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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-12

---Logopened Mon Sep 12 00:00:57 2011
00:16<Elukka>i lost a game of openttd
00:16<Elukka>there's always a first i guess
00:16<Elukka>starting year 1920, 2cc, YACD, they're evil
00:16<Elukka>in a good way
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00:34<pjpe>what makes the cost of converting rail?
00:34<pjpe>is it just the cost of laying the new type of rail?
00:35<pjpe>or is it new cost - old track cost
00:37<Elukka>240 tonnes of wood en route to cottbus sawmill, wood trucks sitting in station, not loading...
00:38<Elukka>seems like every time i add a vehicle to a route in YACD it kinda breaks
00:39<pjpe>in cargodist you sometimes have to wait a while for goods to get loaded on to trains
00:39<pjpe>i'm guessing it's something about having destinations
00:39<Elukka>i'm having some trucks come and load and go just fine, yet others just don't do anything
00:40<Elukka>oh, they do, they just take months to start loading... then months to get to 50%, then months to get to 100
00:40<Elukka>maybe it doesn't like the fast forward button
00:51<Elukka>that indeed seems to have been it
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01:05<Elukka>hm. or not. it just seems to take a lot of time for transport to work again after any changes to the network
01:13<Elukka>George: is there any downside to refitting all buses to city transport in LV4?
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01:43<George>Elukka: the only profit for refitting is changing a capacity
01:43<George>LV4 is done, and no more work is intended
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01:44<George>In LV5 higher capacity would mean slower speed and higher running costs
01:46<Elukka>i see
01:46<Elukka>that would make sense
01:47<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: prussian compartment coaches seemed to vary quite a bit in length, do we want them all to be one length or vary?
01:47<Elukka>i mean, all the 3 axle ones for example
01:50<EyeMWing>3-axle coaches sound like they'd be great fun in curves.
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01:50<Elukka>the center axle moved a bit sideways
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01:51<EyeMWing>Yay for pre-Germany German engineering complexity.
01:52<Elukka>i seem to remember reading something about them removing the center axle of some coaches to no great loss in performance...
01:52<Elukka>i don't really understand why they had 3 axles in the first place, or why the rebuilt wagons kept them
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03:22<appe>prussian sounds like dries up plums.
03:22<appe>dried*
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03:50<@Terkhen>good morning
03:51<Markk>Morning.
03:51<@planetmaker>moin
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04:19<EyeMWing>Is the stop/start callback called only in depot, or when out on the line?
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04:22<@planetmaker>always
04:22<@planetmaker>iirc
04:23<@planetmaker>though thad'd be evil...
04:24<EyeMWing>evil makes a good, clean-cut test case.
04:25<EyeMWing>It doesn't seem to, though. Or at least I couldn't make it work.
04:25<EyeMWing>well...
04:25<EyeMWing>No
04:25<EyeMWing>That's not quite right
04:28<EyeMWing>yeah, I'm probably wrong. Was testing with a number that's out of range.
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04:50<@planetmaker>btw, EyeMWing, e ddi is right when he says that 'regearing cargo is a failed idea'
04:50<@planetmaker>it gives problems in all kind of constellations.
04:50<@planetmaker>Vehicle sets simply should not mess with cargos. There's enough types of newgrfs which do that
04:51<@planetmaker>pikka also abandoned the idea of that cargo (and he introduced it iirc)
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05:02<EyeMWing>Yeah. I've got a generally workable solution for the immediate future.
05:03<EyeMWing>Just use passengers and force capacity to 0 in the callback.
05:06<EyeMWing>Results in some ugly UI, but it's fixable.
05:06<b_jonas>you're implementing the bus from one of those films? if it stops, everyone dies?
05:07<EyeMWing>A train that won't start facing uphill, actually.
05:09<b_jonas>(like http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=643 )
05:09<b_jonas>EyeMWing: eww, that's evil
05:09<b_jonas>I mean, stations are always flat
05:09<b_jonas>so that happens only at signals, right?
05:10<dihedral>greetings
05:11<EyeMWing>Nah, it only gets called when you hit the start/stop button. And it's a patch test anyway, not for actual play.
05:11<b_jonas>ah
05:11<b_jonas>so it's not called when the train stops for traffic reasons?
05:13<EyeMWing>As far as I'm aware, anyway.
05:13<EyeMWing>I didn't exactly build any signals to test with.
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05:46<TrueBrain>NOTICE: OpenTTD Web Services will be temporary unreachable due to a kernel upgrade on the gateway.
05:47<dihedral>\o/
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05:48<_1009>Development question, is it possible to remove widgets / re-add widgets in certain positions on the fly? (AI Debug GUI to add a Stop AI button)
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>_1009: widgets can be hidden and unhidden
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>_1009: not sure what you _actually_ want to know
05:50<_1009>Eddi|zuHause: I've only been able to find Disabled / Enabled
05:50<_1009>Well, I'm trying to create a cheat which stops an AI, so there is a button in the cheat GUI which enables you to stop an AI. If that one is enabled I want to show a button in the AI Debug GUI which says "Stop this AI"
05:51<@Yexo>_1009: the "break on" widget in the AI debug window are only shown when ai_developer_tools is on
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>what about the stopai console command?
05:51<_1009>Eddi|zuHause: that's what I'm trying to do in a GUI interface :)
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, then follow what yexo does. no need for a cheat
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>s/does/says/
05:51<@Yexo>a cheat might be good in this case
05:52<_1009>Hm, I'm going to try to find the "break on"-widget then. Thanks :)
05:53<TrueBrain>all OpenTTD Web Services should be back; please let me know if there are any problems
05:54<@peter1138>yeah, there's a problem
05:55<@peter1138>i've not written road types/multistop docks/better landscapes/etc yet ;(
05:55<@planetmaker>yeah :-(
05:55<@planetmaker>we miss your patches
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05:56<_1009>Is there some documentation available as to what planes do in GUIs? I see that that is the thing that is determining whether the Break On-button gets in or not
05:58<@planetmaker>the source is the best documentation you can get
05:58<@planetmaker>probably also the only one
05:58<@planetmaker>except the doxygen for the widget functions
05:58<_1009>Okido
06:30<_1009>Yexo, your hint about the "break on" widget has helped me a great deal, I got the hiding thing to work now, cheers :)
06:31<@Yexo>you're welcome :)
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06:55<SpComb>michi_cc's AAAA's not working
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07:20<_1009>I got everything of the Stop AI cheat working except redrawing the Window when the AI Cheat is pressed when the Window is still open... you have to re-open it to see the "Stop AI" button. Would this have to be added in OnPaint(){}? And if so, in what way? (I can't get it to work there)
07:25<@planetmaker>that works via invalidation by window class
07:26<@planetmaker>i.e. the cheat window would need to invalidate that AI window then
07:26<@planetmaker>or a change to that cheat rather
07:27<@planetmaker>SetWindowClassesDirty(WC_XXX) would need to be called there
07:27<@planetmaker>where WC_XXX is the window class of the AI window you're dealing with
07:28<_1009>Ah, great. So, the Change Production Cheat invalidates the Industry GUI?
07:28<@planetmaker>and there is in the cheat window when that cheat is toggled
07:28<@planetmaker>yes
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07:28<_1009>Great, great, then I should have enough examples
07:28<@planetmaker>maybe you can also invalidate a single window, and not by class...
07:28<@planetmaker>dunno right now :-)
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07:29<@planetmaker>maybe InvalidateWindowData(WC_XXX) is sufficient.
07:30<_1009>I used InvalidateWindowClassesData(WC_AI_DEBUG); at the moment (taken from the Production cheat)
07:31<_1009>I'll be back later and then I'll be finishing this thing @.@
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09:04<_1009>Hm, I don´t think I´ll be able to complete that cheat today. The invalidation message arrives at the AI GUI, but nothing is redrawn.
09:05<@planetmaker>Maybe it misses the method OnInvalidate() which ReInit() s the window
09:05<_1009>It has OnInvalidate() where much other stuff happens, I haven´t seen ReInit() in it though
09:06<_1009>I thought marking the required widgets as dirty would be enough
09:08<_1009>Hah... XD I should´ve said this earlier, because that was all that was required, ReInit. Cheers. :)
09:09<@planetmaker>:-)
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09:13<_1009>Alright... great. So what should I do now, update my version to trunk again, make a patch and post it somewhere on the forums? What´s an appropriate approach?
