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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-08

---Logopened Thu Sep 08 00:00:36 2011
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01:52<Elukka>chris sawyer has amazingly rigid opinions about his games...
01:53<pjpe>he's still alive?
01:53<pjpe>somewhere?
01:53<Elukka>rollercoaster tycoon did not have a sandbox mode because it didn't fit his vision of the game, doesn't matter that people wanted it and it wouldn't have hurt the scenarios at all
01:53<Elukka>"unofficial patches", referring to ttdpatch and by extension i suppose to ottd, "really annoy him" because dammit his games are made right
01:54<Elukka>i'd be grateful if some people took upon greatly improving some project i had finished and abandoned a decade ago...
01:57<Elukka>you can see the same attitude with some big game devs these days
01:57<Elukka>"it's our game and you ignoramuses can't mod it or you'd ruin our bloody precious vision"
01:58<pjpe>who says that
01:59<Elukka>not an actual quote :P
02:00<Elukka>last time that pops to mind, relic had that attitude
02:00<Elukka>which is funny because they used to be nice to modders
02:01<pjpe>that doesn't sound very funny at all
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02:04<Elukka>funny in the "something smells funny" sense, not the amusing sense
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02:50<@Terkhen>good morning
02:56<@Terkhen>ooh, time for a testing game
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03:21<dihedral>greetings
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03:50<_1009>Morning :)
03:51<lugo>hello
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03:53<Elukka>morning
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04:37<@planetmaker>moin
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05:13<MNIM>Chris Sawyer shouldn't be complaining.
05:14<MNIM>it's projects like TTDP and OTTD that still keep the gam alive in the first place
05:14<MNIM>or games like UT2004.
05:14<MNIM>the only reason anybody plays it anymore is because of all the mods.
05:15<MNIM>most online servers I see hardly ever play standard maps
05:15<pjpe>hell i'm surprised people even play ted patch anymore
05:15<MNIM>well
05:15<MNIM>TTDP Does have several features that are sadly lacking in OTTD
05:16<Rubidium>... and vice versa
05:16<pjpe>building over tunnel entrance and custom bridgehead?
05:16<MNIM>that
05:16<MNIM>and things like programmable signals
05:17<pjpe>think there was a patch for custom bridgehead
05:17<pjpe>there was a patch for programmable signals
05:17<pjpe>doesn't seem very useful though
05:17<MNIM>exactly. they're hardly trunk
05:17<pjpe>well they don't really have to be
05:17<pjpe>you can patch it or you can use the patchpack
05:17<pjpe>they're still there
05:17<@planetmaker>openttdpatch :-)
05:18<pjpe>i don't think anyone even works on ttdpatch anymore
05:18<@planetmaker>oh, there has been a commit in the last quarter ;-)
05:18<pjpe>yeah several months ago
05:19<@planetmaker>22 August
05:19<@planetmaker>and then 15 January
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05:20<MNIM>well, true, but a lot of people don't touch the patches for fear of breaking shit or not knowing what they're doing
05:20<MNIM>(like me)
05:20<MNIM>patching could be more user-friendly IMNSHO
05:20<@planetmaker>it couldn't
05:21<MNIM>well, lemme rephrase that
05:21<MNIM>should.
05:21<@planetmaker>it shouldn't ;-)
05:21<@planetmaker>or rather I should also have more money and reign the world
05:21<@planetmaker>same quality of wish ;-)
05:21<MNIM>well, I get you're afraid of the "OMG-i-patched-it-and-now-it-doesn't-work" people, but still
05:22<_1009>Is there any sample code where a NWidget button is removed or added on the fly?
05:23<@planetmaker>_1009: you need to use planes
05:23<@planetmaker>where you can show different window layouts as function of variable
05:23<@planetmaker>like the NewGame window which is different from main menu or in SE
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05:24<_1009>Hm, I'm trying to reconfigure the AI Debug Window, to add an additional button "Stop AI" when Stop AI Cheat is active. Are planes possible there too?
05:25<@planetmaker>they're possible in every window
05:25<_1009>Okay, cheers.
