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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-17

---Logopened Sat Sep 17 00:00:06 2011
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02:51<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: do we need grey 4 axle coaches?
03:02<Ammler>web down again'
03:04<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:18<Elukka>ah, they did exist - i suppose they may have been this type:
03:19<Diablo-D3>yay model trains
03:19<andythenorth>model trains will not even be 1px in game
03:19<andythenorth>I wouldn't bother
03:20<Elukka>i do have a few, though brawa is mostly out of my price range :P
03:20<Elukka>their site makes for good reference though
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03:21<pjpe>you know they have model trains in model trains now
03:21<pjpe>scale model railroads
03:21<pjpe>inside a scale model railroad
03:21<pjpe>you have model trains?
03:21<pjpe>the only ones i have are my father's g scale from like 40 years ago
03:21<pjpe>and i sure as hell ain't buying new ones
03:21<pjpe>so expensive
03:21<pjpe>i'm trying to do the modelling part
03:21<pjpe>without the trains
03:22<Elukka>i do
03:23<Elukka>not terribly many of them, though... that locomotive with its four freight wagons was almost 300 euros
03:23<Elukka>i do wish they were cheaper but i guess that's what you've got with a niche hobby
03:24<pjpe>you spent that money?
03:25<Elukka>you can get a bit cheaper, i just like my detail and sound :P
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03:25<pjpe>even if i had a job i wouldn't think of spending that
03:26<pjpe>yeah i'd go n-scale
03:26<pjpe>probably be even worse
03:26<pjpe>unless i snipe off ebay
03:26<pjpe>what base do you put your model railroad on
03:27<Elukka>60's germany
03:27<Diablo-D3>heh, I just had a funny idea
03:27<Diablo-D3>full sandbox mode for ottd
03:27<Diablo-D3>no money, no cargo, no gameplay
03:27<Elukka>i had this table made
03:28<Diablo-D3>trains just run and you fiddle with all the tiles
03:28<Elukka>didn't have the space or the skill to make it myself
03:28<Elukka>the buildings i'm trying to make myself
03:28<Elukka>first try:
03:28<Elukka>that's some cardboard type thing
03:28<pjpe>i started a small scene
03:28<pjpe>made some concrete abatements for a bridge
03:28<Elukka>the window frames are matches cut in half... vertically
03:29<pjpe>no idea what to put it on now
03:29<Elukka>that was a bit of a bitch
03:29<Diablo-D3>lookin kinda detroit there
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03:30<Diablo-D3>[03:26:36] <Elukka>
03:30<Diablo-D3>the cars look pretty good actually
03:30<Diablo-D3>needs more weathering on the wheelbases though
03:30<Diablo-D3>just avoid getting shit in the assembly
03:30<Elukka>i weathered them with chalk
03:30<Elukka>easy to wash off and redo if i mess up
03:31<Elukka>i don't seem to have a good color for wheelbase gunk though
03:33<Diablo-D3>Elukka: go improve your dry brush skills
03:34<Diablo-D3>dry brushing watered down silver and then griming over that gives realistic abuse imo
03:34<Elukka>chalk doesn't seem to take painting techniques that well and i'm scared to actually paint them
03:37<@peter1138>but _800x600.jpg is actually 660x600 :S
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03:37<Diablo-D3>peter1138: it fits in a 800x600 box ;)
03:40<Rubidium>so, why isn't it called 2000x2000?
03:41<Rubidium>it would fit in a 2000x2000 box as well, wouldn't it?
03:43<Elukka>why are we expecting my filenames to be accurate :P
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04:14<LordAro>yay! its coop ping timeout time!
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05:04<Elukka>ping timeout time is the best time
05:12<LordAro>of course :)
05:12<LordAro>hai Alberth
05:13<Ammler>LordAro: you have obviously no clue
05:14<Ammler>which is sad :'-(
05:17<appe>good morning
05:18<appe>what is the speed button based on?
05:18<appe>it seems like it tries to speed it up as much as the cpu will allow
05:18<Ammler>yes, to a certain max
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05:27<Elukka>i learned that when i sped up, alt tabbed and found the AI had connected almost everything and build mad bridge messes
05:27<Elukka>(once upon a time when i still used the old default AI for road vehicle)
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: try this reference:
05:34<Elukka>lots of good pictures there, thanks
05:35<appe>ah, german.
05:36<Elukka>my understanding of the text is limited to what google translate can salvage :P
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: says mostly something about how they were made from wood first and successively be replaced by iron and steel variants
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05:59<appe>i have a ..tip
05:59<appe>you know when you control click placing signals
05:59<appe>it fills the track
05:59<appe>that should be implemented on the conversion button
06:00<MNIM>the signal conversion button?
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>nice idea, but it would be helpful if we could have halftile-upgraded railtypes
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06:01<MNIM>yeah, either that, or click-drag conversion like railtype upgrading
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06:01<@Alberth>wouldn't it be easier to 'flood fill' all tracks from some starting point in that case?
06:02<MNIM>well, your style would mean that any connecting track would have it's signals replaced
06:03<MNIM>while I imagine some people would only want to upgrade the mainlines and keep the sidelines 'old school' (and save a bit as well)
06:03<@Alberth>oh, you are talking about signal conversion instead of railtype conversion
06:04<MNIM>well, I am
06:04<MNIM>not sure if appe does
06:05<appe>nono, railtype conversion
06:05<appe>flood-fill would be nice.
06:06<appe>at least as an option
06:06<@Alberth>could cause problems in a MP game
06:07<MNIM>hmmmh, perhaps, but I would rate adding a mass-conversion option for signaltypes a higher priority
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't use flood fill of the complete network... flood-fill of one line and manual conversion of the crossings
06:08<@Alberth>MNIM: I don't understand; you have all signal types always, why not build the right signals immediately?
06:08<appe>that sounds resonable.
06:08<@Alberth>no it doesn't
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: that never "realistically" happened anywhere
06:09<appe>what Eddi said, that is.
06:09<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: except by destroying all tracks, and putting in a new layout, perhaps :)
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: yep :)
06:10<@Alberth>which is already supported :p
06:10*Alberth adds a checkmark to the 'realistic signal replacement' feature
06:11<MNIM>eddi: note the quotes :p but yeah, the same reasons that apply to not all airports not being available at the beginning
06:11<MNIM>why have a timeline in ottd when you're not going to use it because it's easy?
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: with "realistic" railways, signals fall into the "never touch a running system" category
06:13<MNIM>true, but I don't see any old school signals when I look at modern railways
06:14<MNIM>so in the end, they did get replaced
06:14<@Alberth>more likely, the whole track got replaced
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06:15<@Alberth>good good, no need for the upgrade button anymore, either
06:15<@Alberth>hi andy
06:16<MNIM>then perhaps signal replacement should be an option as part of rail replacement?
06:16<Elukka>with PBS openttd already falls into the "never touch a running system" category :D
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06:16<Elukka>live, reserved paths and changes to the signaling... well, it results in Fun
06:17<Elukka>of the explodey kind
06:17<@Alberth>Elukka: you need more practice then :)
06:17<Elukka>oh, they work fine if i stop the trains before messing with my signals
06:18<MNIM>elukka: does that happen with just replacing the signaltype?
06:18<MNIM>I mean from semaphore signal to light signal?
06:18<Elukka>oh yeah that shouldn't do anything
06:19<Eddi|zuHause><MNIM> true, but I don't see any old school signals when I look at modern railways <- there are plenty of examples for old-school signals around
06:20<MNIM>not on a modern berlin-amsterdam line, I hope?
06:20<appe>now, someone have to remind me, isnt there a setting that makes cargoloading go instantaniously
06:21<MNIM>appe: advanced settings -> stations -> cargo handling -> use improved loading algorithm?
06:21<MNIM>could have to do with it, not sure though
06:21<MNIM>oh wait, my bad
06:21<MNIM>one line down
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: "modern" main line Halle-Magdeburg, station in Köthen
06:21<MNIM>'load cargo gradually'
06:22<appe>there we are, thank you
06:22<MNIM>are those in working order?
06:22<appe>im experimenting with the logic grf
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>of course they are...
06:22<MNIM>*mind blown*
06:23<MNIM>sorry, never seen that before
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06:25<MNIM>our town crazy was down?
06:28<Diablo-D3>whats with that little engine
06:30<LordAro>Alberth: this is my tab changing code. in my mind, it should work, but it segfaults :)
06:30<andythenorth>any chance of a working time patch? :(
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: what do you mean "little engine"?
06:31<Diablo-D3>the red boxed shaped thing with the wheels on the bottom.
