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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-05

---Logopened Mon Sep 05 00:00:29 2011
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01:31<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22894 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/cocoa_v.h: -Doc: Some sprinkles of doxygen for the cocoa video driver
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02:12<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:48<dihedral>greetings
02:51<@planetmaker>hello dihedral
02:53<dihedral>:-)
02:56-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd
02:56<dihedral>Mucht? well hello :-)
02:56<Mucht>hi dihedral :)
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03:15<Neon>Kommt ihr auf ups.com?
03:18<__ln__>Nein danke, hier essen.
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03:20<@planetmaker>Grammatikfehler, __ln__
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03:23<@peter1138>fredddieeeeee
03:28<@planetmaker>moin peter1138 :-)
03:28<@planetmaker>you mean...
03:28<@planetmaker>@topic get -1
03:28<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: English only
03:28<@planetmaker>?
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03:40<pjpesfsf>is there a command in openttd to make it run for a certain number of ticks
03:40<pjpesfsf>then quit
03:41<@planetmaker>yes
03:41<@planetmaker>checkout the command line help
03:41<pjpesfsf>openttd -h?
03:41<@planetmaker>^
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03:43<@planetmaker>hm... my advice is not as helpful as I had hoped for
03:43<pjpesfsf>yeah i don't see it
03:44<pjpesfsf>unless it's an option for debug
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03:44<@planetmaker>I don't recall exactly, I'm afraid. Might be
03:47<pjpesfsf>oh well
03:49<@planetmaker>try like "./openttd -v null 1000"
03:49<@planetmaker>or similar
03:49<@planetmaker>(just a random guess from my broken memory)
03:50<pjpesfsf>nope
03:50<pjpesfsf>just shows the help
03:51<pjpesfsf>-t 1000 launches the game
03:51<pjpesfsf>i have no idea if this will work
03:51<pjpesfsf>about how long is 1000 ticks
03:54<Hirundo>@calc 100 / 74
03:54<@DorpsGek>Hirundo: 1.35135135135
03:54<pjpesfsf>well i'm pretty sure it didn't work anyway
03:54<Hirundo>@calc 1000 / 74
03:54<@DorpsGek>Hirundo: 13.5135135135
03:54<Hirundo>^13.5 days
03:57<@planetmaker>game days
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03:57<@planetmaker>1000 / 74 * 30
03:57<@planetmaker>@calc 1000 / 74 * 30
03:57<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 405.405405405
03:57<@planetmaker>405 seconds
03:58<@planetmaker>ehm... must be wrong :-) 4 seconds
03:59<@planetmaker>you need to ask about the option later (tonight CET possibly), pjpesfsf - then more people who could know are present
03:59<@planetmaker>Or post to the forums
03:59<pjpesfsf>i looked through the command line scanner function and there doesn't seem to be anything about it
04:00<@planetmaker>yeah, I didn't see it either. But I know that I used it :-)
04:00<@planetmaker>it was like without graphics driver
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05:08<@peter1138>oh, my server's not got pause on no players, heh
05:08<@peter1138>it's 4183 :p
05:08<@peter1138>i've never been on it, haha
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05:50<@Terkhen>it is openttd -v null:ticks = number IIRC
05:50<@Terkhen>but of course he's gone :)
05:51<@planetmaker>yup, of course :-)
06:07<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/552/ <-- so... this is an idea?
06:07<@planetmaker>it only works with the null video driver.
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>looks odd...
06:08<@Terkhen>you need to do something about the cookies :P
06:08<@planetmaker>delete your cookie related to that website
06:09<@Terkhen>I know, but doing that every other week is tedious :)
06:09<@planetmaker>yes
06:10<@planetmaker>I couldn't yet convince some other person that it is not my personal issue ;-)
06:10<Ammler>I believe you guys, you just never told me how to fix...
06:11<@Terkhen>I don't know how to fix :P
06:11<@peter1138>seems a silly idea to document that there
06:11<@Terkhen>I just use paste.openttdcoop normally
06:11<@Terkhen>and one day, Internal Server ERror
06:11<@Terkhen>planetmaker: IMO it should be documented "below"
06:11<@peter1138>readme.txt? :S
06:11<@Terkhen>as part of the null video driver description
06:11<@planetmaker>peter1138, it makes sense IMHO in the command line help
06:12<@Terkhen>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/553/
06:12<@peter1138>it's a hardly a common requirement
06:13<@planetmaker>so is using the null video driver
06:13<@peter1138>someone who knows they want to do that should've read the readme
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06:14<@planetmaker>confess, peter1138, you take joy in "rtfm, you lazy <whatever>" ;-)
06:14<@Terkhen>it's the quickest way to answer a question :P
06:17<@planetmaker>"To see all startup options available to you, start OpenTTD with the ./openttd -h" option. This might help you tweak some of the settings." ;-)
06:21<@Terkhen>"null" is describer later, IMO it should go in the null video driver description
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06:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, parameters available to each driver should be documented in that section
06:23<@peter1138>yeah
06:23<@peter1138>extmidi could do with it too
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>exactly
06:23*peter1138 discovers that ctrl-end gets to the end of irssi's backlog
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06:58<Eddi|zuHause>mäh... nmlc takes ages
07:00<@planetmaker>with FIRS it takes about three times as long as nforenum/grfcodec took in order to compile the version prior to conversion to NML
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>> time make
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>real 1m25.212s
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>user 1m21.103s
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>sys 0m3.907s
07:02<@Yexo>real 0m25.694s
07:02<@Yexo>user 0m18.250s
07:02<@Yexo>sys 0m1.220s
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>this is CETS
07:05<@peter1138>optimise run time, not compile time
07:05<@Yexo>ah, I assumed FIRS
07:05<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: if the makefile has the -c flag set you can disable that while developing
07:05<@Yexo>cropping sprites takes some extra time
07:05<@planetmaker>hm... ogfx+airports takes some time here, too ;-)
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: yes, optimise the run time of the compiler ;)
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: planetmaker knows the makefile magic... i have no clue
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>i just type make
07:07<@Yexo>it's not set
07:07<@peter1138>:p
07:07<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, make NMLFLAGS=-c
07:07<@planetmaker>or whatever :-)
07:07<@planetmaker>or nothing
07:07<@planetmaker>yes, -c is not set by default. I wonder whether I should
07:07<@Yexo>nothing is faster, including -c might result in a smaller grf
07:08<@Yexo>faster as in compiles faster
07:08<@planetmaker>Or whether I should only add -c to releases :-)
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, release sounds fine
07:08<@Yexo>yes, but we'll have to keep that in mind
07:08<@planetmaker>yup
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>CETS sprites would very probably benefit from -c
07:09<@planetmaker>might trip incorrectly dealt-with sprites
07:09<@Yexo>it might result in subtle bugs that not reproduce able without -c
07:09<@planetmaker>yup
07:09<@planetmaker>that's what makes me hesitant
07:09<@planetmaker>I'll surely forget - and wonder
07:09<@Yexo>for CETS it's fine
07:09<@Yexo>the only problems that will arise are with parent/child-sprites in spritelayouts were the parent sprite is cropped
07:10<@planetmaker>true. Unlikely in vehicle sets :-)
07:10<@planetmaker>uh.... we should be VERY careful indeed adding that to FIRS
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07:11*Yexo wonders what eddi is doing with cets that makes the compile time so long
07:12<@planetmaker>Yexo, it has a few hundret engines, with 24(?) * n views each
07:12<@Yexo>hmm, final grf size: 3.4Mb
07:13<@planetmaker>I'm not surprised ;-)
07:14<@Terkhen>it already has so many engines?
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>the really complicated stuff isn't even done yet
07:14<@planetmaker>maybe not hundrets... but...
