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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-09

---Logopened Fri Sep 09 00:00:48 2011
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00:56<George>Is it possible to have procuderes that are severalactions 2, not a single line? (http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VarAction2Advanced#Using_procedures)
00:59<George>can this be a procedure?
01:00<George>all this huge code is only used to define 2 values (in 7D 00 and 7D 01) for future calculation
01:04<George>http://pastebin.com/edfCdH0L
01:04<George>I need it for several tiles, so want not to copypaste it
01:17<Pikka>all of owen's servers are so slow for me today, but I don't see why it's not possible
01:20<George>so the only requrement is to return 8xxx value?
01:20<George>And is it ok that this procedure is not for CB, but for drawing graphics?
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02:02<dihedral>greetings
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03:08<@planetmaker>moin
03:09<Markk>Goedemorgen
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05:13<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22910 /trunk/ (Makefile.bundle.in Makefile.src.in src/video/sdl_v.cpp): -Fix [FS#4617]: icon would (almost) never be shown for SDL builds
05:21<Hirundo>George: I have not studied your code in detail, but in general a procedure calls can consist of as many action2s as you'd want as long as the chain terminates with a callback result
05:22<Hirundo>you can even do nested procedure calls if you wish
05:23<George>Then I'll make a topic on the tt-forums for that case. I'm going to make a big procedure and I want some help. Also I hope my example could be useful for future GRF coding (as example)
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05:30<Hirundo>you can do procedure calls in the gfx callback also, but you can't return a graphics result directly from there
05:31<Hirundo>if you do that, the procedure call returns with 0xFFFF in ottd/new ttdpatch, or some undefined value in old ttdpatch
05:33<@Terkhen>good morning
05:54<appe>http://fac.dndr.se/poo/new_dump/appe_small_intestines_firstrev.mp3 yes/no?
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say "file not found", but that's probably too much of an in-joke ;)
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06:37<@planetmaker>hm... I nearly banned you for posting strange links without comment and context, appe
06:37<@planetmaker>be lucky that I saw your nick before
06:42<appe>oh, sorry.
06:43<appe>it's a track, and i didnt really realize the strangeness of the url :)
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09:18<PeanutHorst>i would like to know if an issue i am having is a bug or a feature.
09:19<PeanutHorst>basically, there are railway (conventional) carriages, but no locomotives.
09:19<PeanutHorst>steps to reproduce: start a game in 2100.
09:19<@Yexo>you need to build electric engines
09:19<@Yexo>or monorail / maglev even
09:19<Rubidium>that's a "feature"
09:19<@Yexo>hold you mouse down while clicking on the "build railway" button in the toolbar to see a list of railtypes
09:19<PeanutHorst>uh, i do not have electric locomotives.
09:19<Rubidium>the wagons work on all railtypes, the engines don't
09:19<PeanutHorst>that is the problem
09:20<@Yexo>alternatively you can enable the "engines never expire" option in the game settings
09:20<PeanutHorst>only monorail and maglev
09:20<PeanutHorst>hr,m
09:20<@Yexo>that depends on the climate, there are no electric engines in arctic and tropic by default
09:21<PeanutHorst>...
09:21<PeanutHorst>i'm playing arctic.
09:22<PeanutHorst>bugger me, this is ridiculous... oh well, maglev time! it's the future, and all ._.
09:22<@Yexo><Yexo> alternatively you can enable the "engines never expire" option in the game settings <- there is your solution if you want to keep playing with normal rail engines
09:22<Eddi|zuHause>well, you can load NewGRFs which change this
09:22<PeanutHorst>ah, i'm playing bare atm as i'm hosting a game multi over the internet
09:22<@Yexo>you might need to type "resetengines" in the console after changing that setting to fix your savegame
09:22<PeanutHorst>but yes, i'll play with newgrfs a bit later
09:23<PeanutHorst>Yexo: nah, i'll enjoy the schwing factor of the chimaera :D but i'll note that fix for next time, and also hover here. thanks kindly!
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09:56<@Belugas>hello
09:56<V453000>hi Lord of Unrealism
09:56<V453000>:p
09:56<__ln__>Lord of Unrealism :D
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10:10<@Belugas>hi guys :) and thanks for the title, a bit too much but still ;)
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10:25<Elukka>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14842999
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11:02<PeanutHorst>hey, has anyone ever tried getting openttd to work on classic mac os?
11:03<PeanutHorst>the thought's just occurred to me that it might be possible with a lot of patience, and i'll probably try at some point (i'm in an insane mood), but I just wanted to know if anyone else was my kind of crazy and had tried.
11:03<Ammler>it worked in past
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11:03<Ammler>I guess, with 0.6
11:03<Rubidium>Ammler: are you sure?
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11:04<PeanutHorst>Ammler: i'm guessing a lot's changed since then :p
11:04<PeanutHorst>but iot's a start!
11:05<Ammler>Rubidium: no, just guessing, time as Bjarni made the bins
11:05<@peter1138>for pre-os x?
11:05<Rubidium>then you're guessing quite wrong
11:06<PeanutHorst>peter1138: yeah, os 8.6 and 9
11:06<PeanutHorst>i'm not really expecting to compile for system 7 on a 68k
11:06<PeanutHorst>but being able to play on my power mac might be a nice diversion
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11:07<__ln__>i STRONGLY doubt ottd ever worked on MacOS classic
11:07<Ammler>only osx bins
11:07<PeanutHorst>ah, Ammler, i meant os 9, hence "classic"
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11:07<PeanutHorst>i know os x is still supported, it's too unixish to not be :p
11:08<Rubidium>0.1.4 has only MacOSX binaries; nobody ever made any earlier binaries AFAIK
11:08<Rubidium>unless you're talking about MorphOS and such
11:08<PeanutHorst>oooh, morphos >:3
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11:09<__ln__>i wonder if the latest Macs with classic are even powerful enough to run OTTD, even if someone managed to compile it.
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>PeanutHorst: there are lots of things not-unix-y enough to make it a real trouble to support OS X
11:11<@peter1138>__ln__, power mac g4 should be able to cope
11:14<PeanutHorst>__ln__: if a DOS machine can cope...
11:15<PeanutHorst>what's the average on that, a 486dx2?
11:15<PeanutHorst>let's be generous and say openttd would want a pentium 166 mmx
11:15<@peter1138>openttd is probably a bit more demanding that ttd was...
11:15<PeanutHorst>yes, but if it still targets DOS as more than a "look, we can target DOS"
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>i ran original transport tycoon on a 386 DX 25
11:15<__ln__>PeanutHorst: OTTD will definitely not run on a 486dx
11:15<PeanutHorst>it has some expectations about what a DOS machine is
11:15<@peter1138>PeanutHorst, it doesn't :)
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>although it significantly slowed down with more than 5 trains :p
11:16<PeanutHorst>peter1138: so it targets DOS for show then? :P
11:16<@peter1138>i don't know if it even works...
11:16<PeanutHorst>hrm
11:16<PeanutHorst>shame
11:16<__ln__>besides, who says you can't install DOS on a brand new Core i7?
11:17<PeanutHorst>i had a 486dx4 here that I was thinking of compiling OpenTTD for, just to see if it would be possible to enjoy :p
11:17<Rubidium>it works besides networking
11:17<PeanutHorst>__ln__: uh, common sense, given that most new computers don't even really use a proper BIOS
11:17<Rubidium>on computers where allegro supports the hardware
11:17<@peter1138>they don't?
