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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-19

---Logopened Mon Sep 19 00:00:11 2011
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01:37<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22943 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/cocoa_v.mm: -Fix: [OSX] Typo broke debug compilation
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02:49<norbert79>Morning
02:49<Markk>Morning.
02:49<Markk>norbert79: Ireland?
02:50<norbert79>Morning Markk. Ireland?
02:50<Markk>norbert79: I just saw the emea.ibm.com-domain.
02:51<Markk>I just wondered if you work in Ireland like. :)
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02:54<@Terkhen>good morning
02:54<norbert79>Morning Terkhen
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03:48<Elukka>why is there a terrible lack of steam era central european train sim content :(
03:49<Ammler>which newgrfs did you try?
03:49<Elukka>train sims as in railworks, ottd has plenty :D
03:49<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Screenshot_BathGreenParkToTemplecombe1.png
03:49<Elukka>got the urge to play some
03:49<@planetmaker>:-)
03:50<Ammler>ok :-)
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03:56<Diablo-D3>8gb of memory is not enough to play openttd.
03:56<Diablo-D3>this is awesome.
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03:57<@planetmaker>it is quite enough. Unless you hack it.
03:57<Ammler>you need around 20MB
03:57<@planetmaker>@calc 8 * 2048**2
03:57<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 33554432
03:58<@planetmaker>@calc 8 * 2048**2 / 1024**3
03:58<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 0.03125
03:58<Diablo-D3>well, Im running into swap
03:58<Diablo-D3>and you cant blame firefox, its only using 4gb of memory
03:58<@planetmaker>depends strongly on map size and vehicle count, Ammler :-)
03:58<Ammler>of course, "around" :-P
03:58<norbert79>I wish there would be an M in the word swap...
03:59<Ammler>is it possible to go above 100MB?
03:59<Ammler>hmm, maybe with 32bpp
03:59<norbert79>Ammler: Maybe with the generic binaries
04:00<norbert79>since of the statically included stuff it grew from 7 MB to 20
04:00<norbert79>:)
04:00<@Terkhen>maybe with the huge maps patch :P
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04:02<Diablo-D3>current usage according to top is 866m
04:05<norbert79>...and then it turns out, that Diablo is using some own patches or own compile, and he will just rob precious time of the admins on focsing on a problem, where there is no problem...
04:18<Ammler>norbert79: generic bins are still 7
04:18<Ammler>also why should that matter for memory usage?
04:19<norbert79>Ammler: Nope, not since 1.1.3... Just updated my fullpack
04:19<Ammler>oh, just checked the nightleis
04:19<norbert79>each of the i686 and x86_64 are 20 mb, at least the executable
04:19<norbert79>Those aren't generic... :) Not by the word :)
04:19<Ammler>ah
04:20<norbert79>Nah, just wanted to mention. It's a bit just weird to see such big executables, where the original game was around 20 MB packed :)
04:20<Ammler>indeed 20MB, but anyway, I don't see why such binaries would need more memory
04:20<norbert79>now the executables are :)
04:21<norbert79>well, since generic, they don't... But still, 20 MB :) Come on... I miss the old times having executables being a few hundred kb big :)
04:21*planetmaker still found the keyboard driver I had on DOS 3.3...6.0 marvelous: 291byte(!)
04:22<@planetmaker>compared to the ~20kByte of the generic one
04:22<@planetmaker>helped to run quite some hungry games ;-)
04:22<norbert79>planetmaker: Aye, but those 291 directly spread the codes to the keys through DOS calls.
04:22<norbert79>So that's why the small size :)
04:23<norbert79>I wonder how well FreeDOS would run some games. Had the main memory usage issues a few years back
04:23<norbert79>I couldn't get main memory above 590 KB
04:23<norbert79>whatever I did
04:23<norbert79>where under DOS 6.22 I always had aroun 615
04:24<norbert79>a DOS client of OpenTTD would be nice :))
04:24<norbert79>back to the roots
04:25<norbert79>hah, and Freedos supports TCP-IP
04:25<@Terkhen>you should be able to compile one
04:25<@Terkhen>but no one has tried that recently
04:26<norbert79>I wish I would have more time, I would sure give that a try, and test under my old 486
04:26<@planetmaker>last time someone I know that it was tested it worked, though
04:27<@Terkhen>yes, it was a year ago or so :)
04:27<norbert79>hehhe... Neat
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04:49<Elukka>http://vimeo.com/4946315
04:49<Elukka>really neat tilt shift video
04:49<Elukka>makes everything look miniature
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04:52<@peter1138>i want to see the opposite, to make models look BIG
04:53<Elukka>that might be harder
04:54<Elukka>märklin has really impressive promo pictures, though... too bad they don't seem to keep a repository of them anywhere
04:58<norbert79>Elukka: really neat non-tils shifted place. Everything is minature. Really... :) http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com/
05:03<Elukka>ha
05:06<norbert79>A real-life OpenTTD :D
05:06-!-Eddi|zuHause4 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
05:12<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: do you happen to know what oberhümer is talking about with regards to the palette?
05:13<Elukka>...oh, i may have used the palette that doesn't include company colors
05:14<Elukka>don't know if it matters since there aren't any though
05:14<@planetmaker>it matters
05:15<@planetmaker>there's only one valid palette: that which contains all colours
05:15<Elukka>well, that explains it
05:15<Elukka>i did have both files but must have clicked the wrong one
05:25<MNIM>hmmm
05:25<MNIM>I wonder
05:25<MNIM>the car removal button in the autoreplace window, does it also work when I replace a 0.5 tile long loc with a 0.8 loc?
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05:35<Diablo-D3>goddamnit I hate ships sometimes
05:35<Diablo-D3>IF I TELL YOU TO GOTO THE DAMNED OIL RIG, DO IT
05:36<norbert79>Diablo-D3: Please refrain from such behaviour here...
