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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-06

---Logopened Tue Sep 06 00:00:34 2011
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01:54<@planetmaker>moin
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03:22<@Terkhen>good morning
03:26<V453000>hi
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05:09<dihedral>good morning
05:12<@Terkhen>hi dihedral
05:14<@planetmaker>hi
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05:45<George>hi. FIRS question. Can the translation change cargo units? Instead of crates, can supplys be measured in pieces? I mean can the text be "2 supplies" instead of "2 creates of supplies"?
05:46<@Yexo>if done consistently, I don't see why not?
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>i believe so
05:46<@Terkhen>I think so, yes
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06:00<George>How? STR_CARGO_UNIT_FMSP :{SIGNED_WORD} упаковок сельхозтоваров
06:01<George>what should I use?
06:01<George>STR_CARGO_UNIT_FMSP :{SIGNED_WORD} агротехсредств ?
06:01<@Yexo>just use :{SIGNED_WORD} supplies ?
06:02<George>Щл
06:02<George>And is it possible to change the weight and reduce the amount?
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>no
06:02<@Yexo>no
06:03<George>For example have something like {SIGNED_WORD/10} агротехсредств ?
06:03<@Yexo>not possible, there is no support for that in nfo
06:04<George>And whom may I suggest to change the measure for supplies
06:04<@Yexo>andy as author of FIRS
06:04<@Yexo>although I'm not sure it's possible to change this at all
06:04<@Yexo>that is, without changing the amount of supplies that is produced
06:05<George>Would it be too bad to change it?
06:06<@Yexo>supplies production is already low
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think the game can only handle smaller weights, 1 unit of cargo must be a fraction of 1t
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>so you can't have "1 Tractor" unit that has a weight of 15t
06:07<George>Eddi|zuHause: ECS vehicles weighs 2,5 tons
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>hm, then i don't know
06:07<George>You can have up to 16t per unit
06:07<@Yexo>George: ah, you only want to change the weight of the supplies?
06:08<@Yexo>that wouldn't be so bad
06:08<George>Increase the weight and reduce the amount of units per vehicles
06:08<George>per vehicle
06:08<@Yexo>is there a value for the latter in nfo?
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>there is an automatic conversion factor
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>during refitting
06:09<George>you mean http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Cargos#Weight_of_one_unit_of_the_cargo_.280F.29 ?
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>which the newgrf can ignore, though
06:09<@Yexo>no, I know that one
06:11<George>so, what do you think about this idea? Should I contact andy or not?
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>weight multiplier is applied to capacity, unless you use callback 15
06:13<@Terkhen>George: besides having to modify all NewGRFs that support FIRS, I don't have a strong opinion on this matter
06:14<George>only CB 15 calls should be changed ;)
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>sane people use CB 36 ;)
06:15<@Terkhen>it's work nonetheless
06:16<George>Yes, it would require some change, but I suppose it is not insane ;)
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>George: if you can run this past andythenorth, i say go ahead ;)
06:16<George>You mean you like the idea?
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes
06:17<George>Yexo, Terkhen, what do you think?
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>might need a few tweaks to cargo production, though
06:18<@Terkhen>I think that farm supplies with vehicle-like weight will look strange when coming from a fertiliser plant :)
06:19<@Terkhen>same thing happens now with small stuff weight coming from "vehicles"
06:19<@Terkhen>so I don't have a strong opinion either way
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that comes with the genericity of the cargo. it's equally strange that a tractor weighs 1t
06:19<George>why? A BIG box of fertilizer ;)
06:19<@Yexo>George: it would require some careful tweaks to the cargo production, but over I like it
06:20<George>Ok, I'll contact andy
06:21<@planetmaker>what weight should a unit of fertilizer have in your eyes?
06:22<George>a unit of farm supplies. about 10t
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>fertilizer is usually bulk cargo
06:22<@planetmaker>yes
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>so it doesn't really matter
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>George: the interesting part about that is that you can't use the HEQS Gmund Mog for supplies anymore (2t capacity)
06:23<@planetmaker>IMHO 10t is too much
06:23<@planetmaker>it would not fit with fertilizer at all
06:23<@planetmaker>or it would make sense to deliver 3 units of fertilizer per year and farm or so
06:23<@Terkhen>urgh, true
06:24<@Terkhen>I want to use the gmund mog :P
06:24<@Terkhen>I usually have a swarm of those things moving everywhere when I play FIRS
06:24<@planetmaker>10t is fine if you assume FMSP to be a tractor
06:24<@planetmaker>but that's not the only interpretation
06:24<@planetmaker>what is the benefit of changing it from 1unit=1t to 1unit=10t?
06:25<George>planetmaker: And what would be wrong with fertilizer? Usually you deliver a truck of them IRL, that is several (5-8) tons of cargo
06:25<@planetmaker>that's exactly what you do
06:26<George>the benefit is to have a truck ful loaded instead of going almost empty
06:26<@planetmaker>but it means IMHO to decrease the granularity to too big units
06:26<@planetmaker>I could go with like 3t
06:27<@planetmaker>would be roughly a m^3 of fertilizer
06:27<@planetmaker>actually 2
06:27<George>3t is to little for a truck ;)
06:27<hanf>if on the webtranslator there's no "needs translator" does that mean someone is working on it? when I get back to uni I could do faroese and finish off the chinese if necessary, but not if someone is working on it!
06:27<George>I want to make a delivery more realistic
06:27<@planetmaker>A big truck should carry more than one supply
06:27<@Terkhen>that size is perfect for delivering supplies
06:28<@planetmaker>A gmund can carry one or two units
06:28<@planetmaker>but a full-sized truck should carry more than one, two units
06:28<@Terkhen>hanf: IIRC the "needs translator" appears when more than 100 strings are missing a translation
06:28<@planetmaker>there's a config file setting for that
06:28<@Terkhen>faroese would welcome a translator :)
06:29<@planetmaker>Mine is at one :-)
06:29<@Terkhen>both chinese variants have some recent strings missing
06:29<@Terkhen>see http://translator.openttd.org/en/status
06:29<hanf>Terkhen: ah okay. I don't speak faroese but have plenty of faroese friends at uni :P
06:29<@planetmaker>Terkhen, I think the gmund with a capacity of one or two supplies, that's good. But a full truck could well deliver 5 ... 10 units
06:29<hanf>yeah I'm looking at that now
06:29<@planetmaker>and a train 10
06:29<@planetmaker>*train wagon
06:30<@planetmaker>The units fmsp transported in ogfx+ sets is set to low anyway
06:30<@planetmaker>and that is easy to do for vehicle sets, George
06:31<@planetmaker>it's thus just a matter of weight
06:31<George>that is why I suggest to make it larger
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>i was thinking around 4t per units
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>a railway wagon with 30t capacity would then carry 7 units
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>a truck with 12t capacity would carry 3 units
06:34<@Terkhen>as long as the gmund can carry a single unit, I don't mind the changes
06:34<@Terkhen>I don't want this to break my way of playing FIRS :P
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how the rounding is done
06:35<George>well, I do not say 10t is the best value, I only suggest to make weight larger and capacity smaller
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>if in doubt, implement HEQS with cb15 to force minimum 1 unit ;)
06:40<@Yexo>George: if you're seriously looking at the Russian translation for FIRS, you might want to add plurals/gender/cases support too
06:42<@planetmaker>Terkhen, yes, the gmund IMHO should be the unit-definition for supplies
06:42<@Terkhen>:)
06:42<George>sorry, I'm not familar with the way to code them, but we are currently have a discussion on the russion forums about FIRS translation, so I hope that we would do it by the team.
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>the german translation uses genders, and the hungarian translation uses cases, if you need examples
06:44<George>planetmaker: > gmund IMHO should be the unit-definition for supplies - I think not ;) it should hust have the capacity 1 unit. But the weight should be counted based on average truck, having 2-3 units capacity
06:44<George>so that was the reason for 10t
06:44<@planetmaker>George, and there I disagree
06:44<@planetmaker>An average truck should have more capacity
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>rv capacities in the game are generally higher than "realistic"
06:45<George>how many?
06:45<@planetmaker>We use 10 ... 15
06:45<@planetmaker>which IMHO is a good thing for FIRS
06:45<@Yexo>George: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/561/ <- that might be helpful as examples
06:45<George>10 supplies?
06:45<@planetmaker>yes
06:45<George>isn't it too much?
06:45<@planetmaker>no
06:45<@planetmaker>I don't think so
06:46<@planetmaker>The big trucks carry more than just a bit
06:46<@planetmaker>and a unit can be less than a full tractor ;-)
06:46<George>what is the profit to deliver 10, if the industry needs 1. You can't say the truck to unload 1 unit of cargo, can't you?
06:46<@planetmaker>I don't consider tractor the unit
06:46<@planetmaker>George, industries can use more than one
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>George: industries might require more than 1 unit in the future
06:47<@planetmaker>And it will in the future also become interesting to deliver more
06:47<George>how much?
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>the suggestion was to increase it with the production multiplier
06:47<@planetmaker>depends :-) ^
06:47<George>The max required amount should define the truck capacity ;)
06:48<George>Eddi|zuHause: with the production multiplier - how much?
06:48<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2296
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>details might be tunable
06:49<@planetmaker>I don't think that's how it works... max amount = truck amount
06:50<@planetmaker>though of course it's an indicator. But there are too many ways to play
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>in my YACD/FIRS game i put one FMSP wagon to the pick up trains, and had trains with larger capacity run through the major hubs to distribute the supplies
06:52<@planetmaker>yup, that's how I used it, too
06:52<@planetmaker>full supply-only trains among hubs.
06:53<@planetmaker>and locally either that way. Or trains which visited all industries subsequently
06:53<Eddi|zuHause>problem was that it was difficult to determine whether an industry gets supplies every month
06:54<@planetmaker>yes. That's one of the things we plan to make easier. By somewhat introducing something similar to a stockpile for that
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that was kinda the source of my suggestion
07:01<George>Andy wrote "I quite like this idea. I think it could work well"
07:05<@planetmaker>he hasn't yet thought it through, I'm sure ;-)
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07:43<Eddi|zuHause>when was the last time andy thought _anything_ through? ;)
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09:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22899 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Add: Allow towns to build bridges over canals and rivers.
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09:52<@Belugas>hello
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11:08<Elukka>i may have asked this yesterday but i was half asleep and don't remember :D
11:08<Elukka>are there train sets with full, graphical support for FIRS?
11:09<@Terkhen>opengfx+ trains
11:10<@Terkhen>besides that, maybe 2cc
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11:10<Elukka>alright
11:10<@Yexo>depends on the version of FIRS
11:10<@Yexo>for current trunk probably none
11:10<@Terkhen>really? what was added?
11:10<@Terkhen>I only remember alcohol
11:10<@Yexo>sugarbeet / sugarcane split
11:10<@Terkhen>oh, that :)
11:10<@Terkhen>I'm going to test what happens with ogfx-rv now
11:11<@Yexo>most likely supported, just without special graphics, hence no "full, graphical support"
11:13<@Terkhen>yes, sugar beet looks like coal in ogfx-rv, and probably the same happens with ogfx-trains
11:13<@Terkhen>so... probably none :P
11:13*Terkhen fixes it now
11:14<Elukka>heh
11:14<Elukka>for most cargos it'd probably look better if missing cargo graphics had a medium brown color than black coal
11:15<@Terkhen>at least in OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles, the idea is to have full support for all cargos
11:15<@Terkhen>black coal is very noticeable
11:15<@Terkhen>so bugs and omissions are easy to spot :)
11:16<Elukka>my favorite train sets are dbset and nars and both are coal everywhere
11:16<@Terkhen>dbset has a FIRS addon, but IIRC it is quite outdated
11:16<Elukka>yeah
11:16<Elukka>better than nothing i suppose
11:16<Eddi|zuHause>DBSetXL 0.9 has a prospected release date of 11.11.11
11:17<@Terkhen>and from what I read back then, the addon will be only updated once that FIRS reaches cargo stability :P
11:17<Elukka>dbset has ongoing development? :O
11:17<Elukka>heh, i can see why they'd want to do that
11:17<@Terkhen>is proper support for all FIRS cargos planned for it?
11:18<Elukka>how hard would it be to get at the sprites and just change the color of stuff?
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>well, semi-proper...
11:18<Elukka>never touched grfs
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>MB and andy "agreed to disagree" on certain parts :p
11:18<@Terkhen>so no support
11:19<@Terkhen>Elukka: that's what I'm going to do now for sugar cane and sugar beet on ogfx-rv... recolouring of existing cargo sprites
11:19<@Terkhen>but for stuff that is not bulk, modifying sprites is more complicated
11:19<Elukka>that's what i'd like to do for dbset and maybe nars
11:19<Elukka>boxcars and such don't matter much but open bulk cargo is really noticeable
11:19<@Yexo>with dbset it's not so useful since you won't be allowed to distribute the result
11:19<@Yexo>for nars I'm not sure
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>if i read things right, the problematic part are "supplies", which might get generic boxes. other cargos should be fine
11:20<Elukka>i'd just like to make a quick fix for myself :D
11:21<@Terkhen>yes... that's the problem with restrictive licenses
11:21<@Terkhen>a lot of work is never shared
11:21<@Terkhen>you might want to help with CETS :P
11:21<Elukka>what's CETS?