11:17<PeanutHorst>Rubidium: shame, what's needed to get networking going under DOS?
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>DX4? did such a thing exist?
11:17<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yes
11:17<PeanutHorst>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but it was really a 3x multi
11:18<PeanutHorst>3x 33 == 100
11:18<PeanutHorst>hence you have 3.3v part intel dx4-100
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>3x33 is DX2
11:18<Rubidium>PeanutHorst: some library, don't know which one exactly
11:18<@peter1138>2x33
11:18<PeanutHorst>Eddi|zuHause: ... oh no you didn't. DX2 is 66
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>DX is 2x33
11:18<Rubidium>PeanutHorst: and probably quite a number of other changes
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>SX is 33
11:18<PeanutHorst>no it isn't
11:18<@peter1138>nope :)
11:18<PeanutHorst>SX is non-floating point
11:18<@peter1138>DX is 33
11:18<PeanutHorst>DX is fpu
11:18<PeanutHorst>SX and DX are 33
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>hm, then my impression is wrong
11:19<PeanutHorst>quite.
11:19<@peter1138>how could you not know about 20 year old obsolete processors? :p
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>i had an SX 25 laptop
11:19<PeanutHorst>peter1138: he's from germany
11:19<PeanutHorst>they're only state of the art there
11:19<PeanutHorst>i know, i'm german ;)
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>it should still work, but the battery is dead
11:19*peter1138 had a DX2 66 that was actually an overclocked 50
11:20<@peter1138>found that out a bit late to complain :p
11:20<PeanutHorst>peter1138: hahaha what
11:20*__ln__ had a DX33
11:20<PeanutHorst>i'm hoping with adequate cooling it might be possible to configure a DX4-100 to run at 40 x3, or 120
11:20<PeanutHorst>just give it a bit of a bootst
11:20<@peter1138>well, there were official DX4-120s
11:20<PeanutHorst>back in those days, extra MHz actually meant something
11:21<@peter1138>it still does
11:21<@peter1138>2.4 -> 3.0 is rather noticable for me
11:21<Eddi|zuHause>i took the processor with the lowest speed
11:21<PeanutHorst>peter1138: not intel, not - there was Am486, and there was Cyrix 5x86-133 (internally 4x, configured as 2x on the mobo, 33MHz bus)
11:21<__ln__>peter1138: overclocked a q6600?
11:21<@peter1138>exactly
11:22<@peter1138>PeanutHorst, might've been an amd, yeah, still it was officially a dx4 120
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>i had a Cyrix 6x86-200 (i think)
11:22<__ln__>i tried the same, but at least with that bios version, lost the speedstep functionality as a consequence, so it wasn't an option.
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>but it blew up
11:22<@peter1138>probably slower than than intel dx4 100 though, heh
11:22<PeanutHorst>Eddi|zuHause: that's a socket 5 processor
11:22<PeanutHorst>or a socket 7, perhaps
11:22<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, they did that :)
11:23<@peter1138>__ln__, i only get 66% and 100% anyway
11:23<@peter1138>1.6/2.4 (or 2.0/3.0)
11:25<@peter1138>i tend to set it to 3.0 anyway
11:25<@peter1138>cos linux is a bit dumb and doesn't always ramp it up when it should
11:25<@peter1138>some games stay stuck at 2.0, but they run much faster when 3.0 is used
11:26<__ln__>are you using the intel boxed cooler or something bigger?
11:26<@peter1138>something to do with waiting briefly for the gpu, i blieve
11:26<@peter1138>freezer pro 7 or something like that
11:26<@peter1138>i never tried it with the stock cooler
11:27<@peter1138>i never tried more than 3 either
11:27-!-kbrooks [~kbrooks@d24-235-130-117.home1.cgocable.net] has joined #openttd
11:27<kbrooks>hello
11:28<kbrooks>I tried pressing ctrl+alt+c
11:28<@peter1138>did your computer explode?
11:28<kbrooks>and the cheat window did not load.
11:29<kbrooks>openttd 1.1.0...
11:29<kbrooks>should i try latest stable and see?
11:30<@peter1138>did you try ctrl-alt-shift-c
11:30<@peter1138>or maybe that wasn't the alternative combination
11:31<@Yexo>ctrl-alt-win-c is the alternative one
11:31<@peter1138>(and, of course, are you in a single player game, not networked...)
11:31<kbrooks>thx peeter, and im in single
11:34<confound>misread that as "I'm single" and I was wondering when this became a pickup spot
11:35<kbrooks>funny
11:35<confound>thanks
11:36<kbrooks>confound, i misread you as peter1138
11:37<confound>we do look very similar
11:38<Elukka>confound this confusion!
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11:40<Eddi|zuHause>how can you mix up confound with peter1138? they have totally different colours :p
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11:41<Elukka>i occasionally mix up people whose nicks start with "El..." with myself
11:41<Elukka>and i'm like "What, I didn't say tha- Oh."
11:47<Elukka>nobody would happen to know a place to go to for reference pics and such of prussian wagons?
11:47<Elukka>best i can think of is the catalogs of model rail companies
11:47<Elukka>which while reasonably accurate are usually pretty limited
11:56<Elukka>ah, heh, oberhümer posted some nice pics
11:59<kbrooks>Eddi|zuHause, similiar writing style it seemed
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13:41<Wolf01>hoy
13:42<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22911 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt russian.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by ElNounch
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 48 changes by Peymanpn
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: russian - 3 changes by akasoft
13:46<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22912 /trunk/src/ai/ai_scanner.cpp: -Fix [FS#4753]: another attempt at fixing a related crash (can't reproduce it though)
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14:07<fjb|mobile>Moin
14:07<@Alberth>moin, moving fjb
14:08<fjb|mobile>:-)
14:13<__ln__>hmm.. if i'm running a 1.1.2 server, can i downgrade it to 1.1.1 and load the saved game?
14:14<@Yexo>yes (why would you want to do that?)
14:16<__ln__>it's plan B if a friend fails to compile/acquire 1.1.2 for his distro
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14:23<V453000>does FIRS influence the growth of towns anyhow?
14:23<V453000>(I dont think it does but I rather ask)
14:26<@Alberth>perhaps indirectly (as in making it more difficult to produce goods needed by towns)?
14:26<V453000>hmm, but do towns _need_ goods?
14:27<@Alberth>(I am however quite sure you are much better up-to-date with town growth conditions ;) )
14:28<@Alberth>depends on climate afaik
14:28<@Alberth>(and perhaps not exactly 'goods')
14:29<Eddi|zuHause>FIRS gives Goods the TE_WATER flag, so they are needed in desert
14:29<V453000>oh :) thanks Eddi
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>(it will say that in the town window)
14:31<@planetmaker>__ln__: 1.1.3-RC1 should work (again) as static... he could just download and unzip
14:33<kbrooks>hey
14:33<kbrooks>so when i click on go to in the vehicle window and click on a sation it doesn't wwork properlyy
14:34<__ln__>planetmaker: i think he found some way, at least he joined the server. :) but thanks
14:34<Elukka>in my experience cities grow almost uncontrollably fast even with the slowest setting and with only passenger service
14:34<Elukka>though that could be cargodist's indirect doing
14:36<@Alberth>kbrooks: 'does not work properly' is not something we understand
14:37<kbrooks>when i click on the station it does noot show in the orders
14:37<@Alberth>wrong type of station?