05:36<@planetmaker>use a proper ship path finder then, Diablo-D3
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05:37<norbert79>It would be also advisable reviewing the ship you would like to send somewhere, if the specific ship is capable of transporting specific goods.
05:38<erik1984>or use more buoys
05:38<norbert79>Indeed a good idea too
05:38<norbert79>a well layed down grid can do wonders
05:39<Diablo-D3>erik1984: the depot is right infront of the rifg
05:41<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: which one?
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05:41<Diablo-D3>planetmaker: advanced settings says original is recommended
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05:45<norbert79>Split?
05:46<pugi>nope, chuck testa.
05:46<@peter1138>no, they're all on the same host
05:46<Markk>I just think their server died.
05:46<norbert79>Yep, all were on openttdcoop.org
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05:47<norbert79>It's getting up
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05:53<@planetmaker>Diablo-D3: it does not for me ;-)
05:53<@planetmaker>(which again proves: whining is annoying)
05:53<@peter1138>use a proper bouncer host :p
05:53<norbert79>lol
05:53<norbert79>touché :)
05:53<@planetmaker>peter1138: kernel upgrades usually means the applications running on the host need to reboot ;-)
05:54<norbert79>planetmaker: ever heard of ksplice? :)
05:54<@peter1138>ksplice is nasty
05:54<norbert79>peter1138: Never tested it, but it sure works nice
05:54<norbert79>peter1138: according from those who run it
05:55<@planetmaker>that won't help either, unless you pay for it
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05:55<norbert79>planetmaker: for some systems it's free of charge
05:55<@peter1138>it binary patches the kernel with bits
05:55<@planetmaker>not for server systems
05:55<@peter1138>so you're running a mix of the old & new kernel
05:56<@peter1138>also, oracle bought it and changed everything
05:56<norbert79>peter1138: Not at all, basically it just updates those files, which needed to be updated. planetmaker: right... Pity
05:56<norbert79>peter1138: Oracle bought it true, but changed nothing yet
05:56<@peter1138>the kernel is not "files"
05:56<@planetmaker>it's one file
05:57<norbert79>If you use a modular kernel, then it isn't and the repos one aren't monolitic
05:57<norbert79>but true, no server support.. shame
05:58<@planetmaker>oh, and it's owned by oracle. That bodes worse than I expected
05:58<norbert79>aye, Oracle lay it's hands on everything.
05:58<norbert79>I hope there will be a fork of this solution too
05:58<norbert79>LibreOffice just got better since not under Oracle control
05:59<@peter1138>how's mysql going...
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05:59<norbert79>Never used it... Looking forward for PostreSQL anyway
05:59<norbert79>Postgre
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06:12<Ammler>planetmaker: this was not reboot
06:13<Ammler>:-)
06:14<Ammler>and there might be more today...
06:16<Ammler>how long does it take to xz a 5GB tar?
06:19<norbert79>Ammler: Depends on if SSD or regular SATA HDD, and on many small details
06:20<norbert79>if it contains more smaller files or few big one...
06:20<^Spike^>let's say a mix :)
06:20<Ammler>runs now 7mins already
06:20<SpComb>uncompressed tar?
06:20<norbert79>Realistic, depends on device load
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06:20<andythenorth>http://code.google.com/p/grafx2/
06:21<andythenorth>I never used deluxe paint, but it was responsible for some awesome amiga graphics in the early 1990s
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06:21<Ammler>SpComb, yes vzdump
06:21<norbert79>andythenorth: Looks nice, but what's the problem with GIMP? :S
06:22<andythenorth>there doesn't have to be a problem
06:22<SpComb>oh, not even very pathological then
06:22<andythenorth>not everything needs to be problematised
06:22<norbert79>andythenorth: Ah, just listed as FYI... Sorry :)
06:22<SpComb>a 5GB tar.gz could take milennia to extract, for all one knows :)
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06:24<norbert79>Hah, grafx2 is in the repos, nice
06:25<@peter1138>256-colour!
06:25<norbert79>just apt-get -ing it
06:25<norbert79>lets see...
06:26<norbert79>hmm, nice old-style 320x200 stlyed editing layout
06:27<Sacro>I loved DP"
06:27<Sacro>DP2#
06:27<@peter1138>seems more than that
06:28<norbert79>looks handy, a bit uncomfortable after GIMP though
06:28<Sacro>amigas had 16 bit colour
06:28<norbert79>need to get used to this
06:28<@peter1138>Sacro, not really
06:28<Sacro>well
06:28<norbert79>Sacro: Amigas had as many colours as many you wanted...
06:29<Sacro>you could use blitter tricks
06:29<norbert79>Sacro: That was the whole point. Besides there was the chipset which made the screen refresh over the top of everything. Amiga's were nice and are still nice, though it's a very closed product, that's why it would fade away completly...
06:30<norbert79>I personally liked Amigas, never had one though
06:30<Sacro>Yeah
06:30<Sacro>I love my 500
06:30<norbert79>Well, there is the 1000, 1200, 4000...
06:30<@peter1138>HAM-8, heh
06:30<norbert79>There is more, than the 500 :)
06:30<@peter1138>allowed 18-bit colour
06:31<Sacro>Yes :D
06:31<@peter1138>but only relies on the picture somewhat
06:31<V453000>throws errors under win7 :|
06:31<Sacro>norbert79: pssh
06:31<Sacro>500 .
06:31<Sacro>> *
06:31<norbert79>Workspace should go open source
06:31<@peter1138>think the 500 only had HAM6 though
06:32<@peter1138>which is 4096 colours
06:32<Sacro>Yeah
06:33<norbert79>PegasOS looks interesting, the problem comes with the software and the price of the machine.