11:22<@Yexo>central-european train set
11:22<@Terkhen>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets <--- some people in this channel are working on it
11:22<Elukka>ooh
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>bulk cargos might be done by recolour tables
11:23<@planetmaker>Yexo: ogfx+trains already supports it in nightly ;-)
11:23<@Terkhen>recolour tables? what's that? :P
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>i just haven
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>'t looked into the details yet
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>cargo wagon scheme is kinda low on the priority list
11:24<Elukka>i think i'd be more familiar with making 3D models and rendering those like people do for 32bpp graphics but i suppose i could draw decent sprites
11:24<Elukka>can't hurt to try, at least
11:24<@Terkhen>some people makes 3D models and then converts them to 8bpp sprites somehow
11:25<@Terkhen>after that, they tweak the sprites
11:25<Elukka>i'm not sure if that's worth the effort since the sprites are so small
11:25<Elukka>unless you already have the models
11:25<@planetmaker>but ogfx+trains takes just the raw sugar sprites. no variation so far
11:25<@Terkhen>ogfx-rv does not have sprites for either type of raw sugar cargo
11:25<@planetmaker>trains have just some colour variation on the bulk
11:26<@planetmaker>but not recolour sprite variation ;-)
11:26*Terkhen checks the sprites
11:26<Elukka>suppose i wanted to try drawing sprites for CETS... where would i find out what's needed, and what style the existing sprites are so i could try to emulate that?
11:26<@Terkhen>I could release a new version of ogfx-rv in time for FIRS testing
11:26<@Terkhen>but I'll probably play more with eGRVTS 2 than with my own trucks :P
11:26<@planetmaker>:-)
11:26<@Yexo>Elukka: ask Eddi|zuHause
11:27*Elukka pokes Eddi|zuHause
11:27<@Yexo>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets <- there is the project page
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11:29<Eddi|zuHause>the sprite templates are here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/show/src/gfx
11:29<Elukka>oh, those should simplify things
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>some graphics are here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2924
11:30<Elukka>are those... templates for curved track?
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>the length of the wagons are not fully decided yet
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11:30<Eddi|zuHause>it's either 24m=16lu or 24m=12lu
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>(1 standard TTD wagon = 8lu)
11:31<Elukka>you can do longer wagons these days?
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>it's a bit hacky :)
11:31<Elukka>it's something i've wanted to see for a long time
11:31<Elukka>does it work?
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>need this patch to test the GRF: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=51697
11:33<Elukka>i have some german umbauwagen models (as in physical models) handy that would make for good sprite drawing reference for me :P
11:34<Elukka>so do both locomotives and wagons attempt to have realistic proportions?
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:34<Elukka>hm, besides looking better that should make drawing a bit easier
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>oberhümer wants to draw to the 24m=12lu proportions
11:35<Elukka>what's lu?
11:35<@planetmaker>length unit
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>length units
11:35<Elukka>ah
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>16lu=1tile
11:36<Elukka>so the 12 angles you have in the templates...
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>it's the smallest unit available in the game for movement, bounding boxes, etc.
11:36<Elukka>is someone developing actual curved track?
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>not that i know of
11:36<Elukka>why so many angles then?
11:36-!-Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>because with only 4 views, the long wagons stick too far out
11:37<Elukka>oh true
11:38<Elukka>i'm having trouble picturing how the 12 angles work with 8 track angles though
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>i have an idea how to do matching curved tracks, but it's kind of not a priority, and current railtype specs don't allow enough variables
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: download the grf and check it out
11:39<Elukka>i can't compile the patch D:
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>except the full-tile wagons, most things should still work with unpatched openttd
11:39<Elukka>alright, i'll try
11:40<Elukka>hey, assuming i can get anything done
11:40<Elukka>http://www.gscalecentral.co.uk/f/download.axd?file=4;84709&where=msg
11:40<Elukka>these cars were permanently coupled in pairs
11:40<Elukka>should that be two separate cars or one long car in game?
11:40<Elukka>hm. i suppose two separate cars so articulation works
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>yes, articulated should be separate
11:41<Ammler>http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=5396 <-- cets2 :-)
11:42<Elukka>one more question before i try doing anything... how do i get the scale right
11:42<Elukka>are the boxes in the template absolute bounding boxes?
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: i'm quite sure our set has some distinction to theirs
11:42<Elukka>like, would a wagon's curved roof go under or above the box
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: the green boxes are mere suggestions. 2px=1m is oberhümers suggested scale
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11:43<Elukka>i see
11:44<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_2725.jpg
11:44<Elukka>now i have work to do both on physical and pixel trains :p
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>the difference between the 16lu=24m or 12lu=24m is whether to take the / view as to-scale and the - view as elongated, or to see the - view as to scale and the / view shortened
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>TTD-scale-problems are ugly
11:45<Elukka>i suppose the most important thing is consistency
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>be careful with railway models, they're sometimes not fully to scale either
11:46<Elukka>yeah i know
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. H0 is originally 1:87, but some wagons are shortened to 1:100
11:46<Elukka>the longer coaches tend not to be
11:48<Elukka>i've seen many a heated discussion on shortened H0 coaches :)
11:52<Elukka>erm, where can i find the cets grf?
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>eurgh... "the usual places"
11:54<Elukka>i was trying to dig in the repository
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>https://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/
11:55<Elukka>i see, thanks
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>try r140, the longest wagons should work better there
11:59<Elukka>oh that's terribly pretty
12:00<Elukka>gonna practice drawing something
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>the vehicle lifetimes are not implemented properly yet, so best used with "vehicles never expire"
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>also check out the GRF parameters
12:01<Elukka>green boxes!
12:07<Elukka>do i just pick whichever template fits the real rolling stock best?
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>you take the real vehicle length, e.g. 14m, and divide that by the scale 24/12 or 24/16. so you have 14/24*12 = 7 or 14/24*16 = 9.3 (rounded to 10)
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>so you take the 7lu template if you want to stick to oberhümer's scale
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, there was no final decision yet
12:13<Elukka>alright
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12:14<@planetmaker>hm, no final decision albeit oberhuemer already draws?
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>well, he did that on his own risk
12:18<@planetmaker>For no good reason other than "if longer, then properly" I prefer the 16 lu solution.
12:19<Elukka>i'm gonna stick to ober's scale
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i'm not too strong on the opinion anymore. the "problem" is both work out equally well in my head :)
12:21<Elukka>i like as realistic proportions as possible but i'll just go along with whatever's being used
12:22<@planetmaker>well... what's the argument for one or the other? Or why not 8lu?
12:25-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>the argument against 8lu is that the shorter vehicles get too short, causing offset issues and lack of details in graphics
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>even in the 16lu case i have problems getting the 3lu/4lu tenders to fit in the movement scheme
12:28<@planetmaker>too short?
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>for very short vehicles, the turning point is outside the vehicle
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>which makes for some odd effects in curves
12:33-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
12:34<@planetmaker>hm. But that might probably be rather fixed in OpenTTD?
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but this is problematic, as it may potentially break existing grfs which abuse the feature or implement countermeasures
12:35<@planetmaker>would need checking
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>no, it needs a flag to switch the behaviour from old to new
12:37<@planetmaker>or that... though if it breaks no newgrf, it can be changed
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>(much like 32px vehicles)
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: any grf making use of var45 is affected
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>var45 has existed for years
12:39<@planetmaker>it has. But I'm not sure how many sets really would use it
12:39<@planetmaker>I can imagine definitely not more than a hand full
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>that is not the point
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>alone the existence of LV5-test grfs is enough
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12:43<Elukka>is the bottom of the template box the part that touches the rails?
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes
12:44<Elukka>hm. with 12 angles it might just be worth it to make a real quick 3D model first...
12:45-!-Mks [~mks@c83-176-234-98.cust.tele2.se] has joined #openttd
12:49<@peter1138>make 360 angles
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12:51<Swissfan91>hello everyone
12:52<@Terkhen>hi Swissfan91
12:52<Swissfan91>how's your day going?
12:52<@Terkhen>can't complain :)
12:52<V453000>neither :)
12:53<Swissfan91>good
12:53-!-DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd
12:53<Swissfan91>I'm finally getting around to some of the crazy projects I make threads about
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>if you have nothing to complain about, you are dead.
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12:54<@Terkhen>if I were dead, I'm pretty sure I would have a lot of things to complain about
12:54-!-pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
12:55<Swissfan91>good to see this sort of conversation follows me in xD
12:55<@Terkhen>:P
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12:57<Elukka>um. which direction should locomotives point in on the templates?
12:57<Elukka>left or right
12:57<Swissfan91>man, I wish I could draw for OTTD
12:57<Elukka>hey i can't either but i'm pooping some pixels and hoping something decent comes out
12:58<Swissfan91>what're you drawing?
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: in the first sprite, the top is the front and the bottom the back. the rest follows from there
12:58<Elukka>alright
13:01<Elukka>swissfan91, trying to draw this: http://www.gscalecentral.co.uk/f/download.axd?file=4;84709&where=msg
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13:06<Swissfan91>Elukka: I see, what set is that for?
13:06-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd
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13:08<Elukka>CETS.. hopefully, if i can make anything up to decent standards :D
13:10<Swissfan91>oh right, thats great. I'd love to see that set happen.
13:10<Swissfan91>Good luck.
13:10<z-MaTRiX>fnx="./test.txt";newfs=`dd if="$fnx" bs=64k skip=0 2>/dev/null | gzip -9 | dd bs=64k seek=0 conv=notrunc of="$fnx" 2>&1 | grep "bytes.*copied" | sed -re 's;^([0-9][0-9]*) .*;\1;Ig'`;dd if=/dev/null bs=1 count=0 seek="$newfs" of="$fnx" 2>/dev/null;mv "$fnx" "$fnx.gz"
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13:13<z-MaTRiX>gzip-in-place for fun <;
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>2>&1 sounds like a dangerous thing to do in a pipe
13:14<z-MaTRiX>hm, that should redirect stderr to stdout
13:15<z-MaTRiX>so į can grep it
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there are ways to directly grep stderr
13:19<__ln__>z-MaTRiX: english only
13:20<z-MaTRiX>__ln__<< where do you see other?
13:20<__ln__>z-MaTRiX: 'į' is not an english word
13:21<Elukka>interesting
13:21<Elukka>sprite drawing is infectious
13:21<Elukka>i mentioned it on an unrelated channel and now this guy is drawing ICEs
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>ICEs are the trickiest part of the set... i have no clue how to do them properly
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>we need vehicles that are both articulated and dualheaded
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13:25<Swissfan91>if only we had keen drawers at the Swiss set :P
13:26<V453000>if only we had more drawers at the NUTS set :P
13:26<pjpe>if only that guy on 2cc would come back from the dead
13:26<Swissfan91>if only we had more drawers :P
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>if only we had more nuts at the drawerset
13:27<V453000>:d
13:27<Elukka>i'm happy if i can be useful :P
13:28<Swissfan91>its annoying in some respects that we have so many train sets about Europe, and they cannot be merged into two. A European Livery set, and a European CC set
13:28<Swissfan91>i know people enjoy having one about their respective country (Dutch, DB set etc)
13:28<@Terkhen>you have the 2cc train set :P
13:29<Swissfan91>indeed, which is a very good set
13:30<Elukka>hmm... i guess nobody will count individual windows :P
13:30<Elukka>umwauwagen have 7, but the sprite looks more like the real thing with 6
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>err... i'm sure they do :p
13:31<V453000>it isnt too easy to add/take away a window on the few pixel space you have :)
13:31<Elukka>yeah
13:31<Elukka>not mine, but the guy i mentioned is doing his first sprite work too
13:31<Elukka>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3590931/badiceisbad.png
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13:34<Elukka>hm. i suppose curved roofs should have some shading
13:34<Elukka>which direction does the sun shine from in ttd world again?
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>ask andy, he has done some research on it
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's from the lower right, at a high angle
13:36<Elukka>alright
13:38<V453000>I have that feeling, too
13:40<z-MaTRiX>Eddi|zuHause<< im not so sure, standard unix tools take standard input as default
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: you have named pipes and stuff, you can do all sorts of funny plummery
13:41-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
13:41<z-MaTRiX>you mean using a fifo file?
13:41<z-MaTRiX>redirecting stderr seemed straight forward
13:42<Elukka>okay i guess the windows should be darker than the car body
13:42-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host26-234-dynamic.0-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
13:42<Wolf01>hello
13:43<z-MaTRiX>hey
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22900 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt esperanto.txt german.txt romanian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by Yexo
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: esperanto - 9 changes by Ailanto
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by kkmic
13:46<Elukka>hey, eddi, what about variants like first class and dining cars?
