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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-02

---Logopened Fri Sep 02 00:00:28 2011
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02:09<__ln__>buenos días señores pasajeros
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03:39<BartHoning>If I use nmlc to create my own grf, all goes well. Untill I try to create a helicopter: Unknown identifier 'AIRCRAFT_TYPE_SMALL'. Wiki tells:
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03:44<BartHoning>has anyone tried creating a helicopter? setting just 'is_helicopter' to 'AIRCRAFT_TYPE_HELICOPTER does not work: it still seems to be a plane..
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03:46<BartHoning>and as soon as I set 'is_large' to AIRCRAFT_TYPE_SMALL, nmlc complains about not knowing AIRCRAFT_TYPE_SMALL.... ?
03:49<planetmaker>it is ...PORT_...
03:50<planetmaker>do you have the code?
03:51<BartHoning> is_helicopter: AIRCRAFT_TYPE_HELICOPTER;
03:51<BartHoning> is_large: AIRCRAFT_TYPE_SMALL;
03:51<planetmaker>i.e. a file I could try compile to a grf?
03:51<BartHoning>does not compile Unknown identifier 'AIRCRAFT_TYPE_SMALL'
03:52<planetmaker>and which NML version do you use?
03:53<BartHoning>r1653 (pil 1.1.7, ply 3.4)
03:53<BartHoning>I know the grf is basically allright, it flies perfectly as a plane
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04:00<planetmaker>so... do you now expect me to write my own plane or do you make it easy for me to test and give me yours?
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04:07<BartHoning>There is a zip with the example I followed from the wiki in it. Graphics are not done at all etc.
04:10<BartHoning>I adjusted it, to create a plane, that worked fine (flying truck, lol) but since I am trying to create a zep, I thought it would be better to see it as a helicopter.
04:10<planetmaker>AIRCRAFT_size_SMALL instead of _type_
04:11<BartHoning>ah, ok, ill try that..
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04:15<planetmaker>in caps, though
04:17<BartHoning>Yes, it does compile allright, but the new version still behaves like a normal airplane?
04:18<BartHoning>and not like a helicopter? Hmmm..
04:18<planetmaker>hm... still as plane
04:19<planetmaker>right. It's an NML bug. Constants for is_helicopter are swapped
04:19<planetmaker>for now use 0 as property value
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04:23<planetmaker>if you use NML from a repository, it's fixed now, BartHoning
04:24<planetmaker>alternatively, update NML in about 8 hours
04:25<BartHoning>it works fine as a helicopter now :)
04:26<BartHoning>is there any way to remove the spinning-rotor effect? (since I am trying to create a blimp)
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04:37<planetmaker>I don't find anything obvious... though there surely is
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04:46<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:13<TheHog>Terkhen, planetmaker: could you please take a look at my 2-feeder patch again?
05:14<TheHog>I hope I can convince you both to accept and commit the patch.. Yexo's standpoint is clear
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05:15<TheHog>the latest patch only kicks in if the vehicle is 'transfering && loading' at a station.. the config which currently isn't used because of the current 2-way feeding 'bug'
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05:28<@Terkhen>I don't get the code, I never checked that part in detail
05:29<@Terkhen>what does it do? it uses the vehicle order list to decide if cargo can be picked or not?
05:31<TheHog>the cargo itselves decided if it is allowed to be loaded on the vehicle based uppon the order list of the vehicle
05:31<TheHog>only if the vehicle is transfering and loading at the current station
05:32<TheHog>if the cargo was just loaded at a station from the order list, or it original from such station,.. then it is not loaded
05:34<TheHog>Yexo's standpoint is that it does not fix all situations and that is true, however it fixes most of all feeding cases so I would like to see it committed
05:34<TheHog>to fix it all we need cargodst
05:35<planetmaker>IMHO Yexo's argument is quite valid. Fixing it for some but not for all cases will only make solutions like cargod*st more difficult
05:35<@Terkhen>yes, I said that it would conflict with future destination patches which also fix the issue
05:35<planetmaker>ok, maybe you did :-)
05:35<@Terkhen>you might want to ask michi_cc or fonsinchen about this
05:36<TheHog>why them?
05:36<planetmaker>they write the cargod*st patches
05:36<@Terkhen>michi_cc develops YACD, fonsinchen develops cargodist
05:37<TheHog>but cargodist is so much different than the original game
05:37<TheHog>this patch is only a fix for a often reported bug
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05:38<TheHog>someone playing with cargodist will need to learn how to play it all over again
05:38<planetmaker>it would just move the bug reports to the left-out edge cases
05:40<TheHog>how far is cargodist from finished?