05:25<@planetmaker>I forgot the widget name which adds them
05:25<@planetmaker>as said, look at the NewGame window
05:25<@planetmaker>which sets map size etc
05:25<_1009>Thanks :)
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05:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22904 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: add tar filename to file scanning
05:55<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22905 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#4753] (r22836): the name of the tar was removed from the AI filenames, so record it differently. Also removes some of the hackery to get the tar's filename
06:02<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22906 /trunk/src/script/script_scanner.cpp: -Fix (r22905): variable not properly cleared before use
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06:04<@peter1138>i wanna take you to a
06:04<@peter1138>GAY BAR GAY BAR
06:07<@Terkhen>that's one of the first stupid internet videos that I remember :P
06:08<@peter1138>?
06:08<@Terkhen>I know that it is a real song, but I only know it from the video :P
06:09<@Terkhen>http://www.rathergood.com/gaybar
06:09<MNIM>hehehe
06:09<MNIM>gotta love electric six, eh?
06:09<MNIM>also, you missed something.
06:09<MNIM>it's "YOU! I wanna take you..."
06:09<@peter1138>ah
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06:23<appe>rubbish.
06:25<appe>what's the fastest plane grf?
06:25<valhallasw>Terkhen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2kD1YUtA5o
06:33<Elukka>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2a4gyJsY0mc
06:34<Elukka>oh electric six
06:34<Elukka>one of the most bizarre music videos
06:34<Elukka>i ponder, did he put lamps in his pants or is it CGI
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06:55<Eddi|zuHause>appe: fastest to compile, fastest to run, or fastest to crash?
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>(no idea actually, i don't usually use planes)
06:57<appe>hehe
06:57<appe>fastest run, that is.
07:01<Elukka>i suppose there's no way to draw partially opaque pixels?
07:01<Elukka>since only magic blue is alpha
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07:19<Swissfan91>afternoon everyone
07:27<@Terkhen>hi Swissfan91
07:28<@Yexo>Elukka: it's possible if you use 32bpp sprites
07:28<@Yexo>you'll always need 8bpp sprites for people that don't use a 32bpp blitter though
07:29<Elukka>heh
07:29<Elukka>the effort of making an entire train set in 32bpp spritse seems colossal
07:29<@Yexo>why would it be a bigger effort than making 8bpp sprites?
07:30<Elukka>more detail!
07:30<@Yexo>32bpp is not "more zoom levels"
07:30<Elukka>hm true
07:30<@Yexo>it just gives you more colors to chose from
07:30<Elukka>the sprites i've seen are a lot more detailed than 8 bit sprites though
07:30<Elukka>hey, in what way am i limited with colors anyway?
07:30<Elukka>do i need to use a special palette?
07:31<Elukka>with 8 bpp sprites
07:31<@Yexo>you're limited to the colors from the TTD palette
07:31<@Yexo>so yes, you do need to use a special palette
07:31<Elukka>how do i know what those are?
07:31<@Yexo>there are several drawing tutorials and links to the correct palette
07:31<@Yexo>see http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates#Palettes
07:32<Elukka>i suppose i need to convert my sprite to the proper colors, then...
07:34<Elukka>at least i'm assuming CETS uses the 8bit palette
07:34<@Yexo>yes, every grf has to use it
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07:35<Elukka>ah, i can make photoshop automatically convert it to the proper palette
07:36<@Yexo>if you do that, take care of action colors / company colors
07:36<Elukka>i think what i'm going to do is make a palette in photoshop of the usable DOS (that's alright, right?) colors
07:36<__ln__>http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2466
07:37<@Yexo>Elukka: they might already exist on the #openttdcoop devzone, but I'm not sure where
07:37<@planetmaker>Elukka: or you could take the existing photoshop palette
07:37<Elukka>there's an existing photoshop palette that's the same as the ttd palette?
