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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-14

---Logopened Wed Sep 14 00:00:00 2011
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00:37<Elukka>http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/09/vladimir-putin-action-man/100147/
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00:50<@SmatZ>my president > your president
00:51<@SmatZ>(if I were Russian and Putin were actually a president ;)
00:57<Elukka>well he's a terrible man
00:57<Elukka>i still find his pics amusing though
01:05<@peter1138>heh, maybe he needs these tyres on... http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=30461
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01:32<DiabloD3>man, I wonder why no one has a really good server
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01:42<@peter1138>what makes a good server?
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01:54<@planetmaker>moin
01:55*planetmaker also wonders what a 'really good server' is
01:55<@planetmaker>in case of doubt I suggest 'create one' :-)
01:59<DiabloD3>well like
01:59<DiabloD3>lots of servers have tiny limits on vehicles and such
01:59<DiabloD3>and boats
01:59<DiabloD3>and dont install enough additional content
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02:04*planetmaker thinks that a few hundret per company is quite a lot
02:05<DiabloD3>not when you're doing bus work inside of towns
02:05<DiabloD3>and a few hundred no
02:05<@planetmaker>and I'm not sure that NewGRFs are required for a 'good server'
02:05<DiabloD3>all the servers Ive been own limit it pretty low
02:06<@planetmaker>More important is that the NewGRF selection makes sense
02:07<@planetmaker>well, join one of those where you can talk to the admins ;-)
02:08<DiabloD3>meh, admins are like it takes too much memory or cpu and they get vpses from shitty providers
02:09<@planetmaker>ok, in that case I really suggest: do it better
02:09<DiabloD3>I tried that once
02:09<@planetmaker>and you did worse? ;-)
02:09<DiabloD3>two or three years ago I put an openttd server up
02:09<DiabloD3>no one ever used it
02:10*planetmaker wonders how that can happen
02:10<@planetmaker>once we setup a stable server it was immediately accepted by people
02:11<EyeMWing>Wasn't multiplayer brand new and very desync-y two or three years ago?
02:11<@planetmaker>no
02:12<@planetmaker>it was established and worked like a charm, ever since I started playing it
02:12<DiabloD3>planetmaker: I think it predated the autodownload shit
02:12<@planetmaker>which is more than three years ago
02:12<DiabloD3>people hated having to download shit
02:12<pjpe>mp worked fine in 2006
02:12<pjpe>and earlier
02:12<@planetmaker>^^
02:12<pjpe>hell openttdcoop wasn't even a new thing in 2006
02:12<@planetmaker>exactly ;-)
02:12<EyeMWing>Huh. I guess I lost a few years somewhere.
02:13<@planetmaker>well, PSG 01 is from late 2005
02:14<@planetmaker>so multiplayer obviously worked well back then
02:14<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_01_-_10
02:14<@planetmaker>which was OpenTTD r3320
02:15<@planetmaker>DiabloD3: and NewGRFs also worked... if one could provide a somewhat stable download loaction for a set of NewGRFs
02:16<@planetmaker>But they became indeed much more popular with the online content download
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02:16<DiabloD3>planetmaker: yeah, but it wasnt automated
02:16<EyeMWing>The coop grf pack was (and still is) full of total awesome, and it's a single download.
02:16<EyeMWing>90% of my station GRFs still come out of there and ONLY out of there.
02:16<@planetmaker>EyeMWing: well, I'm actually happy that it's mostly obsolete nowadays ;-)
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02:17<DiabloD3>well like
02:17<DiabloD3>theres a grf for more vehs
02:17<@planetmaker>90% of your station grfs?
02:17<EyeMWing>I use a TON of minor station sets.
02:17<EyeMWing>Seriously. The list is obscene
02:18<@planetmaker>Well, I know the coop grfpack... but many are also on bananananananas meanwhile. But yes, not all. Nor probably ever will
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02:18<@planetmaker>some people boycot bananans
02:18<DiabloD3>bananas?
02:18<EyeMWing>And then there's all the dead sets.
02:18<@planetmaker>DiabloD3: 'more vehicles'? The vehicle count is not NewGRF-able
02:18<@planetmaker>bananas = online content
02:19<DiabloD3>erm, huh?
02:19<DiabloD3>ive played grfs that add vehicles
02:19<@planetmaker>http://bananas.openttd.org/en/newgrf/
02:19<@planetmaker>they can add new vehicle models, yes
02:20<@planetmaker>but there's not one, there's zillions of NewGRFs which provide trains. Several which provide RV, some for planes and ships
02:20<DiabloD3>egrvts I thok it was
02:21<@planetmaker>yes, that's one which provides RV
02:21<EyeMWing>egrvts drives me insane for one reason: Livestock on flatbeds.
02:22<DiabloD3>oh and
02:22<DiabloD3>can servers provide 32bpp?
02:22<EyeMWing>If they're running the 32bpp build, yes.
02:22<DiabloD3>so basically no then?
02:23<EyeMWing>Builds have to match client->server. 32bpp relies on a ton of code that isn't in the main branch.
02:23<EyeMWing>so prettymuch no.
02:23<DiabloD3>yeah thought so =/
02:23<DiabloD3>even having just extra zoom would be nice
02:23<DiabloD3>openttd was clearly never meant for 1920x1200
02:23<@planetmaker>EyeMWing: 32bpp is in OpenTTD for ages
02:24<@planetmaker>people only always think that 32bpp is only provided by the extra zoom branch
02:24<@planetmaker>which could not be more wrong
02:24<@planetmaker>32bpp also needs no server support
02:24<EyeMWing>... Well some people need to update the heck out of the docs over there
02:24<DiabloD3>yeah please
02:24<DiabloD3>someone write docs that tells me EXACTLY what I need to do to have a server do 32bpp
02:24<@planetmaker>people just have to grab the 32bpp graphics and adjust their blitter. Then they can use it - whatever other people in the same do
02:25<@planetmaker>DiabloD3: nothing. It's a pure player choice
02:25<DiabloD3>wait, what?
