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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-18

---Logopened Sun Sep 18 00:00:08 2011
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02:46<Elukka>pixels, pixels everywhere
02:47<andythenorth>you're really drawing that many angles :O
02:47<andythenorth>this isn't rendered?
02:47<Elukka>it isn't
02:47<Elukka>i considered it but it seemed like it'd be more work for such low res sprites
02:51<Elukka>don't planepeople have even more angles to do?
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02:59*andythenorth needs more boats
03:01<Elukka>mmmm, fish
03:02<Elukka>so you've done about fifty million sprites
03:02<andythenorth>bigger boats look silly in canals + rivers
03:02<Elukka>how fast do you pump them out?
03:02<andythenorth>Elukka: slowly
03:02<andythenorth>and painfully
03:02<Elukka>sounds familiar
03:02<andythenorth>my advice: drop the vehicles, do a building set :/
03:02<Elukka>i wanted to try to make one car per day but couldn't
03:02<andythenorth>buildings have one angle
03:03<Elukka>okay so lessee
03:03<Elukka>i started drawing sprites... a bit less than 2 weeks ago
03:03<Elukka>and i have a grand total of 2 decent ones
03:03<andythenorth>they look fine btw
03:05<Elukka>i've mucked about drawing things but never really done pixel art before
03:09<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:37<andythenorth>airports: annoyink
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03:47*andythenorth needs more docks
03:47<andythenorth>smaller catchment areas
03:47<andythenorth>for delivering supplies to farms
03:48<Elukka>andy, do you also have the thing with firs and yacd where if you, say, add a train to a route it'll be all messed up for something like a year, or even forever unless you make them skip an order?
03:49<Elukka>like, i have a train going between two industries, add another, and now the old train refuses to load anything
03:49<LordAro>andythenorth: do it yourself :P
03:49<andythenorth>Elukka: that's a known issue with yacd I think
03:49<Elukka>how do you deal with it?
03:49<andythenorth>sometimes you have to make the train run the route end-to-end
03:49<andythenorth>so skip basically
03:50<Elukka>the palette doesn't have a dark enough green
03:50<Elukka>now i have to make everything a step brighter
03:51<Elukka>which looks too bright...
03:52<@planetmaker>use a brown instead of a dark green
03:52<andythenorth>Elukka: if you want to achieve TTD style, there are two tricks you need to combine
03:52<andythenorth>1. the contrast is high
03:52<andythenorth>2. but where two high-contrast areas meet, you need to anti-alias
03:53<@planetmaker>3. Look how Irwe or andythenorth draw their sprites
03:54<Elukka>doesn't look right to replace it with a brown
03:55<@planetmaker>Might happen. An olive?
03:55<andythenorth>sometimes you need to use a colour that initial logic tells you is 'wrong'
03:56<Elukka>better, but still obvious it's not the right color
03:56<andythenorth>tbh, it's much easier if you use company colour :P
03:56<Elukka>i could just color the dark side the same as the side view
03:56<Elukka>think anyone will notice? :P
03:56<andythenorth>probably not
03:57<Elukka>best compromise i can think of
03:57<andythenorth>which direction are you lighting from?
03:57<Elukka>upper right
03:57<andythenorth>I'll save you time now
03:57<andythenorth>there are incorrect tutorials
03:57<Elukka>everything is from the upper right!
03:57<andythenorth>lighting varies in original sprites, but average is about 5.30 on the clock face
03:57<@planetmaker>andy's light-direction quest? :-)
03:57<andythenorth>"saving people pain"
03:57<@planetmaker>(he's right, though)
03:58<andythenorth>if light was in the upper right, all angles would always be in shadow to the player
03:58<andythenorth>that would suck
03:58<Elukka>hmm yeah that's actually how i draw
03:58<Elukka>i mean
03:58<Elukka>i dunno why i said upper right
03:58<andythenorth>he :)
03:59<andythenorth>most of the palette has hues with light/dark ranges of about 8
03:59<andythenorth>I'd pick near the middle for the _ view
04:00<andythenorth>then go either side for \ / views
04:00<Elukka>what i've been doing is- yeah exactly that
04:00<andythenorth>in which case, I have no further advice :P
04:00<Elukka>base color for the side view, one step lighter or darker for the diagonals
04:01<andythenorth>it's worth getting the roof right, the roofs are prominent
04:01<andythenorth>and when you have one, you can copy and paste it a lot
04:02<Elukka>the roof's basically the same color in all directions, just the shading goes on the different edge on the other diagonal?
04:02<Elukka>i butchered that sentence
04:02<Elukka>i'm a fan of the almost flat prussian coach roofs, incidentally
04:07*andythenorth bbl
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04:40<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: do you know if those white fogged out windows are toilets, and if so should they only be on one side?
04:40<Elukka>as in
04:40<MercedesBenz>Ðóññêèå åñòü?
04:42<MercedesBenz>help me
04:43<Elukka>erm, okay
04:43<Elukka>how should we help you?
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04:43<MercedesBenz>I need a Russian version
04:44<Elukka>i do think one exists, but i don't know much more about it
04:44<Rubidium>Russian version of what?
04:44<Diablo-D3>didnt there use to be some sort of grey mining pit industry?
04:44<MercedesBenz> Russian version openttd 1.1.3
04:45<Rubidium>MercedesBenz: just select the Russian translation in game
04:45<Rubidium>in the game options
04:45<Elukka>diablo, in the default industries?
04:45<Diablo-D3>Elukka: no
04:45<Diablo-D3>it was an addon, but I dont know who has it
04:45<Diablo-D3>I havent checked firs yes
04:45<Diablo-D3>also, why doesnt firs have a list of industries it has somewhere?
04:46<Diablo-D3>like the big flowchart ecs has
04:46<Elukka>because that's now in game :P
04:46<MercedesBenz>error Open sfx
04:46<Elukka>click the... was it industry chain button on any industry
04:46<Diablo-D3>Elukka: yeah but like the flow chart ecs has pictures of industries and everything
04:47<Diablo-D3>Elukka: wow
04:47<Diablo-D3>that page was exactly what I wanted I think
04:48<MercedesBenz>not start a game. error Open sfx
04:49<Diablo-D3>MercedesBenz: you have to install opensfx first.
04:49<Diablo-D3>Elukka: firs doesnt have it
04:49<MercedesBenz>where to get?
04:49<Rubidium>sounds like you copied an installation to another computer, but didn't completely copy it
04:49<Diablo-D3>Elukka: its all gray, and is built into the side of a hill
04:50<Elukka>ah, pikka bird's brick chain i believe
04:52<Diablo-D3>why does no one else use it?
04:53<Elukka>wellll, i moved to firs
04:53<Diablo-D3>its a really unique graphic, it should be retained
04:54<Elukka>i like how it's built to a hill but i'm not sure the sprite fits the game that well
04:54<MercedesBenz>how to install opensfx?
04:54<Diablo-D3>MercedesBenz: read the website
04:54<@Yexo>MercedesBenz: are you using windows?
04:54<MercedesBenz>windows xp
04:54<@Yexo>in that case: download the installer from and just tick the box to install opensfx
04:55<Diablo-D3>Elukka: even if the sprite doesnt perfectly fit (lets face it, grfed up ottd is a mismatched set at best), no other industry looks like this
04:55<Diablo-D3>and industries should strive to be bigger
04:56<Elukka>firs' seem good to me
04:56<Elukka>in size
04:57<Diablo-D3>I dunno, ottd industry size sorta feeds into the whole massive scale mismatch
04:58<Elukka>how so?
04:58<Diablo-D3>I dunno, I just want really gigantic trains to be usable and look correct in some semblance of a default ottd setup
04:59<Diablo-D3>its not about realism, its just having gigantic trains is fun.
05:01<@peter1138>that graphic fits very well if you ask me
05:01<Diablo-D3>yeah but like, put a 28 tile train anywhere near an industry
05:01<Diablo-D3>it completely dwarfs the industry
05:01<Elukka>i think there's something about the style of the rock
05:02<MercedesBenz>I downloaded:,, How do I install them?
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05:02<Elukka>it looks like it'd be more at home with 32bpp graphics (which is actually somewhat of an achievement to manage using 8bpp)
05:02<Diablo-D3>Elukka: still, I'd like to see it in firs just due to its uniqueness
05:02<Diablo-D3>too many industries look like buildings
05:05<MercedesBenz>Yexo, I downloaded:,, How do I install them?
