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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-15

---Logopened Thu Sep 15 00:00:01 2011
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02:40<appe>why can't you use a normal feeding service?
02:41<appe>or am i failing to see the problem :)
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03:13<norbert79>Morning dihedral
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03:14<norbert79>Elukka: Why so many angles?
03:14<Elukka>CETS has many an agle
03:15<Elukka>goes smoother over corners
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03:17<Elukka>central european train set
03:17<norbert79>I see, but does OpenTTD make use of all these angles?
03:17<Elukka>it does
03:18<Elukka>all the grf has are green template boxes now, but those boxes look good in corners!
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03:19<norbert79>Well, one of the changes I wasn't aware of. NewGRF supporting more angles...
03:19<norbert79>But I guess it's kinda an animation trick... :)
03:19<norbert79>It will be shown as sequences
03:20<norbert79>but then still using the regular angles
03:24<norbert79>Moin moin
03:24<@planetmaker>norbert79: it's nothing new. That would in principle work for years
03:25<@planetmaker>just no-one wrote a newgrf like that
03:25<norbert79>planetmaker: New for me, never seen any GRF's yet supporting it
03:25<norbert79>planetmaker: Exactly :)
03:25<Elukka>yeah i don't think any other grf has done it so far
03:26<@planetmaker>it has its problems which are not yet entirely resolved
03:27<norbert79>I guess graphical glitches and such
03:28<@planetmaker>well... but mostly on grounds that it uses wagons longer than half a tile
03:28<Elukka>planetmaker: what kind of graphical glitches can be expected by using wagons that long?
03:28<Elukka>nothing too crippling i hope
03:29<Elukka>long vehicles 4 certainly has its share of glitches but i'm fine with them
03:30<Elukka>not too bad, then :)
03:30<Elukka>certainly worth it
03:30<@planetmaker>well. I guess we only want to release it with most glitches gone ;-)
03:35<Elukka>how unusual
03:35<Elukka>my problem with this wagon is that i can fit too many windows
03:40<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: is there any preference regarding which end of the compartment coaches the brakeman's cabin should go?
03:40<@planetmaker> <-- see the glitches yourself with the test NewGRF, if you like
03:42<Elukka>doesn't that require some sort of patch?
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03:45<@planetmaker>I don't think so
03:47<Elukka>i believe eddi mentioned the newest release doesn't work so well with unpatched ottd
03:47<Elukka>can't hurt to try though
03:49<@planetmaker>yes, it will need a non-existing var
03:49*andythenorth tries the grf
03:50<andythenorth>how quaint
03:50<andythenorth>next you'll be wanting curved tracks :)
03:50<Elukka>well, it doesn't have the longest wagons but what's there seems to work fine
03:50<Elukka>can't wait until they have graphics :P
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03:53<norbert79>Elukka: Screenshots please :))
03:53<Elukka>of it working fine?
03:53<norbert79>I am curious
03:55<@planetmaker>download and test?
03:55<@planetmaker>screenshots don't really show it
03:55<norbert79>planetmaker: Not possible atm
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03:56<norbert79>planetmaker: Doubt my employer would hooray my enthusiasm for the game...
03:57<Elukka>beat me to it with a better screen :P
03:57<Elukka>it does look more noticeable in motion
03:57<Elukka>and... huh. why is my max train length so short? is that a patch option somewhere that i forgot to increase when i upgraded?
03:58<@planetmaker>it's an adv. setting somewhere
04:00<@Terkhen>good morning
04:01<norbert79>Elukka: Not bad, but on your screen the first wagon looks a bit weird, like it would flip on it's side already
04:01<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
04:01<norbert79>Moin Terkhen
04:02<@planetmaker>and we already thought we could use those as the final graphics, norbert79! ;-)
04:02<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, I smell a bit of sarcasm here :D
04:03<norbert79>planetmaker: Just wanted to point out, that the sprite would need a bit of tuning ;-)
04:05<norbert79>Yet it looks cool, no more edgy movement
04:05<Elukka>i think my sprites might be inching slightly more towards 'decent enough'
04:08<DiabloD3>you know
04:08<DiabloD3>openttd should have font settings in the gui settings dialog
04:08<Elukka>speaking of sprites...
04:08<norbert79>DiabloD3: There was a patch present for that, but it raises problems with ammount of fonts and/or font caches.
04:09<Elukka>full length wagons are lovely to draw
04:09<norbert79>DiabloD3: You should also not forget, that many systems use different font-systems
04:09<DiabloD3>norbert79: openttd supports bitmap fonts
04:09<DiabloD3>nothing stops it from just including more sizes.
04:10<@planetmaker>hm... But DiabloD3 didn't draw them!
04:10<norbert79>DiabloD3: And what about computers, where there are tousands of fonts present? Not necessary using more fonts, feel free editing the ini file. The only nice thing would be just adding the possibility editing those lines from the GUI, but without a selection list...
04:10<@planetmaker>and on 2nd thought: no, I wouldn't want to include them
04:10<norbert79>planetmaker: Ah, right, how dumb I am, he is so skilled... :)
04:10<DiabloD3>norbert79: Im not saying use fonts from the system
04:10<@planetmaker>norbert79: very yes.
04:10<@planetmaker>(not you dum)
04:10<DiabloD3>the tt font drawer is interesting, but ttd is largely a bitmap font game
04:10<norbert79>DiabloD3: Besides, the problem also comes with Copyrights.
04:11<DiabloD3>yes, and for example X's fonts are under a liberal license.
04:11<norbert79>DiabloD3: And the game can handle TTF's too
04:11<DiabloD3>yes, the game can, Im using a ttf font
04:11<DiabloD3>I'd rather not.
04:11<norbert79>DiabloD3: Use the defaults then :)
04:11<DiabloD3>the defaults are too small
04:11<@planetmaker>a font selector would only make those you have available
04:11<norbert79>Some cannot be satisifed...
04:11<DiabloD3>planetmaker: not if it just says "small, medium, and large"
04:12<@planetmaker>it would
04:12<DiabloD3>norbert79: Im on 1920x1200 on a 26".
04:12<norbert79>small = a font for all those texts, which are tiny, like the graphs...
04:12<norbert79>medium = texts for status windows
04:12<norbert79>large = News articles
04:12<DiabloD3>norbert79: no no no
04:12<DiabloD3>small medium and large for medium.
04:12<norbert79>set them to 16 or 24 pts then
04:12<norbert79>you can set the font size too
04:12<DiabloD3>yes I did
04:13<DiabloD3>but you cant set the font size on the default font
04:13<norbert79>Then why crying about it?
04:13<norbert79>Define = Default
04:13<norbert79>Define it.. What's the 'Default' font?
04:13<@planetmaker>DiabloD3: you cannot scale the default fonts
04:13<@planetmaker>they're pixel images
04:13<DiabloD3>planetmaker: exactly, because it doesnt include multiple sizes
04:13<DiabloD3>what Im saying is, it should
04:13<@planetmaker>DiabloD3: and I say it shouldn't
04:14<DiabloD3>planetmaker: it costs nothing to include more sizes.
04:14<@planetmaker>we have sytem fonts for those who don't like the sizes which are shipped
04:14<norbert79>You can still create a GRF file solving this problem any time you wish :)
04:14<@planetmaker>DiabloD3: good. Please implement a patch. And get drawing
04:14<@planetmaker>It costs nothing, right?
04:14<DiabloD3>whats your obsession with drawing?
04:14<DiabloD3>use existing fonts.
04:14<@planetmaker>... ? Where do you think the letters will come from?
04:14<@planetmaker>which existing?
04:14<norbert79>DiabloD3: You know, that's what it is called COPYRIGHT
04:15<@planetmaker>Do you think you can steal?
04:15<DiabloD3>norbert79: yes, and theres this thing called LICENSING
04:15<norbert79>DiabloD3: Open Source game or not, if you still you get your *ss fried about that
04:15<DiabloD3>you will get your ass fried using an open source font in an open source game/
04:15<@planetmaker>DiabloD3: and those fonts are... hold your breath... truetype mostly
04:15<norbert79>DiabloD3: Ok, show me ONE font, which would fit the game PERFECTLY and the owner would be happy using it for the game?
04:15<DiabloD3>Someone needs to have a long conversation with a lawyer.
04:16<@planetmaker>you do that
04:16<DiabloD3>planetmaker: X has a lot of MIT licensed bitmap fonts that are readable.
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04:16<norbert79>DiabloD3: Is the MIT license compatible with GPL?
04:16<norbert79>DiabloD3: Doubt HARDLY
04:16<norbert79>red it
04:16<norbert79>read it
04:16<DiabloD3>FSF declared it so already.
04:16<DiabloD3>ie, a group of lawyers.
04:17<norbert79>DiabloD3: Can you provide also sources to this statement?
04:17<@planetmaker>good. As it was said that it costs me nothing... I'm still waiting :-)
04:17<norbert79>planetmaker: Som do I
04:17<norbert79>planetmaker: -m
04:18<DiabloD3>norbert79: I heard there was this website called google.
04:18<norbert79>DiabloD3: I am fine with the built in one dude, it's your turn...
04:18<norbert79>DiabloD3: You want to have them inside the game. Work for it.
04:20<norbert79>planetmaker: Heh, I was almost told, that I should work this, to get his highness satisifed.. Interesting contribution model as I see :)
04:20<DiabloD3>norbert79: are you even a openttd dev? why am I discussing this with you?
04:20<norbert79>DiabloD3: Just one sentence: Good luck :D
04:20<@planetmaker>DiabloD3: but norbert is 100% right :-)
04:21<DiabloD3>planetmaker: not really.
04:21<DiabloD3>its a long standing bug.
04:21<@planetmaker>lool :-)
04:21<DiabloD3>I have already given a solution that would be appropriate.
04:21<norbert79>DiabloD3: Never seen any bug listing this as a bug, show us :)
04:21<@planetmaker>you can freely configure your font and size in the ini file
04:22<@planetmaker>norbert79: there's even somewhere (a probably meanwhile a bit outdated) patch to add a gui to font selection
04:22<DiabloD3>You know what, this is why no one contributes to this fucking game.
04:22<@planetmaker>also ... adding another bitmap font is mostly pointless
04:22<norbert79>planetmaker: That's what I have mentioned already, and asked about the font caches there... FOllowed up that a bit, since being a typhile :)
04:22<@planetmaker>there's more languages which require more characters than the default fonts provide
04:22<DiabloD3>You make FOSS look bad.
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04:23<norbert79>Wth? :D
04:23<@planetmaker>looool :-)
04:23<norbert79>Did he even know who is he addressing? In any case, did he ever red the list of contributors? Eh, never mind, this was just weird...
04:24<@planetmaker>I couldn't care less :-)
04:24<norbert79>Besides, I think OpenTTD has the best support anyway, I am happy to see the binaries provided.
04:24<blathijs>norbert79: Btw, I think MIT is GPL-compatible, FWIW
04:24<@planetmaker>in a (technical) discussion it shouldn't matter whether someone can commit to the repo or not. But there was not technical argument from his side
04:25<@planetmaker>yes, MIT should be compatible with GPL (not vice versa, though)
04:25<norbert79>blathijs: Probably, but in either way if he would like to implement changes he would still need to work on it. He also needs to provide the documentation and sources and case pictures as well, which can at least make anyone start thinking about using anything new.
