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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-04

---Logopened Sun Sep 04 00:00:38 2011
00:28-!-DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg]
00:36<pjpe>vactrains
00:36<pjpe>is the most outrageous
00:36<pjpe>amazing
00:36<pjpe>newgrf set i have ever seen
00:41<pjpe>i love it
00:45<@Terkhen>good morning
00:46<pjpe>you have to build track the length of the map just to get up to speed
00:46<pjpe>amazing
00:49<@Terkhen>wasn't that fixed already?
00:49<pjpe>why would that be fixed
00:49<pjpe>it makes sense
00:49<pjpe>if it didn't take a long time then all you have is a very expensive people blender on rails
00:49<@Terkhen>it makes sense realism-wise, not game-wise :)
00:53<pjpe>i also like how there's no bridge fast enough
00:53<pjpe>so you can have this train that you can miss in the blink of an eye
00:53<pjpe>and then oops slows done from a bridge
00:55<@Terkhen>oh
00:55<@Terkhen>that reminds me something
00:55<@Terkhen>do they slowdown on tunnels too?
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00:56<pjpe>probably not
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00:56<pjpe>let me check
00:57<@Terkhen>codewise they should not
00:57<@Terkhen>unless they still have air drag :P
00:59<pjpe>nope
00:59<pjpe>runs just as fast as normally
00:59<@Terkhen>ok :)
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02:54<krinn>morning
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04:02<Hyronymus>does anyone know if/how you can link to a paragraph on a wikipage rather than to the wiki page itself
04:02<@Yexo>if it's in the table of contents you can use that link
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04:03<Hyronymus>and if it isn't
04:03<@Yexo>I don't think it's possible in that case
04:03<Hyronymus>ok, thanks
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04:18<Zuu>It might be possible still. It could be that it creates the hash-links anyways. You could open the source view in your browser and look for <a> tags with a name/id given.
04:19-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
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04:19<Zuu>Or just follow the pattern of those hash-links from a page with a TOC and see if the hash-string has any relation to the paragraph.
04:19<Hyronymus>thanks Zuu
04:20-!-douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-191-227.w109-212.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Quit: Quitte]
04:20<Zuu>.. or you edit the page and add enough sections to cause a TOC to appear in the preview.
04:22<Hyronymus>:P
04:24-!-AussieScreens [~AussieScr@58-84-146-60.e-wire.net.au] has joined #openttd
04:26<AussieScreens>hey guys
04:26<krinn>hi
04:26<AussieScreens>you playing OpenTTD?
04:27<__ln__>nope.
04:28<krinn>AussieScreens, see the channel name and topic ?
04:29*Alberth wonders what the topic says about playing OpenTTD
04:31*krinn don't know he never read it
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04:54<Dilandau>!password
04:55*Alberth ponders where Dorpsgek is
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04:55<@Yexo>it's glx who is missing
04:55<@Alberth>Dilandau: wrong channel
04:57<@planetmaker>moin
04:57<@Alberth>moin planetmaker
04:57<@Yexo>good morning
04:57<krinn>hi
04:58*planetmaker wonders how to detect liblzma without using pkg-config
04:58*LA wonders what the heck did he just say
04:58<@Alberth>try to link against it :)
04:58<@planetmaker>I guess so
04:58<@Alberth>afaik that's what the autotools do
04:59<@Alberth>autoconf in particular
04:59<@planetmaker>as pkg-config is currently an implicit dependency. Without pkg-config liblzma cannot be detected
05:00<@Alberth>figuring out build deps is always a mess
05:00<@planetmaker>yup
05:00<@Alberth>autotools doa quite decent job, but are a mess themselves
05:01<@Alberth>s/doa/do a/
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05:04<frosch123>i would suggest that using liblzma without pkg-config should not be supported by ottd :p
05:04<@planetmaker>meh. why?
05:05<frosch123>because it is exactly the point of pkg-config to deal with such things
05:05<@planetmaker>would be easiest, though
05:05<@Alberth>you should be able to manually state where the lib is as fallback (which I think is the case)
05:06<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22888 /trunk/src/town.h: -Doc: Doxygenize Town struct. (adf88)
05:06<andythenorth>morning
05:06<@planetmaker>well, the usual place. But forcing --with-lzma doesn't cut it
05:06<@Alberth>moin andy
05:07<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
05:07<krinn>hi andy
05:07<krinn>thenorth
05:07<@Alberth>planetmaker: I'd expect that you need to state a path as well
05:08<@planetmaker>probably. But specifying the default path seems a bit superfluous
05:09<@Alberth>there is something like a default path in unix? :o
05:10<@planetmaker>well. /usr/lib /usr/local/lib
05:10<@planetmaker>whatever is in your path :-)
05:12<@Alberth>:)
05:13<krinn>not for 64bits distros, that prefer use /usr/lib32(64)
05:14<krinn>i think /etc/ld.so.conf is where you'll find your lib path
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05:16<frosch123>planetmaker: i would expect "./configure --with-lzma=lzma" to just work
05:17<@planetmaker>yeah, but then it still complains about missing pkg-config
05:18<frosch123>hmm, yes, it does not seem to be the link option
05:18<frosch123>but the phg-config thingie itself
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05:19<frosch123>with-lzma seems to do something different than with-zlib and with-lzo2
05:22<frosch123>with-png does the same though
05:22<@planetmaker>yep
05:23<frosch123>so, at least the comment is wrong :p
05:23<@planetmaker>zlib, lzo2 use a simple library detection. While lzma and pnglib use an individual one
05:24<frosch123>it should be echo " --with-liblzma[=pkg-config liblzma] enables liblzma support"
05:27*andythenorth wonders
05:27<andythenorth>are pipelines done yet?
