem
04:42<Wolf01>hello
04:42<andythenorth>and new GUI stuff I can't be bothered to learn any more
04:43<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
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04:48<@planetmaker>hardware support is actually a third criterion for OS upgrades
04:49<Eddi|zuHause>the main problem is the lack of backwards compatibility
04:50<@planetmaker>often yes
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>(ranging from something just not working anymore because it was badly programmed in the first place, to deliberately deprecating fairly new APIs, meaning a rewrite for most apps older than 2 years)
04:55<andythenorth>bbl
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08:02<andythenorth>@seen Yexo
08:02<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 13 hours, 27 minutes, and 23 seconds ago: <Yexo> or gui from openttd pasted over graphics from some other game
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08:53<Hirundo>What happens (or rather, should happen) if a railtype grf does not define all the 'required' entries in the action3, but does define some others?
08:54<Hirundo>For example, a grf that defines only depot or catenary gfx, but no overlays/underlays
08:58<frosch123>what currently happens: it draws nonsense
08:58<frosch123>like mousecursors and character glyphs
08:59<frosch123>what should happen? either draw the questionmark, or revert to default graphics
08:59<frosch123>no idea how much work are either of those
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09:03<@planetmaker>default graphics might be the nicer fallback and allow for more flexible customization
09:07<Hirundo>Basically you need to supply all the stuff with rails on them in one go
09:08<Hirundo>Having different overlays and underlays just makes no sense
09:08<Hirundo>But supplying catenary and nothing else might, though
09:10<Hirundo>IMO it should be 'all or nothing' for the required stuff (at least NML could enforce that), but all the others are optional and could be defined individually
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09:51*andythenorth is bored of station ratings
09:51<andythenorth>maybe a grf to keep them at 100% :P
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13:35<@Yexo><Hirundo> [15:10:31] IMO it should be 'all or nothing' for the required stuff (at least NML could enforce that), but all the others are optional and could be defined individually <- but it's perfectly valid to check if a certain railtype is defined and if so, override only the depots
13:35<@Yexo>at least from what I remember that works correctly
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13:40<LadyHawk>hmm so i'm playing ottd again with these huge amounts of trains over a small piece of track
13:41<LadyHawk>and i found something that's a bit strange with path signals
13:42<LadyHawk>basically, if a train entering a path signal block has 3 possible exits
13:42<LadyHawk>it will pick the one that's been free the longest amount of time
13:42<LadyHawk>even if that exit track's signal is green, but blocked off by another train
13:43<LadyHawk>instead of picking a perfectly free path, the train STOPS and waits
13:43<LadyHawk>which is bad?
13:43<frosch123>do not mix path signals with exit signals
13:43<@planetmaker>the blue one
13:45<LadyHawk>would it be possible to adjust the behaviour so it picks the SHORTEST free route instead?
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22852 /trunk/src/lang/ (finnish.txt unfinished/persian.txt vietnamese.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by USephiroth
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 3 changes by Peymanpn
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: vietnamese - 2 changes by nglekhoi
13:45<Ammler>LadyHawk: maybe your penalty settings are screwed up, try with a new cfg
13:46<frosch123>LadyHawk: your observation is wrong, the pathfinder always picks the shortest wrong
13:46<Ammler>(on a new game)
13:46<LadyHawk>or is that a lot of coding? (i know hassle in the past with pbs)
13:46<frosch123>likely your signal layout is wrong, but you did not show us a screenshot
13:46<LadyHawk>i could show a screenshot, hang on
13:46<LadyHawk>gotta take one firstg
13:46<@planetmaker>that is never required when talking about signals and vehicles moving or loading funnily
13:47<LadyHawk>and i'll also have the issue i'm describing on the4 screenshot as well
13:50<LadyHawk>tryiing to get into my ftp now..