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: the engines are autogenerated from the tracking table
07:14<@Yexo>"make NML_FLAGS=-c" results in a 2.3Mb grf
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>(with dummy graphics)
07:14<@Terkhen>nice :P
07:14<@Yexo>so yes, cropping is very useful
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: even after cropping, lots of redundancy is left
07:15<@planetmaker>Terkhen, the tracking table has roughly 300+x vehicles
07:16<@planetmaker>@calc 2300000/330
07:16<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 6969.6969697
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07:16<@planetmaker>7kByte per vehicle is not that bad, including graphics
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>it's likely going to get worse ;)
07:18<@planetmaker>there can be only one (direction)
07:19<@planetmaker>well, we should not worry about that really
07:19<@planetmaker>only when it "destroys" OpenTTD ;-)
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07:25*Eddi|zuHause could use a callback to set the anchor point of the sprite
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09:43<@Yexo>given a function: void f(int arg[3]) { ...}, is it possible to call it like this: f({3, 2, 5}); (I know this doesn't work, but is there syntax that does?)
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>not that i know of...
09:48<__ln__>not quite, but given that call syntax it is possible to declare a function matching it in C++0x.
09:48<@Yexo>yes, I know, unfortunately I can't use C++0x
09:48<Eddi|zuHause>i thought that's called C++11 nowadays?
09:49<__ln__>it should be called, i suppose
09:55<valhallasw>Yexo: maybe something like f(int x[]={3,2,5})?
09:55<valhallasw>although I guess initializations are not assignments
09:56<@Yexo>valhallasw: thanks, but that doesn't work either
10:00<__ln__>it's not possible, i think i would have heard about it during all these years if it was.
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10:54<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i think changing offset of sprites needs to be done in something callback 36-ish that is called every movement step
10:58<@peter1138>write openttd in nfo
10:58<@planetmaker>lol, CB36-ish every movement step?
10:59<@planetmaker>can I have BlueGene, too?
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i think some parts of the code already do that
11:02<@Yexo>that doesn't mean it's a good idea to introduce a new callback that is called for every vehicle on every tick
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: better than every drawing cycle
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, that may depend on map size and vehicle count
11:03<@Yexo>how is that better?
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11:04<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: but everything called less often is defeating the intended purpose
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>and if you introduce a callback flag, it won't even affect performance that much, if no appropriate grf is loaded
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>and if it is used, it is not worse than a vehicle set using the motion counter for animation
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11:28*Eddi|zuHause wonders about running sounds
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>2-cylinders: pfff-pfff, 3-cylinders: pfff-tschk-tschk, 4-cylinders: pfff-tschk-pfff-tschk (or similar)
11:30<@planetmaker>:-)
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>number of cylinders is already in the tracking table
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>in the TE calculation
11:52<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22895 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/wnd_quartz.mm: -Add: [OSX] Alternative code for the API calls deprecated in OSX 10.6 in the quartz video driver
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22896 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt korean.txt polish.txt portuguese.txt spanish.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: korean - 1 changes by junho2813
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: polish - 3 changes by wojteks86
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: portuguese - 1 changes by JayCity
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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13:58<Wolf01>hello
13:59<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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14:08<andythenorth>evening
14:09<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:10<andythenorth>yay
14:10<andythenorth>new egrvts forthcoming
14:10<andythenorth>persuade him to code it properly :P
14:12<andythenorth>egrvts is coded properly
14:12<andythenorth>but not maintainably
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14:13<@Terkhen>maintainability is overrated (as long as it is coded perfectly and no one adds new features to OpenTTD)
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14:28<andythenorth>hmm
14:28<andythenorth>13 million bananas downloads
14:28<andythenorth>of newgrfs
14:28<andythenorth>it's not a small number
14:29<frosch123>yeah, compare that to 125 downloads of rc1 yesterday :p
14:29*SpComb recalls his initial openttd + curl concept gui
14:30<SpComb>well, libcurl
14:33<@Alberth>for 100 000 users, that'd be 130 newgrfs per user
14:34<@Terkhen>:P
14:34<@Terkhen>there must be a lot of people that downloads everything
14:36<andythenorth>are there 100k users?
14:36*andythenorth thinks there are about 20k-25k users on a rolling average
14:37<andythenorth>many of which will be short-time users
14:37<frosch123>that would mean the average user only plays for one week
14:37<frosch123>and then never again
14:38<andythenorth>what's the number behind that? I am just going on downloads of my grfs, which *might* not be reliable :D
14:38<frosch123>https://secure.openttd.org/www/en/stats
14:38<@Terkhen>heh, 250k for 1.0.5
14:39<frosch123>Terkhen: it has not yet catched 0.6.3
14:39<@Terkhen>:)
14:39<@Terkhen>if 0.6.x releases followed the same pattern than the current ones, 0.6.3 had advantage :P
14:39<frosch123>and maybe in a year 1.0.0 overtakes :p
14:40<frosch123>Terkhen: if you use that measurement, then 1.0.0 is the best by far
14:40<@Terkhen>true :)
14:41<@Terkhen>people went crazy with that one
14:41<frosch123>yeah, it almost broke the server :p
14:42<@Alberth>andythenorth: RB once made that estimate of 100K users
14:43<andythenorth>we should build 'ottd phone hom'
14:43<andythenorth>home /s
14:43<andythenorth>but users seem not to like that :P
14:43*andythenorth turns off all 'apple phone home' stuff
14:45<@Alberth>we are very happy with you 'phoning home' here :p
14:46*Alberth hugs andythenorth
14:55-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
14:56-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
15:02*andythenorth shuns physical contact :P
15:05<andythenorth>is there to be any coding today?
15:05<@Alberth>I am coding, but for a different program :p
15:05-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:07-!-_1009 [~chatzilla@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
15:08*andythenorth experiences boredom
15:08<andythenorth>this is unusual
15:10<_1009>You can explain me best practices about calculating the spot where a user clicks in the cheat window?
15:10*_1009 is sort of puzzled
15:13<frosch123>is it a old window which does complete custom drawing? :p
15:14<_1009>Eh, I think so. In the other code I'm looking at it's using uint offset = 10 + GetStringBoundingBox(buf).width; all over the place
15:15<_1009>and that offset number keeps jumping... it sometimes differs by 16 even .__o"
15:19<frosch123>all over the place?
15:19<frosch123>i only see it once
15:19<frosch123>to draw the company coloured icon after the text
15:21<_1009>Right. I put another 2 instances of it in there, but it was just an illustration of how the button clicks are calculated (I think)
15:22<_1009>Anyway, the real problem is that GetStringBoundingBox() doesn't return just one number... it varies a little with every click. What I am trying to do is putting two arrows at the end of a string, where you can select a company which you would like to delete
15:22<_1009>And placing those arrows isn't too hard, but determining whether they have been clicked on is tricky (for me)
15:23<frosch123>if the length varies, then maybe the string uses parameters, which you did not set?
15:24<_1009>It uses parameters, but I did set them the first time... do I have to set them again for GetStringBoundingBox() the second time?
15:24<_1009>Anyway, thanks for the tip, I'm going to look into that.
15:25<@Alberth>line 342: if (!IsInsideMM(x, 20, 40)) return; means 'buttons run from 20 to 40 horizontally', and '(x >= 30)' decides which button
15:25<_1009>Uhu, that's what I figured Alberth
15:25<_1009>The thing is, I want to introduce new buttons, after the string (so not in between 20 and 40)
15:26<@Alberth>of course RTL languages do stuff the other way around :)
15:26<_1009>Where you can select an AI to stop (equivalent to the stop_ai command)
15:26<_1009>Yea I figured that too, I made a note in the source code for supporting RTL
15:26<@Alberth>why not add a regular button, much easier
15:26<_1009>Because there need to be two buttons, one for selecting the right AI, one for stopping it
15:27<_1009>I guess.
15:27<@Alberth>2 regular buttons? :p
15:27<_1009>In that case I have no idea what you mean by a "regular" button :P mind you, this is one of the first pieces of OpenTTD software that I've seen
15:27<@Alberth>with nice text 'stop AI', which gets added to the translation system, and causes auto-resizing of the buttons
15:28<@Alberth>the pressable things in the intro menu would be a good example, I think :)
15:29<@Alberth>although it was one of the first windows to be converted, so it may be a bit non-optimal
15:30<@Alberth>eg line 189 intro_gui.cpp
15:31<_1009>Hm. But that'd mean I'd have to convert all of the cheat menu things, and I just want to get familiair with the code a little so I can go on with another problem
15:32<@Alberth>why? just keep the current widget, and add two button at the bottom, wouldn't that work?