06:32<@Alberth>LordAro: not working, I get 'internal server error'
06:32<MNIM>Alberth: it shows to me
06:32<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: it's perspectively shortened, it's actually one of the strongest engines the DB has
06:33<@Alberth>MNIM: weird
06:33<appe>jesus christ
06:33<appe>148 million pounds
06:34<MNIM>dude, are those systems actually compatible?
06:34<appe>i guess this goes for cheating.
06:34<@Alberth>appe: you can also cheat money away
06:35<appe>i dont really fancy cheating on money, though, i find it fun to experiment with speeds and grfs
06:35<MNIM>eddi: isn't the taurus loc stronger?
06:35<appe>for instance, instant loading+logic train+2048 map makes neat revenue
06:35*andythenorth ponders a hack
06:35<MNIM>also, electric locs are generally rather tiny compared to their non-electrified counterparts
06:35<Diablo-D3>Ive switched to 2cc btw
06:35<@Alberth>appe: how is that not cheating? :p
06:35<Diablo-D3>it seems to be better designed for gameplay
06:36<Diablo-D3>ie, no goddamned cabooses
06:36<appe>Alberth: its not like im trying to win something with it.
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: the DB doesn't have a lot of tauruses. and the taurus has lower TE
06:36*appe blames MNIM
06:37<Diablo-D3>I wonder how many people place bridges 1 height unit off the ground
06:37<Diablo-D3>I mean I know its 150 feet, but it looks strange
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: you missed the lengthy discussion where everybody wanted to have cabooses in the 2ccSet? :)
06:38<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: WWHHHYYY
06:38<Diablo-D3>I mean if the grf managed it
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: i try to have 2 height levels if possible
06:38<Diablo-D3>but doesnt
06:38<Diablo-D3>and they're not cross compatible between grfs
06:38<MNIM>oh, you mean how bridges seem rather low?
06:38<Diablo-D3>if people want a caboose, then make a damned caboose grf
06:38<Diablo-D3>MNIM: yeah
06:39<Diablo-D3>it seems like a waste of a bridge
06:39<MNIM>yeah, it's a bit odd
06:39<Diablo-D3>150 feet is a pretty high space
06:39<MNIM>ottd is full of little graphical tricks
06:39<appe>someone should make a grf with parameter settings for the amount of goods a cart can carry
06:39<appe>i tried, and gave up
06:39<LordAro>Alberth: apparently you fix that by deleting the cookie for it
06:39<Diablo-D3>MNIM: well, ottd scale is so totally fucked
06:40<MNIM>totally fucked, I wouldn't say that
06:40<Diablo-D3>like lots of grfs have cars less than half of a tile
06:40<Diablo-D3>to simulate shorter cars in the past
06:40<Diablo-D3>_they're doing it wrong_
06:40<Diablo-D3>give me huge car lengths
06:40<Diablo-D3>gigantic shit
06:40*Eddi|zuHause hides
06:40<MNIM>but yeah, ottd scale is a compromise for playability vs realism
06:41*andythenorth recalls a rule where swearing == kick
06:41<andythenorth>compulsive swearing == kban
06:41<Diablo-D3>like, engines should be entire tiles
06:41<MNIM>and to be realistic - ottd isn't that realistic
06:41<Diablo-D3>Im not asking for realism
06:41<@Alberth>LordAro: works, thanks!
06:41<Diablo-D3>I juist want it to look good
06:41-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
06:42<Diablo-D3>and having tiny little graphics I can barely see isnt good
06:42<MNIM>diablo, that's exactly the issue
06:42<MNIM>if it were with a real scale, your trains would be hardly visible in a big city
06:42<@Alberth>LordAro: nice :)
06:42<Diablo-D3>the cities would be bigger :D
06:43*Diablo-D3 drools
06:43<Diablo-D3>huge cities
06:43<MNIM>everything would be far, far bigger
06:43<Diablo-D3>I like where this is headed :D
06:43<MNIM>except for widths
06:43<Diablo-D3>but yeah like, I dunno
06:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: fancy dropping into #develop_firs ?
06:43<@Alberth>LordAro: but how to explain it to you :(
06:43<Diablo-D3>a lot of stuff just bugs the hell out of me
06:43<Diablo-D3>and theres no way to actually fix it
06:43<Diablo-D3>without turning ottd into a different game
06:43<@Alberth>LordAro: a moment
06:43<Diablo-D3>but having lengths that are less than half a tile just isnt doing it for me
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: any reason in particular?
06:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this channel is noisy
06:43<MNIM>also, aircraft would be about the size of what an airport is right now
06:44<Diablo-D3>the game runs on tile lengths, EVERYTHING
06:44<andythenorth>I can't keep up :P
06:44<Diablo-D3>MNIM: YES!
06:44<Diablo-D3>GIANT AIRPORTS!
06:44<Diablo-D3>DO WANT!
06:44<MNIM>and GIANT MAPS!
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: anything that can wait a week?
06:44<Diablo-D3>and realistic speeds!
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06:44<MNIM>where 2048x2048 is the smallest you go!
06:44<andythenorth>can wait a year if it has to :)
06:44<Diablo-D3>MNIM: YES!
06:45<Diablo-D3>well its either that or make subtile tracks and make everyone use zoom.
06:45<MNIM>if you want to keep your lowest zoom as it is now to find your buses
06:45<Diablo-D3>dude, I can barely find my busses as it is
06:45<MNIM>at lowest zoom, your airport would span several stations
06:45<Diablo-D3>this game has some serious damned issues
06:46<MNIM>I mean span several screens
06:46<Diablo-D3>and real airspeed :D
06:46<Diablo-D3>lets just ditch airports
06:46<Diablo-D3>they're largely a dumb hack anyhow
06:46*andythenorth ponders
06:46<appe>if i have a few hundred trains, and i wish to move them all to a new group
06:46<MNIM>your railway station including access rails would span half a map
06:46<appe>what to do
06:46<MNIM>appe: do they share orders?
06:46<Diablo-D3>MNIM: well the alternative
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>realistically sized airports! 256x256!!
06:46<Diablo-D3>is sub-tile tracks
06:46<Elukka><MNIM> also, electric locs are generally rather tiny compared to their non-electrified counterparts
06:46<Diablo-D3>and 32bpp zoom manditory
06:47<Elukka>i think european ones tend to be similar to the diesels but correspondingly more powerful
06:47<Elukka>american diesels are huge though
06:47<MNIM>eddi: exactly
06:47<andythenorth>I am thinking of recoding popular vehicle grfs with fake intro dates, basically offsetting them over an extra 100 years
06:47<MNIM>yeah, I meant as in diesel counterparts with comparable horseys
06:47<andythenorth>wonder if Pikka will let me do that with NARS and UKRS
06:47<Elukka>i think 3D graphics lend themselves better to realistic scale than 2D
06:47<appe>MNIM: mmmno.
06:47<Elukka>i don't see how TTD could be realistic scale and playable at the same itm
06:47<Elukka>*same time
06:47<V453000>andythenorth: what is that for? :)
06:48<andythenorth>because I want to play for longer
06:48<Elukka>it could have better scale, though
06:48<MNIM>well, if they had shared orders, you could just move one and then click 'add all shared vehicles'
06:48<andythenorth>patching grfs is much easier than patching time
06:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that's the worst approach for "daylength" i have ever heard
06:48<@planetmaker>vehicles never expire?
06:48<@planetmaker>and done
06:48<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's also the most likely to win
06:48<Elukka>ultimately ottd's scale is still today what was ideal for 1994 gameplay and screen resolutions
06:48<MNIM>well, if you ask me
06:49<MNIM>it's still ideal for 2010 resolutions
06:49<Diablo-D3>I dunno, graphics could be about 50% bigger imo
06:49<@planetmaker>or a proper daylength
06:49<Diablo-D3>1920x1200 on a 26", its kinda small
06:49<MNIM>I know I still wish I had more pixels at the end of my window sometimes
06:49<andythenorth>proper daylength is pretty much impossible
06:49<Elukka>everything is fairly tiny and signals rely on a few scant pixels to tell you what type they are
06:50<appe>MNIM: ah, ok. ill rethink the next time i make a gazillion trains
06:50<Elukka>it works and you get used to it but... if it was done today, i don't think the scale would be the same
06:51<MNIM>sadly, appe, such thoughts always come after you've done it, eh
06:52<MNIM>but transport sims aren't that popular anymore nowadays, are they?