06:33<norbert79>there used to be an openttd for Pegasos too, pity not anymore around
06:34<@peter1138>it's all rubbish
06:34<@peter1138>everyone knows that RISC OS was the best
06:34<norbert79>:)
06:34<norbert79>No, Mainframes and MVS is the best :D
06:34<norbert79>Or TSO
06:34<Sacro>I miss Workbench 1.3
06:35<norbert79>Well, in case you are Linux you can still install AmiWM :)
06:35<norbert79>...you are using...
06:38<Sacro>no
06:38<Sacro>that's WB2
06:56<Diablo-D3>one city is now using up 50 800 pax ferries
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06:57<@peter1138>http://oi56.tinypic.com/333byhw.jpg
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07:07<norbert79>peter1138: Not bad, but not really representing the real thing... And UNICS started in 1969 :)
07:07<norbert79>peter1138: Here, for fun: http://www.levenez.com/unix/
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07:23-!-Ammler is "Marcel Gmür" on @#openttdcoop.stable #openttdcoop.devzone @#openttdcoop.dev @#openttdcoop #openttd @+#coopetition
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07:33<Amis>Hi o/
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07:39<Amis>Is it possible to see the catchment area of an already built station?
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07:40<norbert79>Hi Amis...
07:40<Amis>Why's the dotdotdot?
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07:42<norbert79>Amis: Because I have starteds thinking about your question, but cannot answer yet
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07:43<Amis>Oh... I thought it's the "I'm being annoyed" kind of triple dot
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07:44<norbert79>Amis: No, not at all, just thought I might the answer, but no, One method I would use is on using the tool of placing new station tile, with "Show accept area" on, and 'walk' around the station with that
07:44<norbert79>Amis: But I guess something more easy or obvious would be preferred
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07:44<Amis>norbert79, indeed
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08:03<Diablo-D3>Jtech J-1 Roku
08:03<Diablo-D3>well I dunno about you, but I have a Roku sitting on my desk, and it doesnt look like that
08:08<V453000>make a better newGRF with it
08:08<V453000>go on
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08:12<norbert79>Diablo-D3: Girlfriend.jpeg. Well, I don't know about you, but I have a GF at home, and she looks much better, than the file.
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.hornoxe.com/wp-content/picdumps/picdump224/hornoxe.com_picdump224_010.jpg (german)
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>(marginally safe for work)
08:14<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: lol
08:14<@peter1138>errr
08:14<@peter1138>what?
08:14<Pinkbeast>Eddi> Hang on, if I understand that correctly, who the hell would fall for it to begin with?
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: read the line under the picture? :)
08:16<Pinkbeast>Eddi> OIC. Haha, I guess. It's probably funnier if you don't have to pick your way through the German. :-)
08:16*Pinkbeast can manage to survive the Wave-Gotik-Treffen but that doesn't really demand knowing any words beyond "bier", "wurst", and "bitte"
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>they say "bitte"?
08:17<norbert79>Good point
08:17<norbert79>:D
08:17<@peter1138>all i saw was tits
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, i'm sure they are all nice persons and stuff, but i can't really imagine that :p
08:18<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECWoPwPK864
08:18<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: my favorite
08:18<Pinkbeast>Eddi> at one point we were listening to some metal band in the pagan village, and at the end of each song the audience would clap and cheer.
08:18<Pinkbeast>And the singer would bellow DANKE SCHON in his metal voice
08:18<Pinkbeast>And _every time_ the audience would shout back BITTE SCHON in unison
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08:18<Pinkbeast>We're actually quite nice people really :-)
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08:21<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: and is there a version for ordering a Döner? :)
08:21<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: No idea, but probably :)
08:26<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: can you tell me a single point why would an "invisible leading engine GRF" be a stupid idea?
08:26<Pinkbeast>Of non-zero length?
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: not the engine itself, but the reasons why he did it
08:27<V453000>well his official reasons are a bit odd, but it is still very useful :)
08:27<V453000>Pinkbeast: I guess a vehicle cannot have zero length, can it?
08:28<Pinkbeast>I mean more if it has significant length won't it look really weird when waiting at signals etc?
08:29<V453000>if it is basically invisible?
08:29<V453000>and can be put in the end of train for some cases?
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: but there are several invisible engine grfs already
08:29<norbert79>What is an invisible engine good for?
08:29<V453000>yes but not usable for such a purpose as multiplying engines, which people cry about for ages
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>the only interesting thing he did was add the cc-blob in the depot
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: but for that, fix the original grf in the first place, not make some stupid hack-addon
08:32<V453000>fix? why
08:32<V453000>and well, stupid, doesnt force anyone to use it and it is quite a gentle solution
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>you are a truly weird person...
08:34<V453000>ok
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09:01<b_jonas>wouldn't it be hard to manipulate such an engine with the current UI?
09:02<norbert79>b_jonas: How do you mean?
09:02<b_jonas>I mean, even now the UI is a bit tricky, the way you have to drag-drop a large airplane to a narrow line to put it to a group, and no feedback on which group it will drop to
09:02<Elukka>so, wikipedia and brawa conflict on the length of 4 axle coaches by a pixel or two
09:02<b_jonas>perhaps if the invisible engine still showed up on the trains and depot window, but not on the map
09:03<Elukka>oberhümer prefers wiki, i went with brawa since they have pictures, and i'm really not so sure it's much of a difference
09:03<Elukka>and i'd rather not redo all the sprites :P
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>the problem currently is that there is no indication what is the "pointer" of the mouse, while you are dragging a vehicle
09:03<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: and that the bar of the group is not highlighted
09:03<b_jonas>and also that you _must_ use drag-drop
09:03<b_jonas>I'd like an alternate interface
09:03<norbert79>But why using such workarounds and tricks, why not using a seperate own GRF?