02:25<@planetmaker>the server has no need for 32bpp, nor can he force it
02:25<DiabloD3>so wait, why the hell dont I have 32bpp then?
02:25<@planetmaker>32bpp work as local replacement for 8bpp graphics
02:25<@planetmaker>always
02:25<DiabloD3>I have the zoom only pack installed
02:25<DiabloD3>and it does nothing
02:26<@planetmaker>see. zoom-only ;-)
02:26<DiabloD3>well yes I want zoom too
02:26<@planetmaker>that won't work with servers and player-side only - as that needs a modified OpenTTD
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02:26<DiabloD3>crud.
02:26<DiabloD3>so if I make my server allow it, no one can play?
02:27<@planetmaker>those who also use that version
02:27<DiabloD3>which is no one
02:27<@planetmaker>but running patched OpenTTD usually attracts very few players
02:28<EyeMWing>https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Union_Pacific_GTELs Coding these monstrosities tonight.
02:28-!-KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-248-23.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
02:28<@planetmaker>:-) How's work going on the set, EyeMWing?
02:29<DiabloD3>because what I want to do is basically provide as much content as possible
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02:29<EyeMWing>Getting there. Got most of the wagons knocked off, working my way through the locos now. Slow going, since I'm being a bit OCD and documenting all the "include this later" items.
02:30<@planetmaker>OCD?
02:30<@planetmaker>but documenting stuff... never bad
02:32<EyeMWing>Except when it turns into a 3-hour wikipedia adventure
02:33<@planetmaker>does it matter?
02:33<DiabloD3>okay so guys
02:33<@planetmaker>EyeMWing: important is that you have fun doing it :-)
02:33<DiabloD3>egrvts + industrial stations renewal + total bridge renewal + ecs full?
02:33<@planetmaker>and... how quick are other train sets being coded? You know?
02:34<@planetmaker>you're missing a trainset, plane set and ship set, DiabloD3
02:34<DiabloD3>honestly
02:34<@planetmaker>ecs needs vehicle support
02:34<DiabloD3>I dont actually care for trains sometimes
02:34<DiabloD3>road vehicles are really goddamned interesting in openttd
02:34<@planetmaker>well. without you made the choice you'll never have useful trains later in that game
02:35<@planetmaker>and you can't correct it
02:35<DiabloD3>I didnt say I wont have more trains
02:35<DiabloD3>Im just saying that servers overlook alternative play
02:35<@planetmaker>we know that :-P
02:35<@planetmaker>but it doesn't sound particularily strange what you suggest
02:36<DiabloD3>what about the giant boats one?
02:36<@planetmaker>http://www.openttd.org/en/server/33398
02:36<DiabloD3>I could throw that in
02:36<EyeMWing>Fish is awesome for ships.
02:36<@planetmaker>2nd server I looked at in the server list
02:37<pjpe>512x512
02:37<pjpe>that sounds a bit small
02:37<@planetmaker>pjpe: not at all. plenty, if you ask me
02:37<DiabloD3>planetmaker: I sort by users
02:37<DiabloD3>when I look at the mp list in game
02:37<@planetmaker>I'll hardly authorize bigger maps
02:38<@planetmaker>bigger maps offer no more options and leave maps unfinished
02:38<DiabloD3>depends
02:38<pjpe>don't you run out of industry and towns to connect
02:39<@planetmaker>DiabloD3: but how that's an argument when your statement was "no good servers" and the 2nd I look at has your config? ;-)
02:39<DiabloD3>it kind of sucks when you can afford a map length rail
02:39<DiabloD3>planetmaker: if it has no users, its not good.
02:39<@planetmaker>so your complaint rather is "I like different maps than others. They suck"?
02:40<EyeMWing>I can afford a map length rail before 1890 on well-played 2048x2048 map.
02:40<@planetmaker>2048^2 is booring :-)
02:40<Noldo>:D
02:40<@planetmaker>Games need to finish with hardly anything filled-in
02:41<DiabloD3>planetmaker: well whats the point of mp if its sp?
02:41<EyeMWing>I always play 2048, with the town and industry densities relatively low.
02:41<@planetmaker>how can you argue with SP when you just complained about too few other players?
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02:43<DiabloD3>planetmaker: read what I wrote again
02:43<DiabloD3>why play on a server that has no players?
02:45<@planetmaker>why complain about lacking servers of your choice while you refuse to play on those which offser your game style on grounds of 'no one is (already) connected'
02:46<@planetmaker>how does that work, if everyone does the same?
02:46<@planetmaker>sounds like catch22
02:46<@planetmaker>and that server has a connected client for what its worth
02:48<DiabloD3>hrm
02:48<DiabloD3>whats FIRS do?
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02:49<DiabloD3>it seems like an inferior version of ECS
02:50<Elukka>it's an entirely different set
02:50<@planetmaker>it's a different industry set
02:50<Elukka>plus, i would say, it has much better graphics
02:50<Elukka>the sprites for the as of yet unreleased new ECS version look excellent though
02:50<DiabloD3>which is more popular?
02:51<Elukka>also, yeah, basic openttd can run 32bpp graphics these days
02:51<@planetmaker>depends on whom you ask, DiabloD3
02:51<Elukka>it's just that most of those graphics don't exist
02:51<Elukka>there isn't a full replacement of stock graphics to 32bpp sprites
02:51<@planetmaker>Elukka: partially both sets even share sprites
02:51<Elukka>there also isn't any 32bpp vehicle set as far as i know
02:52<DiabloD3>gvertdzs has one
02:52<DiabloD3>but its outdated
02:52<@planetmaker>egrvts is the only one I know which offers 32bpp
02:53<@planetmaker>egrvts is outdated?