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13:56<LadyHawk>i can't get in
13:56<LadyHawk>this is annoying
13:59<LadyHawk>http://i.imgur.com/khmTI.png
13:59<LadyHawk>there
14:01<LadyHawk>all tracks go to the exact same spot, so the waiting train should just go straight over, which is the shortest route and also the only free route available
14:01<LadyHawk>but it doesn't want it
14:01<LadyHawk>it wants track 2
14:01<LadyHawk>because it was the longest free track until someone else reserved a path to it
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>you might want to change the amount of signals considered for lookahead
14:02<LadyHawk>oh that sounds like something that's been annoying me for a while
14:03<LadyHawk>where could i find this setting?
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>in the console
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>try "list_settings lookahead" or something
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>default value is 10
14:05<frosch123>at first you should remove at least the first three signals on every line after the junction
14:05<LadyHawk>frosch123 i do that and the trains block up in front of the junction, there's too much traffic it needs to go fast ;)
14:05<LadyHawk>Eddi|zuHause it's not actually showing me a value when i type that in
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>LadyHawk: then the name is something else
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>LadyHawk: try "list_settings signal"
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>LadyHawk: or "list_settings pf.yapf.rail"
14:07<LadyHawk>hmm list_settings signal showed me a bunch of things
14:08<LadyHawk>pf.yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals 10
14:08<LadyHawk>i'm guessing this is the one
14:08<LadyHawk>so how would i change this one
14:09<LadyHawk>setting signal pf.yapf.rail_look_ahead_max_signals 5
14:09<LadyHawk> for example?
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>LadyHawk: without the first "signal"
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>so it would have been "look_ahead" earlier
14:10<LadyHawk>done, it didn't give me any confirmation, just a new command line
14:10<LadyHawk>probably yes
14:10<LadyHawk>let me test :)
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>mind you: all changes to pathfinder settings may cause trouble at the other end of your network
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>a guy recently had trouble because this setting was too low
14:13<LadyHawk>i've set it to 2
14:13<LadyHawk>and i must say, the trains stop behaving randomly
14:14<LadyHawk>now they're showing a clear pattern as to which exit track they prefer when they have more than 1 choice
14:16<LadyHawk>it's going a lot smoother on busy blocks like that now (116 trains in total on that track in the screenshot)
14:16<LadyHawk>thanks a lot for showing me this :D
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>beware of loops when setting this to low values
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>a train might decide to go in circles instead of waiting for a signal to become green
14:18<LadyHawk>the chosing depots thing looks broken now but at least it makes sense now as to what the train wants to do
14:18<LadyHawk>so i can fix it properly
14:18<LadyHawk>that's another thing the trains just kept doing at random... can't fix something if it seems random
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>nothing is random in this game. not even the random values :p
14:19<LadyHawk>if i can't spot a behaviour pattern i find it random enough
14:20<LadyHawk>thanks again Eddi|zuHause, i'm gonna go now :)
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>what you mean is chaotic :)
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>chaotic means there is a system behind it that we do not (yet) recognize
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>that's basically the opposite of random (which means there is no system behind it at all)
14:30<supermop_>that's incorrect
14:30<supermop_>chaos means 'without order'
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, until you bring in the phrase "the genious brings order to the chaos"
14:32<supermop_>that implies that chaos has no order
14:33<@planetmaker>does it have?
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>but it has, the non-genious is just unable to see it
14:33<supermop_>if improved perception divines order, then it was not a chaos to begin with
14:33<@planetmaker>chaotic in a scientific term means that it depends on the initial conditions more sensitively than you can measure
14:33<@planetmaker>(or boundary conditions)
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>chaos is the oldest god (in greek mythology)
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>then gaia was born
14:35<supermop_>yes, chaos is the primordial state before order was created
14:36<@planetmaker>hm... can an industry read the road bits of an adjacent tile?
14:36<@planetmaker>I only find that I can see "road yes/no" - but maybe I miss something
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think the road bits can be read
14:37<@planetmaker>I want to draw a gate where the road goes towards the industry tile :-)
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: instead of road bits, you need something like "road continuation info" (similar to rail stations)
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: makes it more flexible wrt. bridge heads, road stations, depots, "traffic objects", ...