04:26<blathijs>norbert79: I was just commenting on that single statement, I haven't read the rest of the discussion
04:26<norbert79>blathijs: it's a bit of a work, but worth the effort, besides, I also felt just a problem with his logic.
04:26<blathijs>but it seems DiabloD3 is still a moron, just like when we banned him a few years ago
04:26<@planetmaker>nah, a font selection GUI wouldn't hurt. That doesn't require adding them to OpenTTD, though
04:26<norbert79>blathijs: He seems like being a kid to me, he still needs to learn, imho.
04:27<@planetmaker>(on the contrary, a font selection GUI would be nice)
04:27<norbert79>planetmaker: Agree, the problem what i see the different font systems used by the systems... Hard to apply it when you have an API at one side and no API or a different one for an another OS.
04:27<norbert79>planetmaker: LibreOffice/OpenOffice solved it somehow, but question comes if it's really necessary to put the effort into.
04:28<@Terkhen>there is a (now outdated) font selection GUI patch in the dev forums
04:28<@Terkhen>but the creator got unmotivated and I wasn't able to get him to finish it :P
04:28<norbert79>Terkhen: Yes, we alreasdy touched it
04:28<@planetmaker>yeah. It misses the OSX side :-P
04:28<@Terkhen>RL is always there
04:28<norbert79>Terkhen: Yes, also followed that up :)
04:29<@planetmaker>(but missing it on one OS or another is not the argument to skip it, if it's feasible to implement in the same framework)
04:29<norbert79>Terkhen: I touched the topic behalf of my problem back then, because I used to use 8000 Fonts, now limited to 1200, but still that would just cause a mess when in game.
04:29<@Terkhen>yes, we talked about that
04:30<@Terkhen>IIRC he was inclined to implement font caching in a separate thread
04:30<@Terkhen>but I don't remember if it would still need to cache fonts at every startup or not
04:30<norbert79>Manual method would also work fine, instead of adding font-cache creation at start having just a button 're read fonts' would be also nice, imo
04:30<@Terkhen>he was testing with about 200 fonts and it already messed up with performance :P
04:31<@planetmaker>Well, selecting a font needs not be terribly performant. It's a one-time task
04:31<@Terkhen>that suggestion sounds nice, yes... as pm says it is a one time task
04:31<norbert79>planetmaker: Sure, unless you are not a font enthusiastic :D
04:31<@Terkhen>feel free to post it in the patch thread :)
04:32<@planetmaker>scanning NewGRFs also takes looong.
04:33<norbert79>planetmaker: Windows has this issue, that some Printing drivers use Postscript methods, and for this they don't create a system-wide cache, but re-read all the fonts when pressing "Preferences" before printing. I used to wait 30 minutes (!) for being able to switch from A/4 to A/3 :)
04:33<@planetmaker>hm... I wonder whether OpenTTD could cache the info of the scanned NewGRFs and re-scan in a separate thread
04:33<@planetmaker>norbert79: sounds like a PITA ;-)
04:34<@planetmaker>and scanning fonts could be threaded separately, too
04:34<norbert79>planetmaker: Nah, I would still prefer system-wide font cache, but Windows lacks of it. So does ubuntu by now :(
04:34<@planetmaker>norbert79: yes, but that's out of OpenTTD's control
04:34<norbert79>but still makes the GUI for font selecting a bit more problematic
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04:37<@planetmaker>Life is never really easy :-)
04:37<norbert79><sigh>...Aye... :)
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04:56<@planetmaker>dbg: [grf] Unknown StringID 0x000C remapped to STR_EMPTY. Please open a Feature Request if you need it
04:56<@planetmaker>can also be caused by a NewGRF bug :-)
04:59<@planetmaker>feature request: "fix bug in my NewGRF" :-P
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05:06<norbert79>Fun fun fun :)
05:08<@planetmaker>hm... a requirement of 1.5 million engineering supplies per month seems unrealistic ;-)
05:08<@planetmaker>also that they can store 18 million units of those
05:08<@planetmaker>and I doubt they use them efficiently as they claim
05:11<Elukka>and they use them efficiently?!
05:12<@planetmaker>yeah ;-) That's what they claim
05:13<@planetmaker>probably they grab each grain of and and individually weigh, characterize and package it
05:13<@planetmaker>s/and and/sand and/
05:13<Elukka>"Bob? Did you drop that shipment in the pond again?"
05:13<@planetmaker>what shipment?
05:14<@planetmaker>There came a bunch of crazy truck drivers with some garbage...
05:17<MNIM>I love the description of what they do with excess vehicle supplies in first tier industries in ecs
05:17<MNIM>dump truck races FTW! :P
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05:19<Elukka>when i played a game with a bunch of friends, two of us were entirely dedicated to designing new stations... meanwhile, one of us built a hugely expensive hovercraft racetrack
05:19<Elukka>it didn't work terribly well
05:19<Elukka>eddi, how's this
05:20<Elukka>darkened the roof by a notch since
05:22<MNIM>hovercraft racetrack?
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06:01<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: looks nice
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07:26<MNIM>is it possible to make elevated rail?
07:30<@peter1138>yes, just provide a patch ;)
07:30<@peter1138>guess what
07:30<@peter1138>i _don't_ have a patch for that
07:31<b_jonas>does any of you have the problem that you try to abort mouse drags with shift instead of escape outside of openttd?
07:31<b_jonas>such as window resizes
07:31<MNIM>...wait, you can abort mouse drags with shift in ottd?
07:32<b_jonas>MNIM: with some operations at least, and only if you hold down shift as you release the button
07:32<MNIM>oh, it's the cost estimation tool?
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07:32*MNIM learns something new!
07:33<b_jonas>that's actually inherited from ttd
07:33<@planetmaker>technically it doesn't abort it ;-)
07:33<@planetmaker>as it still gives you the cost estimate
07:34<@planetmaker>but it's a good way to avoid deleting the whole map, if you accidentially dragged too much
07:36<b_jonas>also to measure distances: drag level tool, it shows length of sides, hold shift, release it
07:37<b_jonas>so it has at least three uses: cost estimation, length measurement, aborting errors
07:37<MNIM>well, I wouldn't call it a problem, anyway
07:38<MNIM>at least in linux, when I press shift while dragging (a selection) it does indeed abort
07:38<norbert79>MNIM: So does it under Windows too
07:39<b_jonas>it depends on what you do. sadly some programs don't abort even if you press escape.
07:42<erik1984>Didn't know about shift either to 'abort' rail placement (btw hi all ;))
07:43<norbert79>hi erik1984 :) ... Works since TTD :)
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07:44<DiabloD3>how do I check if my server is externally accessable?
07:45<erik1984>There are more of these simple tricks I only recently became aware of. Like closing all windows with DEL
07:45<DiabloD3>erik1984: del is fucking perfect
07:46<erik1984>DiabloD3: if you tell me the name I could see if it pops up in my list of internet games
07:46<DiabloD3>it pops up, but I dont know if people can connect
07:46<Ammler>also helpfs
07:46-!-DiabloD3 is now known as Diablo-D3
07:46<Diablo-D3>silly server stole my -
07:46<Diablo-D3>erik1984: btw, check the ottd wiki for hotkeys
07:47<erik1984>I can see it in my list
07:47<norbert79>erik1984: Seing it in your own list and being able to be seen from Master are two different things. Ports open on your router/network?
07:47<Diablo-D3>erik1984: yes, but can you connect?
07:48<erik1984>Can't try because there is a newgrf mismatch
07:48<Diablo-D3>er, which grf?
07:48<Diablo-D3>it should say in the grf window
07:49<Diablo-D3>because everything Im using is available on bananas
07:49<erik1984>A lot of them, I'll try to get the missing content
07:49<Diablo-D3>ahh, if its missing content, thats a one click download
07:50<Diablo-D3>I wonder why openttd doesnt automatically download
07:50<norbert79> we go again...
07:50<erik1984>joining now
07:50<Diablo-D3>norbert79: hey, is there a key to repeat previous command?
07:50<norbert79>Diablo-D3: I thought you are skilled enough to know that :)
07:50<Diablo-D3>or to clone vehicles faster?
07:50<@planetmaker>openttd should ask for credit card details. And only upon validation of those henceforth automatically download
07:51<norbert79>planetmaker: Ah, right, and it also accepts VISA Electron, right?
07:51<@planetmaker>if money could be successfully transfered, yes ;-)
07:51<@planetmaker>argentum non olet ;-)
07:51<norbert79>planetmaker: I had some issues past month with the transfer, an error message came up, but the connection was ok :S...
07:51<erik1984>I'm in the game
07:51<Diablo-D3>so yay erik connected
07:52<norbert79>planetmaker: Oh well, someone will fix the bug
07:52<Diablo-D3>I wonder if I should reimage my VPS
07:52<Diablo-D3>switch to debian so I can run openttd on it
07:52<@planetmaker>norbert79: as usual: only after credit card validation :-P
07:53<norbert79>I was told, that the best servers are runed on clustered Commodore 64 machines, with the 20 Mhz upgrade (Google for it, it exists), and with the 6501 Ethernet port addon.
07:53<norbert79>For Openttd at least
07:53<@planetmaker>for certain definitions of 'best' that might be true
07:53<@planetmaker>maybe with added liquid helium cooling ;-)
07:54<norbert79>Nah, nitrogene is enough, 6501 would freeze under liqid helium
07:55<Diablo-D3>hrm I need to fix my server :<
07:55<norbert79>Also note for myself: Never cool your beer inside liquid helium
07:55<@planetmaker>hm... how does production level relate to industry output (for primary)?
07:55<@planetmaker>probably action0 properties
07:55<Diablo-D3>norbert79: LOL
07:55<Diablo-D3>note to self: move total bridge below total town
07:56<@planetmaker>norbert79: there's nothing wrong with that. But you need to allow some time before you can serve it as ice cream
07:56<norbert79>planetmaker: But how do I take it out?
07:56<Diablo-D3>beer ice cream?!
07:56<@planetmaker>long pokey stick?
07:57<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: tongs.
07:57<Diablo-D3>and be careful not to drop it
07:57<norbert79>planetmaker: Yeah, might work, if it won't break at ~-270°C :)
07:57<Diablo-D3>alum is easy to shatter at those temps
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08:04<Diablo-D3>can I turn autosave off for servers?
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08:31<MNIM>You know what would be nice?
08:31<andythenorth>many things
08:31<andythenorth>some unmentionable here
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08:31<MNIM>a tool to convert massive amounts of classic signals into signal lights, no matter what type
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>why would you do that?
08:44<norbert79>I understand the logic, I just don't understand by converting you mean converting to one type, or converting a classic one way to a modern light one way signal, or to a plain light one?
08:44<@peter1138>andythenorth, yes, best not to mention multistop docks
08:44<@peter1138>semaphores to lights
08:44*andythenorth doesn't mention multistop docks
08:44<@peter1138>good idea
08:45<@peter1138>mentioning multistop docks would be pointless
08:45<@planetmaker>yeah. It would remind people only about road types. Which shouldn't be mentioned either
08:45<andythenorth>roadtypes :P
08:45<@planetmaker>see. 'shouldn't be mentioned' ;-)
08:46<Diablo-D3>you mean like trucks vs streetcars?