05:05<@Yexo>search for "openttd.cfg", that is the configuration file
05:06<@Yexo>(most likely it's in "My Documents\OpenTTD"
05:07<@Yexo>in that directory should also be a data\ directory, extract opengfx and opensfx there. Extract openmsc in the gm\ directory
05:14<MercedesBenz>Yexo, Thank you! works
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05:24<MercedesBenz>saved game to version 1.0.0 can be opened in version 1.1.3?
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05:26*Diablo-D3 tries 2cc, av8, egrvts, firs, fish, heqs, industrial stations renewal, long vehicles, nutracks, smooth snow transition, snow aware arctic buildings, snow line mod, total town replacement, total bridge renewal set, and bigger train depot
05:28<@peter1138>just add everything
05:34<MercedesBenz>does not appear in the saved version 1.0.1 version 1.1.3
05:34<MercedesBenz>can not open in the saved version 1.0.1 version 1.1.3
05:36<MercedesBenz>help me
05:36<@Terkhen>MercedesBenz: no
05:36<@Terkhen>a savegame can be only opened by an equal or newer major version
05:37<@Terkhen>you can open 1.0.x savegames with 1.0.x and 1.1.x, but not the other way around
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05:38<@Yexo>MercedesBenz: if you downloaded openttd from another side than your "version 1.0.1" was maybe not the officail 1.0.1 but a modified version
05:38<@Yexo>in that case you won't be able to open your savegames with any other than the original version
05:39<Diablo-D3>Elukka: "- Add basic tiles for FIRS Clay Pit and Quarry (unfinished, not happy with graphics)"
05:39<Diablo-D3>Elukka: from CHIPS changelog
05:39<MercedesBenz>What to do?
05:39<Diablo-D3>Elukka: is FIRS adding it?
05:39<Elukka>i don't think so?
05:39<@Yexo>MercedesBenz: start a new game in 1.1.3 or find the original version you used and keep playing with that
05:40<Elukka>that just means CHIPS added station tiles corresponding to FIRS quarry graphics
05:40<Diablo-D3>yeah, but firs clay pit?
05:40<Diablo-D3>when did it get a clay pit?
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05:41<@Alberth>ages ago afaik
05:41<Diablo-D3>it looks like the sand pit
05:41<Diablo-D3>all lies :<
05:41<@Terkhen>check the changelog
05:42<@Alberth>a sand mine does look a lot like a clay mine as well :p
05:43<Diablo-D3>yeah, but I want that graphic from pikka bricks
05:43<Diablo-D3>its not fair
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05:45<@Alberth>so make your own industry set
05:45<Diablo-D3>argh no
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05:48*Alberth is very much not impressed
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05:50<Diablo-D3>although I wonder how hard it is to add more industries to firs through another grf
05:50<Diablo-D3>its probably a bad idea
05:52<MercedesBenz>this error: NOT_REACHED triggered at line 1453 of .. \ src \ strings.cpp
05:52<@Alberth>Diablo-D3: you run out of cargo types
05:53<Elukka>diablo, i feel that your desire for huge industries and a huge amount of industry types would result in a game where half of all terrain is industries :P
05:53<@Alberth>it already is, try dense industries :p
05:54<Diablo-D3>Elukka: Yes.
05:54<Diablo-D3>I see no problem with this.
05:54<@Yexo>MercedesBenz: when did that happen?
05:55<MercedesBenz>Yexo, when load saved to another version
05:56<MercedesBenz>there is a file: Crash
05:57<@Yexo>please open a bug report at and upload crash.cmp, crash.sav, crash.log there. Don't forget to also include your original savegame
05:57<@Alberth>Looks like a missing case in GetSpecialNameString, although the line number is not correct w.r.t current trunk
05:58<@Yexo>Alberth: that's indeed the line
05:58<@Yexo>line number is correct for 1.1.3
06:00<Diablo-D3>Elukka: well, its either that, or we can use REALLY TINY TRAINS
06:00<Diablo-D3>use like ultra tiny cars that are really bunches of cars
06:00<Diablo-D3>so you buy 3 or 5 or whatever at a time
06:02<Diablo-D3>actually you know
06:02<Diablo-D3>thats not that bad of an idea
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06:12<Eddi|zuHause><Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: do you know if those white fogged out windows are toilets, and if so should they only be on one side? <-- i believe compartment coaches had toilets on both sides (one for each adjacent compartment)
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06:16<erik1984>Hi openttd people. Is anyone of you also playing ottd on Ubuntu 11.04?
06:18<@Alberth>I am not, but why is that special?
06:18<@Alberth>ie just ask what you want to know
06:18<LordAro>erik1984: i am
06:18<@Alberth>hi LordAro!
06:18<LordAro>hi Alberth
06:19<@Alberth>LordAro: using a somewhat saner development platform now?
06:20<Diablo-D3>erik1984: no, Im on deb sid
06:20<LordAro>i always use ubuntu for developing, just that i usually have to communicate through windows
06:20<LordAro>but not atm :)
06:21<@Alberth>I thought you used mingW stuff, but luckily you don't
06:21<Rubidium>Alberth: pff... you needs lots of power for development, so what is better than Debian on a s390 mainframe for development?
06:21<@Alberth>Rubidium: not much, but my basement is not so big :)
06:22<@Alberth>idea for our new compile farm?
06:22<Diablo-D3>Yexo, Elukka: I just had a funny idea
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: here's a view of a similar wagon from the other side:
06:22<LordAro>Alberth: if i am stuck on windoze, i do (if i have to) use mingw - but for aroai stuff, not the more complex ottd stuff
06:22<Diablo-D3>Yexo, Elukka: you build stations, and they automatically expand new non-track tiles as the station grows
06:24<@Alberth>LordAro: ah, you're an expert at noth systems thus :p
06:24<Elukka>damn, i have too much brown on the 2nd/3rd class variant
06:24<Elukka>or did that vary too :P
06:25<Diablo-D3>Yexo, Elukka: so like you have a pax rail station, and then it starts building those fake parking lot tiles and stuff
06:25<LordAro>Alberth: pfft...
06:26<Elukka>seems to me like it'd be difficult to code a system where it builds those in a pattern that looks good in every situation
06:26<@Alberth>Diablo-D3: it's normally not useful to spam other people with your ideas, they will not jump on it and implement it for you
06:27<Diablo-D3>Elukka: maybe, but it'd be interesting to have automatic crawl
06:27<Diablo-D3>Elukka: it'd be easier if we had >1x1 train tiles
06:27<Diablo-D3>so you could plop down a large building that is part of the station
06:28<Diablo-D3>Elukka: like, in the pax idea, a parking garage.
06:29<@Alberth>when at first it does not work, add another layer of complexity :)
06:30<Diablo-D3>its not really that complex
06:30<Diablo-D3>the game already has multitile buildings
06:30<@Alberth>so prove it
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06:30<@Alberth>general ideas and visions are trivial. Making it really work is the challenge
06:32<Diablo-D3>Alberth: I'll tell you what I tell every other project that tries to recruit me
06:32<Diablo-D3>I cant be everywhere at once.
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06:32<Diablo-D3>and honestly openttd is too political to delve into
06:34<LordAro>Alberth: i believe the readme patch is 'ready', should i make a flyspray entry for it?
06:35<erik1984>LordAro: You are using the Unity inteface? I'm asking because the window behaviour of openttd is a bit strange. if it runs in a small (not maximised) Window everything is fine. But when maximizing there is a second window title bar while it should integrate with the top panel like other applications.
06:35<@Alberth>Diablo-D3: I am not trying to recruit you, but talking "oh this is nice, and it is easy to implement" is just bullshit. So either prove it is easy, or stop dumping random ideas
06:36<@Alberth>LordAro: sounds like a good plan to me
06:37<Rubidium>erik1984: if OpenTTD misbehaves with its title bar, then it's rather SDL that is misbehaving
06:38<LordAro>erik1984: afraid not, my computer isn't powerful enough :)
06:38<LordAro>Alberth: great! doing so now
06:39<LordAro>actually, there is still the TrimWhitespace() function that needs dealing with - it actually only checks the beginning and end of the char, not each individual line
06:40<@Alberth>I still believe it is not needed :) Me or another dev will look into it
06:40<Elukka>doesn't openttd's license allow one to make their own branch and disregard the 'politics' and visions of current devs
06:41<erik1984>Rubudium: I'll check if it's a common SDL issue, thanks.