06:52<MNIM>(mainly because no modern one exist)
06:52*MNIM adds an s to one or exist
06:53<andythenorth>I'd need to adjust dates in industry + house grfs
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>there exist one or two modern transport sims, but they haven't been that big successes
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>check for "cities in motion"
06:56<MNIM>ah, heard of that
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>and the other one, that was supposed to be multiplayer
06:57<MNIM>but as far as I know, it's nowhere near as open and versatile as ottd?
06:57<Elukka>anyone played CiM?
06:57<Elukka>MNIM that was my first thought too
06:57<Elukka>i'm curious if it has any merit for someone who already plays ottd
06:57<MNIM>I mean, OTTD is VAST
06:57<MNIM>there's so many possibilities to explore and things to build
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06:58<Eddi|zuHause>OTTD had 17 years of development behind it
06:58<MNIM>that too
06:58<appe>MNIM: it's funny. i have played openttd since 1948, and i find new things everyday.
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06:59<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I doubt that newgrf-approach to daylength is the right solution
06:59<@planetmaker>(it's not, it's conceptually more flawed than all other approaches)
06:59<@planetmaker>if you want to play forever you can have vehicles never expire and start in 2050. Problem already solved
06:59<@planetmaker>simply as it cannot address the principle issue: time still would seem to progress to fast
06:59<MNIM>1948? hahaha
06:59<MNIM>anyway, it's lunchtime here
07:00<andythenorth>planetmaker: the 'vehicles never expire' route destroys all gameplay progression
07:00<@planetmaker>it's ping-out time here it seems... :S
07:00<MNIM>so Im not going to be supplying (un)intelligent conversation right now
07:00<@planetmaker>andythenorth: not really. Just do it yourself. It's as flexibly adjustable as one could want
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07:01<@planetmaker>andythenorth: and as such, the time has to be adjusted in the game
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>i don't like too sandbox-y gameplay, it takes the incentive out to do anything
07:01<@planetmaker>As otherwise there'll be a big divergance between displayed time and newgrf-supplied 'feature-time'.
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you're better off using the year cheat
07:01<@planetmaker>Which is big nonsense to introduce
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>instead of changing all newgrfs
07:01<b_jonas>andythenorth: does it? you'll still want to replace to better vehicles to make your lines better
07:01<andythenorth>but the newgrf route is actually viable
07:02<andythenorth>whereas the others are not
07:02<@planetmaker>not really
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>no, it's not
07:02<andythenorth>why not? it's trivial
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>you have to change so many newgrfs
07:02<@planetmaker>not at all.
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>to make the timelines in synch
07:02<@planetmaker>what eddi says
07:02<b_jonas>however, I don't play with that option
07:02<b_jonas>I do prefer if vehicles break down and eventually support for them is phased out
07:02<b_jonas>like, when the reliability suddenly drops
07:03*andythenorth is tempted to do it just to prove the point
07:03<andythenorth>it's just a rebase of intro dates, it's trivial
07:03<b_jonas>just make sure that there's always at least one working vehicles for everything
07:03<andythenorth>the only problem is I don't have source for pikka's grfs
07:03<@planetmaker>andythenorth: it works for a single newgrf. But in an ugly way. It fails as soon as you use any (any!) non-andy newgrf
07:03<@Alberth>LordAro: I always start drawing pictures when I get confused. The horizontal bar are memory cells, each holding a character. Pointers p and q point to a cell, and copy characters, until the crash when they modify the yellow area
07:04<andythenorth>planetmaker: it's not a practical route without agreement from grf authors, which is the biggest problem
07:04<@planetmaker>which is the fundamental flaw. Not a problem, but the killer
07:05<andythenorth>if intro dates were a callback...
07:05<@planetmaker>the approach to accept yearly running costs or so to be wrong is the MUCH less worse solution
07:05<@planetmaker>wrong as in "not what newgrfs tell to use for normal daylength"
07:06<@planetmaker>as such, there is a way along these lines. It just has to be carefully crafted
07:06<@planetmaker>And no-one so far had the stamina to go through the newgrf details
07:06<@planetmaker>which is a pity
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro, Alberth: replacing \t with anything other than a single space is evil.
07:08<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: Sounds like a good compromise to me
07:11*andythenorth considers rebasing to 0
07:11<andythenorth>just treat dates as "delta from 0"
07:12<@planetmaker>andythenorth: that time really is MUCH better spent on adding a working daylength to openttd code
07:12<andythenorth>my understanding was that daylength is just fundamentally blocked?
07:12<LordAro>Alberth: nice picture! :)
07:12<andythenorth>or at least, without a significant change in the way date calculations are handled?
07:12<@planetmaker>andythenorth: where does that understanding come from?
07:13<andythenorth>discussions here
07:13<@Alberth>LordAro: yeah, my usual paper-based ones are much less nice :)
07:13<@planetmaker>well, of course you have to change *something* with the date... that's the point of *day*length
07:14<@planetmaker>the question probably is what needs adjustment and what is acceptable to change when daylength changes
07:14<@planetmaker>should monthly production of industries change? Should yearly running costs of vehicles change? What about purchase prices (why? why not?)
07:15<@planetmaker>what about the interval of recurring callbacks (256 ticks CB etc, tileloop,...)
07:15<LordAro>Alberth/Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that makes sense, so just 1 space then? just noticed the the 2cc set uses tabs for alignment quite a lot
07:16<@planetmaker>Mostly it needs a stringent and consistent way to deal with the answers and to justify them
07:17<@planetmaker>one could e.g. up the daylength by 2, thus up all yearly costs by two, but simply downgrade the displayed costs
07:17<@planetmaker>or something
07:17<@planetmaker>display may work with floats ;-)
07:18<@planetmaker>hm, the local football team scored a goal, I guess
07:18<@Alberth>LordAro: for anything larger than 1 character, you need to first decide how much additional space you need at least, and allocate that. Then you need to move the loaded text to the end of the array. Then you can do the copying.
07:20<LordAro>no then :D
07:21<@Alberth>you understand why that would work?
07:21<@Alberth>for learning C/C++ it is quite crucial to see how memory works in relation to data and pointers
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07:24<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: alternative is to implement handling of \t in DrawString
07:24<@Alberth>good point
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>but we just removed support for SetX
07:25<@planetmaker>yes... but for reading readmes... they might use \t a lot
07:25<andythenorth>planetmaker: the conceptual approach imo is *everything* should remain same, except how long irl it takes 1 unit of time to pass
07:25<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes.
07:25<andythenorth>adjusting industry production for example - would change the gameplay
07:26<andythenorth>I'm only interested in keeping gameplay identical
07:26<@planetmaker>not adjusting means they produce daylength times more per month
07:26<andythenorth>so by 'adjusting' I mean the final result
07:26<@planetmaker>not adjusting also means that all vehicle running costs are daylength more per month
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth, LordAro: but that sounds like a too little implementation detail to actually worry about.
07:27<@planetmaker>which then poses the question: what about purchase costs?
07:27<@planetmaker>same as? as now?
07:27<andythenorth>everything, same as now
07:27<andythenorth>vehicle speeds?
07:27<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but you can't keep yearly running costs and monthly production the same
07:27<andythenorth>for code reasons, or conceptual reasons?
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker, andythenorth: my last proposal was: muliply all purchase costs by daylength, divide all displayed costs by daylength
07:27<@planetmaker>what is 'the same'?
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07:27<MNIM>I wonder
07:28<@planetmaker>vehicles moving less per tick? or the same?
07:28<andythenorth>this is the most difficult question imo
07:28<@planetmaker>'keeping everything the same' needs a clearer definition
07:28<MNIM>does ottd have an updated debian/buntu repository?
07:28<@planetmaker>as 'everything the same' means 'no change in daylength'
07:28*Alberth wonders whether making a newgrf that extends availability of engines wouldn't be sufficient as an alternative for daylength
07:28<andythenorth>so lets test
07:28<@Alberth>hello Wolf01
07:28<MNIM>well, aside from the default ubuntu repos
07:28<andythenorth>assume the newgrf-with-fake-intro-dates route *was* viable (and assume I agree it's not)
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>'keep everything the same' means: just modify the sleep()-time per tick
07:28<@planetmaker>just changing the ticks per day: production and running costs increase accordingly
07:29<andythenorth>how would we patch the game to achieve same results as faking intro dates?
07:29<@planetmaker>what is 'faking intro dates'?
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>which is probably something that works well besides the daylength ideas
07:29<@planetmaker>that means that the year progresses in the same amount of ticks
07:29<andythenorth>so assume I want to play twice as long
07:29<@planetmaker>thus time progression is NOT changed
07:29<Rubidium>MNIM: just download the debian/ubuntu .debs from our server?
