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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-10

---Logopened Sat Sep 10 00:00:50 2011
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03:24<Rubidium>good moaning andythenorth ;)
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04:00<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:11<andythenorth>bye :)
04:11*andythenorth has to go out-in-the-world today
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04:12<Hyronymus>oh, too slow
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04:30*Alberth waves hi
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04:55<Pinkbeast>Good morning.
04:59<@Terkhen>good morning everyone
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07:31-!-mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
07:37<dihedral>a Bjarni ??
07:49<PeanutHorst>... bengali?
07:49<PeanutHorst>(i think that word has one too many 'i's in it)
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08:27<csaba2>anyone has this problem with the latest openttd? In Win7, when at least one other application is minimized, then the OpenTTD window also starts minimized and cannot be restored until all the other windows are restored?
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08:39<b_jonas>csaba: I don't know, I'm not running ttd on windows. also see topic.
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09:26<Godde>Good day, gentlemen
09:27<Godde>Question: Can one enable "click-dragging" on the landscape tools found in the scenario editor?
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09:31<frosch123>no, they are inconsistent
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10:11<TrueBrain>it is weird seeing your own bot reporting information you never put in there :P
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10:16<dihedral>sorry TrueBrain that would have been me :-P
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11:03<Eddi|zuHause> <-- that looks totally like a screenshot from an FPS
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11:08<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: correction: like a screenshot from an FPS tech demo
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>but apparently it's a real photo of a real police uniform...
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11:52<@Alberth>germany has entered the matrix !
12:00<SpComb>the colors on the car are a little too dull
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12:02<TramOfDeath>One nameset NGRF seems to fail to download.
12:02<TramOfDeath>slovenian town names
12:03<@planetmaker>in what way 'fail to download'?
12:04<@planetmaker>what did you try? How?
12:04<frosch123>it is stuck at 9 of 34 KiB :)
12:05<TramOfDeath>it gets stuck when loading through Content Downloader
12:05<frosch123>the file is actually only 9 KiB (when downloaded from the website)
12:05<frosch123>so something is wrong with the size stores in bananas
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12:06<TramOfDeath>what the fly!
12:06<frosch123>TramOfDeath: download actually succeeds
12:06<frosch123>it is present after canceling
12:07<TramOfDeath>Then submitter must resubmit... probably full size stamped instead of compressed
12:07<frosch123>there are two versions of that grf on bananas
12:07<frosch123>one is listed as 9KiB, one as 34KiB
12:08<TramOfDeath>Then older one must be smashed
12:08<frosch123>yeah, two grfs with the same name and same version
12:08<frosch123>but different ids
12:08<frosch123>so there is a conflict in the storage
12:08<frosch123>TrueBrain: ^^ any idea?
12:08<frosch123>i guess we have to delete one from the db
12:09<TramOfDeath>Delete whichever is older
12:09<frosch123>they are from different authors though
12:09<frosch123>so they are not different versions of the same grf
12:09<frosch123>just two which share the name :p
12:09<TramOfDeath>!!!!!!! Give one double spaces in name!!!
12:10<TramOfDeath>Slovenian Name Set
12:10<@planetmaker>less ! do a marvelously better job
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12:12<TramOfDeath>All authors must have an authortag that's automatically added to the name - 6-letter tags like XBL gamertags.
12:13<frosch123>TramOfDeath: we already have a unique id
12:13<frosch123>but it is not included in the package name
12:13<frosch123>it makes no sense to name packages the same anyway
12:13<frosch123>bananas should just forbid that :p
12:14<TramOfDeath>Now the 34 one fails to dload and the 9 one is shown as "obtained"
12:16<frosch123>yes, you won't be able to downlaod the 34 one
12:16<frosch123>it is shadowed by the 9 one
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12:18<TramOfDeath>Give second one a .00 version
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12:19<TramOfDeath>or kill second one entirely, and send the author an email so the authors of two could possibly work on one set
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12:26*TramOfDeath is mad and almost ready to explode
12:27<Rubidium>frosch123: why would it be shadowed? It's a completely different NewGRF
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12:27<frosch123>Rubidium: the download file has the same name
12:28<frosch123>both are called Slovenian_Town_Names-1.0.tar.gz
12:28<frosch123>you can only access one of them via the website as well as ingame
12:28<Rubidium>ah bah...
12:28<TramOfDeath>Make 34kb one Slovenian_Town_Names-1.00.tar.gz
12:28<Rubidium>yay... yet another bananas bug
12:29<TramOfDeath>BANANA is also a code word for 8==>
12:29<frosch123>TramOfDeath: just download it from the forums, if you really need it so badly
12:29<TramOfDeath>No wonder the server fails...
12:30<Rubidium>nah, just the validation upon uploading fails horribly
12:30<Rubidium>it should prevent duplicate filenames
12:30<TramOfDeath>Not that I need it badly but that if it gets amids the list of dloads it shreds the dload
12:31<frosch123>TramOfDeath: let me guess, you downloaded everything, and now you are sad that you cannot get 100% :p
12:31<TramOfDeath>not everything, everything except maps and scens
12:31<frosch123>yup, completely unnecessary
12:32<frosch123>a waste of bandwidth
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12:32<frosch123>do you also go to the supermarket and get one of everything?