13:46<Elukka>they are pretty nice in dbset but i have no idea if cets is planning to do that sort of thing
13:49<z-MaTRiX>howcome crc32 sum util is not included in coreutils?
13:50<z-MaTRiX>it is old, and ca nbe faked, but still in use...
13:50<sortkrudt>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBSsqiytCI8
13:50<sortkrudt>oups. sry
13:51<Elukka>contrast is kinda hard to manage... since the wagon itself is all so medium greyish green
13:52<frosch123>z-MaTRiX: everyone uses md5 today for checking corruption
13:52<frosch123>or sha-(various numbers)
13:53<z-MaTRiX>btw my preference is sha512sum
13:53<z-MaTRiX>but totalcmd splits files and checksums crc32
13:53<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/umbauwagen.png
13:53<z-MaTRiX>also it is in zlib
13:53<Elukka>first shot! kinda hard to see :D
13:53<Elukka>if anyone has any suggestions, shoot
13:54<Elukka>i used colors from the livery template
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: the passenger wagon proposal is here: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2884
13:57<Elukka>ooh
13:58<Elukka>this is basically a modernish (60s-80s) wagon but the length is only 13 meters as it was rebuilt out of ancient coaches
13:58<Elukka>so i used the closest template
13:58<Elukka>it was quite prolific in germany i understand
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14:00<Elukka>so you don't really have short and long coaches separately?
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14:05<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: naturally the wagons get longer over time, as that was their real development
14:05<Elukka>i see
14:05<Elukka>germany is a bit of a special case as they had short wagons up to the 80s
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>just if a wagon is twice as long, it gets twice the capacity
14:06-!-Masa [~Marcel@p54B1D4F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
14:06<Masa>hey guys
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>the capacity-to-size ratio doesn't get larger over time
14:06<Elukka>alongside longer coaches of course
14:06<Elukka>yeah that makes sense
14:07<Masa>great game, love the visuals and audio ... but .. FCKING DO SOMETHING ABOUT PLACING RAILWAYS
14:07<Masa>its so broken and rage inducing i cant even
14:07<pjpe>that's uh
14:07<pjpe>great
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>great introduction.
14:07<pjpe>we
14:07<pjpe>we'll look in to that
14:08<Masa>seriously i put tracks and when im close to getting where i want .. RED RAIL
14:08<Elukka>huh?
14:09<Masa>somehow placing tracks can modify terrain it itself and then i get "land facing in wrong direction" or some bs when i attempt to connect the two ends of my track
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>so then move the terrain?
14:10<Masa>anyway, games great just saying that its a major upset for me coming to this. i am trying to enjoy it but this is just bad first user experience
14:10<@Alberth>thank you so much for sharing
14:11<Masa>no problem, i will feel better until i try building railways again
14:11<frosch123>just start an ai, and it will build the rails
14:12<@Terkhen>create a flat scenario and play on it :)
14:12<Masa>also, one more thing
14:13<Masa>after i buy a train in a depot, i expect to be able to find that train again when i click the depot, but it just disappears from the list
14:13<Elukka>i think your problem might be you're trying to build diagonal tracks on slopes
14:13<Elukka>you can't do that
14:13<Masa>the consequence is, theres also no way to delete the train and destroy the depot in case you place the depot the wrong way
14:13<pjpe>sure you can
14:14<frosch123>you have very interesting problems :)
14:14<Masa>at least i could not figure out to sell the train from the vehicle list
14:14<pjpe>you can sell trains when they're stopped in depots
14:14<Masa>nope, it asks me to pull the train from the list into the icon
14:14<Masa>but the train is not in the list
14:14<pjpe>in the depot list?
14:14<pjpe>tell it to turn around and head for the depot
14:14<Masa>yep, its not there
14:14<@Alberth>train is not stopped?
14:14<Masa>the train could not even leave the depot because the depot was facing the wrong way -.-
14:15<@Terkhen>order the train to go back to the depot
14:15<@Terkhen>and trains don't go outside depots on their own, you have to order them to start
14:15<@Terkhen>I have to go, see you tomorrow :)
14:15<Masa>bye
14:15<@Alberth>bye Terkhen
14:16<@Alberth>Masa: stopped is not the same as not being able to leave the depot
14:16<Masa>from my point of view the train should always be in the depot list, but whatever. i ll try it again
14:16<Elukka>the train is always in the depot list if it is in the depot
14:16<Elukka>even if it's only partially in
14:17<Masa>well i guess it makes sense if you have a whole network with several depots
14:17<Elukka>um, yeah, it's of course only in the list of the particular depot the train is in
14:17<Masa>but if you only have one railway and one depot i kinda expected it to always show there you know
14:18<@Alberth>it is always in the list of trains
14:22<z-MaTRiX>is this a bug in ls ?
14:22<z-MaTRiX>$ ls -l 40g.img.gz
14:22<z-MaTRiX>ls: unrecognized prefix: rs
14:22<z-MaTRiX>ls: unparsable value for LS_COLORS environment variable
14:22<z-MaTRiX>ls: 40g.img.gz: Value too large for defined data type
14:25<@Alberth>sounds like messedup LS_COLORS env var
14:25<@Alberth>ls -l --color=none 40g.img.gz
14:25<Masa>by the way, should i include the depot in my bus route ?
14:25<z-MaTRiX>it displays all other files in dir, but skips that one...
14:26<@Alberth>also other .gz files?
14:26<z-MaTRiX>yes
14:30<z-MaTRiX>but if the "40g.img.gz" file is 0 bytes, the value too large error disappears
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14:32<z-MaTRiX>something is not cool here, maybe system needs runlevel 6
14:32<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22901 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix (r22767): The river density dropdown was missing in the 'play heightmap' window.
14:33<@Alberth>I am afraid you have to dig in the env var string to figure out what is wrong
14:33<z-MaTRiX>just recently wrote some long script that killed the terminal
14:33<z-MaTRiX>maybe that did something ;/
14:34<z-MaTRiX>though it was in another terminal recently closed...
14:37<@Alberth>kill $$ ? :)
14:38<@Alberth>(iirc)
14:38<z-MaTRiX>no, assumed there was some reserved variable name in it, and mc got killed after script run
14:39<Elukka>hmm drawing the diagonals is where it gets hard
14:40<z-MaTRiX>and some typos
14:40<z-MaTRiX>'`()
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15:36<sortkrudt>ok. totally irrelevant question but! favourite beer?
15:39<V453000>Pilsner Urquell
15:39<V453000>.
15:39<XeryusTC>La Chouffe
15:39<@SmatZ>Pilsner Urquell ftw :)
15:40<V453000>hell yeah
15:40<V453000>hi SmatZ btw :p still alive?
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>not that big on beer myself
15:40<@SmatZ>hello V453000 :)
15:40<XeryusTC>pilsner != beer!
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>most of the time Köstritzer
15:42<sortkrudt>urqueell. is that from ur country? havent' seen it, but dont like überbitter beer.
15:42<sortkrudt>I love killkenny/guiness and dark, dark beer
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>Pilsner Urquell is from Pilsen, obviously
15:42<frosch123>and obviously the origin of every "pils"
15:43<sortkrudt>köstritzer is awesome german beer. i have to say. dont have it in norway tho
15:43-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-32-4.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd
15:43<XeryusTC>oh, there is always Hertog Jan Grand Prestige btw
15:44<sortkrudt>i like local brewereries.
15:44<XeryusTC>one huge kick to the head but so damn tasty
15:44<sortkrudt>killkenny is awesome
15:44<frosch123>haha, when i was in norway everyone drank warsteiner... some beer which i cannot remember to have seen being drunk in germany :p
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>XeryusTC: do all your beers have such weird names? :=
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>i've only ever seen Warsteiner in commercial spots... never seen it anywhere
15:45<XeryusTC>i have seen 50+ empty warsteiner cases next to 50+ empty heineken cases at a lan party once :P
15:46<XeryusTC>actually, they were build into one giant pyramid :D
15:46<sortkrudt>beer is somewhat luxuary in norway. about 5 euro per beer-can
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't seen beer cans in ages
15:46<sortkrudt>maybe 3 euro for cheap ones. or 2,5 for the crappy ones
15:46<sortkrudt>well. beer in can is OK if its lager. better in can
15:46<XeryusTC>cheepest you can get here is like 30 cent/can
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>20x0,5l cost around 10-15€ here
15:47-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd []
15:47<frosch123>yeah, we were told norwegians would be upset, if we woudl bring a present with < 60%
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>so you brought Stroh 80? :)
15:47<sortkrudt>yes. above 60% is defined as drugs in norway
15:47<XeryusTC>i was about to mention Stroh xD
15:48<frosch123>stroh is mainly known for "Warum liegt hier Stroh rum?" :p
15:48<XeryusTC>i have this bottle of Captain Morgan Original sitting next to me :o
15:48<sortkrudt>captain morgan. known.
15:48<V453000>stroh is undrinkable :D
15:49<V453000>at least the 80% one
15:49<sortkrudt>many people from germany here?
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>quite
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>~30% i guess
15:49-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has joined #openttd
15:49<sortkrudt>i have a girlfriend from germany
15:49<sortkrudt>tahts my only relation
15:49<sortkrudt>he he
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>pics or it didn't happen!
15:50<sortkrudt>lulz!
15:50<XeryusTC>i had german i high school
15:50<frosch123>yeah, "in germany" would have meant something different :p
15:50<XeryusTC>how's that for a connection :P
15:50<sortkrudt>nice connection
15:50<XeryusTC>german being forced upon you, again
15:50<sortkrudt>she's a lovely girl.
15:50<sortkrudt>yea. again -_-
15:51<sortkrudt>those ze germans!
15:51<__ln__>sortkrudt: does she know you?
15:51<sortkrudt>http://cdn.pimpmyspace.org/media/pms/c/kq/dx/wb/ters_81_34.jpg
15:51<sortkrudt>lolz. know me! lolz
15:52<frosch123>hmm, that's the second time in a few days that image is linked here :p
15:52<sortkrudt>yea. and I'm all responsible
15:52<sortkrudt>once they were known for their sense of humour!
15:52<frosch123>you posted it also the other times?
15:52-!-Westie [~westie@icarus.typefish.co.uk] has joined #openttd
15:52<sortkrudt>yesterday
15:52<sortkrudt>yea. hehe
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.southpark.de/alleEpisoden/1502/?autoplay=false
15:55<__ln__>unfair, we have only episodes up to season 13
16:02<frosch123>damn the "german jokes" are easier to understand when reading the english subtext :p
16:03<sortkrudt>hehe
16:03<sortkrudt>mhm
16:09-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x573c4281.espnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
16:09-!-mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
16:10<__ln__>@seen Bjarni
16:10<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 23 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 48 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Bjarni> thanks
16:11<__ln__>Bjarni!
16:11<@Bjarni>O_O
16:11<@Bjarni>23 weeks
16:11<@Bjarni>can't be right
16:12<sortkrudt>any funny german saying i can say to my girlfirend aus deautchland?
16:12<sortkrudt>(she is on skype)
16:12<__ln__>sortkrudt: "Wenn ist das Nunstück git und Slotermeyer? Ja!"
16:12-!-JVassie [~James@2.27.99.14] has joined #openttd
16:13<sortkrudt>what does 'knüllbar' means?
16:13<sortkrudt>in norwegian it means: "fuckable".
16:14<sortkrudt>du mich auch scherzkeks
16:14<__ln__>Bjarni: bots don't lie. (on the other hand, DorpsGek doesn't "see" people when they visit the channel but don't talk)
16:15<hanf>I guess this channel is some kind of german love-in
16:15<@Bjarni>why all this German loving?
16:15<sortkrudt>cause we love the motherland!
16:15*Bjarni got a phonecall from Germany today
16:16<sortkrudt>nein. ze vaterland!
16:17<__ln__>Bjarni: what did germany want from you?
16:19<@Bjarni>they told me it's ok to come back xD
16:19<hanf>I quite enjoy some german bands, that's about it I think. the language is rather nice too!
16:19<hanf>lol
16:20-!-LordAro [56890f09@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
16:21<LordAro>oh! Bjarni :)
16:23<LordAro>planetmaker: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=968970#p968970 <-- was mostly a joke, you know ;)
16:25<Swissfan91>is anyone on here a dab hand with MS Visio?
16:26-!-perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has joined #openttd
16:30<Elukka>Eddi|zuHaus: what's up with the three sprites in between the two rows here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1801/p8_front_5lu.png
16:30<Elukka>want to make sure i'm not missing anything
16:33-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d08ed04.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
16:34<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22902 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix: The name of the heightmap glitches in the 'play heightmap' window.
16:41-!-jpx_ [jpx_@a91-156-244-221.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:42<@Bjarni>bahh.... my log is too big. It's still not done opening the document
16:43<__ln__>Master Bjarni, what's up?