07:29<andythenorth>so truck 1 is introduced in 1950
07:30<andythenorth>currently truck 2 would be introduced in 1960
07:30<andythenorth>but in my fake-intro-date-grf I introduce it in 1970
07:30<@Alberth>planetmaker: I don't care about the year, I just want to play longer with eg steam trains
07:30<@planetmaker>Alberth: yes, that's what I want, too
07:30<MNIM>I know, I was just wondering if there was a repo hidden somewhere so It would just update like my Firefox upgrades
07:30<@planetmaker>But IMHO the displayed year should match
07:30<andythenorth>well yes, ideally
07:30<andythenorth>no argument there
07:30<MNIM>Im lazy: I like my auto-update
07:30<Rubidium>can anyone confirm that SDL + big endian platform works correctly with the 8bpp blitter?
07:30<Wolf01>still talking about daylength?
07:30<@planetmaker>as such, personally, I don't care if monthly cargo production skyrockets or yearly running costs and yearly revenue
07:31<@planetmaker>they're just proportionally higher, date is fine, etc
07:31<@planetmaker>a day would just get more ticks and done
07:31<Wolf01>if somebody would like to help me I could finish the fake dates patch
07:31<andythenorth>I care
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: instead of changing 800 introduction years, you should just display a fake date, like Wolf01's last daylength approach
07:31<andythenorth>but I thought that was conceptually stuck?
07:31<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: but wrt introduction etc. it has to be a real date
07:32<@planetmaker>it simply was not finished, andythenorth
07:32<@planetmaker>that's a difference IMHO
07:32<@Alberth>planetmaker: so what's wrong with having a newgrf that extends the lifetime of the engines and/or gives me more engines at a later date?
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07:32<IchGuckLive>Hi all
07:32<@Alberth>hi IchGuckLive
07:32<@planetmaker>Alberth: that's IMHO not a daylength
07:32<andythenorth>I never asked for daylength :)
07:32<andythenorth>I specifically didn't mention daylength
07:32<@planetmaker>under daylength I understand a setting where I say "time should progress more slowly"
07:33<IchGuckLive>if i take the station diract to the source is this the same then the in the Range ?
07:33<@planetmaker>But introduction dates of vehicles doesn't change. But displayed time progression is slower
07:33<MNIM>Hey Diablo-D3, you were the one who said that plane speeds were disproportional?
07:33<Wolf01>Alberth, but you will be tied to one grf
07:33<@planetmaker>but IMHO the visual vehicle speed should now slow down to a crawl. That'd be a pain
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: problem is we can read between the lines :p
07:33<@Alberth>planetmaker: I was not considering day length, just making a certain era of engines longer available
07:33<IchGuckLive>Thanks and
07:33<Wolf01>with the patch you can use any grf
07:33<LordAro>hmm. so, forget the tabs to multiple spaces thing. question: why does IsPrintable() not return false for '\r' ?
07:34<@planetmaker>Alberth: yes, but that's IMHO the only purpose of daylength
07:34<@Alberth>Wolf01: true, that's a (huge) disadvantage
07:34<andythenorth>I don't understand what is gained by daylength patch
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07:34<@Alberth>andythenorth: all grfs work again
07:34<@planetmaker>just saying "steam engines in _this_ newgrf are introduced later" doesn't cut it as you have to modify ALL newgrfs to match
07:34<andythenorth>my understanding of daylength is that it slows down time?
07:34<@planetmaker>thus it needs an openttd-side solution
07:34<MNIM>Have you looked at Advanced settings -> Vehicles -> Plane speed factor, Diablo-D3?
07:34<andythenorth>so production is slower, vehicle speed is slower
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: exactly what you asked, it spreads the availability dates of vehicles
07:35<MNIM>set it to 1/1, aircraft should now fly 'real' speeds
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>vehicle speed and production is the same
07:35<andythenorth>I want 365.25 * n days per year :P
07:35<andythenorth>which would probably come to same as daylength
07:35<@planetmaker>that has the issue that vehicles crawl over the screen
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>actually, production was always the most disputed piece
07:35<Wolf01>andythenorth, production and speed are the same, you only calculate it monthly, every 6 months, every 3 months based on the reduction factor
07:36<andythenorth>so if unpatched, industry produces 96t in Feb, when patched, it also produces 96t in feb
07:36<Wolf01>the fake date patch doean't affect the economy at all
07:36<andythenorth>so what is it stuck on?
07:36<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, it produces 96*daylength
07:36<@planetmaker>andythenorth: vehicles moving at a pace of a snail
07:37<andythenorth>why, and why, respectively?
07:37<@planetmaker>even the concorde, if n = 10
07:37<andythenorth>you make assumptions that don't hold
07:37<andythenorth>or you indicate why this isn't possible
07:37<b_jonas>the problem with affecting the length of the year is that it also changes the lifetime of each vehicle you buy
07:37<andythenorth>one or the other
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: production is not date-based
07:37<@planetmaker>it's tick-based ^
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: production is tick-based
07:37<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: and that is one of the blockers
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: production happens every 256 ticks
07:38<Wolf01>example: 96t production on FEB become -> 96t production on last three months
07:38<b_jonas>wouldn't you still want a single train to work for only 20 or 30 years, but new types of train introduced only every 20 years?
07:38<Wolf01>with a 4x factor
07:38<@planetmaker>x3? ;-)
07:39<b_jonas>also, even if production is using ticks, does the station reputation and city reputation also not use dates?
07:39<Wolf01>1 month = 3 months
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: actually that is backwards, 96t per month turn into 96t per week
07:39<LordAro>question2: is there a better way of representing a space, other than ' ' ?
07:39<Wolf01>ok, yes
07:39<andythenorth>I don't see how to solve the production issue
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: why?
07:39<@planetmaker>change the displayed values
07:39<Wolf01>I saw it from the faked date perspective
07:40<@planetmaker>though then it will be funny, if a wagon is fully loaded with 1.5 passengers
07:40<andythenorth>it won't just be production
07:40<andythenorth>there's animation counters, town production, breakdown length, servicing
07:40<andythenorth>etc etc
07:40<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: just doesn't seem quite right, i would've thought there would be something like '\t'
07:40<b_jonas>wouldn't it be better to just adjust the introduction years of all trains at the start of the game/
07:40<b_jonas>and all other similar years that come from grfs
07:41<Wolf01>animations will continue to be tick based
07:41<@planetmaker>yes, there's such things. They'll all have to be judged
07:41<Wolf01>I just change the "periods of time"
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: space is not a special character
07:41<@planetmaker>But that doesn't make it 'impossible'.
07:41<b_jonas>including the introduction year of oil towers
07:41<andythenorth>accepting the 'wrong' year issue seems like a relatively small problem compared to rewriting most of the game's time handling
07:41<andythenorth>hence the appeal of fake-intro-date-newgrfs
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: but maybe '\x20' or something
07:42<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but it's the wrong place. it makes things terribly inconsistent all over the place
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: but that doesn't make any sense to use
07:42<@planetmaker>just because 'it can be hacked around by newgrfs' doesn't make it the proper solution
07:42<@planetmaker>as you need to hack EVERY newgrf
07:42<@planetmaker>for a single game
07:43<andythenorth>I know :(
07:43<andythenorth>but you can see the appeal?
07:43<@planetmaker>or houses won't match trains won't match ships won't match industries
07:43<@planetmaker>no, I don't
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, i only see the disadvantages
07:43<@planetmaker>as doing it for all newgrfs I need for a single game is more work than doing it roughly in OpenTTD
07:44<Wolf01>or just create another property which works for all the compatible grfs and they set the intro dates accordingly to the option which does absolutely nothing for the standard grfs
07:44<Wolf01>just a value in the options
07:44<b_jonas>hey, I'm not saying it should be done by newgrfs
07:44<b_jonas>but by an option in advanced settings that changes all those years when it loads grfs
07:44<@planetmaker>that's an openttd-solution which is way better than the newgrf-solution
07:44<@planetmaker>as it automatically works for all
07:45<@planetmaker>and that might make sense
07:45<@planetmaker>you just add on top a fake year display and you're done
07:45<@planetmaker>except the many rough edges ;-)
07:45<LordAro>Eddi|zuHause: fine. just seems wrong, like using ' ' (thats supposed to be a tab btw)
07:45<andythenorth>we have to find *all* the rough edges :(
07:45<andythenorth>however, I'm prepared to help test :)
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07:46<Eddi|zuHause>LordAro: differnce is that \t is a "not-displayable" character (<0x20)
07:46<Diablo-D3>MNIM: its not that plane speeds are disproportional
07:46<Diablo-D3>its that their existence is
07:46<MNIM>how so?