09:13<@Belugas>hi
09:13<@peter1138>hi
09:16<@Yexo>update to latest trunk, create a patch and post it on bugs.openttd.org
09:17<@Yexo>posting to the forums is more useful if you want a lot of feedback from users, but that doesn't seem to be the case here
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09:17<_1009>Alright, thanks.
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09:42<_1009>Okido, posted it. Yay. :3
09:49<@Yexo>_1009: your diff is revered, that makes it a bit harder to read
09:49<@Yexo>CHT_STOP_AI, ///< Stop an AI. <- uses spaced for aligning the comment, not tabs
09:50<_1009>Okay, I will
09:51<_1009>What do you mean by revered? Is it caused by me using git or pressing the wrong buttons?
09:51<@planetmaker>reversed probably
09:51<@Yexo>the patch file has - in front of the lines you added and + for lines you removed instead of the other way around
09:51<@Yexo>it has nothing to do with git in itself
09:52<@Yexo>but you probably made diff between "working copy and tip" instead of between "tip and working copy" or something like that
09:53<@Yexo>I don't see the use for the variable show_stop_ai, you could as well use the result from isAIStopable() directly (you assign it twice and only use it directly after assignment)
09:54<@Yexo>also if you make stop_ai a cheat, perhaps the same should be done for "reload_ai"?
09:54<@Yexo>maybe with the exception that if an AI crashed you can reload it always
09:55<@Yexo>so enable the "reload_ai" button when one of these is true: "AI has crashed", "stop ai cheat is on", "ai_developer_tools is on"
09:55<@Yexo>and never hide that one, just disable it
09:56<@planetmaker>well... developer stuff is usually hidden when the developer tools are off
09:56<@Yexo>yes, but "reload_ai" is very valid for normal users when an AI crashes
09:56<@planetmaker>yes. And stop_ai?
09:57<@planetmaker>I agree with reload_ai
09:57<@Yexo>you mean "stop_ai" as alternative for "reload_ai" when an AI crashes?
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>why would a normal user need reload_ai? asides from AIs better not crashing, the game starts a new AI on that slot later automatically
09:58<@Yexo>hmm, true
09:58<@Yexo>drop the "AI has crashed" requirement then and hide it instead of disabling it
09:59<@planetmaker>hm... a new AI is not started automatically
09:59<@planetmaker>only if the company is removed after an AI crash
09:59<@planetmaker>hm... or is it restarted automatically with the same company... hm...
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i thought it removes the company automatically, just like going bankrupt
10:00<@Yexo>eddi: if the AI has build a profitable company it will take quite a long time for it to go bankrupt (if ever)
10:00<@Yexo>no, the same AI is started if you save/load the game, or a random one (or the same, depending on settings) is started after the company has gone bankrupt
10:01<@Yexo>however the save/load workaround might be good enough for normal users, in addition to the cheat
10:01<_1009>Yexo, I see what I did wrong, I indeed did tip / working copy the wrong way around.
10:01<@Yexo>_1009: you can just leave out those arguments (just do "git diff")
10:01<_1009>And I agree that the variable is not useful. Do you want me to change it or is it changed already?
10:01<Markk>Is there any AI that doesn't build tracks with 90 degrees turns?
10:01<@Yexo>I haven't done anything, it's your diff
10:01<_1009>Okido
10:02<@Yexo>Markk: AdmiralAI :)
10:02<Markk>Neat, I'll check it out. :)
10:02<Markk>Cheers.
10:02<b_jonas>well, technically, there are AIs that don't build rail at all
10:02<@Yexo>Markk: there might be others, I don't know. That one is mine so I'm sure it doesn't
10:02<@planetmaker>I'd have bet other AIs who build rail also work without 90°
10:02<_1009>I had trouble with the giff thing since I hadn´t done that before, that causes the weirdness.
10:02<@Yexo>planetmaker: not all of them
10:03<@planetmaker>not all, for sure
10:03<b_jonas>sometimes it's worth to build a 90 deg turn, like in places where the train is slowed down by some other factor anyway, or in tracks you want trains to avoid
10:04<@Yexo>I always play with 90 deg turns disabled
10:04<Pinkbeast>God, yes, they look so horrible.
10:05<b_jonas>can a train intersect itself in openttd without crashing?
10:05<Pinkbeast>jonas> Yes, last I tried it
10:05<_1009>SimpleAI doesn´t build 90 deg turns either I think
10:05<b_jonas>thanks
10:05<Pinkbeast>I ain't promising that hasn't been fixed since, mind.
10:06<Markk>Yexo: Okey :)
10:08<@Yexo>b_jonas: yes, it can. It takes too much time to check if a train intersects with itself so those cases are deliberately ignored
10:10<@Belugas>in fact, iirc, it's on the known bugs section of the read me
10:10<b_jonas>I guess long trains make it especially difficult
10:12<@Yexo>http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/trunk/known-bugs.txt#L329
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10:21<@Yexo>CHT_STOP_AI, ///< Stop an AI <- still using tabs instead of spaces
10:22<@Yexo>+ {SLE_BOOL, STR_CHEAT_STOP_AI, <- same for that line
10:22<@Yexo>the latter will also need some sort of savegame conversion code
10:26<_1009>I thought SLE_BOOL was enough for savegame conversion already?
10:27<@Yexo>that line is only for the gui
10:27<_1009>Alright, let me change the tabs anyway (I guess I forgot)
10:27<@Yexo>I think the only thing needed is to increase the savegame version by one (saveload/saveload.cpp) and to initialize the new cheat to zero for old savegames (saveload/afterload.cpp)
10:28<@Yexo>the latter can alternatively be done in saveload/cheat_sl.cpp (in Load_CHTS)
10:31<_1009>Ah, I see. Heh, I didn´t keep that into account at all. :)
10:34<@planetmaker>common oversight :-)
10:34<@planetmaker>Welcome to the world of backward compatibility ;-)
10:35<_1009>Haha, yea, I´m glad I get to experience that before I break some important stuff :)
10:39<_1009>Loading a before-my-patch game though works completely fine... or can that be version-dependent/
10:46<__ln__>_1009: please use the correct apostrophe character.
10:47<_1009>I wish I could easily, but I am currently using Pidgin and have not found yet how to. =<
10:48<__ln__>it's on the keyboard.
10:49<_1009>I am pressing it ´´´´
10:49<__ln__>that's the wrong button. now try the one next to the return (enter) key.
10:49<_1009>;-)
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10:50<_1009>Look. Next to my 1: `. Next to my return: ´.
10:51<__ln__>your keyboard is ill and needs to see a doctor.
10:51<@planetmaker>__ln__, assumes a keyboard layout which you probably don't have ;-)
10:51<_1009>It´s not my keyboard, it´s this Pidgin text window
10:51<_1009>Wait
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10:51<@Yexo>wrong key? :p
10:51<@planetmaker>probably :-P
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10:51<_1009>In Chatzilla it's fine.
10:51<@planetmaker>is it?
10:51<@planetmaker>then it's the wrong programme ;-)
10:52<_1009>I know
10:52<_1009>I haven't been able to find it yet.
10:52<TWerkhoven>what if you try alt-39 ?
10:53<@planetmaker>sounds very convenient way just to type "'"
10:53<TWerkhoven>but if it works, maybe he can bind a key to do just that in pidgin
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10:55<_1009-C>alt-39 looks to come out empty
10:55<_1009-C>I'll just try connecting with Chatzilla until I know what the problem is :<
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10:56*planetmaker feels that the problem was just totally exagerated
10:56*_1009-C shrugs
10:57<_1009-C>I wouldn't like to piss off members that don't have those weird apostrophes installed on their computer
10:58<_1009-C>Anyway planetmaker, to me it doesn't seem like the new cheat can cause any issues with older saves... can you tell me why it can? And if it can, how do I circumvent it? I can add something to afterload.cpp but to me it's not clear /what/ to add
10:58<@planetmaker>it's not apostrophs, it's accents ;-)
10:59<_1009-C>Eh. Right.
10:59<@planetmaker>_1009-C, the old savegames have a different cheat structure stored which misses the new variable. And it should be initialized to 'not used' when such savegame is loaded
11:00<_1009-C>But it is not used by default, right?