14:37<@Alberth>(bus to train station, bus to lorry station, truck to bus station?
14:38<kbrooks>hmm
14:38<kbrooks>youre riight
14:38<kbrooks>thx
14:38<@Alberth>yw :)
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>"Paypal tries to enforce USA's Cuba embargo onto german companies and their customers"
14:39<@Alberth>duh :)
14:40<@Alberth>what else would you expect from a True Americal Company?
14:40<@Alberth>*American
14:40<Rubidium>true? In what sense?
14:41<@Alberth>in being American, of course
14:42<z-MaTRiX>hiiii
14:42<Rubidium>but why am I paying a Luxembourgian company?
14:42<Wolf01>less taxes
14:43<z-MaTRiX>because its cool to play an exotic company
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>subsidiaries
14:43<@Alberth>or do you know an american company that ignores what the american politicians say, for their outside America clients?
14:43<z-MaTRiX>offshore
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>luxemburg doesn't even have a shore :p
14:43<z-MaTRiX>no matter
14:44<Rubidium>Alberth: yes...
14:44<z-MaTRiX>you will make a bank account in switzerland
14:44<Rubidium>e.g. google; I doubt the American politicians are fine with the filtering for China etc.
14:46<z-MaTRiX>who needs filtering?
14:46<z-MaTRiX>į can do my own blacklist for adservers
14:46<@Alberth>but the Chinese people suffer the filter, not the american people, so I doubt politicians care much
14:47<@Alberth>z-MaTRiX: filter your browser program away :)
14:47<z-MaTRiX>there are other means getting one
14:48<z-MaTRiX>and there are proxies
14:48<z-MaTRiX>are you in chinese?
14:49<@Yexo><Alberth> (bus to train station, bus to lorry station, truck to bus station? <- I've been confused by that case myself, I think we should show an error message
14:49<@Yexo>especially truck/bus can be confusing
14:50*Alberth considers that a good idea
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>we already have an error message for articulated bus to bus terminal, right?
14:55<__ln__>i wish to register a complaint
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>you know where those go
14:56<__ln__>somebody has changed the default signal to something that does not stop the trains
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>or maybe you changed signals while trains were nearby?
14:58<@planetmaker>signals always were meant just as art-deco
15:03<@Terkhen>see you tomorrow
15:13<@planetmaker>enjoy, Terkhen
15:33<Elukka>paypal has a history of doing everything the american government thinks to ask of them
15:33<Elukka>meanwhile the government does everything the corporations think to ask of them, they have a very understanding relationship :P
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16:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22913 /trunk/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [OSX]: make splash work again and make it work without needing to bundle it first
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16:52<b_jonas>I've set up a game deliberately easy, that is, no competitors and lots of money and lots of industries and towns
16:53<b_jonas>strangely, as I know how the game works, I can enjoy that mode too
16:53<b_jonas>I didn't think I would
16:53<b_jonas>but I do enjoy it
16:54<b_jonas>I'll have to upgrade my openttd now
16:54<Elukka>my challenge in the game is "how do i get all these people/this cargo this city/industry produces to where they want to go"
16:54<b_jonas>I currently have 1.1.1. Should I upgrade to 1.1.2, or directly to 1.1.3-RC1 instead?
16:54<Elukka>with cargo destinations passengers are particularly interesting
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16:55<b_jonas>however, the game says that houses accept "unknown cargo"
16:55<b_jonas>besides passengers and mail and goods
16:56<b_jonas>hmm, where do I download the RC?
16:59<b_jonas>http://www.openttd.org/en/download-stable lists only the stable
17:00<b_jonas>ah, found it: http://www.openttd.org/en/download-testing
17:02<@Yexo><b_jonas> however, the game says that houses accept "unknown cargo" <- most likely cause: you removed newgrfs from a running game
17:02<@Yexo>if you didn't change the newgrf config, please upload your savegame somewhere so we can figure out where the bug is
17:03<@planetmaker>some japanese(?) newgrf may cause that (or similar), iirc. Even without newgrf addremove
17:03<b_jonas>Yexo: I don't think I have removed after starting the game
17:03<b_jonas>planetmaker: yes, I'm using some japanese
17:03<@planetmaker>newgrf bug
17:03<b_jonas>I can upload the savegame,
17:03<@Yexo>easily resolved then :)
17:03<@Yexo>nah, if planetmaker already knows it's a bug in some japanese grf it's no use
17:03<b_jonas>but first I'll upgrade openttd and opengfx
17:03<b_jonas>okay, I won't then
17:04<b_jonas>thanks
17:05<b_jonas>I'm also learning to use PBS exclusively in this game
17:06<Elukka>PBS is amazing
17:06<b_jonas>yes
17:06<b_jonas>a large part of the wiki still explains how to make efficient junctions with pre-signals, much of which is obsolate because you can do more efficient with much simpler junctions using pbs
17:07<@planetmaker>there's nothing wrong with pre-signals
17:07<@planetmaker>but yes :-)
17:07<@planetmaker>path signals are easier to handle
17:07<b_jonas>yes
17:07<Elukka>PBS is more intuitive, easier and more forgiving
17:07<b_jonas>and it seems there are very few things you can do with block and presignals but can't do with path signals
17:08<Elukka>though you want to be really careful with that safe waiting position thing
17:08<@planetmaker>load balancing ;-)
17:08<Elukka>otherwise it'll come back and bite you in the ass as your network grows
17:08<b_jonas>yep, I got some trains stuck by design errors
17:08<b_jonas>and from misclicking and not noticing signals facing the wrong way
17:10<b_jonas>I've got lucky with a steel mill with three iron ore mines very close, producing 720, 720, 360 respectively
17:10<b_jonas>and there's also a factory close
17:10<b_jonas>(plus a farm and a smaller iron ore mine)
17:11<b_jonas>so now I had to design an efficient track to transport all the goods to a faraway city
17:11<b_jonas>but it works now
17:12<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22914 /trunk/src/saveload/order_sl.cpp: -Fix [FS#4716]: old TTO/TTD savegames could get non-stop via orders upon savegame loading, even when those orders did not exist back then. This 'conversion' feature is something for TTDPatch and old OpenTTD savegames
17:12<b_jonas>in this game I'm using newgrfs that don't change the game mechanics much but add new graphics
17:13<b_jonas>new stations and houses, but same vehicles and industries
17:16<b_jonas>ok, game and opengfx upgraded
17:16<b_jonas>yep, "invalid cargo" still there
17:17<@planetmaker>maybe bug them to release an update with just the cargo issue fixed
17:17<@planetmaker>though you can safely ignore that cargo. No harm in that particular case
17:17<@planetmaker>just ugly
17:17<b_jonas>and yes, it's probably the Japanese set, because according to the land query tool, only Japanese houses seem to accept it, not the Swedish houses
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17:19<b_jonas>what bothers me is still how transparency is handled
17:20<b_jonas>no setting I can find hides the smoke of power stations
17:20<b_jonas>and that smoke is large and distracting if you want to see what's behind
17:21<b_jonas>also, I think hiding the fences around railway tracks should be a separate button on the transparency toolbar, not just a part of "full detail"
17:21<b_jonas>because those fances are not only a performance thing, sometimes they're distracting
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17:22<b_jonas>but maybe instead it's the whole full detail that should be a button on the toolbar
17:22<b_jonas>remind me what effect it has besides hiding fences around rail and trees from town roads?