07:46<andythenorth>(discussing gameplay not implementation)....time should roughly scale with map size
07:46<Diablo-D3>much much much smaller in scale than everything else
07:46<andythenorth>in original ttd, if anything, there was too long between vehicle upgrades
07:47<@planetmaker>should it? I don't think there's a relation between the two ;-)
07:47<andythenorth>well on a big map there's more to do
07:47<@planetmaker>but that doesn't matter, if they can be freely adjustable
07:47<Diablo-D3>MNIM: they dont fit
07:47<MNIM>well yeah, a jumbojet the size of a single tile containing as many passengers as a whole train
07:47<Diablo-D3>MNIM: all the other broken scales could be legitimately fixed
07:48<MNIM>diablo: you build the 3d engine needed to properly do that?
07:48<Diablo-D3>like, honestly, make industries and city buildings 2x bigger
07:48<Diablo-D3>MNIM: several already exist
07:48<andythenorth>Diablo-D3: what's gained by this work?
07:48<Diablo-D3>andythenorth: its more fun
07:48<andythenorth>on what basis?
07:49<MNIM>none of them as versatile and complicated as ottd. also, most of 'em aren't to schale either.
07:49<b_jonas>what? no way
07:49<@Alberth>Diablo-D3: and an airport about 1000x100 tiles ?
07:49<Diablo-D3>it looks like Im playing final fantasy train edition.
07:49<Diablo-D3>Alberth: yeah thats the problem
07:49<Diablo-D3>I'd rather just get rid of planes
07:49<andythenorth>Diablo-D3: is the issue you can't see the pixels?
07:49<andythenorth>or that you want realism?
07:49<andythenorth>or what?
07:49<Diablo-D3>andythenorth: its a tad hard to see sometimes, yes
07:49<andythenorth>that's a valid issue
07:50<@planetmaker>realism :-D
07:50<Diablo-D3>train/truck scale mismatch is okay though
07:50<andythenorth>realism is not a valid issue
07:50<Diablo-D3>this game isnt real at all
07:50<Wolf01>my target was to have day length and game speed adjustable, so you can also play with standard day length and reduced speed (good to have all under control in some situations like modifying a junction/signalling or to shunt stuck trains) or play at the fastest speed with huge day length
07:50<Diablo-D3>no one pretends it to be
07:50<Diablo-D3>andythenorth: the obsessiveness with train car size is bad too
07:50<Diablo-D3>no train car size should ever be below half a tile
07:51<Diablo-D3>like, one of the grfs I had loaded had like 1/10th of a tile
07:51<Diablo-D3>seriously, wtf
07:51<@planetmaker>Wolf01: why don't you finish one first (preferably vehicles moving the same)?
07:51<Diablo-D3>you cant even see the cars
07:51<appe>is there a maglev grf with bigger carts?
07:51<Wolf01>lack of knowledge, code style, and will :P
07:51<Diablo-D3>I mean if they want that, make gigantic multi-tile stuff
07:51<andythenorth>Wolf01: does the patch work at all?
07:51<@planetmaker>:-( @ Wolf01
07:51<Wolf01>yes, the fake dates work
07:52<Diablo-D3>sure it turns into some bizzaro narrow width model train
07:52<Wolf01>I should update it
07:52<Diablo-D3>but at least it looks usable
07:52<@planetmaker>yes it worked. And when it was about to get the fine-tuning it was abandoned :-(
07:52<andythenorth>Wolf01: will it work with savegames from trunk ottd?
07:52<@planetmaker>when all people got excited
07:53<Wolf01>it should, but the faked date will be initialised from the year you start
07:53<andythenorth>fine by me
07:53<andythenorth>it's in the dev forums?
07:53<Wolf01>as I remember, yes, it is
07:53<@planetmaker>half a year(?) or so back
07:54<@planetmaker>maybe one
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07:56<andythenorth>it won't apply with my usual method
07:56<andythenorth>curl | patch -p1
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: how about drawing an engine for a change? :)
07:57<Elukka>but that's hard D:
07:57<Wolf01>it's a svn diff
07:57<andythenorth>Elukka: that one's just a box :)
07:57<andythenorth>start small
07:57<appe>anyone of you use the logic trainset regulary?
07:57<andythenorth>so I have to figure out svn diffs...
07:57<Elukka>i could do that once i get the 4 axle coaches done
07:57<Elukka>which i would but i'm playing games :P
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>it's almost a wagon with pantographs on top. just the transformator in the front is slightly irregular
07:58<appe>it has a maximum speed of >60.000km/h. with one cart or more it's less then 11.000. can i use a setting to max it anyway?
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>appe: that's the relativistic effect
07:59<andythenorth>so how do I apply an svn diff to a hg repo?
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>60.000km/h is 0.2*c
07:59<@Alberth>patch -p0 < file.patch
08:00<appe>uhm, Eddi|zuHause 60.000km/*s* is 0.2*c, afaik.
08:00<andythenorth>hunks fail with -p0
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>hm, right
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>small rounding error :p
08:01<andythenorth>Hunk #2 FAILED at 147.
08:01<andythenorth>1 out of 2 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file src/statusbar_gui.cpp.rej
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then the patch is outdated
08:01<appe>Eddi|zuHause: i would not like my 6500 tonne train to de-rail in 0.2c.
08:01<appe>that would be planet splitting in action
08:01<b_jonas>isn't speed of light higher in openttd?
08:01<Wolf01>it's very outdated r21872 or r22157
08:02<@Alberth>andythenorth: normally, the revision is mentioned in the header of a file
08:03<appe>a realistic way to determine the speed of light in the openttd universe would be to calculate how many calculations the cpu can handle with the speed-button on, and then putting that number in the <maximum speed>-parameter
08:04<appe>would be neat to have a 6kilotonne train do terraflops of kilometers an hour
08:04<appe>"so, how's openttd going for you?" "-yeah, it's neat. im doing 1.6terraparsecs at the moment".
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08:05<andythenorth>why won't that patch?
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: that's probably the most complicated to draw: (if you want a real challenge :p)
08:06<andythenorth> SetDParam(0, MAX_YEAR * DAYS_IN_YEAR);
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds wrong
08:07<andythenorth>l let me check I didn't misunderstand
08:08<andythenorth>trunk seems to have that
08:12*Alberth guesses in size calculation
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: problem with that is that it results in "31st Dec 5000000", but "30th Dec 5000000" is potentially longer
08:14<andythenorth>what should I do?
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>i'd probably add a margin
08:15<andythenorth>all I want to do is apply wolf's patch :(
08:15<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it's even worse ;)
08:15<Rubidium>@calco 5000000/4/365
08:15<Rubidium>@calc 5000000/4/365
08:15<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 3424.65753425
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: oh, right ;)
08:16<Rubidium>it's somewhere in 4999990
08:16<JVassie>@calc 1/0
08:16<@DorpsGek>JVassie: Error: float division
08:18<Wolf01>andythenorth, try with my patch and not the updated one
08:18<Wolf01>but then you have to update it by yourself :P
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 5000000*0.2425
08:18<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1212500
08:19<andythenorth>how about a patch that uses the date cheat to rewind the year at year end
08:19<andythenorth>while count < n
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08:20<andythenorth>count++ every year end
08:20<andythenorth>if count >= n, count = 0
08:20<andythenorth>job done
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08:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you have longer leap years ;)
08:21<andythenorth>and vehicles become available, then become unavailable again briefly
08:21<andythenorth>bit like real life when production problems prevent shipping
08:21<andythenorth>make 'n' an advanced setting
08:21<andythenorth>problem solved
08:22<andythenorth>everything else works as normal
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>"count++%=n" is probably evil :p
08:22<andythenorth>anyone want to code it for amusement?
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'd guess it's undefined there whether that results in 0 or n
08:24<@Alberth>count++ is not an lvalue :)
08:24<+glx>add parenthesis ;)
08:24<+glx>but indeed that can't work
08:27<andythenorth>if (count<n) { year = current_year -1; count = 0 } else { count++ }
08:27<andythenorth>except in c++
08:28<andythenorth>that's wrong
08:28<andythenorth>if (count<n) { year = current_year -1; count ++ } else { count =0 }
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08:33<Eddi|zuHause> (concept, doesn't compile, does not have saveload support)
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08:34<Eddi|zuHause>err... wrong
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>should be better now
08:37<andythenorth>'garbage in the patch input'
08:37<andythenorth>we solved that once before...
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>curl -L
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>you should always do that
08:38<andythenorth>fails to compile :)
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>replace YEAR_COUNT with a random number of your choice
08:39<andythenorth>1 = 2?