11:00<_1009-C>I mean, that's what happens when I load an old game for example
11:00<@planetmaker>so... what happens when I used it and then load an old savegame?
11:00<_1009-C>Nothing. It just works, it's off and unused.
11:01<_1009-C>Right?
11:01<_1009-C>o_O
11:01<_1009-C>I tested that before, I thought. let me try it again.
11:03<_1009-C>Yea, that works without a problem.
11:04<@Yexo>ah, InitializeGame already sets every cheat to 0
11:04<@Yexo>so no conversion code needed in this case
11:04<_1009-C>So this is rather an exception than a usual thing?
11:05<@Yexo>yes
11:05<@Yexo>if you create a savegame with your patch applied and try to load it in yesterdays nightly it won't load but instead say "invalid savegame"
11:05<@Yexo>by increasing the savegame version you'd get it to report "savegame made with newer version" instead
11:05<_1009-C>Hm, I see.
11:06<_1009-C>So, to wrap up, it's not needed to increase the savegame version because InitializeGame already sets everything to 0 at first?
11:07<@planetmaker>No :-). But you need to not take special care of it when loading old savegames
11:07<@planetmaker>i.e. conversion code is not needed. Savegame bunp is.
11:08<_1009-C>OK.
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11:15<__ln__>http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/kcx1t/foreigners_in_america_what_is_the_most_insane/
11:24<@peter1138>heh
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>"what language do you speak [in England]?" <-- the correct answer is: some mixture between french and german
11:29<@planetmaker>is that then a kind of endless circle if you define Dutch as a mixture betwwen German and English?
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>nah, dutch is english when you leave out some of the french parts ;)
11:33<@planetmaker>neither English nor French are good at the ch-sounds ;-)
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>(of course there are feedback loops between languages)
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>"I just got back to the US from studying in London for a year. Someone asked me if I was now fluent in french. How are you supposed to respond to that?" - "Non."
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12:04<MNIM>Eddi: I beg to differ.
12:05<MNIM>Dutch is *far* more resemblant to German than it is to English
12:07<Rubidium>isn't English more from Frisian than Dutch (back in the days at least)
12:07<TWerkhoven>yup
12:08<MNIM>neither.
12:08<MNIM>Actually
12:08<TWerkhoven>original frisian rather than the current watered down stuff
12:08<MNIM>English is more resembling to french and latin than it is to any germanic language
12:09<Rubidium>in any case, they messed up words ;)
12:09<MNIM>mostly because England and France have both been parts of eachother on multiple occasions before, while the Netherlands have only been occupied by Englishmen once during the Napoleonic wars.
12:10<MNIM>a short-lived occupation of only a single dutch island, at that
12:10<Rubidium>e.g. knight comes from the "knecht" (Dutch/German), but in Dutch/German it's the help of the knight, not the night itself
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12:12<MNIM>hehehe
12:12<MNIM>you call a knave what we call a knecht
12:14<Rubidium>in Dutch/German knight => ridder/ritter
12:16<MNIM>which means 'rider'
12:16<MNIM>as does the french 'cavalier'
12:18<__ln__>with all these strange languages around the continent, it's quite a luck that all the space aliens chose to speak english.
12:19<Rubidium>I doubt that
12:19<Rubidium>that ridder means rider
12:20<MNIM>it does.
12:20<Rubidium>in Dutch someone who rides a horse is a (paard)rijder
12:20<@Yexo>"ridder" means "knight" or equivalent, not "rider"
12:21<MNIM>I should rephrase my words.
12:21<@Yexo>"rider" could maybe be translated with "ruiter"?
12:21<MNIM>it's etymological origin comes from rider
12:22<MNIM>Yexo: true.
12:22<__ln__>"paard" is horse? ... then "luipaard" is what sort of horse?
12:22<@Yexo>that I don't doubt
12:22<MNIM>a cheetah, actually.
12:22<@Yexo>__ln__: "lui" means "lazy"
12:22<@Yexo>so a lazy horse ;)
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12:22<__ln__>it doesn't look much like a horse though :)
12:23<MNIM>quite probably caused by that it is both faster than a hourse, yet it mostly lays around all day
12:23<MNIM>same like a bike is called an 'iron horse' - yet it looks nothing like one.
12:23*__ln__ checks the OED to see where does the english word come from
12:23<MNIM>anyway
12:24<MNIM>'leopard' remind you of anything?
12:24<MNIM>these words are quite likely related, though I can't tell you whether the chicken or the egg came first
12:24<@Yexo>MNIM: "iron horse" for bike? I've only heard it used as synonym for a train engine
12:24<__ln__>MNIM: yes, it reminds me of a Mac OS X version.
12:25<@planetmaker>in German we have a "Drahtesel", Yexo :-)
12:25<@planetmaker>Which is a joking synonymous for bike
12:25<@planetmaker>(wire-donkey)
12:26<__ln__>Etymology: Middle English leopard, also lebard, lubard, leupard, etc., < Old French leopard, lebard, leupard, etc. (modern French léopard), < late Latin leopardus ( Hist. Aug.), < late Greek λεόπαρδος (S. Ignat., Galen), also λεοντόπαρδος (and λεοντοπάρδαλος, ? 4th cent.), < λεοντ-, λέωνlion n. + πάρδοςpard n.1
12:26<MNIM>yexo: it used to occupy the same niche In traffic as a horse for ages
12:26<@Yexo>didn't know that one :)
12:26<MNIM>as they have about the same speed and loading capacity, for about the same price (back then)
12:27<__ln__>"The animal originally so named was supposed to be a hybrid between lion and ‘pard’: compare Plin. N.H. viii. xvii, ‘[Leones] quos pardi generavere’."
12:27<MNIM>well, horses cost more and carry more, but they were employed by the same people
12:28<MNIM>the baker had a horse with a carriage to bring the bread to your door, or he had a three-wheeled 'bakfiets'
12:29<MNIM>(backfiets: a bike with the front-end replaced with two wheels on an axle and an open box (bak) on it
12:29<MNIM>*bakfiets
12:29<MNIM>http://www.bakfiets-en-meer.nl/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/workcycles-classic-bakfiets.jpg
12:29<MNIM>my niece just married in one of those just last weekend. :P
12:30<MNIM>though apparently it got upgraded to a Mercedes SLK sometime during the ceremony. :P
12:30<MNIM>guess the newly-married groom got tired of pedaling.
12:30<MNIM>hmmmh
12:31<MNIM>that's an idea for a small capacity OTTD vehicle
12:32<MNIM>carrier bikes and rickshaws
12:32<MNIM>well, for the 1850-1940 era
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12:45<_1009>That's a cute idea MNIM
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12:48<b_jonas>and a Swiss military version too that has larger capacity and gets a bonus for going up mountains
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13:15<Eddi|zuHause><__ln__> with all these strange languages around the continent, it's quite a luck that all the space aliens chose to speak english. <-- what? all space aliens i ever saw spoke german.
13:16<Eddi|zuHause><Yexo> __ln__: "lui" means "lazy" <-- i have a feeling in this case it's derived from "Lion" (Leo)
13:27<@Terkhen>heh
13:28<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/lui3 (if you know some dutch)
13:29<valhallasw>no links to lion though :-)
13:31<__ln__>"Onl. alleen het simplex pardo ‘luipaard’ in ther sint leuwon legor ande pardon holer ‘daar zijn legers van leeuwen en holen van luipaarden’"
13:32<__ln__>(from the obvious other page)
13:33<valhallasw>oh, wait, I should have highlighted you. *slaps himself*
13:33<TrueBrain>do you guys ever talk about OpenTTD? Sjeesss...
13:33-!-KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-72-134.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:33<@planetmaker>wait... what's that?
13:34<PeanutHorst>so tempted to create my own NewGRF ...
13:34<TrueBrain>I am not 100% sure
13:34<PeanutHorst>but i want to make it compatible with the 32bpp patches
13:34<@planetmaker>ah, ok... so... some dream phantasy?
13:34<PeanutHorst>/ extra zoom-level
13:34<@planetmaker>then do so, PeanutHorst
13:34<TrueBrain>most likely
13:34<valhallasw>http://www.etymologiebank.nl/zoeken/openttd, TrueBrain, no clue what it is.