08:46<@planetmaker>like e-rail vs. maglev
08:47<Diablo-D3>that wouldnt make sense for road
08:47<Diablo-D3>since management of roads is by law and the local government
08:47<Diablo-D3>theres no analog in ottd
08:48<andythenorth>good :)
08:48<@planetmaker>we shouldn't have mentioned it anyway
08:48<andythenorth>we can stop discussing it then
08:48<Diablo-D3>roads have also basically not changed since the invention of asphalt
08:48<norbert79>...I guess some experts in this area would have let loose a slight of a scream here...
08:48<Diablo-D3>lol probably
08:49<Diablo-D3>ottd has enough problems with the train fanatics
08:49<norbert79>I was referring to your statement Diablo, don't be so happy about it
08:49<Diablo-D3>norbert79: Im not ignorant of t he history of road
08:49<Diablo-D3>but ottd has no way of really showing stuff
08:50<Diablo-D3>like, we dont pay for maint of roads, just construction
08:50<norbert79>OTTD is no Road-Train-Simulator in any way, it's a Tycoon game
08:50<Diablo-D3>yeah exactly
08:50<norbert79>What's your point then?
08:50<Diablo-D3>it should be fun, challenging, and interesting
08:50<Diablo-D3>multiple road types for the sake of having them makes no sense
08:51<Diablo-D3>roads vs streetcars DOES make sense
08:51<Diablo-D3>but only grfs have those
08:51<andythenorth>it's ok
08:51<andythenorth>don't worry
08:51<andythenorth>all is well
08:51<Diablo-D3>I think I like my ottd setup though
08:51<norbert79>Just one technical contra against your idea: Did you ever considered how much network traffic would this cause?
08:52<Diablo-D3>is network traffic still a concern? its not like people play over dialup anymore
08:52<@planetmaker>norbert79: doesn't matter. The website survived a slashdot ;-)
08:53<norbert79>Diablo-D3: Well, I would still consider running OpenTTD, despite I don't own a Cisco Gigabit Router... Street cars, if it would affect running trucks would be an overkill on the network traffic...
08:53*andythenorth has entered a mad world
08:53<Diablo-D3>norbert79: Im not sure I understand
08:53<Diablo-D3>they already exist in grfs
08:53<Diablo-D3>I have them in my game right now
08:53<norbert79>Diablo-D3: Exactly, you don't
08:53<Diablo-D3>itdoesnt seem to be effecting anything
09:01<norbert79>Diablo-D3: Just for not getting others confused: in the EU we call streetcars "tram" or "trams",
09:02<norbert79>Just a hint not getting us confused
09:03<PeanutHorst>what about streetcars named desire?
09:03<Diablo-D3>norbert79: ottd calls them streetcars
09:03<PeanutHorst>what do you call them?
09:05<@planetmaker>ottd calls them many things... and ottd has a BE (default) and AE version
09:05<lugo>i like 'Bimmelbahn'
09:05<@planetmaker>^ like that
09:06<@planetmaker>and default openttd calls them trams, Diablo-D3
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think "Bimmelbahn" is primarily understood as "tram"
09:06<@planetmaker>you just have them called streetcars as OpenTTD detects that your localization is US
09:06<erik1984>Nice discussions going on here :P
09:06<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: yay
09:06<erik1984>Anyhow have fun people I'm off
09:07<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Aye :)
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09:07<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: No rails needed for "Bimmelbahn", well, not for all :)
09:07<@planetmaker>"Milchkannen-Express" is rather the same as "Bimmelbahn"
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>never heard that...
09:07<norbert79>"Bimmelbahn" on the other hand is shorter :)
09:08<norbert79>Yet the British "Tram" is still the shortest.
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>"Bimmelbahn" means "small branch railway" to me...
09:08<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Lik
09:08<norbert79>Like this one:
09:09<@planetmaker>no, not really
09:09<@planetmaker>though it could count as one. It usually means a real railway
09:10<norbert79>Well, according to the German Wiki planetmaker seems to be closer,
09:10<norbert79>yet in my opinion it's rather how one interprets it
09:10<norbert79>but that comes from cultural differences
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09:26<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r22932 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Fix [FS#4766]: disable the white border on window creation for several windows (based on patch by monoid)
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09:39<norbert79>Afternoon Belugas
09:39<norbert79>Oops, morning for you :)
09:40<@Belugas>heelo to you too, norbert79
09:40<@Belugas>grr.. i need COFEEEEEEEEEEE
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09:50<Diablo-D3>I wonder what would happen if ottd was ran with huge gigantic maps
09:50<Diablo-D3>and had time passage slower
09:52<Elukka>i believe there's patches for both
09:52<lugo>like with bigger maps and daylength patch?
09:52<Elukka>if you wanna try without compiling get chill's pack from the dev forum
09:52<Elukka>i think it has both
09:52<Elukka>maps go up to something ridiculous like 32 000 x 32 000
09:55<Hirundo>that'd OOM any normal computer
09:55<Diablo-D3>define normal
09:55<Diablo-D3>I have 8gb
09:55<Hirundo>just the map would require 9GB
09:55<@planetmaker>@calc 32000*32000*9
09:55<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 9216000000
09:56<@planetmaker>@calc 32000*32000*9 / 1024**3
09:56<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 8.58306884766
09:56<Elukka>i guess openttd just isn't made for anything that big
09:56<Hirundo>Not to mention that running 4 million tile loop calls is not easily done in 30ms
09:56<Pinkbeast>But (while I in no way disagree with the decision to make the map larger than you could possibly want) you wouldn't possibly want a map that big
09:57<@planetmaker>on big enough maps, time passage will be naturally slow ;-)
09:57<norbert79>1024x1024 is already way too much map to fill, and it needs lot of time to be built full
09:57<norbert79>World of OpenTTD... WoO
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09:58<Hirundo>all on 1 cpu core...
09:59<norbert79>Well, it would remind everyone back on older 8 bit times :)
09:59<norbert79>where a loding of one application took between 5-30 minutes
10:02<@planetmaker>nah, never took that long
10:02<@planetmaker>application load times didn't really change
10:02<norbert79>planetmaker: who had an 1541 or 1541-II, those couldn't comply
10:02*planetmaker started on 10MHz 286
10:02<norbert79>planetmaker: But what about those who had only a 1351? :) 300baud/sec for the rules :D
10:02<Diablo-D3>how do I disable specific AIs?
10:02<@planetmaker>norbert79: no internet there
10:03<norbert79>planetmaker: Aw, you have missed a lot
10:03<Diablo-D3>because apparently AIs cant do grfs.
10:03<@planetmaker>it would have been ruining my parents
10:03<norbert79>planetmaker: Have started with Commodore +4... Internet? I used to connect first time to the internet from home around 2000, 56kbit Modem, just for a few hours long
10:03<@planetmaker>yeah... cross-species procreation hardly works
10:04<@planetmaker>norbert79: I had a 33kbit modem first...
10:04<@planetmaker>in ... 1997 or so
10:05<norbert79>well, I started with Commodore +4, then 486-Dx40 4MB RAm, no soundcard or CD-ROM back in 1996
10:05<norbert79>Commodore +4 in 1987
10:05<norbert79>imported from Austria
10:05<@planetmaker>he :-)
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10:05<norbert79>My grandfather has bought it for me
10:05<Elukka>out of curiosity...
10:05<Elukka>how impossible is the idea that some day openttd will be multithreaded?
10:06<Elukka>unless it already is, i dunno
10:06<@planetmaker>welcome, Hirundo ;-)
10:06<Hirundo>it already is in some parts; world generation, saving, newgrf scanning AFAIK
10:07<@planetmaker>Elukka: as impossible as re-writing the internals completely
10:07<Pinkbeast>Elukka> I am no expert but I think the prospects of doing so for the normal work of moving vehicles is impossibly remote. Bits of the GUI, _maybe_.
10:07<Hirundo>Problem is that all actions must execute in the same order across multiple clients
10:08<@planetmaker>_or_ the architecture wrt client / server needs complete re-design
10:08<norbert79>Elukka: Workaround would be using clusters and running OpenTTD on them :))
10:08<@planetmaker>yeah... the mobile-phone-pocket cluster :-P
10:09*Diablo-D3 started with a 6mhz 8088 with 512kb of memory AFTER upgrade
10:09<Elukka>and now there's 1.2 ghz dual core phones
10:09<Diablo-D3>Elukka: mhz myth
10:10<Diablo-D3>not all mhz are created equal
10:10<Pinkbeast>Or that ordering of actions could be relaxed. Every vehicle works out where it is after a tick simultaneously, but everything only uses the state at the start of the tick. Maybe? # yes this would also be _very hard_
10:10<Elukka>yeah i know, a lot of it is about cpu architecture
10:10<Diablo-D3>0.5ghz G4s were pretty goddamned fast when all we had was 1.5ghz P3s
10:10<Pinkbeast>Diablo> 512K? Tee hee.
10:10<Diablo-D3>Pinkbeast: AFTER upgrade
10:10<Hirundo>Pinkbeast: So you'd need to backup the entire game state at the start of each tick?
10:10<Elukka>a 2.4 ghz i5 is lightyears beyond a 3 ghz p4
10:10<Diablo-D3>I think it was like 128 to start with
10:10<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast: and how would you avoid two vehicles then occupying the same spot?
10:10<Hirundo>And how about two trains that decide to enter the same signal block?
10:10<Elukka>even without considering the extra cores
10:11<Diablo-D3>Elukka: yeah, but it also has 2 int alus and 4 float alus per core
10:11<Elukka>point is, it's still pretty amazing :P
10:11<Diablo-D3>Elukka: which makes it twice as powerful as a P4 flat out
10:11<V453000>planetmaker: new era of openttd - without signals?
10:11<Diablo-D3>plus they finally pulled their head out of their ass and went back to using the P6 family
10:12<@planetmaker>and road vehicles behaving like ships. cool!
10:12<@planetmaker>easy peasy building
10:12<Diablo-D3>the core 1 was a pentium 3++ (which survived through the pentium-m family)
10:12<Elukka>my phone (which was cheap, none of that 600 eur iphone bull) loads websites and runs flash content considerably smoother than my dad's computer
10:12<Pinkbeast>Hirundo> Trains already have to notice in advance they're going to stop at a signal.
10:12<Diablo-D3>Elukka: well, look at webkit
10:12<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, noone really considered cars/trucks could leave the roads... :)
10:12<Diablo-D3>Elukka: its faster than netscape 4 on a 486.
10:12<Diablo-D3>at least when you're not throwing in dumb shit like bloated js shit
10:13<@planetmaker>norbert79: I rather meant it like "passing through eachother all the time"
10:13<Diablo-D3>hrm, you know what?
10:13<Diablo-D3>why isnt there offroad vehicles in ottd
10:13<Diablo-D3>that could be lol
10:13<Hirundo>Pinkbeast: There is IIRC *some* braking before a red signal, but the final stop/pass check is only done once
10:13<Diablo-D3>oh hey
10:13<Diablo-D3>that reminds me
10:14<Diablo-D3>you know how in mp people use trains to kill enemy vehicles?
10:14<Pinkbeast>Hirundo> Right, but that doesn't prevent simultaneity.
10:14<Elukka>what if road vehicles pathed freely across the landscape and created road sprites whereever they go :P
10:14<Diablo-D3>why dont vehicles stop infront of a train track crossing?