09:04<b_jonas>like an "add" button for the group which you first click, then you either click a train _anywhere_, or buy a train engine, and it's added to the group
09:05<b_jonas>I've been grown up in Windows where drag-drop is always just a shortcut, and non-drag-drop interfaces still can do anything
09:05<Elukka>Eddi|ZuHause, or anyone who knows german :D could you translate this snippet? google translate butchers it
09:05<Elukka>"Für viele preußische Bauarten wurden aufgrund von Änderungen der Innenräume, Türen, Aborte usw. und aufgrund von Neuauflagen der Musterblätter mehrere Skizzenblätter aufgestellt."
09:05<b_jonas>same thing for selling a vehicle
09:06<norbert79>Elukka: What the hell are you reading? :))
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: something about "there are several construction drawings, because lots of changes to interior, doors, toilets"
09:06<b_jonas>the list entry or button you're about to drop to should be highlighted at the very least
09:06<Elukka>wiki article on prussian coaches
09:07<norbert79>Skizzenblatt could be translated as blueprints...
09:07<Elukka>i'd assume they'd have slight variations in length
09:07<b_jonas>of course, we've inherited some of this GUI from TTD
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>ah, yes, that's the word
09:07<Elukka>it really seems unlikely to me that brawa would make a mistake (resulting in a longer coach) in their measurements
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: i don't think the length really varied that much, everything was done on roughly the same frame
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>but... i'm doing something different now... don't distract me!!
09:08<Elukka>well, brawa's are 19.55 meters, wiki says 18.55
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>18.5 is the measure i usually find
09:09<Elukka>19 is what i drew my stuff on
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09:10<norbert79>"Since the new resissued style sheets many preussen layouts were given new blueprints, because of the the changes in the interior, doors, toilettes, etc"
09:11<norbert79>I think this is kinda close to the original German text
09:11<Elukka>alright
09:11<Elukka>thanks :)
09:11<norbert79>You're welcome
09:12<norbert79>Btw
09:12<norbert79>http://www.talklikeapirate.com/ - Today's the day... Mateys
09:13<norbert79>Yarr
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>right after the pirates won the election, what a coincidence
09:18<norbert79>It didn't start this year though, it's something first come into life around 5-10 years ago :)
09:19<norbert79>have to suffer through that each year, since British colleagues love to celebrate it :)
09:20<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: http://www.talklikeapirate.com/about.html
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>i have witnessed that in here a few times :p
09:22<norbert79>...well, the day isn't over yet... :)
09:30<Elukka>wiki seems to indicate the length of the prussian coaches indeed varied
09:30<Elukka>in the context of both the six and eight-wheeled umbauwagen, it's mentioned that the undercarriage was rebuilt to a common length
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09:46<norbert79>Elukka: You see this is the thing I love in OpenTTD users most. Even though it's all about a few pixels within the game, people tend spending time creating the GRFs with greatest precision...
09:47<__ln__>http://www.accenture.com/us-en/Pages/success-transportation-finnish-rail-online-ticket-website-summary.aspx
09:47<__ln__>http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2011/09/vr_shuts_down_ticket_sales_machines_2881460.html
09:47<SpComb>__ln__: that accenture report is ye olde
09:48<SpComb>2003
09:48<__ln__>SpComb: that seems to be true
09:48<SpComb>it would be *highly* ironic if it was 2011 :)
09:49<SpComb>all the statements are like the exact opposite of the current situation
09:50<SpComb>which has already lead to much due-cause finger-pointing
09:52<SpComb>but myes, the date is hidden away in the PDF, not very good information-publishing
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09:58<andythenorth>ideas for what 'Factory' should look like in FIRS?
09:59<dihedral>hello
10:00<@Terkhen>factory-ish?
10:00<@Terkhen>hi dihedral and andythenorth
10:00<dihedral>http://iredmail.org/admin_panel_free_license.html
10:07<@planetmaker>http://www.bahnbilder.de/bilder/dienst--und-rangierloks-109061.jpg <-- andythenorth
10:07<andythenorth>hmm
10:08<andythenorth>one reason I am unenthusiastic about 'Factory' is that we already had them
10:08<andythenorth>how about 'Workshop' ?
10:08<Pinkbeast>What's it going to accept and create?
10:08<@planetmaker>http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/104/hemelingen-wilkens-01.jpg
10:09<andythenorth>accepts metal, maybe mnsp
10:09<andythenorth>produces goods
10:09<@planetmaker>hm... do we have a 'factory' in FIRS? Currently not, right?
10:09<andythenorth>I removed it
10:09<norbert79>Or like a car factory
10:09<norbert79>http://img.index.hu/cikkepek/totalcar/magazin/hirek/gmeurope/eisenach/.gdata/cikk/1.jpg
10:09<@planetmaker>Then keep it removed ;-)
10:09<andythenorth>there are valid reasons for it
10:10<@planetmaker>There a valid reasons against it
10:10<andythenorth>norbert79: car factory will come in a FIRS economy, special feature
10:10<Pinkbeast>Foundry?
10:10<andythenorth>got one
10:10<@planetmaker>A car factory could summarize the supply producing industries to one
10:10<norbert79>andythenorth: Neat. Yet I think generic "factory" should really not be there, since it always depends on what you produce
10:11*andythenorth will ponder further
10:11<Pinkbeast>A foundry is how I'd describe a factory that makes random things out of metal
10:11<@Terkhen>isn't that similar to what the machine shop / metal foundry already do?