14:39<@planetmaker>yes, that would suit better
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>also, you might want to draw a gate for rails as well ;)
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>for future flexibility, "road continuation info" may be a list of lanes with an offset and a direction
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>by default, offsets might be 6 and 10. in/out depending on road side
14:42<@planetmaker>hm... interesting, yes :-)
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14:49<Eddi|zuHause>if you limit number of lanes to 4, you could bitstuff that into a dword (4 bit offset (0-15) and 3 bit direction (DIR_N..DIR_NW))
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>leaves 1 bit for used/unused
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14:53<Hirundo>Yexo: The guy in the NML topic complained that his depot-only grf didn't work
14:54<Hirundo>As far as I've been able to see, depots are the only case where having the 'required' stuff is a prerequisite
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15:02<Hirundo>Which gave the confusing result that his grf only worked if loaded after a grf that re-defined "RAIL" itself (eg swedishrails)
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15:24<perk11>http://wiki.openttd.org/Image:Escapedepot.png why doesn't this combination seem to work anymore in 1.1.2?
15:24<perk11>It used to work in previous versions
15:26<@Terkhen>what does it do now and what did it before?
15:26<+glx>exit signals without entry is strange
15:26<perk11>the train went to the depot when all the paths are full
15:27<perk11>and now they just choose the nearest path
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15:30<perk11>It worked maybe because there was a combo signal in the depot
15:31<+michi_cc>My guess: You have pf.yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol set to false (the default since 1.1 or maybe 1.0, not sure) while the example assumes a value of true. There are a lot more situations where false makes more sense than those few that only work with true, which is why it was changed.
15:31<perk11>ok
15:31<perk11>I'll check it
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>i think there are variants of overflow depots that work without "eol" being set to true
15:33<perk11>michi_cc: you are right
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>basically you need to make sure that firstred_exit_penalty is larger than the depot penalty
15:34<perk11>Eddi|zuHause: maybe someone will add one of those to the wiki?
15:34<perk11>Instead of that one
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>i am pretty sure i have seen it somewhere
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>perk11: the wiki page should rather more clearly say that this value has to be said
15:35<perk11>Eddi|zuHause: ok
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15:40<Hirundo>frosch123: Would this diff make sense: http://pastebin.com/xpPxjSZ9 ?
15:42<frosch123>what shall it do?
15:43<frosch123>ah, it allows replacing the depot without the tracks, right?
15:44<frosch123>is this the only place? what about the gui?
15:45<frosch123>i.e. the orientation picker
15:45<Hirundo>The GUI sprite selection is not so picky
15:45<Hirundo>either you replace or do not replace all sprites
15:46<frosch123>i mean the orientation picker, not the toolbar
15:48<frosch123>DrawTrainDepotSprite() needs the same change
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15:48<xahodo>Hello
15:48<Hirundo>indeed
15:48<Hirundo>can't test right now as my just-compiled OpenTTD crashes on startup
15:50<Hirundo>And now I did *something* that made MSVC think it needs a full recompile *argh*
15:51<@planetmaker>string change?
15:51<Hirundo>string change doesn't rebuild blitters/drivers :S probably touched some config while messing with my repo
15:53<xahodo>Which advanced setting regulates how long trains wait to find a path past a signal?
15:53<xahodo>I've got trains waiting on a busy peace of track while a continued path is available.
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>they calculate which path is the shortest and then wait until that exact path gets free. if an actually free path is longer, they never take that
16:04<xahodo>problem is, they wait for the free route, even though they can already take it for some time.
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16:05<xahodo>it takes them about a second to realize they can move on.