16:43<@Bjarni>I wondered when I last showed up in the channel
16:44<@Bjarni>meaning the application have been trying to open the txt file for like 20 minutes now
16:44<@Bjarni>it starts like this
16:44<@Bjarni>Mar 25 14:14:12 --- Topic for #openttd is All hail Ludde, our King | http://svn.openttd.com | All hail Wiggo, our bitch
16:44<@Bjarni>Mar 25 14:14:12 --- Topic for #openttd set by wiggo at Wed Mar 17 23:58:48
16:44<@Bjarni>that is 2004
16:45<frosch123>did you switch to windows?
16:46<frosch123>or is there no 'tail' on osx? :p
16:46<@Bjarni>just did use tail
16:46<@Bjarni>and got what I wanted within seconds
16:46<@Bjarni>as usual, using anything with a GUI is slower
16:47<@Bjarni>and in fact I was here in July
16:47-!-perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
16:49<__ln__>Bjarni: but didn't say nothing?
16:49<@Bjarni>I didn't check
16:49<@Bjarni>most likely I said something
16:49<@Bjarni>but it's possible it was just PMs
16:50<@Bjarni>it takes 26 seconds to cat my log file
16:50<@Bjarni>and display everything in the terminal
16:51<frosch123>how long does it take for you to read it?
16:51<frosch123>can you please measure that
16:52<@Bjarni>what is the command for word count and linecount?
16:53<frosch123>wc
16:53<frosch123>like toilet
16:55<@Bjarni>$ wc openTTD-#openttd.txt
16:55<@Bjarni> 1292188 14439294 88676336 openTTD-#openttd.txt
16:55<@Bjarni>could take a while to read
16:56<LordAro>lol
16:57-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@94.142.234.1] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:59<Elukka>hmmm
16:59<Elukka>sunlight doesn't shine from the upper left in openttd, it's from the upper right
16:59-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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17:00<frosch123>the direction of sunlight in openttd is as consistent as the direction of wind
17:00<Elukka>ha
17:00<Elukka>if i was really, really lazy i'd just mirror my sprites
17:00<@Bjarni>wow
17:00<@Bjarni>that logfile is the size of 30,5 lord of the rings
17:01<@Bjarni>based on wordcount
17:01-!-LordAro [56890f09@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
17:01<@Bjarni>meaning I can read the 3 books and multiply the time by 30 and then I have an estimate of how long it takes to read the log
17:02<__ln__>a lot of it is joins and parts
17:02<@Bjarni>there is a lot of joining and parting in LotR too
17:02<@Bjarni>joining in Fellowship of the Ring
17:03<__ln__>true
17:04<Elukka>i bet now i can't unsee that sunlight direction isn't consistent
17:05<@Bjarni>Elukka: did you see the Mythbusters episode about the moon landing?
17:05<Elukka>yup!
17:05<Elukka>been a while though
17:06<@Bjarni>did you understand why the shadows didn't go in the same direction?
17:07<@Bjarni>they gave an explanation which should be good enough to show that light can come from more than one angle based on just a single light source
17:07<Elukka>ground elevation?
17:07<+glx>because they never landed on the moon
17:07<@Bjarni>but.... in reality they didn't show anything
17:08<@Bjarni>basically they didn't explain why it was like that, just "it is"
17:08<Elukka>on earth there's a whole lot of ambient light due to the atmosphere, but the side of an object facing the sun is still brighter
17:08<@Bjarni>and the camera was placed so people couldn't tell if they added extra light or not to do the recording
17:08<@Bjarni>meaning they didn't proved anything
17:09<Elukka>so, openttd ligthing is a conspiracy
17:09<@Bjarni>YES!
17:09-!-TWerkhoven[l] [~turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
17:09<@Bjarni>now you get it
17:09<Elukka>D:
17:09<Elukka>(we're not seriously believing the moon landings were faked though, right)
17:10<@Bjarni>eventually you will learn that all that stuff about Columbus finding new land is faked too
17:10<frosch123>imo most impressive about sunlight is the direction in which it arrives
17:11<@Bjarni>Elukka: how could they possibly not be. The Eagle lands and launches again.... they reconnect to that other vehicle in space
17:11<frosch123>if you have a usual human made small light source, the shadow is always bigger than the original object
17:11<frosch123>for the sun it is the other way around
17:11<Elukka>america doesn't actually exist, those military forces everywhere actaully originate from interdimensional portals
17:11<Elukka>*actually
17:12<@Bjarni>reconnect..... the Russians nearly lost Mir when they attempted to connect based on technology the US claimed to have used on Apollo 11
17:12<Elukka>yeah the sun is so far away the rays are effectively parallel
17:12-!-zachanim1 [~zach@0x52b41806.static.bcbnet.dk] has joined #openttd
17:12<@Bjarni>turned out that all simulations the Russians did ended up in failure
17:12<@Bjarni>and they concluded it couldn't be done
17:12<Elukka>what
17:12<Elukka>okay, irony is hard to detect
17:13<@Bjarni>it's not possible to connect two objects in space without crashing them too fast into each other unless you use advanced technology to help you
17:13<@Bjarni>such as laser range detection
17:13<frosch123>Elukka: i mean: the sun is bigger than every other object you see, so the light encloses small objects, so they do not cast a shadow anymore
17:13<@Bjarni>Apollo 11 didn't use such stuff
17:13<Elukka>you are kidding right
17:13<@Bjarni>no
17:14<Elukka>if you really had to you could eye the docking with no instruments
17:14<Elukka>it probably wouldn't succeed but it's possible
17:14<Elukka>first you plan your trajectory so that you end up on the same orbit as the object you're docking to... then when you're close, you can mostly forget about trajectories and just fly
17:15<@Bjarni>and then you either use all your fuel to make corrections or you come in too fast
17:15<Elukka>you can't come in too fast if you're on the same orbit
17:16<Elukka>the orbital velocity around an object at a certain altitude is a constnat
17:16<@Bjarni>because the human eye can't tell distance in space... at least not good enough for this task
17:16<Elukka>constant
17:16<+glx>maybe they had help from aliens
17:16<+glx>they have stargate anyway
17:16<Elukka>both the soviets and americans managed in-space docking of two spacecraft in the 1960's
17:17<Elukka>i don't think it's ever actually been eyeballed... but it doesn't need particularly advanced technology
17:17<+glx>soon the ISS will be lost
17:17<__ln__>Bjarni: we are not talking about mere humans, but astronauts
17:17<Elukka>but it had its risks. all the docking required for the apollo mission architecture was considered a downside
17:17<George>how many times does CB 26 happen, while 1 animation frame is displayed?
17:18<Elukka>there's nothing magical about docking that would have made it impossible in the 60's
17:18-!-zachanima [~zach@0x52b41806.static.bcbnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:18<frosch123>George: do you mean cb 27?
17:19<George>no. CB26
17:19<__ln__>Bjarni: what about the other arguments that Savage and Hyneman presented?
17:19<frosch123>hmm, what does cb26 have to do with frames?
17:19<Elukka>before apollo, there was gemini, which were missions designed to practice orbital rendezvous and docking in preparation for apollo
17:19<Elukka>there were also test flights of apollo on low earth orbit
17:20<Elukka>incidentally, apollo spacecraft also docked with soviet soyuz spacecraft
17:20<@Bjarni><__ln__> Bjarni: what about the other arguments that Savage and Hyneman presented? <-- I can't remember those :p
17:20<@Bjarni>it has been ages since I saw that show
17:21<frosch123>George: i mean, cb 26 decides which frame to pick, so if you change the frame on every cb, then it is called once per frame? or what?
17:21<Elukka>if apollo was somehow faked, the soviets would have been the first to reveal it
17:21<__ln__>Bjarni: one of those was the retroreflector
17:21<@Bjarni>btw the DVB-T TV broadcaster here has problems.... too few customers
17:21<@Bjarni>they made all channels free for a while
17:22<@Bjarni>and then I saw that they broadcast channels in as low as 1 Mbit/s
17:22<Elukka>there's also the funny thing that the soviets, among others, tracked apollo
17:22<@Bjarni>that's not really good
17:22<Elukka>they watched it
17:22<Elukka>it did what it did
17:22<__ln__>indeed, the soviets' watch was another argument
17:22<Elukka>the low orbit test flights before apollo... you could probably have seen those with the naked eye
17:23<Elukka>i've personally seen a japanese upper stage fly 600 km over my house one night
17:23<frosch123>George: the calls to cb 26 are only defined by property 10 resp. cb 27
17:23<@Bjarni><Elukka> there's also the funny thing that the soviets, among others, tracked apollo <-- The Apollo missions were cancelled once the Russians invented a way to track and hence follow the rockets all the way to the moon
17:23<sortkrudt>I think the early hebrew calculated the distance to the moon with 9% failure with their nakes eyes. not bad.
17:23<Elukka>there was no special way to track them
17:23<George>I intended once, but the way, my code works, makes me think that it happens several times
17:23<Elukka>they could have tracked them with ww2 technology
17:23<sortkrudt>3k years ago
17:23<@Bjarni>to begin with the Russians were unable to see such a small object near the moon
17:23<Elukka>it wasn't invented then
17:23<George>I'll make more tests tomorrow
17:24<Elukka>do you still think docking was impossible then?
17:24<@Bjarni> <sortkrudt> I think the early hebrew calculated the distance to the moon with 9% failure with their nakes eyes. not bad. <--- the Indians figured out the Earth is round around 1500 years ago and calculated the diameter within 1% or something like that.... not bad either
17:25<+glx>but at that time it wasn't round yet
17:25<Elukka>honestly, if you have any idea how orbits function, you would understand how a rendezvous is possible
17:25<sortkrudt>No, thats true. even tho catholism shouldnt represent christian nescessarly.
17:25<Elukka>nah, the ancient greeks knew earth was round
17:26<Elukka>knew its size pretty accurately too
17:26<sortkrudt>europe have allways been attached to 'politically correctness'. which kills science and philosophy.
17:26-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f656c.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:26<+glx>and everybody knows the sun turns around the earth
17:26<@Bjarni><Elukka> honestly, if you have any idea how orbits function <-- I do and I understand how objects can move at the same speed in orbit.... however when they dock they do NOT move at the same speed
17:27<Elukka>yeah but at the time scales and velocities involved it doesn't matter that much
17:27<George>frosch123: I made the code, that changes idustry registers instead of changing graphics, and then make graphics depending on register, not animation frame (this way I have more than 256 animation stages). But looks like it runs faster, than the animation with the same delay.
17:27<Elukka>if you accelerate 5 m/s to reach and dock with an object, you would eventually end up at a very slightly different orbit
17:27<Elukka>but on a timescale of minutes, not really
17:27<Elukka>do you think the soviets faked their dockings too?
17:28<sortkrudt>its awesome how to calculate the earth size within 1% margine with nakes eyes. dont understand how they do that.
17:28<@Bjarni>sounds good..... 5 m/s with 80 km to go
17:28<George>But maybe I'm too tired and mistaken
17:28<Elukka>why would you have 80 km to go
17:28<@Bjarni>and how do you know it's 5 m/s and not -5 m/s?
17:28<Elukka>you put it on an orbit close to the object you wish to dock to
17:28-!-KouDy [~KouDy@ip-78-102-233-190.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:28<Elukka>well, if the docking target is behind you then it's -5m/s
17:29<Elukka>first unmanned soviet docking... 1967
17:29<@Bjarni>I think you missed my point
17:29<Elukka>first manned soviet docking 1969
17:29<@Bjarni>the two objects are really far from each other... possibly hundreds of km
17:29<@Bjarni>they close in on each other at really high speed
17:29<Elukka>no, they don't
17:30<Elukka>they close in at a very small relative velocity
17:30<Elukka>you also launch so that when the craft that attempts to dock with the other craft reaches orbit, it's already close to it
17:31<Elukka>if you wanted to, you could download orbiter sim and perform an apollo rendezvous with the same instruments that were used in real life :P
17:31<@Bjarni>orbit is not like a lane on a road... it's not just "let's use this one". Moving into the very same orbit like you talk about is quite hard
17:31<Elukka>yeah, it's not trivial
17:31-!-Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:31<Elukka>rendezvous to within docking distance took some trial and error
17:32<Elukka>"In 1962 and again 1963, the Soviet Union launched pairs of spacecraft simultaneously, Vostok 3 and 4 and Vostok 5 and 6. In both cases, the launch rockets' guidance systems inserted the two craft into nearly identical orbits; however the precision of such a system was not nearly enough to achieve true rendezvous."
17:32<Elukka>subsequently, techniques were developed enough so that docking was possible
17:32<@Bjarni>simulators are just that: simulators. I once drove 50 km in MSTS with 40 wagons without adding water or coal to the locomotive. A simulator proves nothing
17:33<Elukka>do you think the ISS is also impossible? modern spacecraft with the possible exception of the shuttle have no more maneuvering fuel than apollo
17:33<Elukka>yet they dock with it all the time
17:33<__ln__>i once (no, twice, thrice) drove 1 km/h over the speed limit in MSTS, and derailed.