15:32-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
15:33<_1009>I guess so, but it'd be so /different/ from everything else... I guess...
15:33-!-Zuu is now known as Guest8990
15:34<@Alberth>the cheat window is sort of a weird window :)
15:35<_1009>Haha, no matter what I do I guess I'm still keeping it weird, new buttons or old buttons.
15:35<_1009>The initializing a variable thing worked though, the width is at least constant now.
15:37<@Alberth>I am not sure stopping an AI should be considered a cheat though
15:38<frosch123>Alberth: currently it is a console command :p
15:38<frosch123>_1009: you could also only put a single bool switch in the cheat menu to enable the cheat
15:38<@Alberth>yes, and as such, I can stop an AI without cheating
15:38<frosch123>then put stop buttons into the company windows
15:38-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd
15:39<frosch123>e.g. the change-production cheat also does not require you to select a industry in the cheat gui
15:39<_1009>It's been suggested by planetmaker, I'm not sure either. If it's going to get in the trunk or not, I don't really care, for me it's just to practice C++ and to prepare a little for AIAirport-API
15:39<_1009>frosch123: shit, that's a good idea.
15:39<_1009>fml
15:39*_1009 discards current code XD
15:39<frosch123>well, i also voted for making it a cheat
15:39<frosch123>as bankrupting opponents with a single click is silly :p
15:40-!-TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
15:40*Alberth was considering using the AI config window
15:41-!-Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
15:41<_1009>AI config window is probably even easier, because it only lists AIs instead of all companies
15:41<frosch123>or that, would also allow you to start a new ai of your choice
15:41<_1009>Alright I'm first going to look into how buttons are added to changing production
15:42-!-DarkSide [~name@dslb-088-077-205-242.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
15:42<DarkSide>hi folks, anyone here they talk german ?
15:44<pjpe>ja
15:44<pjpe>sehr gut
15:44<pjpe>nein!
15:44<DarkSide>hi
15:44<DarkSide>fein
15:44<pjpe>i learn all my german from enemy territory
15:44<DarkSide>^^
15:44<DarkSide>np
15:44<DarkSide>i wisper at you, ok ?
15:44<andythenorth>DarkSide: there are native germans here
15:45<andythenorth>if you poke them a bit, they might answer :P
15:45*andythenorth isn't sure which ones are native german, and which are other northern-europe, swiss, etc :P
15:46<pjpe>yeah i don't actually know german
15:46<pjpe>except two or three phrases from enemy territory
15:46<pjpe>which i will just shout at you over and over
15:46<DarkSide><--- nativ german ;) over 20 years ago i have lern english xD
15:46<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess you are sure they are continental :p
15:46<DarkSide>learn ^^
15:46<@Alberth>today sounds like a good day to practice your English again :)
15:46<andythenorth>frosch123: I'm not even sure of that :P
15:46<andythenorth>some of them are spookily english-sounding
15:47<andythenorth>sometimes I wonder if eddi is from essex :P
15:47<andythenorth>dunno why
15:47<andythenorth>in my experience, germans tend to speak and write english better than the english
15:47<frosch123>hmm only 18 years for me to learn english
15:48<@Alberth>andythenorth: oh probably. Foreign people learning Dutch are way better at Dutch grammar too :)
15:48<frosch123>andythenorth: if you have browsed german forums, you would also think that english men speak better german than the germans :p
15:48<pjpe>germans are probably more pedantic about speaking it correctly
15:49<pjpe>while english people and north americans just go hog wild with slang and weird phrases
15:49<pjpe>like a bat out of hell
15:49<DarkSide>pjpe look at wisper pls
15:49-!-pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-186-033.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd
15:50<frosch123>well, people from us east coast remain to speak the easiest understandable english
15:50<frosch123>err, west coast...
15:50<pjpe>fuck the west coast
15:50<DarkSide>and with out slang
15:50*andythenorth learnt german once
15:50<andythenorth>not succesfully
15:52<andythenorth>most educated english people of a certain age know the answer to
15:52<andythenorth>"wie komme ich am besten zum rathaus?"
15:52<DarkSide>immer dem gruft geruch nach gehen xD
15:53*frosch123 would suspect monthy python, but does not know the joke
15:53<andythenorth>it's not a joke :P
15:53<andythenorth>the answer is
15:53<DarkSide>me too
15:54<andythenorth>"nemen sie die erste strasse links. Der rathaus is auf dem linken seite"
15:55<andythenorth>we all had the same german text book
15:55<frosch123>well, is is a monthy python sketch?
15:55<DarkSide>das rathaus, nicht der
15:55<andythenorth>for some reason this all most of us can remember from 3 years of german :P
15:55<frosch123>oh, a text book :p
15:55<frosch123>so, i shall tell you stories about kate's flat?
15:56<frosch123>though most memorisable about learning the clock: it's two to two
15:56<andythenorth>well we aren't doing anything better :P
15:57<@Alberth>don't remember the first German lesson, but the first English was about Keith playing in the sand :)
15:57-!-bryjen [~bryjen@76.92.84.107] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:57<DarkSide>i looking for some help, to understand the openttd signals
15:58<frosch123>actualy my english teacher in 8th grade was a native brittish. she was usually quite shocked about what kind of english we learn at school :p
15:58<@Alberth>DarkSide: just post the question here
15:59-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95.28.154.94] has joined #openttd
15:59-!-sortkrudt [~sortkrudt@158.84-48-221.nextgentel.com] has joined #openttd
15:59<DarkSide>i search an tuturial ( best in germen ) to leanr that signals do and can combineted with other signals
15:59<@Alberth>DarkSide: http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals <-- know that page? it looks like there is a German translation too
15:59<DarkSide>sry, but that are crap ....
15:59<_1009>I'm going offline again, thanks for the help Alberth, frosch123. Will continue working on that next time :3
15:59<frosch123>DarkSide: http://uwe.s2000.at/ttdx/signal/index.php?lang=de&filter=ottd
16:00<@Alberth>http://kokolokus.de/?s=blog&v=5 <-- or this one
16:00<DarkSide>they i know too ...
16:00<sortkrudt>hard to be a german i guess
16:00-!-_1009 [~chatzilla@b85159.upc-b.chello.nl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.1/20110830092941]]
16:00<frosch123>we regulary recommend those two
16:00<frosch123>they are the best we know :)
16:01<DarkSide>they all dont help too andstanding, combination the signals, too rule the trains ..... :-(
16:02<frosch123>are you searching beginner stuff or advanced stuff? :p
16:02<@Alberth>if you post a picture with an actual problem here or at the forum, I am sure people can explain to you what you want to know
16:02<DarkSide>yup, that i do
16:03<DarkSide>@frosch123
16:03<DarkSide>beginer
16:03<@Alberth>and it would be nice if you fix the wiki too, we are too advanced to understand how the page is broken
16:04<@Alberth>that is, things we consider trivial may be a big stumbling block for you
16:04<@Alberth>but since we don't know, we cannot fix it
16:04<DarkSide>ill do that, iam registert on the openttd wiki and make me my owne sandbox in my profile
16:05<@Alberth>thanks
16:05<DarkSide>the bigest problems are all the very smal grafics of the signal
16:06<DarkSide>i wish to have some bigger resulution in the wiki of them
16:07<DarkSide>the ingame snapshots quality is crap ...
16:08<Hirundo>In-game screenshots (Ctrl+S, png) are lossless
16:08<@Alberth>perhaps add a picture of the signal gui, and show with lines or so which signal is which?
16:09<DarkSide>easy english pls, iam nativ german not english ...
16:10<DarkSide>and i have a very long time ago learn english
16:10<sortkrudt>does a larger trainstation get the goods more quickly?