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>that's kinda useless then :p
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>1 is "original behaviour"
08:40*andythenorth tests
08:40*andythenorth wants a faster compiler
08:40<andythenorth>it takes over a minute
08:40<@Alberth>make -j
08:40<andythenorth>I use that :)
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>anyone ever noticed that when you change it so MAX_YEAR==ORIGINAL_END_YEAR, the year-loop doesn't work?
08:41<@Alberth>make -j 4
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>should remove the "else" in that section of code
08:42<MNIM>Im currently cheating myself a mountain range and a coastal line lined with fjords
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>bah... *should not fiddle with code*
08:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: works
08:43*andythenorth contends that's the least broken date/time patch so far
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there's so many things broken with that...
08:44<andythenorth>vehicle introductions, money
08:44<andythenorth>graphics that change by date
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>year 2050 is broken
08:44<andythenorth>I'm going to use it anyway
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>saveload is broken
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>the year count is lost on saveload
08:45<andythenorth>not worth worrying about
08:45<andythenorth>this is a fool's patch anyway :)
08:45<andythenorth>it's clearly a wrong route
08:45<andythenorth>yet it achieves the result I want
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08:57<andythenorth>patching FIRS station ratings was a very good move. The result is fun
08:57<andythenorth>although I now have an RV problem :P
08:59<@Terkhen>are you testing egrvts2? :)
09:00<andythenorth>not yet
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09:07*andythenorth suggests pipelines
09:11<@Alberth>auto-add money to your bank account every day
09:17*Prof_Frink suggests Portals
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09:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you should finish the year cheat patch and ship it in trunk :D :P
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt that
09:41<andythenorth>it's awesome
09:42<@Terkhen>what patch? replay the same year forever?
09:42*LordAro always enjoys reading mb's bug reports/feature requests :)
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: for a fixed number of times
09:43<andythenorth>replay the same year for n
09:43*andythenorth has a very fickle reason for wanting roadtypes
09:44<andythenorth>option for trams without catenary
09:44<andythenorth>then add more industrial narrow gauge to HEQS
09:45<@Terkhen>just drop them into normal trams too :P
09:47<@Terkhen>the sprites are too small to notice those things, let them all use the same track :P
09:48<andythenorth>I notice catenary :)
09:49<@Terkhen>remove it for all trams
09:49<andythenorth>Terkhen: they would all use the same track
09:49<@Terkhen>it's suboptimal, but... :)
09:49<andythenorth>it's just same as rail vs elrail
09:49<andythenorth>I've played with catenary off for a bit
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>i remember one of my first appearances in this channel was "i can't get elrail.grf to work"
09:51<Rubidium>I guess it doesn't work again ;)
09:52<andythenorth>farms at one end of river
09:52<andythenorth>grain mill at other
09:52<andythenorth>what to do?
09:52<JVassie>play with the traffic?
09:52<Rubidium>use a plane
09:52<Eddi|zuHause>flatten the landscape and build massive maglev network!
09:53<@Terkhen>destroy the river
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>about these river docks...
09:54<andythenorth>I just spent all my money prospecting :(
09:56<appe>i have a small signal issue
09:56*JVassie points and laughs
09:56<JVassie>oh wai..
09:56<appe>three tracks, three trains
09:57<appe>i want them to choose the nearest free station
09:57<JVassie>define nearest
09:57<appe>one of the three on the right
09:57<JVassie>as opposed to?
09:58<appe>when using the system as displayed on the picture, they rarely choose en empty station
09:58<appe>mostly, they just wait behind each other
09:58<JVassie>which version of (o)ttd(p) you using?
09:58<andythenorth>remind me why cargo can't be round-robined to industries when a station overlaps more than one accepting industry?
09:59<JVassie>This document was successfully checked as HTML5!
09:59<JVassie>Result: Passed, 1 warning(s)
09:59<JVassie>read that link appe :)
10:00<JVassie>path signals would be best
10:04<appe>hm, ok
10:04<appe>ill try it out
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: because nobody implemented it
10:11<andythenorth>the usual
10:11<andythenorth>has anybody else tried a FIRS game with the station ratings patch?
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10:11<Diablo-D3>station settings?
10:11<@Terkhen>I'm starting a 0.7.0 beta game now
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10:12<andythenorth>if anything, the ratings are a little too generous
10:12<andythenorth>also, it might be useful to implement a decay after n years
10:13<andythenorth>currently I have 900t cargo waiting at a station I served by accident about 50 years ago
10:13<Diablo-D3>I wish I could turn off supply altogether
10:13<appe>hm, i have a 64-square station, and 64-square trains filling up. how come it stays at the station (with 100% loaded) for 30-40 seconds?
10:14<Diablo-D3>just click like "do not take coal" and it disables coal delivery, dumps the coal off the station, and removes the coal rating
10:16<@Terkhen>appe: my guess is that those huge sizes are messing with the pathfinder
10:17<@Terkhen>the train has 64 possible ways of getting to the station :P
10:17<@Terkhen>to the next*
10:19<@Alberth>do you use time tables?
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: just drop the rating to 0 after 2 years of nothing picked up?
10:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: something like that yes
10:27<andythenorth>Maybe Yexo has an opinion - as he coded it?
10:31<Eddi|zuHause> <-- interesting graphs on online-journalism quality (german)
10:31<@Terkhen>after 10 minutes playing I find something to code
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>i know that feeling :p
10:32<andythenorth>after 5 mins of playing, I find something for someone else to code :P
10:33<andythenorth>someone did draggable roadstops
10:33<@Terkhen>they have been in for long :P
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>was that one of Wolf01's patches?
10:34<@Terkhen>one of my favourites :P
10:34<@Terkhen> <--- I wonder how no one has noticed this
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>sloped road stations are still not in.
10:35<@Terkhen>the patch was not finished IIRC
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: looks like an obiwan in text height calculation
10:35*Terkhen tries different font sizes
10:36<@planetmaker>what exactly in that screeny, Terkhen?
10:36<@Terkhen>black lines in the water, a result of dragging the ship window around
10:36<@Terkhen>the long letters cause them
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: black dots leftover from dragging the window
10:37<@planetmaker>oh, I didn't see them :-)
10:37<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: that was a frequent sight back when lines were not cropped on length
10:37<Rubidium>Terkhen: does it happen with the original font as well? Otherwise the OpenGFX font is just a pixel too high
10:38<@Terkhen>it's using arial
10:38<@Terkhen>my guess is that it does not happen with either sprite font, let's see
10:38<@Terkhen>with bigger fonts it is even more visible
10:40<@Terkhen>yes, opengfx and ttdoriginal are clean of this problem
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11:28<Eddi|zuHause>"Steam - downloading Portal (73%)" man... that takes forever...
11:29-!-Adambean [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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11:35<@Terkhen>worth the wait :P
11:35<Diablo-D3>you can only beat it so many times before you start speed running it by accident
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12:12<Eddi|zuHause>so, planetmaker, your roads swallow cars nowadays?
12:13<@planetmaker>nice :-)
12:13<@planetmaker>well... spice worms are everywhere, you know
12:14<@planetmaker>but he's on a diet. No devestator. Just a small buggy...
12:36<andythenorth>I figure FIRS could use another destination for Metal
12:36<andythenorth>Metal -> Building Materials could be valid
12:36<andythenorth>currently the destinations are Foundry (Goods, Man. Supplies), and Machine Shop (Farm Supplies, Eng. Supplies)
12:36<andythenorth>and the Forge, which is only valid before about 1870
12:42<@planetmaker>milk maybe could go to shops
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>car factory accepting metal and man. supplies, or only man. supplies
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>remove goods from foundry then
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>(i suggested that before)
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>foundry: metal -> msup, bdmt; car factory: msup -> good
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>(msup representing metal parts, plastic, glass)
12:51<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: a car factory is planned for at least one economy, yes
12:52<andythenorth>as lots of sets have car transporters, perhaps it's a good idea
12:54<@Alberth>finally I can take my car with me when going on holiday to a luxurious resort
12:54<Wolf01>somebody invented real-life-zip?
12:55*Alberth wishes that, in RL I don't have such a car :p
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13:33<b_jonas>so you can buy trucks in car factories cheaper?
13:34<@planetmaker>I would expect trucks are produced in truck factories while car factories build cars ;-)
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>so at night it's colder than outside?