17:33<@Bjarni>modern spacecraft use laser to tell the distance and difference in speed and calculate how to handle the engines based on that
17:34<@Bjarni><__ln__> i once (no, twice, thrice) drove 1 km/h over the speed limit in MSTS, and derailed. <--- I once drove 135 km/h on a 75 km/h track without derailing. MSTS can be somewhat odd
17:34<Elukka>i believe soyuz still uses radar
17:35<@Bjarni>that's possible
17:35<Elukka>if you had a spare $20 million or so you could buy a ticket to go up on one and see how it's done
17:35<@Bjarni>but the principle is the same
17:35<Elukka>do you suppose apollo didn't have radar technology?
17:35<@Bjarni>it doesn't matter how it's done today when it wasn't done like that back then
17:36<Elukka>actually it was done pretty much the same :P
17:36<Swissfan91>does anyone use Paint.net for sprites ?
17:36<@Bjarni>this is getting us nowhere
17:37<@Bjarni>(just like 60'ties rocket technology)
17:37<Elukka>apollo had a radar transponder... this was common technology in the 60's
17:37<Elukka>lasers are not needed and are still not commonly used on docking
17:38<@Bjarni>here is the thing. It was the cold war. Russia had Sputnik and the Americans were scared that it would drop nuclear bombs on them. The Americans decided to place nuclear rockets on the moon because the Russians can't attack them there
17:38<@Bjarni>Apollo was part of this
17:38<Elukka>that would make absolutely zero sense
17:39<SpComb>military nuclear stuff often doesn't
17:39<@Bjarni>while they didn't actually go there, the Russians at the time couldn't be sure and it scared the hell out of them
17:39<Elukka>it doesn't make sense in the context of nuclear war strategy
17:39<Elukka>a missile originating on the moon would take a couple days to reach earth and would be comparably easy to intercept
17:39<@Bjarni>it makes as much sense as placing nuclear missiles under the ice of the North Pole
17:39<Elukka>(that wasn't done either)
17:40<@Bjarni>Russia still have Typhoon subs there with like 26 missiles in each
17:40<Elukka>oh yeah, subs
17:40<Elukka>a missile launched from the US would, on the other hand, reach russia in hours... and it would be practically impossible to intercept all of them
17:40<Elukka>you wouldn't want to place them on orbit either
17:40<@Bjarni>the idea wasn't to block an attack as this is really hard
17:41<@Bjarni>the idea is to scare the other side not to attack because both sides would lose
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni comes and the discussion gets horribly off topic. interesting causality :p
17:41<Elukka>moon missiles would do nothing to that
17:41<Elukka>that was the whole basis of the cold war
17:41<@Bjarni>if the US had missiles on the moon, then if Russia attacked America, nomatter what they did, they couldn't prevent a counterattack
17:42<Elukka>both sides had enough missiles to decimate the opposition, and there was nothing either of them could do to stop it
17:42<Elukka>they couldn't prevent a counterattack either way
17:42-!-hanf [~Klaus@cpc2-hart4-0-0-cust324.11-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:42<Elukka>missiles still take hours to reach their target
17:42<Elukka>counterattacks would have been launched within minutes
17:42<@Bjarni>I know
17:43<Elukka>placing nukes on the moon would accomplish nothing
17:43<@Bjarni>I'm not saying this is sane when you stop and think about it, but it's what they did
17:43<Elukka>some proof to support that?
17:43<Eddi|zuHause><Elukka> Eddi|zuHaus: what's up with the three sprites in between the two rows here: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1801/p8_front_5lu.png <-- no idea, must ask oberhümer... probably just examples/drafts... nothing the build script would recognize
17:44<Elukka>alright
17:44<@Bjarni>sure... I sneaked in and took photos of their plans..... what do you think? :p
17:44<+glx><Elukka> both sides had enough missiles to decimate the opposition, and there was nothing either of them could do to stop it <-- not only the opposition
17:45<@Bjarni>they could tell everybody on the planet like 5 or 10 times
17:45<@Bjarni>still can.... I think
17:45<@Bjarni>kill everybody... not sure how many times
17:45<Elukka>not really
17:45<Elukka>the point was to destroy the opposing nation, they couldn't really kill everyone
17:45<Elukka>it would have been terrible though
17:46<+glx>yeah radiations are known to stay within the borders
17:46<Elukka>cancer rates would be quite bad globally, but it wouldn't kill the entire population
17:47<Elukka>just every survivor's life would suck
17:47<Elukka>both russia and america had extremely twitchy trigger fingers, so that the doctrine of mutually assured destruction would be enforced... a few times the world came really, really close to nuclear war
17:47<Elukka>like, dependent on one guy saying yes or no
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>they say the closest was when the russian early warning system had a malfunction
17:48<Elukka>yeah
17:49<Eddi|zuHause>it measured the light over suspected starting spots, and triggered on some solar reflections
17:49<Elukka>there was also a case where officers on board a soviet sub near cuba thought the war had already began, and were about to launch a nuclear torpedo at an american group
17:49<Elukka>3 of them had to agree to launch it, only one didn't
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>that would probably have caused some diplomatic fallout, but not necessarily a war
17:50<Elukka>yeah it wasn't as close as the incident you mentioned
17:50<Elukka>would have been very risky though
17:51<Elukka>hey, remember that time a couple years back when the US wanted to reheat some good old cold war tensions with russia?
17:51<Elukka>they were going to build missile silos in... poland i think
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what you mean
17:52<Elukka>they said it was for interceptors in case a missile was launched by a 'rogue state'
17:52<Elukka>but they could have launched nukes just fine
17:52<Elukka>they did the same thing to russia that the soviets did to the US during the cold war, with cuba
17:52-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:52<Elukka>eventually the US backed out of it
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>hm... they didn't really... only very late after the economy crisis hit, they finally decided to cut down the budget
17:54<@Bjarni>At one time Russia detected an attack from America and was about to counterattack, but then the leader thought "this can't be right. Nobody would attack like that with just 4 missiles" and called off the counterattack. Turned out the satellite had spotted the rising sun as rocket engines and raised a false alarm.
17:54<Elukka>it wasn't a leader, just an officer whose orders were to report it as a launch
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, that was what i meant above
17:54<Elukka>we're all terribly lucky he didn't
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17:55<Elukka>because soviet doctrine was to launch every missile in response
17:55<Elukka>in turn, american doctrine was to launch all of theirs
17:55<Eddi|zuHause>it also turned out that the NATO strategy for a first strike would have been to knock out moscow first, so a few rockets would have actually been plausible
17:55<@Bjarni>he didn't know that :p
17:56<__ln__>indeed it was just an officer, who got fired or at least transferred after the incident
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but he said later that if he knew that, he would have decided otherwise
17:56<@Bjarni>and neither did I
17:56*Bjarni wonders why Denmark joined NATO
17:57<@Bjarni>NATO declared Denmark to be the front line and too tricky to defend meaning in case of an attack, Denmark would be on it's own
17:57<@peter1138>yeah but you've got bacon
17:57<appe>i was reading: 08:11 <@Bjarni> NATO declared war on Denmark
17:57-!-douknoukem [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-83-190.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:57<appe>and got brown pants.
17:58<@Bjarni>Denmark paid money to NATO, yet NATO refused to help funding military defenses in Denmark
17:58<@Bjarni>appe: LOL
17:58<Eddi|zuHause>easy. just reuse the ones the germans left there :p
17:58<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: those 2000+ bunkers are all placed to defend the west because the enemy is England
17:59<@Bjarni>Germany never defended Denmark against either Poland or Russia
17:59<Eddi|zuHause>that makes sense ;)
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18:01<Elukka>got around to mostly finishing a sprite hopefully for CETS
18:02<@Bjarni>We now know that a Russian lady was a spy for Germany and she told that Churchill would place his military in Norway and attack Germany though Denmark. He predicted that Germany would counterattack and the frontline would be in Denmark. Germany decided to beat England to it and conquered Denmark and Norway
18:03<@Bjarni>and England was the enemy from their point of view, so it all makes sense
18:03<@Bjarni>we will never know if England would have attacked like that if Germany didn't attack
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>that was probably before they entered a war with russia
18:04<@Bjarni>yeah
18:04<@Bjarni>like 3 years before
18:05<__ln__>Bjarni: you should visit this channel more often than every 23 weeks and 1 days.
18:05<@Bjarni>Germany attacked on the 9th of April 1940 at 4:20. This means most Danes woke with German presence everywhere
18:06<__ln__>Bjarni: do you have passport control at borders atm, btw?
18:06<@Bjarni>sure and the likes of you are likely to be rejected because you look suspicious :p
18:07<@Bjarni>what do you think?
18:07<__ln__>yes?
18:07<@Bjarni>there is some checks, but not like the papers claims
18:08<@Bjarni>Denmark increased the number of people checking people at the borders. When the new setup is done, then there will be one customs worker on the Danish side of the border for every 20 on the Swedish side
18:08<@Bjarni>all that stuff about closing the boarder is nonsense
18:09<@peter1138>bjarni
18:09<@peter1138>we ought to rewrite autoreplace
18:09<@Bjarni>German newspaper(s) claimed it was to block German tourists from entering the country.
18:10<@Bjarni>however reality is new CCTV, which will trigger if stolen cars tries to leave the country and stuff like that
18:10<@Bjarni>and an estimated 1% of vehicles will be stopped, not everybody
18:11<@planetmaker>it's a violation of the schengen treaty
18:11<@Bjarni>no it's not
18:11<@planetmaker>and a huge step back in the freedom of movement
18:11<@Bjarni>some people claimed that for political reasons, though nobody claims it for legal reasons
18:11<@planetmaker>for diplomatic reasons
18:13<@Bjarni>it's a question of open boarders where organized burglars enters the country, steals everything and then leave. To slow that down the politicians decided to add more custom workers at the boarders to look for stolen goods
18:13<__ln__>my passport was indeed checked the previous time i entered denmark! ...
18:13<@Bjarni>EU told Denmark to do something like that
18:13<__ln__>... maybe because i was arriving from Washington, D.C.
18:13<@peter1138>mine was too
18:14<@planetmaker>now, that's quite the truth reversed, eh, Bjarni?
18:14<@peter1138>maybe because it was 24 years ago
18:14<@Bjarni><__ln__> ... maybe because i was arriving from Washington, D.C. <-- entering from a non-EU country is kind of out of this issue
18:14<sortkrudt>open boarder wouldn't be an issue through free capitalsim.
18:14<@Bjarni>EU basically wants everybody to be checked when entering
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>i didn't even have a passport the last time i entered denmark
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we didn't even go past the checkpoint
18:14<@planetmaker>ID cards are good enough
18:15<sortkrudt>ID cards is reduntant. Cash should be enough.
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: didn't have an ID card either
18:15<Eddi|zuHause>i was like 9 years ;)
18:15<@Bjarni>The idea is to have an EU ID card to prove that people don't have to show passport
18:15<@planetmaker>:-)
18:15<@peter1138>(actually i would've been on my parents' passports...
18:15<@peter1138>)
18:15<Elukka>eddi
18:15<__ln__>for me, my driver's license should be enough to carry with me in denmark.
18:15<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/umbauwagen-1.png
18:15<Elukka>what do you think?
18:16<sortkrudt>EU is more and more like a social democratic state. I'm glad norway aint in EU.
18:16<@Bjarni>however EU can't agree on such cards and so far the only card accepted to prove a person shouldn't show passports when entering is.... a passport :p
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18:19<@Bjarni>sortkrudt: yet Norway pays money to EU and change laws to fit EU to avoid a boycott
18:20<__ln__>norway and switzerland are two poor third world countries
18:21<@Bjarni><sortkrudt> EU is more and more like a social democratic state <--- remove democratic and you are on to something. Elected politicians aren't allowed to speak unless they are in a group of likeminded elected in at least 7 countries
18:22<@Bjarni>Norway is an oil producing and exporting country... yet it's like their economy doesn't really benefit from it anymore
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: might be slightly to monotone-greyish
18:24<Elukka>that can be modified
18:24<Elukka>it's difficult to strike a balance between the color scheme on the template and visibility
18:24<Elukka>this particular coach doesn't have particularly eye-popping colors
18:24<Elukka>do you think more color, more contrast or brighter?
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: and when you look at this picture: http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/7455/98980fk262knigstein0667qg5.jpg the windows could be slightly larger and closer together
18:26<Elukka>hmm
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>means you can make the doors more visible
18:26<Elukka>it would be possible but then they'd be significantly larger
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>try 2px window 1px inbetween
18:27<Elukka>i'll see how it looks
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18:27<Eddi|zuHause>and in the partially-diagonal views, move the wheels slightly outwards
18:29<@planetmaker>http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32006R0562:EN:NOT <-- Bjarni, read the treaty yourself. Title III, Chapter I is about internal borders
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18:32<__ln__>gotta go zzzzz ->
18:32<sortkrudt>Bjarni: sure its an oil nation, but we are not a working nation.