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>i think there was also something with road reconstruction graphics
17:25<b_jonas>I might have been a bit too eager while terraforming this mountain here
17:25<b_jonas>maybe I should have planned the tracks first and then flatten only where needed
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17:26<b_jonas>I don't think I ever ran so many trains on the same route. 12 trains.
17:27<@planetmaker>only? :-)
17:27<__ln__>Bjarni!
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: not entirely sure r22914 is the right thing to do...
17:27<@Bjarni>I have used way more than 12 on a line
17:27<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r22915 /trunk/src/ (aircraft.h aircraft_cmd.cpp saveload/vehicle_sl.cpp): -Fix (r22743): TTO savegames with any aircraft not in an hangar caused crashes during load
17:28<@Bjarni>doesn't sound impressive unless you tell they have 40 cars each or something
17:29<b_jonas>no, only 12 cars
17:29<b_jonas>12 cars each
17:29<@Bjarni>144 cars in total.... not that extreme
17:30<@Bjarni>though 12 cars is a good size with the right engine
17:30<b_jonas>probably. but I still think it's the highest I've got
17:30<b_jonas>engine is asiastar now
17:30<@Bjarni>I once tried 100 cars or something like that.... looks impressive, but it performs horribly, even with enough engines
17:31<b_jonas>let me check how many I have in the ttdpach game for the sawmill, but I think it was less
17:31<@Bjarni>it's not important
17:32<@Bjarni>having a whole lot of trains on a line isn't a goal on it's own
17:32<b_jonas>yes, the goal is to transport as much of the 720+720+360 iron and the steel and goods as possible
17:33<b_jonas>and the goods to far away
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17:34<Elukka>note that the more you transport and the faster your vehicles go, the more likely the production increases
17:34<Elukka>you always want to have at least one vehicle loading at an industry station
17:34*Bjarni imagines somebody thinking the number of trains as an important factor and makes a fleet of trains with just one car each
17:34<b_jonas>I mean, I could add more trains but it would get worse
17:35<b_jonas>more smaller trains can be important if you transport long distance and want higher rating
17:37<Elukka>i don't think there's technically any difference whether it's just 2 trains
17:37<b_jonas>but I think once I upgrade this to maglev, these 12 trains should give a consistent 100% rating
17:37<Elukka>as long as the second hasn't finished loading before the first returns
17:37<b_jonas>Elukka: hmm
17:37<Elukka>but it's not terribly practical to make overlong trains!
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>i think 15 tiles was my longest
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>with slightly shortened wagons
17:39<b_jonas>I might be able to add a few more trains here, but first I'd like to see that they consistently don't get stuck at either station
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17:39<Elukka>if your station is properly designed they won't ;)
17:39<b_jonas>but it's probably better to just wait for maglev (or upgrade to monorail now)
17:40<b_jonas>I _think_ it's properly designed, but I'm not sure
17:40<Elukka>heh
17:41<b_jonas>the factory station is easy because it's in open space, but the city station is a bit squeezed both because it has to be close to the city to accept goods and because there's another small town close
17:42<b_jonas>that small town is still angry at me for terraforming so I can't bulldoze it down yet
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17:42<b_jonas>but I was careful and knew this so I have a small passenger station in it so the rating eventually rises
17:43<b_jonas>I think I'm at permanent war with only two towns
17:43<b_jonas>in this game
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17:45<b_jonas>hmm wait
17:46<b_jonas>which stations count for the slow increase/decrease of authority ratings? only ones in the inner city area, any within the town's authority, or any that'd be named from that town?
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>all with the city's name in it
17:54<Elukka>you can also bribe
17:54<Elukka>or plant trees, which is a tad silly :D
17:55<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: tyanks
17:55<b_jonas>yes, I often try planting trees
17:55<b_jonas>it can help when I'm just a bit below, but when rating is very low and town is already surrounded by trees then it's hard to get rating back that way
17:56*Eddi|zuHause tries to not tell about the tree cheat right now
17:56<b_jonas>I haven't tried bribing yet, but apparently when your rating is very bad then an unsuccessful bribe is better than a successful one
17:56<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: I know, destroy all the trees, rebuild trees
17:56<b_jonas>I've tried
17:56<b_jonas>it's not easy
17:57<b_jonas>in theory if you wait for 14 years you get your rating back just for doing nothing
17:57<b_jonas>that also doesn't seem to work well for me
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17:58<b_jonas>dunno, councils just don't behave for me like it's described in the wiki
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17:58<@Bjarni>Oh dear.... just when I thought politicians couldn't get any lower they still find a way to get lower: physical assault. Some guy was in a panel debate and all he did was talking about room decorations. Some other politician asked him to be serious or be replaced by another party member and this was replied by a hand flying into his head
18:00<@Bjarni>the "best" part is: his son states that he gets like that once in a while and it becomes impossible to reach him
18:01<@Bjarni>why are the politicians such freaks and/or idiots?
18:02<b_jonas>plus, I'd still like an easier way in the interface to add a train to a group
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18:13<Wolf01>'night
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18:15<b_jonas>night
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18:19<csaba>the oil tankers cost like $8 million a piece, any idea why?
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18:23<Elukka>csaba: oil tankers as in ships or train cars, in vanilla or a grf set?
18:25<@planetmaker>inflation. Different currency. cost newgrf
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18:34<b_jonas>csaba: how much does the best train cost in the same game?
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19:14<csaba>the best train is around 200K
19:14<csaba>oil tankers as in ships
19:14<csaba>the ships cost several millions to build, no idea why...
19:15<V453000>because ships are retarded
19:15<V453000>most likely
19:17<pjpe>grfs aren't always well balanced
19:17<pjpe>the dutch tram set has trams that only fit like 50 passengers max
19:17<pjpe>like every other tram set has the real life number of 100+
19:18<@Bjarni>It's really easy to make completely unbalanced and unrealistic grf files
19:18<Elukka>i like long vehicles for road vehicle balancing
19:18<Elukka>makes them actually useful, especially when coupled with a high running costs train set
19:19<@Bjarni>it's tough to make well balanced ones though
19:19<Elukka>although internally lv has bizarre balance decisions
19:19<Elukka>like, some buses have $1000/month maintenance and some marginally faster bus is $7000/month and is obviously never worth it
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19:22<@Bjarni>sometimes real life is like that
19:22<@Bjarni>ok, it could be a bit extreme
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19:24<b_jonas>real life _is_ like that
19:24<@Bjarni>I have one real life example. In 1952 a Danish locomotive factory sold a 750 hp diesel locomotive design. One railroad asked for a version without turbocharger and they got that.
19:24<@Bjarni>the problem is.... without turbocharger it only had 500 hp
19:24<@Bjarni>and it used more diesel for each hp
19:24<b_jonas>the $7000/month one is bought because the owner of the factory is the cousin of the town mayor, or a blonde that went to bed with him
19:25<Elukka>haha
19:25<Elukka>i think lv is meant to have intracity and intercity buses
19:25<Elukka>the former have more capacity but are slow, the latter have less capacity but are faster
19:25<Elukka>it's just the intercity buses are so expensive to run they're useless
19:26<pjpe>why on earth did they ask for that
19:26<@Bjarni>they didn't want to maintain a turbocharger
19:26<pjpe>is long vehicles the one that has like 1000 vehicles
19:26<pjpe>and some of them from real life
19:26<pjpe>like the model t and mercedes tour busses
19:26<pjpe>and so on?