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: do them as station tiles
05:33<andythenorth>that's done already in that case :)
05:33<@planetmaker>they exist as station tiles. Or as newobjects
05:35*planetmaker installs pkg-config
05:35<@planetmaker>with a whole tree of deps... :S
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05:36<andythenorth>stations as pipelines doesn't really count though :P
05:36-!-Tatsh [~Tatsh@99-178-255-238.lightspeed.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd
05:36<Tatsh>https://raw.github.com/tatsh/xchain/master/cctools-806.patch enjoy
05:36<Tatsh>lol
05:38<frosch123>looks like you joined the wrong channel :p
05:38<JVassie>mmm
05:39<@planetmaker>frosch123: if I understood it correctly it's part of the cross-compilation toolchain to build openttd for osx on a linux box
05:39<@Terkhen>planetmaker: I had to install a lot of stupid stuff just to detect liblzma with MinGW :)
05:39<@planetmaker>:-)
05:39<Tatsh>planetmaker, yup
05:40<Tatsh>that's for the latest version of cctools on http://opensource.apple.com/release/developer-tools-41/
05:40<appe>boulderdash!
05:40<Tatsh>a lot of headers were 'stolen' from my mac
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes i _really_ wonder about the intelligence of people... "how do i make trains turn around in stations" - "enable turn around in stations in difficulty options" - "that doesn't answer my question"
05:46<krinn>technically you've answer to "howto make trains turnaround in station" and not "how do i make..." :)
05:47-!-SmatZ- is now known as SmatZ
05:48<krinn>but i suppose that was the answer anyone would expect than a "build rails around it"
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05:58*Zuu found out one can work around the online content crash by going ot the NewGRF window and click to update just the NewGRFs from there as the bug is AI-related.
05:59*Eddi|zuHause always uses online content from the newgrf window
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06:07<Wolf01>hello
06:07<krinn>hi Wolf01
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07:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22889 /trunk/src/string_func.h: -Fix [FS#4751]: [OSX] MacOSX 10.7 knows already about strndup (leecbaker)
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07:41<@peter1138>grammar well you do
07:42<SpComb>planetmaker knows already about grammar
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>very german the grammar is
07:46-!-z-MaTRiX [~matrix@2a01:270:dd00:7700::1] has joined #openttd
07:46<z-MaTRiX>hey-ho
07:48<z-MaTRiX>į see only name resolution is broken now
07:50<appe>o_
07:50<appe>what's the CIA-2 all about
07:50<__ln__>english only
07:52<__ln__>http://aasi.ebm.fi/data/images/0000009728.png
07:52<SpComb>Stayinplaceium
07:54<appe>classic.
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>appe: the CIA monitors this channel, didn't you know?
07:55<appe>Eddi|zuHause: well, you do have extensive knowledge about train networks and places with high densities of people
07:55<appe>might be valuable in a *cough* al quaeda situation.
07:56<@planetmaker>now that you discovered it... better hide quite well
07:56<__ln__>appe: *al qaeda
07:56<appe>__ln__: ah, yes.
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08:21*planetmaker needs more VMs... to run several OSX in parallel without reboot
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08:37<z-MaTRiX>hi
08:47<@Terkhen>hi z-MaTRiX
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09:09<Tatsh>okay
09:09<Tatsh>planetmaker, gcc targetting Darwin/OS X latest available (publicly) now builds on linux
09:09<Tatsh>it's funky but everything including C++ works now
09:10<Tatsh>http://pastebin.com/Ax2zksnY
09:11<Tatsh>time to set up distcc
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09:26<@planetmaker>good news, Tatsh :-)
09:26<krinn>nice work Tatsh
09:26<@planetmaker>please make a careful documentation and patches, thus that I could build all that myself :-)
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09:27<@planetmaker>from the official sources, with your patches and the description of how to achieve the result :-)
09:28<@planetmaker>if you could provide a walk-through that way, it'd be _really_ great
09:28<krinn>else you'll have to ssh to everyone and build it yourself :)
09:28<@planetmaker>For us - but I guess other projects could profit from that then, too
09:31<@planetmaker>(I know, careful documentation sucks, but that's the way it really will be helpful. Pulling from modified, personal repositories is not something I want to do when building a compile farm)
09:31<@planetmaker>sorry to say, but that's too risky ;-)
09:32<Tatsh>well, google originally did this with toolwhip (probably after seeing the old docs for this) so they could automate chrome builds without needing macs
09:33<@planetmaker>yup, I looked at it when you pasted the link the other day
09:33<Tatsh>i'm interested in distcc for either gentoo prefix or macports on my mac
09:34<@planetmaker>:-)
09:34<@planetmaker>well, as said: please document what you do. And make changes available as patches. That's the most helpful form IMHO
09:37<@planetmaker>it makes it easy / easier to follow your steps :-)
09:38<@planetmaker>pulling a whole repo, analysing what is different to the default repos (which version?) is considerably more work
09:38<@planetmaker>while you all know that relatively easily
09:42<@planetmaker>Tatsh: and I really would like to be able to follow your steps... it might make it considerably easier to get maybe some 2nd OSX compiler done which targets the newer OSX versions
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09:44<Tatsh>i am doing that planetmaker
09:44<Tatsh>it's hackish at the moment but almost there
09:44<Tatsh>what's not up to date is ld64 but a person who maintains binutils-apple (cctools) for gentoo is helping me out there; he has patches for Darwin but they should be useful on Linux; then we'll have a fully up-to-date toolchain
09:45<@planetmaker>:-)
09:45-!-Zuu is now known as Guest8685
09:45-!-Zuu_ is now known as Zuu
09:45<Tatsh>i figured out the best solution for ranlib; just copy libtool.c to ranlib.c, set libtool to ALWAYS run as ranlib in that file, add it to targets
09:46<Tatsh>gcc version 4.2.1 (Apple Inc. build 5666) (dot 3)
09:46<Tatsh>latest version built on linux
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10:12<Zuu>The next OpenGFX+ Airports release looks promising. 4 views for most airports.