07:38<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/1
07:38<Elukka>oh, nice
07:39<@Yexo>Swissfan91: ^^ that link is also interesting for you
07:39<@Yexo>it documents how to convert your graphics
07:39<@Terkhen>if possible use the dos palette
07:39<@Terkhen>it has more colours and OpenTTD does not care about which one you use :)
07:39<Elukka>i believe in photoshop you can simply download the palette, convert the image to indexed color and select the palette
07:40<@Yexo>the only reason to use the win palette would be if your sprites are for an existing project coded in nfo (not nml) and it already uses the windows palette
07:40<Elukka>i presume CETS isn't
07:40<@Yexo>cets is coded in nml, thus doesn't care :)
07:40<@Yexo>hence the advise for DOS, as it has more colors
07:41<Elukka>alright
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07:47<Swissfan91>does it matter if I'm using Paint.net as opposed to Paintshop Pro or GIMP
07:48<@planetmaker>the result matters
07:48<@planetmaker>not the tools
07:49<Swissfan91>I see. So I just download the palette, and take colours from it. And can I use everything other than the pure white colour?
07:50<@planetmaker>that doesn't cut it
07:50<@planetmaker>a palette is an image property
07:50<@planetmaker>it's an indexed image. It must not be rgb
07:51<Swissfan91>So I need to do the thing in the IMPORTANT box on your link, PM?
07:52<@planetmaker>I don't know paint.net and thus don't know what you need to do to work with paletted images there
07:52<@planetmaker>you should know your tools, that's all :-)
07:53<@Terkhen>you should have some way of associating that palette to your sprite image
07:54<Swissfan91>I have literally downloaded paint.net a few days ago to begin drawing, so I feel useless here,
07:55<Elukka>so uhm
07:55<Elukka>since i'm not using company colors, will i have to remove those from the palette?
07:55<@planetmaker>no
07:56<@planetmaker>just don't use them during drawing
07:56<Elukka>hmm right
07:56<Elukka>well i hope it doesn't coincidentally convert some pixels in this sprite to company colors :D
07:56<@Yexo>Elukka: that's what the extra conversion steps are for: RGB -> TTDWinSafe -> RGB -> TTDWinFull
07:57<@Yexo>replace "win" with "dos"
07:57<@Yexo>but the same advise applies
07:57<Elukka>ah, right
07:57<Swissfan91>paint.net allows you to open a palette > http://www.getpaint.net/doc/latest/WorkingWithPalettes.html
07:57<Elukka>there isn't a dos safe palette there thoguh
07:58<@Yexo>hmm, someone should create that one :p
08:02<Elukka>guhh converting to the palette messes everything up
08:02<Elukka>i dunno why it thinks it should move certain pixel rows upwards by 1 px
08:02<Elukka>oh i guess that's just coincidence
08:02<Elukka>nvm
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08:05<Elukka>ah, that was dithering..
08:08<Elukka>okay, now it should be ready for ttd :)
08:10<Elukka>erm, can i replace an attached image in the devzone somehow?
08:11<@Yexo>you can just attach the new version too?
08:12<Elukka>i suppose
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08:17<Elukka>hm. inconvenient that indexed images can't have layers
08:17<Elukka>oh well, next time i'll know to use the right colors from the start
08:18<@Yexo>I'm quite sure in gimp you can have layers with indexed images
08:18<@Terkhen>yes, gimp can
08:19<@Terkhen>for ogfx-rv I have layers for each cargo sprite and everything is indexed
08:20<@planetmaker>Elukka: we even have a script which automatically exports a set of chosen layers to png files ;-)
08:21<Elukka>huh... gimp can, but photoshop can't?
08:21<@planetmaker>also works with photoshop files
08:21<@planetmaker>as gimp can read those ;-)
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08:24<Elukka>i knew photoshop is bloated and inconvenient, but i didn't think it'd be behind on features :P
08:24<@planetmaker>it isn't
08:25<Elukka>well it insists of flattening all layers when converting to indexed
08:26<@planetmaker>sounds like "sucks" ;-)
08:26<Elukka>pretty much
08:26<@Yexo>can you add layers again after converting?
08:26<Elukka>nope
08:27<Elukka>wait it converted the image from psd to png no wonder
08:27<Elukka>well still can't
08:27<Elukka>what should work is i draw it as rgb using the palette colors, then convert it to indexed when done
08:27<Elukka>shouldn't make any difference
08:31<Elukka>hm. i think the longer coaches would look better on the more realistic scale, but since all the existing sprites are slightly smaller i guess i'll do that
08:32<Elukka>not a huge difference either way
08:32<Elukka>coincidentally it ends up märklin scale :P
08:34<Elukka>do you guys have preference on which scale they should follow?