10:11<Pinkbeast>Oh, but FIRS already has a metal foundry, yes
10:11<@planetmaker>Terkhen: exactly
10:11<norbert79>Pinkbeast: "Random things" - Well, car chasis and springs are also different things, yet two different factories are needed :)
10:11<andythenorth>fwiw, yesterday's logs would show the discussion on this so far
10:12<andythenorth>thereby avoiding boring repetition :)
10:12<@planetmaker>IMHO a car factory could only be alternative to those
10:12<andythenorth>imo FIRS needs another destination for metal
10:12<andythenorth>and there should be a metal-> building materials chain
10:12<@planetmaker>well..., if it's worth to keep in mind, store it in a ticket, andythenorth
10:12<norbert79>What about fridge factory, electrical factory, army material factory, etc etc :)
10:12<andythenorth>it needs to be generic
10:12<andythenorth>if the output cargo is 'goods'
10:12<norbert79>hard to do so, since there is no such thing as a generic factory
10:13<MNIM>there is in OTTD >.>
10:13*andythenorth considered going specific, and adding a rolling mill
10:13<@planetmaker>andythenorth: IMHO we should first create a full diagramme of cargo flow
10:13<norbert79>hmm, maybe 3 buildings within there: 1 office area, 1 producing building, 1 storage area
10:13<@planetmaker>Then we could further discuss things like that
10:13<norbert79>Regarding the layout
10:13<andythenorth>planetmaker: I guess I have one in my head. You can't see in my head?
10:13<andythenorth>:P
10:14<@planetmaker>even when I know them (roughly) in my head, too, it makes for a bad planning basis
10:14<norbert79>draw them, and make pictures of them or let them scanned
10:14<@planetmaker>and for an even worse arguement for or against something
10:14<norbert79>rough drawings always help
10:14<andythenorth>planetmaker: have you played a FIRS trunk game recently?
10:15<@planetmaker>a little, but not much
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10:15<@planetmaker>but it was all playing I did
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10:18<@Belugas>hi
10:19<norbert79>hey there Belugas
10:19<@planetmaker>hullo Belugas
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10:20<andythenorth>planetmaker: I created a ticket
10:20<andythenorth>it can wait
10:21<andythenorth>try a game :)
10:21<@Belugas>hello both :)
10:21*andythenorth remembers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genchi_Genbutsu
10:21<norbert79>hah, this is also familiar to me too
10:22<norbert79>reminds me on LEAN
10:22<andythenorth>lean
10:22<andythenorth>lower case is leaner :P
10:22<norbert79>:P http://www.lean.org
10:22<andythenorth>lower case actually *is* leaner
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10:22<andythenorth>for multiple reasons
10:22<Jabol>Hello.
10:23<norbert79>Hello.
10:23<@planetmaker>hello Jabol
10:23<Jabol>I have a question: When a new version of OpenTTD will come out, will copy&pasting the openttd.cfg file copy the options from the older version to a newer one?
10:24<norbert79>Why? Why don't you jusat use the old file, and it gets feeded by the new options easy
10:24<@Yexo>yes, but if you keep your openttd.cfg in a central directory you don't even have to do that
10:24<Jabol>Ah, so as long as I will not delete my OpenTTD, doing that won't be necessary for newer versions?
10:24<norbert79>yep
10:24<Jabol>Sorry for my English, I know it's challenging to understand.
10:25<norbert79>No, we understand you well
10:25<@planetmaker>Jabol: the readme in section 4.2(?) tells you the directories
10:25<@planetmaker>in windows it'd be something like c:\my files\openttd\ or similar
10:26<@planetmaker>then it can be used by several versions of openttd concurrently even
10:26<norbert79>Basically openttd.cfg files can be kept at two places 1.) in your home directory, under OpenTTD, or 2.) in the root section of thew binary, where your game is. If you choose 2, remember, that all data will be read from there, and every subdirectory will be used from that directory.
10:26<@planetmaker>(like nightly + stable)
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10:27<norbert79>if more, than 1 person is using the game, I would use the default option, the 1.), and keep it there. It will be saved under C:\Doucments and Settings\Your name\My Documents\OpenTTD
10:27<Jabol>Hmm, okay. Thank you for the help. :)
10:28<norbert79>You are welcome.
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10:35<norbert79>Jabol: Something else you forgat to ask Mr. Columbo? :)
10:35<norbert79>;-)
10:35<Jabol>Nah, I just decided to stay here. :)
10:35<norbert79>Good choice :)
10:36<Ammler>brave
10:36<norbert79>Curiosity killed the cat... :)
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>how many times did it do that?
10:43<@Belugas>8 times. after that, the cat is dead
10:44<norbert79>Well one say the 9 lives is a myth, but I have seen cats being hit by car, walking away, and the next day being fine as usual...
10:45<norbert79>and I am off for now.. Later!
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11:34<MNIM>pfooh, just had a major modernization project.
11:34<MNIM>replacing most aircraft, and all stop trains completely
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12:11<@planetmaker>bah... the Josephine utility vessel is not even sufficient to take care of a single fishing ground
12:15<Elukka>the rockall freighter, on the other hand, fulfills all of my rock transport needs
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12:21<Ammler>MNIM: you know, by stopping your ratings will drop drastically
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12:28<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/173108 <-- find the lumber yard ;-)
12:31<Jabol>It is possible to build all industries where you want? For example the refinery?
12:31<Diablo-D3>um? at the top?
12:32<TWerkhoven>some industries are restricted
12:32<TWerkhoven>refinery for instance cannot be built at the centre of the map
12:32<Jabol>I want to build a refinery and oilrigs in a city, also I enabled building industries?
12:32<Jabol>Ignore the ?
12:32<TWerkhoven>refineries have a max distance from map-edge, configurable in advanced settings
12:33<TWerkhoven>oilrigs need to be built in a big enough body of water, not sure what restrictions apply to oil wells
12:34<Jabol>Uh, I meant oilwells
12:35<Rubidium>planetmaker: is it near my mine?