02:53<@planetmaker>in what way?
02:53<DiabloD3>no the 32bpp pack for it is
02:53<DiabloD3>at least according to the forum
02:53<@planetmaker>hm, only for grvts?
02:53<Elukka>huh. so it does
02:53<@planetmaker>dunno, I hardly use it
02:54<Elukka>i think the problem with 32bpp sprites is that basically the entire game would have to be drawn with them or having just a few of them around will look out of place
02:54<@planetmaker>it = 32bpp
02:54<@planetmaker>Elukka: exactly. And the base set is not fully re-drawn yet
02:54<@planetmaker>nor is that making lots of progress lately
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02:54<Elukka>besides that they're a lot more work
02:55<@planetmaker>yes... it needs 10000 sprites
02:55<@planetmaker>But I'd not argue that they're more work than 8bpp
02:55<Elukka>hmm, well
02:55<@planetmaker>that'd be wrong, I think
02:55<Ammler>landscape and houses are almost done, vehicels aren't
02:56<@planetmaker>it just needs again the same amount of work
02:56<Elukka>you can make a 3D model and render it from whichever angle you wish
02:56<@planetmaker>"just" ;-)
02:56<@peter1138>and it'll look like crap
02:56<Elukka>but first you've got to model that, and i think that's more work than creating a tiny pixel sprite
02:56<@planetmaker>I don't think so
02:56<Elukka>then when you get to either giving it a compelling texture, or overpainting each sprite... that's where the real work is
02:56<EyeMWing>Not for the sort of basic boxy models TTD calls for
02:57<Ammler>zeph made his set that way afaik
02:57<Elukka>UV unwrapping is a huge bitch and i will forever hate it :D
02:57<@planetmaker>pik ka also makes some planes with a renderer and overpainting
02:57<EyeMWing>Heck, I'd argue that 8bpp spriting is actually harder. Or at least more of an arcane art.
02:58<@planetmaker>:-)
02:58<@planetmaker>It's entirely different
02:58<Elukka>having done both 8bpp and 3D modeling and texturing, i'd say doing the sprites is definitely faster
02:58<Elukka>though i'm not a very time efficient 3D modeler
03:01<EyeMWing>You know, thinking about it, TT might be the very last user 8bpp artwork. Period. The only other situations I know of that still called for 8bpp within the past 10 years are all 16bpp+
03:02<@planetmaker>Well, people obviously like 8bpp... after all they completely re-made it in 8bpp along with many NewGRFs. But they didn't in 32bpp so far
03:03<EyeMWing>And most of those situations are for drawing things using absolutely barebones video modes - during POST and early boot and such.
03:04<@planetmaker>But actually I'd love to see the 32bpp project get sufficient support to really finish a complete set of 32bpp graphics for the game. And I'm talking about normal zoom...
03:04<@planetmaker>Extra zoom is different, but if people like they can provide those graphics, too
03:05<@peter1138>it needs some proper teamwork to produce a consistent set
03:05<@planetmaker>Yes, quite so
03:05<@planetmaker>And it needs to target the normal zoom level foremost - or it won't aquire a sufficient user base to get critical mass
03:06<EyeMWing>Aw this thing is just impossibly cool. http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/up1.jpg
03:08<@peter1138>hmm, about 4°C out
03:08<@peter1138>winter already :D
03:15<EyeMWing>And this is just completely rediculous. A rebuilt locomotive with abolustely nothing in it but ballast and a cab, another rebuilt locomotive with nothing in it but a turbine unit, and a rebuilt steam engine coal tender fitted with equipment to pulverize the coal and feed it to the turbine. Why? Because America. http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/up80.jpg
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03:15<EyeMWing>If that goes into the set, it's going to need a base reliability of 0.
03:17<@planetmaker>:-D
03:17<EyeMWing>I mean, the thing only managed 10k miles in 7 years.
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03:30<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:35<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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03:43<Elukka>anyone happen to know smartphones?
03:44<DiabloD3>ooh!
03:44*planetmaker knows smarter questions ;-)
03:44<DiabloD3>heqs
03:44<DiabloD3>I wonder if thats still under development
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03:46<DiabloD3>okay so, Im thinking
03:47<EyeMWing>heqs absolutely is still under development.
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03:48<DiabloD3>2cc + 2cc chimera + av8 + ecs & first veh set + all of ecs + egrvts + heqs + fish + heqs + hover bus
03:49<@planetmaker>what is the "first veh set"?
03:49<DiabloD3>+ industrial station renewal + total bridge renewal
03:49<DiabloD3>er, firs
03:49<@planetmaker>forget it. FIRS and ECS cannot work together. Either or
03:50<DiabloD3>no, thats the name of the grf
03:50<lugo>he means the ecs+firs vehicles addon i guess
03:50<DiabloD3>it allows normal veh retrofittable to firs and ecs cargos
03:50<@planetmaker>ah, that crap one
03:50<lugo>yeah you don't need that if you have egrvts
03:50<DiabloD3>ahh
03:57<DiabloD3>so I wonder if all of this will even work together
03:57<@Terkhen>meh, they have created amazon.es
03:58<@Terkhen>now I can't buy cheap things on other countries' amazon anymore
03:58<@Terkhen>DiabloD3: it should
03:58<DiabloD3>hrm 2cc looks like it makes the trains very complex
03:58<@planetmaker>Terkhen: why can't you buy there anymore?
03:59<@planetmaker>I could still order at, say, amazon.ca
03:59<@Terkhen>really? I have been told that I won't be able to buy stuff that amazon.es also sells because they won't ship it here
03:59<@planetmaker>hm, I think it worked
03:59<@Terkhen>that amazon does not compete against itself :P
03:59<@planetmaker>:-)
04:00<@planetmaker>it's a bit ago I did that... so might have changed, though
04:00<@Terkhen>I'll have to test when it is more established, right now amazon.es only have "imports from amazon (country)"
04:00<DiabloD3>_huh_
04:00<DiabloD3>2cc doesnt let you put any cargo on trains now?