08:35<Elukka>real size in meters divided by 24*12 or 24*16 is what i've heard in context of CETS
08:35<Elukka>both fit the templates fairly well
08:45<@planetmaker>Elukka: it's better to draw in the paletted image (I think)
08:45<@planetmaker>But some people indeed do it differently or even render stuff - and then convert and adjust pixels afterwards
08:45<@planetmaker>it's a matter of which work flow you prefer
08:46<Elukka>heh
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08:46<Elukka>"The colours in the "company" range are often (but not always) changed to the current player colours. In some instances, they may be changed to colours specified by the .grf file, or random colours, or not changed at all."
08:46<Elukka>if CETS doesn't use company colors, that would be rather useful (or is it already done)
08:47<@planetmaker>assume them to be CC
08:47<Elukka>okay
08:47<Elukka>do things break if i use a palette that simply omits them?
08:48<Elukka>difficult to identify at a glance which is a company color and which is not
08:51<@Yexo>your final png file needs to have the exact palette
08:51<@Yexo>you can convert first to a palette without those colors and than convert again (via RGB) to a palette that has them
08:53<@planetmaker>Elukka: use ttdviewer, it's nice for that
08:53<@planetmaker>and the palette is always identical in the colour positions.
08:54<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates#Palettes
08:54<@Yexo>if you really want to use the company colors without any change you can, it requires some support code but it's pretty easy
08:54<@planetmaker>yup. But... I'd not recommend that in this set's case
08:54<@planetmaker>makes for unnecessary complications. And blue can be drawn without
08:54<@Yexo>nope, I don't either
08:56<Elukka>can i assume that if it looks alright in ttdviewer it'll look alright in game?
08:57<Elukka>luckily don't seem to have accidentally used company colors since the company recolor does nothing in the viewer
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10:09<@Belugas>hi hi
10:09<Swissfan91>hi Belugas
10:11<@Belugas>hello sir :)
10:11<Swissfan91>do you, or anyone else on here, use paint.net?
10:12<@Belugas>not me, sorry
10:12<@Belugas>i use Paint Shop Pro and Photoshop
10:13<Swissfan91>darn ):
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10:14<Swissfan91>do palettes, such as the TTD one, come as a palette file? or just a png?
10:14<Rubidium>I use brushes and rollers
10:16*Terkhen uses gimp
10:17<Swissfan91>other palettes online seem to come as .txt files, but the TTD one is .act ?
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10:19<@Terkhen>Swissfan91: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/documents/1
10:21<Swissfan91>thanks Terkhen, but there is a lot of jargon there :P
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10:36<Eddi|zuHause>Swissfan91: the easiest way to get a valid palette is to generate a png with grfcodec (by decompiling a grf)
10:37<@planetmaker>or just download a paletted grf
10:37<@planetmaker>png file
10:41<Swissfan91>you mean, when someone posts a sprite and they attach the palette.. download that and open it in paint.net?
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>Swissfan91: can also use a screenshot
10:43<Swissfan91>a screenshot of?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>a screenshot made by pressing ctrl+s in openttd
10:44<Swissfan91>oh, you mean taking a shot of a town, and using colours from the buildings?
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>no, the png has the full palette built into it
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>what's in the picture is irrelevant
10:46<Swissfan91>sorry, I'm not following. (brain is scambled after looking at pixels for too long!).