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06:42<@Alberth>Elukka: sure it does. Also, I don't understand what politics we are doing other than having a vision about the project, just like any project
06:43<Elukka>yeah, so diablo, you're free to code whatever
06:43<Rubidium>most people with a "huge" vision claim to do lots of stuff, but eventually nothing happens
06:43<@Alberth>and you are free to use the forums, and a copy of our sources for it. Several people do that, look in the development forum
06:44<Rubidium>otherwise there would've been at least a C# and Java implementation of OpenTTD for years
06:44<@Alberth>and several 3D version of openttd :)
06:44<Rubidium>and 32 bits graphics
06:44<@Alberth>and multi-core
06:45<Rubidium>a better (ship) pathfinder
06:45<Rubidium>better landscapes
06:46<@Alberth>oh, the large document by Sir Xavius :)
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>you mean OpenTTD 500+?
06:51<@Alberth>I don't remember the name, but could be
06:51<@Alberth>would be nice as a climate
06:55<@Yexo>erik1984: I can confirm your problem with the menu bar, but I haven't yet looked into what could be causing it nor do I know if there is a solution
06:58<Eddi|zuHause> <-- openttd should look like this :p
06:59<V453000>cute train :)
06:59<@peter1138>second window title bar? that sounds like absolutely nothing that ottd can control
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06:59<LordAro>Alberth: flyspray task is up
07:00<@Alberth>ok, thanks
07:01<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: looks like openlomo :p
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: as far as i understand it, those are models for some flight simulator
07:02<@Alberth>trains also fly :)
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: only if you misuse the term "in die Luft fliegen" :)
07:02<@Alberth>quite detailed for a flight simulator though
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: a mail wagon would be useful as well:
07:07<Elukka>hm. that looks just like the passenger one except it has less windows
07:08<Elukka>and the roof ridge is higher but i'm not sure how visible that'd be
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07:09<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: model railways? nice pictures
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07:11<Elukka>did the other variants
07:11<Elukka>always liked the brown/green color scheme
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07:13<Eddi|zuHause>the white toilet windows should only be 1 pixel, also they should be in the middle of the brown section
07:14<Elukka>guess i could change that
07:15<Elukka>will end up with 1 px wide normal windows though
07:15<Elukka>along with the 2 px ones
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>if you can manage this: 1px window, 1px door, 1px window, 1px green
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07:16<Eddi|zuHause>(=4px for one compartment)
07:18<Elukka>i think the 2x2 px windows stand for both the door window and the two small side ones
07:18<Elukka>with 1 px windows there's either way too many compartments or the windows are too sparse
07:21<Elukka>hm. i think 1 px toilets do look better, it's not really that noticeable that there's a 1 px normal window next to it
07:26<@peter1138>why so much excess blue?
07:27<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: since technically on the diagonals the toilets would now be half a pixel, do you think it'd be a good idea to sort of blend them in and make them a lighter blue instead of white?
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: possibly, but relatively bright
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but the 3rd class toilets should still be in the middle of the brown section
07:39<Eddi|zuHause>the blending works well
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07:45<Elukka>hmm yeah gonna move them around
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07:49<Eddi|zuHause>hm... university seems to have some computer troubles...
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08:00<appe>bah, clicking links in this channel..
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08:11<andythenorth>buenos dios
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08:14<Elukka>mm, food.
08:16<andythenorth>with a truck set, is it necessary to have a progression of ever more powerful, faster truck *models* ?
08:17<andythenorth>for fun gameplay?
08:18<Elukka>you mean do they have to get better with time?
08:19<Rubidium>andythenorth: slower but more reliable might make sense, wouldn't it?
08:19<andythenorth>mostly trucks are mostly the same
08:19<andythenorth>just faster
08:19<andythenorth>even capacities haven't changed that much - except by law
08:20<andythenorth>by 'faster' I mean 'more able to maintain legal maximum speed due to more hp'
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08:36<MNIM>I would argue they'd be maximizing the hauling ability : running costs ratio
08:37<MNIM>EG - same capacity at the limit, same speed and comparable HP but lower running costs.
08:37<appe>isnt there a running costs ratio?
08:38<Elukka>unfortunately in OTTD that's less vital
08:38<Elukka>real companies never reach the point where they have essentially infinite cash and a company can crash no matter how large it is
08:38<appe>actually, i have a rather silly complaint
08:38<appe>it does feel trucks and busses doesnt really get any attention
08:39<appe>poor things
08:40<Elukka>yeah! :(
08:40<Elukka>well, with YACD or cargodist busses are vital
08:41<Elukka>and 2cc or another high running costs train set provides a niche for LV4 trucks since they're rather good
08:41<Elukka>though i do wish there was an alternative set with similar capabilities
08:41<Elukka>nothing wrong with LV4 but variety is always good
08:41<Elukka>andythenorth: are you making a road vehicle set besides HEQS? :P
08:42<andythenorth>Elukka: no but maybe
08:42<Elukka>you should!
08:42<andythenorth>I want a good plan before I start
08:42<andythenorth>currently I don't have the plan
08:43<Elukka>i suggest running cost parameters
08:43<Elukka>actually i suggest those for HEQS too
08:43<Elukka>or does it have one already?
08:43<andythenorth>HEQS has them
08:44<andythenorth>they're not a great idea
08:44<andythenorth>but they're the best we can do currently :(
08:44<Elukka>road vehicle balance is so dependent on the balancing of whatever train set you happen to be using
08:44<andythenorth>Terkhen: how far did you get with rv-wagons? Did you find the scope of the work to be done?
08:49<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: i think the windows in your modification look triangular, as if narrowing upwards
08:49<Elukka>at game scales
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>possibly, i'm not that big of an artist
08:56<Elukka>the general texturing i tried to make consistent with the grey coach (based on oberhümer's modification), since the details are basically similar
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08:57*andythenorth ponders patching docks for smaller catchments
08:57*peter1138 ponders patching docks for multistop
08:58*Eddi|zuHause ponders not patching anything
08:58<andythenorth>I thought we didn't discuss that anymore :o
08:58<andythenorth>you patch it, I'll test
08:58<andythenorth>goes for Eddi|zuHause too
08:58<Elukka>gonna change the toilets on all the variants anyway
08:58<andythenorth>if you don't patch, I won't test
08:59<andythenorth>I have three adjacent farms, I need to deliver supplies by ship
08:59<andythenorth>any dock on this peninsula will cover all of them :/
08:59<andythenorth>this is no good
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's always delivered to the one closest to the station sign
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>so it doesn't matter if they overlap
09:00<andythenorth>okey dokey
09:04<Elukka>due to all the variants this file now has 12 layers :P
09:06<MNIM>holy... apparently these bad boys do 130kmh D:
09:07*MNIM demands this be made in ottd nao. >>
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: it's not really a problem of getting things up to that speed. usually laws prevent you from going that fast, because in "normal" traffic you can't brake fast enough
09:08<Elukka>unrelated interesting locomotive
09:09<MNIM>braking ain't the problem. enough wheels on the tarmac
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>in case you have missed the physics lesson on friction: the amound of wheels is irrelevant for braking
09:10<MNIM>Im not talking about friction.
09:11<MNIM>Im talking about the fact that /each/ and /every/ wheel has brakes
09:11<MNIM>and those brakes together absorb just as much energy per ton as an ordinary truck
09:11<MNIM>it's the part where you have only one engine that is the kicker
09:11<@Alberth>and we say we don't waste energy and care for the environment :p
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: so then, please explain to me why an ICE3 train takes 4km to brake, even though it has so many wheels?
09:13<MNIM>because it's not moving a hundred, it's mocing 200+
09:13<@peter1138>also metal-on-metal
09:13<MNIM>and steel wheels on steel tracks provide less friction than rubber on asphalt, thus the brakes can absorb less
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: even at 100km/h, an ICE3 train doesn't take <100m to brake
09:14<MNIM>as peter and I said, steel on steel
09:14<Elukka>metal on metal!
09:14<MNIM>also, less wheels per ton
09:14<Markk>Magnetic rail brakes can be used as well.
09:15<MNIM>steel meets steel!
09:15<Hinrik>it's a shame that almost every openttd video on youtube uses pop music instead of the awesome game music
09:16<andythenorth>is braking effort effectively the inverse of tractive effort?
09:16<Elukka>i like my link better :P
09:16<andythenorth>inverse isn't the word I want :P
09:16<@peter1138>is braking effort still related to engine power in ottd? :s
09:18<andythenorth>braking is a factor of adhesion?
09:18<andythenorth>and adhesion is a factor of weight and coeffecient of friction?
09:21<@peter1138>you want a new newgrf property?