04:00<DiabloD3>high speed rail is for people only?
04:00<@Terkhen>DiabloD3: no clue, I don't use 2cc
04:00<@Terkhen>I know that it supports cargos, but that's it
04:00*Terkhen only uses the metro trains :P
04:01<DiabloD3>well I want a train set that makes it more interesting
04:01<DiabloD3>oh apparently I dont need 2cc chimera anymore
04:02<@Terkhen>for certain definitions of interesting I'm not the right person to ask :)
04:02<@Terkhen>I usually use OpenGFX+ Trains or the spain set
04:02<@planetmaker>:-)
04:02<@planetmaker>not to forget OpenGFX+Road vehicles
04:02<DiabloD3>well Im trying to use egrvts + heqs
04:03<@Terkhen>use egrvts2
04:03<@Terkhen>Zephyris is asking for testing/feedback :)
04:03<DiabloD3>why do we have two road sets anyhow?
04:04<@Terkhen>why not?
04:04<@Terkhen>people likes variety
04:04<DiabloD3>yeah but why not just fold it into one
04:04<@Terkhen>what if someone does not want to play with heavy equipment?
04:04<@Terkhen>besides, they are developed by different people with different tastes and priorities
04:04<Elukka>i still don't understand what the high speed passenger locomotives in 2cc are for, when a high speed EMU is literally ten times cheaper to run
04:05<DiabloD3>INDUSTRIES! INDUSTRIES EVERYWHERE!
04:06<MNIM>elukka: faster loading speed? also, the ability to transport goods? besides that, the sncf high-speed loc is several years earlier than the high speed emus
04:07<@planetmaker>Elukka: that set needs balancing. and yes, the metros load MUCH faster
04:07<@Terkhen>the metro trains are awesome for local networks / YACD
04:07<Elukka>i didn't mean metros, i meant the high speed locomotives that cost something like $100k/year to run
04:07<Elukka>i'm loving the metros
04:07<@Terkhen>Elukka: I requested a feature to enable/disable different types of trains in the 2cc set months ago
04:08<@Terkhen>but since that hasn't been implemented I ended up playing with a NewGRF that only includes the metro trains
04:08<@Terkhen>it's on online content IIRC
04:08<Elukka>i'd like them all to be there, but i'd like both locomotive pulled and MU trains to be viable
04:08<@Terkhen>hmm... truly? all of them? :)
04:09<DiabloD3>super speedytrac, red peak are missing from heqs if I install evgvts
04:09<Elukka>well, just that one isn't 10 times better than the other
04:09<MNIM>muh, I don't like the metro trains. the whole purpose of the metro is to be small footprint, dense and fast-loading
04:09<@Terkhen>your mouse scroll wheel is going to cry a lot if you use all 2cc trains :P
04:09<Elukka>i do like that 2cc makes an effort to make MUs useful
04:09<DiabloD3>also
04:09<Elukka>but i think the high end MUs should have much higher running costs
04:10<DiabloD3>my shoreline is corrupted
04:10<MNIM>it got the second two down, but sadly metro tunnels is outside of OTTD's scope for now
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04:10<DiabloD3>hrm
04:10<DiabloD3>not enough boats!
04:10<DiabloD3>needs more boats!
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04:11<@Terkhen>DiabloD3: enable/disable NewGRFs until you find the culprit and report it to that NewGRF forum thread
04:11<@Terkhen>and use FISH
04:11<DiabloD3>this is with fish
04:11<dihedral>good morning all ye special people (you know who you are)
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04:11<@Terkhen>good luck then :)
04:11<@Terkhen>hi dihedral
04:11<norbert79>Morning
04:11<dihedral>hey ho :-)
04:11<@Terkhen>hi norbert79
04:11<norbert79>Morning Terkhen
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04:13<DiabloD3>oh wait found what it was
04:13<DiabloD3>I accidently left 32bpp pack enabled
04:16<norbert79>Question: With the introduction of the weight multiplier, or not because of it, the vagons are counted as 0.5-1-1.5 and so on. How to switch this back to regular?
04:16<@Terkhen>wagons are always counted that way in 1.1.x, and to my knowledge there is no way to switch back
04:17<@Terkhen>the "old" way of counting was wrong with NewGRFs that use non-standard lengths for engines / wagons IIRC
04:17<norbert79>I see
04:17<@planetmaker>it also has nothing to do with weight multiplier
04:17<norbert79>well, it's a bit confusing, but I can understand the reason of it
04:17<norbert79>planetmaker: Yeah, just understood it
04:17<@planetmaker>and this is the correct length in tile units
04:17<@Terkhen>yes, once you get used to it, it is better :)
04:17<@planetmaker>previously it counted somewhat half-tiles. Which is a stupid unit, if wagons have different lenths
04:18<norbert79>Sure, but it was easier to see how many wagons I have :)
04:18<@Terkhen>yes :P
04:18<norbert79>but right, length is a bit more important
04:18<DiabloD3>lol
04:18<DiabloD3>norbert79: is right
04:19<norbert79>Just upgraded everything on my collection to 1.1.2, skipped a few versions, so wanted to catch up again
04:19<norbert79>and got suprised by some new features since 1.0.5
04:19<norbert79>:)
04:19<norbert79>Yet I am afraid having too many features makes the game overcomplicated :)
04:19<norbert79>but it's still managable
04:20<@Terkhen>pressing ctrl while terraforming is one of my favourites :P
04:21<DiabloD3>oh god
04:21<norbert79>I was more thinking on the sprite-lister, but I guess that came with the scenario and developer tools :)
04:21<DiabloD3>the new bridges
04:21<DiabloD3><3
04:21<@Terkhen>yes, the newgrf debugging stuff is a awesome too :)
04:22<norbert79>And it works nice, had to update some of the NewGRF's for my older savegames, I found those right after that
04:22<norbert79>DiabloD3: Are those new bridges visible using the original windows GRF set too, or are those with OpenGFX?