16:10<DarkSide>that too
16:10<sortkrudt>off*
16:10<frosch123>sortkrudt: the train may not be longer than the station
16:11<frosch123>the rest does not matter
16:11<sortkrudt>Ok. I have this twelvestation, and have seriuos problems with effectivity. To much waiting, and long waiting for exit. any ideas, or pointing direction on construction of an effective one?
16:12-!-Guest8990 is now known as Zuu
16:12<@Alberth>DarkSide: I was suggesting to add a picture of the signal gui next to the signals. Then draw a line between each signal and the button at the gui. It can also be indicated in another way of course.
16:12-!-KritiK_ [~Maxim@95-28-154-94.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
16:12<Zuu>Isn't a byte >= 0 by definition?
16:13<@Alberth>yep
16:13<Zuu>Good, that was my though but I found a >= 0 check in OpenTTD :-)
16:13<@Alberth>typedef unsigned char byte;
16:13<Zuu>It is however for a type that is typedef:ed as byte, so it could be there to be strictly clear
16:13<frosch123>sortkrudt: less junctions
16:14<frosch123>more bridges
16:14<frosch123>http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2008/02/28/station-balancing/
16:14<@Alberth>Zuu: usually compiler would warn about 'test always true' or so
16:15<Zuu>AIAirport::IsAirportInformationAvailable have a check "type >= 0" where type is indirectly a byte.
16:15<frosch123>Zuu: a byte is >= 0, but not a char
16:15<DarkSide>more signal pics or littlebit smaler as they ---> http://wiki.openttd.org/images/5/5e/Exit_presignal.png
16:15<sortkrudt>frosch123. thx. common problem eh?
16:15<frosch123>the signedness of char is undefined
16:16<DarkSide>but that in the tuturials
16:16<frosch123>sortkrudt: it's the common site for people needing more than 6 platforms
16:16<frosch123>:p
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16:17-!-KritiK_ is now known as KritiK
16:20<sortkrudt>Yea. well. I had this great idea of diong oil, goods, fruit, corn and food at the same space
16:20<sortkrudt>i've started in 2010, and now in 2040s, and got maglev and everything, but not fun when you have to wait so long on the main-station in my game
16:24<V453000>:D
16:24<V453000>:D
16:24<V453000>"people needing more than 6 platforms" is an awesome definition :D
16:24<sortkrudt>wtf. most people needs more than 6 platforms!
16:24<sortkrudt>at some ponit in the game
16:24<V453000>yes one would think so
16:25<V453000>but there are also people who call themselves playing "realistically"
16:25<V453000>I tend to try to ignore them
16:25<sortkrudt>realistically?
16:25<sortkrudt>i see.
16:25<V453000>yes, make their railways similar to how they are in "real life"
16:25<V453000>honestly: absolute bullshit
16:25<sortkrudt>well. i think they loose alot of the game then
16:26<frosch123>my biggest station in the last game had 10 platforms
16:26<V453000>exactly
16:26<frosch123>but it was actually split into 4 parts
16:26<sortkrudt>mine is twelve but its still fucked up. lolz
16:27<frosch123>anyway, as i usually play with wagon speed limits and without maglev, i do not need so many platforms compared to the number of lines
16:27<V453000>hmm, yes
16:27<sortkrudt>why not maglev?
16:27<frosch123>ugly
16:27<frosch123>i usualy stop once steam engines run out :p
16:28<sortkrudt>you liek pink as ur business colour aswell?
16:28<sortkrudt>he he
16:28<V453000>I like maglev but just as much as any other trains :) The best thing about maglev is that they show how stupid PBS is :)
16:28<sortkrudt>what is pbs?
16:28<V453000>the red signals
16:28<V453000>path based signals aka pretty bad signalling
16:28<sortkrudt>how are they stupid?
16:29<frosch123>sortkrudt: they solve stuff automatic, and thus disallow the player to control stuff in detail
16:29<V453000>if I put aside their technical issues such as trouble with choosing paths correctly, some unexpectable bugs, and what not, they simply make the user think much simplier and thus have problems with improving his networks over time
16:29<V453000>yes, basically what frosch said :)
16:30<sortkrudt>I see.
16:30<sortkrudt>Pre-signals ftw?
16:30<V453000>exactly
16:30<V453000>if you want to become good, then that is the path
16:30<sortkrudt>yea. looks like thats the way.
16:30<sortkrudt>I often have problems they going over their junction, and lbocks every other stuff
16:30<sortkrudt>so the station wont be filled with trains
16:30<frosch123>sortkrudt: you should download a coop savegame from their archive, and check in advance if you want to become like that :p
16:30<sortkrudt>and that happends even with pre- and exit signals.
16:31<V453000>or just joins us playing :) best way to learn that way
16:31<V453000>-s
16:31<@Terkhen>frosch123: I think that kind of madness is born, not made :P
16:31-!-JVassie [~James@2.27.99.14] has joined #openttd
16:31<frosch123>might be :)
16:31<V453000>yes
16:31<sortkrudt>I'm just addicted to this game
16:31<V453000>Terkhen, more true than you might realize
16:32<@Terkhen>:P
16:32<sortkrudt>I fell in love with this in the 90s. Left it, and then started recently again.
16:32<sortkrudt>I'm having a break due my pain in my hand :p
16:32<V453000>sortkrudt: then definitely join #openttdcoop :P
16:32<@Terkhen>^ that's the story of my life until I started coding for it
16:32-!-jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-244-221.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:32<@Terkhen>lately I have been more addicted to civilization IV
16:33<V453000>I started drawing some sprites so my openttd efforts reduced a bit luckily :d
16:33-!-Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
16:33<sortkrudt>lolz! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fT-u_bKIRXE&feature=player_embedded cracy shit!
16:34<Zuu>Hmm, is it a feature that current OpenGFX+ Airports have a metropolitan airport view that looks like the city airport?
16:34<V453000>sortkrudt: yes that is it :)
16:34<Zuu>Eg that aircrafts can take off on grass :-p
16:34<Zuu>And drive into the radar without getting damaged :-)
16:35<sortkrudt>So, what is your main goal in-game - money or style?
16:35<Prof_Frink>Ludicrous amounts of money.
16:35<V453000>hard to say, effectiveness probably
16:35<V453000>money is nothing
16:35<V453000>and style ... partially
16:35<Prof_Frink>chick are free
16:35<@Terkhen>Zuu: sounds like a bug :P
16:35<Prof_Frink>+s
16:36<@Terkhen>sortkrudt: trying to play for an hour without thinking about something to code
16:36<sortkrudt>Well. most effective is to do pure oil/goods, then balance with trains and airport
16:36<Zuu>I do however know that they have commits saying that 4 rotations for most airports are on the way.
16:36<sortkrudt>Terkhen: what do you mean aobut code?
16:36<@Terkhen>coding the game :P
16:36<sortkrudt>oh. well
16:36<sortkrudt>I dont code so. that wouldnt be hard
16:36<sortkrudt>:)
16:37<frosch123>oh, i forgot to mention that i usually play in hilly or mountainious
16:37<frosch123>so, no big hubs for me :p
16:37<frosch123>always chaos
16:37<Zuu>Hilly means loveley scenery.
16:37<V453000>arr
16:38<Zuu>Last game I got a nice looking scene in Toyland :-)
16:38<Prof_Frink>Hilly means making full use of the "level land" tool.
16:38<@Terkhen>eGRVTS 2 will make me go back to those hilly maps again :P
16:38<sortkrudt>lolz. voting system and everything.
16:38<@Terkhen>I have been testing it and it works more nicely regarding realistic acceleration
16:41<frosch123>hmm, what are those arbitrary airports doing in that coop video?
16:41<frosch123> they look as if they are from an ai
16:41<V453000>making money
16:42<V453000>aircraft makes a whole lot of money while not damaging the map
16:42<V453000>as in, making industries grow
16:43<sortkrudt>aircraft is i-win-buttonz of tycoon
16:43<sortkrudt>he he
16:43<@Terkhen>yup
16:43<V453000>well, point is
16:43<V453000>you cant win
16:43<V453000>because you play against yourself
16:43<sortkrudt>so you allways loose? He he
16:44<V453000>not entirely
16:44<sortkrudt>depends what your out for. I'm strictly against airplane due the fact of easy cash in. I want to do everything by train
16:44<V453000>you fulfill some of your ideas and next time you try to improve them
16:44<sortkrudt>and substitute with trailers when need more goods/food
16:44<V453000>cash is not a subject sooner or later
16:44<sortkrudt>no. close to never.