12:36<Elukka>i never understood why the oil industries are restricted to near map edges
12:37<TWerkhoven>i think its to promote oil by tanker-ships, but its just a guess
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: once upon a time the map edge was coast, so the refinery-limit meant "near the coast line". which actually applies to most refineries worldwide
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>it was meant to promote ships from oil rigs to refineries
12:39<Elukka>i se
12:40<Elukka>*see
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>it makes little sense with the new freeform map edges
12:41<Elukka>or oil wells
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>Jabol: the answer to your question is: "no, some industries are restricted to certain locations, but newgrfs can remove these restrictions, or add new ones"
12:44<@planetmaker>Rubidium: I'm afraid that despite prospecting efforts no mines with precious stones have been found
12:45<@planetmaker>hm... 4 year playing and obviously I'm making more money per unit time than I spend...
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13:28<MNIM>Amller: huh, something in that sentence went wrong.
13:28<MNIM>I mean replace/upgrade
13:28<MNIM>no wait, I didn't get it wrong, you did
13:28<MNIM>I mean aircraft, as well as stop-trains
13:33<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/firstest_landscape.png <-- <3 rivers :-)
13:35<Rubidium>that must really be the first landscape ;)
13:35<Rubidium>and yes, there are less than 3 rivers in the screenshot
13:36<@planetmaker>there was no irony... I like how they meander through the landscape
13:37<SpComb>wait, openttd developers actually playing the game?
13:37<@planetmaker>and the one river... only misses one tile where it goes into the sea
13:38-!-KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-72-134.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
13:38<@planetmaker>SpComb: seems I'm successful in misleading the crowd ;-)
13:40<@planetmaker>maybe I'm also only testing all those NewGRFs which I'm (co-)developer of
13:41<@planetmaker>Maybe I'm doing actually both...
13:41-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
13:42<@planetmaker>Hm... I think I like the farms clustering and the gameplay advantage of establishing a local supply distribution centre
13:43-!-KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-72-134.as43234.net] has joined #openttd
13:43<andythenorth>hello
13:44<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22944 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt unfinished/persian.txt welsh.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: latvian - 65 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 33 changes by Peymanpn
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: welsh - 16 changes by kazzie
13:46<@planetmaker>I'm very slow at playing, andythenorth ;-)
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13:46<andythenorth>slow? :P
13:46<@planetmaker>but the game makes for nice screenshots... http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/firstest_03_fmsp_serivce.png
13:46<andythenorth>maybe you need eddi's patch :)
13:46<andythenorth>the 'rewind the year' patch
13:47<@planetmaker>I simply need daylength ;-)
13:47<@Terkhen>:P
13:47<@planetmaker>or I simply decide to ignore the year completely
13:48<@planetmaker>hm... many things can be done well by RV...
13:48<b_jonas>planetmaker: wait, why do the support walls of raised squares look like that?
13:48<b_jonas>what grf is this?
13:48<@planetmaker>Not sure though whether I should have added egrvts2, ogfx+rv and heqs... ;-)
13:49<andythenorth>you'll have a busy buy menu
13:49<@planetmaker>b_jonas: that should default OpenGFX
13:49<@planetmaker>yup
13:50<@planetmaker>it is
13:50<@Terkhen>egrvts and ogfx-rv are mutually exclusive IMO
13:50<@planetmaker>:-) yes, they don't match
13:50<@planetmaker>egrvts vehicles are "better"
13:50<@Terkhen>besides, egrvts vehicles are cheaper and carry more :P
13:50<@planetmaker>yup
13:50<b_jonas>hmm
13:50<@planetmaker>b_jonas: in arctic climate
13:51<@planetmaker>other climates should look different iirc
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13:51<b_jonas>even in arctic it doesn't quite look like that to me
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13:52<@planetmaker>you really mean the normal foundations like for the half-tile rails?
13:52<@planetmaker>and you don't have a too-old OpenGFX?
13:53<b_jonas>I mean both the half-tile rails and the whole tile rails on sloped land
13:53<b_jonas>on your screenshot they look vertically striped
13:53<@planetmaker>they are
13:54<@planetmaker>I don't quite recall whether or when that would have been changed
13:54<b_jonas>wait, I'll try to unload newgrfs
13:55<b_jonas>ah, NOW they're striped
13:55<b_jonas>probably some newgrf I had loaded changed it
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13:56<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/595/ <-- my newgrf list
13:56<b_jonas>no, I get the striped behavior now
13:56<b_jonas>so I need to examine _my_ newgrf list to see what removed the stripes
13:57<@planetmaker>the unversioned NewGRFs are the latest version I have locally, built myself
13:57<@planetmaker>hehe :-) There might be quite some which modify it
13:57<@planetmaker>hm... where did the DWE - author vanish to, btw?
13:58<@Terkhen>real life?
13:59<@planetmaker>probably
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13:59<Rubidium>down the oblivian hole?
13:59<@Terkhen>maybe :P
13:59<@planetmaker>Terkhen: I only used both vehicles sets (ogfx+rv, egrvts2) though to give both a shot at the same time. From a gameplay POV it was kinda clear that it's stupid
13:59<@planetmaker>he, yeah, probably there. Would be a pity...
14:00<@planetmaker>others might feel better there than him ;-)
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14:00<@Terkhen>planetmaker: I thought about giving ogfx-rv a check for egrvts, to adapt its costs accordingly
14:00<@Terkhen>but since they fulfill almost the same roles... it's not worth the effort IMO
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14:01<@planetmaker>Well. It's not too much effort either, I guess. It's just setting two numbers. And I'm sure people will want to combine it no matter what
14:02<@planetmaker>But I'd wait for a more final egrvts2
14:02<b_jonas>hmm, now I'm getting mixed walls: vertically striped ones for half-tile rails but non-striped for full-tile
14:02<@planetmaker>:-D
14:03<@planetmaker>probably an old NewGRF then which doesn't know the half-tile rail foundations yet
14:03<@planetmaker>and only defines the standard ones
14:04*frosch123 bets on brick foundations
14:04*andythenorth bets on horses
14:04<andythenorth>but only occasionally
14:04<frosch123>it supports halftile foundations, but misses some of the defautl foundations for about 4 years
14:04<andythenorth>what did we need to fix?