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>"Dunkel wars, der Mond schien helle"
13:36<@planetmaker>"als ein Auto blitzeschnelle, langsam um die Ecke bog"
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>"Schneebedeckt die grüne Flur"
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>"als ein Auto blitzeschnelle"
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>"langsam um die Ecke fuhr"
13:38<@planetmaker>"Drinnen saßen stehend Leute"
13:38<@planetmaker>"schweigend ins Gespräch vertieft"
13:38<@planetmaker>"als ein totgeschossener Hase"
13:38<@planetmaker>"auf der Sandbank Schlitschuh lief"
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22940 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt slovak.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: latvian - 29 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: slovak - 160 changes by klingacik
14:01*andythenorth considers having foundry produce building materials instead of goods
14:01<andythenorth>and introducing a factory
14:01<andythenorth>but maybe a car plant is best
14:01<andythenorth>I suppose increasing the number of cargos is out of the question?
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14:05<b_jonas>I actually think the default mediterranian industry tree in openttd is well designed, and don't want to switch.
14:05<b_jonas>but then, it's best if you experiment
14:07<andythenorth>I want to add an Auto Parts cargo, but I'm out of slots
14:07<JVassie>make more slots
14:08<andythenorth>let me know when that's done :P
14:08<andythenorth>I have one spare, but that's needed for regearing by NARS 2
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>screw NARS 2. regearing cargo is a totally wrong concept
14:12<andythenorth>it is
14:12<andythenorth>but I'm playing a game with it at the moment
14:12<andythenorth>it's fun
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>implement livery refits without an actual cargo
14:13<andythenorth>maybe locomotives should get another 16 special slots
14:13<andythenorth>like persistent storage
14:13<andythenorth>someone would think up some evil :/
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>"cargo subtype" is pretty much "persistent storage"
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>and you have animation frame as well
14:14<andythenorth>yeah, but it needs a cargo
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that is exactly the problem
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>it should be extended so you don't need a cargo
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>there's an old thread in the newgrf technical forum about "views" for vehicles
14:17<andythenorth>so I should add the Auto Parts cargo?
14:17<andythenorth>that's really it then for FIRS, 32 cargos defined
14:17<andythenorth>might need a bit of discussion first
14:18<Diablo-D3>wtf is cargo regearing anyhow?
14:19<V453000>play NARS, see for yourself
14:19<Diablo-D3>I did
14:19<Diablo-D3>infact I dumped nars and ukrs
14:19<Diablo-D3>the only thing I saw was some vehicles said they didnt carry gears.
14:20<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking the following. rubber plantation -> chemicals.
14:20<andythenorth>chemicals -> tyre factory -> auto parts
14:21<V453000>andythenorth: some further cargoes for FIRS? :o
14:21<andythenorth>maybe one
14:21<andythenorth>might be a bad idea
14:21<andythenorth>feel free to stamp on it
14:21<andythenorth>possible manufacturing supplies does the same when analysed
14:21<Diablo-D3>I switched to 2cc
14:21<Diablo-D3>but... I dunnno
14:21<Diablo-D3>I think I accidently made the game not fun
14:23<V453000>andythenorth: is there any version to test, or are there no new industry types since r2081?
14:23<andythenorth>V453000: I'd have to check repo
14:23<andythenorth>there are new industries since 0.6.4
14:23<V453000>dont bother, I was just wondering
14:23<V453000>oh :) then I might be quite interested :p
14:24<andythenorth>there are 4 new, and some changes
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think manufacturing supplies should be enough
14:24<andythenorth>could be
14:24<andythenorth>I really want a tyre plant :P
14:25<andythenorth>and a rubber plantation
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>rubber plantation -> chemical plant -> manufacturing supplies
14:25<andythenorth>although both are possible :)
14:25<V453000>ooh recyclables :)
14:26<V453000>when is 0.7 expected?
14:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the current 'plastics plant' could be renamed
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>christmas. :p
14:26<andythenorth>V453000: there's a beta now, forums / bundle server only
14:26<Diablo-D3>you know what the problem with the game is, really?
14:26<Diablo-D3>its impossible to make a profitable route now
14:26<andythenorth>how do I block someone?
14:26<Diablo-D3>and Im not sure what I did
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>block from what?
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>/ignore Diablo-D3
14:27<andythenorth>V453000: there might not be a bananas release of 0.7.x due to ottd compatibility; we might go straight to 0.8.0
14:27<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: hurrr.
14:27<Diablo-D3>Seriously, its really damned difficult to make a profitable route with the settings Im using
14:28<V453000>andythenorth: sorry, I was just in folder firs.nml :D
14:28<andythenorth>why sorry?
14:28<V453000>needless questions :P
14:29*andythenorth likes to talk
14:29<V453000>btw I just completed all my wagons today with full support of FIRS :P
14:29<Diablo-D3>Im actually wondering of ECS is just screwed
14:30<Diablo-D3>due to really tiny industry limits, basically once a route is profitable, the route wont accept more cargo
14:30<Diablo-D3>and it takes a few chains of shit to dump cargo off completely
14:32<andythenorth>V453000: the recycling plant produces randomised output cargos (decided when it constructs)
14:32*Eddi|zuHause hides
14:32<SpComb>gaaah, date-links
14:32<SpComb>those are timezone-dependent!
14:32<V453000>hmm, so what are the additional cargoes? recyclables, and some other?
14:32<V453000>ok :)
14:32<andythenorth>alcohol maybe?
14:32<V453000>I have alcohol involved
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: i can't link to lines from that page
14:33<andythenorth>that was in 0.6
14:33<andythenorth>V453000 just one extra cargo
14:33<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: yes you can, it's just kind of... hidden
14:33<V453000>good :)
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: and then just put the timezone into the link
14:33<George>Diablo-D3: Pleas provide detailed feedback. What exectly do you suggest. Saying "is just screwed" is not much profitable
14:33<SpComb>mouse-hover on the left of the timestamp
14:33<V453000>guess I have something to draw then :P
14:34<Diablo-D3>George: Im not suggesting anything
14:34<Diablo-D3>Im just wondering if ECS just isnt fun
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: that's _really_ hidden
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: once upon a time you could hover over the timestamp
14:34<George>You are not wondering. You are saing you impression
14:34<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: perhaps.. :)
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>but the line i was actually searching for isn't in my logs, so i can't properly grep for it...
14:35<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: I have 15 registered users with 23 registered hostmasks; 3 owners and 0 admins.
14:35<Diablo-D3>George: well, if, say, ten train trips fill an industry
14:35<Diablo-D3>George: and the industry wont process fast enough
14:35<Diablo-D3>Im screwed
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>hm, not wat i was searching fore...
14:36<George>ten train trips fill an industry <- show a savegame ;)
14:36<Diablo-D3>George: I know I can turn off stockpile limits, but ECS wasnt meant to be played that way
14:36<Diablo-D3>George: I had trains that did like 900 tons of coal per trip
14:37<Diablo-D3>and the limit was like 8000 tons
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: i think your search is broken
14:37<SpComb>oh dear
14:37<George>If you you are as V453000 played ECS in 2010 last time, that does not mean nothing has changed since then ;)
14:37<Diablo-D3>no Im in 1920.
14:38<Diablo-D3>V453000: what did you od
14:38<V453000>laugh at you
14:39<SpComb>hmm... and the calendar year dropdown apparently stops at 2009
14:40<andythenorth>V453000 new industries for 0.7.x are hardware store, recycling depot, recycling plant, hotel
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14:41<V453000>yeah, I saw, but no other cargoes than recyclables, right?
14:42<V453000>(I am drawing a special wagon for each cargo, so I need to know if there are any extra cargoes)
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you should definitely prepare a wagon that catches all cargos that are not known yet at the time of writing the grf
14:43<V453000>well, sure, I know
14:45<V453000>I just want to have many covered
14:45<andythenorth>V453000: no other new cargos. And recyclables can use scrap metal sprite, or covered wagons
14:45<V453000>andythenorth: duh. new wagon :P
14:45<Diablo-D3>you know, FIRS looks like a better setup
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14:46<andythenorth>Diablo-D3: they're just different
14:46<andythenorth>ECS != FIRS
14:46<Diablo-D3>I never said they were ==
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14:47<Diablo-D3>its just that it seems to be too difficult to serve an entire vector from start to finish
14:47<Diablo-D3>and if you dont, you cant offload cargo
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14:51<Eddi|zuHause>i think you're throwing around the phrase "too difficult" too lightly
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>just that you don't manage it after half an hour doesn't mean it's "too difficult"
14:52<Diablo-D3>dont get me wrong, I think its an interesting game mechanic
14:52<Diablo-D3>its just very unbalanced
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>then make clear improvements
14:53<Diablo-D3>not sure if its possible.
14:53<Rubidium>yeah, lets make everything balanced perfectly
14:57<Rubidium>e.g. lets let a day be roughly 800 trillion periods of radiation of caesium 133 ;)
14:58<andythenorth>Rubidium: more helpfully, could you 'balance' rivers to sometimes be two tiles wide?