05:41<@Terkhen>it is possible that the code of a future destination code committed to trunk can be used to fix this issue in normal games too, but the commit of your code means that any future destination patch must either remove the code, work around it or use it even if it is not ideal
05:42<@Terkhen>or "do not commit something that will be changed or removed in the future"
05:43<TheHog>ok.. then hopefully fonsinchen has time to talk with me about this
05:43<TheHog>or michi_cc
05:44<TheHog>maybe we can merge both with my patch so they don't conflict
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>well, technically, either of these patches have the ability to disable the destinations, so the transfer problem would still exist then
05:48<TheHog>then my patch would help in that case also I think..
05:49<TheHog>let me study the yacd and cargodst code tonight and I hope I can contact michi_cc and fonsinchen soon
05:49<@Terkhen>in that case... do we have two separate methods or do we try to adapt the code of the destination patch to the "no destination" case?
05:51<TheHog>I think we should adapt the code..
05:52<TheHog>it's not that complex so I guess it is easily merged with the cargdst and yacd code in the 'no destination' case
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06:16<planetmaker>which window has a horizontal scrollbar?
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06:33<Eddi|zuHause>the depot?
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>the train list?
06:38<peter1138>1138 o'clock!
06:38<SpComb>so it is
06:38<SpComb>you have your clock right for once
06:39<SpComb>wait what, no, it's 1338 o'clock, nevermind
06:39<SpComb>must leave for lunch -->
06:44<peter1138>you smell
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08:24<krinn>hi all
08:24<krinn>i have a "problem" with a bridge
08:25<krinn>if the owner is a companyID and the company is dead, owner==-1 but still altering the bridge with AIBuild.BuildBridge return a ERR_OWNED_BY_ANOTHER_COMPANY
08:25<krinn>while a town bridge also return own==-1 but it work on this one
08:26<krinn>it's also strange because when company is dead && bridge.owner==-1 i cannot change the bridge but the game allow me to destroy the bridge
08:26<krinn>i would have expect: when ==-1 you can destroy or rebuild over it
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably a bug... somewhere checking OWNER_TOWN and OWNER_NONE is inconsistent
08:28<krinn>kinda weird as it looks like for openttd the companyID is now dead and it's ok to destroy it, but when trying to rebuild it, openttd remind the old companyID is the owner and refuse
08:40<krinn>i found the bad one:
08:41<krinn> static bool BuildBridge(AIVehicle::VehicleType vehicle_type, BridgeID bridge_id, TileIndex start, TileIndex end);
08:41<krinn> -> * @exception AIError::ERR_OWNED_BY_ANOTHER_COMPANY
08:41<krinn>this one fail
08:41<Yexo>you can overbuild bridges if the owner is either your own company or a town.
08:41<Yexo>note that OWNER_TOWN is different from OWNER_NONE
08:41<krinn>but not if noone own it ?
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>try this:
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: yes, but it's inconsistent
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: if you can remove it and build a new bridge, you should be able to convert one as well
08:42<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: I completely agree with you that the current behavior is buggy
08:43<Yexo>your patch looks good at first sight, just haven't checked it enough
08:43<krinn>it's just i have no way to see that bridge is own by someone, as AITile.GetOwner return -1 for both case (town/dead company)
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>maybe this is better:
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>(i hope that it does what i think it does, i haven't tested it either
08:45<krinn>what are value for OWNER_TOWN & OWNER_NONE ?
08:45<krinn>because as-is your patch might attrib the new bridge to me, while for now
08:45<krinn>if the bridge is to a town, he will be upgrade but still the town will own it
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that would still be the case
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>src/company_type.h: OWNER_TOWN = 0x0F, ///< A town owns the tile, or a town is expanding
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>src/company_type.h: OWNER_NONE = 0x10, ///< The tile has no ownership
08:47<krinn>looks even more logic so: i upgrade a bridge own by noone, so the result will be mine
08:47<krinn>lol can't believe how fast you fix that one Eddi|zuHause :)
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>well it _is_ still untested...
08:48<krinn>maybe, but the change appears really clear
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>if you can't express a feature in <10 lines, it might not be the right way to do it :)
08:53<krinn>it's funny i never saw it, but even humans are affect so :)
08:54<krinn>never saw it while playing (i must use too much the buldozer)
08:54<Yexo>krinn / eddi: if nobody does it before me I'll properly test and commit that fix tonight
08:54<Yexo>right now I'm too busy with the new codecup competition
08:55<krinn>test is easy, run an ai let it build a road bridge, restart the ai and as human try to rebuild a bridge over it
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: i am too busy preparing for my mother's birthday, so i probably won't test it...
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09:03<krinn>i'm building openttd but i have 1.1.1 source only, will answer if it work for that version (as it should)
09:13<krinn>:P cannot build it, i should use the real source, these one are alter by the gentoo installer
09:13<krinn>sorry can't test so
09:14<Ammler>krinn: use source with vcs
09:25<krinn>ok it work with 1.1.2 (i donwload the 1.1.2 source)
09:26<krinn>i've test it doesn't work before reloading the ai (while the ai still own it & is a valid company)
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09:26<krinn>i'm also now the new owner of the bridge
09:26<krinn>all fine Eddi|zuHause :)
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09:39<krinn>hi Belugas
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09:40<@Belugas>sir krinn :)
09:41<krinn>sir Belugas :)
09:50<krinn>openttd auto remove 25£ to force company goes bankrupt at start or i must dig out where i lost that money ?