13:34<PeanutHorst>planetmaker: is this a real game, is it dream phantasy(sic)
13:35<TrueBrain>valhallasw: and if that site doesnt have it, it doesn't exist
13:35<valhallasw>Of course!
13:36<@planetmaker>not on google == not existent, right?
13:36<@planetmaker>or is there more to the world?
13:36<TrueBrain>when I shut down my computer, the world stops
13:36<TrueBrain>so no
13:36<@planetmaker>ok. Seems so then. Just keep it running, or we're all doomed!
13:36<@planetmaker> ;;-)
13:36<valhallasw>Then, let me give you a relevant piece of music
13:36<valhallasw>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ9rUzIMcZQ#t=5s
13:37<__ln__>maybe there should be #openttd-openttd, which would be a place to speaek about OpenTTD.
13:37<__ln__>-e
13:38<TrueBrain>I can also just kcik everyone who doesn't talk about OpenTTD
13:38<@planetmaker>well, we all know this is the new #tycoon ;-)
13:38<TrueBrain>much more fun for me :D
13:38<valhallasw>__ln__: or we could use that channel to discuss what we should discuss here!
13:38<@planetmaker>We simply forgot to send people there ;-)
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22928 /trunk/src/lang/ (hungarian.txt slovak.txt slovenian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: hungarian - 8 changes by IPG
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: slovak - 110 changes by klingacik
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: slovenian - 26 changes by Necrolyte
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13:47<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22929 /trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt: -Fix (r22929): WT3 validation failure
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13:54<Wolf01>hello
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14:15<Hirundo>r22929 /trunk/src/lang/hungarian.txt: -Fix (r22929): WT3 validation failure <- recursive fixes :o
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14:21<KingJ>Have tunnels gained a speed penalty recently, or is this just something to do with the 2cc trainset?
14:28<andythenorth>hello
14:28<@planetmaker>KingJ: they did gain a power penalty
14:28<@planetmaker>(more airdrag)
14:28<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
14:30<andythenorth>what ho
14:31*andythenorth should do some FIRS or such
14:32<Elukka>do YACD, FIRS, and 2cc and actually go bankrupt
14:32<Elukka>oh as in do it.
14:32<Elukka>even better
14:33<KingJ>planetmaker: aha, that explains. Thanks!
14:34<@planetmaker>KingJ: take a strong enough engine and you won't feel it :-)
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15:19<andythenorth>any ponies?
15:20<V453000>mooo
15:21<andythenorth>hmm
15:21<andythenorth>wrong noise
15:21<andythenorth>did I mention...
15:22<V453000>:P
15:22<V453000>by the way
15:22<V453000>what colour would barrels be
15:23<andythenorth>cc
15:23<Elukka>there are no ponies
15:23<Elukka>this has been declared a no-pony zone
15:23*andythenorth has seen ponies here
15:24<appe>ponie grf, puh-leaze.
15:24*Elukka explodes
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15:35<Swissfan91>hello all. I'm thinking of drawing some sprites for a pedestrianised street, probably just as a newobject for now. Does anyone know how I make it so you can keep clicking on the tile and people appear in random places? Similar to how DWE stations has cargo containers that appear randomly the more you click.
15:37<frosch123>objects have random bits which you can use
15:37<frosch123>they are randomised whenever the object is build
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15:38<frosch123>there is no such thing as counting how often something is build on a tile
15:38<frosch123>that is, not for stations either
15:40<Swissfan91>so, it is just a coding technique?
15:40<EyeMWing>Yeah, just pick random variations on the graphics instead of defining a static one.
15:40<Elukka>andythenorth: have you ever tried FIRS with YACD?
15:41<frosch123>you draw different sprites
15:41<frosch123>later you select one of them randomly
15:41<Elukka>YACD can't seen to differentiate what is cargo and what is passengers/mail
15:41<andythenorth>Elukka: yes, I've tried it a lot
15:41<frosch123>you can also combine one sprite from several
15:41<Elukka>it will always give destinations for everything regardless of the settings
15:41<andythenorth>I haven't tried it with any setting except 'destinations for everything'
15:41<andythenorth>:P
15:41<Swissfan91>Ah ok, thanks guys.
15:41<EyeMWing>A pedestrianized street in a game about efficient transport is a delightfully sadistic idea, too.
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15:41<frosch123>so if you have some variety in different places, you do not have to draw all combinations of those
15:42<Elukka>well, it'd be nice to be able to toggle it
15:42<frosch123>but they can be composed at runtime
15:42<Elukka>i don't know if it's a problem in YACD or FIRS though
15:42<andythenorth>I wouldn't rule out a bug in FIRS
15:42<andythenorth>but more likely a YACD issue
15:42<Swissfan91>are 2x2 buildings allowed ? :P
15:42<andythenorth>Swissfan91: yes
15:43<frosch123>objects can be of size up to 16x16
15:43<@planetmaker>EyeMWing: search in google the route from Paris to NewYork ;-)
15:43<@planetmaker>that is sadistic ;-)
15:43<frosch123>but they are bulldozes at a whole
15:43<@planetmaker>Swissfan91: yes
15:43<Swissfan91>sorry. I mean, in a town set. Not as a newobject now.
15:43<frosch123>if they shall be removable as single tiles, they must be build as single tiles as well
15:43<andythenorth>houses can be 2x2, e.g. supermarket, stadium
15:43<frosch123>houses are limited to 2x2
15:44<@planetmaker>Swissfan91: if you say 'building' it implies 'town house'
15:44<@planetmaker>you should just play the game... ;-)
15:44<@planetmaker>then that question is answered very quickly :-P
15:44<Swissfan91>sorry yeah. mind blank :)
15:45<Swissfan91>@frosch123 - what do you mean?
15:45-!-Ruben_ [~5b5786d1@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd
15:45<frosch123>where?
15:46<Swissfan91>were you talking about newobjects when you said about removing single tiles?
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15:47<frosch123>yes
15:47<frosch123>objects are removed in a whole
15:47<Elukka>okay the YACd toggles don't work for ECS either, i guess it's YACD that's the problem
15:47<frosch123>they are not like fileds
15:47<frosch123>*fields
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15:48<frosch123>where you can remove single tiles
15:48<frosch123>without clearing the whole field
15:48<Swissfan91>I see. So my newobject Cable Car station, which is 2x2, will cause a problem?
15:48<frosch123>no
15:48<frosch123>but if you make a object for a 1x5 road
15:48<frosch123>you can only remove the whole 1x5 road
15:49<Swissfan91>I see. I was thinking of making a blank road tile, and then 5 or 6 with pedestrians in different places. Is that the best way to do it?
15:50<frosch123>take a look at the "company land" object in opengfx+landscape
15:53<@planetmaker>ingame it's meanwhile called 'fenced land' ;-)
15:53<@planetmaker>I found 'company land' too confusing
15:53<andythenorth>hmm
15:53<andythenorth>newgrf-fields
15:53<andythenorth>a project abandoned for good reason :)
15:54<@planetmaker>good? ;-)
15:54<@planetmaker>or rather... abandoned?
15:54<andythenorth>ask frosch123
15:54<frosch123>it was definitely coded the wrong way :p
15:54<@planetmaker>I know that it was ... put on the shelf. But the feature I think is not 'abandoned'
15:54<@planetmaker>just one implementation
15:55<@planetmaker>s/abandoned/rejected/
15:55<frosch123>we need some solution for irregular and draggable objects
15:55<@planetmaker>yup
15:56<Ruben_>Hi guys. I have a problem starting a multiplayer game. I'm on version 1.1.2, but each time I hit the 'find server' button, it freezes the game.
15:57<Ruben_>Anyone know a solution/can help me?
15:57<@planetmaker>a bit more patience?
15:57<Ruben_>Well, the game freezes and shows 'Not responding'...
15:57<frosch123>when was the windows issue wrt. name resolving fixed?
15:58-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
15:58<Ruben_>So I guess that will take a lot of patience :)
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15:58<frosch123>it was fixed in 1.1.2 :p
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15:59<@planetmaker>Ruben_: and your port 3979 is free and not blocked by antivirus etc?
16:00<@planetmaker>or in the router or whereever
16:00<andythenorth>would fields be similar to objects, except created by an industry, and over-buildable by anyone?