10:12<@planetmaker>yup :-)
10:12<@planetmaker>zeroeight did marvelous work there
10:12<@planetmaker>I just wonder whether I simply should release it ;-)
10:13<Zuu>It would be cool to include a screenshot in the release post. Although it will probably trigger more reports of the online content problem.
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11:04<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22890 /branches/1.1/ (6 files in 4 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare: 1.1.3-RC1
11:05<@planetmaker>hm, system startup on 10.7 is considerably faster... esp. given that all apps are re-instated to their previous state
11:05<@planetmaker>which is nice
11:06<@planetmaker>and that even when comparing booting from usb vs. internal hdd
11:07<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22891 /tags/1.1.3-RC1/ (. src/os/windows/ottdres.rc.in src/rev.cpp.in): -Release 1.1.3-RC1
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11:54<@Alberth>How do you save a palette in gimp?
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>in some obscure side menu
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm... can't find it either
12:00<Ammler>Alberth: you mean export?
12:00<@Alberth>yes
12:02<Ammler>palette window -> edit palette -> save
12:03<@Alberth>I clicked that, but nothing happens
12:03<Ammler>hmm, indeed :-P
12:04<frosch123>@topic set 1 1.1.2, 1.1.3-RC1
12:04-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.2, 1.1.3-RC1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
12:05<@Alberth>I'll find another way to get that data :/ thanks for confirming it is not easy :)
12:05<Ammler>Alberth: anyway, the palettes are either in ~/.gimp*/palettes or /usr/share/gimp/...
12:06<@Alberth>hmm, good idea
12:06<Ammler>you can copy the path at least
12:07<Ammler>I did quite easy as I made the palettes files for the devzone
12:09<@Alberth>Thanks
12:09*Alberth needs some dinner first
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the NML topic's "documentation" link is outdated...
12:12<Ammler>does it not give a hint to the new place?
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12:13<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yes, but it has wrong mime type, so it doesn't open in browser
12:14<Ammler>the one on hg.o.o?
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>yes
12:15<Ammler>I quess, that is because Hirundo made some other windows things :-)
12:17<Ammler>or the update to hg 1.9.2?
12:18<Ammler>hmm
12:18<Ammler>how can I fix that?
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22892 /trunk/src/lang/ (arabic_egypt.txt belarusian.txt czech.txt korean.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 41 changes by kasakg
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by Wowanxm
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: czech - 7 changes by TheLamer
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: korean - 3 changes by junho2813
13:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22893 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
13:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#4744]: [OSX] Compilation on OSX 10.7 was broken (based on patch by leecbaker)
13:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Add: [OSX] Support for fullscreen mode when compiled against SDK 10.7. Otherwise fullscreen mode is disabled when OpenTTD is run on OSX Lion
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13:51<pjpe>i never tried openttd fullscreen on a mac
13:51<pjpe>does it do it like every other fullscreen program
13:51<pjpe>and not let you tab away?
13:51<__ln__>exactly like that
13:51<pjpe>god i always hated that
13:51<pjpe>just the worst idea
13:52<pjpe>something will lock up in fullscreen mode
13:52<pjpe>then what do you do
13:52<@planetmaker>hm, I didn't test that. Might actually be different when you compile it now on Lion
13:52<pjpe>wait a few hours and hope it fixes itself?
13:52<__ln__>there was a patch to make it apple-tabable, but...
13:52<pjpe>no you pull the plug
13:52<pjpe>:/
13:53<__ln__>how is the Lion fullscreen done then?
13:53<pjpe>it just maximizes the window and gets rid of the topbar
13:53<pjpe>and menubar
13:53<@planetmaker>Now I'm looking forward whether the binaries of the CF actually work ;-)
13:53<pjpe>and puts it in it's own space
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13:54<@planetmaker>but somehow a proper fullscreen support also for the other versions has to be found. The one on 10.7 is quite elegant, though
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13:54<__ln__>pjpe: is that some Lionish full-screen-apps stuff or something normal?
13:54<pjpe>they just did it that way in lion
13:54<golden>i need the Al's for Open TTd 1.1.1
13:55<frosch123>download them using the ingame content download
13:56<__ln__>using the windowed mode code for fullscreen as well is the solution for at least 10.4..10.6, probably also 10.3 and 10.7
13:56<@planetmaker>10.7: yes
13:56<@planetmaker>that's what it does now, if natively compiled
13:56<@planetmaker>and indeed, I think it can be used for the other versions as well
13:57<golden>jst did that thank yoou
13:58<__ln__>i have run openttd in apple-tabable fullscreen years ago, on 10.4
13:58<golden>and the trains cnt get the latest one's y???
13:59<@planetmaker>and where did that go, __ln__?
13:59<@planetmaker>fell prey to Bjani-ism? ;-)
14:00<__ln__>planetmaker: it was never in svn, it was a patch. the patch was rejected by Bjarni, because he considered the drawing to be too slow compared to the old approach.
14:00<__ln__>most of the patch was much later applied to svn by egladil, but not the fullscreen part.
14:01<golden>ok so i cnt get them???