10:14<Elukka>they do
10:14<Diablo-D3>no they dont, otherwise people wouldnt get banned for intentionally doing it
10:14<Elukka>it's when the car is already on the tracks and a train comes through that they crash
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10:15<Diablo-D3>Elukka: they shouldnt be able to get onto the tracks
10:15<Elukka>i really wish level crossings would be usable
10:15<Diablo-D3>the graphics for the crossing are already down
10:15<Pinkbeast>Diablo> The level crossing might not know the train is coming that way until it's 1 tile away at 80mph; the vehicle might be moving at 3mph.
10:15<Diablo-D3>Pinkbeast: yeah theres that too
10:15<Diablo-D3>which is kind of a nasty bug
10:15<Diablo-D3>I'd like it if crossings would go down long before the train comes like irl
10:15<Elukka>there's certainly code in the game that makes a road vehicle stop at a level crossing, it's just not enough
10:16<V453000>"like irl" ftw
10:16<Pinkbeast>In reality the level crossing has to be tied into the signal network, but at OTTD scales that might require level crossings to be in a long straight track section.
10:16<Diablo-D3>Elukka: yeah but it only saves MY veh
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10:16<Pinkbeast>A _very_ long track section.
10:16<Diablo-D3>cant ottd internally spawn stuff into the signal network?
10:16<norbert79>V453000: IRL. Hmm. endless tiles in games, precise buildings, no edgy movement, etc etc.. Wow, how much for coding )
10:16<Pinkbeast>So the track owner has to be prevented from building junctions anywhere near the level crossing.
10:16<Diablo-D3>why not just REQUIRE building crossings
10:16<V453000>norbert79: I just smile and think my own :P
10:16<Pinkbeast>Now road players can grief rail players by building level crossings every 10 tiles on their network. Ooops.
10:16<Diablo-D3>as in, its not automated
10:17<norbert79>V453000: I was sarcastic too :)
10:17<V453000>I noticed :p
10:17<Diablo-D3>and make the road guys build the crossings or something
10:17<V453000>Diablo-D3: just find a server with proper etiquette and admin
10:17<Diablo-D3>V453000: oh sure but
10:17<Diablo-D3>no server has my settings :<
10:18<norbert79>I thought you are a pro on opening Servers
10:18<V453000>if the settings are good, suggest them to someone?
10:18<norbert79>Now I am shocked
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10:19<Pinkbeast>Diablo> Consider about the worst case with existing grfs; an 80mph UKRS2 Spinner approaching a crossing which a 3mph steam bus wants to use.
10:19<V453000>but wait, you play multiplayer and have problems with people. At the same time, no server has "your" settings. What is the problem to change a server then?
10:19<Elukka>that's a really fringe case though, pinkbeast
10:19<Elukka>even if a solution wouldn't work in every conceivable situation, it'd be better if it worked in most
10:19<Pinkbeast>If the steam bus is to travel 1 tile, the Spinner needs to reserve the level crossing 80/3 =~ _27 tiles_ away.
10:19<norbert79>Pinkbeast: and include an UFO landing just on the bus
10:20<Pinkbeast>Elukka> A 300mph maglev and a 15 mph HEQS crawler 4 tiles long?
10:20<Elukka>you don't build level crossings on maglev lines :P
10:20<Pinkbeast>Elukka> Well, right now you can.
10:20<norbert79>Elukka: Unless you are very brave :)
10:20<Diablo-D3>Pinkbeast: do me a favor and use Diablo-D3: so my client highlights it
10:20<Elukka>i think it'd be sufficient if level crossings were safe in sensible cases
10:21<Elukka>nobody's going to drive a car over a TGV line
10:21<Diablo-D3>Pinkbeast: all you have to do is type dia and press tab
10:21<Diablo-D3>Elukka: yeah, why cant servers disable crossings altogether?
10:21<Pinkbeast>Yes, because all the world uses the same IRC client as you.
10:21<Diablo-D3>that would fix a LOT of bullshit
10:21<Elukka>you can keep the ability to build them on maglev lines, just don't blame the game when crashes happen :P
10:22<Diablo-D3>Pinkbeast: mirc, bitchx, irssi, ircii, mozilla chat thingy, xchat, and several others all support tab complete nicks.
10:22<V453000>this conversation leads nowhere, Diablo-D3 just should start playing with "normal" people ... all that solves it
10:22<Diablo-D3>V453000: you mean not play on public servers.
10:22<Pinkbeast>Elukka> Even in more sensible cases, the exclusion zone is going to be quite wide, like 3 or 4 tiles.
10:22<Diablo-D3>even on luuksland people are fucking dicks frequently
10:22<V453000>not all public servers are full of retards
10:22<V453000>yes, luukland is retarded by design
10:22<Elukka>sure, but least it's possible to build it
10:22<Pinkbeast>Elukka> But it doesn't prevent griefing.
10:22<Diablo-D3>griefing has largely ruined ottd for me
10:23<Elukka>openttd has lots of exciting griefing options
10:23<Elukka>i never play it with anyone except a few friends
10:23<Diablo-D3>like, REBUILD ROADS
10:23<Diablo-D3>DURFA HURFA HURF
10:23<norbert79>Diablo-D3: I don't about Pinkbeast, but your behaviour catched my eyes, and think, it might be annoying and arrogatn. And I think I am not alone with that; I go even further, I think you are already on Pinkbeast's ignore list.
10:23<V453000>well, if you want a server with nice people, #openttdcoop.stable on 1.1.3RC1 is for you
10:23<Pinkbeast>Either the rail owner _can_ build a junction in the exclusion zone and break it, or they can't and you can grief people by building regularly spaced crossings on their railway.
10:24<Diablo-D3>V453000: hrm.
10:24<Pinkbeast>norbert> You'd be wrong, although I don't really care if someone reads so slowly they need lines of IRC highlighted for them when the channel's this quiet.
10:24<Diablo-D3>V453000: btw, did you look at how I'd want a perfect server?
10:24<V453000>no and I cant say I care
10:24<Elukka>i'm not really thinking of it from a griefing standpoint
10:24<norbert79>Pinkbeast: I envy your patience...
10:24<Diablo-D3>V453000: well Im just saying, theres stuff I'd like to see and apparently no one else does
10:24<Pinkbeast>Elukka> Well, from a "making them work at all" perspective a level crossing could close any time there's a PBS reservation through it, and then you can build working ones. But doesn't that happen already??
10:25<Elukka>hmm... does it?
10:25<Elukka>i don't think i've used level crossings in the PBS era :D
10:25<Pinkbeast>Might be a patch thing.
10:25<Diablo-D3>V453000: ecs + av8 + fish + heqs + egrvts + industrial stations, city stations, rural stations, total town + total brudge, ukrs2 and 2+, and nars
10:26<V453000>ecs = retarded
10:26<@planetmaker>no, that works perfectly well, Pinkbeast
10:26<Diablo-D3>and bigger train depots, and long vehicles v4, and luukland server just for citybuilder mode
10:26<V453000>Diablo-D3: then make your own server
10:26<Diablo-D3>V453000: well its either ecs or firs
10:26<V453000>firs at least makes sense
10:26<Pinkbeast>Elukka> There we go - you can build working ones with PBS signals if people cooperate, and if they don't griefing's inevitable.
10:26<norbert79>V453000: Just out of curiosity: What's the problem with ECS?
10:26<Diablo-D3>I just want something to make industries more complex
10:26<Diablo-D3>V453000: okay, what does firs do that ecs doesnt?
10:26<V453000>norbert79: it has no system what so ever (unlike firs)
10:27<Pinkbeast>You _could_ fix it by letting vehicles interpenetrate - the real problem here is that a level crossing is effectively a kilometre wide.
10:27<Diablo-D3>no system? in what way?
10:27<V453000>look at firs
10:27<V453000>there are a few spheres of cargoes with a certain purpose
10:27<Diablo-D3>I can click industry layout in ecs, and the trees are HUGE
10:27<V453000>some create goods, some improve other industries,..
10:27<Pinkbeast>If the level crossing's closed, a vehicle has to stop exactly halfway across, but never gets crushed.
10:27<V453000>but ecs has just a random mess of cargoes
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10:28<Pinkbeast>FIRS supplies (which I like) are a bit of a contentious issue
10:28<andythenorth>I have never played an ECS game, but I read the docs. I don't think it's bad. Lots of people like it.
10:28<norbert79>andythenorth: No wonder, since the variety of goods
10:28<@Yexo><Diablo-D3> Elukka: yeah, why cant servers disable crossings altogether? <- servers can do that via means of a newgrf
10:28<V453000>unplayable andy
10:28<Pinkbeast>Well, no-one's being made to use _every_ ECS vector
10:29<V453000>and getting a farm produce 7k fruit in summer, 0 in winter is also awesome ........
10:29<V453000>each industry with easily reachable high productions
10:29<V453000>in the end, the playstyle you need to use for this is much simplier than "normal"
10:29<Elukka>i prefer FIRS but ECS is certainly playable
10:29<Pinkbeast>farms> That would be lovely if _all the rest_ of OTTD had seasonal operation in mind in any way whatsoever, as it is...
10:29<norbert79>V453000: But you said IRL is not needed in OpenTTD yet you prefer such NewGRF's ;-) Just bugging
10:30<V453000>I hate realistic ECS ... how is that related
10:30<norbert79>FIRS shows more relation to real life, while ECS doesn't that much
10:30<Diablo-D3>real life isnt always good
10:31<norbert79>Diablo-D3: That sounds a bit like an oximoron from your 'mouth'
10:31<norbert79>(seeing past logs)
10:31<Pinkbeast>Elukka> Oh, I've got it! If you're using a newgrf with track speeds, the level crossing could calculate the minimum safe RV speed and prohibit ones moving slower!
10:31<Diablo-D3>norbert79: dude, trolling in #openttd isnt a good thing.
10:31<norbert79>Pinkbeast: Sounds nice, might be useful in the main code too, if it works well
10:32<V453000>I feel like vice versa, because FIRS defines some cargo groups and each of the groups works somehow. That it fits in how reality works is just another point. But ECS has no such gameplay-system what so ever, so I consider ECS much more oriented to real life, maybe it does not fit as much as FIRS, but it has no real "focus" I can see.
10:32<Pinkbeast>norbert> Mmm, but absent track speeds it doesn't work.
10:32<norbert79>Pinkbeast: And what about short tracks, where the tracks do not grow larger than 4-5 tiles
10:32<norbert79>Pinkbeast: it would possibly stop all incoming traffic
10:33<Diablo-D3>V453000: well wait, I dont understand
10:33<@Yexo>V453000: in ECS the "focus" would be the different vectors
10:33<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast: what about a vehicle going 80km/h (may cross) - but then being forced to stop due to jam? Or break-down?
10:33<norbert79>V453000: Got you
10:33<Pinkbeast>Well, yeah. But I see "crossings can block traffic" as an improvement on "crossings can kill vehicles"
10:33<Diablo-D3>V453000: you have, say, an iron ore mine. you take the ore to an iron smelting plant, then its turned into metal, and then you have another industry that takes metal
10:33<norbert79>Pinkbeast: True
10:33<V453000>Yexo: yes, but in the end when you put the vectors together, it is just a massive mess
10:33<Pinkbeast>planetmaker> If a vehicle breaks down on a crossing, it may get smooshed, That's fine, it _happens_. The lookahead for jams, damn, you've got me there.
10:33<@Yexo>too many vectors creates a mess indeed :)
10:34<Pinkbeast>But to be fair RV route selection could use more lookahead anyway.