12:33<TramOfDeath>I'm not a shopper
12:33<TramOfDeath>to me, a shop is a putrid maze
12:34<TramOfDeath>Just give one a .00 version. OR! Make Bananas have author-assigned folders
12:35<frosch123>@mode +q tramofdeath
12:35-!-mode/#openttd [+q tramofdeath!*@*] by DorpsGek
12:35<@planetmaker>TramOfDeath: I ask you then please provide a fix to the content service code. You seem to know how it works
12:35<frosch123>stop muttering if you have no idea what you are talking about
12:37-!-TramOfDeath [1fb5ae76@] has quit [Quit: ANY filesys does its best to prevent such hiccups. For BananaS, ya better give users folders!]
12:37<frosch123>@mode -q tramofdeath
12:37-!-mode/#openttd [-q tramofdeath!*@*] by DorpsGek
12:38<@planetmaker>also that wouldn't stop the error. Just make it less likely
12:38<@planetmaker>--> aka no clue
12:38<frosch123>he was really mad that he could not get everything :p
12:38<frosch123>better add some billing :p
12:39<frosch123>1€ per downdload
12:39<frosch123>good point
12:39<frosch123>0.01€, 0.02, 0.04 :p
12:39<@planetmaker>fibonacci-like price-scaling. in cents or so
12:39<frosch123>gives 655.36€ on 16th :p
12:40<@planetmaker>then we finally can afford a whole datacentre ;-)
12:45-!-George [~George@] has joined #openttd
12:45<@planetmaker>heya George
12:47<@planetmaker> <-- did you see my suggestion in the cargo colour thread?
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>fibonacci is roughly 1.7^n
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>@calc (1+sqrt(5))/2
12:48<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1.61803398875
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>so more like 1.6^n
12:49<pugi>golden ratio :D
12:49<frosch123>@calc ((1+sqrt(5))/2)**16
12:49<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 2206.9995469
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's the one
12:49<frosch123>@calc ((1+sqrt(5))/2)**219 / 100
12:49<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 58653403043022312263554073106844728212586496
12:49<frosch123>still expensive to download all :p
12:50<pugi>@calc -1/(1+sqrt(5))/2 + 1
12:50<@DorpsGek>pugi: 0.845491502813
12:50<pugi>@calc -1/((1+sqrt(5))/2) + 1
12:50<@DorpsGek>pugi: 0.38196601125
12:50<pugi>wasn't it something like that?
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12:51<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**219-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**(-219))
12:51<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 5246119852635567077522623475390716824835325952-69437186044397471436092645310464i
12:51<pugi>@calc 1 + 1/((1+sqrt(5))/2)
12:51<@DorpsGek>pugi: 1.61803398875
12:51<pugi>still the golden ratio
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>something about that result doesn't look right
12:52<frosch123>making money with the golden ratio? makes sense :p
12:53<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: your parentheses are in the wrong places
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 1/sqrt(5)*(((1+sqrt(5))/2)**219-((1-sqrt(5))/2)**(219))
12:53<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 2623059926317818082240167956946549197580009472
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13:31<George>planetmaker: yes, I dud, but I had no time to think about it yet
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22916 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt croatian.txt slovak.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: croatian - 22 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: slovak - 35 changes by klingacik
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14:13<Elukka>Eddi|ZuHause: do you know if the typical prussian coach had the brakeman's cabin or if those were some kind of special coach they'd put at the end of a train or something?
14:14<Elukka>i'm seeing lots of variants with one and without one
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14:20<Elukka>ah, i guess they were pretty common
14:24<@Bjarni>I wonder a bit about the whole brakevan idea
14:24<@Bjarni>logically it would be better to just add the brakes to the actual cars
14:24<@Bjarni>and ideally all of them
14:26<@Bjarni>so why did some country save so much on brakes?
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14:28<Elukka>they didn't have continuous braking... so each car with brakes had to have a person to operate them
14:29<Elukka>and i suppose adding a brakeman's cab to every car would be a bit of expense plus they use a bit of space
14:32<EyeMWing>Brake vans (or whatever's at the end) would typically run with the brakes partially applied to keep slack out of the train.
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14:33<EyeMWing>Which is particularly important if your couplers allow a lot of slack.
14:34<@Bjarni>Passengertrains in Denmark didn't have either brakevan or brakeman's cabs. Instead they just had a brake on the end. No wasted space and nobody said all brakes had to be manned
14:34<Elukka>a brake in the end operated how?
14:35<@Bjarni>it would make sense to avoid slack. After all back when cars were connected by hook and chains without spindles, the slack were really bad
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14:36<Elukka>i'm not aware that we had either brake vans or brakemen either (though i'm not sure), but i think that had more to do that trains before continuous braking were pretty short
14:37<Elukka>for some reason the brits had brake vans and brakeless freight cars into the 60's
14:38<@Bjarni>That's around 100 years after Westinghouse invented the air brake
14:38<EyeMWing>There is no force in the universe more powerful than British conservatism.