14:04<andythenorth>oh
14:05<andythenorth>a better way to do vehicle-specific storage than hacking on a cargo or subtype (e.g. regearing, liveries)
14:05<@planetmaker>quak :-)
14:05<frosch123>moin
14:06<b_jonas>it seems the Japanese Landscape replaces the full-tile ones
14:06<@planetmaker>when starting this game it became immediately clear why adding different dock sprites to FIRS makes sense (or is it FISH?)
14:06<@planetmaker>b_jonas: make a bug report then
14:06<@planetmaker>(if you have the newest of that)
14:06<@planetmaker>they actively develop that NewGRF...
14:06<b_jonas>I might not have the newest
14:06<b_jonas>I probably don't
14:06<b_jonas>let me check
14:07<@planetmaker>well... give it a brief check and then do the report :-) yeah
14:07<b_jonas>if I upgrade the newgrfs with the Online Content dialog, will I still be able to play games I started with the old version?
14:07<b_jonas>I don't want to break the game I'm playing
14:08<@Terkhen>the old versions of the NewGRFs will be kept
14:08<b_jonas>ok, thanks
14:08<@Terkhen>so if you load old savegames they will use the old version
14:08<andythenorth>planetmaker: the dock sprites are in CHIPS
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14:08<@planetmaker>oh :-)
14:09<@planetmaker>matches fishing harbour perfectly.
14:09<andythenorth>odd that :O
14:09<b_jonas>nope, it still doesn't replace the half-tile ones but replaces the full-tile ones
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14:09<b_jonas>maybe it doesn't want to support arctic?
14:09<b_jonas>I mean, it's a Japanese set, and Japan doesn't have arctic climate
14:10<@planetmaker>some things are like in real life, though: http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/prestige_bridge.png
14:10<@planetmaker>some towns have too much money for stupid projects.
14:10<@planetmaker>Like that long bridge there
14:10<@planetmaker>Built. And then not connected to the other town
14:11<@planetmaker>b_jonas: I'd bet it's the same in other climates then, too
14:11<b_jonas>however, it doesn't seem like the version has changed
14:11<b_jonas>so this isn't actively developped
14:11<b_jonas>or else I'm confusing something
14:12<@planetmaker>I know for a fact that people are working on the Japanese NewGRFs ;-)
14:12<@planetmaker>it might not progress at a neck-breaking pace, but they work on it
14:12<@planetmaker>so just report it :-) Maybe they'll take care of it in the next release
14:13<b_jonas>I'll test temperate climate first
14:13<b_jonas>also, which was the city station grf some of you recommended the other day?
14:15<frosch123>planetmaker: clearly the bridges was subsidised by the state, while the road was not
14:16<@planetmaker>:-D
14:16<andythenorth>o
14:17<andythenorth>so just how fixed is the cargo limit?
14:17<andythenorth>could 32 be expanded to 64?
14:17-!-|Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO]
14:18<@peter1138>it could
14:18<@peter1138>but there are masks that are 32 bit
14:18<frosch123>no, it cannot. people would get insane :p
14:18<andythenorth>is 48 a power of two?
14:18<b_jonas>andythenorth: no
14:18<@peter1138>they seem to cope with millions of vehicle grfs :S
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14:19<frosch123>anyway, i would guess the limit could be increased to 255 cargos per grf
14:20<Wolf01>hello
14:20<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
14:20<@Terkhen>why do you need 64 cargos? :P
14:20<andythenorth>I don't
14:21<b_jonas>yep, even in temperate that GRF replaces only the full-tile walls
14:21<frosch123>well, i assume andy is more intereseted in making cargos per grf
14:21<frosch123>not globally conflicting
14:22*andythenorth counts how many are in RT3
14:22<b_jonas>ok, now where do I download sources for GRFs so I can find out where to report bugs?
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14:23<frosch123>bananas.openttd.org has links to most grfs it distributes
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14:23<b_jonas>oh, OpenTTD 1.1.3 is out. does it differ from 1.1.3-RC1?
14:23<@planetmaker>yes
14:24<b_jonas>okay, I'll update then
14:27*andythenorth thinks RT3 had about 36 cargos all told
14:27<andythenorth>which is an unusual number
14:27<frosch123>ttd had 12?
14:28<frosch123>or 29 if you count all climates
14:29<andythenorth>a constraint is good
14:29<andythenorth>the 32 cargo limit is one of the few things I haven't complained about :P
14:29<andythenorth>sometimes thought it would be nice to have about 40
14:30<andythenorth>and 3 outputs per industry
14:30<andythenorth>but where would it end? :o :P
14:30<b_jonas>wouldn't that make it more difficult to play?
14:30<andythenorth>follow that argument back, and FIRS doesn't get started in the first place ;)
14:30<b_jonas>can you even invent an industry chain such that there aren't pairs of cargos that feel like they play exactly the same?
14:31<andythenorth>maybe
14:31<andythenorth>anyway, 32 is enough, I'm not even transporting all of the cargos in my current game :P
14:31<@planetmaker>b_jonas: I'm sure one could invent such chain
14:33<b_jonas>hmm, this forum topic is long http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=5358
14:34<b_jonas>I won't read all of it
14:34<@planetmaker>lengthy :-)
14:34<@planetmaker>but... originates in 2003...