16:45<V453000>techniques and logics of how certain parts of network make for much more entertainment than jus making money
16:45<sortkrudt>when techniques are in order there will be heavy money income tho.
16:47<V453000>so what :)
16:47<sortkrudt>alot of cash is a sign of effectivity.
16:47<sortkrudt>thats why
16:47<V453000>when you play for 100 years you can afford anything anyway
16:47<V453000>partially
16:47<sortkrudt>yes.
16:48<V453000>but maybe a lot of cash is also a sign of using the fastest trains, delivering as far as possible, and what ever else, which is not really saying the network is good
16:48<sortkrudt>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvMzHHGmkB0&feature=related
16:49<sortkrudt>I've read some of the game-technics, and with effectively getting stuff you higher the risc of gaining amount of stuff produced, thus, allowing more and more trains.
16:49<sortkrudt>I just want to stuff most trains on the same system flowing
16:49<sortkrudt>I have 88 trains, with 4 carrages+train and the system just stopped at my main station.
16:50<sortkrudt>would love to increase this. my main goal.
16:50<V453000>:) good
16:50*Zuu got an alergic response from seeing someone defining capacity without the per time unit part of the definition.
16:50<sortkrudt>I dont know. i just remember back in 90s I just had two train, and some side-tracks. luls.
16:51<sortkrudt>what you mean Zuu?
16:51<Zuu>The amount of trains that are assigned to a station says nothing about which flow it can handle.
16:52<sortkrudt>No, but many stations are connected to the same 'system'.
16:52<sortkrudt>And yes, its the flow I'm talking about.
16:53<V453000>just dont mention amount of trains
16:53<Zuu>I would define flow as [number of vehicles/trains/pcu/etc.] / [some time unit]
16:53<Zuu>(pcu = passenger car unit)
16:53<V453000>or "amount of full lines incoming to the station"
16:53<V453000>that is ... time considered already
16:54<sortkrudt>I can accept that definition.
16:54<Zuu>Possible an even more interesting definition is to use # of tonnes / time unit.
16:54<frosch123>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6rxZ6ctO7A <- awesome, some guy talking eleven minutes about ottd settings :)
16:55<Zuu>However, it is true that OpenTTD currently don't provide any easy way of getting a time-dependent measure of how many trains per time unit a station can handle.
16:55<sortkrudt>well. I watch often how much food, and how much goods are produced per months.
16:55<V453000>well, any real definitions are quite failing bcause there are so many different train sets, ways how to build a network etc.
16:55<frosch123>while he actually seems to know what he is talking about he gets totally lost in the mass somewhere in the middle :p
16:55<V453000>frosch123: I could talk about the settings for days :P
16:56<sortkrudt>oh noes. gemran language.
16:56<frosch123>V453000: i do not even want to know :p
16:56<sortkrudt>bist du german frosch123?
16:56<Zuu>sortkrudt: True, the amount of production / month is probably one of the better measurements of the capacity of a station in OpenTTD.
16:56<V453000>:D
16:56<frosch123>sortkrudt: it's english enough
16:57<frosch123>though he is obviously german
16:57<sortkrudt>he he
16:57<sortkrudt>yea
16:57<frosch123>and he uses gentoo if i heard it correctly
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16:57<sortkrudt>http://cdn.pimpmyspace.org/media/pms/c/kq/dx/wb/ters_81_34.jpg
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17:02<frosch123>he hasn't found the news options though
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17:06<frosch123>the second video in that video tutorial definitely suggests we should disable all news by default :p
17:06<V453000>:D
17:07<frosch123>stupid news constantly popping up, and the user just resigned to turn the off or so
17:09<Wolf01>'night
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17:09<sortkrudt>seems like this guy is a realistic builder
17:09<sortkrudt>ze german one.
17:09<sortkrudt>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDQeDILW3qM&feature=related
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17:11<Zuu>Oh, he managed to include 2 of my AIs in his settings :-)
17:11<Zuu>Duno if that is good or bad
17:11<sortkrudt>which is your ais?
17:12<Zuu>CluelessPlus, PAXLink, TownCars, TutorialAI and IdleMore
17:12<Zuu>(I hope I didn't forget one :-p)
17:12<Zuu>I also have a library - SuperLib
17:12<frosch123>too bad he uses streetcars, not towncars :)
17:12<Zuu>At least StreetCars is a fork of TownCars.
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17:15<Zuu>OTTD 1.2 movie: "maybe if you don't know what X-com is you should not own a computer"
17:15<frosch123>is totally flabbergasted... that guy knows what variety distribution does, but he does not know the news settings :p
17:16<frosch123>our settings are just bad :)
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17:29<__ln__>would be cool if google maps could optionally show historical borders
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17:37<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... anybody has a clue how i can influence linux'es oom-behaviour?
17:37<SpComb>adjust to what?
17:37<SpComb>not kill your irssi?
17:37<Eddi|zuHause2>the only thing it currently does is get stick for half an hour, not even reacting to keyboard input
17:37<Eddi|zuHause2>*stuck
17:38<TrueBrain>use another scheduler
17:38<TrueBrain>what was it called ... BFS?
17:39<Prof_Frink>Get more m so you don't run oo it?
17:39<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause2: swapoff -a
17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>__ln__: happens without swap as well. just earlier
17:40<Eddi|zuHause2>TrueBrain: what does the scheduler have to do with it?
17:40<SpComb>non-responsiveness sounds like scheduler issues
17:40<@peter1138>swapon /dev/sda
17:40<TrueBrain>euh, if your system becomes non-responsive, it is a scheduler issue :)
17:40<__ln__>yes, disabling swap doesn't fix the problem but the nonresponsiveness is over within minutes rather than half an hour to hour
17:40<TrueBrain>which is mostly caused by I/O
17:41<TrueBrain>which is caused by using diskswap :)
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17:41<SpComb>netswap
17:41<__ln__>TrueBrain: i think we are talking about running out of memory
17:41<TrueBrain>otherwise, I wonder why you want to control the OOM behavoir ;)
17:41<@peter1138>i noticed that disk io really bogs things down these days
17:41<@Terkhen>good night
17:41<@peter1138>it's depressing :(
17:41<TrueBrain>peter1138: get an SSD :P
17:41*SpComb is about to order an Intel 320 120GB
17:41<@peter1138>not really
17:42<@peter1138>while my kernel is waiting for data, it should be doing other things!
17:42<TrueBrain>it does :p
17:42*Prof_Frink is about to order the Executor
17:42<@peter1138>it doesn't! it sits there with high io wait :S
17:42<@peter1138>i'm sure it's only been bad like this since SATA
17:42<Eddi|zuHause2>i've witnessed 560% wait cycles at one time
17:43<TrueBrain>peter1138: it always has been an issue :p
17:43<Eddi|zuHause2>(of 6 cores)
17:43<TrueBrain>but seriously, switching to a more modern scheduler at least fixes the non-responsiveness
17:43<@peter1138>TrueBrain, not to the extent that a single dd can cause the rest of the system to essentially lock up
17:43<TrueBrain>doesn't fix the cause at all, of course
17:43<TrueBrain>but at least you can ssh and stuff :p
17:43<TrueBrain>peter1138: I did it on 80486, but that might just be me :D
17:44<Eddi|zuHause2>i'll give it a few more minutes, then i kill the computer...