14:38<@Bjarni>Denmark didn't use compressed air brakes until the Germans ordered those as a standard in 1939
14:38<@Bjarni>before that it was vacuum
14:40<@Bjarni>to begin with railroads were not too pleased with air brakes
14:40<@Bjarni>they were expensive and could they be trusted?
14:40<@Bjarni> <-- result of ice in the brakepipe
14:40<@Bjarni>however that's 1895, not 1960 :p
14:41<andythenorth>could we extend newgrf spec please? To allow/require industry tiles to overbuild houses
14:41<@Bjarni>you mean like clearing a house to make room for a factory?
14:42<Swissfan91>does anyone know how to make a building sprite place a tree from whichever tree set is loaded?
14:43<@Bjarni>you guys do realise you want to push newgrf specs quite a lot, don't you :p
14:44<EyeMWing>Why bother extending the spec if nobody wants to use it?
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14:45<andythenorth>EyeMWing: ok good point
14:45<andythenorth>let's not bother
14:45<EyeMWing>no, I'm pointing out that your constantly needing the spec pushed is a good thing.
14:46<EyeMWing>Heck, I've been doing this newgrf thing quietly for all of 2 weeks and I already have a small wishlist of requests.
14:47<@Bjarni>that's good
14:47<andythenorth>Bjarni: quite a bit of the extension is to avoid relying on overly-specific special flags
14:47<@Bjarni>new ideas is the first step to progress
14:49<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
14:49<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 2 minutes and 1 second ago: <Bjarni> new ideas is the first step to progress
14:50<@Bjarni>you even repeat the line I made a grammar error in >_<
14:51<Rubidium>pff... grammar?
14:51<Rubidium>isn't ideas just a new Apple product?
14:51<@Bjarni>ideas can be lots of stuff
14:52<@Bjarni>and they might not even be good
14:52<@Bjarni>such as OpenTTD 3D
14:52<Rubidium>likewise that windows can be used as both a plural as well as singular
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14:53<Elukka>3D... i think it's taken up until the last couple of years for 3D sequels to isometric 2D games to actually look good
14:53<Elukka>there was this uncomfortable period where everyone wanted 3D but it just didn't quite look as good
14:54<@Bjarni>I read a review of minecraft. It stated that the game could have been made 10 years ago, but back then everybody just wanted 3D and not gameplay
14:54<@Bjarni>everybody= people in charge of gaming industry
14:54<Elukka>minecraft has barely any gameplay though :P
14:55<Elukka>more like a pure sandbox
14:55<Elukka>anno 1404 made me realize that finally 3D games can look as good, and better, as the old isometric games
14:55<@Bjarni>it's not limiting the players ability to do what he wants to do
14:56<burtybob>Does anyone have any idea why I can't buy out companies in a game I saved from a multiplayer game? (Running 1.1.3-RC1) All settings are set to on in regards buying shares and I can buy up to and including 75%
14:56<@Bjarni>buying other companies are disabled in multiplayer since they causes desyncs
14:56<Rubidium>Bjarni: lies
14:56<@Bjarni>I guess that ban is saved in your game
14:56<@Bjarni>Rubidium: you changed that?
14:57<Elukka>a competitive mode could be kinda interesting
14:57<@Bjarni>ok, they used to cause desyncs then :p
14:57<Rubidium>Bjarni: shares are disabled because they make it very easy to cheat yourself into having loads of money very quickly
14:57<Elukka>i think the one good idea sid meier's railroads had was the fairly fast paced competitive multiplayer that felt much like an RTS skirmish
14:57<Elukka>i'd still play ttd mostly as a sandbox but i wouldn't mind an occasional competitive match
14:58<burtybob>So is there no way to buy out the old Player companies? I'd just have to bankrupt them?
14:58<frosch123>Bjarni seems to still live in the year 2008 or so :p
14:58<@Bjarni>man I feel old school. Reading "sid meier's railroads" made me think of Railroad Tycoon and didn't even realise until I read the word multiplayer :p
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14:59<@Bjarni>frosch123: wrong year :P
14:59<@Bjarni> <-- more like this one
15:00*Bjarni hides
15:00<Rubidium>burtybob: might be that buying the company would make you go over one of the vehicle limits?
15:00<frosch123>Bjarni: not available here
15:00<@Bjarni>so the video hides too
15:01<Rubidium>if (!c->is_ai) return cost; // We can not buy out a real company (temporarily). TODO: well, enable it obviously.
15:01<Rubidium>seems you can't take over non-AIs, unless they're bankrupting
15:02<@Bjarni>temporarily is how many years?
15:02<Rubidium>probably because of hostile takeovers in MP. The owner of the company that is to be taken over should be asked first
15:02<@planetmaker>well. It's there for gameplay reasons
15:02<Rubidium>Bjarni: since 0.3.4/5 ?
15:03<@planetmaker>I mean, I could otherwise annoy out of playing all other players when I'm the leading company
15:03<@planetmaker>just buy them... and 'good bye' (or good buy?)
15:03<@Bjarni>I seem to recall this was disabled because it caused desyncs. Then everybody agreed not to fix it because of gameplay issues.