18:33<Elukka>hmm
18:33*Bjarni falis to see a violation
18:33<Elukka>moving the windows closer together on the side views makes the door areas much too large
18:34<@Bjarni>planetmaker: what have you been told, which should be a violation?
18:34<Elukka>small adjustments on the diagonals can be made though
18:34<Elukka>they're already 2x2 pixels
18:35<Elukka>not sure what you mean with the wheels?
18:35<@Bjarni>btw I encountered police both when entering and leaving Germany
18:36<sortkrudt>I miss the times where you can be drunk and hunt, or drive.
18:36<@Bjarni>The Germans had placed two police officers, who watched who boarded the ferry
18:36<@Bjarni>and when going the other way the police were present with no less than 3 police cars
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: the wheels are too far inwards, the ends of the wagons hang in the air
18:37<Elukka>oh
18:37<sortkrudt>nothing is more fun than being abit tipsy and shooting clay-doves. :)
18:38<Elukka>they do hang in the air for a couple meters on the real ones though
18:38<@Bjarni>sortkrudt: using black powder ;)
18:38<sortkrudt>me too.
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 13300/2
18:38<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 6650
18:38<Elukka>the outer wheels are between the first two large windows
18:38<sortkrudt>I have flint, percussion and catridged filled with blackpowder. what do u have?
18:39<@Bjarni>sortkrudt: were you glued to the TV when they broadcasted Hurtigruten - minutt for minutt?
18:39*Bjarni was
18:39<sortkrudt>No, but I have watched some of it. alot of nice places. :)
18:39<sortkrudt>its quite expensive to take the boat. about 2K euro or so to get the whole view from bergen to north norway
18:40<@Bjarni>I saw when the horses fell over and landed on a rider.... they removed that part from their homepage... now there is a gap or just front camera
18:40<sortkrudt>I'm workin on two blackpowder weapons to hunt with.
18:40<Eddi|zuHause># Enten jagen macht besoffen doppelt so viel Spaß
18:41<sortkrudt>but for now I got a pump-shotgun I use for hunting birds.
18:41<sortkrudt>bist du aus deutschland Bjarni?
18:41<Elukka>eddi: do you think i should stick with the template colors, or make it pop out more?
18:42<@planetmaker>English only
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>(there's a pun in there, because in the song he's drunk driving, and "Ente" is a name for the Citroen 2cv)
18:42<sortkrudt>sry planetmaker.
18:42<Elukka>the same paint was used on a lot of rail vehicles so that would essentially mean adjusting the template
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: especially less monotone
18:42<@Bjarni>sortkrudt: do I look like a German to you? :p
18:42<sortkrudt>wtf. i dont tell on nicks anymore :)
18:42<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: i haven't really checked how accurate the template colours are
18:42<sortkrudt>been on irc since '96. lots of nick :)
18:42<Elukka>they look alright to me
18:43<Elukka>they're accurate, but i'm not sure they're ideal for the game
18:43<sortkrudt>Bjarni, you have some b.powder guns?
18:43<@Bjarni>I have used this nick since 2004
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>but really, make random pixels slightly darker and slightly lighter
18:43<Elukka>hmm
18:43<sortkrudt>my nick is actually 'blackpowder' in old norwegian or danish. :)
18:43<@Bjarni>I haven't been shooting in ages and never much
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>so it's not all one monotone area
18:43<Elukka>what do you think about weathering the roofs and such?
18:43<Eddi|zuHause>no
18:43<sortkrudt>Bjarni, well. its fun. now the hunting' season have started so :)
18:44<@Bjarni><sortkrudt> my nick is actually 'blackpowder' in old norwegian or danish. :) <--- I know that.... and yet you assume me to be German.... I don't get it
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>try orienting on a clean wagon :)
18:44<sortkrudt>I didnt know that you knew that! DOH! :)
18:44<Elukka>it's hard to make more detail than there is!
18:44<Elukka>the sides and roof are flat green and flat grey respectively
18:45<sortkrudt>yea, ur danish. i see :9
18:45<Elukka>i suppose some very light lines on the roofs to emulate the real, thin ones... they wouldn't be visible at this scale, but it might give a better impression of the wagon
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: no, i mean just make the pixels slightly lighter or darker, that the area is less "flat"
18:45<@Bjarni><Bjarni> sortkrudt: using black powder ;) <--- this could have tipped you that I might understand it
18:45<Elukka>just random pixels?
18:45<sortkrudt>Bjarni, if u want go for a rifle of blackpowder i suggest rolling black. very nice rifle indeed. doable for hunting.
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: look at the DBSet, hardly any 2 neighbouring pixels have the same colour
18:46<Elukka>i wanted to but didn't have any dbset sprites handy :P
18:46<@Bjarni>sortkrudt: I have no plans for shooting anything
18:46<sortkrudt>Oh. Ok.
18:46<@Bjarni>though trollshooting can be quite tempting
18:46<sortkrudt>hunting is so nice tho.
18:47<Elukka>perhaps i'll take a photo of a real wagon, shrink it to ttd size and see what color differences there are :D
18:47<@Bjarni>I think it's really funny in Back to the Future where Doc adds what looks like gunpowder or something to the steam locomotive and it just moves faster
18:47<@Bjarni>makes absolutely no technical sense whatsoever
18:48*Bjarni knows what to do to a steam locomotive to make it go faster than specifications
18:48<sortkrudt>the whole movie doesnt make any technical sense whatsoever. hehe
18:48<@Bjarni>though it's a really bad idea since it can blow up instead
18:48<sortkrudt>so u dont have any bpowder weapons?
18:49<@Bjarni>no
18:49<@Bjarni>I once had a bbgun
18:49<sortkrudt>Oh. okey.
18:49<@Bjarni>or rather, long time borrow
18:49<sortkrudt>we have this law that you dont need to aply to cops if your weapon is older than 1890. which is cool. :)
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: it's obviously something that makes the fire burn hotter.
18:50<sortkrudt>i have comboweapon (shotgun 16gauge and 12,7mm) and an old weapon fro 1855. norwegian classy one. only 512 in world.
18:51<@Bjarni>that legalises Madsen maskinkanonen
18:51<sortkrudt>yes.
18:51<+glx><@Bjarni> though it's a really bad idea since it can blow up instead <-- Doc didn't care, there was no bridge anyway
18:51<@Bjarni>do you know that one?
18:51<sortkrudt>never heard of it. 2sec ill google
18:51<@Bjarni>glx: blowing up before the bridge would be bad
18:52<sortkrudt>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/20_mm_Madsen.jpg/220px-20_mm_Madsen.jpg <-
18:52<sortkrudt>used during the 2th world war. still older than 1890? :)
18:53<sortkrudt>well. any weapon older than 1890 is legal in norway without aplying to the cops afaik.
18:53<@Bjarni>hmm
18:53<@Bjarni>now I wonder
18:53<@Bjarni>was it from 1888 or 1892
18:53<sortkrudt>well. norway is strict on it. even a rifle from 1891 you ahve to aply on. on of my weapons are from 1891 or so, but I say 1890 so it would be legal. hehe
18:53<Wolf01>'night
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18:54<@Bjarni>the thing is this gun is quite powerful
18:54<sortkrudt>DISA was made in 1900.
18:54<sortkrudt>so prolly not 1880 :)
18:54<sortkrudt>http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISA
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18:55<@Bjarni>if I recall correctly, Germany lost more armoured vehicles to this gun than Denmark lost soldiers when the Germans invaded
18:55<@Bjarni>"Udviklingen af det luftkølede maskingevær begyndte i 1879" <-- before 1890 ;)
18:56<sortkrudt>Ja. Det er sant. Uansett så kommer det ann på produksjonsdato av det aktuelle vaabenet.
18:56<sortkrudt>(sry, forgot my self writing danish or smt)
18:56<@Bjarni>NOT Danish :P
18:56<sortkrudt>close too*! lulz
18:57<sortkrudt>you just have potatoes in ur throat. thats the main difference ^^
18:57<Elukka>eddi: here's some really subtle tweaks, upper row is new, lower row is old, what do you think?
18:57<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/tweaks.png
18:57<@Bjarni>http://www.steampunk.dk/wp-content/uploads/220306.jpeg <-- it's funny that the greatly planned and strong German invasion encountered serious problems from defense like this
18:58<sortkrudt>Well. Will of men who want freedom counts 1000 of arrogant people.
18:59<sortkrudt>Small countries fighting huge countries has to do like vietnam; small group sabotaging and such
18:59<sortkrudt>http://www.middlesexvillagetrading.com/MDBF.shtml this is one of my shotguns. blackpowder :)
19:00<sortkrudt>kind'a funny weapon but crap metal.
19:00<@Bjarni>the thing is the motorbikes (Danish construction) had a top speed of 85 km/h. Germany used Panzer I with a top speed of 40 km/h and something else with a top speed of 80 km/h. This means the Danish soldiers could apply a hit and run tactic
19:01<sortkrudt>I guess. I don't know that much about danish history.
19:02<@Bjarni>the Germans used 11 mm cannons while the Danes used 20 mm cannons with explosive armour piercing shells.
19:02<sortkrudt>We just hide in the forrest, shot, and run. hehe
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19:02<@planetmaker>@topic add -1 | today: free history lessons
19:02<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: topic add [<channel>] <topic>
19:03<@Bjarni>Which means the Danes set them to automatic and removed German vehicles one by one. In Norway the same kind of vehicles were used and nobody in Norway had strong enough weapons to penetrate the armourplating
19:03<sortkrudt>Lot to learn about history leasson.
19:03<sortkrudt>My grandfather was one of the secret undercovers. mainly dealing with explosives, and destroying bridges.
19:04<sortkrudt>butz nordic countries were lucky cause main of our people was arian. :9
19:04<@Bjarni>my grandmother supplied food to resistance people, who had to go underground and hide
19:04<sortkrudt>yes. I'm proud of knowing this fact of the brave men of those times.
19:04<sortkrudt>not to fuck with nazis.
19:05<@Bjarni>many girls did
19:05<sortkrudt>hihi
19:05<sortkrudt>yea. well. girls.
19:05<sortkrudt>I bet many soldiers was like: whatever.. when war is finished, i have to move from this crap fatherland
19:05<@Bjarni>and after the Germans left, those girls were captured, shaven on their heads (no more hair) and then put on public display
19:06<sortkrudt>yea. heard of that. common in france aswell
19:06<sortkrudt>its hard to judge.
19:06<sortkrudt>when you got a govt. forcing you do be in a war, its hard to know who wants this war or not
19:06<@Bjarni>The Danish parlament resigned in 1943
19:07<@Bjarni>which meant the country was without parliament when the war ended.
19:07<sortkrudt>we did resign in '45.
19:07<sortkrudt>Ok.
19:07<sortkrudt>I like no parliment tho, but. cant last forever.
19:08<+glx>works in belgium
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>they have a parliament, but no government
19:08<@Bjarni>which left a huge problem... who should govern. They formed a government, which included all parties and some resistance people and they controlled the country until the next election (later that year... I think)
19:08<sortkrudt>pure capitalism works best. its the only ethical system.
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>pure capitalism doesn't work at all...
19:09<sortkrudt>it does. history shows us this.
19:09<sortkrudt>we haven't had pure capitalism since 1800's in US and hongkong the 1900s
19:09<Elukka>it results in starving, people dying due to lack of healthcare, and other such fun stuff
19:09<sortkrudt>sadly.
19:09<Elukka>not what i'd call ethical
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>only if you forget 90% of the history
19:09<sortkrudt>Elukka, thats bs.
19:10<sortkrudt>no Eddi|zuHause. You need to understand the history.
19:10<sortkrudt>what is capitalism?
19:10<Elukka>it does, though
19:10<Elukka>what happens in pure capitalism if you flat out run out of money and can't secure a job?
19:10<sortkrudt>it is only people who are allowed to choose products.
19:10<sortkrudt>there will be no problems with jobs in pure capitalism
19:10<sortkrudt>no taxes, no regulations.
19:10<Elukka>yes there will
19:10<sortkrudt>works best.
19:10<sortkrudt>the world is black and white. either hardcore socialism or capitalism. can't avoid this.
19:10<@Bjarni>When London told that the war was over for Denmark, then everybody started celebrating. I read one story about a train arriving at a station and the station master informed the crew of the news. One big issue: the train had two German soldiers as guards..... they decided to carefully tell them and what happened next?
19:11<@Bjarni>take a guess :p
19:11<Elukka>no roads, toxic food and children's toys...
19:11<Elukka>a couple of results of no taxes and regulations that pop to mind
19:11<sortkrudt>Elukka. bullshit. myths only. roads would be much better in free capitalism.
19:11<Elukka>why do you think pure capitalism would mean everyone has a job anyway?
19:11<sortkrudt>its a myth that govt. has to care with govt. school, roads and healthcare.
19:12<sortkrudt>Elukka, cause peopel are genuinly egoists. its unavoidable.
19:12-!-perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has joined #openttd
19:12<sortkrudt>it's the way, truth and the life.