19:26<Elukka>ummm mmaybe
19:27<pjpe>that one always kinds of rubs me the wrong way
19:27<pjpe>just too many vehicles
19:27<Elukka>it doesn't have terribly many though so i dunno
19:27<Elukka>http://george.zernebok.net/logo.png
19:27<Elukka>does it look like that?
19:28<pjpe>yes
19:28<pjpe>with the weird futuristic one in the top left
19:28<Elukka>i've used it for forever
19:28<pjpe>these sets should really come with condensed versions
19:28<pjpe>2cc could use one
19:29<Elukka>i think the modern vehicles are maybe a bit too big but i like the graphics and it's the only road vehicle set i know of where the trucks have any use
19:30<Elukka>definitely my favorite road vehicle grf
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19:35<@Bjarni>because of the vehicle stats or because of the graphics?
19:35<@Bjarni>for all we know you could be staring at the uncut sprites all the time :p
19:38<Elukka>i use the cut version not because i dislike looking at boobs but i feel it's a bit out of place :P
19:39<@planetmaker>pjpe: make a list of which vehicles make up the condensed version and suggest it in the resp. newgrf threads
19:40<@planetmaker>alternatively or additionally: you should learn to code newgrfs ;-)
19:41<Elukka>ridiculously long vehicle lists like 2cc's don't make me go "hm this could use with some trimming", it makes me go "oooooh so many little pixel trains \o/"
19:41<pjpe>maybe i will
19:41<pjpe>i have no idea how 2cc is set up though
19:41<pjpe>i looked through the source
19:41<pjpe>and golly thats a lot more nml than i care to learn
19:42<pjpe>but i might make a list
19:42<pjpe>like i like having all the vehicles it has now but sometimes it just feels like too much
19:43<Elukka>i can see why one would want a set where everything has a thought out role with nothing extraneous
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19:44<@planetmaker>2ccTS is written in nfo
19:47<Pinkbeast>I think a "real world" vehicles set is always going to have lots of spurious vehicles because of the way speed is so important in OTTD
19:48<Pinkbeast>Unless you're deliberately reducing income to make a more interesting layout (and there's nothing wrong with that) you're 99% of the time going to want the most powerful and/or quick vehicles, and you'll never use (eg) a shunting locomotive
19:49<@planetmaker>depends :-) But you're most often right
19:50<Pinkbeast>Well, you're _so often_ having capacity problems that it becomes very difficult to do anything else.
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19:51<valhallasw>it's mostly that shunting is irrelevant
19:51<valhallasw>shunting corresponds to a hub-spoke infrastructure
19:51<valhallasw>where wagons are uncoupled and recombined
19:51<Pinkbeast>valhalla> I don't think it is. I mean, that's why one rarely uses shunting engines, but any low-power engine is going to see limited use however cheap it is.
19:52<Pinkbeast>It's Pikka's "Deltics everywhere" problem
19:52<valhallasw>well, locomotives are too cheap
19:53<valhallasw>in real life, you would take some time to replace a locomotive, because of the cost
19:53<valhallasw>but in general, you don't buy slow, old, locomotives
19:53<Pinkbeast>I think that's more down to the essentially unlimited supply of money in the middle and late game.
19:54<Pinkbeast>... and the lack of an "autoreplace when older than n years" option, and the way that having trains of different speeds works even worse than IRL.
19:55<Pinkbeast>But even if I only replaced locomotives when old, I would almost certainly (if, again, playing without an eye on reality) always pick a new and powerful locomotive at replacement time
19:55<Pinkbeast>I don't see it as a problem, really - a "real world" set can have less useful vehicles in, reality fans can use them, people "just playing" can not, everyone's happy.
19:56<Pinkbeast>... except Pikka going "why do all UKRS1 games use Deltics all the time"? :-/
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19:59<@Bjarni>there is a serious balance issue regarding replacing vehicles compared to real life
19:59<@Bjarni>I mean it's not difficult for me to find real life locomotives, which are like 50 years old still running freight trains
20:00<@Bjarni>this will not happen in OTTD
20:01<Elukka>it will if you play with breakdowns off :P
20:02<@Bjarni>oh and the deltic everywhere issue.... in real life I don't like the deltic engine. It's too complex and fragile. This means it spends too long in the repair shop compared to operational hours... another issue not simulated
20:03<Pinkbeast>It does depends on where you are - pretty sure there's nothing left from '61 here.
20:03<Elukka>the crux of the 'issue' is that openttd does not have the complexities that warrant using many different types of engines that real life has
20:03<@Bjarni>Cennential suffers from the same bad working/repair radio issue, though for different technical reasons
20:03<Pinkbeast>Bjarni> Well, a sensible treatment of reliability and breakdowns is something we could really use...
20:04<@Bjarni>yeah
20:04<@Bjarni>I just don't know how it should be done :p
20:04<@Bjarni>not codewise, more like gameplaywise
20:04<Elukka>even then it's only an annoyance because of the way the economy is
20:04<Elukka>with infinite money and all
20:04<@Bjarni>how should it be done more realistic without breaking gameplay?
20:04<Pinkbeast>... I don't have Deltics everywhere in UKRS1 games but only because I never build diesels
20:05<Elukka>ottd isn't really much of a business sim
20:05<Pinkbeast>"more realistic" isn't the question I'm asking, as I see it breakdowns already break gameplay.
20:05<Elukka>i'd like to see a more fleshed out economy, but simultaneously i can see why the ottd devs don't really want to do it and why it's something for someone else to make a branch off
20:06<@Bjarni><Pinkbeast> ... I don't have Deltics everywhere in UKRS1 games but only because I never build diesels <-- in real life UK steam died really fast because it could remove the running costs of water towers and stuff
20:06<Pinkbeast>What'd I'd ask is "how can we make breakdowns a meaningful gameplay element which is not Incredibly Annoying and which makes both high and low reliability locomotives sometimes appropriate"
20:06<@Bjarni> <Pinkbeast> "more realistic" isn't the question I'm asking, as I see it breakdowns already break gameplay. <-- yeah, that too.... but it still leaves the question how it should work
20:07<Elukka>pinkbeast, i think that's only possible if you didn't have an essentially infinite amount of money
20:07<Elukka>as it is you'd be using the more reliable locomotives all the time
20:07<Pinkbeast>Not if the low reliability ones tend to be newer and faster.
20:08<Pinkbeast>Bjarni> I tend to feel we should have gone directly from steam to electrification, not kept steam around indefinitely (although we arguably did waste a lot of money building new modern locomotives in the early 50s and scrapping them 10 years later)
20:08<Elukka>didn't the swiss do that?
20:09<@Bjarni>Pinkbeast: I fully agree and it was debated even when electrification started
20:09<Pinkbeast>Yes. And given that the SR here was extensively electrified, it's not like it would have been an insurmountable problem.
20:09<Elukka>http://www.maerklin.com/en/service/search/details.html?lang=en&page=&perpage=10&level1=3928&level2=3930&artnr=&art_nr=37266&search=1&era=0&gaugechoice=0&groupchoice=0&subgroupchoice=0&catalogue=0&features=0&searchtext=KPEV&backlink=%2Fwww.maerklin.com%2Fen%2Fservice%2Fsearch%2Fproduct_search.html
20:10<Elukka>heh.. prussian EMU for CETS?