10:51<@planetmaker>Swissfan91: a palette is part of an image. It's not something extra
10:51<@planetmaker>or can be part
10:51<@planetmaker>it is part of all openttd screenshots
10:52<Swissfan91>ah. I was thinking a palette was just that box of coloured pixels
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11:08<Swissfan91>can I download and use the palettes posted here > http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=905934#p905934
11:09<@planetmaker>they won't magically convert your image into a paletted image, though
11:09<@planetmaker>they are correct, though
11:10<@planetmaker>iirc
11:10<@planetmaker>but the first place to look should be the newgrf-specs wiki ;-)
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11:11<Swissfan91>this? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page
11:11<Swissfan91>sorry, this http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates#Palettes
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11:16<Swissfan91>OK, I have downloaded GIMP. Would it be easier for someone to talk me through it now? :)
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12:27<Coke>Hi guys! Is this the latest, correct algorithm for cargo income? http://wiki.openttd.org/Cargo_income#Overview
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12:29<Coke>I checked GetTransportedGoodsIncome in economy.cpp, it seems to support it.
12:29<Coke>However, I'm getting way too low numbers when trying to implement this math function elsewhere.
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12:47<LordAro>afternoonings
12:49<@planetmaker>hi LordAro
12:49<LordAro>hi planetmaker
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12:59<Swissfan91>afternoone LordAro
12:59<LordAro>hi Swissfan91
13:09<Swissfan91>how are things?
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13:15<LordAro>Swissfan91: ok i guess
13:15<LordAro>:)
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22907 /trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
13:54<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22908 /trunk/src/tree_gui.cpp: -Codechange: silence MSVC warning
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14:36<__ln__>http://www.gp.se/nyheter/goteborg/1.718310-27-skadade-till-sjukhus
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>looks serious
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14:41<Markk>__ln__: Wow, sheisse.
14:41<Wolf01>hello
14:42<Markk>The trams should have (magnetic) track brake.
14:43<__ln__>btw, ludde is said to be living in Göteborg
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14:56<LordAro>Zuu: did you ever post a screenie? can't find anything in the logs
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15:00<Zuu>LordAro: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=969297#p969297
15:00<Zuu>As you had quit, I found no point of linking it to you
15:01<LordAro>true :)
15:01<LordAro>looks good, well done! :)
15:02<Zuu>I'm amazed that all.patch is about 2000 lines long.
15:02-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
15:03<Zuu>(though it includes some 200 lines of project file changes that shouldn't be there)
15:04<Zuu>Hmm, I must have been tired yesterday. It is not 2k but 1k-ish lines :-D
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15:44<frosch123>oops, the printing works in gone
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15:45<frosch123>luckily there is a second one nearby
15:46<@Terkhen>maybe there is a newgrf that prevents that :P
15:47<frosch123>:p
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15:56<frosch123>hmm, i cannot refit trams to half wheat, half livestock
15:57<frosch123>livestock tram \o/
15:57<__ln__>obviously the livestock would eat the wheat if they are on the same tram
15:59<frosch123>well, they both go to the same food processing plant
15:59<frosch123>so it would make no difference
16:00<@Terkhen>that's why andy wants to do rv-wagons :P
16:01<frosch123>well, i build two tramstops parallel to each other
16:01<frosch123>livestock can walk a tile
16:01<@Terkhen>:P
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16:06<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22909 /trunk/os/windows/installer/ (install.nsi version_win32.txt version_win9x.txt): -Fix-ish [FS#4749]: let Windows 2000 and XP without service pack 3 use the win9x binary/installer; the newer MSVC compiler of the compile farm does not support those versions of Windows anymore
16:06<LordAro>:(
16:07<LordAro>to be expected, i guess
16:07<TrueBrain>not :(. It is progress.
16:08<LordAro>true
16:09<valhallasw>LordAro: the people who run XP without SP3 deserve the :( ;-)
16:10<LordAro>i guess :)
16:10<LordAro>just that i still have several win2k PCs at home :)
16:13<Rubidium>well, don't use unicode... or compile it yourself with an older version of MSVC
16:13<@Terkhen>or update :P
16:13<pjpe>^^ this is the best optoon
16:14<andythenorth>I want to do rv-wagons?
16:14<andythenorth>nah
16:14<andythenorth>I want *someone else* to do rv-wagons :P
16:14<Rubidium>pjpe: updating Windows? That's a disaster waiting to happen, or do you mean reinstalling a newer version?
16:15<@Terkhen>heh, anyone has actually tried to do that?