14:02<__ln__>planetmaker: i think this is the patch and it contains the fullscreen part, but obviously it is against an awfully old revision and a lot has changed since: http://users.utu.fi/lanurm/ottd/quartzVideo6_by_blackis.diff
14:02<@planetmaker>golden: you might want to put your question in a clearer way. And without leet-speak I have to say
14:03<__ln__>search for "bool fullscreen" though
14:04<golden>my bad when i get to the 2035 years i get the electric engens but i cnt buy them
14:04<pjpe>huh what do you know
14:04<@planetmaker>*engines
14:04<@planetmaker>*can't
14:04<pjpe>new revision works perfectly in fullscreen
14:04<pjpe>aside from the graphical glitch you get when you resize the window
14:04<@Terkhen>golden: you can only build them on electrified depots
14:04<@planetmaker>pjpe: you mean transiently funny colours?
14:05<pjpe>yes
14:05<pjpe>like colourful noise
14:05<pjpe>then it goes back to normal
14:05<@planetmaker>yup
14:05<pjpe>just like when you normally resize
14:05<@Terkhen>golden: http://wiki.openttd.org/Railway_construction#Types_of_railways
14:05<@planetmaker>only during resize. I guess that's ok
14:05<golden>ok so i hv to convert the railways???
14:05<@Terkhen>and regarding your probable next question: http://wiki.openttd.org/Convert_rail
14:05<@Terkhen>regarding future questions: please search in the wiki first
14:06<golden>ok
14:07<golden>thanks guys
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14:08<@Terkhen>hmm... I'm bored
14:08<@planetmaker>he :-)
14:08<@planetmaker>play a game?
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14:09<@Terkhen>no, yacd is too outdated
14:09<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:09<@planetmaker>yeha, it is.
14:09<@planetmaker>foobar made a somewhat updated version
14:09<andythenorth>hey ho
14:09<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
14:10<@Terkhen>maybe I should code something
14:10<@planetmaker>new and cool features?
14:10<andythenorth>yarp
14:10<andythenorth>always
14:10<andythenorth>"every day is a feature day"
14:10<@Terkhen>maybe
14:11<andythenorth>Terkhen: newgrf code, or real code?
14:11<andythenorth>I missed the rest of the conversation :P
14:11<@Terkhen>I don't mind as long as it entertains me
14:12<andythenorth>there are multiple FIRS 'to-do' items :P
14:12<@Terkhen>like what?
14:12<andythenorth>fences are an easy one
14:13<andythenorth>or adapting tile layouts to use the 'ground detail' tiles I've started
14:13<@Terkhen>hmmm... are you sure of that? :P
14:13<andythenorth>adapting tile layouts would be nice
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14:15<@Terkhen>I don't find the related task
14:16<@planetmaker>might have none ;-)
14:17<@Alberth>that is arrangable :p
14:18<andythenorth>Terkhen: there's no ticket yet :)
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14:20<andythenorth>Terkhen: I can describe what's needed :)
14:21<andythenorth>each tile layout should have a ground tile, a ground overlay, and n building tiles
14:21<andythenorth>the ground overlays haven't existed before generally
14:22<andythenorth>they'll have the "don't make transparent" bit set
14:23<@Terkhen>yes
14:23<@Terkhen>what is the use of the ground overlay? snow?
14:24<andythenorth>gardens, black areas for basements etc
14:24<andythenorth>and snow
14:25<@Terkhen>I see
14:25<@Terkhen>so 1) modify snow template
14:25<@Terkhen>2) add other things
14:25<andythenorth>I made recent commits to the grain mill to provide the graphics + rearrange sprites
14:25<@Terkhen>it should not need much changes IMO
14:25<@Terkhen>just the snow one
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14:30<@Terkhen>GROUND_OVERLAY_CONDITIONAL(sprite, condition)
14:30<@Terkhen>GROUND_OVERLAY(sprite)
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14:33<@planetmaker>hm... builder's yard already uses conditional ground, Terkhen
14:33<@planetmaker>with the overlays. Dunno what andy drew recently ;-)
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14:36<George>Hi. Is there a NML->NFO translator/compilator?
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>you can decompile the nml output with grfcodec?
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14:37<Eddi|zuHause>nmlc has an --nfo option
14:38<@planetmaker>makes sometimes for interesting code :-)
14:41<andythenorth>planetmaker: I split ground detail out for each tile
14:41<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/sprites/graphics/industries/grainmill.png
14:41<andythenorth>(only the brick grain mill is done so far)
14:49<@Terkhen>so...
14:49<@Terkhen>which one is the correct example? grain mill or builders yard?