20:10<Pinkbeast>Switzerland now is very like the UK might have been without Beeching and Marples - railway stations (often request stops) in villages, bits and bobs of goods sent by rail.
20:10<@Bjarni>here (Denmark) the social democrats cancelled the plans for electrification around 1999. Conservative/liberals are in charge now and the social democrats blame those for still running diesel :/
20:11<@Bjarni>because the new DMU doesn't work (ordered when electrification was cancelled, hence they ordered those themselves)
20:12<Pinkbeast>We still seem to have this mad "electric and diesel" express train plan coming.
20:13<@Bjarni>which express train?
20:13<Elukka>we have stupid rail infrastructure hickups because someone decided it'd be a good idea to split the trains and the tracks to different (state-owned) companies
20:13<@Bjarni>I know Spain has a diesel electric train, which can switch to external power, but UK... never heard about it
20:13<Elukka>so when stuff doesn't work the train company gets to say "eh, not our problem" and of course the track company doesn't have the money to keep the tracks in condition
20:14<Pinkbeast>Elukka> Ha, try it here where they're all private
20:14<@Bjarni><Elukka> we have stupid rail infrastructure hickups because someone decided it'd be a good idea to split the trains and the tracks to different (state-owned) companies <--- somebody is EU. Denmark suffers from it too
20:14<Pinkbeast>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_Express_Programme
20:14<Elukka>ours is state-owned yet ran like a private company
20:14<Elukka>a combination of the worst of both worlds! :D
20:14<kbrooks>Elukka, bureautic and ... ?
20:14<Pinkbeast>Network Rail doesn't know quite what it is, to avoid admitting that it's a renationalisation of Railtrack
20:15<Elukka>overly concerned with profit rather than functional rail service
20:15<kbrooks>greedy rigt
20:15<kbrooks>got it
20:15<Elukka>finland, by the way
20:15<@Bjarni>the infrastructure owner realized they actually need trains to maintain tracks and went out and bought diesel locomotives. Now the infrastructure owner is also a train operator (against the whole idea)
20:16<Elukka>for all my complaining it still works fairly well
20:16<Elukka>but the problems are so avoidable
20:17<@Bjarni>the reason why the tracks and trains are split into different companies is because EU wants train companies to operate in all countries
20:17<@Bjarni>both DB and SJ drives in Denmark now
20:17<@Bjarni>Arriva too
20:18<Pinkbeast>Arriva? You have my sympathy.
20:18<Elukka>why does that mean DSB can't still own the infrastructure?
20:19<@Bjarni>surprisingly they actually operate just fine.... at least better than DSBFirst (which is a new company formed by DSB, the state railroad, and First group, a Scottish company)
20:19<Pinkbeast>Because a private track+train operator has zero incentive to make it easy for anyone else to run trains on their track
20:19<Pinkbeast>First? You have my... well, y'know.
20:19<@Bjarni><Elukka> why does that mean DSB can't still own the infrastructure? <-- both yes and no. They own repairshops and sidings, but not tracks between stations
20:20<Elukka>i see
20:20<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, hmm. in ontario CPR does both
20:20<kbrooks>or so i thought
20:21<Elukka>i wonder why we expect other companies would want to run trains in finland, though...
20:21<@Bjarni>this one is golden. Some land measure guy went out and measured where DSB still owned land and where they had to give it up (to BaneDanmark)
20:21<Elukka>there's that sea
20:21<Elukka>and then there's the fact we run broad gauge
20:21<@Bjarni>the new marked line ended up in a siding
20:21<@Bjarni>meaning one rail belongs to DSB and one rail belongs to BaneDanmark
20:21<Pinkbeast>kbrooks> I daresay it is done, but what I'm saying is it doesn't exactly make it easy for competing operators.
20:22<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, well, VIA and GO compete in the sense of trains
20:22<@Bjarni><Elukka> i wonder why we expect other companies would want to run trains in finland, though... <--- Arriva started by renting trains in Denmark. They bought new ones now though.
20:22<kbrooks>GO is intercity rail and VIA is national rail
20:22<@Bjarni>their routes doesn't leave the country
20:23<Elukka>hmm
20:23<@Bjarni>it's not like a Copenhagen-London route
20:23-!-KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:23<Elukka>yeah i see
20:23<@Bjarni>DB made a Copenhagen-Hamburg route through
20:23<Pinkbeast>Oh, Finland's on Russian gauge?
20:23<@Bjarni>Pinkbeast: didn't you know that?
20:23<Elukka>finland's on not-quite-russian-but-close-enough-to-run-trains-on-both gauge
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20:24<Pinkbeast>Apropos of nothing much I've been on Didcot's _Firefly_ on Brunel's 7' 1/4" broad gauge
20:24<Pinkbeast>Bjarni> Nope, I've never been to Finland let alone on a train
20:25<valhallasw>Elukka: hey, we have that split, too. It doesn't work here, either. (NL)
20:25<Elukka>russian is 1520 mm, finnish is 1524 mm
20:25<Elukka>heh
20:26<Swissfan91>anyone good with MS Visio here ? :D
20:26<Elukka>also we keep buying pendolinos despite them never working
20:27<Elukka>they gave up trying to couple sets together during the winter
20:27<@Bjarni>ahhh great.... BaneDanmark decided to add more rocks on the tracks tonight
20:27<@Bjarni>it's really noisy outside right now :/
20:27<Pinkbeast>Tilting trains seems to be one of those ideas fated to have to be tried and fail everywhere
20:27<Elukka>these being trains supposedly built for finnish conditions
20:27<valhallasw>please don't get me started about italian trains
20:27<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, whats a tilting train?
20:27<Elukka>these ones don't actually tilt
20:27<valhallasw>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Fyra_Vught.jpg just. look. at. it.
20:27<valhallasw>although that isn't the worst angle
20:28<Pinkbeast>Elukka> Oh, they turn it off in winter?
20:28<Pinkbeast>kbrooks> Er... a train that tilts in corners to let it go faster
20:28<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, oh okay
20:29<Elukka>...oh, they do tilt
20:29<Elukka>nevermind!
20:29<Elukka>we have these
20:29<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Green_Finnish_Pendolino.JPG
20:29<Pinkbeast>It seems like a great idea until you find out a) it means you have to make them smaller, especially if you have an itty-bitty loading gauge like the UK
20:29<@Bjarni>http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/354484/530wm/T6500083-Swedish_X2000_high-speed_train-SPL.jpg <--- tilting train
20:29<Elukka>and then we bought these in cooperation with the russian railway for some reason: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Sm6_Allegro_7053_Helsinki.JPG
20:29<@Bjarni>(Swedish)
20:29<Pinkbeast>b) they tend to go wrong on a regular basis
20:29<Elukka>they still don't work
20:30<Pinkbeast>and c) tilting the track in corners works pretty well, doesn't go wrong on a regular basis, and works with all your existing trains too
20:31<@Bjarni>valhallasw: the real question is: can the train actually drive?
20:32<valhallasw>Bjarni: well, the brand new ones might. Until someone has to fix them, and realizes he has no idea what wire does what.
20:32<valhallasw>because, well, we're out of yellow wire, so let's continue with red.