15:04<@Bjarni>something like one guy could become much richer than everybody else and buy everybody (hostile takeover) and nobody else would have a chance
15:04<Rubidium>Bjarni: if it caused desyncs, then bankruptcy would as well... so it should've been fixed
15:05<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22917 /trunk/src/lang/croatian.txt: -Fix: translation failed to conform to rules of strgen
15:06<@Bjarni>maybe not. It depends on how the "lost player" client acts. If bankruptcy kicks him and hostile takeover doesn't.... or something like that.
15:06<@Bjarni>though it is likely that such an issue could have been fixed
15:06<@Bjarni>after all most of the code have been modified since back then
15:07<Rubidium>anyhow, either it's me or the process has been improved... but I'm not seeing many real desyncs these times. Most (if not all) of the recent ones seem to be theoretical rather than from a bug report
15:07<Elukka>what about a mode where the player who eliminates all other companies by hostile takeovers wins?
15:07<Elukka>would have to be played with gentlemen with all the exploits around ;P
15:08<@Bjarni>that would be interesting
15:08<Rubidium>well, first fix the "generate free money with shares" issue
15:08<@Bjarni>though I bet it would need to be a password protected server
15:08<frosch123>that would always result in a draw?
15:08<frosch123>unless you can force other players to sell their stocks
15:09<Rubidium>otherwise starting the 3 earliest companies would mean you've basically won that game
15:09<Elukka>you'd just buy out their stocks, they don't get a say
15:09<Elukka>yeah i think this would have to be a fairly fast paced game on a smallish map that's played with the same players in one or two sittings
15:09<frosch123>Elukka: imagine 3 companies who have bought 25% of each of them
15:09<@Bjarni>companies younger than 10 years shouldn't sell stocks
15:10<frosch123>noone can get more than 75%, because 25% are always owned by someone else
15:10<@Bjarni>not realistic, but could do for gameplay
15:10<Rubidium>Bjarni: it's already 5 or 6 years
15:10<Elukka>the whole idea is unrealistic anyhow :D
15:10<@Bjarni>all companies could end up with 4 owners owning 25% each and cause a draw
15:11<Elukka>i imagine you could still buy the portions of a company even if it's owned by someone else
15:11<@Bjarni><Elukka> the whole idea is unrealistic anyhow :D <--- the game is unrealistic.... live with it :P
15:11<Elukka>shit, how did it work...
15:11<Elukka>hey it was my idea i know
15:11<Elukka>sid meier's railroads did just this
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15:14<@Bjarni>Railroad Tycoon 2 had an interesting stock system
15:15<@Bjarni>where companies could get money by making more stocks
15:15<@Bjarni>*releasing more stocks
15:15<@Bjarni>meaning if you own 40% of a company and you didn't pay attention you could end up owning 24%
15:17<frosch123>it's called "increase of capital stock"
15:17<@Bjarni>buying stocks on margin is an interesting idea too
15:18<@Bjarni>though it could go really bad if you failed to meet a margin call :p
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15:18<frosch123>"increas of capital" is a normal thing to avoid take-overs
15:18<@Bjarni>then it autosold stocks until you had enough cash, though when stocks were sold, the price dropped, forcing you to sell even more
15:18<frosch123>just, stock holders limit it usually :p
15:18<@Bjarni>and from one day to the next you could lose everything
15:19*Bjarni should check what he writes before hitting enter
15:19<@Bjarni>you could lose everything in a single day
15:19<EyeMWing>I remember that system. It was hilarious.
15:20<EyeMWing>At one point I had my stock splitting every single month.
15:20<@Bjarni>kind of like real stock marked
15:20<@Bjarni>the margin thing was the thing which crashed Wall Street in 1929
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15:22<@Bjarni>thinking of RT2, I remember I once had a game where I should take x carloads to Alaska within a certain time. I had the train reach the destination station, but before it was at the stopping point, time ran out >_<
15:23<@Bjarni>had the train been one tile closer, then it would have made it
15:23<@planetmaker>Elukka: the main problem is the starting time. People really would need to join all at the same time. Or some would have an unfair advantage.
15:23<@planetmaker>or at least unpausing at the same time
15:23<@planetmaker>EyeMWing: btw, your project now exists
15:24<@planetmaker>you probably got an e-mail about that
15:24<EyeMWing>planetmaker: Just got it. Thanks.
15:25<andythenorth>railroad tycoon 3 rinsed rt2
15:25<andythenorth>it was seriously better
15:25*andythenorth wonders if RT3 works on current OS X 10.6 :(
15:25<andythenorth>open RT3!
15:26<Elukka>planetmaker yeah
15:27<@Bjarni>I once wondered about mixing RT and settlers. I thought it would be cool to make those small men build railroads and build use those to transport all those goods, which they took ages to carry around
15:27<@Bjarni>I'm not going to code that :p
15:28<@Bjarni>I remember when RT3 came out for mac. $50 and no demo. I seriously was unsure if I could run it "good enough" on my computer
15:28<Elukka>one of my dream games that i'm not actually going to make is transport tycoon in pseudo-realistic space
15:28<@Bjarni>which made me turn away from it >_<
15:29<Elukka>transfer orbits and launch windows might resemble railroads more than a bit actually
15:29<@Bjarni>sounds interestting....