09:50<krinn>(i mean with loan set to 0)
09:50<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, there's a fixed amount of money you lose anyway
09:51<krinn>overtime or just at start ?
09:51<Yexo>every year
09:52<krinn>rats traders!
09:52<Yexo>loan and bonuses for the management :p
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11:12<krinn>when creating a wagon in a depot, first one i get a valid vehicleID for it, but next ones, it fail for a reason i don't get, the wagons are create, just the AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle answer then false, got a clue?
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11:42<krinn>there something really wrong with that : if (!AIObject::DoCommand(depot, engine_id, 0, ::GetCmdBuildVeh(type), NULL, &AIInstance::DoCommandReturnVehicleID)) return VEHICLE_INVALID;
11:43<krinn>doc says to check the return value againt AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle, for first one it work, but others ones it fail, they get attach to the first one and i suppose the return value is then the uint of the wagon and not the vehicleID
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11:50<Eddi|zuHause>sorry, that one is outside my area of expertise
11:53<krinn>hard to handle just to build some wagons :)
11:54<Yexo>krinn: if you build a wagon two things can happen:
11:54<Yexo>1) There is only a single engine (possible with wagons attached) in the depot, your new wagon will be automatically attached to this engine. The returned VehicleID is invalid for your AI
11:55<Yexo>2) There are either no or multiple engines. Your new wagon will be in a new chain. The returned VehicleID is valid
11:55<krinn>well, what i see here is
11:56<krinn>1) i have train with 1 wagon but new wagons aren't attach to it
11:56<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22868 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Change: Resize the company league window according to the company icon's size
11:56<Yexo>are you using any newgrfs? They might block attaching new wagons
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>the what window?
11:56<krinn>2) now that a new wagon is there, the AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle fail because i no more get a vehicleID but i think the wagon number
11:56<Yexo>in that case you could end up in situation 2), in that case you should get a valid VehicleID as return value
11:56<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: current ranking
11:56<krinn>i do use them yexo, but i test my wagon and all is fine for that
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>guess i have not looked at that in ages...
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>it's kinda boring when there is only one company
11:57<Yexo>krinn: I don't understand your actual problem then
11:58<krinn>that next wagon create report failure because i get an invalid vehicleID
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>i think you have a misconception about what the return value means
11:59<krinn>first one == validVehicleID next ones = invalidVehicleID (but i have some id return that isn't the value of an invalid vehicle ID, so i suppose some internal id for the wagon)
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11:59<andythenorth>George: hi hi
11:59<Yexo>the value you get is a VehicleID as used internally by the game
11:59<Yexo>however AIs are restricted in which IDs are valid for them
11:59<Yexo>only the ID of the first part of a train is considered valid for AIs
12:00<Yexo>but next ones are attached to your first one, right?
12:00<krinn>so this is bad : The VehicleID of the new vehicle, or an invalid VehicleID when it failed. Check the return value using IsValidVehicle
12:00<Yexo>if so, you can use the VehicleID of the first part to access the others
12:01<Yexo>yes, that's bad
12:01<andythenorth>@seen George
12:01<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: George was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 8 hours, 28 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <George> I thought action 7 should be used :(
12:02<krinn>hmmm, the good check is check if return ID == VEHICLE_INVALID
12:02<krinn>if not, it's valid
12:05<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22869 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Codechange: Use the same constant to set the minimum height of all widgets in the windows title bar
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12:05<krinn>i see AIVehicle::VEHICLE_INVALID is define, will check it to see
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12:12<George>andythenorth> @seen George. Yes?
12:12<andythenorth>for the mine
12:12<andythenorth>I already have front loader / excavator
12:12<andythenorth>not sure if they are what you need
12:12<andythenorth>they are in ISR stations
12:13<George>In operating?
12:13<andythenorth>I'll make a screenshot
12:13<George>I asked about one that is in operation
12:13<andythenorth>the front loader is animated in ISR
12:14<George>it has / direction and faced to player AFAIR
12:15<krinn>quite hard as i don't know the vehicleID the wagon is then attach to
12:16<andythenorth>there is also \ direction
12:16<George>And I need something to operate the rock
12:16<George>That mean it has to be faced FROM the player
12:17<andythenorth>this is a log loader
12:17<andythenorth>it needs forks swapping to bucket
12:17<andythenorth>it's not animated
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12:18<Yexo>krinn: what would you think about a change to OpenTTD so newly build rail wagons are never attached to anything?