09:22<Elukka>it'd be cool if trains had to brake before a station or stop rather than pretty much stopping instantly
09:23<Pinkbeast>Errr trains do brake slowly at stations
09:23<andythenorth>I don't want a new newgrf property
09:24<andythenorth>I want a physics lesson :)
09:24<andythenorth>I want multistop docks
09:24<andythenorth>and a pony
09:24<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> is braking effort effectively the inverse of tractive effort? <-- difference is that even unpowered wagons may be braked
09:25<andythenorth>also. multi-stop docks will really break my play style
09:25<andythenorth>which will be interesting
09:25<Pinkbeast>Braking might or might not be limited by adhesion - it is on trains, not (for example) on bicycles on tarmac
09:26<Pinkbeast>Sure - you'll lift the back wheel on a bike before the front wheel skids, if you've got a normal tyre.
09:26<Pinkbeast>So braking's limited by that.
09:26<Eddi|zuHause> <- this is cool :p
09:26<andythenorth>isn't that adhesion?
09:26<Pinkbeast>No. There _is_ an adhesion limit, the point at which the front tyre would skid - but you can't get there.
09:27<Elukka>that truck doesn't look very inconspicuous :P
09:27<@peter1138>you tend to end up sideways before that
09:29<Pinkbeast>andy> I would describe that limit as being based on geometry, inasmuch as the limit is a function of the angle described by the triangle made up of a line between the CoG and the front contact patch, and a line made up of the ground.
09:29<Pinkbeast>This is what made penny-farthings dangerous - that angle's large, because the CoG is practically above the contact patch, and so you can't brake much at all without taking a "header".
09:30<andythenorth>the question is one of which direction your moment is going
09:30<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: lol, 'top secret' :D
09:30<andythenorth>so you basically have a moment about the front wheel
09:30<Pinkbeast>But it's not adhesion-based - a "stickier" front tyre would not alter this limit at all
09:30<@peter1138>i got to svn update
09:30<@peter1138>now i can't be bothered :S
09:31<andythenorth>Pinkbeast: yes and no
09:31<@Alberth>peter1138: write a script :)
09:31<@peter1138>to code for me?
09:31<Pinkbeast>How, no?
09:31<@Alberth>to svn update for you :)
09:31<andythenorth>depends whether you want to consider the rear wheel
09:31<@peter1138>don't need help with that. i'm not bjarni :)
09:31<andythenorth>during braking you lose adhesion on the rear wheel due to weight transfer
09:32<Pinkbeast>You don't have to consider the rear wheel at all because in a maximum effort emergency stop it's totally unloaded and the rear brake is useless.
09:32<andythenorth>not on my bike
09:32<Pinkbeast>Yes, on your bike - because in an emergency stop you are _at_ that point where the rear wheel is about to lift.
09:33<andythenorth>mine goes sideways in that situation
09:33<Pinkbeast>That's because you use the rear brake, I guess?
09:33<@Terkhen>andythenorth: not very far
09:33<andythenorth>there's usually about 10kgs unevenly loaded in one rear pannier, low down
09:33<@Terkhen>I have some further unifications to test
09:33<Pinkbeast>Then the limiting factor is rider braking skill, not adhesion.
09:33<@Terkhen>but that's not "real" work towards rv-wagons
09:34<@Alberth>Pinkbeast: only if adhesion is strong enough imo. Consider a very slippery front-wheel, then I'd brake with my rear wheel
09:34<andythenorth>Pinkbeast: the weight over the rear wheel prevents a lot of the lift, but the rear wheel still breks loose
09:34<andythenorth>breks / breaks
09:34<Pinkbeast>10kg is not so much; it's 10% of the bike-rider system.
09:34<andythenorth>and the weight being on one side causes an offset, so I end up going sideways
09:34<Pinkbeast>Alberth> Yes - adhesion can lower until it's the limit, but on a normal bike on normal road it isn't.
09:35<andythenorth>I've crashed my bike, I know how it plays out :P
09:35<@Alberth>Pinkbeast: my normal bike doesn't have front brakes :p
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>any sane person brakes his bike on the rear wheel
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>unless you want to meet the pavement
09:35<Pinkbeast>Eddi> No, because in an emergency you can only get maximum braking with the front brake, didn't we just go through all this?
09:36<Hinrik>where does openttd download the newgrf content from?
09:36<MNIM>In general you want brakes on both wheels
09:37<andythenorth>in general, you crash
09:37<andythenorth>is my experience
09:37<MNIM>because, if properly used, each amplifies the braking effect of the other
09:37<Pinkbeast>MNIM> What exactly does the rear brake do at the point you are braking so hard the rear wheel is unloaded?
09:37<andythenorth>at the point where you need the full breaking power of rubber on dry tarmac, you're going to crash
09:38<Hinrik>MNIM has got his physics wrong
09:38<MNIM>pink: that's exactly what I mean when I say /when properly used/
09:38<MNIM>EG - without lifting your rear wheel
09:39<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: from testing your patch, playing a game at 0.5x normal year progression *is* better
09:39<andythenorth>I avoid the word 'daylength' :P
09:39<Pinkbeast>MNIM> The load on the rear wheel decreases directly with deceleration. So if the rear wheel still has load on it, you're not decelerating as hard as possible.
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>i typically use daylength 4 or 8
09:39<Hinrik>if you're in a position where you can safely use the front brake, there's no point in using less and adding a little rear braking to compensate
09:39<Pinkbeast>So, no, this is not "properly used" in an emergency.
09:40<@peter1138>generally my brakes aren't good enough to lift the rear wheel
09:40<MNIM>pinkbeast: now that's where people are wrong
09:40<@peter1138>but... i'm kinda heavy and i have stuff in panniers
09:40<@Alberth>MNIM: unfortunately lifting back wheels happens all by itself if you break on wheels before it
09:40<MNIM>it's not wise to max out on braking
09:40<Pinkbeast>peter> Well, there's another non-adhesion based braking limit.
09:41<Pinkbeast>MNIM> Wisdom isn't the issue, fortunately - the question is, is the limit on braking based on adhesion, and wise or not, at the limit the rear wheel isn't in play.
09:41<andythenorth>Pinkbeast is right, assuming by 'emergency' he means 'lock the wheel', and on dry tarmac
09:41<andythenorth>rubber has a very high c/f on dry tarmac
09:42<andythenorth>so you basically get either a pivot about the front wheel of the whole bike, or the bike stays down and you go over the bars
09:42<Pinkbeast>By "emergency" I mean "I want to stop as fast as possible without having a prang"
09:42<@Alberth>why doesn't that work with the rearbrake equally well then, if you don't brake on the front?
09:42<MNIM>generally, to achieve maximum braking power on a straight line on the dry black, you'll use your front wheel with a slight bit of control breaking on the back, and, most importantly, with your ass over your rear wheels
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>at the point where you lock the wheel on the tarmac, you have no choice other than falling over...
09:43<MNIM>rear wheel, singular, that is
09:43<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: hopefully after coming to a stop :)
09:43<Hinrik>Alberth: the rear brake only has half the stopping power of the front brake
09:43<MNIM>and, to avoid faceplanting the asphalt, here's the kicker:
09:44<Hinrik>Alberth: until the wheel starts skidding
09:44<andythenorth>why are we discussing this? :P there are no bikes in ttd :P
09:44<Hinrik>not yet!
09:44<MNIM>only experience can teach you to apply the correct dosage to both wheels separately while shifting your CG backwards
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09:45<Pinkbeast>andy> Well, there are pretty few vehicles whose braking isn't limited by adhesion at all and bikes sprang to mind... oh, and he's gone
09:46<Pinkbeast>Anyway, I must cycle to the pub, hopefully without doing any practical testing of the discussion
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>the only place where adhesion doesn't have an influence on braking is a sail ship
09:47<MNIM>you're forgetting any other vehicle without contact to a solid surface :P
09:48<Elukka>eddi: first draft of mail coach
09:50<Diablo-D3>hey guys
09:50<Diablo-D3>in industrial stations renewal
09:50<Diablo-D3>what are the road vehicle fixtures for?
09:55<Diablo-D3>V453000: no I mean
09:56<Diablo-D3>what triggers them to do something
09:56<Diablo-D3>obviously my own vehicles cant drive on them
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>they don't do anything, they're eyecandy
09:56<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: yeah I get that, but what cargo do they trip on?
09:56<Diablo-D3>like the truck parking one has trucks parked in it, but when I place it its blank
09:57<Diablo-D3>well not blank blank, its just an empty parking lot
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>dunno, never used it
09:57<MNIM>first you'll need to have cargos loaded/unloaded at the station
09:57<MNIM>Ive seen 'em work on ECS cargoes, at least
09:58<Diablo-D3>ahh its a pax station
09:58<MNIM>if you want something animated at a pax station, you'll want the canadian stations set!