14:58<andythenorth>or more
14:58<andythenorth>for amusement
14:58<@Alberth>I was more thinking to have always the same starting map so it can be optimally balanced
14:58<andythenorth>remove the random seed
14:59<andythenorth>ideally everything would also already be built
14:59<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: and no, I had a company going for several hours and just decided it wasnt fun to play it anymore
15:00<andythenorth>someone should make a better ship grf
15:00<@Alberth>Diablo-D3: it is ok to stop playing before reaching the year 5000000
15:00<andythenorth>FISH sucks
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth, Rubidium: wrt. 2-tile rivers, how about counting the number of merges: 0-1 merge: 1 tile, 2-4 merges: 2 tiles, 5-8 merges: 3 tiles, etc.
15:00<andythenorth>that's an interesting idea
15:00<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: did already think about that during development, but deemed it too tricky to implement
15:01*andythenorth was wondering how to do deltas
15:01<andythenorth>and estuaries and such
15:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: wrt the date hack .... I wonder how long it would take to be noticed if we shipped it? :P
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>you and whose commit rights?
15:04<andythenorth>someone with a sense of adventure + humour?
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15:05<@Alberth>good luck finding such a dev :D
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15:07<@Alberth>such things are a good way to ensure that was your last commit
15:08<@planetmaker>andythenorth: it would take less than 24h to be noticed
15:08<@planetmaker>I'm quite convinced of that
15:08<@peter1138>what's the largest giant screenshot anyone's ever created?
15:09<@peter1138>filesize :p
15:09<__ln__>@seen anyone
15:09<@DorpsGek>__ln__: anyone was last seen in #openttd 36 weeks, 3 days, 2 hours, 41 minutes, and 34 seconds ago: <anyone> hi
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: open-able in any program? :)
15:09<SpComb>I've done bigger than 512x512, but not for any actual game
15:11*andythenorth needs more hp-per-ton
15:11<andythenorth>my z-trains are too slow
15:12<SpComb>(as in, and actually used those giant screenshot .pngs for something)
15:14<SpComb>don't think it broke 2GB, though
15:21<MNIM>Peter: I accidentally did that once on a big map.
15:22<MNIM>I didn't have enough ram to open it afterwards.
15:22<MNIM>sadly, it got lost in a linux reinstall, but I think it was bigger than 2GB
15:26<andythenorth>why do I always have so many ships?
15:26<@planetmaker>nice to look at?
15:27<@Alberth>lots of water in the map?
15:27<@Alberth>ships are too slow?
15:27<@planetmaker>I guess if money was no issue for me, I might be on a ship right now ;-)
15:27<andythenorth>high capacity?
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15:30<MNIM>yeah, high capacity does help
15:30<MNIM>having several 800-soul ferries to relieve your rail network traffic between to big cities is nice
15:32<Hinrik>how do I know which aircraft require large airports to avoid crashes?
15:33<Hinrik>I started in 1970 and I can build a bunch of huge aircraft but only a small airport
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>Hinrik: look at the list on the wiki
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>Hinrik: or use a newgrf that tells you
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>Hinrik: larger airports are available at the dropdown list
15:34<Hinrik>Small is available, and Commuter is greyed out
15:34<Hinrik>ah yeah
15:34<Hinrik>I see what you mean
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>City is the first large one
15:36<@planetmaker>is the ttdpatch.grf anywhere in a repo or can be built from one?
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15:36<Rubidium>planetmaker: if is a repo, then yes ;(
15:37<@planetmaker>well, I expected it to be part of the ttdpatch repo. But I don't find it there.
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15:49<andythenorth>if I configure hotkeys, will they persist stably?
15:50<andythenorth>as the rest of my config doesn't ;)
15:50<@planetmaker>the config persists
15:50<@planetmaker>you just only should configure it when openttd is not running
15:50<@planetmaker>as it'll overwrite changes when you close it
15:50<andythenorth>hotkeys? Or everything?
15:51<@planetmaker>I'd not count on the hotkey file not being re-written
15:51<@planetmaker>(even when it currently probably wouldn't make sense)
15:52<@planetmaker>but when ingame config of keys will be added, it would behave the same as the openttd.cfg: rewrite upon exit with currently active settings
15:52<@planetmaker>thus: it's very persistent, both files
15:55<appe>hm, something is wrong here
15:55<appe>im going to make a long track cross a 2048 map
15:56<appe>i create a new view window in the right corner. i then move my main view to the left corner. if i use the magic bulldozer from inside the view window, i can in one click bulldoze a line trough the whole map
15:56<appe>though, it only seems to work ..from time to time.
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15:57<appe>you have any idea why?
15:57<appe>i made sure i had the magic bulldozer.
15:58<@planetmaker>terraforming limit enabled?
15:58<@Alberth>wouldn't a flat map not be much easier?
15:59<@Alberth>or a less insane length be much more fun?
15:59<@planetmaker>learnt to use ctrl+s :-)
16:00<appe>Alberth: it's a flat map.
16:01<appe>ctrl+s? :)
16:01<appe>im trying to bulldoze my way trough the cities and industries
16:01*planetmaker wonders though... the existing 12 tracks are not used. Does it really need more?
16:01*andythenorth needs more river ships now
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16:01<andythenorth>and bigger ones
16:03<@planetmaker>bah, did the author not anticipate rivers and ocean and river speed fraction?
16:03<@planetmaker>We should bash him then...
16:03<@planetmaker>with pink cotton balls
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16:28<andythenorth>bed time
16:28<andythenorth>good night
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16:38<CIA-2>OpenTTD: terkhen * r22941 /trunk/src/vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix: Calculate the size of the start/stop vehicle button correctly.
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16:48<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: you sure it's wise to add a magic number?
16:49<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: grep for SetMinimalTextLines(1, WD_FRAMERECT_TOP + WD_FRAMERECT_BOTTOM + 2)
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: all the more reason :)
16:50<@Terkhen>it should be fixed somehow, but for fixes I prefer to do a small patch that can be backported more easily
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>also it's probably code smell that the function is called so often with the same arguments
16:52<@Terkhen>yes, there is no disagreement there :)
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16:56<@planetmaker>the quick and back-portable and the lengthy and proper way ;-)
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i understood that now
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17:22<bokalHdC>I tried recently OpenTTD on the HP Touchpad, and if the person responsible for the port is in the room, I'd like to thank him/her
17:22<bokalHdC>it's awesome!
17:23<bokalHdC>I lost a few days of productivity, but it was great :)
17:23<appe>touchpad? fantastic.
17:24<appe>openttd on ipad would be nice.
17:24<bokalHdC>it is true fantastic, yes!
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>appe: that's not in our power
17:25<bokalHdC>apple doesn't like free software much
17:26<@Terkhen>what OS does that use?
17:26<bokalHdC>webos, which is... a linux flavor
17:27<bokalHdC>most of the OS is free software
17:27<bokalHdC>linux, pulseaudio, gstreamer, ipkg, and much more
17:27<bokalHdC>only the UI part is closed source
17:28<bokalHdC>the only thing not working with the port yet, is the network.
17:28<bokalHdC>it means no multiplayer, of course
17:28<bokalHdC>but also no AI
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>bokalHdC: if you actually encounter the person doing the port, please ask him to report back so we can include his changes into the main repository
17:29<bokalHdC>because I can't download them
17:29<bokalHdC>oh, ok... you were not aware of it?
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>you can add AIs manually, but it's kinda cumbersome
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>get the files from
17:30<bokalHdC>Eddi|zuHause, thanks!
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>bokalHdC: we heard of the port, but no details wrt what actually changed
17:32<bokalHdC>any AI that you recommend?
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17:37<bokalHdC>the developper is omoco
17:38<@Terkhen>good night
17:38<bokalHdC>good night
17:40<Hinrik>is there no way to merge two non-AI companies in multiplayer?
17:40<Hinrik>e.g. if we decide we want to do co-op
17:47<bokalHdC>Eddi|zuHause, I just wrote the author of the port asking to report back.
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>why does "official secrets act" sound like an oxymoron?
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18:37<bokalHdC>good night
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19:54<Eddi|zuHause>"Fukushima is proof that nuclear engergy is secure"
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21:13<Hinrik>the caption for that image talks about an "upper" and a "lower" station, but the two stations are level
21:13<Hinrik>there's just left and right
21:13<Hinrik>which one is using path signals?
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21:16<Eddi|zuHause>better exchange "upper" for "left"
21:18<Hinrik>will do
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 18 00:00:08 2011