04:25<DiabloD3>I think Im using OpenGFX
04:25<DiabloD3>this is the total bridge renewal set
04:26<norbert79>DiabloD3: Ah, right, I am using that too
04:27<DiabloD3>I dont think I like 2cc though
04:27<DiabloD3>it makes stuff too complezx
04:29<MNIM>Diablo: You should play through a whole game, say, 1900 to 2100
04:29<DiabloD3>MNIM: I have many times
04:29<MNIM>and limit yourself to one region
04:30<DiabloD3>MNIM: dude, Ive sat down and played ottd 12 hours in a row quite a few times
04:30<MNIM>I, for example, only use euro trains, preferably dutch, and only an occasional american monster for the heaviest trains
04:30<DiabloD3>Im just getting tired of the same old same old
04:30<MNIM>well, don't we all
04:32<@Terkhen>IIRC the latest version of 2cc does not implement region limits
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04:32<DiabloD3>whats the best train set?
04:33<Elukka>there is no one best train set
04:33<DiabloD3>yeah, but whats really popular?
04:33<@Terkhen>every set has its share of fans and detractors :)
04:33<DiabloD3>heh
04:33<DiabloD3>whats something that would really wow people
04:34<@Terkhen>no trains! use trucks instead
04:34<DiabloD3>Terkhen: I do that a lot already
04:34<DiabloD3>thats why I hate servers that have low veh limits
04:34*Terkhen hit a 2500 limit once
04:34<MNIM>Terkhen: true, that's why I do it myself
04:34<DiabloD3>a lot of servers do shit like enforce a 100 limit
04:35<Elukka>Terkhen: did your CPU melt?
04:35<DiabloD3>how well can this handle multiple train grfs?
04:37<@Terkhen>Elukka: no, it takes about 5000 vehicles / 300 ships for that
04:37<Elukka>is that when your CPU gets hot enough to undergo fusion
04:37<DiabloD3>lol
04:37<@Terkhen>no, that's when the noises start scaring me and I stop testing performance
04:37<DiabloD3>the download count on banannas is useful, right?
04:42<DiabloD3>btw, whats the limit of boat size in ottd?
04:42<DiabloD3>because I'd love to see absolutely goddamned huge ships
04:46<DiabloD3>like, they have tankers out there, the largest in the world, that can hold 3.1 million barrels
04:46<DiabloD3>and they're 1250 feet long
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05:56<DiabloD3>hrm
06:00<DiabloD3>wtf is pj1k?
06:00<@peter1138>jfgi
06:00<DiabloD3>is it just a list?
06:11<DiabloD3>hrm, apparently nars and ukrs2 are the big train sets
06:11<DiabloD3>if you're not using 2cc that is
06:11<Elukka>nars2 and ukrs rather
06:11<Elukka>ukrs2 isn't done
06:11<Elukka>dbsetxl too
06:11<Elukka>it's older but it's excellent
06:11<DiabloD3>so I shouldnt use ukrs2?
06:12<Elukka>well it's only got a comparatively small amount of trains
06:12<DiabloD3>yeah but ukrs isnt compatible with nars
06:12<TrueBrain>NOTICE: wiki.openttd.org will be unreachable for a few minutes while we sync the files to a new place (internally)
06:13<Elukka>because it's rather older
06:13<DiabloD3>and dbsetxl is automatically out because it only runs on temperate
06:14<Elukka>well you can use ukrs2
06:14<Elukka>it just does't have modern trains yet
06:14<DiabloD3>yeah, but if I throw in nars as well, Im fine, right?
06:16<Elukka>yup
06:16<TrueBrain>and wiki.openttd.org is back online
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06:18<DiabloD3>okay thus far
06:18<DiabloD3>av8, bigger train depot, city statios, all of ecs, egrvts, fish, heqs, industrial stations renewal, long vehicles, nars, total bridge renewal, ukrs2, ukrs2+
06:20<DiabloD3>and maybe total town replacement as well
06:20<Elukka>definitely recommend that
06:23<DiabloD3>anything else Im missing?
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06:33<DiabloD3>and lets throw in opengfx+ trees
06:34<@planetmaker>you don't need them, if you use OpenGFX
06:34<DiabloD3>ahh
06:35<DiabloD3>but I want better trees :<
06:35<@planetmaker>well. they're the same?
06:35<@planetmaker>unless you use an opengfx older than 0.3.4
06:36<DiabloD3>no I use whatever the newest is
06:36<@planetmaker>'newest' is always a good description :-P
06:36<DiabloD3>=P
06:36<@planetmaker>probably only I have the 'newest' ;-)
06:36<@planetmaker>and probably I'm the only one who can actually claim that an be right atm
06:39*DiabloD3 ponders absolutely fucking gigantic trains
06:46<DiabloD3>so I wonder how hard it is to setup a server now
06:50<b_jonas>city statinos? I'll have to try that.
06:50<b_jonas>I'm playing industrial stations but I'd like some variance in passenger stations too.
06:53<norbert79>DiabloD3: Setting up a server in general is a process taking an hour in worst case unless you want to have scripted enviroment
06:54<norbert79>DiabloD3: It takes a bit until everything is in it's place and all the addons are working, advanced settings well set
06:54<norbert79>DiabloD3: But scripting the hosting enviroment takes even more
06:54<DiabloD3>norbert79: how so?