09:58<MNIM>if only for the parking spots
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>industrial stations reacting on passengers would be slightly silly
09:59<Diablo-D3>theres a cars parking lot too
09:59<MNIM>they are full of cars depending on the number of passengers there are
09:59<Diablo-D3>which looks like it should be paxable
09:59<MNIM>the carpark in industrial replacement stations isn't for pax: it's for the vehicles factory
10:00<Diablo-D3>so is the canadian stations set the pax equiv to industrial stations?
10:00<MNIM>you'll want to have some industry set like FIRS/ECS that has something lice a vehicle factory to see that
10:00<Diablo-D3>is there a counterpart at all?
10:00<MNIM>nah, not like that
10:01*Diablo-D3 has a sad :<
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>there are several passenger station sets
10:01<MNIM>north american
10:01<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: yeah but none of them seem to really have much interesting stuff
10:01<Diablo-D3>its all just new station art
10:01<MNIM>dutch stations, though personally I don't like that one (even though Im dutch)
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>czech stations
10:02<MNIM>well, at least the canadian stations set has a pretty carpark
10:03<MNIM>also, most stationsets have separate station buildings which look pretty
10:03-!-MercedesBenz [~IRChelper@] has joined #openttd
10:04<MNIM>look at this, for example.
10:05<MercedesBenz>how to set in full screen mode, different screen resolution?
10:05<Diablo-D3>MercedesBenz: settings.
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>game settings window
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10:05<Diablo-D3>MNIM: hrm, total town renewal at least
10:05<MNIM>that's japanese stationset platforms, canadian set station building and car parks
10:05<MNIM>and yes, that's also TTRS
10:06<MNIM>it's a less successful version of my current alpine map, actually (this version kept crashing)
10:06<MercedesBenz>I need to 1024x768, not in the list of such
10:07<Diablo-D3>Ill have to throw the canadian station set in to my list next time
10:07<Diablo-D3>MercedesBenz: yes it is, Im looking right at it
10:08<Diablo-D3>MNIM: Im currently using 2cc, av8, chips, egrvts, firs, fish, heqs, isr, lv4, ntracks, three snow mods, ttrs, and tbrs
10:08<Diablo-D3>and hover bus
10:09<MNIM>Id say skip the snow mods and use opengfx+ terrain instead next time
10:09<MNIM>unless you want to use grassyknolls (opengfx+ terrain overrides grassyknolls, apparently)
10:09<Diablo-D3>well Im using smooth snow transition, snow aware artic buldings, and snow line mod
10:10<MNIM>the rest is pretty much the same as Im using
10:10<Diablo-D3>so unless opengfx+ terrain makes the snow line go up and down as the season changes, or fades snow to grass, not seeing the point
10:10<@Alberth>MercedesBenz: afaik that list is pulled from the operating system, so if your hardware does not support it, it is not shown
10:11<@Alberth>or perhaps you can change the screen setting in your OS ?
10:11<MNIM>Diablo-D3: that's what it does
10:12<Diablo-D3>MNIM: it does both?
10:12<Diablo-D3>well thats two mods I can cross off
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10:13<Diablo-D3>MNIM: so whats on your list thats not on mine or vice versa?
10:13<Diablo-D3>besides the stations
10:13<Diablo-D3>like any interesting train grfs?
10:13<MNIM>only use 2CC, actually
10:13<MNIM>anyway, lemme open my most recent game and pull that list
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10:14<MercedesBens>I do not understand
10:15<@Alberth>OpenTTD can only use resolutions that your hardware knows
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10:16<@Alberth>(and your video driver, of course)
10:17<MNIM>wait a sec, Im editing my screenshot and uploading
10:18<MercedesBens>I now have resolution 1024x768, but when I click on the "Full Screen", the resolution is changed to another. how do I change it
10:20<Rubidium>if that happens, then Windows tells OpenTTD that Windows cannot change the display's resolution to 1024x768. In that case OpenTTD falls back to the current desktop resolution.
10:20<Diablo-D3>MNIM: its kind of nonobvious how to use tbrs with ttrs... you have to tell ttrs not use any of its own infrastructure apparently
10:21<MNIM>though, for some reason, the town names sets don't work
10:21<Rubidium>where and why Windows decides that said resolution is unavailable is beyond me, but Windows (or the video driver) makes the decision
10:21<Diablo-D3>MNIM: pretty sure the town names sets override each other
10:21<@Alberth>MercedesBens: that's 1,680px × 1,050px here
10:22<MNIM>ah. well, not a single one of those works, I still get the default names
10:22<Diablo-D3>also, dwe and vast? hrm
10:22<Diablo-D3>maybe I should throw those in
10:22<Diablo-D3>I took suburban, rural, and city stations out
10:22<Diablo-D3>they kinda suck
10:22<Diablo-D3>and I cant get them to work right
10:22<MercedesBens>Alberth, ?
10:23<Rubidium>MNIM: would you next time please make a screenshot with OpenTTD's screenshot feature. It will make a significantly smaller screenshot, and you don't have to blur out stuff on the taskbar
10:23<MNIM>dwe has pipelines, those look nice on oil/water stations
10:23<MNIM>I wouldn't recommend vast, though, really
10:23<@Alberth>MercedesBens: that image is bigger than the resolution you desire
10:23<MNIM>just a collection of empty stationtiles
10:23<Diablo-D3>MNIM: well yeah, thats the point
10:23<Diablo-D3>its all art
10:23<Rubidium>Alberth: where did he post an image?
10:23<MNIM>it's in the list more because I forgot to pull it out, than that I found any real use for it
10:24<Diablo-D3>I wanna add marico next
10:24<MNIM>other stationsets provide empty tiles as well (and/or prettier)
10:24<MNIM>marico is a good one!
10:24<@Alberth>MercedesBens: ooh, it's not your image. Sorry for the confusion
10:24<MNIM>sadly, it's a bit bugged
10:24<@Alberth>Rubidium: thanks
10:24<MNIM>I can't build 'em ingame, though it's said to be possible
10:25<Diablo-D3>MNIM: I thought you had to use the other menu to build em
10:25<MNIM>they're newobjects
10:25<Diablo-D3>it adds a new action on the landscaping toolbar
10:25<Diablo-D3>is what what newobjects are?
10:26<MNIM>but they don't appear on the objects selection window
10:26<Diablo-D3>meh Ill keep it out then
10:26<MNIM>unless a fixed version appears, you can do that
10:27<MercedesBens>I want resolution in full screen 1024x768, rather than less, which offers games to choose from the list
10:27<MNIM>but when it does work, it is *pretty*
10:28<Diablo-D3>yeah exactly
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10:28<MNIM>one of my better games
10:28<Diablo-D3>I think I might throw in a HQ replacement grf too
10:28<MNIM>sadly, it got lost in an OS reinstall
10:29<MNIM>that one had a un-bugged version of marico - it was glorious
10:29<appe>MNIM: now that is a pretty sight.
10:29*MNIM notes to self: backup /home/ more often
10:30<Diablo-D3>see, that as a pax station tile would be awesome
10:31<MNIM>the only disadvantage of that game was that in later stages of the game the bridges you see down-left were rather bogged down with rail traffic between the two mega cities
10:31<MNIM>restructuring was ...expensive.
10:32<Diablo-D3>SHUT UP ALREADY
10:32<MNIM>in the same game:
10:32<appe>i never play with it on.
10:32<MNIM>I do, but I have 'em to reduced
10:33<V453000>LOL dutch sea-level land MNIM ? :D
10:33<Diablo-D3>I have it on reduced, but I have a giant bus fleet
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10:33<V453000>breakdowns are stupid, even if you service trains the most you can, they still break down
10:33<Diablo-D3>so it just keeps making the goddamned noise
10:33<Diablo-D3>V453000: EXACTLY
10:33<MNIM>the rest of the map is rather mountainous, though
10:33<Diablo-D3>I even had a goddamned depot order in
10:33<Diablo-D3>and they keep making that damned noise
10:33<V453000>and breakdowns just make the game easier over all
10:34<V453000>in the long run ..
10:35<V453000>sure, it leaves less room for inventions and making up stuff for intensively busy networks
10:35<V453000>because you will never get to that point with breakdowns on
10:35<MNIM>meh, I do
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10:36<MNIM>see this:
10:36<V453000>well, if you had intensively busy network, you would not be able to get away with 1 bridge per line
10:36<MNIM>then this
10:36<MNIM>also, I keep bridges at five tiles long max, usually
10:37<MNIM>that's just silly.
10:37<MNIM>how many trains there?