10:34<Diablo-D3>V453000: and you have oil, taken to an oil refinery, produces petrol and chemicals, petrol gets delivered to something, chemicals get delivered to something else
10:34<@Yexo>but I never played for long with ECS vectors
10:34<V453000>me neither - ended up unplayable :)
10:34<@Yexo>the graphics are really nice, but imo they don't fit the ttd nor the opengfx style
10:34<V453000>every single time
10:34<V453000>yes, graphics are awesome
10:34<V453000>they dont really fit, but they make their own style which is nice :)
10:35<norbert79>Yexo: Yes, also found a bit distrubing seing some graphics out of context
10:35<Pinkbeast>The downside is that now I can grief RV users by building high-speed track on their roads and I don't even have to build any trains to smoosh their vehicles.
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10:39<Diablo-D3>V453000: so what can firs actually do for me?
10:39<andythenorth>it makes tea
10:39<andythenorth>and paints exterior walls
10:40<andythenorth>it is green on thursdays, but blue before 8pm
10:40<V453000>yes lol :d
10:40<Pinkbeast>And you can make tiny OTTD people happy by supplying them with moist delicious beer
10:40<@planetmaker>to me that blue looked rather pink
10:40<andythenorth>I don't much like it :P
10:40<Diablo-D3>because ECS isnt meant to be that you do EVERY SINGLE VECTOR FULLY
10:41<Diablo-D3>its meant that you focus on one, and other players focus on others, and you dont directly compete on resources
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>who forbids you from competing?
10:41<@Yexo>Diablo-D3: that's just your interpretation and certainly not the original intent
10:41<@Yexo>since ECS has been created before OpenTTD multiplayer was stable, so it was created for singleplayer games
10:41<Diablo-D3>Yexo: thats how Ive seen it played
10:42<Diablo-D3>it tends to balance
10:42<George>V453000: easily reachable high productions in the end, the playstyle you need to use for this is much simplier than "normal" - looks like you did not play ECS for years ;)
10:42<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: no one, competing is legit
10:42<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: most servers dont like it when you steal from secondary industries you're not also feeding though
10:42<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: sorta like normal openttd
10:42<Diablo-D3>ECS has three and I think a four layer deep chain
10:42<@peter1138>ah, the crazy mindset that believes they _own_ the goods
10:43<Diablo-D3>peter1138: yeah, which gets retarded
10:43<Diablo-D3>I dont "play to win"
10:43<Diablo-D3>I find ottd relaxing
10:43<Pinkbeast>I think I'd be happier with competing if it worked in some better way than "the two best stations get everything"
10:43<Diablo-D3>but you have people who are just dicks and rush through everything and make ugly networks and do dumb shit
10:43<Pinkbeast>Even if that means a million tons of coal piling up at an RV station served by two asthmatic horses and wait for the rating to drop.
10:43<Diablo-D3>and then "win"
10:44<@planetmaker>damn you Pinkbeast! I nearly spillt my drink!
10:44<Diablo-D3>hell, sometimes I play entire games without even using trains.
10:45<Diablo-D3>V453000: so you dont like ecs because its ^ that complex?
10:46<V453000>no, I dont like ecs because it is chaos and has weird features like farms producing 7k in summer, 0 in winter
10:46<Diablo-D3>you cant turn that off
10:46<V453000>you can turn off many things like stockpiling afaik
10:47<V453000>but I dont think this farm effect
10:47<Diablo-D3>well I might be wrong, but I swear I saw one that effects seasonal stuff with farms
10:47<V453000>still. I have seen way too many people play ecs and after seeing the effects it had on their playstyle, I have my own opinion I am not going to change .. needless to argue.
10:48*Diablo-D3 shrugs
10:48<Diablo-D3>firs style is identical to normal openttd style?
10:48<Pinkbeast>I would suggest a) regard all stations owned by one player as one for the purpose of determining the total cargo allotment b) allot at least _some_ cargo to all stations (but less to lower rankings) and c) use the amount of waiting cargo to temporarily reduce the ranking
10:48<@planetmaker> <-- apropos, George, is there visible which cargo is defined in which vector?
10:49<George>Yes. ID is written in the vector
10:49<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: waiting cargo on a station already reduces the station rating
10:49<Pinkbeast>I know bad service reduces the rating in the long run anyway.
10:49<George>In the other vectors arrows have only names
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10:49<Diablo-D3>btw, you know what would improve things?
10:49<George>BTW, is the last
10:49<Diablo-D3>cargo not waiting at the station, but at the industry
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10:50<Diablo-D3>George: link here needs updated
10:50<@planetmaker>ah, so only name + ID means 'defined here'
10:50<Pinkbeast>But right now it takes the game forever to notice those asthmatic horses aren't taking the coal away. The rating needs to change slowly for gameplay, but where the coal actually goes should react on the fly to waiting cargo piles.
10:51<Diablo-D3>does Pinkbeast have me on ignore?
10:51<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: the only point of the rating is for determining how cargo is distributed
10:51<Pinkbeast>Oh, yes, totally. Wait, how did I know you were asking? :-)
10:51<Diablo-D3>[10:49:44] <Diablo-D3> cargo not waiting at the station, but at the industry
10:51<@Yexo>if you propose another method for that, why not remove station rating completely?
10:52<Pinkbeast>Yexo> Towns?
10:52<Diablo-D3>I honestly wouldnt mind seeing this
10:52<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: station rating has no influence on towns at all
10:52<@Yexo>town rating is a completely separate mechanic
10:52<@planetmaker>what is an 'indirect cargo', George?
10:52<Pinkbeast>Yexo> Goodness me, so it does
10:53<Pinkbeast>OK, but I still think there's a need for a "long term performance" component and an "immediate situation" component.
10:53<Pinkbeast>And the first of those is pretty much what rating is now.
10:54<Pinkbeast>So rating would be "old rating" minus "n% for each m cargo waiting".
10:54<George>Diablo-D3: That is the wrong link. This is correct one
10:54<@Yexo>and "immediate situation" would only be the amount of cargo waiting?
10:54<Pinkbeast>Depends if we can think of something else useful.
10:54<George>planetmaker: Yes Name + ID
10:55<Pinkbeast>For example, stations with no cargo waiting might be preferred if they have a vehicle loading.
10:55<Pinkbeast>But I still think the "old rating" component should be reported to the player (because they get a separate report of the waiting cargo anyway)
10:56<Pinkbeast>I think the important thing is sending _some_ cargo to every station with a >0 rating and not allowing multiple stations for the same company to double-dip, though.
10:57<George><@planetmaker> what is an 'indirect cargo', George? - the cargo, that is not processed into production. For example Coal + Ore = Steel (Direct cargo). Vehicels affect Coal mine production, but it is not transformed into cargo. If you have 100000t coal body, you would not get more coal regardless amount of vehicles delivered. Vehicles is indirect cargo (same as fertiliser)
10:58<norbert79>what about randomized methods? Some stations would use a method of using reliable trasnporting companies, while other would use the method of "first at the station gets more"
10:58<George>Glass and dyes are direct cargoes
10:59<norbert79>George: Cars use glass too :)
10:59<George>They are transformed into cargo
10:59<Pinkbeast>norbert> This is not a bad idea, but it's a separate idea. I'm just trying to address the "people get annoyed by competing for cargo not least because it doesn't work well" thing.
10:59<Pinkbeast>Well, actually, I'm blathering about it on #openttd and not writing any code, alas.
10:59<George>I mean glass allows you to produce MORE vehicles
11:00<norbert79>George: I have never seen any firms making double cars, just because they hit jackpot on glass-lottery, while they lack on steel :)
11:01<George>Correct. In case no steel you get no cars
11:01<George>but in case 100t steel you get 10 cars, and in case 100t steel and 10t glass you get 11 cars
11:01<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: you don't have to start writing code. Just thinking of a good formula on how to distribute the goods would go a long way already
11:02<norbert79>George: This is where ECS is not good at. Even with 100t steel and 10t of glass you should be able producing only 10 cars
11:02<George>Why I should?
11:02<norbert79>George: I go even further. No goods shall be produced, if not all ingridients are present.
11:03<andythenorth>norbert79: that suck
11:03<@Yexo>norbert79: I disagree, it needs far too much micromanaging to get that correct
11:03<andythenorth>it's crappy gameplay
11:03<norbert79>andythenorth: Well, still, I would be happy to play it that way. You could still broing glass to the factory, but for pricy cars get all the things at one place...
11:03<andythenorth>it's boring
11:03<George>norbert79: Not correct. ECS assumes, that some small amounts of ingredients the industry gets itself (from nowhere)
11:04<George>As you can see, secondory industries have production even if you do not deliver cargo
11:04<andythenorth>norbert79: it's only interesting in PBI where it's also combined with stockpiles + such to make evil gameplay
11:04<norbert79>George: Hmm, this is a problem I see, that was exactly the rewason why in general buying from other companies the money goes nowhere.
11:04<Pinkbeast>Yexo> Well, I would distribute the cargo directly proportional to station rating, with a cap of the amount that would be delivered under the present system.
11:04<George>But on the high production levels this does not work.
11:04<George>You have to deliver all ingridients
11:05<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: currently the cap is the highest station rating
11:05<norbert79>I would still see options in such gameplay, since you can make things out of materials seperatly, but together they produce something else, for which you can more money from.
11:05<Pinkbeast>If a given company has multiple stations their quota is that for one station with their highest rating, but then distribute that between their stations on the same basis
11:05<norbert79>Wood -> Furniture. Wood + Steel -> planes... Just a rough example
11:05<@Yexo>if the industry produces 200 items of some cargo and you have stations with rating 40%, 50% and 60% the total amount distributed it 120 items (60% of 200)
11:06<@planetmaker>thanks for the explanation, George
11:06<@Yexo>that 120 is that distributed over the statios with rating 50% and 60%
11:06<Pinkbeast>Where "rating" here is "old rating" minus (say) 10% for each week's production waiting at the station.
11:06<Pinkbeast>Yeah, I'm reading that Wiki page.
11:06<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: there is no such thing as "one week's production"
11:06<Pinkbeast>I don't understand why not, I'm afraid.
11:07<norbert79>Yexo: Tell that to the producing companies :D
11:07<norbert79>Yexo: manufacturing...
11:07<George>norbert79: You get much more mony in case you deliver all the materials, because you have much higher output
11:07<@Yexo>because industry production is done by industries, OpenTTD can't accurately predict the production of the next day
11:07<George>norbert79: Funiture factory would never produce planes. Only goods
11:08<Pinkbeast>Use the value for last month's production reported by the GUI (with a minimum cap so we don't divide by zero above hee hee)
11:08<norbert79>George: I somehow got you, since the game cannot handle the ammount of importers/companies, for which my logic would be useful, since if one skips game, there goes produciton, which would be similar to real life, but you can sure block production on cars for example.
11:08<@Yexo>last month's production is per industry, I think we'd need something per station in this case
11:08<norbert79>George: Where in real life a new importer is soon to be found
11:08<@Yexo>which would be a new statistic, but that could be added
11:09<norbert79>George: So the addon must be able to produce the goods somehow. Pity, but you are right :)
11:09<norbert79>George: So yeah, I see your logic.
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11:12<Pinkbeast>No, I think per-station is wrong here. What would be the figure?
11:12<norbert79>Ok, later everyone
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11:12<@Yexo>just for the "immediate rating" I mean, the figure would be the amount of cargo delivered to the station last month, just for comparison with the current cargo amount
11:13<George>norbert79: Anyway, feedbacks for ECS are welcome. Writing them on the forums is easier to manager them, than here, though
11:13<Pinkbeast>That sounds like a recipe for feedback loops.