12:18<Yexo>that means you'll always get a valid VehicleID as return value
12:18<krinn>it would really help
12:18<andythenorth>George: that one *is* layered psd with each part on a layer
12:18<krinn>or gave us the internal wagon id
12:18<andythenorth>I'll send you psd
12:19<Yexo>I'd rather not do that, since that will complicate the rest of the API
12:19<krinn>but it's hard to solve as-is right now
12:19<krinn>if i want create 1 wagon, refit it
12:20<krinn>how can i know where is my wagon ?
12:20<George>andythenorth: this is a log loader. It does not look like a mine excavator :( It is small
12:20<krinn>it might get attach to an engine that is there, might be attach to aother previous wagon i create...
12:21<krinn>i could of course seek out every vehicleID i found in that depot, this still won't tell me where my wagon is gone :)
12:21<George>andythenorth: I'll send you psd Thank you
12:21<andythenorth>George: you need a big face shovel or such?
12:22<krinn>if you have 3 vehicle: build a wagon -> where is the wagon ? for now the solve would be check all vehicleID in the depot and record their length, compare them, bigger one got the wagon, and then lol assume last wagon is the newest one
12:22<George>andythenorth: Yes
12:22<krinn>then detach it, refit it, and attach it to the good vehicle i wish it to be
12:23<krinn>not really a "simple" way to just build a new wagon in a depot :P
12:24<Yexo>I know, hence my proposal to change the behavior
12:24<krinn>i agree, new engine should always get a new vehicleID
12:24<andythenorth>George: if it was a lot bigger it might be too big?
12:24<Yexo>I'm already convinced it should be changed somehow, just busy with something else right now
12:24<krinn>and let the ai attach it where it wish
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12:26<George>I didn't say it shoul be much bigger. I said it should look bigger to fit with your trucks
12:27<andythenorth>sometimes it's possible to scale up with pixel art
12:27*andythenorth will try
12:29<andythenorth>George: does it *need* to be animated? (and if so would you draw the needed frames)?
12:29<krinn>Yexo, the most simpler solve would be having a function that gave the vehicleID a UnitNumber is attach to
12:29<andythenorth>it scales up ok to 130%
12:30<andythenorth>I can clean up some pixels by hand
12:30<krinn>like this one, but invert :
12:30<Yexo>you're misunderstanding that function
12:30<krinn>that one gave the interal openttd id of an engine in a vehicle no ?
12:30<George>andythenorth: Yes, it would be nice to have it animated.
12:31<Yexo>a unit number is just an increasing number that is used to generate the "Train #<num>" numbers
12:31<Yexo>it's not used anywhere by the game engine
12:31<George>andythenorth: No, I did't plan to draw animation stages myself
12:31<krinn>ah ok
12:31<Yexo>the only id used is the VehicleID
12:31<Yexo>and you already get the proper VehicleID, only AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle() limits the IDs that you can use
12:32<Yexo>the VehicleID of a wagon that is attached to an engine for example is invalid for your AI due to AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle
12:32<Yexo>for OpenTTD internal use that VehicleID is still used and valid
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12:32<Yexo>but extending the IDs that AIVehicle::IsValidVehicle() allows leads to other problems, so that's not a good solution
12:32<andythenorth>George: you like the 130% version?
12:32<krinn>if we could have a function that return then the AI version vehicleID of an attach openttd internal vehicleID, problem solve
12:33<George>andythenorth: Yes, 150% increaase would fit well. Just place your truck nearby to see, if it fits as truck loader
12:33<Yexo>krinn: either you don't want to get it or I'm not explaining it well. Either way I've already given the proper solution twice
12:33*Yexo is really gone now
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12:34<andythenorth>George: this is 130% with truck
12:35<George>Yes, that is good
12:36<andythenorth>I'll clean it up
12:37<George>I though about something like this
12:38<andythenorth>the machine, or the angle?
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12:42<George>the machine
12:50<andythenorth>George: give me ~15 mins :)
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12:58<andythenorth>not my best art ever, but it might be enough?
12:58<@Alberth>it's yours
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12:59<andythenorth>the machine is mine
12:59<andythenorth>the mine is george :)
12:59<andythenorth>the mine is not mine
12:59<@Alberth>nice mine, much more clear than a building over a hole in the ground :)
12:59<George>hm. It does not look like
13:00<planetmaker>yep, the mine is a very nice one
13:00<@Alberth>it should have an animation where a part gets blown up :p
13:01<andythenorth>George: swap the yellow to orange?
13:01<George>I do not think the colour is wrong, but the proportions. The cabin looks too large
13:01<andythenorth>I'll reduce it
13:02<George>also the arm looks like ... it is in the air
13:03<George>it does not look like a construction, but like ... parts
13:04<andythenorth>smaller cabin
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13:12<George>it still looks unbalanced
13:12<George>Sorry, I have to go
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13:15<andythenorth>George: I'll pm
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13:34<andythenorth>how do I grep for recently created files?
13:35<Ammler>andythenorth: find?