16:15<pjpe>not using windows 2000 entirely
16:15<Rubidium>or at least used to be back in the days I used Windows, which is around 2000 and early XP
16:15<@Terkhen>with updating I mean reinstall a new version
16:15<LordAro>pjpe: i agree, but not my choice
16:15<@Terkhen>windows 7 offers the same possibility with vista too
16:17<pjpe>i don't think microsoft even supports win2k anymore
16:17<pjpe>that's about the point where you know it's wrong
16:17<+glx>it's still indicated in msdn
16:18<@Terkhen>I remember some relatively recent news about extending support for XP, I didn't think that 2000 was still supported at all
16:19<@planetmaker>it's not supported anymore
16:20<Rubidium>2000's extended support was till mid 2010
16:21<@planetmaker>http://support.microsoft.com/lifecycle/?p1=3071
16:21<Rubidium>XP till 2014 or 2016 (Embedded)
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16:23<Rubidium>although only SP3 of XP is supported as of now
16:23<@planetmaker>which is fair enough
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16:26<LordAro>indeed
16:28<Rubidium>us "supporting" basically the earliest windows 95s is really insane, but it makes those decisions of 'dropping' some support for ancient platforms much easier
16:29<frosch123>andythenorth: did you play the corsica heightmap?
16:29<andythenorth>no
16:29<LordAro>meh, should support windows 3.1 :D
16:29<andythenorth>I should
16:29<andythenorth>I like Corsica :)
16:29<andythenorth>my honeymoon was in Corsica
16:29<frosch123>you should not have any problems finding long rivers
16:29<andythenorth>there is no french narrow gauge set :P
16:30<andythenorth>so corsica is no-go
16:30<andythenorth>and the rivers in corsica are *not* navigable :P
16:32<Rubidium>LordAro: the dos version might work, although might very well not. Maybe it works if you compile the DOS version with an allegro that supports windows 3 (or lower)
16:32<LordAro>:)
16:33<andythenorth>frosch123: you are right about the rives though :)
16:33<andythenorth>those are *very* long river systems
16:33<andythenorth>complete networks
16:33<andythenorth>why can't terragen do that? :(
16:35<andythenorth>it's pretty awesome
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16:35<andythenorth>but the map is way too flat :P
16:35<andythenorth>basically cheating to use a map that flat
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16:40<Eddi|zuHause>perlin is not the best way to generate good landscapes
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>but... nobody implemented anything more useful
16:47<@Terkhen>scripted map generators
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16:50-!-planetmaker is "Ingo von Borstel" on @#openttd #openttd.cf @+#openttdcoop.stable @+#openttdcoop.dev +#openDune #openttdcoop.devzone @+#openttdcoop @+#wwottdgd
16:51<Wolf01>'night
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16:52<andythenorth>landscapes aren't just noise? They have signal? :o
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17:01<@Belugas>signal... noise... PG somewhere in my mind
17:01<@Belugas>yeah :D
17:01<@Belugas>Signal to Noise!
17:01<@Belugas>i knew it!
17:02<andythenorth>PG?
17:02<@Belugas>Peter Gabriel :)
17:03<andythenorth>he
17:03<andythenorth>Peter Gabriel recent stuff is a bit...harsh
17:04<andythenorth>he lives near me somewhere
17:04<andythenorth>my friend made the Sledgehammer video :)
17:04*andythenorth name drops :P
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>i really hope he's not related to Sigmar Gabriel ;)
17:06<frosch123>sg is the arch enemy of my home town :p
17:06<@Belugas>if ever you see him passing by, tell him he has some fans in Quebec!
17:06<@Belugas>PG, not SG....
17:06<@Belugas>see ya
17:06<andythenorth>he
17:07<andythenorth>Belugas: do you remember Portishead?
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17:09<andythenorth>nvm
17:09<andythenorth>bed time
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17:14<Eddi|zuHause>hm... it's not funny anymore what passes "terrorism" nowadays... they arrested two people who might have vague connections and maybe ordered suspicious substances that could possibly be used for a bomb, but had no actual preparations or plans... they do anything for a little "we need more security laws" psyop short before an election...