14:50<@planetmaker>grain mill was done by andy ;-)
14:50<@planetmaker>builder's yard by me
14:50<@planetmaker>you can now outplay us two :-P
14:51<@planetmaker>possibly there might even be a 3rd option which is better
14:51<@planetmaker>the only important thing is that the industry's ground sprites are drawn on top of the default ground sprites
14:51<@planetmaker>that allows for improved ground awareness (just adding details to default ground)
14:51<@planetmaker>which is especially important for snow, as TTD snow and OpenGFX snow look quite a bit different
14:56-!-z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has joined #openttd
14:56<z-MaTRiX>hey
14:59<krinn>hi
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15:06<andythenorth>Terkhen: I didn't code anything for it yet
15:07<andythenorth>:)
15:07<andythenorth>I just figured out the spritesheet layouts
15:07<andythenorth>this gets the separate ground snow planetmaker wanted, as well as black 'foundation' areas for buildings
15:07<@planetmaker>\o/
15:08<andythenorth>it likely means reslicing some industries, and adjusting offsets
15:08<andythenorth>but meh
15:08<andythenorth>that's fine
15:09<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the rotor of the wind grain mill could be a separate sprite
15:09<@planetmaker>though... probably it doesn't matter really
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15:10<andythenorth>if the windmill needs graphics edited ever again, it would be better to separate rotor
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15:18<@Terkhen>hmm
15:18<@Terkhen>I'll check the code
15:26<@Terkhen>planetmaker: GROUNDSPRITE_SWITCH on builders yard stores a sprite in var_default_ground, but I can't find any uses of that var later
15:28<@Terkhen>besides that, the only conditional code I see is the addition of the spriteset_ground_snow sprite to the SPRITELAYOUT_NORMAL_SNOW template, in the way I originally intended when I coded that template
15:29<@Terkhen>in the grain mill, there are modifications to the spritesets, but spritelayouts are not touched
15:29<@Terkhen>so... I don't know what you want me to do :)
15:30<andythenorth>Terkhen: yes I modified the spritesets and offsets
15:31<andythenorth>but modifying the advanced tile layout is beyond me currently
15:31<andythenorth>so the new ground detail graphics are unused
15:31<andythenorth>and iirc, the newly added sprites have no action 1
15:31<@Terkhen>so... the idea is
15:31<andythenorth>the spritesets are numbered, so I didn't want to touch those
15:31<andythenorth>it means refactoring them :(
15:31<@planetmaker>Terkhen: if it uses it all as you intended... fine :-)
15:32<@Terkhen>ground sprite, usually set by GROUNDSPRITE_SWITCH
15:32<@Terkhen>ground sprite overlay, that may be present or not
15:32<@Terkhen>buildings
15:33<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I numbered the spritesets without paying any attention to their contents
15:33<@Terkhen>as their contents did not matter to the nml conversion
15:33<@Terkhen>they probably should get better names, but the thing was tedious enough already :P
15:33<andythenorth>faster :)
15:34<@Terkhen>so regarding spritesets: rename when they are modified only, I think
15:34<@Terkhen>anyways
15:34<@Terkhen>is that list I mentioned correct?
15:35<andythenorth>Terkhen: yes. Ground sprite, ground sprite overlay, n buildings
15:37<@Terkhen>talking about tedious things... that means changing all the spritelayout templates :)
15:37<@Terkhen>I'll probably code it and after that... replace as needed
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15:40<andythenorth>the templates are the reason I didn't do it :)
15:40<andythenorth>I don't understand them yet
15:41<@Terkhen>with this they are going to get more complicated
15:41<@Terkhen>the current ones are simple
15:42<@Terkhen>oh, I found where the ground var is loaded
15:42<@Terkhen>quite confusing IMO
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15:43<@Terkhen>planetmaker: why keep the different SNOW, DESERT, NORMAL templates when var_default_ground contains the correct sprite already?
15:45<@Terkhen>either use the old templates if the industry is not using var_default_ground, or create a new one
15:45<@Terkhen>also, var_default_ground might not be zero for other industries
15:46<@Terkhen>quite confusing; even if var_default_ground has a value, the snow/desert sprite will be drawn over it, rendering it useless
15:47<@Terkhen>planetmaker: industries using var_default_ground still rely on the SPRITELAYOUT_NORMAL_DESERT_SNOW_BEGIN templates to set snow/desert sprites?
15:50<andythenorth>I updated Glass Works spritesheet for ground detail as well
15:51<@planetmaker>Terkhen: yes. Using that template allows to provide climate-specific overlay sprites
15:52<@planetmaker>If that is not needed, you could replace that by the one-overlay sprite thingy
15:52<@planetmaker>i.e. skip the climate distinction
15:53<@planetmaker>e.g. for snow it makes still sense as tracks probably are drawn as icy tracks instead of dirty ones or so
15:53<@planetmaker>one might use the same tracks, though for the other terrain types
15:53<@Terkhen>but that template is not made for overlays :P
15:53<@Terkhen>the childsprites are hacked groundsprites
15:53<@planetmaker>how do you mean?
15:54<@Terkhen>SPRITELAYOUT_NORMAL_DESERT_SNOW(spritelayout_name, ground_sprite_normal, ground_sprite_desert, ground_sprite_snow, building_spriteset, building_zextent) <--- ground_sprite_normal is the sprite to use when there is no snow, ground_sprite_desert is the sprite to use when the tile is desert and so on
15:54<@Terkhen>for overlays... I would do it differently
15:54<@Terkhen>let me write some xample code
15:59<@Terkhen>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/547/
16:00<@Terkhen>planetmaker^
16:00<@Terkhen>what I mean is: the original template is prepared for ground sprites only, and you are "abusing" it to set the overlays (although your use is less hacky than the intended use)
16:00<__ln__>does anyone know english?
16:01<__ln__>what kind of a pilot is an "advance pilot"? (nb: not advanced)
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16:02<@planetmaker>Terkhen: agreed, my use is a bit hacked in and your suggestion looks cleaner
16:03<@planetmaker>Feel free to implemente a clean solution. My hack has been used only in aluminum plant and builder's yard so far
16:03<@planetmaker>iirc
16:03<@Terkhen>I was lost because I was assuming that the template still received sprites, not sprite overlays :)
16:03<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
16:03<@planetmaker>I wanted to make it as little intrusive as possible
16:03<@Terkhen>where is FENCE_NE defined?
16:04<z-MaTRiX>į think looks does not have anything to do with usefulness
16:04<@planetmaker>in the fences file
16:04<@planetmaker>templates/fences.pnml
16:04<__ln__>z-MaTRiX: į?