13:35<Ammler>or use hg
13:35<@Alberth>-ctime actually
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13:36<andythenorth>I am trying to figure out why my mac just played a camera sound three times
13:36<andythenorth>as though taking pictures
13:36*andythenorth wonders if he has malware
13:36<krinn>ls -lt
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13:37<planetmaker>wrong window, krinn :-P
13:38<@Alberth>find / -mtime 1 -print although / as starting point may be a bit too much
13:38<krinn>not really planetmaker ls -lt show files by time :p
13:38<@Alberth>(sorry about confusing you with -ctime)
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>i always use -trl, what use is -tl without r?
13:39<andythenorth>Alberth: / is the only valid option :P
13:39<@Alberth>same as you do with -r if you don't have sub-directories :)
13:39<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, i think the order
13:39<andythenorth>for my purpose
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>and -mtime +1 or so
13:39<planetmaker>ls -lt | head or | less
13:39<krinn>or more like Alberth says recurse :)
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>there's some weird stuff with "exactly 1", "at least 1" or "at most 1"
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>find is weird...
13:40<@Alberth>andythenorth: hmm, maybe -1
13:40<andythenorth>this may take some time :P
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>i never remember which is which
13:40<@Alberth>- is less-than :)
13:41<@Alberth>andythenorth: check a leaf directory for the -ctime value
13:41<@Alberth>if you are unlucky you will just get files modified exactly 24 hours ago :p
13:41<andythenorth>or I just live with malware taking pictures of me stroking my chin :P
13:42<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: gaffer tape?
13:42<krinn>system may alter them itself, so don't rm -rf / if you see changes :)
13:42<andythenorth>wonder where it would post them too?
13:42<andythenorth>to /s
13:42<andythenorth>and why would malware play a sound effect? it's somewhat revealing
13:42<andythenorth>probably not malware :P
13:43<andythenorth>unless it's socially engineering me to ignore it
13:43<krinn>you'll discover spying user is not a malware for mac, it's a feature by apple :)
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>the bad thing is that this sounds actually plausible :p
13:44<krinn>one guy was doing that at an apple shop
13:44<krinn>taking pic of customers
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>the same thing would have been said about microsoft 15 years ago, if webcams were widespread back then
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22870 /trunk/src/lang/ (greek.txt portuguese.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: greek - 5 changes by kyrm
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 36 changes by Peymanpn
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>they had this story a few months back where they "caught" a laptop thief because the regular owner was able to log in and take photos
13:45<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, nearly, we would have more a gpf because of a bug in the spyware then
13:46<andythenorth>I am thinking of installing that software
13:46<Eddi|zuHause>and it was suspected that this was more of a marketing ploy...
13:46<andythenorth>you're talking about prey and other such
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>not remembering any names
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>long link is long
13:48<krinn>for Eddi|zuHause lazyness :)
13:48<andythenorth>how would you disguise the image file if you were writing malware?
13:48<andythenorth>system logs?
13:48<andythenorth>or hide in plain sight - in another folder full of jpg or such?
13:48<krinn>Eddi|zuHause, better use xchat, right click and open link, you're not really copy all links no?
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: no, i have a modern client that can open urls with a single click.
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>that is totally not the point
13:50*andythenorth can't be bothered to look in several thousand files for pictures of self :P
13:50*V453000 simply does not have pictures of self for sure
13:50<andythenorth>possibly you wouldn't save it, but mail it somewhere?
13:50<andythenorth>mail / upload
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14:01*planetmaker does have picture of V453000 :-P
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>same as all others who were at r20k
14:05<V453000>crap :D
14:11<planetmaker>hm... adding two tree sprite numbers doesn't give another tree sprite number ;-)
14:11<pjpe>who made the opengfx maglev station
14:11<pjpe>that is hands down the best looking station in the game
14:11<planetmaker>in case of doubt: zephyris
14:12<V453000>monorail is nicer :)
14:13<pjpe>no way
14:13<planetmaker>Foobar and zephyris
14:13<planetmaker>rail station is additionally also partially done by DanMacK
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14:39<Eddi|zuHause>btw, i learned yesterday that "hg outgoing default" makes me not type in the password, and setting "out = outgoing default" in the [alias]-section makes me save remembering the command
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14:45<andythenorth>3 tile locks are stupid
14:46<planetmaker>andythenorth: draw me different ones :-)
14:47<planetmaker>you need to use three tiles, but you can make it look differently
14:48<andythenorth>kind offer, but no gain :P
14:48<planetmaker>why no gain?
14:49<andythenorth>still 3 tiles
14:49<planetmaker>one tile?
14:50<planetmaker>hm... lock or dock?
14:50<planetmaker>On a 3 tile lock you can arbitrarily place things as you see fit
14:50<planetmaker>thus simulate anything between 0 and 3
14:50<andythenorth>locks should be 2 iles
14:50<andythenorth>tiles /s
14:51<@Alberth>1/2 at the first, 1 at the slope, and 1/2 at the end?