17:44<TrueBrain>we use the scheduler on production shared web servers, because people tend to try to make deadlocks :P
17:44<Eddi|zuHause2>but it can't be the intention that a "simple" OOM forces me to restart
17:44-!-DOUK [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-83-190.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
17:44<TrueBrain>means that both we can still ssh to the box, and other users notice almost nothing
17:45<TrueBrain>blame the OOM Killer
17:45<TrueBrain>one of the more poor things a modern linux kernel does
17:45<TrueBrain>it keeps killing the wrong fucking process :(
17:45<Eddi|zuHause2>hm... i've not really had the wrong process killed yet
17:45<TrueBrain>if it was the right, then why are you still OOM? :D
17:46<Eddi|zuHause2>when it finally got to actually kill a process, it was usually the one screwing up
17:46<TrueBrain>anyway, good chance that it killed a process vital to your keyboard input :D I have seen that happening ...
17:46<TrueBrain>ugh @ X11 :(
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17:48<Eddi|zuHause2>Wikipedia: "The Brain Fuck Scheduler (BFS) is not related to the programming language Brainfuck" :p
17:48<TrueBrain>ghehe
17:48<TrueBrain>and I am not sure about the name ... it was a confusing one .. I keep forgetting :P
17:49<@peter1138>it also won't hit main line :S
17:52<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: and the easiest solution always is: don't run OOM :D
17:52<DarkSide>is a wiki administrator here ?
17:53<Eddi|zuHause2>TrueBrain: can't always ensure that ;)
17:53<TrueBrain>you fail then :D
17:53<@planetmaker>DarkSide: you might as well ask your real question
17:53-!-douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-83-190.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
17:54<DarkSide>can we add a new Category in the wiki ? called [[Category:Signals_Image]]
17:54<DarkSide>they only for grafics
17:55<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22897 /trunk/src/ (news_gui.cpp news_type.h): -Change: More suitable default news settings instead of everything on 'full'.
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17:56<frosch123>so, how can we add a bug which deletes the current news settings of every user from the config? :p
17:56<TrueBrain>don't tempt me frosch123 :P
17:56<DarkSide>move the news settings at /dev/null ;)
17:56<frosch123>TrueBrain: the goal is to only delete the news settings
17:56<frosch123>not the whole disk
17:57<TrueBrain>frosch123: aawwwhhh
17:57<TrueBrain>you sure?
17:57<frosch123>i am sure you would
17:57<Elukka>so, i haven't the slightest clue how to patch or compile (besides mucking about with buildottd which didn't seem to work) but i'd like a more recent version of openttd with cargodist
17:58<Elukka>the wiki page says it's compiled nightly but the most recent ones are from june while there are patch files from this month
17:58-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f55dd.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:58<Pinkbeast>Isn't the current Chill's newer than June?
17:59<Elukka>chill's?
17:59<Elukka>oh
17:59<Elukka>i need to check the dev forum more often
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18:01<Elukka>signals on bridges and tunnels
18:01<Elukka>mind, blown
18:01<pjpe>they work kinda shitty
18:01<@planetmaker>DarkSide: why does it need a separate category for signal images?
18:02<pjpe>sometimes they bug out
18:02-!-douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-83-190.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:02<Pinkbeast>Yeah, I gave up on that when I got two trains stuck in a tunnel for no readily apparent reason.
18:02<pjpe>and i can't figure out what the point of the speed limit signals are
18:02<DarkSide>4 shorter image searching and using
18:02<pjpe>it doesn't seem to affect pathfinding
18:03<sortkrudt>May be a stupid question, but I have this problem with a train going over a junction after the pre-signal even tho an exit-signal is read, and its blocking the whoel junction. is this a bug?
18:03<Pinkbeast>sort> Got a screenshot?
18:03<sortkrudt>yes. u got any site where I can easy upload & post?
18:03<@Yexo>planetmaker: failure is due to german language file
18:04<@Yexo>{P t en} {NUM} should be {P 0 t en} {NUM} I think
18:04<@planetmaker>o_O
18:04<Elukka>what's up with the cargodist binaries not being automatically compiled as per the wiki anyhow?
18:04-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:04*Eddi|zuHause2 is sure TrueBrain is a secret descendant of the BOFH :p
18:04<@Yexo>Elukka: I don't know, but the wiki is in no way leading information
18:04<@planetmaker>thanks, Yexo. Will fix that immediately. I didn't yet notice
18:04<@Yexo>it might be correct, it might be outdated, it might be wrong for a few years
18:05<Elukka>right
18:05<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: why?
18:05<@Yexo>planetmaker: me neither, but the log in .cf was helpful :)
18:05<Eddi|zuHause2>TrueBrain: do i _really_ have to give proof? :p
18:05<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: I was talking about "secret"
18:06<Eddi|zuHause2>oh.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause2>right.
18:06<Eddi|zuHause2>:p
18:06<TrueBrain>:D
18:06<TrueBrain>you felt for thatone :D
18:06<TrueBrain>can't believe you did ... :P
18:06<sortkrudt>Pinkbeast: http://imgh.us/Honlia_Transport,_27._Mar_2046.jpg
18:06<Eddi|zuHause2>anyway, i'm gonna kill my computer now...
18:06<Elukka>some day i hope cargo destinations will make it to trunk
18:06<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause2: good luck
18:06<TrueBrain>Elukka: which version? :D
18:06<@planetmaker>should be fixed now
18:07<Pinkbeast>png is enormously superior to jpg for this job, but... where's the problematic junction/train?
18:07<TrueBrain>Yexo / planetmaker: how did it pass WT3.0?
18:07<Elukka>any version that's decent :P
18:07<DarkSide>(planetmaker): 4 shorter image searching and using
18:07<@Yexo>TrueBrain: no clue how WT3.0 validates
18:07<Pinkbeast>Oh, the one that's in the junction before "Huston"?
18:07<TrueBrain>Yexo: correctly, I hoped :P
18:07<@planetmaker>Elukka: the automatic compilation might have stopped / be broken when we moved to a new compile farm
18:08<pjpe>once a train enters that block of signals
18:08<pjpe>in between the entrance and exit signals
18:08<pjpe>all of the signals will turn red
18:08<TrueBrain>guess some things changed in strgen that WT3.0 doesn't know about :P
18:08<sortkrudt>Pinkbeast. Yes. I thought the pre-signal and exit would fix this
18:08<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: you should know ;-)
18:08<pjpe>you should change them all to path signals
18:08<Pinkbeast>The trains with invisible wagons do make things a tad more confusing
18:08<Elukka>that would explain it
18:08<@Yexo>TrueBrain: this didn't change recently at all
18:08<Elukka>would be nice if it got unbrokened eventually :P
18:08<sortkrudt>pjpe: but i had the same problem with path signals enter and exit.
18:08<Pinkbeast>Path signals would certainly improve it, but that train in the block shouldn't be there for all that
18:08-!-sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:08<@planetmaker>indeed it's just the old plural pragma used
18:08<TrueBrain>Yexo: 'recent' as in last year, I remember Rub talking about it a long time ago :p
18:08<@planetmaker>twice in a single string
18:08<pjpe>oh was that the problem
18:09<@planetmaker>that's older than a year
18:09<sortkrudt>No, i know, and its way to annoying, cause its waiting for a train with are waiting for stuff he cant get.
18:09<Pinkbeast>With path signals you wouldn't have the signals immediately before the platforms at all.
18:09<sortkrudt>pjpe, yea. well. i'm newb. dont be suprised :)
18:09<sortkrudt>it looks like its a timing problem.
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18:10<Pinkbeast>Ahhh. You have two-way signals there.
18:10<Elukka>path signals are a beautiful gift from god
18:10<sortkrudt>When path signals were made God had his best work day.
18:10<sortkrudt>Pinkbeast, is that relevant? :)
18:10<sortkrudt>I don't understand why.
18:11<Elukka>path signals and cargo destinations (because of the way they revolutionize passengers) are two things i can't play without anymore
18:11<Pinkbeast>Well, it's ages since I've used non-path signals, but I think one of the signals into the block has turned green and let that train in because one of the signals facing the other way was green because the waiting area closest to us is free.
18:12-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:13<Pinkbeast>Do trains ever travel back the other way? Surely not.
18:13<sortkrudt>No.
18:13<Pinkbeast>So I would make those one-way and see what happens.
18:13<sortkrudt>never happened.