16:00<Ruben_>Let me check planetmaker
16:00<@planetmaker>I'd imagine that be the case, andythenorth
16:01<andythenorth>hmm
16:01<andythenorth>newobjects were not existing when fields were tested
16:01<@planetmaker>though one can certainly envision some flags for fields which make killing them subject to conditions
16:01<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess today it would be an extention to objects
16:02<frosch123>i.e. add the field-specific stuff to objects
16:02<frosch123>and let industries build objects
16:02<frosch123>though i wonder when we will run out of object ids :p
16:03<Rubidium>before NFOv8
16:03<frosch123>Rubidium: i mean the limitation of m2
16:03-!-LordAro [569cebe0@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
16:03<frosch123>64000 per map
16:04<LordAro>evenings
16:04<frosch123>it you have 1000 farms, and each plant 64 fields :p
16:04<frosch123>you can run out of objects already today
16:04<frosch123>just build a 256x256 area of "fenced land" :p
16:04<@planetmaker>hi LordAro
16:05<LordAro>hi planetmaker
16:05<@planetmaker>frosch123: then we really need irregular objects... or maybe fields are just assortments of one-tile-objects
16:05<@planetmaker>probably better
16:05<@planetmaker>hm...
16:06<@planetmaker>it needs *some* extension :-)
16:06<frosch123>well, the idea would be that dragging an object would only require one id
16:06<Ruben_>planetmaker: I guess that's the problem thanks
16:06<frosch123>fields otoh have only the industry id
16:06<@planetmaker>dragging would also be nice for fenced land, foobar's road shoulders etc
16:06<Ruben_>I tried on another computer and there it works w/o problems
16:07<frosch123>while there is no per-field id
16:07<@planetmaker>good, Ruben_ :-)
16:07<Ruben_>Well too bad for me :p
16:07<Ruben_>I cannot change firewall settings on this computer
16:07<Ruben_>sigh
16:07<@planetmaker>just check your personal firewall settings. oh
16:07<Ruben_>:)
16:07<@planetmaker>well, talk to your parents then (if that's who can change it)
16:07<Ruben_>haha
16:07<Ruben_>my company you mean :p
16:08<@planetmaker>:-D
16:08<Ruben_>I think... they will not allow me to change firewall settings for OTTD
16:08<@planetmaker>better not then ;-)
16:08<Ruben_>just a feeling :)
16:08<Ruben_>anyway thanks for your help!
16:08<@planetmaker>np
16:09<Ruben_>have a nice evening
16:09<@planetmaker>get an android phone - it's said the port exists ;-)
16:11<Elukka>funny
16:11<Elukka>i'm just pondering android phones
16:11-!-Ruben_ [~5b5786d1@101.haydn.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
16:11<Elukka>they're finally in the price range i'm willing to pay for a phone :P
16:11<LordAro>Elukka, likewise :)
16:11-!-PeanutHorst [~peanutlx@115-64-68-182.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Quit: SXEmacs - The Best A Geek Can Get - http://www.sxemacs.org/ or app-editors/sxemacs ]
16:12<Elukka>that is, max 100 eur
16:12*andythenorth has an iStupidPhone
16:12<Elukka>it's looking like ZTE Blade or Samsung Galaxy 5
16:12*andythenorth has an iTmakesMeCrossPhone
16:12<Elukka>the zte has a much better screen and somewhat better hardware
16:16<Elukka>heh i can see what's happening with chinese manufacturers
16:17<Elukka>first they're used by foreign companies to make their hardware, then they use their expertise to make their own stuff
16:17<andythenorth>yeah
16:17<andythenorth>odd that :P
16:18<Elukka>i bet in 10 years or sooner we'll have chinese brands equally known as, say, nokia or sony
16:22<Rubidium>YKK?
16:22<Rubidium>hmm, sorry... that ain't Chinese but Japanese
16:22<Rubidium>but I'd argue that you have some of their products in house
16:23-!-Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@client-81-107-130-177.midd.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
16:23<Chris_Booth>hi guys
16:25<Chris_Booth>has anyone reported any bugs with the windows version of openttd (r22815)? there seems to be an issue with the mouse/curser dissapearing with moving/resizing th windows. Aswell as when you try to close the window
16:25<Chris_Booth>but not when you move down to the windows task bar
16:25<Chris_Booth>shall I add this to flysrpay?
16:26<TrueBrain>all give a big hug to Yexo for making our website less annoying when navigating :D No longer it blanks white till the logos are loaded, but it is much more fluent :D:D:D:D
16:26*TrueBrain parties
16:26<LordAro>:D
16:26<@planetmaker>:-)
16:27<Rubidium>Chris_Booth: and it doesn't happen with any other version?
16:27<Chris_Booth>'to flyspray or not?
16:27<Chris_Booth>not sure Rubidium, I am a windows user
16:27<Chris_Booth>and the fellow windows user in #openttdcoop all agreed
16:27<Rubidium>version of OpenTTD...
16:28<Chris_Booth>read my post Rubidium
16:28<Chris_Booth>only seem to do it in that nightly and not current stable
16:29<Rubidium>thing is that I don't see any recent Windows specific changes
16:29<Chris_Booth>seems to be win 32 only
16:29<Rubidium>if I look to the video driver it must be there for at least ~6 months
16:30<Chris_Booth>I can video the issue for you
16:30<Chris_Booth>it when the game mouse is swaped back for windows mouse, on top of the screen
16:30<Chris_Booth>but not on the bottom of the screen
16:31<Rubidium>well, make the video and file a bug report I guess
16:31<Chris_Booth>ok will do
16:31<Rubidium>(with the video attached)
16:31<Chris_Booth>yep
16:32<EyeMWing>FWIW, I don't see it in R22427 Win32
16:32<Rubidium>it would be nice if you are able to tell which revision (i.e. nightly) introduced it
16:32<Rubidium>but you're sure there is no problem with 1.1.2?
16:33<EyeMWing>Nor in a 20-minute-old trunk build.
16:34<Rubidium>EyeMWing: but you can reproduce it in r22815?
16:34<EyeMWing>Pulling that down now.
16:37<Chris_Booth>Rubidium: something even more strange now, when I turned on camstudio to record my desktop openttd strat working
16:38-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:38<Rubidium>typical quantum bug ;)
16:39<Rubidium>or Heisenbug
16:40<Chris_Booth>well the bug is still on the screen (for the user) but my desktop cam still shows the mouse
16:41<EyeMWing>No go in r22815 Win32. Running on Win7 x64 with Aero turned on.
16:41<Rubidium>Chris_Booth: on the video it all looks correct?
16:42<Chris_Booth>yes
16:42<EyeMWing>Sounds to me like something upstream isn't compositing correctly.
16:42<Chris_Booth>the video looks great
16:42<Rubidium>Chris_Booth: then it's not OpenTTD, but something between OpenTTD and your screen
16:42<Chris_Booth>not just my screen Rubidium but lots of windows users
16:43<Rubidium>Chris_Booth: then it's maybe some windows update or something
16:43<Chris_Booth>might be an areo upgdate
16:43<Chris_Booth>was just going to try with areo off
16:43<Rubidium>if the video is correct, then OpenTTD must be sending the right data. Otherwise it simply cannot show the right graphics
16:44<Rubidium>which basically means that the video has provided proof that OpenTTD is not the buggy bit
16:44<Rubidium>that it triggers something buggy in something else is something completely else
16:44<EyeMWing>Most likely the video driver, if I remember how CamStudio works.
16:45<Chris_Booth>hhhm, seems to me like areo is the issue
16:45<Chris_Booth>as with areo off I can see the mouse at all times
16:45<Chris_Booth>as soon as I turn it on it breaks
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16:48<V453000>I am having a similar issue, noticed it when upgrading between r22727 and r22815
16:48<V453000>or the same one probably :)
16:49<Chris_Booth>you try and get a video or screen shot of it V453000. The mouse is there
16:50<@Yexo>V453000: can you try and go back to r22727 and confirm it doesn't have the issue?
16:50<V453000>guess it is only situational, cant reproduce it now
16:50<@Yexo>or maybe Chris_Booth can?
16:51<Chris_Booth>I can go back to r22727
16:51<Chris_Booth>is it on the openttd website?
16:51<Chris_Booth>or do I have to make it?