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17:16<hanf>Eddi|zuHause: assuming you're german, I read some stuff in die Zeit a while back about people wanting access to phone records etc. for that reason
17:16<hanf>all seems a bit over the top
17:17<Eddi|zuHause>hanf: it's more complicated than that
17:18<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but it sells better than "two people arrested who ordered chemicals without permission"
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>at first they couldn't realistically argue for phone record storage, then they went through the EU to pass a guideline, then they got that through the parliament, then the constitutional court declared it void, then they couldn't get it through parliament again
17:19<@planetmaker>and now companies store it nevertheless
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: which is highly illegal, actually
17:19<hanf>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, it always is. I don't really follow german news much, mostly finance and british news. perhaps I should!
17:19<hanf>when do you hold elections?
17:20<@planetmaker>sure it's illegal
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>hanf: regional elections in berlin next weekend
17:20<@planetmaker>it's violating my fundamental rights on grounds of the constitution
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: by much older court decisions, companies are only allowed to store things immediately needed for billing purposes
17:21<@planetmaker>yes
17:21<@planetmaker>I know
17:21<@planetmaker>for that exact reason, though
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>which is not at all for flatrates, and something 80-days-ish for connection-based billing
17:26<@planetmaker>but one should not wonder when the secretary of state and the boss of the federal police again and again request to change or make laws to that end - well knowing that they'll be both unconstitutional as well as without measurable effect on the number of resolved crimes
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17:28<Eddi|zuHause>there's only one person in the entire republic which has enough influence to stop this rubbish... and we don't know how much longer she can hold out...
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17:29<Eddi|zuHause>it's the thing i fear most should the government happen to break up in the near future...
17:30<@planetmaker>hm you think that Merkel actively averts that?
17:30<@planetmaker>or whom do you talk of?
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>i meant leuthäuser-schnarrenberger
17:32<@planetmaker>ah. Yes, that's right.
17:32<@planetmaker>Her attitude wrt civil rights indeed warrants respect in that environment
17:33<@planetmaker>if her party were more about civil rights than economic-libertarian, it might even have a chance to survive elections to come
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>i honestly don't see that happening...
17:35<@planetmaker>nor do I
17:35<@planetmaker>sadly
17:35<@planetmaker>the pirate party might superseed that
17:35<@planetmaker>though I'm not convinced there entirely either.
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>they have a different problem: they aren't in any notable parliament yet
17:35<LordAro>night all
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17:36<@planetmaker>the difference between yet and anymore ;-)
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17:36<Eddi|zuHause>the FDP rescued one recent election by a narrow margin
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>"they are not entirely dead yet" :p
17:37<@planetmaker>:-)
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>maybe one of these days someone realizes that the "Bündnis 90" part of the green party actually had something to do with civil rights once upon a time
17:39<@planetmaker>would suit well
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17:47<frosch123>night
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18:13*Zuu feels like an evil devil that reminds people about the rights of AIs :-)
18:14<@planetmaker>civil rAIghts movement?
18:15<Zuu>Yep :-p
18:15<Zuu>AI rAIghts movement
18:16<Zuu>Or just ARM = AI Rights Movement :-)
18:16<@Terkhen>are they complaining because they can't just build stupid stuff anymore?
18:16<@Terkhen>now they have to work :P
18:17<Zuu>Well, I can frosee someone complaining that they make something silly if there eg. appear cargo airports that to the AI looks exactly the same as PAX airports.
18:17<@Terkhen>oh, people complaining
18:18<@Terkhen>that is not exactly complicated to foresee :P
18:18<@planetmaker>lool :-)
18:20<Zuu>Though, I have to say that from what I've seen the current AI API works better with current NewGRF airports than I first though when digging into it.
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18:20<Zuu>AIs will simply just use the first view/layout no matter which rotation that happen to be.
18:21<@Yexo>luckily with opengfx+airport that is the default rotation
18:21<Zuu>Eg. if a NewGRF disables the DIR_N rotation, another will be at index 0 and be available to the AI.
18:22<Zuu>Though, the current height/width functions could be made rotation aware to handle if index 0 is DIR_W or DIR_E and I think it should not be too bad actually.