14:51<planetmaker>Well. Then draw it. Feasible
14:51<planetmaker>like what alberth said
14:52<andythenorth>still 3 tiles though :P
14:54*andythenorth considers using the truck-feeder method to defeat stupid station ratings
14:57<@Terkhen>you can also implement a custom rating callback that always gives you 100%
14:57<andythenorth>indeed :)
14:57<andythenorth>is that cheating though
14:58<@Terkhen>no, then it is a decision of the NewGRF set author :P
14:59<V453000>hmm :)
14:59<andythenorth>can I hide the rating :P
14:59<andythenorth>it annoys me
15:01<@Terkhen>why? I ignored it for years before I played online for the first time
15:01<@Terkhen>I ignored it as soon as it was higher than 70, of course :)
15:01<andythenorth>mine are mostly 'very poor'
15:02<planetmaker>you should use the 'full load' orders on primary industries
15:02<andythenorth>I do
15:02<planetmaker>it's even realistic ;-)
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15:02<planetmaker>then I don#t understand how you end up at 'very poor'
15:02<planetmaker>you use too few trains then
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>implement callback 145
15:03<andythenorth>more trains will make my 2-track railroad too busy
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you need to time it so your train arrives exactly when the other one leaves
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15:04<andythenorth>I know how to solve it :) I just don't want to play that way
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, then my previous comment applies :)
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15:04<Eddi|zuHause>you can make callback 145 always return 100%
15:05<andythenorth>and then industry will always distribute 100%?
15:05<planetmaker>or you devise a 'recession' economy
15:05<andythenorth>or remove supplies :P
15:06<andythenorth>it's a non-issue in default game - if ratings are low, production falls...
15:06<andythenorth>FIRS allows for this lazy play style
15:14<V453000>wait so you want to make station ratings high even when vehicles are not always in the station?
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15:15<andythenorth>good or bad?
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>at least for a time like 30 to 60 days, ratings should not drop below 50%
15:16<andythenorth>it's another reason why supplies might still be a misfeature :P
15:16<V453000>for lazy players?
15:16<andythenorth>not just lazy
15:16<andythenorth>different play style
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>you need to realize, V453000 is allergic to non-coop playstyles :p
15:17<andythenorth>with supplies, the need to maintain ratings is suppose to be gone
15:17<andythenorth>but it isn't
15:17<@Terkhen>it's a callback, you can do whatever you want with it
15:17<andythenorth>I know
15:17<andythenorth>but should I :P
15:17<planetmaker>for heaven's sake, then just remove supplies, call it default industries+ and we can stop having this discussion over and over and over and over and ...
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes, please
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>please please
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15:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: isn't it a standalone grf?
15:17<andythenorth>shouldn't be part of FIRS
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>it must be part of the grf providing the cargo?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>the callback is per-cargo
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>so you must know which industry set is loaded
15:18<andythenorth>so in FIRS
15:18<andythenorth>but locked to 100% is stupid?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>imho in FIRS, but with parameter
15:18<andythenorth>some other algorithm?
15:18<andythenorth>what's interesting?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>could use the parameter to select different algorithms
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>make the 100% first, and then we experiment with different algorithms
15:19<andythenorth>so I basically play NARS 2, US style railroading
15:19<andythenorth>long trains, not very fast, slow travel times
15:19<andythenorth>could be tweaked per cargo
15:19<andythenorth>so the bulk cargos are much less sensitive
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>primary cargos/secondary cargos/supplies?
15:20<andythenorth>pax, mail
15:20<V453000>or just throw FIRS away and come draw NUTS :D :P
15:20*andythenorth considers
15:20<andythenorth>FIRS *is* nearly done
15:20<andythenorth>apart from all the bits not done
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>the whole economies thing is not done :p
15:21<planetmaker>economies might be for > 1.0
15:21<andythenorth>improved ground-tiles-with-foundations isn't done
15:21<andythenorth>reworked supplies isn't done
15:21<andythenorth>randomised initial production isn't done
15:21<andythenorth>snow isn't finished
15:21<andythenorth>date-sensitive graphics aren't done
15:22<andythenorth>redrawing default industries isn't done (and may never be)
15:22<Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> make the 100% first, and then we experiment with different algorithms <- I already have a patch for that
15:23<Yexo>so feel free to suggest alternative algorithms I could implement
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15:24<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: something that is less sensitive to time intervals. 30 days: 70%, 60 days: 50%
15:25<andythenorth>Yexo: I'll happily test in my current game :P
15:25<andythenorth>I think what's going to happen is same outcome as if I just played properly....
15:25<andythenorth>I have to build a lot more trains
15:25<andythenorth>and a lot more track
15:27<andythenorth>Yexo: url for the patch? :D
15:28<frosch123>btw, is there a reason to include such features into firs? why no separate grf?