19:12-!-Neon [~Neon@dslb-178-004-177-245.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.]
19:12<Elukka>in the real world, only countries with significant government participation in school, roads and healthcare have it work well
19:12<sortkrudt>only on paper.
19:12<sortkrudt>you really don't see the picture.
19:12<@Bjarni>capitalism sucks in it's pure form. Socialism sucks big time in pure or or semi-pure form.
19:12<sortkrudt>I could mention co uple of names, and you would harvest alot of political understand if you would see some if it.
19:13<Elukka>is one of them rand
19:13<sortkrudt>Bjarni, no. capitalism is what we are tought since todlers.
19:13<sortkrudt>Rand is awesome.
19:13<Elukka>haha
19:13<sortkrudt>I'm and randist.
19:13<sortkrudt>-d
19:13<@Bjarni><sortkrudt> Bjarni, no. capitalism is what we are tought since todlers. <-- and there are issues
19:13<sortkrudt>Bjarni, no, you have to care about your self. if you wouldn't you wouldnt play tycoon :)
19:14<Swissfan91>can anybody here draw good buildings in OTTD? or point me towards a good tutorial?
19:14<@Bjarni>pure capitalism includes stuff like China selling toothpaste to South America containing fake toothpaste, which is discovered when people drop dead
19:14<sortkrudt>bs.
19:14<Elukka>yes it does
19:14<Elukka>it's the most profitable thing for the corporations to do
19:14<sortkrudt>in capitalism you wouldnt have paper works. you just kill people who want to force people or swindle.
19:14<sortkrudt>:)
19:14<Elukka>that would quickly end up pure fascism
19:14<sortkrudt>no.
19:14<sortkrudt>it could, but no.
19:15<@Bjarni>btw did anybody even read my question? :)
19:15<sortkrudt>fascism includes lobbyism, whcih is not possible in capitalism.
19:15<sortkrudt>no. hehe
19:15<Elukka>anyway, in pure capitalism... suppose you study for a field and the economy changes, and that field does not need any more laborers
19:15<Elukka>you have no job, and no money to study for another field
19:15<Elukka>what happens to you?
19:16<sortkrudt>Elukka, i have to beg of mercy of others, or move to the forrest and live by my means - or die.
19:16<sortkrudt>but since working is legal this would probably never happend.
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>in pure capitalism there is no mercy
19:16<@Bjarni>Elukka: sort of like the nuclear technicians/engineers in Germany? ;)
19:16<Elukka>being driven to the forest or dying is ethical to you?
19:16<Elukka>you die due to the whims of the free market, and this is ethical?
19:16<sortkrudt>yes it is, Eddi|zuHause. thats the point. US is the greatest charritable country for a reason.
19:17<sortkrudt>Elukka. yes. its more ethical to die without harming others than sucking life out of others.
19:17<Elukka>that's a pretty horrible viewpoint to be frank
19:17<@Bjarni><sortkrudt> yes it is, Eddi|zuHause. thats the point. US is the greatest charritable country for a reason. <--- hence US isn't pure capitalism
19:17<sortkrudt>only because you like to force people to do stuff they dont want to do, Elukka.
19:17<sortkrudt>Bjarni, it is the most capitaalistic country in the world.
19:18<Elukka>look, real people in the real world, if they're starving, they don't give a shit about ideology
19:18<@Bjarni>which shows no country has pure capitalism
19:18<sortkrudt>no. most people ar ethieves, thats right Elukka.
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: it is also the country with the highest demand for charity
19:18<Elukka>you wouldn't be espousing pure capitalism were you one of your nation's many poor people
19:18<sortkrudt>Bjarni, yes, no country is perfect, but it doesnt tell us not to achieve perfection.
19:18<sortkrudt>what is pure capitalism Elukka? choice?
19:18<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: that means there is an actual market for "charity"
19:18<Elukka>you say this only because you are sufficiently wealthy and do not wish to share
19:18<@Bjarni>sortkrudt: if US is pure capitalism, then how do you explain the health bill?
19:19<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause. ofcourse. dont you care about people? many do. and if they money for it, they will help
19:19<Elukka>in the united states, right now people die because they cannot afford healthcare
19:19<Elukka>there is no charity to them
19:19<Elukka>nobody helps them
19:19<Elukka>they just die
19:19<@Bjarni>btw it looks like the health bill turned out to be a real drain in the economy.... US has huge issues
19:19<sortkrudt>Bjarni, its the *most* capitalistic country, but they are moving to nordic structure which could jeapardize the whole secular lifestyle
19:19<Elukka>they die, due to curable diseases in a developed country well capable of curing them
19:19<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: that's only working because people are _not_ being capitalistic
19:20<sortkrudt>I'm against the healthbill. they could privatize everything. much better. everything is better in private.
19:20<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause. no. capitalistic is about caring about stuff.
19:20<Elukka>well, it's nice to know you support a system where people will literally die due to your ideology, and you believe it's ethical
19:20<Elukka>i won't engage in any more political discussions with you :)
19:20<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: capitalism is about caring about stuf that gets you anything in return!
19:20<Elukka>now! sprites
19:20<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/tweaks.png
19:20<sortkrudt>if you look at the norwegian, danish or whatever govt. you'll allways find 99% of the stuff made in the private. you can substract the private, and you have nothing
19:20<Elukka>upper is new, lower is old
19:21<Elukka>eddi, what do you think?
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: yes, i want privatised nuclear power stations. because that's worked so well!
19:21<Elukka>i added some lines to the roof, in real life they'd be too small to see at this scale but i still think it looks good
19:21<Elukka>(they do exist in real life, they're just rather thin)
19:21<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause. yes. if i give to my mother is of my knownledge that I have something in return. that means. i'm glad to help. it gives me something? would you ever play tycoon if it didnt GIVE you something?
19:21<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause. ofc. nuclearpower is the way of the future.
19:23<@Bjarni>sortkrudt: tell that to the people of Fukushima
19:23<sortkrudt>tell them not to allowe people like their emperor to be like this. taking side of nazis.
19:24<sortkrudt>I fully support fukushima bombing.
19:24<@Bjarni>wtf
19:24<+glx><sortkrudt> ... everything is better in private. <-- yeah rail safety in england was way better when it became private
19:24<@Bjarni>what did the emperor do?
19:24<sortkrudt>glx. u dont understand. private is no connection with the govt. at all. who ever can build whatever they want.
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: by that statement you successfully disqualified yourself
19:24<sortkrudt>Bjarni. take sides.
19:24<+glx>electricity in US is a nice thing too
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>fukushima != hiroshima
19:24<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause. yea right. heard this often. prolly because you think govt is ur God.
19:24<+glx>and it's totally private
19:25<@Bjarni>besides showing up on TV after the disaster and state that everybody should work together to overcome the disaster (mainly tsunami)
19:25<sortkrudt>basically. your life is most important. if you dont love ur self, you are nothing.
19:25<sortkrudt>we've seen ddr. we've seen ussr. socialism is not in our nature.
19:25<sortkrudt>we are egoists. deal with it people.
19:26*Elukka pokes Eddi
19:26-!-Progman [~progman@p57A19DED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:26<DDR>You've never seen me!
19:26<Elukka>any more suggestions on how to bring it up to the set's standards?
19:26<@Bjarni><EddizuHause> fukushima != hiroshima <-- Hiroshima is the target of one nuclear bomb (blame the Americans). Fukushima is the site of nuclear meltdown in 3!!! reactors and they are still out of control
19:26<@Bjarni>leaking radiation and stuff
19:26<+glx>less than chernobyl
19:27<sortkrudt>still less radiaton of scanners at the airport than the accident in japan after last tsunami.
19:27<@Bjarni>yeah, but still a major issue
19:27<@Bjarni>DDR: http://jp.dk/jptv/nyheder/indland/article2218917.ece <-- I just found a video from your place :p
19:27<DDR>'less than chernobyl'... that's like comparing a very small puncture in a garden hose to firehydrant a car just ran into.
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>they meanwhile say some regions are even more radiated than after tschernobyl
19:28<@Bjarni>'less than chernobyl' <-- sounds like "ferry sunk, 500 people drowned..... so what, it's less than Titanic"
19:28<sortkrudt>assumption of private wanting evil is utterly self-contradictinary
19:28<Elukka>fukushima is peanuts compared to the tsunami disaster at large
19:29<Elukka>people only focus on it instead of the tsunami itself because it sounds more spectacular
19:29<@Bjarni>not really
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: we have seen how a bunch of egoists can bring entire countries and the world economy to its knees
19:29<Elukka>it was a significant disaster, but it was far from the worst that japan experienced that day
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: how's that a glorious chapter of capitalism?
19:29<@Bjarni>the tsunami disaster can be fixed. Leaking radiation isn't something fixable
19:29<DDR>Bjarni: More like '5 people drowned'...
19:29<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause. yea. especially those who think they are not egoists. ehhe. every humanbeing is egoists. they need to lvie their life. they do it anyway
19:30<DDR>Bjarni: Of course it is. You stop radiation leaking like you stop any other leak... it's just harder to get to. ;)
19:30<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause, economy died cause of regulation, not the lack of. you should look into austrian economics, nor keynaism
19:30<DDR>3-Mile Island leaked, and it stopped soon enough.
19:30<sortkrudt>not keynism.*
19:31<@Bjarni>DDR: if it's that easy to stop, then why is there still a leak? Also what about all the radiation, which has already leaked into the sea and farmland?
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: please give me some of the stuff you smoked
19:31<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause. gief arguments plx.
19:31<DDR>It's not _easy_ at all. It's just not impossible.
19:31<sortkrudt>I know for a fact that system of printing press and that our govt is our God will fail.
19:31<@Bjarni>people are still evacuated and it looks like more people should have been evacuated, but it's unrealistic to evacuate millions of people
19:31<+glx>Bjarni: the problem is not stopping it, it's accessing the building
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: the economy collapsed because there was an "imaginary" economy that didn't have corrective measures (like taxes on transactions)
19:32<@Bjarni>I see those two issues as one issue
19:32<sortkrudt>Gold have rissen 1500% since 90s. its for a reason: its not politically controlled. it reflects the market beautifully
19:32<DDR>That's leaked. It's not continuing to leak... it might leech, and disperse, but I don't think enough has actually leaked out of the power plant to be lethal. Probably cancerous in the long run...
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: that means it builds up until it collapses. sooner rather than later nowadays.
19:32*DDR shrugs.
19:32<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause. bs. its the taxes and bailout that destroys the economy
19:32<Elukka>okay, random people i asked suggest the original version with less random detail looks better
19:33<sortkrudt>(that is, govt. interfering with the free market)
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: the bailouts were _after_ it already collapsed
19:33<+glx>remember 1929
19:33<sortkrudt>sure. but govt. _strongly encourraged_ people to lend people to those who cant pay back. free market would never ever let that happend.
19:33*Bjarni notes DDR supports nuclear power, even when the evidence is against it
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>the "free market" does simply not work. there is no "natural balance"
19:33<sortkrudt>it was politically descission.
19:33<DDR>Mostly, too, the chernobyl plant actually *blew up*. It didn't leak so much as vaporize. Now, in Japan, nothing has blown up. You can drink different water, but you can't breathe different air. :P
19:34<@Bjarni>if it were harmless, would exports from Japan stop?
19:34<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause. yes it is. dont you balance your self with your friend? you need a comitee to live with others?
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>DDR: the fukushima plant is still leaking radiation. lots of.
19:34<DDR>Bjarni: Well, how many people die from coal-fired power plants and their smog?
19:34<Elukka>yeah, funny thing
19:34<Elukka>coal kills many many more people than nuclear, chernobyl included
19:34<@Bjarni>exported food and goods have been found to be radioactive in excess of limits and have been stopped when entering other countries
19:34<sortkrudt>anyway. humans law suck ass. just ignore them. its more about moral, which we are not tought in schools anymore.
19:35<Swissfan91>I've drawn my FIRST SPRITE EVERYONE! :)
19:35<Elukka>okay can we all talk about sprites and not nuclear for a while :P
19:35<@Bjarni>Swissfan91: I did that ages ago. I have yet to make one, which is good enough to include in the game though :p
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: kitchens kill most people
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: ban kitchens!
19:36<@Bjarni>coal power kills far less people than cars
19:36<DDR>Besides, how else do we *get* power? We've only got so much coal and oil, our rivers are already dammed, and burning our forests seems unpalatable. Sure, there are various 'green' options like solar panels, but they're kind of beans compared to a large nuclear power plant.
19:36<DDR>Bjarni: For a good working example, look at France. How many times have their nuclear power plants been in the news?
19:37<Eddi|zuHause>DDR: currently, mankind uses like 2.5 times the energy that earth can regenerate
19:37<@Bjarni>if we use only one power source, then we would actually last longer on coal than nuclear power
19:37<+glx>a lot after fukushima DDR :)
19:37<DDR>Yeah. We're kind of fucked in that regard. :/
19:37<@Bjarni>we have coal for 400+ years with the current demands
19:37<sortkrudt>and prolly oil 100 years ++
19:37<Swissfan91>thanks for the vote of confidence Bjarni :P
19:37<DDR>glx: Heh, OK, you've got a point. I guess I meant, 'in the news because of a malfunction'.