18:13<sortkrudt>Ok.
18:13<Pinkbeast>... well, actually I would replace all the two-ways with path signals and remove the signals closest to the platforms altogether, but failing that...
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18:14<sortkrudt>"actually i would blow the whole thing and re-make it.."
18:15<Pinkbeast>Depends how much disruption you fancy in your network.
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18:16<Elukka>unrelated, but speaking of track design in general... i've found that on through stations and especially terminus stations, if there are 4 or more tracks on your line it's vastly better to alternate the directions of each track
18:16<Elukka>as in, not have left hand or right hand traffic
18:16<Elukka>line goes like
18:16<Elukka>---->
18:16<Elukka><----
18:16<Elukka>----->
18:16<Pinkbeast>Yes, you want LRLR not LLRR.
18:16-!-vb [~chatzilla@79.114.35.100] has joined #openttd
18:16<Elukka>yes that's a much less cumbersome way to put it
18:17<vb>anyone online?
18:17<Elukka>took me ages to realize
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18:17<@planetmaker>right... I guess I don't find info on how to create such category
18:17<SpComb>yeah, I discovered that as well
18:17<vb>i downlodead the firs 070 beta 1 files
18:17<vb>where to put them?
18:17<SpComb>alternating tracks at stations (both through and terminus) are awesome
18:17<Elukka>well, took me as long as it took for my networks to grow to such a point that the LLRR arrangement became my main bottleneck
18:17<SpComb>hard part is building the track infrastructure where you join all those together, mind :)
18:18<Ammler>vb: ~/.openttd/data
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18:18<SpComb>http://projects.qmsk.net/pngtile/screenshots/20091218/2002.png#17012:13837:0
18:18<sortkrudt>So weird. The train went into the junction and went straigth to the one which -exit-signal- said red, and blocked the whole junction
18:19<SpComb>two terminii, one through station, and two bypasses for above :p
18:19<Elukka>i realized the main problem was that trains on a terminus would enter on one side of the stations, then have to cross most of the tracks to get to the other side when they leave, blocking traffic
18:19<SpComb>with a five-track station and alternating lines, you can have four trains simultaneously exiting/entering the station
18:19<vb>ammler
18:19<Elukka>yeah
18:19<vb>not working
18:19<SpComb>and you only need one tile of track crossings on the station
18:20<SpComb>-> optimal
18:20<Ammler>vb: you need to unzip it
18:21<vb>oh
18:21<Pinkbeast>sortkrudt> Having made the suggested changes?
18:21<Ammler>only tar archives are possible
18:21-!-Guest9025 [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:22<Ammler>but the zip should have a folder, you can keep that
18:22<vb>it seems i need a nightly openttd
18:22<Elukka>i used this junction on a LRLR type line
18:22<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/intersection.png
18:22-!-JVassie [~James@2.27.99.14] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:22<Elukka>it works, but an obvious flaw is the length of the bridges
18:22<Ammler>vb: the newgrf should tell you that
18:23<Ammler>so does the release thread...
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18:23<vb>yay, rivers
18:23<Pinkbeast>Are these intentionally all entry pre-signals?
18:23<Elukka>no they're one way path signals
18:24<Pinkbeast>Oh, with unconventional graphics?
18:24<SpComb>my junctions are all 100% certified organically-grown
18:24<vb>what is the best trainset for firs 0.7.0?
18:24<Elukka>huh. i only just realized the entry presignal and one way path signal look almost identical
18:24<Elukka>maybe? i dunno what graphics i'm using there :D
18:25<Ammler>vb: every set with support for ECS should do
18:25<Pinkbeast>You could reduce the bridge lengths by not having them cross the lines they're about to merge with...
18:25<Ammler>if you want to use default, you need ogfx+trains
18:26<SpComb>yeah, keep the bridging track straight and bend the crossing track
18:26<sortkrudt>lemme see.. to sec
18:26<Elukka>hm true
18:26<SpComb>certifyable suboptimal
18:26<Elukka>dunno why i did it that way
18:27<Elukka>and i wish you could still commit the terrible crime of changing newgrfs in a running game because now that save will forever have bugged bridge graphics because i forgot a parameter :(
18:27<Pinkbeast>You can, secretly
18:27<sortkrudt>Pinkbeast. Yes. I should do that aswell. it would be more effective. even tho my system have many weak spots now. whole system have halted another spot aswell
18:27<sortkrudt>I've lost 75% of all earning this year
18:27<Elukka>what's the super secret way
18:27<sortkrudt>:s
18:28<Elukka>i won't complain when it breaks my game, promise
18:28<Ammler>it is not secret, just set the scenario_developer flag
18:28<Pinkbeast>http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_NewGRF#I_cannot_change_NewGRFs_in_my_game.2C_why.3F
18:28<Elukka>hm. thought i did that
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18:28-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.2, 1.1.3-RC1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
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18:29<Pinkbeast>I change newgrfs all the time, never had a problem. As long as you don't do something daft like removing vehicles you're using, it generally seems to be OK
18:29<Pinkbeast>sortkrudt> Why do you need such a humunguous capacity station, anyway, if I can ask?
18:29<SpComb>haet haet
18:29<Elukka>i've used it to either fix graphics hickups and once or twice add the db set ecs compatibility grf which surprisingly worked
18:30*SpComb did it when starting a game on the original TTDX West Country scenario
18:30<Elukka>(works for uk renewal industries too which is pretty nice)
18:30<Alien>Hi, a gameplay question; if i have a "service when needed" order in a trains list will this train autoservice?
18:30<Pinkbeast>... yeah, whoever gets the bug reports you generate because you take my advice isn't going to be too pleased
18:30<Pinkbeast>Alien> No.
18:30-!-Eddi|zuHause2 [~Eddi_zuHa@p54B72E8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit []
18:30<sortkrudt>Pinkbeast: Oh, well. I thought it would be fun to see how much trains I can go to one station. I'm delivering oil, fruit and corn and getting food and goods. thats's all.
18:30<Alien>thx i will try it
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18:31<sortkrudt>I had 900 tonnes of food production, and many tones on goods. Just wanted to see what max number I was able to get
18:31<Pinkbeast>sortkrudt> I would start then by using waypoints to route the loading trains separately to the unloading trains, so that unloading trains cannot be blocked by trains waiting for cargo
18:31<Elukka>but hey, suppose i want my game running cargodist and be modern enough to be compatible with FIRS and opengfx+ terrain
18:31<Elukka>what's my least painless shot of doing it
18:32<Elukka>the ideal thing would be finding a binary somewhere!
18:32-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:32<Pinkbeast>And then split the various kind of loading train, so each cargo has at least one dedicated platform
18:32<Elukka>considering the compile farm hasn't been compiling cargodist for month
18:32<Elukka>months*
18:32<Pinkbeast>Elukka> What's wrong with Chill's?
18:32<sortkrudt>I see. Yea. Splitting into three or four junction pre-station would be a clever idea aswell.
18:32<sortkrudt>instead of twelve-railed junction
18:33<Elukka>...nothing's wrong with chills, i forgot about it and that chill's thread tab i had open
18:33<Elukka>derp
18:33<Ammler>Elukka: there should be a binary flying around on forums
18:33<Pinkbeast>That monstrous train waiting area is papering over the cracks - you can't get trains loaded/unloaded and out of the existing platforms fast enough
18:33<sortkrudt>yes.
18:34<Pinkbeast>And until you can, adding more trains and more waiting area does nothing for throughput
18:34<sortkrudt>I knowz. it sux
18:34<sortkrudt>also true.
18:34<Pinkbeast>Short of increasing maximum station size, though, you are a bit stuck
18:35<Pinkbeast>... wait, do you have any 5-tile trains?
18:35<sortkrudt>when I did 4 junctions, and signals between them at ml, then it went more smooth
18:35<sortkrudt>no. 4cargo+train(2).
18:36<Pinkbeast>Because if you've only got those 3-tile trains, you could have two complete rows of platforms. Bring trains in up the middle and send them out both sides.