10:37<V453000>1200 I think
10:37<V453000>silly? ok
10:37<MNIM>in that one pic alone, I mean
10:38<V453000>dont know, count them
10:38<V453000>but it is for 4 _full_ lines of trains
10:38<V453000>the full is key for "intensive" traffic
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10:39<V453000>but yes, it is completely silly, which is why we are improving our building style for years
10:41<MNIM>personally I like 'em most like that last pic I posted. possibly not the most efficient use of ground, but definitely the prettiest (IMNSHO)
10:42<V453000>if that is pretty for you :)
10:43<V453000>those things look nice to me
10:43<V453000>but probably the best thing is
10:44<MNIM>is that a quadline junction?
10:45<V453000>3 from 2 sides, 4 from one
10:45<V453000>oh, no
10:45<V453000>3 from 2 and 2 from the northern one
10:46<@peter1138>197 is mr ugly
10:46<V453000>sure is
10:46<MNIM>it is a /bit/ bigger than most of my junctions
10:47<V453000>it is extremely small
10:47<MNIM>also, I usually hide a station somewhere near my junction, which tends to complicate them
10:49<MNIM>though, I should admit, I have no quad*quad*quad*quad junctions
10:51<V453000>4way juntcions are never worth building instead of 3ways, from 2 lines or more they become uselessly big and unexpandale
10:51<V453000>just to reply on the number of *quads* :p
10:51<MNIM>ah yeah, I can follow that thought
10:51<@peter1138>i like to build my junctions just outside of stations
10:51<@peter1138>it's inefficient but pretty ;p
10:52<MNIM>same here
10:52<MNIM>and if I can help it, I try to integrate the station in my junction
10:52<V453000>yes, which keeps you from needing any system for your network because PBS allows you to do such messy things :)
10:53<MNIM>well, PBS helps :D
10:53<V453000>that isnt too bad
10:53<V453000>but PBS is just evil :)
10:54<MNIM>generally I only use PBS for loadbalancing on quadlines and leaving roro stations with shared platforms
10:54<MNIM>when used like that, they work pretty well
10:55<V453000>pretty well until you get high traffic :)
10:56<MNIM>nah, that's where they start having an advantage, at least in this setup that's what I experienced
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10:56<MNIM>as six trains can leave and enter the station at one side at once, which wouldn't be possible with presignals
10:57<Diablo-D3>milk in 2cc
10:57<Diablo-D3>doesnt use a tanker
10:58<Diablo-D3>I can either yes boxcar or silo
10:58<MNIM>unless I add miles of bridges and complicated rail paths, of course. that would be most effecient, in terms of traffic densities and likelyhood of jams
10:58<MNIM>but less effecient In terms of land usage
10:58<V453000>you still havent understood what I mean by high traffic :P
10:59<MNIM>I know, I know what you mean
10:59<MNIM>but when I have to transport large quantities of resources from several mines at once I go for 14 block or even 28 block trains
11:00<MNIM>with feeder services
11:00<V453000>whats the problem? :)
11:00<MNIM>you use lots of small trains
11:01<MNIM>I go for the scale enlargement option
11:03<Diablo-D3>man raw milk in a boxcar
11:04<MNIM>diablo: the question is, is the issue in your trainset or in your industries vector?
11:06<MNIM>the latter is more likely, as the trainset only supplies wagons for certain types of cargoes - liquid, goods, solid minerals/grain etc, livestock and valuables, mail, humans
11:06<MNIM>the industry vector defines cargoes and what kind of cargo they are
11:10<Elukka>is milk actually transported in tankers these days?
11:10<@peter1138>oh balls
11:10<@peter1138>i made a crap train because i forgot about loan :p
11:10<MNIM>not in train tankers, as far as Im aware
11:11<Elukka>i know the brits did it at some point
11:11<Diablo-D3>whats a silo car?
11:15<Diablo-D3>thats sorta tankerish
11:15<Diablo-D3>but why the hell does a boxcar hold a crapload more milk than that
11:15<Elukka>i don't think it's for liquids
11:15<Elukka>i have a model like that for animal feed
11:16<Diablo-D3>well according to 2cc
11:16<Diablo-D3>with firs
11:16<Diablo-D3>it says alchohol, chemicals, milk, oil, petrol
11:16<Diablo-D3>the tanker does chemicals, oil, and petrol
11:17<Diablo-D3>the boxcar does alchohol, supplies, supplies, fish, food, fruit and vegitables, goods, livestock, supplies, and milk
11:17<Diablo-D3>and the hopper does ore ore ore grain ore lumber plant fibres ore ore sugar beet and wood
11:19<MNIM>well, according to 2CC with ECS, my tanker does oil, petrol, refined products and water
11:19<MNIM>silo does dyes, oil, petrol, refined products and water.
11:20<MNIM>the boxcar does mostly foodstuffs and valuables
11:21<erik1984>MNIM: lol that's planning ahead for the city growth
11:22<erik1984>I was refering to the screenshots posted earlier btw.
11:23<MNIM>I know
11:23<MNIM>on of my earlier games I did it the 'natural' way
11:24<MNIM>let me tell you, erasing half a city because you need to double up your tracks and station... not pretty
11:27<erik1984>Smart move, it sucks when you have to resort to bribing.
11:27<Diablo-D3>I have a fleet of 25 maddelena ferriies
11:27<Diablo-D3>the big 800 pax ones
11:27<MNIM>I know
11:27<Diablo-D3>I have busses transferring to them from one city
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>"no further government funding for Transrapid test track planned after the end of this year"
11:28<MNIM>the one marico screenshot I showed?
11:28<MNIM>those were madelenas, they hardly sufficed
11:28<Diablo-D3>its lol
11:28<MNIM>two gigantic cities, right next to eachother
11:29<MNIM>express trains shuttling solely between those two, madelenas and a couple of faster boats, 300kmh+ intercities and stoptrains
11:30<Diablo-D3>theres 100 busses alternating between two loops in the city
11:30<Diablo-D3>an inner loop and an outer loop
11:30<Diablo-D3>and I think I need more busses
11:30<MNIM>the sad part about it all?
11:31<MNIM>all that passenger traffic being transported makes the cities increasingly bigger
11:31<MNIM>it's a self-reinforcing loop
11:31<Diablo-D3>I know
11:31<Diablo-D3>I played citybuilder for awhile
11:31<Diablo-D3>I actually won a few games using massive inner city pax
11:31<Diablo-D3>and just providing the bare minimum of other crap
11:39<Diablo-D3>man I have more ferry traffic than new york city
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11:42<Eddi|zuHause>even more than Rubidium's game?
11:43<MNIM>how much did he have?
11:47<MNIM>I would say that's a tad bit much
11:48<MNIM>I take it he doesn't use realistic acceleration?
11:48<Diablo-D3>too much shit doesnt work with it
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11:51<Diablo-D3>wtf? hes actually using waterway bridges? wtf
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>i would link to,%205.%20Nov%201988.png but the server is down today...
11:52<Rubidium>Diablo-D3: why do you think I implemented them?
11:52<Diablo-D3>because you're insane?
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11:53<Eddi|zuHause>seriously, who in this channel is not insane? :p
11:53<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: DorpsGek?
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: a bot can only be as insane as its implementer? :)
11:54<MNIM>well, considering the bot has crazy in it's very name...
11:54<Rubidium>hmm, sorry... he is insane
11:54<MNIM>also,i have once or twice used aquaducts
11:54<MNIM>but what Im more interested in right now would be water tunnels
11:55<Rubidium>"lack of understanding as prevents one from having the mental capacity required by law for criminal responsibility"
11:55<MNIM>I usually have to build my railway junctions on top of rivers, you see
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: asides from it not being overly "realistic", they'd be very glitchy, as ships are so huge
11:55<MNIM>well, they do exist, though they're usually for canals
11:56<MNIM>so realism, like usual, would lie in the hands of the player
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: they're usually for very small boats
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: but like i said, there are not only "realism" arguments
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11:57<MNIM>well, ships fit in a single-tile canal, and they fit under single-level bridges
11:57<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: it's working again
11:57<MNIM>either way, I do suspect it would be a rather huge coding effort
11:57<MNIM>by the way, eddi, the,%205.%20Nov%201988.png link does work for me
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: ah nice :)
11:58<MNIM>it's more my kind of work
11:58<MNIM>ah lol, ninja'd
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>was down since yesterday
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11:58<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: the gray rail is high-speed-rail?
11:58<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: the various shades of gray are various speeds, yes
11:59<MNIM>looks like an old version of nutracks?