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: depending on who you ask, "oil peak" already happened or is in the next ~5-10 years
19:38<Elukka>we have coal for 400 years, but is the earth going to tolerate burning all that
19:38<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause, its alot of oil left. you just need to work to get it out.
19:38<DDR>sortkrudt: Yes, but we'll work harder and get less.
19:38<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1s_hld3JEQ
19:38<@Bjarni>Swissfan91: for the record: I didn't see your sprite. It could be fine. However there is no law that all sprites are good sprites ;)
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: like in canada, where "oil sands" require more energy than you get out of? that makes sense.
19:39<DDR>Nah, oil sands is a _massive_ net gain.
19:39<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause, yes, and the free market will solve it. if it wouldnt be metal we would have cars made out of wood.
19:39<sortkrudt>free market solves everything :)
19:39<DDR>Truly epic, much to the loss of some rather pretty forests above it. :/
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: "oil peak" is the point where the global production of oil cannot be increased anymore
19:39<sortkrudt>what free market doesnt solve, its not worth doing.
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: it doesn't mean the oil has "run out"
19:40<@Bjarni><Elukka> we have coal for 400 years, but is the earth going to tolerate burning all that <--- if you talk about CO2, then yes. We can reduce CO2 emissions and then a volcano burps and we gained nothing
19:40<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause, okey. but then they go for some other stuff. we have just barely started our explotation of the globe.
19:40<Elukka>that's not true
19:40<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: but it means that when demand rises, and production doesn't rise as well, the price is going to skyrocket
19:40<@Bjarni>I think the known oil reserves will last 42 years.... assuming current usage
19:40<sortkrudt>yes it is. science is not even close to finish its explotation.
19:40<sortkrudt>sure. they've said this for 100 years.
19:40<sortkrudt>they find oil field close to everyday
19:40<@Bjarni>we have natural gas for 130 years or something though
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: look at the oil crisis in the 1970's
19:41<sortkrudt>so what?
19:41<Elukka>volcanoes generate... going from memory here, but i can find sources... about 200 million tonnes of co2 a year, while humans generate over 30 000 million tonnes
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: nobody believed that the US oil runs out
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>and then it suddenly did
19:41<Eddi|zuHause>prices skyrocketed
19:41<sortkrudt>so?
19:41<Elukka>volcanoes are peanuts
19:41<sortkrudt>and?
19:41<DDR>_It will happen again._
19:41<sortkrudt>prices skyrocketing was OK. naturally
19:42<Elukka>when eyjafjallajökull erupted, co2 emissions dropped as european planes were grounded
19:42<sortkrudt>if you ahve ten people wanting ur stuff, instead of one man, its Ok to turn up the prize.
19:42<Elukka>as those planes alone make way more co2 than the volcano
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: but the "free market" was horribly unprepared for that event.
19:42<sortkrudt>we haven't had free market for ages. only parts of it.
19:42<sortkrudt>but the free market will surivive. allways has
19:42<sortkrudt>as long as u have humanbeings you have a free market.
19:42<sortkrudt>only illegal ofcourse. he he
19:42<@Bjarni>CO2 estimation in Eyjafjallajokull turned out to be way lowered than what was measured
19:43<sortkrudt>I love stuff which are not controlled. its so nice. I don't ask any govt. who I'm going to ahve babies with, nor do I ask them what I should do. Govt. cannot controll humanbenigs. no humans can do that. it has been tried.
19:43<sortkrudt>only massmurders think this way
19:43<@Bjarni>which in turn leads to the possibility of redesigning the entire model of estimating CO2 in volcanic activity
19:43<sortkrudt>maybe we should forbid volcanic activity? hehe
19:43<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: you're not even listening.
19:44<sortkrudt>yea I'm. its just that I heard this point of view so many times.
19:44<sortkrudt>govt. suck ass at everything.
19:44<@Bjarni><sortkrudt> maybe we should forbid volcanic activity? hehe <--- yeah.... let's fine Iceland. Clearly they let out much more CO2 per person than the rest of us
19:44<sortkrudt>if govt. doesnt why not have govt. controlling everything.
19:44<@Bjarni>(they are like 350k people)
19:44<sortkrudt>Bjarni. hehe. yea. :)
19:45<@Bjarni>or 380k
19:45<Eddi|zuHause>i'm having the feeling i am discussing about homeopathy, and all the counter-arguments i get are: "of course it doesn't work if you combine it with other medicine"
19:45<sortkrudt>the nice with ayn rand is that she describes reality how it is without politicians fuckin' it .
19:45<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause, capitalism doesnt work if you blend in sociialism.
19:45<Elukka>even if volcanoes emit more than we think... do you think they can emit two orders of magnitude more?
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>the nice thing with karl marx is that he describes reality how it is without economicians fuckin' it
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: socialism doesn't work if you blend in capitalism.
19:46<Elukka>i like my mixed economy i live in thank you very much
19:47<sortkrudt>Eddi|zuHause, true, but socialism doesnt work. we are all egoists. it will allways fail due this fact.
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: true, but capitalism doesn't work, we are all egoists, it will always fail due to this fact.
19:48<sortkrudt>thats the reason for capitalism works. it admits that we are all egoists.
19:48<@Bjarni>looks up Taal (a volcano in the Philippines). Earlier this year the volcano were measured to release 4,600 tonnes/day and it wasn't erupting
19:48<@Bjarni>of CO2, that is
19:48<+glx>for me the main problem is stock market
19:49<sortkrudt>main problem is regulations which kills the little man to do stuff. in us 70% of the market is 'non'stock-market'.
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>that's the reason socialism works, it balances the fact that we are all egoists
19:50<Elukka>that would be less than 2 million tonnes a year
19:50<@Bjarni>socialism doesn't work. People are egoists and when people lose the possibility to gain stuff personally from working, then people stop working
19:50<Elukka>if you had ten thousand volcanoes releasing that much, human emissions would still dwarf volcano emissions
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: have you looked at the chicago food exchange? they had to split their stocks between "i want to actually sell/buy food" and "i just want to gamble on stuff". and then the "gamble" section has 10 times more "value" than the "real" market
19:50<Elukka>that's how much we burn stuff
19:50<@Bjarni><Elukka> that would be less than 2 million tonnes a year <--- from a non-erupting volcano
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: how does that blend in with your 70% figure?
19:51<Elukka>it's a tiny amount even if every single volcano on earth that is not erupting releases that much
19:51<Eddi|zuHause>sortkrudt: looks more like 10% to me.
19:51<Elukka>then you add in the ones that do erupt and it's still a tiny amount
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20:00<@Bjarni>odd, nobody wants to write anything about CO2 from Eyjafjallajokull after it turned out the estimate were too low
20:00<Elukka>i can't find any source that would peg it as high enough that it'd be significant compared to human emissions
20:01<@Bjarni>btw how do we know human emissions? That's actually an estimate too
20:02<@Bjarni>and the effect of CO2 is also an estimate... not to mention how the plants reacts
20:02<@Bjarni>it's not proven or disproven that plants grow faster with more CO2 and hence use more CO2 from the air
20:03<@Bjarni>right now we have 388 ppm (at least that's the official number)
20:03<@Bjarni>plants are optimised for 1500 ppm
20:04-!-perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
20:04<@Bjarni>which is an indication that the current level isn't unusually high, but actually lower than what plants evolved to live in
20:05<@Bjarni>anyway goodnight
20:05<Eddi|zuHause>case BUILD_VEHICLE_WIDGET_SORT_ASSENDING_DESCENDING: <-- typo
20:05-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x573c4281.espnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
20:08<Elukka>well, he left, but
20:08<Elukka>the current level isn't unusually high, true, higher has occured through natural mechanisms
20:09<Elukka>just the earth was half desert and the rest tropical
20:09<Elukka>we probably don't want that
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>there is generally two ways natural systems work:
20:13<Eddi|zuHause>1) it slowly builds up, until the lowest demand cannot be filled, then it drops again until it can be, then it rises again
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20:14<Eddi|zuHause>2) it quickly builds up, until the lowest demand cannot be filled, but by then it has surpassed a point where it cannot drop again to get into the original state
20:14<pjpe>haaah
20:14<Elukka>well, the earth's biosphere has more than one stable state
20:14<pjpe>assending
20:14<pjpe>that's funny
20:14<pjpe>keep it like that
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>the "capitalistic" world generally falls into the 2nd category
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>it builds up until some catastrophic event happens
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20:17<Elukka>no no you see, if you had even less regulation magic capitalism fairies would put it all right
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>the fewer feedback mechanisms you have, the more likely case 2 happens
20:19<Elukka>i hate to repeat myself, but the channel was rather busy before, so i'd like to ask if there's something more i could do to my wagon to bring it up to CETS standards so i could move on to making another one
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20:20<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: i looked at that last picture you posted, but i haven't quite seen the difference
20:20<Elukka>hm
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20:22<Elukka>trying to be careful not to make it too messy, but i upped the contrast a bit
20:22<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/tweaks.png
20:23<Elukka>lower row is still entirely unmodified
20:24<Eddi|zuHause>the doors could be slightly darker
20:24<Elukka>the door area in general?
20:25<Elukka>hey it does look better that way
20:26<Eddi|zuHause>and the white sign jumps from being between two windows to directly below one window
20:26<Elukka>hmm
20:26<Elukka>yeah that's true gonna fix it
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>and the wheels look asymmetric
20:27<Elukka>good catch
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20:27<Eddi|zuHause>and i still think you should move the windows closer together (and add the missing window)
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20:28<Eddi|zuHause>could shorten the wagon by one pixel then
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>may make it more symmetric
20:29<Eddi|zuHause>the wagon templates are done in a way that they overlap by 1 pixel
20:29<Elukka>oh
20:30<Elukka>i can move the windows closer together on the sideview, but if i did on the diagonals they'd all be one big adjacent window
20:31<Elukka>since there's only one pixel between them
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: work with blending effects on the diagonal views
20:31<z-MaTRiX>hiiii
20:31<z-MaTRiX>everybody playin'?
20:31<Pinkbeast>Not I, right now.
20:31<Elukka>make a pixel that's in between the window color and the body color 'between' the windows?
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20:32<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: yeah, something like that
20:32<Swissfan91>I have returned!
20:32<Elukka>worth a try
20:32<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: especially the alignment of the windows looks really odd
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: instead of one straight line it looks like they go up and down in some views
20:33<Elukka>hmm
20:33<Elukka>the door window looks like it's upper than the rest since it's inset
20:33<Swissfan91>does anyone know what format sprites are prefered in ?
20:33<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: pixel art is much about hiding these oddities
20:33<Elukka>heh
20:33<Elukka>i try
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>Swissfan91: in general, a PNG with the DOS palette
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>Swissfan91: and the top of your roof seems wrong
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>Swissfan91: should probably moved 1 pixel up
20:42<Elukka>erm, i'm not seeing any links or anything from swissfan
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>you lack overview :p
20:42<Elukka>huh
20:43<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=44674&p=969086#p969086
20:44<Elukka>i see!
20:46<Elukka>okay, added the seventh window, through some subtle trickery on the diagonal view
20:48<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/tweaks-1.png
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>yes. clearly an improvement
20:51<Eddi|zuHause>now get these wheels symmetric :)
20:52<Elukka>were i to shorten the car by a pixel... in which direction should i do it?
20:52<Elukka>i don't see how it'd fit the template anymore
20:54<Eddi|zuHause>i'd keep the left door, and move everything else one pixel to the left
20:55<Elukka>in every sprite?
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, probably
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20:56<Elukka>and... some magic blue on top of the part of the template that's no longer covered, i suppose
20:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes
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21:04<Elukka>cursed middle wheel!
21:09<Eddi|zuHause>good night
21:09<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/tweaks.png
21:09<Elukka>just check that one last pic!
21:09<Elukka>eternal stream of tiny tweaks
21:09<Elukka>once there's no more to tweak i'll apply it to all the sprites and call the coach done
21:09<Elukka>erm
21:09<+glx>angle seems wrong
21:10<Elukka>that's not the right pic what the hell
21:10<Elukka>oh right photobucket does odd things if you delete and reupload under the same file name
21:11<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/tweaks-2.png
21:11<Elukka>there we go
21:12<Elukka>glx, what do you mean about the angle?
21:12<+glx>you made - and \ it seems
21:13<Elukka>there's more angles
21:13<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/umbauwagen-1.png
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21:13<Elukka>it's just i haven't tweaked the rest yet
21:13<+glx>oh
21:14<+glx>I'm used to - / | \
21:14<Elukka>CETS does some sort of magic
21:15<+glx>yeah callbacks
21:19<Elukka>magic!
21:19<Elukka>think i'm gonna continue this tomorrow
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