18:36<sortkrudt>well. those both lines would eventually go on the ml, then i would get bottle-neck some other place
18:37<Pinkbeast>Perhaps once you get the signals sorted here, anyway, throughput will increase.
18:37<sortkrudt>yea. hope so. thx for help.
18:40<Elukka>yay binaries \o/
18:44<Elukka>haha 32k x 32k square maps
18:47<sortkrudt>atleast u have space
18:48<Pinkbeast>I ain't criticising the decision not to try and second-guess how big a map anyone might need, but... that's probably a bigger map than anyone needs.
18:49<Elukka>i like to play on 2048x2048 maps because it never feels cramped
18:49<Elukka>and so far it never has and i don't feel the need to go bigger
18:50<Elukka>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=149084
18:50<Elukka>anyone happen to know where those trees are from?
18:50<Ammler>opengfx?
18:50<Ammler>you use another base set?
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18:51<@planetmaker>default opengfx
18:51<Elukka>huh.
18:51<Elukka>guess i'm using some archaic version
18:51<Ammler>maabe you need to update
18:51<Elukka>working on it!
18:52<Elukka>ooh sexy trees
18:52<Pinkbeast>Elukka> you're not just using the old TTD graphics?
18:52<Elukka>nah, old opengfx
18:53<Ammler>Pinkbeast: there aren't old ttd graphics
18:53<Ammler>there is just one version afaik
18:54<Pinkbeast>Ammler> You have misunderstood the sense of "old"
18:54<Ammler>:-)
18:55<Elukka>aw. opengfx+ terrain makes chill's crash
18:56<@planetmaker>yes, it's too new newgrf, probably
18:57<@planetmaker>but it shouldn't crash it
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18:57<Elukka>:(
18:58<Ammler>there is ogfx+terrain?
18:58<@planetmaker>+landscape ;-)
18:58<Elukka>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=52881
18:58<Elukka>yeah, that
18:58<Elukka>okay.. i hope firs at least works
18:59<Ammler>what version does chillpp report?
18:59<@planetmaker>it has similiar requirements, Elukka
18:59<@planetmaker>wrt openttd version
18:59<Elukka>argh, it doesn't
19:00<Elukka>chill's says revision 22553
19:00<Elukka>this is whatever was the newest binary in the thread
19:00<@planetmaker>which is smaller than 22780 ;-)
19:00<Elukka>true
19:01<Elukka>i'd just like to get FIRS and preferably opengfx+ landscape in a cargodist game
19:01<@planetmaker>foobar updated yacd
19:01<@planetmaker>somewhere in the forums. And posted a windoze binary
19:02<Elukka>alternative to cargodist?
19:02<Ammler>no
19:02<Ammler>update of yacd
19:03<Ammler>@man yacd
19:04<Elukka>will it make my passengers take a bus to the train that goes to the airport without me fudging with transfer orders because if yes that's what i want
19:04<@Yexo>yes
19:04<Elukka>yay
19:04<Ammler>just try it, it is a bit different
19:05<Elukka>the compiled binaries for yacd also end in june... gonna dig round the thread for newer ones
19:05<@Yexo>main difference between yacd and cargodist is that in yacd the passengers chose a destination themselves and you have to accomodate them. In cargodist the passengers will only go where they can go and as such adjust to your network
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19:06<Elukka>so in effect, in yacd you have less demand for your services if you have less destinations?
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes
19:07<Elukka>cool, always wanted that
19:08<Ammler>you just got a dummy slave of the game
19:09<Elukka>well, i can't find a recent binary of yacd either
19:09<Ammler>it transfers the game from strategy to simulation
19:09<Ammler>Elukka: search for foobar
19:09<@Yexo>Elukka: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=56482
19:10<Elukka>hey, thanks
19:10<Ammler>the best feature of yacd is the disable setting :-)
19:11<Elukka>ha
19:11<Elukka>it sounds pretty great to me
19:11<Elukka>yacd, not the disable setting
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>i'm slightly in preferrence of cargodist-style destinations
19:12<Ammler>you are just a lazy guy :-P
19:12<Elukka>the strategy in the game isn't about making money anyhow since that's so easy, it's about providing towns and industries the services they need
19:12<Elukka>to me anyway
19:12<Elukka>yacd seems like it makes providing those services more interesting
19:13<Ammler>but you just need to do the boring stuff...
19:13<Elukka>what boring stuff?
19:13<Ammler>just build tracks
19:13<Elukka>isn't that what ttd is about :p
19:13<Ammler>the "routing" happens automatically
19:13<Ammler>which is fun in the usual gameplay
19:14<Elukka>routing vehicles doesn't happen automatically though, and destinations makes it all the more vital
19:14<Ammler>Elukka: yeah it is fun for some, it isn't for others, that is why it is good, it has a disable option :-)
19:14<Elukka>because a bottleneck in the network will murder profits
19:14<Elukka>heh
19:14<@planetmaker>good night
19:15<Ammler>gute nacht planetmaker
19:16<Elukka>um. playing on a large map doesn't mean people from Town A will want to go to every single town on the map in equal numbers, so that you'll end up with a miniscule amount of passengers on larger maps, does it?
19:17<Pinkbeast>YACD does its best not to drop you in that hole, yes.
19:17<Elukka>that's nice of it
19:18<Ammler>yes, but you don't need cargod{e|i}st for that, good players can do that without
19:18<Elukka>ah, finally, a thing that works!
19:18<Elukka>so pretty
19:18<Elukka>ammler, without it you can simply dump all your passengers wherever you like :P
19:19<Ammler>not if you want your trains to be full both ways
19:20<Elukka>...next question, are there any good vehicle sets that work with FIRS?
19:20<Elukka>db set seems to have support for it but the grf is much older than recent FIRS versions
19:20<Ammler>any set with support for ECS
19:20<Ammler>or the ogfx+ sets
19:21<Elukka>oh, i thought i had read something about FIRS needing more particular support than ECS
19:21<Ammler>dbset has no graphical support
19:22<Elukka>as in it works but you won't see your trains carry the proper cargo visually?
19:22<Ammler>yep
19:23<Ammler>the "ECS" sets do that mostly and the ogfx+ sets do that even more
19:24<Ammler>you can use multiple sets
19:24<Elukka>i've been alternating between dbset, nars2 and ukrs
19:24<Ammler>the more the better
19:24<Ammler>use them all :-)
19:24<Elukka>but german trains alongside american ones is just.. wrong!
19:25<Elukka>as an aside i love the attention to detail in dbset
19:25<Pinkbeast>I tend to use ukrs2 plus 2cc to fill in the gaps
19:25<Ammler>yeah, as said, for some, openttd is simulation, for some it is strategy, you are obviously the simulation guy :-P
19:26<Pinkbeast>I think defining being allowed to send any cargo anywhere as "strategy" is tenuous at best
19:26<Elukka>different color schemes according to period and locomotive, first class and diner cars...
19:27<Elukka>sometimes i feel the urge to draw some sprites, as i feel i could summon up the artistic skill to do it but there's no way i could code anything :D
19:27<Ammler>then draw your things and post to tt-forums
19:27<sortkrudt>lulz. are you a nationalist in-game Elukka!?!?!
19:28<Ammler>if someone likes it, he might offer to help with code
19:28<Elukka>might just see if someone's looking for sprites and tryign to make some too
19:28<Elukka>sort, hah
19:29<Elukka>if i'm running german trains i'll have german towns and money, if i'm running american trains i'll have american towns and money :P
19:29<Ammler>Elukka: maybe cets is searching for artsts
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19:36<Elukka>hm. long vehicles and fish seem to be okay with firs
19:36<Elukka>since they just transport everything
19:37<Elukka>trucks transporting gear ratios! :P
19:45<Elukka>...disabling regearing in nars apparently means disabling all locomotives capable of regearing
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>i think that's a bug
19:52<Elukka>suddenly, 3 am
19:52<Elukka>sleeptime i think
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20:10<CIA-2>OpenTTD: glx * r22898 /trunk/src/core/bitmath_func.hpp: -Codechange: use MSVC compiler intrinsics for byte swapping
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