06:55<norbert79>DiabloD3: Well, take a look at Luukland's Servers. Those are highly scripted
06:55<DiabloD3>I wonder if I can just steal his stuff
06:55<norbert79>DiabloD3: It would take me some while until I could figure out how they work
06:55<norbert79>DiabloD3: No, yíou cannot and it's not really a nice thing even thinking
06:55<@planetmaker>they're heavily hacked versions...
06:56<DiabloD3>norbert79: erm, the newgrfs he uses are public
06:56<@planetmaker>and fake the version they claim
06:56<norbert79>planetmaker: I thought it's just regular OpenTTD with addons and scripts...
06:56<norbert79>planetmaker: I see
06:56<@planetmaker>oh, not at all
06:56<DiabloD3>=|
06:56<norbert79>DiabloD3: NewGRF != scripts :)
06:56<DiabloD3>I should go bitch at him for awhile
06:56<@planetmaker>it's just hacked that it works for regular clients somewhat
06:56<norbert79>DiabloD3: A NewGRF is one thing, but giving it functionality of IRC connection and such takes lot more
06:57<norbert79>DiabloD3: I doubt that begging for his code will do any good. Discover the possibilites for yourself! Like try to run the hosting enviroment ina different enviroment, or try to script it a bit
06:57<DiabloD3>norbert79: lol "different"
06:58<@planetmaker>there are lot of options without hacking OpenTTD
06:58<DiabloD3>I'd have to go see if I could get plan9 working in xen if I wanted different
07:00<norbert79>DiabloD3: Well, you asked how difficult opening an OpenTTD server might be, yet if you are so skilled, I you can answer that for yourself then :)
07:00<norbert79>...I think you can...
07:00<@planetmaker>+1 @ norbert79 :-)
07:00<DiabloD3>norbert79: well know, I asked if it got any easier
07:01<DiabloD3>*no
07:01<norbert79>DiabloD3: Oh, so you are already having one, what is it's name?
07:01<DiabloD3>I used to have one a few years back
07:02<norbert79>DiabloD3: Well, in that case I think it's worth revieweing all the changes. Lot has changed since 0.75 (?)
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07:02<DiabloD3>yeah it was pre-1.0
07:03<norbert79>But I think you are skilled enough to get that done
07:03<TrueBrain>norbert79: be careful how far you stick that stick up his ass :D
07:04<norbert79>TrueBrain: :D
07:04<DiabloD3>heh, well this was a short attempt
07:04<DiabloD3>alpine doesnt have liblzma
07:07<norbert79>Hmm, I think my hosted server will be based on a Dutch scenario. I fall in love in Holland since New Kids...
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07:08<_1009>exit
07:08<_1009>Err.
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07:09<norbert79>:)
07:09<DiabloD3>heh
07:09<TrueBrain>always happy when he visits us :D
07:09<norbert79>Lol
07:09<norbert79>I wonder what his reaction might have been if I would have mentioned New Kids Turbo with him online...
07:10<norbert79>Oh well, maybe some other time
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07:11<TramOfDeath>0hai
07:12<norbert79>0hai to you too
07:12<TramOfDeath>Where can I get ICU for Debian/Ubuntu?
07:12<norbert79>ICU?
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>in your preferred package manager
07:13<TramOfDeath>International Components for Unicode.
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: the library that handles right-to-left typing etc.
07:13<norbert79>TramOfDeath: That comes with default install, but I would advise you to http://packages.debian.org
07:13<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Oh, that
07:13<TramOfDeath>Actually I'm using Puppy Linux that is semi-compatible with Ubuntu Lucid.
07:13<DiabloD3>I think he meant that he doesnt understand hes supposed to install libicu-dev as well
07:13<TramOfDeath>!!!
07:14<TramOfDeath>1.1.1 worked ok on Puppy, but 1.1.2 says can't find libicui18n.so.44
07:14<norbert79>TramOfDeath: Wait, moment, showing it for you
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>TramOfDeath: that's a bug in the compile farm, use 1.1.3-RC1 instead
07:14<norbert79>TramOfDeath: Or you can stick to the Lucid copy
07:15<norbert79>TramOfDeath: That should work, if not, I can tell you the package missing
07:15<TramOfDeath>oh, so it's a compile bug... I don't like using betas so I'll wait for 1.1.3
07:15<norbert79>TramOfDeath: Actually there is just a need of installing one additional package, did that too, since that 1.1.2 works like charm
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>TramOfDeath: how are we supposed to know whether it works now again, if nobody tests it?
07:16<TramOfDeath>The ok, I'll get it - but I'll name the file something like openttd_rc just in case
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>sure, don't need to overwrite your old copy
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07:17<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: I normally test Generic 32 bit and sometimes the debina versions, owning a Lucid.
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: but nobody caught the compile bug in 1.1.2-RCx
07:18<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Actually I just wondered if it wasn't by accident, since I think you or womeone else complained about the age of statically linked libraries
07:18<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: So I thought this is a new policy...
07:20<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Yet of course I also find myself comfortable having less packages to be installed.
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07:35<TramOfDeath>bk
07:35<norbert79>wb
07:35<TramOfDeath>report: icu issue is gone in 1.1.3-rc1
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07:36<Eddi|zuHause>TramOfDeath: good.
07:36<@Terkhen>what icu issue?
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: generic binary static linking issue
07:37<TramOfDeath>so generic binary becomes f15-only
07:37<norbert79>Why?
07:37<TramOfDeath>with rc1 it's back to being generic
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07:37<TramOfDeath>1.1.2 is only working on f15 due to the issue
07:38<norbert79>TramOfDeath: Not really, it also works on my Lucid with the addition of installing 2 more packages.
07:38<norbert79>TramOfDeath: It didn't take more, than 5 minutes to get it done
07:39<TramOfDeath>Computing consists of malfunctions
07:39<norbert79>TramOfDeath: libicu42 and liblzo2-2 solved my problem
07:40<@Terkhen>ok :)
07:40<TramOfDeath>Puppy doesn't have APT so it would take ages to blow the poop away.