15:28<Yexo>frosch123: it's a cargo callback
15:28<Yexo>so if it's a separate grf it needs to be very careful to follow the firs cargo definitions, it must be loaded after firs and include the same cargo icons
15:29<andythenorth>on a similar note, having FISH adjust base water construction costs would be wrong?
15:29<frosch123>hmm, ok, i had the impression it was a generic callback :)
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: good idea, but have the parameter set to "default"
15:30<Yexo><Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: something that is less sensitive to time intervals. 30 days: 70%, 60 days: 50% <- you mean "Days since last cargo pickup"?
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: yes
15:31*andythenorth reads cb145 docs
15:31<Yexo>should it also effect "amount of cargo waiting"?
15:31<andythenorth>there should be some curve
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: maybe
15:31<andythenorth>a *lot* of cargo waiting is bad
15:31<andythenorth> might be an interesting positive feedback
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15:31<V453000>so a lot of waiting cargo is bad but you want to keep ratings for a longer time?
15:32<andythenorth>if >1000t is waiting, and rating plummets, not much more will be added to station
15:32<andythenorth>max speed and age are stupid in ottd
15:32<andythenorth>made sense in original game
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>so: <30days: 70%, <60days: 60%, >1000 units: -10%, >2000 units: -15%
15:32<andythenorth>statue bonus is stupid
15:32<Yexo>age of last vehicle can't be adjusted by the callback, nor can the statue bonus
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>statue bonus is kind of "this company is rich enough"
15:33<V453000>well, no matter how "stupid" the bonuses or whatnot are, I think they work just fine
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>imho it should not be the age of the vehicle, but the age of the model...
15:33<andythenorth>sd40-2 goes forever
15:33<andythenorth>biab even
15:33<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: currently it's <7.5 days: 51%, < 15days: 37%, <30days: 20%. Are you sure you want to increase the percentages to 70% and 60%?
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>"wow, this is the first transrapid" is certainly more attention attracting than "wow, this BR146 is brandnew, but it is the 500th of its kind"
15:34<Yexo>for amount we have now >1000: -14%, > 1500: -35%
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: yes, i want transfer-stations to keep ratings above 50% unless they are _really_ badly serviced
15:35<Yexo>and keep the positive bonusses for small amounts of cargo waiting?
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, haven't looked that much into the details
15:36<Yexo>and what about max speed of last vehicle?
15:36<Yexo>currently it's (Speed (km/h) - 85) / 4
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: that only makes sense for passengers
15:36<Yexo>so 0..17%
15:36<Yexo>ok, so set to fixed 17% bonus for other cargoes?
15:37<planetmaker>amount waiting is not the best proxy due to large transfer stations usually have high amounts waiting
15:37<planetmaker>even if turnover is really high
15:37<Yexo>planetmaker: but there is nothing better available
15:37<planetmaker>I've had stations which shipped 30k pax a month - but had very poor as cargo was constantly between 0 and 5000k waiting
15:37<planetmaker>changing daily
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>so >1000: -10%, >2000: -15%, >5000: -20%, >10000: -30%
15:38<planetmaker>better proxy would be waiting / monthly turnover
15:39<planetmaker>or something along that
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, but that needs openttd patches
15:39<planetmaker>yes :-P
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>a) logging that value, b) making it available to the newgrf
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>c) multiple related objects, so you have access to both the station and the vehicle
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>"özil vs. ösis"
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16:00<andythenorth>patch for station tiles that can boost ratings :P
16:01<andythenorth>yexo - with your 100% patch, it will take time for station rating to increase from current levels?
16:03<Yexo>and you need to enable the setting first, it's disabled by default
16:04<andythenorth>and restart ottd...
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>why that?
16:07<andythenorth>action 14 is cached
16:07<andythenorth>code changes to parameters don't show up without a restart
16:07<andythenorth>I now have insane amounts of cargo available
16:08*andythenorth builds more trains :P
16:08<+tokai>Did anyone ever thought about allowing terra forming (lowering/raising land) when there are tracks on top already? :) Always a bit annoying to have to demolish the tracks first when one wants to improve some bits. :)
16:08<Eddi|zuHause>tokai: are you playing a version from 5 years ago?
16:09<+tokai>Nope. Just downloaded a brand new version. (well... didn't played for a while.. perhaps a year or two :)
16:09<+tokai>Some stuff is a bit confusing right now (not as it used to be ;)
16:10<+tokai>Fast forward seems to be a bit broken. At least its speed up is hardly noticeable. (Max OS X version here)
16:11<Yexo>Eddi|zuHause / andythenorth: new diff
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>that depends kinda on the save game used
16:11<Yexo> <_ compiled grf
16:11<Yexo>this implements eddi's proposed values approximately
16:11<andythenorth>tokai: on OS X ffwd is highly variable
16:11<andythenorth>depends on your hardware, map size, number of vehicles etc
16:12<andythenorth>the 100% patch *is* a bit insane
16:12<andythenorth>will good station ratings also affect LA rating?