11:13<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: this time in a good way
11:13<Pinkbeast>It increases the rating penalty for waiting cargo if the station has a low rating because then it got less cargo delivered...
11:14<@Yexo>but if less cargo is delivered it should be very easy to transport it all
11:15<@Yexo>if you still can't do that your transportation is simply crap and you deserve even less cargo
11:15<Pinkbeast>But all that works just as well if we're comparing it with the industry's total production.
11:15<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: but what if a single station gets cargo from 10 industries at the same time?
11:15<@Yexo>and that can't be done for passenger stations, since the production of every individual house is very low
11:16<Pinkbeast>Passengers> count the total available production.
11:16<@Yexo>instead of the actual amount delivered to the station we could use the maximum amount that could have been delivered to the station
11:16<Pinkbeast>In fact, always count the total available production, maybe? If there are ten coalmines, the stacks of coal can get ten times as big
11:16<@Yexo>that is the industry production if a single industry, and the sum of industry production if there are multiple industries producing the same cargo
11:17<@Yexo>ok, so we thought of the same thing :)
11:17<Pinkbeast>That's a good sign
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11:42<Diablo-D3>I wonder how many people play solo with no AI
11:43<Diablo-D3>Im considering it
11:43<Pinkbeast>That's how I normally play. The AIs are vexing in various ways
11:43<Diablo-D3>I mean, no server wants to run with the settings I want, the few servers that have similar settings are always emty
11:43<Diablo-D3>and even if I just play vanilla openttd, servers are full of assholes
11:44<Diablo-D3>and AIs wouldnt be so bad, but they cant play with grfs that change shit around
11:44<@planetmaker>we meanwhile know that all.
11:44<@planetmaker>you repeat this every 6 hours
11:44<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: well
11:44<Diablo-D3>you keep saying "setup a server"
11:44<@Yexo><Diablo-D3> and AIs wouldnt be so bad, but they cant play with grfs that change shit around <- that depends on what those grfs change
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11:45<@Yexo>AIs nowadays can cope with quite a long of changes
11:45<Diablo-D3>Yexo: ECS usually is enough to stop an AI
11:45<Pinkbeast>But FIRS isn't, and FIRS is a long way from vanilla.
11:45<@Yexo>ECS changes quite a lot
11:45<Pinkbeast>The main thing I notice is atrociously mad vehicle selection with non-default vehicles
11:45<@Yexo>biggest problem is "requiring multiple cargoes to produce anything" and "stop accepting one cargo if the other doesn't get delivered"
11:46<@planetmaker>Diablo-D3: I gave you that advice once
11:46<@planetmaker>But you now whine in this channel for... how long? 48 hoursß
11:46<@planetmaker>How bad everything is etc pp
11:46<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: no, I wasnt even in the channel for about 24 hours
11:46<Pinkbeast>Experimentally I tried UKRS2+2cc+one of every AI that builds trains
11:46<Diablo-D3>the problem is openttd is one of the few games I keep coming back to
11:46<Diablo-D3>and maybe I shouldnt
11:46<Diablo-D3>but there just arent any fun games anymore
11:46<Pinkbeast>... most of them fix six 2cc pax carriages to a 2-2-0 Planet and then wonder why it loses money.
11:47<Diablo-D3>Pinkbeast: most implies not all
11:47<Diablo-D3>which ones didnt fail?
11:47<Ammler>Diablo-D3: you see how boring you are, your less than 24 hours felt like 48 hours :-P
11:47<Pinkbeast>It's a while back but I seem to recall Admiral got it together once the second or third loco emerged.
11:47<Diablo-D3>Ammler: dude, we're in #openttd, its not quake.
11:48<Diablo-D3>Pinkbeast: how do I restrict the game to only use specific AIs?
11:48<Pinkbeast>To be fair, it's not completely obvious to the AI that the Planet can't actually pull freight _at all_
11:48<Pinkbeast>AI settings let you put specific AIs in specific slots (or only download the ones you want)
11:48<Diablo-D3>isnt there functions for the AI to call that?
11:48<Diablo-D3>er, call for that
11:49<@planetmaker>bah... way too noisy here
11:49<Pinkbeast>I don't mean "it's prohibited"; I mean "the engine's power and tractive effort make freight totally impractical."
11:49<Diablo-D3>Pinkbeast: oh.
11:49<Diablo-D3>huh, I wonder why AI cant make the calculation then
11:49<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: can files be deleted from the devzone? the wagon sprites thread is clogged up with lots of unneeded old versions of sprites
11:50<Diablo-D3>I thought I saw addons that just provide large libraries for AI to use
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: i'm pretty sure they do
11:50<@Yexo><Diablo-D3> huh, I wonder why AI cant make the calculation then <- they probably can, but that doesn't mean all AIs actually implement that
11:50<@planetmaker>they can... but... why? They serve a purpose in a way
11:50<Pinkbeast>I think the issue is that AI developers don't consider the edge case where the right number of freight wagons is zero, which is not really their fault.
11:50<Elukka>i saw that oberhümer had deleted some of his own sprites but i can't seem to delete mine
11:51<@Yexo>how can the right number of freight wagons be zero?
11:51<Diablo-D3>Yexo: the train engine is the wrong engine for the task
11:51<Pinkbeast>Yexo> I mean, it's not practical to pull freight at all.
11:51<@planetmaker>yes, there are edit rights involved. oberhumer is one of the project devlopers by what the project says
11:51<@planetmaker>thus he can edit tasks
11:52<Pinkbeast>The engine is wrong, and it's the only engine in 1830.
11:52<Diablo-D3>er, cant I add AI through the online content window anymore?
11:53<@Yexo>Diablo-D3: in the main menu chose "AI settings"
11:53<@Yexo>you can download them from the online content
11:53<Diablo-D3>I must be blind, I see no AI in the list
11:53<@Yexo>it depends from where you open the online content window
11:53<@planetmaker>Elukka: from my POV deleting the attachment is not a good thing in that case either, though. It destroys part of the issues history
11:53<Diablo-D3>and I used to be able to a few versions back before the new newgrf settings window
11:53<@Yexo>if you open it from the enwgrf window it's filtered to newgrfs
11:54<@Yexo>if you open it from the "select AI' window it's filtered to AIs
11:54<Diablo-D3>thats... kinda nonobvious
11:54<Pinkbeast>But the AI settings window lets you open it and what Yexo said
11:54<@Yexo>if you open it from the main menu it shows all kind of content
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11:55<@planetmaker>or do you feel you should be emberrassed of the first versions? I don't think so
11:56<andythenorth>planetmaker: wrong room?
11:57<@planetmaker>no? Elukka asked in this channel
11:57*andythenorth was missing the thread :m
11:59<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: I can see the problem with the 2-2-0 planet. Which engine available in 1920 would you find better suited?
12:00<Diablo-D3>Supports NewGRF vehicles (tested with Zephyris' eGRVTS, George's Long Vehicles v4, and PikkaBird?'s HOVS)
12:00<Diablo-D3>Supports NewGRF house and industry sets (tested with TTRS, George's ECS Vectors and PikkaBird's PBI)
12:00<Diablo-D3>^ pathzilla
12:00<Diablo-D3>I wonder if it works as well as it claims to
12:00<Pinkbeast>Yexo> 1920? Lots. I'm just saying, train AIs don't handle the UKRS2 in 1830 case well, but it is pretty pathological and I don't see it as developers' faults.
12:02<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: it doesn't have to be anybodies 'fault' for there to be room for improvement
12:03<Pinkbeast>Indeed... but equally, when one notices room for improvement, I think it's good to make it clear that you aren't criticising anyone.
12:03<Pinkbeast>Unless they're an idiot. :-)
12:04<Diablo-D3>I wonder what would happen if I started the game in 1700
12:04<Pinkbeast>You'd spend a very long time pushing around eGRTVTS horse vehicles and Sailing Ships, at best.
12:04<Diablo-D3>I have nars and ukrs2 too
12:04<Pinkbeast>They start in 1830, so not pertinent here
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12:05<Pinkbeast>Also all the buildings will look really silly
12:07<@Yexo>a 2-2-0 planet with 182 tonnes of coal can reach 25 km/h, but with 208 tonnes of coal it can't go faster than 1km/h
12:07<Pinkbeast>I think these days you can start in 1AD if you like. "Well, the cargo manifest says five loaves and seven fishes, but there sure is a lot of it now."
12:07<@Yexo>and I have absolutely no clue how to calculate the maximum amount an engine can pull
12:07<Diablo-D3>Pinkbeast: :D
12:07<Pinkbeast>25 km/h # until it hits a hill, when it stops.
12:07<Diablo-D3>Yexo: cars have weights
12:08<Diablo-D3>... yeah, I see the problem
12:08<@Yexo>Pinkbeast: ok, hills are a big problem indeed :p
12:08<Pinkbeast>You can build loaded-only-downhill lines and that's it (and they aren't super profitable either)
12:08<@Yexo>yes, I can calculate the weight of the cars
12:08<Diablo-D3>so if planet sucks so much, why is it in the grf?
12:08<@Yexo>but how do I calculate what the maximum weight is that an engine can pull?
12:08<Pinkbeast>Er... it doesn't suck. It's better than any other engine available in 1830.
12:08<Diablo-D3>Yexo: read the source
12:08<Diablo-D3>Pinkbeast: if it cant pull a lot of freight, why have it?
12:09<Pinkbeast>a) It's real and b) pax services.
12:09<Diablo-D3>yeah, but its not pax only
12:09<@Yexo>thanks for the very constructive answer Diablo-D3, but I didn't plan on simulating every engine
12:09<valhallasw>Yexo: to accurately calculate that, you would need more details
12:09<Diablo-D3>the game knows how to calculate it because it does...
12:09<Eddi|zuHause><Yexo> but how do I calculate what the maximum weight is that an engine can pull? <-- power / speed = rolling resistance + wind resistance
12:09<@Yexo>valhallasw: I don't need "accurate", a rough approximation is enough
12:09<Diablo-D3>why cant openttd just warn you what you did is stupid?
12:10<Pinkbeast>Because if you're playing with UKRS2 starting in or before 1830 you probably know enough about railways to know it's stupid.
12:10<valhallasw>Yexo: calculate the initial acceleration, and determine a sensible minimum?
12:10<@Yexo><Pinkbeast> Because if you're playing with UKRS2 starting in or before 1830 you probably know enough about railways to know it's stupid. <- that is a very wrong assumption
12:10<Pinkbeast>... or just if you understand what "maximum tractive effort" means in gameplay
12:11<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: wouldn't you need to calculate for going up a slope?
12:11<Diablo-D3>heh, if AI would just choose that, it'd "fix" a lot of bugs
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: you can factor in slopes as well
12:12<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: ok. Given an AI can't get the wind resistance yet (I could take a constant for it), I just need to calculate the rolling resistance
12:12<Diablo-D3>maybe sort all engines by, say, power and tractive effort and ignore speed
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>add + angle*mass*g
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>(angle in %)
12:12<Pinkbeast>Yexo> Really? I would think the experience of using those very early engines would be deeply frustrating for a player who doesn't at least slightly value the experience because they're real.
12:13<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: but what mass? the mass of the whole train, or just the max mass of the segment of the train that's on the short slope?