14:36<b_jonas>okay, but where do I get the sources?
14:36<b_jonas>or at least something about where I report the bug
14:37<@Terkhen>if you are in dobut, post it at the forum thread itself
14:37<@Terkhen>doubt*
14:38<b_jonas>but the forum thread is long, if I don't read it, I'll most likely just repeat something someone has already posted
14:38<b_jonas>what are these support walls called? I'd at least like to search
14:39<b_jonas>does this forum software allow me to search in this thread only?
14:40<@Terkhen>probably
14:40<b_jonas>I can restrict to a forum, but not to a thread
14:40<@Terkhen>"site:tt-forums.net forum thread title word to look for" <--- if the forum search fails you that's what I would do (in google)
14:41<b_jonas>that could help too, yes
14:44<frosch123>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56672 <- how long will it take for newgrf authors to make their sets disable themself when this one is present? :p
14:48<@planetmaker>b_jonas: but that thread is the japanes set's dev thread. Bugs reports probably should go there
14:49<b_jonas>okay, I'm still searching a bit, then reporting
14:49<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/jpset <-- you find (meanwhile) all Japanes projects here
14:49<b_jonas>thanks
14:49<b_jonas>ah, that one has a tracker
14:49<@planetmaker>basically... all NewGRFs which are open-source are found there... I know none which not
14:51<b_jonas>I still can't see where I can download the source from there
14:51<b_jonas>ah, I found it
14:51<b_jonas>I have to choose a subproject, then Repository
14:51<b_jonas>that is, \http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/jpland/repository
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14:52<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22945 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/persian.txt: -Fix-ish: remove bogus plural bits from Persian
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15:15<andythenorth>planetmaker: has your game triggered any FIRS suggestions yet? :)
15:16<@planetmaker>not sure... maybe one should work on the station rating for fishing grounds
15:16<@planetmaker>but maybe not
15:16<andythenorth>which station rating algorithm are you playing with?
15:16<@planetmaker>one Josephine leaves it at not too bright rating
15:16<@planetmaker>everything default
15:17<@planetmaker>But maybe it just needs a bigger ship doing the fishing
15:17<@planetmaker>but then I wonder what I use the small ships for
15:18<@planetmaker>as such anyway: nothing I can't solve by proper vehicles really
15:18<@planetmaker>thus I'm not sure it should be changed
15:19<andythenorth>interestingly, it's safe to change parameter during gameplay
15:20<frosch123>\o/ hot tea
15:20*planetmaker want, too!
15:20<@planetmaker>:-)
15:22<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22946 /trunk/src/newgrf_engine.cpp: -Fix [FS#4781]: [NewGRF] Crash when accessing vehicle var 44 for a non-front aircraft.
15:23<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22947 /trunk/src/ (vehicle.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Fix: [NewGRF] Do not call CB 32 for disaster, effect vehicles or aircraft shadows/rotors.
15:30*andythenorth ponders
15:31<andythenorth>code, draw, play, eat: pick one?
15:31<Rubidium>andythenorth: code something that codes, draws, plays and eats?
15:32<andythenorth>bit too magical for me
15:33<@planetmaker>my dice told me "draw"
15:33<andythenorth>did they tell you what to draw?
15:35-!-loopcoop [~loopcoop@a-84-21.sc.andrews.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:39<@planetmaker>my dice tell me to draw... river shores and riverslopes. Or paths
15:41<@planetmaker>wrt FIRS they should probably tell 'snow' ;-)
15:41<@planetmaker>or ... maybe... some ground tiles? :-)
15:44<andythenorth>brb
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15:48<Rubidium>you shared him away :(
15:50<@planetmaker>yeah :-(
15:52<Rubidium>hmm, not quite what I wanted to say, but... guess this works as well
15:52<Rubidium>guess he had to draw bedtime stories or so
15:52<@planetmaker>:-) auto-semantic correction worked
15:53<@planetmaker>hehe
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16:22<andythenorth>bah
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16:50<Jabol>Can someone explain to me why military vehicles are destroying industries?
16:50<Jabol>Are they bored or what?
16:50<@Terkhen>good night
16:52<@planetmaker>Jabol: random disaster to spice-up the game
16:55<Jabol>I know, but still I cannot understand.
16:56<Jabol>Why they waste bombs, missiles on random industries.
16:57<Capn_Frink>Target practice in case of UFO attack.
16:57<@planetmaker>Jabol: many things in the game are not realistic - and you now complain about the one of the few realistic aspects? ;-)
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16:59<Jabol>Heh, sometimes I have attacks of nonsense allergy
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17:02<Eddi|zuHause>turn off disasters.
17:03<MNIM>maybe the're enemy bombers?
17:10-!-Capn_Frink is now known as Prof_Frink
17:11<Jabol>B-17 Boomber
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17:31<Eddi|zuHause>exactly. imperialistic bastards!
17:35<Hinrik>is there any way to use bold fonts in openttd?
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes
17:35<Hinrik>how? "small_font = DejaVu Sans Bold" doesn't cut it
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>and "DejaVu Sans, bold"?
17:36<Hinrik>yay, that works
17:36-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
17:36<Jabol>What is the default font OpenTTD is using?
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>fixed sprites
17:37<Jabol>Uh.
17:37<Jabol>You mean "fixedsys"?
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>no
17:37<__ln__>No.
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>hardcoded images
17:37<+glx>he means sprites
17:37<Hinrik>like the original game
17:37<Jabol>Oh...
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>from before fonts were invented
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>(that is exaggerated)
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18:22<Wolf01>'night
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19:23<Eddi|zuHause><planetmaker> and the one river... only misses one tile where it goes into the sea <- i have seen this as well, somehow sometimes rivers end 1 tile before the shore
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---Logclosed Tue Sep 20 00:00:16 2011