16:04<z-MaTRiX>:)
16:05<@Terkhen>ok, so they are buildings
16:05<@planetmaker>actually... sorry, in templates/tile_fences.pnml
16:05<@planetmaker>yes, they're buildings
16:05<@Terkhen>then that could be used in the new format too
16:05<@planetmaker>they have to be
16:05<z-MaTRiX>ƒaņčy
16:08*Terkhen ponders
16:08<@Terkhen>everything in the "spritelayout_templates" file would be deprecated code after this
16:08<@Terkhen>should I create the new things on a different file?
16:09<@planetmaker>might make sense
16:09<@planetmaker>Keeps single concepts in a single file
16:10<@planetmaker>spritelayouts_groundaware.pnml?
16:10<@Terkhen>ok :)
16:11<@planetmaker>or spritelayouts_ground_overlays. But might not be as descriptive as the 1st
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16:17<andythenorth> /me adds ground sprites for brewery
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16:18<@Terkhen>ok :)
16:19<@Terkhen>make a task with a list of the industries that need coding regarding overlays
16:20<andythenorth>hmm
16:20<andythenorth>'all' :P
16:20<andythenorth>nah, I'll do it now
16:20<andythenorth>meanwhile I have white pixels and can't defeat them
16:21<andythenorth>there are no crops in the action 1
16:21<andythenorth>there's some magic somewhere?
16:21-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
16:21<andythenorth>or this isn't an action 1?
16:21<@Terkhen>I don't know what is that :P
16:22<andythenorth>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/548/
16:22<@Terkhen>there will be unconditional ground sprite overlays? (overlays that are always drawn)
16:22<@Terkhen>I don't know
16:22<@Terkhen>for me those are spriteset blocks :P
16:23<@Terkhen>I remember something about cropping in nml constants
16:23<andythenorth>error in the graphics
16:23<andythenorth>solved I think
16:23<@Terkhen>ok :)
16:23<@Terkhen>so... some overlays will always be drawn? or all of them are conditional?
16:24<andythenorth>ground overlays will vary according to climate
16:24<@Terkhen>ok, conditional then :)
16:25<@Terkhen>planetmaker: what is the use of spriteset_empty in the builders yard? I can't see it used anywhere
16:26<@planetmaker>Terkhen: shouldn't the overlays not be conditional but an adv. spritelayout?
16:26<@planetmaker>or at least one climate-specific one?
16:27<@Terkhen>planetmaker: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/549/
16:27<@Terkhen>they are part of an advanced spritelayout
16:27-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc6eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:28<@planetmaker>what about sprite: ground_overlay_sprite(climate_condition);
16:28<@planetmaker>thus not requiring a separate childsprite for each climate
16:29<@Terkhen>"normal" also has an overlay?
16:29<@planetmaker>every climate has an overlay
16:30<@planetmaker>like: always draw the default ground. And only modify it
16:30<@Terkhen>that was my question :)
16:30<@planetmaker>(sometimes modification can be "draw concrete all over")
16:30<@Terkhen>then we need unconditional ground sprite overlays
16:30<@planetmaker>hu?
16:30<@planetmaker>ah
16:30<@planetmaker>yes
16:30<@Terkhen>GROUND_SPRITE_OVERLAY(overlay_spriteset(climate_condition))
16:31<@Terkhen>kind of confusing :)
16:31<@Terkhen>as the unconditional have a condition :P
16:31<@planetmaker>climate_number?
16:31<@planetmaker>tiletype_number
16:32<@Terkhen>climate_number maybe
16:32<@Terkhen>but the actual use will be something like:
16:32<@planetmaker>often it will be sufficient to use snow yes/no
16:32<@Terkhen>GROUND_SPRITE_OVERLAY(overlay_spriteset((terrain_type == TILETYPE_DESERT) + 2 * (terrain_type == TILETYPE_SNOW)))
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16:33<@planetmaker>err, what?
16:33<@Terkhen>that returns 0 if the tile is not desert or snow, 1 if it is desert and 2 if it is snow
16:33<@Terkhen>maybe there is a simpler way to do it :)
16:33<@Terkhen>I just copied the condition from the current spritelayout template code
16:34<@planetmaker>well... the ground awareness variables can be re-used
16:34<Hirundo>is terrain_type / 2 simple (though hacky) enough?
16:34<@planetmaker>they're still valid
16:34<@planetmaker>nope :-)
16:35<@Terkhen>I don't know the "real" values of terrain_type beyond the abstraction, so for me it is simple and hacky :)
16:35<@Terkhen>planetmaker: where are those variables?
16:35<@planetmaker>searching...
16:36<@planetmaker>in defines.pnml: var_default_ground: spriteID of default ground tile
16:37<@planetmaker>and created in templates/tile_ground_sprite.pnml
16:37<@planetmaker>it could actually store some more intermediate info, if helpful
16:37<@Terkhen>screw FIRS, someone is willing to pay me $$$ for coding industries :O
16:37<@planetmaker>it creates that info anyway
16:37<@Terkhen>planetmaker: thanks, let me check :)
16:38<@planetmaker>you could add just a storage parameter for the condition and store the appropriate values
16:38<@planetmaker>easy an no double checks
16:38<@planetmaker>*and
16:38<andythenorth>Terkhen: don't forget FIRS is currently branched :O
16:38<@planetmaker>but the next free temporary variable is 13 :-P
16:39<andythenorth>this should go in trunk
16:39<@planetmaker>branched?