20:33<@Bjarni>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IC4 <--- they made this one and.... oh-oh
20:34<valhallasw>well, there's one running!
20:34<valhallasw>in Libya, at least -_-
20:34<@Bjarni>basically it's a DMU which can't connect two sets
20:35<@Bjarni><valhallasw> in Libya, at least -_- <--- that's actually an issue. It's a custom design for DSB only and all of a sudden Gadaffi has one
20:35<Pinkbeast>A lot of high-speed DMUs can't...
20:35<@Bjarni> <Pinkbeast> A lot of high-speed DMUs can't... <--- maybe, but the contract stated that 3 sets should be able to drive together as one train
20:36<@Bjarni>connecting just two sets is a nightmare
20:36<@Bjarni>and so unstable that it's not done anymore
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>german ICE3 trains often travel in pairs
20:36<@Bjarni>3 sets has never been possible
20:36<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: as well as thalys and tgv sets
20:36<Pinkbeast>I wonder if the circle of reincarnation is going to bring us back to DVTs at some point
20:36<Eddi|zuHause>typically on routes that are scheduled to split up and rejoin
20:36<valhallasw>but those are not diesel, technically ;-)
20:37<@Bjarni>the trains has A and B ends, which makes 4 possibilities for connecting two sets
20:37<@Bjarni>only one works
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>well, there's the ICE-TD
20:37<valhallasw>true
20:37<@Bjarni>and that one only partly works
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>which honestly has problems on its own...
20:37<Eddi|zuHause>and it's actually not derived from the ICE3, but the ICE-T
20:37<@Bjarni>what problems?
20:37<valhallasw>why is it, in the 2010's, so hard to build working trains
20:38-!-Nite_Owl [~chatzilla@c-76-109-73-27.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd
20:38<Pinkbeast>Gresley has been dead for 70 years.
20:38<@Bjarni>because politicians decides to build them cheap in Italy and then they always go over budget and below specifications
20:38<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: because of two conflicting developments: more complicated technique needing more maintenance, and economical requirements requiring cutting maintenance cost
20:39<kbrooks>i cann see in two years in my game that road vehicle income - road vehicle expenses is only 10,000. how can i widen that gap?
20:39<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: as far as i remember, the ICE-TD had problems with the tilting mechanism
20:39<Nite_Owl>Is it known that any river .grf other than the default one glitches in the latest versions of trunk ?
20:40<Eddi|zuHause>Nite_Owl: if it's not at the bug tracker, it's not known
20:40<Pinkbeast>What RV set are you using, kbrooks? (And what are the absolute figures here - on what turnover is that 10,000 profit earned?)
20:40*Nite_Owl off to do a quick search
20:41<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: as far as i remember, the ICE-TD had problems with the tilting mechanism <-- that explains why they are used between Copenhagen and Hamburg. The speed limits are so low that tilting isn't needed
20:41<Elukka>the old russian and newer swiss locomotives work fine here
20:41<Elukka>the old finnish diesels too
20:41<Elukka>the italian semi high speed EMUs though... they just don't
20:41<Elukka>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VR_Class_Sm4
20:41<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: they were originally intended for the route Dresden-Nürnberg, which is quite mountaneous and curvy
20:41<Elukka>these ones surprisingly do work
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20:42<Eddi|zuHause>they were surprisingly enough rarely meeting their scheduled times, due to tilting failing...
20:42<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, clarify rv set. also average income for both years and average expenses for both years: 78300 - 65300 = 13,300
20:42<kbrooks>er, 13,000
20:42<Eddi|zuHause>and eventually pulled off service, after the track was badly damaged in the 2002 Elbe/Mulde flooding
20:42<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, and you might need to clarify turnover.
20:43<Pinkbeast>I mean, are you using the game's default RVs or... ?
20:43<kbrooks>default RVs
20:43<Nite_Owl>Nothing there. I wonder if it is due to a recent .grf change in trunk which would make the .grfs at fault?
20:44<Pinkbeast>The usual explanation is traffic jams somewhere meaning you're paying running costs and getting no income
20:44<@Bjarni>The speed limit is 120 km/h a great deal of the way in Denmark. The tracks from Puttgarten to Hamburg aren't anywhere near bullettrain like either
20:44<Nite_Owl>Being that rivers and there generation is a relatively new thing...
20:45<Nite_Owl>*their
20:45<@Bjarni><EddizuHause> they were surprisingly enough rarely meeting their scheduled times, due to tilting failing... <--- people wouldn't notice here... they would just be like the other trains :p
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: the Dresden-Nürnberg tracks are not especially fast either
20:45<@Bjarni>ok, it's not THAT bad, but really...
20:45<kbrooks>pinkbeat: okay, 4 road vehicles have the same loss
20:46<Pinkbeast>It's that or... are you using any transfer orders?
20:46<Eddi|zuHause>back when i went by train around there, the limit was 100km/h, dunno if they made special exceptions for tilt trains
20:46<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, one minute i'll evaluate the orders
20:46<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: I would think the 100 km/h is a physical limit, not a comfort limit
20:47<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, okay, no transfer orders, but only two orders
20:47<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: based on which data?
20:47<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, all other road vehicles have more than two orders and they are all making money
20:47-!-dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out]
20:47<Pinkbeast>Perhaps you could describe the orders of the loss-making vehicles?
20:48-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c5ec:c980:a2e4:cf16] has quit [Quit: bye]
20:48<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: I would expect speed limits to be related to the foundation of the track etc
20:48<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause> valhallasw: based on which data? <-- calculated risk of derailing
20:48<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, as per to what?
20:48-!-Nite_Owl [~chatzilla@c-76-109-73-27.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 6.0.2/20110902133214]]
20:48<valhallasw>not on the expected comfort level of passengers in certain coaches
20:48<valhallasw>but I might very well be wrong
20:49<Pinkbeast>Anything at all would be a start. What vehicle? What cargo? Full load orders?
20:49<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: the entire point of tilt trains is to run faster through curves...
20:49<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, well
20:49<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, good thinking
20:49<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: yes, but it doesn't change anything physically
20:49<valhallasw>you still have to adapt the track
20:49<@Bjarni>http://b.bimg.dk/node-images/488/580x362-c/488662-togdriften-delvist-genoptaget-efter-afsporing--.jpg <--- this is what happens when track speed and train speed don't match
20:50<Pinkbeast>A savegame might be easier if it's vanilla OTTD
20:50<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: the only thing tilting changes is the passenger comfort
20:50<@Bjarni>clearly speed limits are for safety reasons
20:50<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, buses with passengers. one station has less passengers than the other - 70 times less
20:50<Pinkbeast>And are you giving full load orders at either or both ends?
20:50<@Bjarni>in this case they forgot to tell the train drivers that the track was bad and that they should slow down
20:51<@Bjarni>http://b.bimg.dk/node-images/180/620x411-c/180979-hidtil-uset-skinnebrud-mske-rsag-til-afsporing--.jpg <--- the track afterwards
20:51<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, they aren't (as far as di can see) needed because the buses have 37 passengers and both stations are consistently over 37 passengers
20:52-!-dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
20:52<valhallasw>anyway, my clock suggests it's time for bed. Good night to you all.
20:52<Pinkbeast>Is this ordinary OTTD or a patch pack or something? Do the stations connect to anywhere else?