15:29<@Bjarni>and unusual
15:29<@Bjarni>though unusual can be a good thing
15:30<Elukka>i think it's possible to make it easy on the player, though i imagine coding it would be a nightmare :D
15:31<@Bjarni>we should make a coding bot, which can take over for all the coding nightmares we don't want to do outselves
15:31<@Bjarni>now that would be cool
15:31<@Bjarni>dream project
15:31<Elukka>you'd have industries on planets and in orbit around them
15:31<Elukka>and space habitats and whatnot
15:31<@Bjarni>just one question: where do the steam trains get oxygen from in space?
15:32<Elukka>ha :P
15:32<Elukka>the way space works is you have orbits that take little fuel but take a long while and have limited launch windows
15:33<Elukka>these could be economical for big ore freighters and that sort of thing, so they'd essentially run on rails and on schedules
15:33<Elukka>but you can always use more fuel to get where you're going faster
15:33<@Bjarni>I fear I could spend ages coding that and then the gameplay turns out to suck :p
15:33<Elukka>suppose you want to transport fusion fuel from saturn to the lucrative earth market
15:33<@Bjarni>sounds nice though
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15:35<Elukka>you go to a route planner screen, give your ship orders to load helium-3 at saturn and to make a stop at your fuel depot to load up on fuel
15:36<Elukka>then click on earth, and select what kind of trajectory you want it to fly (this could simply be a slider, the less fuel the more time the more fuel the less time it takes), unload the helium-3 and visit another fuel depot to stock up on fuel again
15:36<Elukka>it'll do this automatically just like ttd trains unless you tell it to stop
15:37<Elukka>the challenge comes from gaining a competitive edge, perhaps by better spacecraft, a cheap source of fuel, maybe you'll build your own fuel depots or something
15:38<Elukka>ideally you of course want your ships to fly their routes fast but you've somehow got to secure the fuel for them and it might not be cheap everywhere, so burning too much cuts deep into your profit margins
15:39<@Bjarni>I once made my own board game. The game field was just a pieced of squared A4 paper. Each player had a starting location and then one could dig around. Dice could tell if mines were discovered
15:39<@Bjarni>the goal was to find as many mines and correct ones to produce stuff
15:40<@Bjarni>and get rich
15:40<@Bjarni>or make soldiers to steal the stuff from the other guys
15:40<Elukka>damn, now i want my space ttd again :(
15:40<Elukka>i imagine the aesthetics would look rather like this amazing video
15:40<__ln__>Bjarni on deck!
15:40<@Bjarni>I never finished making the rules and new stuff came up for each game
15:40<Elukka>in style
15:41<@Bjarni>come to think of it, I guess I could actually code that game. It wasn't that complex
15:41<@Bjarni>though I think it was more fun to play when I was 10 :p
15:42<@Bjarni>oh yeah, your "people" were dwarves and like Moria you could encounter stuff in the rocks, which were not meant to be released
15:43<@Bjarni>I recall one time my friend did that right in the beginning before he had means of defending himself.... he wasn't happy :p
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15:44*planetmaker feels like being in
15:45<@Bjarni>maybe you are
15:45<@Bjarni>in an alternative universe
15:46<@Bjarni>Elukka: I bet planetmaker could help you to make your game. After all he is experienced with planets and orbits ;)
15:47<Elukka>i have knowledge of planets and orbits, but zero knowledge of making a game :P
15:47<pjpe>it's easy
15:47<pjpe>you just use your keyboard
15:47<pjpe>and then boom game
15:48<Elukka>the extent of my usefulness is that i have an idea of how space and spacecraft work and can make 3D models and textures and sprites
15:48<@Bjarni>Elukka: making a game is easy. Just draw what you want and then pay some Asian to do it
15:49<@Bjarni>you will end up with your game, but it will act as spyware as well
15:50<@Bjarni>once some HDs were produced in China and they came preformatted.... somebody figured out the preformatted disks contained spyware
15:50<Elukka>i do have the occasional tendency to model spacecraft
15:50<@Bjarni>normal HDs you could buy in computer stores
15:51<@Bjarni>I once tried to build the cargo ship from Deuteros out of lego
15:51<Elukka>yeah i heard something about that
15:51<@Bjarni>went ok
15:51<@Bjarni>though I used all my blocks so I had nowhere to dock it :p
15:52<andythenorth>bricklink :P
15:53<@Bjarni>I think I built it 20 years ago
15:53<@Bjarni>and I have taken it apart afterwards
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16:11<Elukka>man i want the technology they have in CSI
16:11<Elukka>*takes pictures*
16:11<Elukka>computer goes *BLEEP BLEEP BLEEP building 3D object*
16:11<Elukka>5 seconds later, nice clean 3D model
16:11<Rubidium>yeah, that'd be lovely...
16:12<TrueBrain># hack FBI
16:12<TrueBrain>I keep trying it
16:12<TrueBrain>one day, I promise, it will work!