16:39<pjpe>should yapf on boats be harder on the cpu than original pathfinding
16:39<@planetmaker>no
16:39<@planetmaker>hm... actually might be
16:39<pjpe>the guy who runs the server i play on says putting on yapf for boats always makes it unplayable after a while
16:39<pjpe>and well
16:39<pjpe>it kinda seems like it
16:39<andythenorth>planetmaker: there are currently 0.7.0 and default branches
16:40<@planetmaker>I missed that :-)
16:40<@planetmaker>thanks
16:40<@planetmaker>then we should only work on default
16:40<@Terkhen>@commit 22352
16:40<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: Commit by smatz :: r22352 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt table/settings.ini) (2011-04-19 18:47:36 UTC)
16:40<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: -Change: make YAPF the default pathfinder for ships, don't discourage players from using it
16:40<@Terkhen>pjpe: ^
16:40<@planetmaker>and backport to 0.7 when needed
16:40<andythenorth>yes
16:40<@Terkhen>so in theory YAPF is better for ships, after that revision
16:40<@planetmaker>thus not in 1.1.x
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16:41<@Terkhen>how can I check if I'm currently on 0.7.0 or in trunk?
16:41<andythenorth>hg branch
16:41<@planetmaker>hg tip
16:41<@planetmaker>tells you also the branch
16:41<@Terkhen>ok :)
16:41<andythenorth>hg tip fails to tell me branch
16:41<@planetmaker>(hg tip only, if not default)
16:41<andythenorth>right
16:42<@Terkhen>planetmaker: do you mean creating a new variable?
16:42<@Yexo>planetmaker: hg tip doesn't work
16:42<@planetmaker>Terkhen: might make sense than checking for all possible ground sprites
16:42<@Yexo>it shows you the most recent revision in the repo
16:42<@Terkhen>ok :)
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16:42<@planetmaker>but saving that var can be done among those checks
16:42<@Terkhen>but there is a problem
16:43<@planetmaker>additionally to writing the groundsprite
16:43<@Terkhen>what value should be used for each climate?
16:43<@Terkhen>s/climate/tile type/
16:43<@Terkhen>if we use for example (normal, snow, desert), industries that have normal and desert overlays but not snow have a "hole"
16:43<@planetmaker>yes. That's where we need the spriteset_empty ;-)
16:44<@planetmaker>hm... or not
16:44<@planetmaker>we need to duplicate
16:44<@Terkhen>yes :)
16:44<@Terkhen>triplicate actually
16:44<@Terkhen>right now everything is already duplicated
16:44<@planetmaker>or n-plicate
16:44<andythenorth>this sounds way complicated
16:44<@Terkhen>yup
16:44<andythenorth>why is it complicated?
16:45<@planetmaker>well. In principle it's easy, if we always provide ground sprites for normal, desert, snow, tropical
16:45<andythenorth>the layout is almost the same as the reference layout frosch gave for advanced action 2 tiles
16:45<@Terkhen>nml takes away a lot of complications, but it is still based on those crazy specs :P
16:45<@planetmaker>and just duplicate the real sprites where needed
16:45<Zuu_>Hmm, spent 1-2 hours to cleanup my airport patch queue so that it now uses unix line endings only - got it to work as before - just to find out its soon time to go to bed and no time to implement new stuff :-p
16:45<@planetmaker>it gives us most flexibility while maintaining the same code everywhere
16:46*planetmaker hugs Zuu_ :-)
16:46<Zuu_>Although I have made some useful work - integrated the AIAirportTypeList code into the same patch queue as the other changes. :-)
16:46<Pinkbeast>Zuu> Wait, why isn't changing the line endings a simple matter of your regexp tool of choice?
16:46<Zuu_>Decided to put it at the bottom and not at the top as otherwise I would move around the AirportType data types too much.
16:47<Zuu_>Because SVN have checkd out files with windows line endings for me
16:47*andythenorth is still confused :)
16:47<Zuu_>Now I use hg only and no svn-hg mixture and get it with unix line endings everywhere.
16:47<andythenorth>I guess I haven't read the templates :P
16:47<@planetmaker>Terkhen: andythenorth: after all adding 4 (or however many distinctions we want) ground sprites per unique groundsprite set won't kil us
16:47<@Terkhen>the new ones are not committed :)
16:48<@Terkhen>andythenorth: the new ones are going to be simpler actually
16:48<@planetmaker>it'd maybe add a couple of unnecessary sprites, but that's of no importance really. Don't you agree?
16:48<@Terkhen>planetmaker: 4-plicate all spritesets :)
16:48<@Terkhen>it's tedious
16:48<Zuu_>Pinkbeast: Also there is two handy tools for just changing a file: unix2dos and dos2unix.
16:48<Zuu_>It can probably accept glob params to specify multiple files.
16:49<@planetmaker>Terkhen: only the groundsprite sets.
16:49<@Terkhen>no
16:49-!-Zuu_ is now known as Zuu
16:49*krinn still wonder why ms add that extra char at end
16:49<@planetmaker>hm, every?
16:49<@Terkhen>all spritesets used in a given spritelayout must have the same size
16:49<@Terkhen>specs limitation, still not circumvented by nml
16:49<@planetmaker>what about slope awareness then?
16:49<andythenorth>how about the old method? :P
16:49<@planetmaker>4*19?
16:49<@Terkhen>andythenorth: what old method?
16:49<andythenorth>includes :P
16:50<andythenorth>#define the graphics filename
16:50<andythenorth>repeat the template
16:50<andythenorth>not really the right route now
16:50<@planetmaker>that misses the point ;-)
16:50<@Terkhen>what's the difference? they are mostly the same thing
16:50<Zuu>krinn: To annoy programmers when they got patches that remove all lines in a file and then add them all again with a small change *somewhere* :-)
16:50<@Terkhen>#include templates get parameters via define
16:50<krinn>:) Zuu
16:50<@Terkhen>these templates get parameters via TEMPLATE_NAME(param1, param2, ...