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>frankly, i don't like the new nutracks... colours are too similar
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>and too noisy
12:00<MNIM>personally I like 'em
12:00<MNIM>guess it's a thing of taste
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>that was a yacd 1.x game
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>but not actually the final state
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>pirates: 8.5%, FDP: 2.0%
12:05<Elukka>cs tracks are still my favorite
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>i really hate the cs tracks
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>even more noise than the nutracks. and it's too bright
12:07<Diablo-D3>OH WOW
12:08<Diablo-D3>nocab installed an airport for the entire purpose of flying livestock
12:11<Elukka>hrm can't make the post wagon look very good
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12:14<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: what do you think?
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: dunno, hard to decide
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12:27<Elukka>well i'm leaning towards the alternative version now, slightly modified
12:29<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what do you think to a 'Cars' cargo?
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: nah, let it be goods
12:31<andythenorth>that has the slightly odd result that 'goods' will go from auto plant to hardware store, food market, etc
12:31<andythenorth>abstract cargos are fine. But so far in FIRS we've managed to avoid 'weird'
12:32<Elukka>i think it's starting to look okay to me but now's the best time for suggestions because i hate reworking everything when all the sprites are done
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12:33<andythenorth>Elukka: it's nice
12:33<andythenorth>I would add highlight for 1px width at right hand edge of roof
12:33<andythenorth>and same on raised brake tower
12:33<andythenorth>just go 1 shade lighter
12:34<Elukka>i dunno
12:34<Elukka>i do that on the diagonals but it looks kinda odd in the side view
12:35<andythenorth>up to you ;)
12:35<Elukka>suggestions are good anyway :P
12:35<andythenorth>how annoying is it to randomise industry produced cargos?
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so, how many cargos can you sacrifice for yet another town sink?
12:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: dunno
12:35<andythenorth>there's only 1 left :P
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>and what's left for a generic "goods" cargo?
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>if you split off Food, Building Materials and Cars?
12:37<andythenorth>currently, generic 'goods'
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>what's still producing goods?
12:37<andythenorth>foundry, plastics plant, furniture factory, paper mill, textile mill
12:39<andythenorth>I had planned car plant for a specific 'manufacturing' economy, with rubber + auto parts + automobile cargos
12:39<andythenorth>I'm not sure it fits in the main FIRS economy
12:40<andythenorth>maybe I should just add back a generic 'factory'
12:40<andythenorth>could do something interesting, like a ship yard or such
12:40<andythenorth>what uses metal and is interesting?
12:40<andythenorth>doesn't have to produce, could be a sink
12:41<Elukka>i think cars are pretty interesting
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>i still think my previous suggestion works best: remove goods from foundry, possibly add building materials instead. and make a car (or generic) factory that accepts metal and manufacturing supplies
12:41<andythenorth>I favour generic factory
12:41<TWerkhoven>locomotive works?
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>the advantage of that is: you don't need any additional cargos
12:46<andythenorth>leaving 1 spare
12:46<andythenorth>it's the most logical solution
12:46<andythenorth>is there anything left-field which would be fun?
12:46<andythenorth>we've had factories for years :P
12:49<TWerkhoven>tin food factory
12:50<andythenorth>got one :)
12:51<Eddi|zuHause>it's just that cars are one of the most important consumer goods that are usually transported by rail
12:51<andythenorth>I know
12:51<andythenorth>it just has a few too many rough edges to make it work
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>make the factory generic enough that one can with a clean consciousness use car transporters for it :)
12:53<andythenorth>bicycle plant?
12:53<andythenorth>that's plausible
12:54<andythenorth>you're still delivering cars to a food store :P
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>or make several factories that have no significant functional difference
12:55*andythenorth ponders
12:55<MNIM>in ecs, do (large) cities accept vehicles?
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12:59<Elukka>that, however, seems like it'd be rather sensible
12:59<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: one factory for stuff and one for things
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>you need a grf that contains a car shop industry (or house)
13:03<MNIM>hmmmh yeah, a car dealership makes sense
13:04<Diablo-D3>I'd support that
13:04<Eddi|zuHause>check if the "ECS houses" (which is a subset of "functional" houses from TTRS) contains that
13:04<Diablo-D3>but maybe we should be working on firs more ;)
13:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I _could_ have the steel mill produce building materials directly
13:07<andythenorth>assume it has a rolling plant for girders
13:07<andythenorth>also foobar wanted that - steel mills produce slag cement
13:07<Eddi|zuHause>what's the sense of the foundry then?
13:08<andythenorth>leave it at goods
13:08<andythenorth>I think it's not the best route
13:08<andythenorth>I don't need more building materials. I need another place to send metal
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>turn foundry into factory then, accept metal and mnsp
13:08<andythenorth>it's the route I'll go if we think of nothing more interesting
13:08<andythenorth>it's 80% likely :)
13:09<andythenorth>some metal-processing industry? rolling mill? Stamping plant?
13:10*andythenorth -> wikipedia
13:10<Eddi|zuHause>shipyard: accept metal, produce supplies?
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>engineering supplies in this case
13:11<andythenorth>could be
13:11<andythenorth>would look neat
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>shipyards do not only produce ships, also large diesel engines may be produced there
13:12<andythenorth>engine plant?
13:12<andythenorth>foundry does casting
13:12<andythenorth>maybe a rolling mill
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13:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: on pure logic, the factory wins
13:19<MNIM>there's only one real thing about the whole ttrs that bothers me.
13:20<MNIM>next to the ttrs city towers, the company headquarters looks really tiny.
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13:21<V453000>well nobody says you should use HQ in a city :)
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>there's really only ONE thing that bothers you about TTRS?!?
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>besides, you can use a HQ replacement
13:26<V453000>there is no thing that bothers me with TTRS really ... the glitches are sometimes a bit weird, but it looks awesome all in all
13:28<MercedesBens>where you can share save?
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>forum, if it's not too big
13:30<andythenorth>there's only one thing wrong with TTRS
13:30<andythenorth>lighting direction :P
13:30<V453000>never even noticed that
13:30<V453000>so it cant be that bad :P
13:31<MercedesBens>where you can download save other players?
13:31<V453000>hehe, directly from the right? :D how far is that from other newgrfs andythenorth ?
13:32<andythenorth>not too bad
13:32<V453000>doesnt look too different to me
13:33<andythenorth>V453000: I take it back :)
13:33<andythenorth>TTRS has some awesome art in it
13:33<V453000>MercedesBens: some saves here
13:33<V453000>it totally does ^_^
13:34<andythenorth>it does light sloped roofs wrong though
13:34<V453000>well, yeah, that is the deformation - you as an artist notice that, I obey the shiny illusion it provides :P
13:34<V453000>which is imo what graphics are about - making the illusion and looking nice
13:35<andythenorth>so a rolling mill could produce building materials, and (when in the economy) auto parts
13:36<V453000>maybe not that way :P
13:37<MercedesBens>V453000, thanks
13:37<V453000>MercedesBens: hope you will enjoy them :P
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13:38<MercedesBens>from what country/city you are?
13:38<V453000>me? Czech Republic
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so you want to transport molten metal from steel furnace to rolling mill? :)
13:39<andythenorth>but I thought of doing that to the foundry
13:39<MercedesBens>Interestingly where I play this game
13:39<andythenorth>has anyone drawn torpedo cars?
13:39<V453000>or molten cows to vehicle factory to produce trojan horses
13:39<andythenorth>torpedo cars would be a good independent grf
13:40<andythenorth>or maybe in HEQS :D
13:40<MercedesBens>My English is terrible
13:42<MercedesBens>people, from what you cities?
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22942 /trunk/src/lang/ (slovak.txt spanish.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 26 changes by Peymanpn
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: slovak - 73 changes by klingacik
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: spanish - 3 changes by Terkhen
13:48<andythenorth>neko drew torpedo cars
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13:56<TinoDidriksen>Is there an option to disable airplane crashing anywhere yet?
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>disable "normal" crashes in advanced settings, and disable "small airport" crashes in cheats
13:58<V453000>I think the advanced settings are enough, never seen a plane crash and I dont use cheats
13:58<V453000>and I use small airports
13:59<TinoDidriksen>Oh there it is...I looked all over that thing earlier and skipped right past the option.
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>happens to all of us :p
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14:18<andythenorth>will you moan if I add rail heavy equipment cars
14:18<andythenorth>hot steel torpedos, heavy equipment carriers...
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14:21<Elukka>i will not moan
14:22<Diablo-D3>I go afk for like a half hour
14:22<Diablo-D3>and now I have 21 million
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14:43<MNIM>hmmmh, Ive got a question
14:44<MNIM>in this pic, the vilskrch Hafen (slightly below the topmost city, right of the island airport)
14:44<MNIM>what newgrf are those dock objects?