16:14<Rubidium>TrueBrain: don't you mean @hack FBI? ;)
16:16<Elukka>i bet they would alos love to have that technology :P
16:17<pjpe>you mean like a laser scanner?
16:17<Elukka>like a laser scanner except without it taking hours to scan and dozens of hour to process afterwards
16:17<@Terkhen>a laser scanner takes a lot of time, yup
16:17<Elukka>it just makes a point cloud
16:18<@Terkhen>joining the different meshes is a PITA
16:18<@Terkhen>that's scary, the one I used automatically triangulated the mesh :P
16:19<Elukka>haven't heard that they could actually make a solid surface mesh
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>can't you do that on-the-fly? you have a locality condition based on the order the points were scanned#
16:21<@Terkhen>with this one the mesh cames triangulated already from the machine itself; it also comes with colour for each point
16:21<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's what the model I used does
16:21<@Terkhen>it just takes a squared mesh and triangulates each square of points
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16:43<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: are the grey prussian coaches just kinda medium grey like the roofs? i've never seen any models or pictures of any
16:46<Elukka>oh, that color
16:46<Elukka>wonder why nobody seems to make models of grey compartment coaches..
16:46<Elukka>hm. so fairly light colored i gues
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16:48<Swissfan91>you're a real regular on here, aren't you Elukka :)
16:48<Elukka>came to ask a question, stayed to draw trains
16:49<V453000>good move :D
16:50<JVassie>Terkhen: can NML handle stations?
16:50<JVassie>cant remember :p
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so yet
16:50<JVassie>an excuse for me not coding BMSS yet then :p
16:51<@Terkhen>learn python instead and help with nml development :P
16:51<Swissfan91>if I can 'learn' to draw, jvassie, you can code that set :P
16:52<JVassie>got too much on my plate *whistles*
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16:53<JVassie>9-6 job, C++ games dev diploma, writing my own MMO
16:56<@Terkhen>indeed :P
16:56<JVassie>nfo stations are a barrel of laughs ive heard too
16:58<Elukka>swissfan you can learn to draw just by drawing a bit :P
16:58*Terkhen only managed to learn how to recolour and copy paste stuff
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17:03<Elukka>i think everyone can learn to draw if they put enough effort to it
17:03<Elukka>similarly even i could learn to code :P
17:03<@planetmaker>:-) definitely true. At least to some extent
17:05<JVassie>think it was PM who gave me some sampel station code
17:05<JVassie>took me ages just to get copy paste working :/
17:05<@planetmaker>I don't think so.
17:05<@planetmaker>nfo stations are a mystery to me
17:05<@planetmaker>probably y exo
17:10<@Yexo>just spell it out, I don't care about the highlight :)
17:15<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: is it both ends of the templates that overlap by 1 px?
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, one overlaps with the other, so if you want a gap, you must make both transparent
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise, both should be same colour, or you get weird effects
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>occasonally one is drawn over the other...
17:17<Elukka>is it the vertical column or the horizontal row that overlaps in the views between 45 degree and 90 degree diagonal?
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's the dark green line in any view
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. the line in the front and back of the vehicle
17:40<@Terkhen>good night
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18:18<__ln__>Bjarni: There has been some recent speculation here that OpenTTD has existed for MacOS classic, but that's definitely not true, right?
18:19<Swissfan91>which colours can I NOT use in the win palette?
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>you can use all colours, but they may have effects you don't want
18:21<Swissfan91>I see..
18:22<Elukka>use everything labeled normal
18:22<Elukka>and company colors if you want company colors
18:22<Swissfan91>as I'm drawing buildings.. I must still avoid the company colours then?
18:23<Elukka>no idea!
18:23<@planetmaker>depends on the intended effect(s)
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18:26<@planetmaker> or
18:26<@planetmaker>allow to specify colour
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>afair company colours are just normal colours unless you give a flag to recolour it
18:27<Elukka>hmm this coach looks so boring when it's grey
18:27<Elukka>i guess it'll look more interesting mixed in with other colors
18:28<Swissfan91>thank you guys.
18:28<@Bjarni><__ln__> Bjarni: There has been some recent speculation here that OpenTTD has existed for MacOS classic, but that's definitely not true, right? <-- "oru-dge" (highlight avoidance) once looked at it but the last I heard was that he had bought the compiler CD and he was unsure if he really wanted to do it.
18:28<@planetmaker>I don't think so, Eddi|zuHause. At least I don't see such flag anywhere
18:29<__ln__>Ammler: 01:28 <@Bjarni> <__ln__> Bjarni: There has been some recent speculation here that OpenTTD has existed for MacOS classic, but that's definitely not true, right? <-- "oru-dge" (highlight avoidance) once looked at it but the last I heard was that he had bought the compiler CD and he was unsure if he really wanted to do it.
18:29<@Bjarni>I never even considered trying to port OpenTTD to classic. OSX can use the makefile. Classic can't, which means it would be a huge amount of work, both to make in the first place and then maintain
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18:30<Swissfan91>unfortunately, the palette I have doesn't really resemble the one on that wiki page. I have the tiny one.