16:05*planetmaker senses again a discussion about "this train should go here or there" without savegame or least a screenshot
16:05<xahodo>no
16:06*xahodo foobared some patch setting, wonders which
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>xahodo: try the path backoff interval
16:07*xahodo hugs Eddi|zuHause
16:07<xahodo>THANKS
16:08<Hirundo>frosch123: New diff, this time tested beyond compilation: http://pastebin.com/A6cmbkL6
16:09<Hirundo>AFAIK, all other non-required stuff (catenary, gui) works the same
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16:20<xahodo>Thanks for the help Eddi|zuHause, but it turned out to be pf.wait_oneway_signal
16:20<xahodo>I reduced its value to 2
16:22<xahodo>errr... I also reduced pf.path_backoff_interval to 1 at first. but the latter setting did the trick.
16:24<Wolf01>'night
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16:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22853 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_tile.hpp: -Doc: Add a missing bit of AI documentation.
16:33<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22854 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Change: [NewGRF] Allow replacing depot sprites without having to provide rail overlays. (Hirundo)
16:34<Hirundo>Thanks frosch123 :)
16:34<frosch123>thanks as well :)
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16:40<@planetmaker>great :-)
16:40<supermop__>wait what?
16:43<frosch123>night
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16:45<supermop__>what happened?
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>two people thanked each other and you missed the point.
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16:47<totot>hey
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16:56<pjpe>oh planetmaker
16:56<pjpe>how did you get liblzma on os x
16:57<@planetmaker>sudo port install lzma
16:57<pjpe>macports?
16:57<@planetmaker>yup
16:57<pjpe>i tried brew install lama and opened doesn't recognize it
16:57<pjpe>lzma
16:57<@planetmaker>brew?
16:57<@planetmaker>omg
16:57<@planetmaker>everytime I looked at their pages I was like "wth?!"
16:58<@planetmaker>if people follow their advice they're on the path to sudo rm -rf /
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17:02<@planetmaker>basically you'll have to teach the system to look for the header files and libaries in the proper paths, though
17:05<@planetmaker>and... the proper package name is liblzma of course
17:05<@planetmaker>also on macports
17:05<@planetmaker>but I guess the wiki describes it
17:05<pjpe>brew only has one called lzma
17:06<@planetmaker>you need not the archiver but the development libraries and headers
17:06<@planetmaker>macports has both, lzma and liblzma
17:08<pjpe>now why does make run-prof profile right on ubuntu but not on os x
17:08<pjpe>wth
17:09<@planetmaker>osx is a bsd, not a linux ;-)
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17:15<__ln__>is there any unit of length that cannot be converted to metres by multiplying with a constant?
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17:19<@Terkhen>good night
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: you mean like a logarithmic scale?
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17:32<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: that, and/or zero has an offset.
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17:33<Eddi|zuHause>(off the top of my head) the only units which have an offset are for temperature and pressure
17:34<__ln__>how boring
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>(pressure used to be given in "Atmosphärenüberdruck" (atü) with the offset 1 bar = 0 atü)
17:41<@planetmaker>energy has an arbitrary offset
17:41<@planetmaker>and needs gauging
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>energy, similar to distance, is a unit of differences, the offset is irrelevant there
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>basically all vectorial units have that
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>it's the very nature of a vector
17:47<@planetmaker>energy is a scalar, not a vector
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>depends on what you define as a vector ;)
17:48<@planetmaker>not really. Energy is never a vector
17:48<@planetmaker>you may calculate with the energy-momentum tensor. But that's a matrix rather
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>a vector is a member of a set that has operations vector+vector and scalar*vector defined. clearly energy has that ;)
17:49<@planetmaker>no. As there's no vector
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>but in comparison, temperature+temperature or pressure+pressure doesn't make a lot of sense
17:50<@planetmaker>with your definition of vector "1" is also a vector
17:50<@planetmaker>which is ... not true according to the usual algebra
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>yes, 1 (of set R) is a member of the vector-space R^1
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>obviously, any field is in itself also a vector-space
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>it's perfectly legal for "1" to be both scalar and vector at the same time ;)
17:53<@planetmaker>and it's similarily pointless
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>only if you have no clue of maths ;)
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17:55<@planetmaker>sure. Good that you know then how to treat energy as a "vector". Which is physically nonsense
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>you'll have to do away with the interpretation that "vector" is "something like a direction"
17:57<@planetmaker>you're forgetting that you argue physics - where energy is not useful to treat as vector