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>LA only consideres "service within last 20 days"
16:13<Yexo>last 50 days
16:13<+tokai>andythenorth: I know how it used to be on MorphOS at least. It was like "whooooosh". Now I only get like a 2% increase or such. Just a very basic map and a few busses. Nothing special at least. :) Also CPU usage isn't maxing out. Perhaps screen refresh is limiting factor here.
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>where "service" means "at least 1 unit loaded or unloaded"
16:14<Yexo>it's actually last 20 2.5-day cycles
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: ah, that explains this :)
16:15<Yexo>yes, the wiki (and as such several forum posts) have been spreading wrong information about that for a long time
16:15<andythenorth>that's a common pattern :P
16:15<andythenorth>e.g. game lighting direction, town effect of goods etc
16:16<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22872 /trunk/src/bmp.cpp: -Fix [FS#4746]: Improve handling of slightly invalid BMP files using the under-specified RLE compression. Improve coding style while at it as well. (Based on patch by monoid)
16:16<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22873 /trunk/src/ (heightmap.cpp lang/english.txt spriteloader/png.cpp): -Fix [FS#4747]: Validate image dimensions before loading. (Based on patch by monoid)
16:16<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22871 /trunk/src/bmp.cpp: -Fix [FS#4746]: Perform stricter checks on RLE compressed BMP images. (monoid)
16:16<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22874 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#4747]: Check size of various buffers before allocation. (monoid)
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>"under-specified" is a new euphemism for "buggy"?
16:17*andythenorth considers replacing all railroads with canals to handle insane amounts of cargo from ratings patch :)
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16:18<+tokai>Eddi|zuHause: do I need to enable some advanced option to make it work. I don't see/ find it. :)
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>tokai: yes, under construction: allow landscaping under buildings, etc.
16:21*andythenorth considers reducing freight weight multiplier
16:21<+tokai>It's actually enabled already, but it still complains that I must remove the railroad track first.
16:22<Yexo>you want to terraform under railroad track? That's currently not possible, there is simply no option for that
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: that has been working for years
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16:23<Yexo>well, as long as the height of the tracks doesn't change, yes
16:24<Yexo>tokai: is "Allow building on slopes and coasts" enabled?
16:25<+tokai>Well.. I want to change the track height in one go... that'S what I meant.. e.g. you have your tracks over a small bump.. then I want to lower the bump and the track should adjust.
16:25<Yexo>there is no option to allow that currently
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>ah, then i have misunderstood you
16:26*planetmaker wonders why that might be needed
16:26<planetmaker>and what realism-people would think of it ;-)
16:28*andythenorth is pleased with the patch by yexo :)
16:28<andythenorth>lots of cargo, long trains, freight weight = 3
16:29<Yexo>which setting are you using? eddi's algorithm or 100%?
16:30<andythenorth>seems to work so far
16:30<andythenorth>the 100% was a bit insane
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>the 100% could be compensated with lower initial production
16:30<andythenorth>maybe time to branch FIRS 0.7.0 and commit this to trunk FIRS?
16:32<Yexo>sure, shall I commit?
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>"Gerard Depardieu releases video showing him as Obelix in an airplane, with a certain craving"
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16:54<CIA-2>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22875 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Add some asserts and checks to better prevent overflow of the argument to malloc. (monoid)
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17:32<+tokai>it seems hiding the OpenTTD window speeds up fast forward on Mac OS X (CPU usage goes up too, then). As I suspected the screen refresh is the limiting factor (have similar effects an emulator). :)
17:36<appe>i wish to drag a train track trough a full 2024 map
17:36<JVassie>1024 0r 2048
17:36<planetmaker>get a bigger screen
17:36<appe>is there a faster way then just drag and drop?
17:36<appe>ah, sorry. 2024.
17:36<JVassie>zoom out?
17:37<@Terkhen>appe: open a viewport in one of the ends using the V key, move the main viewport to the other end and then drag the track from one viewport to another
17:38<planetmaker>that works?
17:38*appe tries.
17:39<@Terkhen>maybe my explanation is a bit confusing :P
17:39<appe>it worked
17:39<@Terkhen>ok :)
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17:47<Wolf01>'nighty night
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17:57<planetmaker>good night
17:59<@Terkhen>good night from here too
17:59<Yexo>and from here :)
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18:18<krinn>hi again
18:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22876 /trunk/src/autoreplace_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4712]: Report an error in the news if autoreplace/renew fails due to the engine type being no longer available.
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20:45<JRWR>Well, I'm done with the basic setup, just setup a dedicated server for all the US players
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20:49<Eddi|zuHause>all 5 of them?
20:50<JRWR>anyway, the ubuntu version is alot never then the windows version... gotta downgrade
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21:10<pikka>I see the briefcase is safe
21:14<JRWR>Anything I should know extra for dedicated servers, I've read most of the man pages
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 03 00:00:27 2011