18:30<__ln__>And only a very limited set of classic-capable macs are powerful enough to run it anyway.
18:31<@Bjarni>G4 Quicksilver can, but then again you can just install OSX 10.4 on it
18:31<@Bjarni>honestly I don't care for classic anymore
18:33<@Bjarni>well in a way I do, but as an extra like UAE is extra to relive the Amiga days
18:33<@Bjarni>nobody really use classic today without also having OSX or windows
18:33<__ln__>probably true
18:34*Bjarni imagines somebody starting to search for a classic user in Mexico just to disproof that statement
18:35<@Bjarni>I'm not even sure if classic has a browser, which is able to download the game. SF scripts could fail on such old browsers
18:35<@Bjarni>I think it was explorer 5 and netscape 3 or something like that
18:35<__ln__>Bjarni: have i shown you this link:
18:35<@Bjarni>now you have
18:36<@Bjarni>oh yeah
18:36<@Bjarni>I have seen it before
18:37<@Bjarni>the iMac had a 233 MHz G3
18:37<@Bjarni>too slow for OpenTTD
18:37<@Bjarni>I think it could run OSX 10.2, but not 10.3
18:39<@Bjarni> <--- I think the top one has a 300 MHz G3, which is able to run OSX 10.3. Technically that one can run OpenTTD
18:39<@Bjarni>I remember I knew somebody who had that one.... in 1999
18:40<@Bjarni>(if it is the one I'm thinking of)
18:47<Elukka>Eddi|ZuHause: what do you think?
18:47<@Bjarni>CBS news states that Steve Jobs has died and now they say sorry, it was a mistake. He is alive
18:48<@Bjarni>how can anybody state publicly that a famous person is dead when they aren't?
18:48<@Bjarni>did somebody shortsell Apple stocks or something?
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>it's investigative journalism 2.0
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>somebody picks up a random twitter message and distributes it as news
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>fact checking is "outsourced" :)
18:50<Elukka>otherwise someone else might get the scoop first!
18:50<pjpe>the news does that all the time
18:50<pjpe>google it
18:50<@Bjarni>A TV channel in Denmark wrote on their homepage that the prime minister had set a date for the next election.... the problem was that he didn't
18:50<@Bjarni>now he has.... on a different date
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, all the<famousperson> websites are there for a reason :p
18:50<pjpe>a decent amount just seem to be started by someone on twitter
18:51<__ln__>one variant of that is that a reporter creates an "article" (i.e. a list of quotes) based on user comments of some previous article.
18:51<Eddi|zuHause>Karl Ranseier is dead...
18:51<@Bjarni>but Elvis lives....
18:52<pjpe>rick james is dead
18:52<pjpe>who woulda known
18:52<Eddi|zuHause>who is rick games?
18:52<pjpe>rick james
18:52<pjpe>popular musician from the 80's
18:52<pjpe>had some good hits
18:52<pjpe>mary janes
18:52<pjpe>you and i
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>"Karl Ranseier is dead" was a recurring joke in the german version of "Saturday Night Live"
18:53<@Bjarni>can you really be named "Games" as last name?
18:53<pjpe>there was a german version?
18:53<pjpe>that sounds
18:53<Elukka>bjarni: elvis lives in NASA's nuclear moonbase
18:53<pjpe>i've gotta say
18:53<@Bjarni>that would make you able to call your son "Mario Games"
18:53<pjpe>you can call children anything you want
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>where they then read a made up obituary like "the least successful journalist in the world died while trying to write an article about journalism"
18:54<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: is that next to hitler's moon base?
18:54<__ln__>hitler is also dead!
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18:54<Eddi|zuHause>pjpe: it was pretty popular back then
18:54<@Bjarni>pjpe: no. It's not allowed to call boys "Christophpher". Some woman got really upset about that a few years ago :p
18:55<Elukka>no, hitler is also on the moon
18:55<pjpe>maybe in europe
18:55<__ln__>@seen hitler
18:55<@DorpsGek>__ln__: I have not seen hitler.
18:55<pjpe>not in north america
18:55<Elukka>it is quite well known
18:55<pjpe>frank zappa called his children
18:55<pjpe>moon unit
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>germany used to have quite strict laws about what you may name a child
18:56<pjpe>moon unit zappa, dweezil zappa, ahmet zappa and diva zappa
18:56<pjpe>and these are real names
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>don't know if they have been loosened a bit
18:56<pjpe>if you wanted to call your child fuckshitpisscunt you probably could
18:56<pjpe>might be considered child abuse
18:57<Elukka>diva zappa's full name is diva thin muffin pigeen zappa
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>"Wollen Sie ihr Kind wirklich Claire nennen, Frau Grube?"
18:58<@Bjarni>"Claire Grube"... what am I missing here?