16:52-!-dandan1 [~Adium@p4FEF9B53.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
16:52<@Yexo>it's here: http://gb.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/nightlies/trunk/index.html
16:52<frosch123>i can produce a similar issue on linux with the sdl backend
16:53<frosch123>when i open a popup by right-clcking on the titlebar and closse it my left clicking in the ottd window, the mouse is gone :p
16:53-!-Bjarni [~Bjarni@0x573c4281.espnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #openttd
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16:53<frosch123>it actually works with every popup which is closed by clicking somewhere else
16:54<@Yexo>I can confirm that
16:54<Chris_Booth>ok r22727 has a mouse
16:54<Chris_Booth>trying 22729 now
16:55-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit []
16:55<Chris_Booth>r22729 works
16:56<@Yexo>Chris_Booth: it's easier to try something in the midle now, like r22830
16:56<Chris_Booth>ok will try 22830
16:56<@Yexo>that way we can quickly narrow down when the problem was introduced
16:56<Rubidium>Yexo: only we're looking between ..727 and ..815
16:57<@Yexo>oh, I missed that
16:57<Chris_Booth>lol
16:57<Chris_Booth>erm 790-800
16:57<@Yexo>790 works fine?
16:57<Chris_Booth>772 is last the 801
16:57<Chris_Booth>trying 772 now
16:58<Chris_Booth>22772 fine
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16:59<Chris_Booth>so now only 815 and maybe 804
16:59<@Yexo>815 was broken according to V453000
16:59<Chris_Booth>yes 815 is broken
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16:59<Chris_Booth>and 804
17:00<Chris_Booth>so last one without broken mouse is r22772
17:00<Chris_Booth>r22804 has broken mouse
17:00<Chris_Booth>I am not sure about current nightly
17:01<Chris_Booth>chech 22927 now
17:01<Chris_Booth>lol r22927 is fine
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17:06<Chris_Booth>Yexo: does that help?
17:06<@Yexo>if current trunk is fine I don't see how we're supposed to fix anything
17:06<Chris_Booth>lol
17:07<@Yexo>and we still don't know what caused the bug in earlier versions, so it's likely to come back
17:07<@Yexo>so there is nothing more you can do, but it doesn't really help ;)
17:07<Chris_Booth>if it comes back I will tell you
17:08<Chris_Booth>I can tell you the version that have the issue but I would not want to be the person reviewing all those subversions
17:11<@Yexo>nothing related changed in the OpenTTD code
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17:16<z-MaTRiX>hii
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17:20<b_jonas>I should use more "full load" orders
17:21<b_jonas>and more shared orders
17:23<b_jonas>apart from passenger and mail transport, when is it better not to use full load?
17:24<b_jonas>in practice that is
17:24<@Yexo>I always use full load for non-passenger transport
17:24<@Yexo>(and I never transport mail :p)
17:25<b_jonas>okay
17:25<EyeMWing>Mail is such an unloved cargo.
17:26<EyeMWing>I should try to play a postal service game some time.
17:26<@planetmaker>except by chopperAI
17:26<z-MaTRiX>what about full load any and using mixed cargo type passengers 8 3 mail ?
17:26<EyeMWing>I should also try out these newfangled AIs. Last time I played with competition was actually honest-to-god DOS TTD.
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17:28<b_jonas>I usually put at least one mail car on large passenger trains, which typically means 2 engines, 1 mail, 9 passenger carrige. Sometimes adding two mail car would be better (mail pays better), but I rarely try to figure it out.
17:28<b_jonas>Also, most passenger airplanes transport mail.
17:33<Elukka>i just put a mail car on my passenger trains
17:35<Elukka>why 2 engines?
17:35<Chris_Booth>Elukka: better power to wieght ratio
17:35<b_jonas>Elukka: an AsiaStar is made of two ends
17:35<Elukka>ah, yes
17:36<b_jonas>just one engine while I'm still using SH-40
17:36<Elukka>to anyone who's played 2cc... are locomotive pulled passenger trains ever worth it?
17:36<Elukka>even a high end multiple unit has less than half the maintenance cost of a locomotive
17:37<Elukka>more like a quarter really
17:37<b_jonas>hmm, no full load could be better for town ratings at the destination station
17:41<@planetmaker>good night
17:42<Chris_Booth>gn planetmaker
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17:45<EyeMWing>Well, in real life (at least in the US) MUs tend not to be safety rated to share track with freight.
17:45<EyeMWing>In 2cc? Probably not.
17:47<Chris_Booth>EyeMWing: lots of MU share tracks with Freight in the UK
17:47<@Terkhen>good night
17:47<Chris_Booth>actauly all trains on the west coast main lines are either MUs or Freight
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17:48<EyeMWing>We have some funky collision safety requirements that require the leading vehicle of a train to be at least as sturdy as a straight up freight locomotive. Dedicated-line MUs only have to be half as strong.
17:49<@Bjarni>are you in the US?
17:49<EyeMWing>Yes.
17:49<@Bjarni>thought so
17:50<@Bjarni>car drivers there are crazy
17:50<Elukka>here in finland we definitely have freight and MUs share track
17:50<@Bjarni>makes sense to build trains sturdy
17:50<@Bjarni>one collision every 90 minute on average
17:50<@Bjarni>in road crossings
17:50<Elukka>2cc does have a fair amount of passenger locomotives
17:50<Elukka>it's just they're really, really expensive to run compared to MUs
17:51<@Bjarni>which given the population would be the same as a collision every 4th day in Denmark. However it's more like one collision every year
17:51<@Bjarni>or even less than that
17:52<Elukka>i do like that MUs are cheaper to run as in most sets they're useless, just i'm not sure they should be that cheap in comparison to locomotives
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17:53<@Bjarni>running costs in OpenTTD is horribly unrealistic. If people try to copy some real numbers, then it ends up really unbalanced in the game
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17:54<@Bjarni>the system used in SimuTrans seems to be a bit more realistic, though still quite unrealistic and I wouldn't say it's a clear winner gamewise
17:55<EyeMWing>Colorado Railcar did a comparison between their DMU hauling some bilevels and locomotive-hauled bilevels. For the same seat count, the DMU burned a bit over .9 gallons per mile. The locomotive burned 2.3 gallosn per mile. So the running cost difference is there for sure.
17:55<@Bjarni>it's not a clear loser either
17:55<Elukka>interesting
17:55<Elukka>bjarni: how does simutrans use it?
17:55<Elukka>err, do it
17:55<@Bjarni>fixed price each day + a price for each tile moved
17:56<@Bjarni>for both engines and wagons
17:56<Elukka>huh.
17:56<Elukka>i'd love to see that in openttd
17:56<@Bjarni>cheap to have a train waiting at a station and expensive to move it around
17:56<EyeMWing>NARS does something like that.
17:57<Elukka>NARS does lower running costs when trains are standing still
17:57<b_jonas>actually more realistic might be if you had to pay for starting and turns and slopes but not much for just going on
17:57<b_jonas>especially if there's a lot of weight
17:58<EyeMWing>In RUST I'm planning on a fixed cost and then a sliding scale based on speed (which will be relevant for speed limits and such)
17:58<Elukka>so have a low base cost, a certain cost for moving a tile, and higher costs per slope tile
17:58<@Bjarni>it would be better if it's calculated like this: something fixed + variable*power usage
17:58<b_jonas>but how do you compute the power usage?
17:58<@Bjarni>power usage is 0 when braking or standing still, 100% when accelerating and calculated when maintaining speed
17:58<b_jonas>Elukka: no, also for starting
17:58<EyeMWing>we can already detect braking
17:59<EyeMWing>accelerating is more of a challenge.
17:59<@Bjarni>starting is accelerating
17:59<Elukka>okay starting too
17:59<b_jonas>you could pay for braking instead of for accelerating, that's almost the same, isn't it?
17:59<@Bjarni>b_jonas: no
18:00<@Bjarni>accelerating costs diesel. Braking makes the engine(s) run idle
18:00<EyeMWing>With a patch or two bumping running costs while running uphill would be doable.
18:00<@Bjarni>and the driver releases air, which makes the brakeshoes push against the wheels
18:00<Elukka>how would a 'realistic running costs' patch like this jive with existing grfs?