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: the game mechanics is totally flawed in that respect anyway
12:14<valhallasw>Yexo: I doubt saying 'tractive effort > rolling resistance' gives you what you want - after all, a train that accelerates very very slowly still does that
12:14<b_jonas>but anyway, I think you need some correction for slopes, because very few people will build only completely flat rails.
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: but anyway, the whole train, and the angle is calculated by the amount of slopes the train is on
12:14<b_jonas>I see
12:14<valhallasw>Yexo: In the end, I think you want to know 'can I sensibly use this locomotive for this train'
12:15<@Yexo>valhallasw: at the point I'm choosing an engine I have no clue about the wagons yet
12:15<b_jonas>some NewGRFs at least export short human-readable usage descriptions for trains
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: and the impact of slopes is different if the train is already running, or if it is starting up
12:15<b_jonas>for train engines I maen
12:15<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: that latter is at least realistic
12:15<Pinkbeast>Eddi> I think you may be letting perfection be the enemy of good.
12:16<b_jonas>Pinkbeast: no, sorry, I forced him there
12:17<Diablo-D3>so is pathzilla the best AI?
12:17<Pinkbeast>I'm not sure that "best AI" is a meaningful concept
12:17<Diablo-D3>it seems admiral is good, but screws itself on alternate road grfs
12:17<@Yexo>on which ones exactly?
12:17<@Yexo>I'd like to fix it
12:18<Diablo-D3>thread said egrvts
12:18<b_jonas>Admiral seems to usually work well for me. Also, it's better than it used to be.
12:18<Pinkbeast>I'm pretty sure Admiral doesn't make too bad a hash of things with eGRVTS
12:18<b_jonas>Though currently I'm playing a game without AI.
12:19<Pinkbeast>It did love to fill the road with HEQS crawlers last time I tried it with HEQS
12:19<Diablo-D3>Im using heqs too :<
12:19<Pinkbeast>In terms of dealing well with random collections of newgrfs, though, NoCAB is the best I've found.
12:19<@Yexo>Also, it's better than it used to be. <- That's funny, it hasn't been updated for over a year (or 2 years now?)
12:19<@Yexo>yes, 2 years
12:19<b_jonas>Newgrfs can mess with the game in such powerful way that no AI can be prepared for everything.
12:20<b_jonas>Yexo: I've been playing openttd for longer than that
12:20<b_jonas>with long pauses when I tried to be productive
12:23<Diablo-D3>nocab seems to rape admiralai in normal gameplay vs
12:23<Pinkbeast>Or "beat", as we say when we're older than 13.
12:25<Elukka><@planetmaker> Elukka: from my POV deleting the attachment is not a good thing in that case either, though. It destroys part of the issues history
12:25<Diablo-D3>is this out of date?
12:25<Diablo-D3>it says pathzilla cant do trains
12:25<Elukka>well, i don't have a problem with my old crap being out there, but i do stupid stuff like uploading a version then noticing the lighting is off in a couple places then uploading a nearly identical fixed version :D
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>wiki pages are notoriously out of date
12:27<@planetmaker>Elukka: that happens, yes. You're not alone with that :-)
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12:30<Elukka>see it's not just a compartment coach, it's a version 2, fixed compartment coach :P
12:33<@planetmaker>so? :-)
12:35<pjpe>are we ever going to see these in motion
12:35<@planetmaker>Elukka: it's actually that one can learn from that process, too :-)
12:35<pjpe>this smooth turning thing is exciting
12:35<@planetmaker>by just comparing the work steps
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>but i don't think oberhümer's november release date is awfully realistic
12:36<Elukka>you'll see them in motion if these fine people think they're good enough and get them coded :P
12:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: for CETS?
12:36<@planetmaker>hm... I'd not yet set a date :-)
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: oberhümer kinda wanted a release date similar to DBSetXL 0.9 ;)
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>but we need to get the needed openttd patches into trunk before a public release
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>and before we do that, we need to figure out what exactly is actually needed
12:38<@planetmaker>I don't like an externally - forced time schedule, though. Exactly that's why ^
12:38<Diablo-D3>the horse drawn carriages dont work :<
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: they are buggy with realistic acceleration
12:39-!-|Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>so better turn that off
12:40<Elukka>it's perhaps best to set internal deadlines rather than anything that might seem like a promise to others
12:40<Elukka>deadlines are good just to make people work more
12:40<Diablo-D3>ithe animations even work
12:40<Elukka>works for me at least
12:41<Diablo-D3>and horses are randomly colored
12:41<Elukka>they also make a funny noise when they whoosh past
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>and they make funny noise when they break down :p
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>(the horses, not the deadlines)
12:42<Diablo-D3>and its articulated
12:42<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: deadlines make funny noises when they breakdown
12:42<Diablo-D3>Ive seen it happen
12:42<Diablo-D3>it usually involves a balding middle aged guy bitching at someone loudly, even though the corner office door is shut
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12:44<Elukka>i believe deadlines also make a funny noise when they break down
12:45<@planetmaker>deadlines sometimes indeed make funny noises when they break down :-P
12:47<V453000>lines, but drunk to death
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12:51<V453000>dont worry, enough beer for both you and lines :P
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12:59*Pinkbeast wonders if anything can be done about transfer credits
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13:03<Eddi|zuHause>two options are: 1) abolish transfer credits, always pay real money for the partial route. but this allows abuse. 2) record all partial routes and the vehicle involved in the cargo packet, and distribute transfer credits on final delivery. this potentially increases memory footprint
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13:07<@planetmaker>for the reason of 1) that seems not like a good solution
13:08<@planetmaker>2) is not a principal problem (OpenTTD is not a big memory consumer atm - but cargo packets can be plenty, so that it in this particular case is not uncritical either)
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>wrt 2
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>and i had an unfinished/buggy patch wrt 1)
13:12<Elukka>what's the ETA of getting the first CETS sprites in game?
13:12<@planetmaker>no ETA there
13:12<Elukka>i realize there's probably no- yeah
13:12<Elukka>is it a month or a year thing :D
13:13<@planetmaker>In principle sprites can be added, I guess. But Eddi has a much better overview there
13:13<andythenorth>there's an ETA?
13:13<andythenorth>what's the ETA on FIRS? Someone should tell me :P
13:13<@planetmaker>(for the next nightly)
13:13<Pinkbeast>I had an intermediate idea, actually.
13:14<Elukka>FIRS is cool and very playable
13:14<Elukka>ETA was... some months ago? :P
13:14<andythenorth>Elukka: you're using FIRS 0.6.x ?
13:14<Pinkbeast>Rather than track every place a cargo packet goes, which could make them huge especially in cargodisty games, track the last station it came from.
13:14<andythenorth>or 0.7 beta?
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: that doesn't work.
13:15<Pinkbeast>Every time a cargo packet arrives somewhere, work out what the right transfer payment percentage would have been for the previous leg
13:15<Pinkbeast>Eddi> Hang on...
13:16<Elukka>FIRS + YACD is hard
13:16<Elukka>i do wish turning off destinations for industries worked in YACD but it is growing on me
13:16<Pinkbeast>Stations track those percentages, so if station A gets a packet of cargo X from station B it knows the right transfer payment percentage to use
13:16<Pinkbeast>... but
13:16<andythenorth>Elukka: FIRS + YACD will be better soon
13:16<Elukka>FIRS + YACD + 2cc is triple-plus hard :D
13:16<andythenorth>Elukka: do you know how to build FIRS trunk?
13:16<Pinkbeast>Maybe it needs to be finer grained than that - divide it up by type of vehicle? Order list?
13:17<Elukka>how what
13:17<@planetmaker>:-) compile newgrfs
13:17<andythenorth>oh you could get the nightly build
13:18<andythenorth>it won't work with YACD build though
13:18<@planetmaker>indeed :S
13:18<Elukka>yeah i haven't the faintest idea how to compile anything
13:18<andythenorth>I think FIRS + YACD will be *much* better with the changed station rating algorithm
13:18<andythenorth>basically YACD + FIRS currently sucks because there's hardly any cargo produced
13:18<Elukka>what are the changes?
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13:20<andythenorth>Elukka: the station ratings are much higher for much longer
13:20<andythenorth>this means that more of the industry output is sent to the station
13:21<andythenorth>normally with YACD I get ratings at about 20%
13:21<@planetmaker>hi Alberth
13:21<andythenorth>so a farm producing 16t / month, over 4 destinations...
13:21<andythenorth>@calc .2*16
13:21<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: 3.2
13:21<Elukka>i wish i could run the new version
13:21<andythenorth>produces 3.2t
13:21<andythenorth>so less than 1t per destination
13:21<andythenorth>so 2 years to load a truck
13:21<andythenorth>kind of sucks
13:22<@planetmaker>shrink the truck :-P
13:22<andythenorth>you'd think with a truck waiting for 2 years, you'd get better ratings :/
13:22<andythenorth>but you don't :P
13:22<@planetmaker>well, that's a yacd issue
13:22<Elukka>i suppose one day someone will compile things :P
13:22<@planetmaker>not a newgrf-solvable thing
13:23<andythenorth>planetmaker: we might have solved it already
13:23<@planetmaker>how so?
13:23<andythenorth>I haven't tested in a YACD game, but I think it will be much better
13:23<andythenorth>the new station rating algorithm
13:23<andythenorth>the 100% rating setting in FIRS is *stupid* and possibly we should remove that :)
13:23<@planetmaker>well... that's rather a hack than a solution
13:23<@planetmaker>a newgrf must not try to solve the issue
13:24<andythenorth>I think we discussed that and disagreed with you :)
13:24<@planetmaker>it should work without taking care of yacd
13:24<Pinkbeast>Also OTTD hates having a truck that runs around all the farms picking up whatever they've got
13:24<@planetmaker>openttd must solve that
13:24<andythenorth>I'd rather ottd didn't solve it
13:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth: if all you have is a nail, all the tools look like a hammer.
13:24<@planetmaker>But that doesn't help it here really
13:24<andythenorth>if you put the option into the game, it's yet another point of variation that FIRS has to balance against
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13:25<andythenorth>so by adding that setting you put *2 on all FIRS testing tasks
13:25<andythenorth>unless the setting has n options
13:25<andythenorth>that you put *n, where n is a sane number of discrete steps
13:25<andythenorth>the same argument applies to having it as a parameter in FIRS of course
13:27<andythenorth>planetmaker: how would ottd solve it?
13:27<andythenorth>to avoid the nail / hammer issue
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13:28<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the source of the problem lies within openttd which breaks existing stuff. Thus openttd must solve it at least somehow. There's more industry NewGRFs than FIRS
13:28<@planetmaker>thus the FIRS solution is even inferior
13:29<andythenorth>what would be better?
13:29<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: which side of a wagon do we want brakeman's cabs/platforms on?
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13:29<andythenorth>planetmaker: would it be better to have same adjustment to station ratings, but in ottd?
13:29<@planetmaker>station rating should remain at sane levels
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: probably the end
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: put the station rating thing into a separate grf
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>if you can
13:30<andythenorth>I can't
13:30<andythenorth>not maintainably
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>hm, then don't ;)
13:31<andythenorth>not without publishing it from the same repo + codebase as FIRS
13:31<andythenorth>which seems pointless
13:31<andythenorth>separate grf instead of parameter? Seems bonkers
13:31<andythenorth>isn't the fix a rewrite of station rating, with advanced setting
13:32<andythenorth>ship 'original' as default, offer n variations
13:32<andythenorth>have a community vote about what the variations should be
13:32<andythenorth>pay special attention to existing industry newgrf authors whose sets will be unbalanced by this
13:32<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the error description is "all industry newgrfs are broken".