18:22<@Yexo>I think that is a nice task for the compatibility layer
18:23<@planetmaker>:-)
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18:23<Zuu>Yep, though the copatibility layer will just pass index zero to the new function :-)
18:23<@Yexo>it doesn't have to do that
18:24<Zuu>But, it can't know which rotation index zero is as there is no API to check that.
18:24<@Yexo>it could do something fancy like listing all views, pick the first with rotation DIR_N (or maybe also DIR_S) and pass that view
18:24<@Yexo>it could check the width/height of each rotation
18:24<Zuu>DIR_* is not exposed to the AI.
18:24<@Yexo>and compare that to hardcoded list of sizes of the default airports
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18:27<Zuu>Aren't NewGRFs currently allowed to create new tile layouts that are different sized than default airports?
18:27<@Yexo>yes, they are
18:27<@Yexo>but for all but DIR_N and DIR_E I think that'll break the rotation
18:28<Zuu>DIR_E is 90 degree clockwise?
18:29<@Yexo>yes
18:29<@Yexo>hmm, or maybe it won't
18:32<Zuu>An AI (and thus compat layer) can't know if a given airport index is a default airport or not.
18:32<Zuu>Fixing that airport eg. 40 is a buildable small airport is sure doable.
18:33<@Yexo>Zuu: default airports will keep the same IDs for the compat layer
18:33<@Yexo>AIs using the compat layer are AIs designed for OpenTTD <= 1.1, so not using AIAirportList etc.
18:33<Zuu>But for compatibility layer reasons I'm unsure if we can make the <= 9 airports non-buildable when they are overriden. Though, I now remember that we had already decided to in that case just screw old AIs :-)
18:34<@Yexo>hmm, that bug in openttd is still open
18:34<@Yexo>need to fix that soon ;)
18:35<Zuu>Thus if the default Ids are marked non-buildable when they are overriden and those > max NewGRF id are also non-buildable, a compat layer can know if a given Id is a default airport or not.
18:35<Zuu>And then your idea rearding checking sizes can apply. However, in that case you also know that DIR_N is available. :-)
18:36<Zuu>.. and is index 0
18:36<Zuu>so nothing is gained :-p
18:37<Zuu>(compared to always using index 0)
18:39<Zuu>That said, making default ids non-buildable when overriden + fixing that bug is probably both good things to do.
18:40<@Yexo>yep
18:40<@Yexo>but not for now :)
18:40<@Yexo>good night all
18:40<Zuu>Indeed, night Yexo
18:42<@Terkhen>good night Yexo
18:42<@planetmaker>good night ye
18:42<@planetmaker>xo
18:42<@planetmaker>hm.
18:42<@planetmaker>broken ;-)
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19:00<Zuu>good night
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19:03<@Terkhen>good night
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19:04<Pikka>mentlegen
19:04<Pikka>is it me or are the forums exceptionally slow the last couple of days?
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19:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say "it's you", but i have also had a few problems a while ago
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>not right now, though
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19:39<Pikka>hm
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22:52<Hinrik>when determining the payment for cargo, is it the actual map distance between industries which matters, or just the distance traveled?
22:52<@planetmaker>distance between station signs
22:53<Hinrik>so, if I had a coal mine and power station in close proximity, it would actually make sense to have the train take a long zig-zag route to get more money?
22:53<@planetmaker>no.
22:53<Hinrik>oh, wait, between stations, ah
22:53<Hinrik>ok, that makes sense
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23:42<Hinrik>hm, it seems to be pretty much impossible to build an intercontinental airport where it might be useful
23:43<Hinrik>due to noise
23:43<Hinrik>even though the coverage area doesn't reach the town, they still refuse
23:45<Hinrik>and this is next to where the transport rating is 'Good'
23:46<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Airports#Airport_noise
23:46<Pinkbeast>Isn't that "total airports per town"?
23:47<pjpe>have a shuttle bus to get to the airport
23:47<pjpe>or shuttle
23:47<pjpe>MONORAIL
23:47<pjpe>ogdenville has one
23:47<Hinrik>and New Haverbrook!
23:54<Hinrik>ah, it was North Haverbrook
---Logclosed Fri Sep 09 00:00:48 2011