07:40<norbert79>TramOfDeath: You told me, that it supports debian packages. Both are available for Lucid
07:41<TramOfDeath>It does support deb packages... once you could find them without APT
07:41<norbert79>TramOfDeath: http://packages.debian.org and http://packages.ubuntu.com
07:41<norbert79>Satisfied? :)
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>why are you still discussing this?
07:42<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Good point... Just tried to be helpful.
07:43*TramOfDeath will wait for 1.1.3 then, since it has the goo poo removed
07:44<TramOfDeath>Ubuntu packages depo shows libicu is not found
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09:10<@Belugas>hello
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09:20<norbert79>Hello Belugas
09:21<TrueBrain>NOTICE: bugs.openttd.org will be unreachable for a few minutes while we sync the files to a new place (internally)
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09:28<dihedral>\o/
09:30<TrueBrain>and bugs.openttd.org is back online
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11:11<__ln__>http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/uutiset/mediait/netti/1206201-max555x555.jpg
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>the empire state building originally was intended as docking point for airships
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12:03<MNIM>hmmmh
12:04<MNIM>why has nobody ever built that in ottd?
12:05<__ln__>because.
12:05<MNIM>I want to have my airships dock in the city, but the heliport is unavailable during the golden age of airships
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12:43<TWerkhoven>create a airship-field/building grf?
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12:47<@planetmaker>MNIM: make a feature request for ogfx+airports
12:47<@planetmaker>sounds like a sensible addition
12:48<@planetmaker>it's relativly easy to add, I guess. It just needs a (or two or three or four) sprites
12:50<MNIM>Would two squares be realistic? one with a empire state building-like peak to dock on, and one to hang the airship over (and to disembark, kinda awkward to disembark into nothing but air
12:54<@planetmaker>there are heliports with 1,4 and 8 tiles footprint.
12:55<@planetmaker>If you just want a place for landing without servicing, 1...3 tiles is feasible. With servicing requires at least the 2x2 heliport statemachine
12:56<TinoDidriksen>I read that as hellport and wondered which direction you were taking TTD...
12:59<@planetmaker>yeah. You _can_ also design a hell port ;-)
12:59<@planetmaker>You'd need to draw a lot of new industry sprites and house sprites then
12:59<@planetmaker>"soul squeezer"
13:00<@planetmaker>etc some food plant which accepts PAX
13:00<MNIM>hmmmmh.
13:00<MNIM>imagine this
13:01<MNIM>how lazy I am.
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>you can reuse the mars transformation set for the landscape ;)
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13:04<MNIM>I'm considering signing up to the forum to make the request, but I don't feel like signing up to /another/ forum
13:05<@planetmaker>that speaks volumes on how much you cherish your idea
13:06<MNIM>well, it's less to do with the idea and more that Im more a kind of pessimist.
13:09<@planetmaker>of course.
13:12<Pinkbeast>Someone might well do it, early starts seem to be the flavour of the month.
13:12<Pinkbeast>But OTOH I don't think the Empire State idea ever really worked well, and IRL the infrastructure for Zeppelins was monstrously huge
13:14<MNIM>I think the issue with the whole empire state idea is that you had a place to anchor, but disembarking was another thing
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13:41<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know how it was planned to work, but the lower platform was supposed to have boarding facilites
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>i also don't know if it was ever used as such
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22931 /trunk/src/lang/ (slovak.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: hungarian - 4 changes by
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 16 changes by Peymanpn
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: slovak - 28 changes by klingacik
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13:50<Eddi|zuHause>err... something
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>'s wrong with hungarian
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>apparently
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14:07<MNIM>hmmmh
14:07<MNIM>is it actually possible to add airport types via newgrf?
14:09<@planetmaker>Why do you think I told you to make a feature request in an airport newgrf?
14:12<MNIM>well, I suppose you could also replace say, the heliport as some newgrfs do
14:12<@planetmaker>I didn't suggest that
14:12<MNIM>but I haven't seen any operational newgrfs that actually add an airport on top of the defaults
14:12<MNIM>I could be looking with the back of my head, of course
14:12<@planetmaker>I suggested to make a feature request for a "heli" port suited for zeppelins
14:12<@planetmaker>And you not having seen that doesn't mean it's not possible. Well.
14:13<MNIM>you're right. I have linux habits.
14:13<MNIM>'if you want something made, it probably already has been done'
14:14<@planetmaker>I didn't say that either :-P
14:14<MNIM>hmmmh. did I place that 'has' correctly?
14:14<@planetmaker>All I said is "it's possible. Suggest to add it to ogfx+airports"
14:15<MNIM>can I quote you on that? ;P
14:15<@planetmaker>yes. It's (partially) my NewGRF.
14:15<@planetmaker>And I've done so before
14:15<@planetmaker>Just had and have no graphics for that
14:16<@planetmaker>But the set has a graphics artist...
14:19<MNIM>hmmmhm, hahahaha
14:19*MNIM reads rules on the forum
14:19<MNIM>irc rules: kicks for: 2. Excessive lameness (l33t n1x0rs)
14:20<MNIM>bravo, bravo
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14:29<appe>i think i just found a major bug
14:30<appe>a train vanished in thin air.
14:30<@Terkhen>do you have a savegame from before it happened?
14:30*Terkhen ponders alien abduction
14:30<MNIM>maybe it got eaten by a UFO?
14:30<MNIM>*ninja'd*
14:30<MNIM>dagnabbit
14:30<@Terkhen>:P
14:32<appe>Terkhen: no, i dont.
14:32<@Terkhen>any method to reproduce?