13:33<@planetmaker>The solution à la "fix all newgrfs" is not the best, IMHO.
13:33<@planetmaker>At least it should not be the only one. At least it needs a flag like "YACD active for cargos xyz" or alike
13:34<@planetmaker>or vice versa newgrf-support to (dis)allow yacd for single cargos or the extend of yacd (num destinations)
13:34<@planetmaker>or whatever
13:35<andythenorth>we talk at cross purposes
13:35<andythenorth>I mislead you
13:36<andythenorth>the ratings algorithm change is a valid fix for non-YACD and (maybe) YACD
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13:36<andythenorth>and it could be a valid fix for trunk ottd
13:36<andythenorth>but then you have a community problem, and a code problem
13:38<andythenorth>if the game changes this, someone has to decide what's better, and then there's a bun fight
13:38<andythenorth>if newgrf changes it, no bun fight
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22933 /trunk/src/lang/slovenian.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: hungarian - 4 changes by
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: slovenian - 10 changes by Necrolyte
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13:48<Elukka>Eddi|ZuHause: since the brakeman's cab goes above the roof, it'll end up in the overlap zone on the diagonal views
13:48<Elukka>kinda having trouble imagining how that works
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13:49<Eddi|zuHause>that'll be fine
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14:00<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
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14:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22934 /trunk/src/network/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#4771]: prevent authentication bypass for the admin port when a new game is started
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14:47<andythenorth>it's funny how annoying alluke is even when he's being right
14:49<Pinkbeast>It's way easier to be annoying when you're right - if you do it when you're wrong you just look silly
14:54-!-George [~George@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:56<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22935 /branches/1.1/ (11 files in 6 dirs):
14:56<CIA-2>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
14:56<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Prevent authentication bypass for the admin port when a new game is started [FS#4771] (r22934)
14:56<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: TTO savegames with any aircraft not in an hangar caused crashes during load (r22915)
14:56<CIA-2>OpenTTD: - Fix: Windows 2000 and XP without service pack 3 must use the win9x binary/installer; the newer MSVC compiler of the compile farm does not support those versions of Windows anymore [FS#4749] (r22909)
14:58<Elukka>alluke? there's someone whose nick is confusingly much like mine in reverse?
14:58<pjpe>the other one
14:59<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22936 /branches/1.1/src/lang/ (32 files): [1.1] -Backport from trunk: language updates
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15:01<@planetmaker>Elukka: that nick is not easily confused with yours ;-)
15:01<Elukka>confused me :P
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15:02<@planetmaker>he's around longer... but... well. Let's say the quality of conversation differs
15:03<V453000>lets say his intelligence is more spread over the amount of the time he has been around
15:03<andythenorth>he doesn't talk here that much
15:03<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22937 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 6 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare 1.1.3
15:03<@planetmaker>nope, only(?) in the forums
15:03<andythenorth>he maanges to concentrate a lot of annoyance into a small number of words
15:04<@planetmaker>yeah. on a scale of 1...10 he reaches at least 9
15:05<V453000>I am 10? :P
15:06<Rubidium>V453000: nah, maybe F, but not 10 ;)
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>don't encourage him, man! :p
15:09*Rubidium also always wondered why an F was such a bad grade. It's a near 10
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>some countries have high numbers the worst grade :p
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>it's even more funny, they don't have an E
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>only A-D and F
15:11<@Alberth>turning a F into an E would be too easy :)
15:11<Rubidium>Alberth: a B is still easy as well
15:12<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22938 /tags/1.1.3/ (10 files in 4 dirs): -Release: 1.1.3
15:12<frosch123>hmm, there was some guy in school who had to do a seminar about writing html. when he came to colour codes, he said "f" would mean "full"
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>and once again it's not midnight for a long time!
15:12<Elukka>we do 4-10, 10 being the best
15:13<Elukka>no idea why it starts at 4
15:13<Elukka>some higher education is 5-1 where lower is best...
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>in east germany we had 5-1 where 1 was best, and after we switched to the western system, we had 6-1 with 1 best
15:14<frosch123>in my youth it was 6 - 1 for lower grades, 0 to 15 for higher grades, and 5 - 1 at university
15:15<frosch123>hmm, though some courses actually had 6-1 at university, where 5 meant "you are allowed to visit a second oral-exam", while 6 meant "totally failed"
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15:21<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22939 /trunk/ (changelog.txt docs/32bpp.txt known-bugs.txt readme.txt): -Merge: release documentation updates from 1.1
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>maybe the west german kids were dumber, so they needed the additional grade...
15:22<pjpe>i somehow doubt that
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>well, it doesn't really make sense otherwise to split "failed" into "well he _almost_ reached minimum standard" and "there is no hope for you whatsoever"
15:25<pjpe>sure there is
15:25<pjpe>there's a big difference
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>failed is failed...
15:26<pjpe>kinda sucks that the gpa at my university for marks under 50 is basically one big block of like
15:26<pjpe>0.7 or something
15:26<pjpe>there's a difference between never showed up to class or take any test and showed up all the time but barely failed
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>you get 50% right by just guessing...
15:27<pjpe>maybe at east german clown college
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15:27<pjpe>what would that be called
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>grade 4 (i.e. "barely passed") is usually given at 50% of the points
15:28<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that's also what a professor said when someone got 2 of 100 points in a test which contained on task which would give you 5 with that stategy
15:28<pjpe>why is there even a grade of 4
15:28<pjpe>why not just 0-100
15:28<pjpe>like normal
15:28<pjpe>like here!
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>pjpe: because differentiating between 87 and 84 is just too fine-scale
15:29<frosch123> pjpe: because those who fail the math tests, shall also know that they failed
15:29<pjpe>i can't imagine a world where my mark isn't in -100
15:29<pjpe>i will not have it
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>german grades can usually given a "+" or "-" if the fine scale is really needed
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15:31<Eddi|zuHause>in my university that is modelled by adding or substracting 0.3
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>where going outside the range [1,4] is forbidden
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>so the allowed values are 1.0 [best], 1.3, 1.7, 2.0, ..., 3.3, 3.7, 4.0 [passed]
15:32<Eddi|zuHause>and "failed", which doesn't have a number associated with it
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15:39<frosch123> <- Eddi|zuHause: industries could purchase vehicles via cb 18 :p
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: lmao :p
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15:53<@Alberth>another word
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15:59<MNIM>Bah, I doo this too often.
16:00<MNIM>I think up a reaction to something, then I get distracted and forget that I was going to say something
16:01<@Alberth>don't press 'ENTER' until you typed everything :)
16:01<@Alberth>and don't be afraid of not posting something :)
16:02<MNIM>Anyway. I was going to ask if it was possible to do the ecs thing with industries with separate parts of a building, but having the underground coloured like the industry too
16:02<MNIM>(and then being able to build anything of your choice on top of it)
16:06-!-DDR [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:13*Alberth believes 'build anything of your choice on top of it' was the trigger
16:13<MNIM>well, anything like rails, roads, busstops and stations
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>so you want to build rails on industry tiles?
16:15<andythenorth>terraforming near rivers is annoying
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yep, you risk way too easily to destroy the river
16:17<Elukka>i think there should be a 'indestructible rivers' toggle
16:18<@planetmaker>that would disallow building buoys and so on, too
16:18<Elukka>oh :/
16:18<MNIM>Not on industry tiles, exactly. More like the ground sprites of the industry extend to cover the ground inbetween
16:19<MNIM>In the ECS industries vector, like you see with the coal mine, I usually build my stations in the gap inbetween
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: like FIRS with CHIPS?
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16:22<MNIM>dunno, never actually used firs
16:22<MNIM>anyway, I meant like this
16:23<V453000>nice station
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16:23<V453000>or at least ... looks nice :)
16:23<MNIM>here it's a car factory consisting of two parts, with a bridge walkway over a road
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: so now you want the pavement of the road look like the industry next to it?
16:24<MNIM>pretty much
16:25<MNIM>personally, I think it would be an idea to have the road sprites contain the roads only, and not, like in that image a potentially mismatching roadside
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>that's going to be tricky
16:25<MNIM>or does OTTD not compute the terrain sprites under the roads?
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: yes, railtypes do that already
16:25<@planetmaker>MNIM: roadtypes ;-)
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>but that will only make grass/snow/desert appear, not industry ground
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>these checks have deliberately been left out of the railtype specs
16:27<MNIM>well, I know that with my current nutracks version, it does indeed give the correct terrain colour for the grassland, but the change from grass to snow still is abrupt
16:28<@planetmaker>yes, it can't be helped currently
16:33<MNIM>oh well, it still looks pretty, even with a mismatch here and there
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16:35<Eddi|zuHause>smooth snow transition under rail could be done with more map bits
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>sooner or later we need to consider the option to add an m8
16:36<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: FWIW there is no way I'm doing smoother snow for FIRS
16:36<@Yexo>it can even be done already if you don't care the update is instantanious instead of during the tileloop
16:36<andythenorth>smoother snow is over-rated
16:37<@planetmaker>smatz once had a patch for that iirc
16:39<@planetmaker>but snow transitions should be known w/o map bits. Same as desert transition
16:40<Eddi|zuHause>(visual) problem with that is during snow line movement the change will be simultaneous on all tiles
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>instead of piece by piece like the other tiles
16:41<@planetmaker>it wouldn't. As updates would be during the tile loop
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16:44<andythenorth>could the train window(s) show length?
16:44<andythenorth>as a numeric value?
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16:47<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: it would, since you cannot distinguish between "full snow" and "half snow" in the map bits, so transition between both would be instantaneous on changing the condition
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so instead of 1.0 it shows 16?
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>or you mean showing the length also outside the depot window?
16:48<andythenorth>the latter
16:48<andythenorth>it would help
16:49<andythenorth>currently I have to send train to depot to find its length
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17:05<Sacro>Bjarni! \o/
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17:19<Hirundo>planetmaker: If the transition is done during the tile loop, how would a tile know whether to draw the 'old' or 'new' state w/o map bits to store that info?
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17:29<__ln__>Bjarnius Hafniensis!
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18:31<Nite_Owl>Has the compile farm crashed again?
18:35<Nite_Owl>Oops - I forgot the dang time difference... later all
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19:24<Mr_Bones_>any ETA on 1.1.3 final? I'd like to avoid security masking 1.1.2 and just to a quick stable bump instead on Gentoo.
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>like... 3 hours ago?
19:25<Mr_Bones_>got a url for me? the web site isn't updated yet afaict.
19:27<Mr_Bones_>ah, got it, thanks. the news hasn't been posted but I see the files. great, thanks.
19:28<Mr_Bones_>would be nice if you guys would pull in something like the patch at
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>post it to
19:31<Mr_Bones_>looks like it needs a login. it would have to allow anonymous bug submissions for me to post there. that's ok, it's a small enough patch for me to continue maintaining it.
19:37<Pinkbeast>Oh, relationships with upstream, how we miss you...
19:38<@Terkhen>good night
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>Mr_Bones_: registration is required in case feedback is needed
19:49<Eddi|zuHause>which, honestly, is fairly likely, if you want to get a patch in
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 16 00:00:04 2011