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: "Klärgrube" is a sewer treatment plant
18:59<pjpe>can you legally change your name in germany
18:59<pjpe>and switzerland
18:59<pjpe>or are you stuck with it forever
18:59<Elukka>udo kier is the best actor at describing evil plans
18:59<@Bjarni>you can always marry to get a new one :P
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>pjpe: dunno, never knew anybody who did that. but you can choose an "artist name"
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>it will be written into your ID card as legal name
19:00<pjpe>if i wanted to i could go down to the courthouse and become
19:00<pjpe>max power
19:00<pjpe>or seven costanza
19:00<pjpe>or anything i so desire!
19:01<@Bjarni>Denmark allows namechange and as a result some voodoo bogus people get paid to tell people what they should call themselves to fit with their stars
19:01<@Bjarni>and it's always something silly they come up with
19:01<pjpe>i wonder if i'd keep my old name on my second passport though
19:01<pjpe>man that gets fucked up
19:01<@Bjarni>and people change their names to increase the chance of winning the lotto or something
19:02<__ln__>"Danger Powers?" - "No, no, Danger is my middle name."
19:02<@Bjarni>pjpe: are you allowed to change your name to Maria?
19:02<pjpe>i don't see why not
19:03<@Bjarni>some guy in the midwest changed his name to Santa Claus and demanded all the mail sent to his name. US postal service refused because the address is "North Pole", not his state
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>the german law says your primrary surname must indicate your gender
19:04<@Bjarni>Picasso was also named Maria
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>so "Maria" can only be a secondary name (that actually is quite popular)
19:04<pjpe>i bet it says you have to separate your trash in to different bins too
19:04<pjpe>and drive on the right side of the road
19:04<pjpe>how awful
19:05<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think separating trash is an actual law :p
19:05<pjpe>i thought you could get fined for not recycling properly
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19:05<Eddi|zuHause>you can get fined if there is unrecycleable stuff in the recycle bin
19:05<@Bjarni>Some guy I know was outside at 4 am and saw the garbage truck and the guys collecting. They put all the trash together in the truck... so much for sorting your garbage
19:06<@Bjarni>he got upset that they did that after he spent time sorting
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>but nothing forbids you from throwing everything in the "normal" bin
19:06<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: did you see the sprite? :P
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19:06<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: yes, not entire sure about it yet
19:06<Elukka>me neither
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: something else, i recommended to oberhümer to include the template length you based your sprites on in the filename, you should do that, too
19:07<Elukka>might do some freight car in the meantime to see if something occurs to me
19:07<Elukka>well that's easy enough
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19:09<@planetmaker>that's actually a _very_ helpful suggestion when coding :-)
19:10<Elukka>that's how it looks like green - of course it's not the exact right coach for that but close enough to see how green coaches would look like
19:11<@planetmaker>good night
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19:15<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: some wagons should probably get a braker's cabin at the end
19:16<Elukka>right now i'm concerned with getting the general look and detailing right as i can always make different variations later
19:16<Elukka>the other angles i just do by copypasting and then adjusting the lighting to fit
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>i think the roof should get slightly brown-ish grey
19:24<Elukka>i think they're grey, they just get sooty easily from all the steam
19:25<Elukka>or is that just to differentiate it a bit from the grey walls?
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>according to the PDF, colour was brown-ish grey at first, and later nearly white
19:28<Elukka>unfortunately my german is almost nonexistent :D
19:28<Elukka>do you think the roof brightness is about right?
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19:29<Eddi|zuHause>4th class compartment wagons appeared pretty late
19:29<Elukka>ah, so almost white
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>because originally the 3-axle compartment wagons were intended for express usage, which usually didn't have 4th class.
19:31<Elukka>then almost white sounds more appropriate than brownish grey, no?
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i think so
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19:33<Eddi|zuHause>3rd class is wooden benches, and 4th class originallly no benches at all, later benches along the wall
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19:35<Eddi|zuHause>in DRG times, 4th class was abolished
19:37<Elukka>green looks weird with the almost white roof, grey looks better with it
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19:46<Eddi|zuHause>hm looks strange. and the view on the right might be too narrow
19:47<Elukka>i think the roof might actually look better were it brownish
19:49<Elukka>would add some much needed color
19:49<Elukka>from an aesthetic standpoint, dunno about accuracy
19:56<Elukka>on the right view.. i was thinking it would overlap if it were wider
19:56<Elukka>it's 1px off the dark green line on the right side
20:16<Eddi|zuHause>na, one pixel off the roof
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20:17<Eddi|zuHause>the line along the front of the wagon
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20:18<Elukka>at which angle ddo i need to start taking a horizontal line off instead of a vertical one
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>the \ view should remove both
20:19<Eddi|zuHause>and the others probably one
20:20<Elukka>hmm so then the diagonal should be one more pixel shorter...
20:21<Elukka>but then it won't be exactly half the length of the side view anymore
20:21<Eddi|zuHause>we may need to do furter adjustments once we get this into the game
20:22<Elukka>it'd be nice to see how it'd look in game
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20:23<Elukka>i wish ttdviewer allowed you to assemble consists :P
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20:32<Eddi|zuHause>there are a few things left to code, before we can look at it ingame, and i'm not sure whether i can get to that the next week(s)
20:35<Elukka>i see
20:35<Elukka>well, i'll keep drawing some sprites and hope they won't be too broken
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 11 00:00:54 2011