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17:58<@planetmaker>thus you have to use actually something more than mathematical deduction ab initio
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>no, i forgot that i was discussing with a physicist :)
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>(and didn't make my nomenclature clear in the beginning)
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>let's just conclude that your idea of "vector" and my idea of "vector" don't quite match
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>and thus i meant something different than you understood
18:00<@planetmaker>I know well the mathematical definition of vector. It simply does not apply to the context you used it
18:01<@planetmaker>saying a scalar quantity is a vector may be mathematically correct - but is physically nonsense
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>what is the core of a vector (in my sense above) was that there is no defined "origin"
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>what may make this distinction clear is the concept of time. there is a defined origin called "birth of christ" (even if that does not really match the actual event). and there are absolute times (like 29.8.2006 0:07) and relative times (2 minutes 3 seconds)
18:07<Eddi|zuHause>the relative times are "vectors" in the mathematical sense
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>in the sense that you can freely add and substract them, or scale them
18:08<Eddi|zuHause>but you cannot add absolute times, or scale them
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>(you can substract absolute times, and get a relative time, though)
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>(mathematically, the combination of absolute and relative times is an affine space)
18:10*__ln__ 's Theorem: a vector is a more or less straight line drawn on paper, with an arrow in one end
18:10<@planetmaker>with that definition everything is a vector
18:11<@planetmaker>and... time is actually one of the worst things to speak of when using "absolute" in the same sentence
18:11<@planetmaker>your GPS would fail, if there was anywhere an absolute time
18:13<@planetmaker>temperature has an absolute zero, though
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>ok, when you add the relativistic element, things get complicated :p
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the same argument holds with absolute temperatures and temperature-differences as well
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18:15<@planetmaker>you can't "add" temperature
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but i can add temperature-differences
18:16<@planetmaker>neither.
18:16<@planetmaker>You can add or remove energy
18:16<@planetmaker>which may or may not result in a temperature change
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>that is technical blah :)
18:17<@planetmaker>not at all
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18:17<@planetmaker>without this distinction time direction would be undefined as it defines entropy
18:17<@planetmaker>(around a few corners at least ;-) )
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>in a simplified temperature-model, every material has a caloric constant, which directly scales an energy into a temperature difference
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>this means, temperature-differences and energy are isomorphic vector spaces
18:19<@planetmaker>this model is invalid if you want to include the zero-point
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>(if you leave out all the crazy freezing stuff)
18:19<@planetmaker>for ALL materials
18:19<@planetmaker>even without phase transitions
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, a temperature model as simplified as this would have no absolute zero, since that cannot happen in a vector space :)
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>(vector spaces must be defined over a field, which means it must be "open")
18:22<@planetmaker>a vector space has a well-defined 0 for the add operation
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but that is not the same as an "absolute 0"
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>it also has nothing to do with an "origin"
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the "0" you think of would be a "0 temperature-difference", not a "absolute 0 temperature"
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>confusing the two clearly demonstrates that you still have not understood my point
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18:26<@planetmaker>so you argue physics, throw away the physical boundaries, simplify to an unphysical, unbound vector space and I have mis-understood your point?
18:27<@planetmaker>I'd rather argue you're confusing some things ;-)
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>clearly, as the point was to throw away all the physical nonsense and discuss the underlying mathematical concept
18:28<@planetmaker>that was not what we started discussing nor I ever discussed
18:29<@planetmaker>the starting point was your statement that energy is a vector. Which remains of dubious quality
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>what i meant to explain was that my concept of "vector" as used in the initial sentence was "anything that can reasonably be described as the difference of two absolute values"
18:30<@planetmaker>well. Energy already is not an absolute value as it's subject to the gauge invariance
18:31<@planetmaker>(though by all practical terms, the offset can usually be set to 0)
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 29 00:00:18 2011