14:34<MNIM>http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/1/1/2248324/OTTD/IndustrialStation.png
14:34<MNIM>My industrial station is starting to take shape
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14:39<Wolf01>hello
14:39<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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15:32<appe>http://gyazo.com/e661342226689064493aa3ceecd719cf.png
15:32<appe>thick :<
15:32<appe>MNIM: jesus, what kind of grf is that?
15:33<MNIM>my station?
15:33<MNIM>multiple
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15:37<MNIM>I think in that picture alone, there's multiple ECS industry vectors, eGRVTS, NuTracks, OpenGFX+landscape, OpenGFX+trees, DWE stations, CHIPS stationset, Industrial Stations renewal, TTRS 3, and TBRS
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>and about as many graphical glitches
15:41<MNIM>The only real graphical 'glitch' is the bridges not matching with the roads
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15:46<Eddi|zuHause>and the roadside not matching the surrounding grass?
15:46<Eddi|zuHause>and the "planning tracks" bridges?
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15:47<frosch123>do planning tracks count as eye-candy?
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it'd work better with abandoned tracks, imho
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>or "not yet constructed" rails with existing trackbed
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15:49<frosch123>that does not exactly answer my question :)
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what your question actually was
15:51<frosch123>what's the point of planning tracks?
15:51<frosch123>i see neither a gameplay nor a eyecandy use in them
15:52<@planetmaker>"cheap blocking" ;-)
15:52<frosch123>with 15 million in the bank?
15:52<@planetmaker>:-)
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15:55<valhallasw>frosch123: it's better than the 'bought land' tiles, I guess
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>the main problem that keeps you from "planning" tracks with the "planning tracks" is that you still ruin your town rating, and you still pay immense amounts of money for terraforming and foundations
15:56<SpComb>planning tracks?
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15:58<SpComb>ah, MNIM's screenshot
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16:01<MNIM>the planning track bridges are okay, they're counted as monorail
16:01<MNIM>and yeah, I forgot the road sides mismatch
16:02<MNIM>mostly it's newgrf mismatches
16:02<MNIM>or rather, incompatibilities
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's exactly what i'm talking about...
16:05<b_jonas>okay, but what are those big buildings? are they some kind of industry?
16:06<MNIM>yeah
16:06<MNIM>the upper one is a vehicle factory
16:06<b_jonas>all of it?
16:06<MNIM>the lower one (at the seaside) is a glass factory
16:06<MNIM>yeap
16:06<b_jonas>it's large
16:06<b_jonas>I see
16:06<MNIM>one of the largest
16:07<b_jonas>gives you more place for your stations :-)
16:08<b_jonas>the monorail bridge with a pillar right on the railway track also looks a bit strange
16:08<b_jonas>perhaps it was designed before the better tracks under bridges got allowed
16:09<MNIM>yeah, bridge pillars and diagonal rails don't go well together
16:09<MNIM>anyway, it's 'planning track'
16:10<MNIM>so you can cheaply layout future tracks where there's no traffic for them yet
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16:15<Eddi|zuHause>bridge pillar placement has not changed since original TT...
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>you can't really blame the newgrfs for that
16:17<@peter1138>are you sure?
16:17<b_jonas>well, Locomotion hides bridge pillars if something is under, but then that has other problems (floating railways)
16:18<b_jonas>maybe there should be graphics for after 2050 that shows jets shooting down from the platforms instead of pillars
16:19<MNIM>hmmmh. Rollercoaster tycoon doesn't have the problem.
16:19<MNIM>while it is in fact (partially) based on the same engine
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i can blame he-who-has-patches-for-it that he doesn't have a patch for action1/2/3 for bridges
16:20<b_jonas>if the bridge pillars are thin, they can just be in the corners of squares where no rail can possibly be -- though with signals things can get very crowded
16:20<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: bridge pillar placement has changed at least 3 times
16:20<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, i did have a patch for that...
16:20<b_jonas>frosch123: sure, for high bridges and the like
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i was speaking present tense :)
16:21<@peter1138>i probably do still have it :D
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16:23<b_jonas>but then, graphics for signals are hard to get right anyway, even without bridges
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: it's not of much use if it's against r6000 :p
16:26<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, lol, no
16:26<@peter1138>way too late
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>3000 then :p
16:26<@peter1138>--- engine.c (revision 3044)
16:27<@peter1138>5 years ago... man
16:27<andythenorth>I blame he-who-has-patches for tgp
16:27<andythenorth>and he-who-was-patching multi-stop docks :P
16:28<andythenorth>and vehicle ferries
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16:28<b_jonas>multi-stop docks? what are those?
16:28<andythenorth>they're not :(
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16:29<b_jonas>what would they mean?
16:30<@peter1138>multi-stop is the code name for "lots of road stops in one station"
16:31<b_jonas>ah
16:31<b_jonas>yes, I use that, though not like "lots of", only like up to four
16:31<andythenorth>or
16:31<andythenorth>"lots of ships stops in one station"
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>i think 12 was the highest i got
16:33<b_jonas>no, I mean I use it for road vehicles
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>exactly, because it isn't implemented for docs
16:35<b_jonas>yep
16:40<@Terkhen>good night
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17:00<@planetmaker>good night
17:09<appe>http://gyazo.com/fa5a4d003df3ac4e689c5ecd88c25ec4.png
17:09<appe>fucked that up..
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18:31<Wolf01>'night
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22:08<najevi>I have a problem efficiently delivering passengers/mail to and from an airport that I built outside of TownA. Have read about two-way feeders at the wiki and it seems that solution requires 2 airports (yuk!). Is there a way to specify that passengers "enroute from TownA" do _not_ get picked up by your feeder train/bus that delivers passengers _to_ TownA.
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22:29<Elukka>nope
22:30<Elukka>unless you use a cargo destinations patch like yacd or cargodist which in my opinion makes it much better
22:30<Elukka>makes passengers know where to go and they'll take any vehicle and make transfers by themselves to get there
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 15 00:00:01 2011