18:01<@Bjarni>replacing brakeshoes is an expense, but I say it's so little that it's not worth to include in the game
18:01<@Bjarni>not worth the CPU time
18:01<EyeMWing>If done right, it wouldn't change anything. Just expose more for the GRF author to use.
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18:02<b_jonas>Bjarni: sure, but you brake the same amount as you accelerate (if you account with slopes correctly), so if it's technically simpler for the game, it could measure braking instead of accelerating
18:03<@Bjarni><b_jonas> but how do you compute the power usage? <--- when maintaining speed, say the train has 2k hp, but it only needs 1200 to maintain it's current speed, then power usage would be 60%
18:03<@Bjarni>I know diesel engines doesn't burn diesel linear like that, but.... why make to too complex? :)
18:05<@Bjarni>I don't think it would be more complex to measure accelerating. If not top speed and not stopping and not stopped => accelerating
18:05<@Bjarni>could be even simpler
18:05<Elukka>i think it'd be better if it could interface with existing grfs, but i don't know how possible that is
18:05<@Bjarni>haven't looked at the specific code
18:06<@Bjarni>well I have, but not while thinking about this
18:06<b_jonas>or just add another field for speed
18:06<@Bjarni>it's a good question to to make this in a backward compatible way
18:06<b_jonas>for previous speed that is
18:06<Elukka>much like the realistic acceleration option works with old trains... it'd be nice for realistic running costs to work too
18:07<@Bjarni>the game is fully aware when a train is accelerating
18:07<b_jonas>Bjarni: it could be an option that only works if the train GRF allows it
18:07<@Bjarni>also an option
18:08<@Bjarni>this would make the game harder. If the train goes to max speed and is able to just maintain it, then running costs will be minimal
18:08<@Bjarni>each time they stop at a signal, they have to pay extra to gain speed afterwards because the engine has to work harder
18:09<Elukka>hmm...
18:09<@Bjarni>which means signals not only slow down transport time and hence income but also increases costs
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18:09<Elukka>in reality, it'd slow down so that it doesn't have to stop, but openttd trains aren't clever enough to do that
18:10<Elukka>it could be an argument to not have starts increase running costs
18:10<@Bjarni>at least not yet
18:10<Wolf01>'night
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18:11<b_jonas>it definitely should be an option in advanced settings
18:11<@Bjarni>I saw some guy posting on the forum that he wanted fast trains to slow down when behind a slow train like ATC does it...
18:11<b_jonas>not a default
18:11<b_jonas>ATC?
18:11<@Bjarni>we all want that but.... ATC has nothing to do with that :p
18:12<@Bjarni>Automatic Train Control
18:12<@Bjarni>it's a system which tells the train computer if the signal is green or red and pulls the emergency brake if the driver skips a red signal
18:13<@Bjarni>s/sjips/misses
18:13<@Bjarni>sure the the advanced version can theoretically be used to slow down to match speed, but that slowdown also works without ATC
18:13<b_jonas>I see
18:14<@Bjarni>like "this signal is green and the next is green" = 120 km/h
18:14<@Bjarni>"this signal is green and the next is red" = 60-70 km/h
18:14<@Bjarni>that's how it worked before ATC was installed
18:15<@Bjarni>and ATC is only updated near signals, which means it really can't provide improvements when it comes to this
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18:16<@Bjarni>in fact it makes it worse because it can know the next signal to be red and not realize it changed to green until it's close, which gives an unneeded slowdown. The driver can see the green signal though.
18:17<@Bjarni>There is a signal in Malmö where trains risks having to slow down to 10 km/h for a green signal xD
18:18<@Bjarni>it's when approaching the platform so it's not that big a deal though
18:20*Bjarni wonders how to make OpenTTD clever enough to make one train match the speed of the train in front of it
18:20<@Bjarni>it's actually somewhat complex to code
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18:21<@Bjarni>like say the next signal is red and the train on the other side is slow. If it always matches the speed, then it would be bad in some cases
18:22<EyeMWing>Yeah
18:22<@Bjarni>like if there are 20 tiles to the signal and the other slow train is gone when the train has travelled 10 tiles at full speed
18:22<@Bjarni>in that case it shouldn't slow down
18:22<EyeMWing>In reality, though, the train is averaging the same speed as the one in front anyway
18:23<@Bjarni>I guess it should be something like "match train speed in front if next block has no junctions"
18:24<@Bjarni>though that could result in unintended behavior as well
18:24<@Bjarni>maybe a new signal type...
18:25<b_jonas>about new signal types, what I'd like is a kind of debugging signal or waypoint whose effect is that if a train passes is then you get a news message
18:25<@Bjarni>"if heading for red signal (of new type), match speed of train in next block"
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18:26<@Bjarni>b_jonas: when would you use such a signal?
18:26<@Bjarni>and I think a waypoint would be better
18:27<b_jonas>probably a waypoint, yes
18:27<b_jonas>on train tracks that I put there so a train can reverse if it's lost, but should not usually go there
18:27<b_jonas>so eg. it could notify me if the train has chosen depots wrong and has to go back
18:28<@Bjarni>ahh
18:28<@Bjarni>makes sense
18:28<@Bjarni>I always adds depots to orders to avoid such issues
18:29<b_jonas>it's not only depots
18:29<b_jonas>it can be other problems with my rail design
18:29<@Bjarni>like wait to load train, then service (or forced if it's unreliable)
18:30<Elukka>http://www.brawa.de/en/products/h0/wagons/passenger-coaches/45263-compartment-coach-c4-kpev.html
18:30<Elukka>i'm browsing brawa's site for sprite drawing reference and goddamn their models are amazing
18:30<@Bjarni>how does the couplers work?
18:31<@Bjarni>doesn't look like normal model couplers to me
18:31<Elukka>http://www.brawa.de/en/products/h0/locomotives/steam-locomotives/45972-set-br94.html
18:31<Elukka>i think they come with both model couplers (just cosmetic) and actual functional couplers
18:31<Elukka>that set costs... 600 euros O_o
18:32<Elukka>that's like double the price of märklin stuff
18:32<@Bjarni>OpenTTD money or real money? :p
18:32<Elukka>real money!
18:33*Bjarni went to a Märklin store and was offered switches for 350 kr
18:33<@Bjarni>normal price is 400
18:33<Elukka>did they come with a motor and digital decoder
18:33<@Bjarni>that was some expensive used ones without original packages
18:33<@Bjarni>yeah
18:33<Elukka>that's... still expensive
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: afair the couplers are extension pieces which you can add, but then you can't run it anymore
18:33<@Bjarni>but I don't know if they worked
18:34<b_jonas>oh, so this is why these trains kept getting lost. I was missing some rail pieces so they can leave the depot so they had to go back to the station to reverse
18:34<@Bjarni>hehe
18:35<Elukka>since the models have NEM pockets i assume you can just switch to and from the functional and cosmetic coupler
18:35<Elukka>though... actually not sure
18:35<@Bjarni>looking at the picture it looks like the last guy doing the decoupling was lazy
18:35<Elukka>the cosmetic coupler might not actually attach to the pocket
18:35<@Bjarni>the chain is in the main hook
18:36<@Bjarni>it should be in a smaller hook below
18:36<@Bjarni>now if both cars are like that, one chain has to be moved down before the hook is ready for the chain from the other car
18:36<@Bjarni>lazy German switching workers :p
18:37<Elukka>i'd love to get some brawa models (once i can find the money to finish my layout...) but i'm not even sure how well they'd run on märklin tracks
18:38<Elukka>ah, they sell replacement wheelsets
18:39<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_2146-1.jpg
18:39<Elukka>gratuitous model picture :P
18:40<@Bjarni>http://www.brawa.de/uploads/tx_imagecycle/Brawa-Diorama-Ruebezahl_Startseite.png <-- that one looks nice too
18:40<b_jonas>what would you use a cosmetic coupler for? put it to the last carriage of the train?
18:40<@Bjarni>yes
18:40<@Bjarni>I think so
18:40<Eddi|zuHause>put it into a glass view
18:41<@Bjarni>that too
18:41<Elukka>i know people have made working couplers that look damn near like the real thing, it's just they won't couple/decouple automatically
18:41<+glx>wow it looks real
18:42<@Bjarni>makes me think of Toy Story 2.... the toy wants to be played with, not put on display in a glass box
18:42<Elukka>and since they're set between the buffers, curve radius has to be wide enough
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18:43<@Bjarni>curved tracks has always been an issue for hook and buffer couplers in real life
18:43<b_jonas>no automatic coupling and a large curve radius still sounds like a real thing to me
18:43<@Bjarni>which is part of the reason (main reason?) Japan switched to the US system
18:44<Elukka>yes but it's nice to be able to fit your layout in a room :P
18:44<+glx>no curves ?