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14:45<MNIM>I like 'em
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14:53<Diablo-D3>man when the hell does 2cc get good trains
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15:02<Diablo-D3>oh wait
15:02<Diablo-D3>I think I know what the problem is
15:02<Diablo-D3>I have train weight turned up to 5
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15:03<Diablo-D3>because nars and ukrs says it shoyuld be
15:04<Diablo-D3>whats the default, 1?
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15:08<V453000>Alberth: 43 usually
15:08<V453000>or is there a new default?
15:08<@Alberth>not that I am aware of
15:08<@Alberth>I often use 10
15:08<Diablo-D3>Im on an alpine map
15:09<Diablo-D3>with mountains turned up the whole way
15:09<Diablo-D3>and its absurd that 4 engines cant pull 24 cars
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15:10<@Alberth>on the way down it works quite nicely :)
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15:10<@Alberth>steepness of the slope is also of importance
15:10<Diablo-D3>not too steep
15:10<Diablo-D3>its like half full steepness
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15:18<frosch123>yay, hot tea
15:20<@Alberth>good night
15:22<andythenorth>MNIM: the dock objects are probably FIRS fishing harbour industries
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15:24<andythenorth>it's a nice map. who's screenshot is that?
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>that is mine
15:31<andythenorth>'tis nice ;)
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>and this is a firs fishing harbour
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15:47<MNIM>sadly, Im using ecs
15:51<MNIM>ah yes, I see now.
15:51*MNIM sadfaces.
15:52<@planetmaker>you know... luckily OpenTTD doesn't charge you for each game. Thus you can play a new game (for free!) when you have finished your current one. And even you decide when you have finished it
15:53<MNIM>I like all the rail station pretties in ottd, but sometimes I wish there were more harbour pretties
15:53<@planetmaker>use railstations for that effect
15:53<TWerkhoven[l]>a lot of non-track tiles are fairly generic anyway
15:55<MNIM>I know, but those can't be built on a slope (facing the wrong way) or on the water
15:56<@planetmaker>they usually have two rotations... so that's not an issue
15:56<erik1984>@planetmaker: Yeah OpenTTD is value for money ;)
15:56<@planetmaker>and on water... just build canal all around and bulldoze that tile. Then build "on water"
15:57<MNIM>money? since when do you need to pay for openttd 0-0
16:00<andythenorth>FISH needs a lot more ships
16:00<@planetmaker>yeah... lazy author. He didn't spam the purchase list with zillions of ships :-P
16:01<@planetmaker>does it need river ships?
16:01<@planetmaker>I wondered whether the paddle steamer should rather be river ships
16:02<andythenorth>it will be better when I do more generations
16:02<andythenorth>currently there's hardly progresion
16:02<andythenorth>I lost my co-spriter :(
16:02<@planetmaker>hm, who was that?
16:03<@planetmaker>did he tell that he'd go for a hiatus?
16:03-!-jo2k [] has joined #openttd
16:03<@planetmaker>oh :-S
16:04<@planetmaker>sad news. One of the talented ones
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16:18<@Terkhen>hmm :(
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16:38<andythenorth>good night
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16:45<@Terkhen>good night
16:52<MNIM>2200hp just ain't cutting it for a 14tile long cargo train, it seems.
16:52<MNIM>I should be glad it's not doing the mountainous route >.>
16:52<MNIM>even some bridges are only taken at 60-70 kmh
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>in germany, the heaviest trains are pulled by ~18000hp (2 engines pull, one pushes)
16:54<MNIM>probably the same over here
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>those are ore trains with 25t axle weight and 250 axles in total (including engines)
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>they go from Hamburg to Salzgitter
16:57<MNIM>what is more important with realistic acceleration and heavy trains? kN or hp?
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>kN is important at low speeds and on slopes, hp is important on any other place
16:58<MNIM>ah, ty
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>"low speed" is something like 10-20km/h, depending on engine
17:01<MNIM>low speed ain't the problem so far, it's more that it'll block other traffic at slopes going below 70kmh
17:02<MNIM>even though it's maximum elevation above sea level is only three units
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17:03<Eddi|zuHause>"Pro Tag starten vier volle Züge bei Hansaport, und es kommen vier leere Züge zurück - alles Spezialwaggons mit sechs Achsen. 101 Tonnen Ladung schluckt jeder Waggon. 40 Waggons hängen hinter den beiden E-Loks der Baureihe 151. Jede Lok wiegt 118 Tonnen. Das Gesamtgewicht des 640 Meter langen Erztransporters liegt bei 5700 Tonnen."
17:03<MNIM>using the sbb am4/6 from the 2cc. 2200hp and 132kn: something tells me that train was not made for freight trains
17:04<MNIM>oh well, it's just as expensive in running as the old loc while going from five to 14 tiles of freight, so profit should be made anyway :P
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>"Die 205 Kilometer lange Strecke ist nach viereinhalb Stunden geschafft."
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>oh, that is even old info, the trains are even heavier nowadays
17:08<Diablo-D3>oh shit
17:08<Diablo-D3>this isnt good
17:08<Diablo-D3>I am now exceeding the ability of my ferries to pick up pax
17:09<Diablo-D3>oh wait nm
17:09<Diablo-D3>I ran out of ships
17:10*Diablo-D3 builds 25 more ferries
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>that's 27 clicks!
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>or 29 if you count opening the depot and scrolling to an existing ship
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>asymptotocally that's n+o(n) with n being the number of new ships
17:19<__ln__>are there mice with a kind of 'auto-fire' switch?
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause>you have programmable buttons?
17:20<__ln__>would be also useful when debuggin something with KDevelop 3.
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17:23<Diablo-D3>I wish there was clone and drag
17:23<Diablo-D3>control shift click clone, drag through spots
17:23<Diablo-D3>mass clone
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>shift is cost estimate
17:28<Eddi|zuHause> <-- something is wrong in this image :p
17:36<Pinkbeast>Shunted there by a diesel, maybe?
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17:37<TWerkhoven[l]>there do seem to be overhead lines on that line, pantographs are just down
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17:38<Pinkbeast>Oh, maybe you're right, they just don't show up in shot very well
17:40*TWerkhoven[l] gives up
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17:45<Eddi|zuHause>no, the "end of train" signs are attached to the rain sweepers :p
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>(the red/white plates)
17:45<TWerkhoven[l]>i thought those were just decorative
17:46<TWerkhoven[l]>i take it they are supposed to be affixed to the buffers or lights according to regulations?
17:46<TWerkhoven[l]>or is this a non-remote control loc being towed at the end?
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>if the engine/wagon cannot show red lights, these red/white plates must be at the end of train. usually engines have special slots where they fit, but the BR 103 doesn't have any
17:50<TWerkhoven[l]>another thing learned
17:53<TWerkhoven[l]>and with that i is off to bed
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17:58<Eddi|zuHause>windows is too insecure. use apple.
18:01<MNIM>lol, apple, secure?
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18:04<MNIM>I'mma go and divulge a little secret here.
18:05<MNIM>but you already knew that, right?
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18:07<Diablo-D3>not true
18:07<Diablo-D3>dos is pretty safe
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18:09<Diablo-D3>Eddi|zuHause: what about control alt?
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>Diablo-D3: alt is forbidden, because on some OSes it is caught before it reaches the program
18:09<Diablo-D3>control meta?
18:10<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. on most linux window managers, alt+click means move window
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19:22<MNIM>nice train, this sbb Am 4/6, but for the love of god, don't have an engine failure right in front of a slope
19:23<MNIM>it's still not at the top of the slope by the time it's twin tail is behind it
19:24<MNIM>....and now we have two snail trains. >.<
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19:51<Eddi|zuHause>really what do you expect from using a hopelessly underpowered diesel engine from a country that has 99.9% electrified tracks?
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19:57<@peter1138>wikipedia says it's a gas turbine-electric
19:57<@peter1138>maybe i'm looking at the wrong thing
19:58<Eddi|zuHause2>being (internally) electric doesn't mean it can draw power from a catenary
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20:02<@peter1138>i don't think i was suggesting such a thing?
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20:04<Eddi|zuHause>but it's something typically 2cc-ish to include an engine that was built in 1 experimental unit and never reached market readiness
20:05<@peter1138>heh, 6000kW, 4500kW of which was required to drive itself
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>yep, i guess that's typical for gas turbines
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20:13<@peter1138>how very inefficient
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22:37<pjpe>it's crazy just how much worse mojang's development process is than like
22:37<pjpe>anything else
22:37<pjpe>including this
22:37<pjpe>and they're actually paid to work on it
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 19 00:00:11 2011