16:51*krinn think Zuu shouldn't hit the "save" button
16:51<@Terkhen>besides that they do mostly the same thing
16:51<Zuu>What button?
16:51<Zuu>Oh, in MSVC?
16:52<Zuu>Well, if files are unix-only line feeds it doesn't screw up.
16:52<krinn>:) you should add the tool to your commit script (if you have one) to convert the end chars
16:52<@planetmaker>Zuu: use sed on all files and replace \n\r by \n. Done :-)
16:52<@planetmaker>or easier dos2unix *
16:53<@planetmaker>available also for mingw
16:53<Zuu>My biggest problem related to wrong line endings is however that squirrel_generate.sh updates *all* ai_*.hpp.sq files with a different line ending.
16:53<@Yexo>does sed actually work on the end-of-line chars?
16:53<@planetmaker>yes, you can make it work with eol
16:53<Zuu>But it is now all solved :-)
16:53<@planetmaker>it's not a biginner's course in sed, though
16:54<@Terkhen>I don't know the best way to do the templates, I'll leave them be for today
16:54<@planetmaker>I did once multi-line sed replace, but I forgot how :-)
16:54*Pinkbeast never learned sed/awkery, I learned Perl first :-)
16:54<Zuu>planetmaker: or just make sure hg check out files without converting them to windows style and stick to that :-)
16:54<@planetmaker>^^ quite
16:55<andythenorth>Terkhen: you have at least made me feel better about it
16:55<andythenorth>currently I am lost
16:55<Zuu>but indeed the dos2unix and vice verca is usefull
16:55<@planetmaker>pure NML is where there are few caps, andythenorth ;-)
16:55<@Terkhen>andythenorth: regarding the templates themselves or the way we are using them?
16:55<andythenorth>both
16:56<@planetmaker>nml caps are only constants and never followed by a () term
16:56<andythenorth>Terkhen you know how you feel when you look at FIRS nfo?
16:57<@Terkhen>I understood FIRS pnfo templates, not a single word of the rest
16:58<andythenorth>exactamly
16:58<andythenorth>looks like magic
16:58<@Terkhen>plain simple nml?
16:58<andythenorth>most of it
16:58<andythenorth>nvm
16:58<pjpe>what are the default construction costs for the default railtypes
16:58<pjpe>or where could i find those
16:58<@Yexo>andythenorth: the current problem FIRS code has that's it's very advanced
16:59<@Yexo>it was already when it was NFO code, and it became even more so with proper support for groundtiles and the fences
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm... whatever i just commited to CETS, i won't get to test it for a while... pretty busy time coming up
16:59<@Yexo>pjpe: start a new game without newgrfs and test?
16:59<andythenorth>the good thing is that we've added ~3 people who can maintain FIRS, and lost 1
16:59<pjpe>rather crude
17:00<krinn>2528€ for a rail on my current game
17:00<andythenorth>so we're +2 :)
17:01<@planetmaker>and now change the difficulty settings, krinn ;-)
17:02<krinn>planetmaker, will never do that! i love my easy settings
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>krinn: with inflation the price is practically meaningless
17:02<krinn>i said "in my current game" :)
17:03<@Terkhen>good night
17:03<krinn>night Terkhen
17:04<@planetmaker>sounds good. Good night from here, too
17:04*andythenorth also
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17:13<pjpe>how would i do a parameter to control costs in a rail type grf?
17:13<pjpe>can i use an expression in the construction cost field?
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17:15<@Yexo>yes, you can
17:15<pjpe>well that solves that
17:17*Zuu wonders when *someone* will implement generic lists where each data type that can be viewed in lists has a list of attributes that can be included in the list. OpenTTD would ship with default columns, but the ability to select which columns to include. Even more cool if one can add columns based on an expression using item attributes. :-)
17:19<Zuu>But then someone will tell me that OpenTTD is not VISUM or Excel :-p
17:26*krinn has been lost after the 2 list word
17:28<krinn>lol loosing faith here, just looked at my ai building rails stations and a train, just to see the industry closing
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>FIRS doesn't have industry closure
17:29<krinn>pathfinding took really too much time, i should look one day at the settings
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17:50<krinn>good night
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18:29<Wolf01>'night
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19:30<Eddi|zuHause>hm... are action2-ids extended bytes?
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19:55<@Yexo>no
19:56<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably a trap i'm running straight into... :)
19:57<@Yexo>hmm, why?
19:57<@Yexo>aren't you writing nml code?
19:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes
19:57<@Yexo>so you're not dealing with action2-ids at all
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>no, but nml is
19:58<@Yexo>yes, but action2-ids can be reused
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>unless the decision trees are too complex
19:59<@Yexo>consider actions A, B, C, D. A can have the same id as X long as it's not referenced after X (by X is fine)
19:59<@Yexo>sure, but they'll have to be _very_ complex before you run into that problem
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>i've not even scratched the surface of what i actually want to do
20:00<+glx>you can have a full chain with only one id
20:00<@Yexo>there are still some optimizations to be made in NML to reduce the action2-id usage, but as long as it doesn't give you an error just continue with what you want
20:02<Eddi|zuHause>i'm quite sure i will run into one or another limit
20:02<@Yexo>we'll see what we can do about that once you run into one
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20:30<Tatsh>planetmaker, almost there with distcc!
21:14<pjpe>am i crazy or did there used to be a colour scheme in openttd called cyan
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23:05<Tatsh>updated https://github.com/tatsh/xchain
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 05 00:00:29 2011