18:44<@Bjarni>narrowgauge tracks and really bad curves makes buffers skip each other and cause deadlocks
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>the main reason why europe didn't switch coupling systems yet is that they couldn't agree on anything...
18:44<@Bjarni>as usual...
18:44<b_jonas>it's also because they don't want to spend any money on even maintaining property
18:45<Eddi|zuHause>but german DMU and EMU types already have different couplings
18:45<Elukka>in model rail, these days most models come with a close coupler mechanism
18:45<b_jonas>buying new stuff is completely out
18:45<@Bjarni>though not switching gives the benefit that even 19th century locomotives can pull modern wagons
18:45<@Bjarni>or vice versa
18:45<Elukka>it keeps the cars nice and snug on straight track and slight curves, but brings them further away as needed
18:45<Elukka>to avoid buffer lock
18:45<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_2729.jpg
18:45<EyeMWing>Meanwhile, in America, even out HSTs have standard automatic couplers stashed under covers at the nose.
18:46<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: german railways have "adapters" to allow regular engines pull e.g. an ICE train
18:46<Elukka>in finland we have locomotives with both buffer & chain and automatic couplers
18:46<Elukka>russian automatic couplers, similar to the american ones i understand
18:46<EyeMWing>Yeah, the Russians are the same, just pointier and incompatible
18:47<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: I think that goes for all of Europe. They are just not around when an engine needs to pull a broken EMU away
18:47<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/VR_Electric_Locomotive_Helsinki_Finland.jpg
18:47<Elukka>there's a knucle and there's a chain...
18:47<@Bjarni>which causes slowdowns in recovery when something like that happens
18:47<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: afair the russian couplers are improved american couplers
18:48<Elukka>american trains seem so much easier model-rail wise :D
18:48<Elukka>no buffers to lock... comparatively huge couplers on the real thing too
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18:50<@Bjarni>http://www.brawa.de/produkte/h0/lokomotiven/diesellokomotiven/42700-diesellok-gravita-15-bb-werkslok-voith-turbo.html <--- wtf... built 2011
18:50<@Bjarni>I took two pictures of such an engine
18:50<@Bjarni>a real life one
18:50<Elukka>i do like the märklin close couplers though, they couple automatically with little force and are easy to manually decouple from underneath with a bent piece of wire
18:50<@Bjarni>looked sort of new though
18:51<@Bjarni>not dirty at all or anything
18:51<Elukka>that's a good looking locomotive
18:52<Elukka>http://www.alstom.com/assets/0/4294967308/170/2147485722/2147485723/2147485850/79b5d0f1-652c-48fb-bcb4-01545117e7a6.jpg
18:53<Elukka>i rather like the looks of this one too
18:53<Elukka>http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/5/1/4/8514.1149472800.jpg
18:53<Elukka>what a weird picture
18:53<Elukka>american and european locomotives coupled together... in iran
18:53<@Bjarni>but I was just walking next to a railroad and it happened to pass by chance... kind of lucky to bring my camera when something like that showed up out of nowhere
18:54<@Bjarni>unpowered railroad line btw
18:54<@Bjarni>so the one you wanted to show would sure be a real sight there :p
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18:55<Elukka>speaking of american locomotives, there seem to be a fair bit exported to china too
18:55<Elukka>it's not just china exporting stuff to the US
18:55<Elukka>i recall people writing about huge consists of brand new diesels bound for china
18:56<EyeMWing>Yeah.
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>some east german engines and wagons were actually prepared to be refitted to russian-style couplings
18:56<EyeMWing>That's the primary business for EMD and GE these days.
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18:56<Elukka>and while i'm rambling, there's still a rail line in china that uses steam locomotives
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>in preparation for a possible switch in the eastern block, i presume
18:57<EyeMWing>China needs motive power to get all our consumer crap onto ships, after all
18:57<Elukka>it might be primarily to attract tourists and such, but they're still using steam locomotives for practical purposes
18:57<Elukka>it was a coal line i think, with some passenger service
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>EyeMWing: those "consumer crap" things are usually produced near the coast. the steam-operated lines are usually way in the back country, e.g. for coal transports
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18:58<Elukka>i don't think there's more than that one steam line left these days
19:03<@Bjarni><Elukka> and while i'm rambling, there's still a rail line in china that uses steam locomotives <-- yeah.... except they actually retired their steam locomotives in 2008
19:03<@Bjarni>or was it 2006... not sure
19:03<Elukka>aww
19:04<Elukka>didn't know that
19:04<@Bjarni>I think it was 2008
19:04<@Bjarni>stupid move to retire those
19:04<@Bjarni>they ran in an area with coal mines and they designed to burn discarded coal dust
19:04<@Bjarni>or coal rubbles
19:04<@Bjarni>cheap fuel
19:05<@Bjarni>though it meant the fireman should fire all the time
19:05<@Bjarni>as a result they had two firemen and they switched every 10th minute
19:05<Elukka>well, it isn't exactly cheap to maintain steam, nor very environmental... though i'd keep a couple locomotives going for historical purposes
19:05<@Bjarni>so tiny coals burns virtually instantly in such a heat
19:06<@Bjarni>cheap to maintain.... are you talking about what to pay Chinese workers to do the job in a low paid area?
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19:06<@Bjarni>I said it was near the coal mines, were work is the railroad or the coal mines
19:07<Elukka>well, they didn't retire them for no reason and i have my doubts they did it for the environment
19:07<@Bjarni>environmental... that would be a first if China cares about pollution, which aren't killing people though drinking water or similar
19:07<EyeMWing>Probably maintenance cost.
19:07<Elukka>that's what i'm guessng
19:08<@Bjarni>maybe they were worn out and needed new boiler pipes and stuff
19:08<Elukka>well, china is having to think a bit about the environment because the pollution is resulting in very real economic losses
19:08<@Bjarni>yeah, but they don't care about coal smoke
19:09<@Bjarni>they care about toxic rivers because rivers are also drinking water
19:09<@Bjarni>sick workers are political dangerous as well as unable to work well
19:09<Elukka>true
19:11<EyeMWing>dbg: [misc] Drawing string using newlines with DrawString instead of DrawStringM
19:11<EyeMWing>ultiLine. Please notify the developers of this: []
19:12<EyeMWing>(While filtering in the NewGRF window)
19:13<@Bjarni>make a bug report or it risk being forgotten
19:14<EyeMWing>Yeah, soon as I've cleared my mental decks. Reworking the refit window atm...
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19:21<@Bjarni>odd. The diesel loco I took a picture off says nothing but Voith, which is the factory
19:21<@Bjarni>no names of railroad companies
19:26<EyeMWing>Short-term lease or demo unit.
19:27<@Bjarni>looks like it
19:28<@Bjarni>google search on the engine type reveals all of them have names on the front or are even completely repainted
19:28<@Bjarni>except the ones standing on the factory
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19:34<Elukka>Eddi|ZuHause: any idea what "Wd fit car brn" stands for in the color templates?
19:34<Elukka>it's the "wd fit" part i don't get
19:37<EyeMWing>... Wait, did that just work?
19:37<EyeMWing>It wasn't supposed to work yet, it was supposed to crash spectacularly.
19:44<@Bjarni>crash test failed :p
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19:51<EyeMWing>Hrm
19:51<EyeMWing>This edge case sucks.
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23:16<EyeMWing>When figuring tractive effort when real figures aren't available, what's a good value for the coefficient of friction? Theoretical max is .78, but that's crazy unrealistic.
23:17<Elukka>i haven't the slightest idea, but i'd take an engine that does have its tractive effort known and fiddle with the equation until it results in something close
23:18<EyeMWing>Oddly enough, the only locomotive I DON'T have a real value for is the only one I actually have a sales brochure for
23:18<EyeMWing>I suppose I could just look at the US Set and assume oracle did his homework back in the day.
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---Logclosed Tue Sep 13 00:00:59 2011