20:52<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, i just told the buses to unload and wait for full load
20:53<kbrooks>Pinkbeast, ordinary OTTD and nowhere else
20:53-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Quit: nn]
20:53<Pinkbeast>Obviously you don't want to wait for a full load at the less busy end.
20:53<Pinkbeast>And I think in general you should avoid reading "Are you doing XYZ" as "You should do XYZ"
20:54<kbrooks>i didn't read it as that
20:54<Pinkbeast>"i just told the buses to unload and wait for full load" - why?
20:54<kbrooks>one bus i looked and noticed passengers didnt drop off
20:55<Pinkbeast>Does the small station actually accept passengers?
20:55<kbrooks>yup
20:55<Pinkbeast>Got a savegame?
20:55<kbrooks>hmm
20:55<kbrooks>oone sec
20:55<kbrooks>oh damn
20:55<kbrooks>you're right
20:55<kbrooks>it doesnt accept passengers
20:56<Pinkbeast>There we go. :-)
20:56<kbrooks>i'll fix situation
20:57<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: is there supposed to be what seem to be company color 2 colors on the CETS livery template?
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: company colour 2 is only active if you enable it by coding the grf. it's just supposed to be a green blob otherwise...
20:58<Elukka>hm, okay, so those colors can be used?
20:58<Eddi|zuHause>yes
20:58<Elukka>cool
21:00<@Bjarni>goodnight
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21:02<Elukka>was pondering which template to use for the prussian compartment wagons when i remembered the umbauwagen that i previously drew were built out of them...
21:10<Swissfan91>any fancy drawing some industries? :D
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21:12<Elukka>unfortunately i'm quite busy on this :P
21:12<Elukka>(busy procrastinating i mean)
21:14<kbrooks_>lol
21:15<Swissfan91>ha ha :)
21:15<Swissfan91>well at least now I have drawn up an industry tree, so I know what to draw
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21:16<Swissfan91>so hopefully, you'll be seeing industries such as florists, meadows and vineyards soon :)
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21:19<Elukka>hm, prussians had both brown and green coaches...
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21:22<Elukka>brown was third class, green was second, green with yellow trim first, apparently
21:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes. grey=4th class, brown=3rd class, green = 2nd clas
21:22<Elukka>is CETS going to use more than one?
21:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say for local coaches start with 3rd class, and then do other fancy stuff
21:24<Elukka>hmm... brown for the 2 axles, green for the 4 axles, maybe? can always draw variations later
21:24<Eddi|zuHause>might do random liveries or livery refits later
21:24<Elukka>what about the 3 axle cars though
21:24<Elukka>i love what DB set does with the UIC-X wagons
21:25<Elukka>adds the restaurant coach, though i'd prefer if the first class coaches weren't refits but were randomly added
21:27<Eddi|zuHause>maybe for the early ages, we could do 2 axle coaches for local trains, and 3 axle coaches for express trains
21:27<Elukka>what about the longer prussian coaches?
21:28<Eddi|zuHause>there are also commuter coaches to be picked
21:28<Eddi|zuHause>just pick a few common coaches and start drawing :)
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21:29<Elukka>drawing a green 3 axle coach at the moment
21:33<Elukka>well, or brown, or whatever. not going to take more than a second to change it long as i keep the base color on a separate layer
21:35<Eddi|zuHause>you can use some magic colours and do a recolour table for both
21:40<kbrooks__>okay
21:40<kbrooks__>so i've been having a train signal issue
21:41<Pinkbeast>Go on...
21:41<kbrooks__>after one train leaves a station, in the process there is a two way signal it has to go through.
21:41<kbrooks__>threre is another train in the station that is leaving, but i t is blocked by that train.
21:41<Pinkbeast>Path-based or block-based?
21:42<Pinkbeast>A screenshot is probably the thing here.
21:42<kbrooks__>bllock based - what is path-based?
21:42<Elukka>superior!
21:42<Elukka>:P
21:42<Pinkbeast>That's about the level of it.
21:42<kbrooks__>due to following ordders?
21:42<Elukka>they're the rightmost signals in the signal interface, i think?
21:43<kbrooks__>do path based signals follow orders?
21:43<Pinkbeast>Do they "follow orders"?
21:43<Pinkbeast>I have no idea what you mean, I'm afraid.
21:43<Elukka>in practice they work the same as normal signals except they're better
21:43<Pinkbeast>http://wiki.openttd.org/Signals
21:45<Pinkbeast>But fundamentally; suppose you have an X crossover between two lines. With block-based signals, a train on one line blocks the other line. With path-based signals it doesn't; trains reserve a path to the next signal and only that path blocks other trains.
21:45<kbrooks__>how do i change things over?
21:46<Pinkbeast>There's a "replace signal" tool in the signals gui, but let's see a screenshot of your problem?
21:46<kbrooks__>actually none available yet but i think it will recur soon
21:46<Pinkbeast>The layout will probably suffice to work out what's wrong.
21:47<kbrooks__>ah ok
21:47<kbrooks__>how do i d o one within game
21:47<kbrooks__>?
21:48<Pinkbeast>Pulldown menu from the rightmost icon on the toolbar
21:50<kbrooks__>http://imgur.com/OlzMu?full
21:51<kbrooks__>actually this one is the imaage
21:51<kbrooks__>http://i.imgur.com/OlzMu.png
21:52<Pinkbeast>OK, where's the problem happen?
21:53<kbrooks__>one train from thre top leaving station. one train at bottom leaving too and two trains backlogged from north waiting for the top train to leave, but top train is blocked by the signal after the station
21:54<Pinkbeast>Which station? Strathill mines?
21:54<kbrooks__>ywah
21:54<Pinkbeast>You essentially never want series of two-way signals like that.
21:55<Pinkbeast>It's a recipe for trains coming up to each other and stopping.
21:55<kbrooks__>so what do i do insteased f the current configuration?
21:56<Pinkbeast>Well, short of going to path-based signals, _no_ two-way signal except perhaps at a station entrance.
21:57<Pinkbeast>But that crossover NE of Strathill Mines is a perfect example of the problem with block signalling - only one train can use it at once.
21:59<kbrooks__>if i use a path signal at the station entrance, what will be the result?
22:01<Pinkbeast>http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/signals.png is an example terminus station with path-based signals.
22:01<Pinkbeast>Notice I have one-way signals right up to the crossover.
22:03<Pinkbeast>But I think your problem is more fundamental - if you have a line of track with multiple 2-way signals on, there's nothing stopping a train entering it at each end, and then they meet in the middle.
22:07<Pinkbeast>Terminus stations with block-based signals usually use pre-signals and exit signals - otherwise there's nothing to stop a train entering the block before the station when all platforms are full, and then no-one can get out.
22:07<Pinkbeast>So I would also read the wiki about pre-signals and exit signals.
22:15<Elukka>hmm... fine line between too messy and not enough detail on the compartment coaches
22:15<Elukka>there's so much detail that's way, way smaller than 1 pixel that one still needs to suggest is there in some way
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22:57<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/abteilwagen.png
22:57<Elukka>i swear it's impossible to get this right
22:57<Elukka>not really happy with either option
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23:03<kbrooks__>good night everyone sweet dreams :)
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23:52<pjpe>the level of nfo that 2cc uses is just
23:52<pjpe>just too much for me to comprehend
---Logclosed Sat Sep 10 00:00:50 2011