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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-21

---Logopened Wed Sep 21 00:00:15 2011
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01:56<@planetmaker>moin
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02:29<norbert79>Morning
02:34<@planetmaker>moin norbert79
02:35<norbert79>Moin moin planetmaker
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03:12<norbert79>planetmaker: http://www.6wunderkinder.com/wunderlist/ - Might be a good thing for your development use :) And it's a German product too...
03:14<@planetmaker>err... what?
03:14<norbert79>It's a to-do list handler, with online functions and synchronizing, and available to almsot all OS
03:14<norbert79>and looks pretty
03:15<@planetmaker>...
03:15<norbert79>planetmaker: I guess this is a "not interested"
03:15<appe>i like waking up phrases containing both "development" and "german".
03:17<@planetmaker>indeed, thanks. I don't need yet another app for managing time. I actually need none
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03:17<appe>+to
03:18<norbert79>planetmaker: Just wanted to show you, I know you guys have lot to do, was just an idea, since it comes with synchronizing features
03:18-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
03:18<appe>by the way, i fail to see any swedish train grf up there
03:18<@planetmaker>my phone is sufficient to keep track of important things
03:18<@planetmaker>which also synchronized ;-)
03:18<@planetmaker>appe: look harder
03:18<norbert79>planetmaker: Alright, I understand, didn't want to push, just show :)
03:18<dihedral>morning
03:18<norbert79>Morning dihedral :)
03:18<appe>i have some decent photos of the swedish x61, x14 and NC trains, and i cant find them in the content?
03:18<appe>:)
03:19<norbert79>appe: I have some terrific pictures on Iveco Stralis, MAN and DAF trucks, but fail to see the content in the GRF'S? :)
03:19<appe>i mean, i wish to contribute if no such thing exists, that is.
03:19<norbert79>Oh, I see
03:19<norbert79>Well, there are lot of documentations available
03:20<norbert79>palettes also
03:20<appe>where do i start? :)
03:20<norbert79>Hmm, wait.. first get grfcodec
03:20<appe>i have no concept of how it's done
03:20<appe>ok
03:20<appe>got wiki?
03:20<norbert79>that's the tool for extracting or packing GRF files
03:20<norbert79>sure, check OpenTTD development pages
03:20<@planetmaker>for writing I'd nowadays much rather suggest nml
03:20<norbert79>yet I also started to develop on my own, yet never finished, but at least I can give you a start to that
03:20<appe>ill try it out
03:21<norbert79>planetmaker: I still see to struggle with NML... But that's maybe just my problem only
03:21<appe>i would like to get the real swedish trains (with the right company colors)
03:21<appe>grey x2k, white, red and yellow x14/61/x
03:21<@planetmaker>I've little idea about the current SwedishTrain set
03:21<norbert79>appe: http://www.openttd.org/en/download-grfcodec - for start
03:21<appe>norbert79: excellent, thank you.
03:21<norbert79>http://wiki.openttd.org/Graphics_Development
03:21<norbert79>here you go
03:22<panna>appe: we need x11 too :)
03:22<panna>if there's not one allready
03:22<norbert79>appe: Here my first test-pictures in TT-Forums. Never got there finishing even one building _-_ :(
03:22<appe>ah, i can manage that
03:22<norbert79>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=49910&start=20
03:23<appe>norbert79: would you mind pasting that link in pm?
03:23<norbert79>done
03:23<appe>thanks
03:23<@planetmaker>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page , http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Main and http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial might be interesting
03:23<appe>panna: x11 is neat.
03:23<appe>planetmaker: ill check it out.
03:23<pjpe>those buildings look kinda fullbright
03:24<norbert79>pjpe: This is how the old block-houses used to look like...
03:24<pjpe>i mean no shading or anything
03:24<pjpe>no pop
03:24<norbert79>pjpe: No, it hasn't got any shadow, but I never said it was finished.
03:24<appe>hm, i havent yet discoverd a grf with new city buildings
03:24<dihedral>^^
03:24<norbert79>pjpe: But the building texture is based on real photo, just minaturized
03:26<norbert79>pjpe: http://www.szekesfehervar.hu/viewer.php?group=70230&image=0 - Here, some real photage from my town
03:26<norbert79>pjpe: http://www.szekesfehervar.hu/_user/0/Image/000Gergo_2010/juniustol/legifotok/legifoto17.jpg - These used to look like the one in my forum entry, now these have been improved, got new painting too
03:26<norbert79>paint
03:27<norbert79>Jeez, this headache is killing me
03:27<pjpe>huh
03:27<pjpe>some of those look full bright too
03:27<pjpe>that's weird
03:27<norbert79>pjpe: Might be your monitor then :))
03:27<norbert79>reduce gamma
03:28<pjpe>my gamma is at 0
03:28<pjpe>i can't see anything
03:28<pjpe>deal with it
03:28<norbert79>I have spent some time analyzing the block houses in Hungary, which was weird, cause some was based on French standard, many Swedish and lots of Soviet
03:29<norbert79>and since we are Hungary, some have been a bit redesigned
03:29<b_jonas>to make a Hungarian houses set, you'll need a way in openttd that houses get progressively ruinier in time
03:30<norbert79>b_jonas: Actually my idea was using a time-limit, so after 2005 houses get renovated
03:30<norbert79>b_jonas: but meanwhile yes, some additions would appear
03:30<@planetmaker>b_jonas: that exists
03:30<norbert79>b_jonas: like side-ads, and GSM antennas on top
03:30<pjpe>openttd detroit mod
03:30<appe>norbert79: coffee, fresh air, naked women and fat food.
03:30<pjpe>watch as your cities crumble as time goes on
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03:31<appe>norbert79: is the solution to your dire situation, my good sir.
03:31<b_jonas>norbert79: yes, but only the office blocks would be renovated, plus some inner city houses would get renovated from the outside but still very bad from the inside (so they wouldn't accept much mail and goods)
03:31<norbert79>appe: Fat food, present. Naked women, have one at home, that's enoughj for me :) Fresh air, yeah, good thinking. Coffee, nah :)
03:31<b_jonas>the other houses need to keep getting worse until they completely self-destruct
03:32<norbert79>b_jonas: I doubt playing around with that would make too much sense, the game itself doesn't consider the circumstances that real either
03:32<appe>norbert79: :)
03:32<b_jonas>sure
03:32<norbert79>Besides, OpenTTD is no Simcity, despite the idea is good :)
03:32<appe>our employees are horrible with painkillers
03:32<b_jonas>oh, and of course towns would like building all kinds of houses to river banks where they soon get flooded
03:32<appe>and ive developed a ass whipe attitude towards it
03:33<norbert79>b_jonas: Ehm, look, this isn't about simulating all kind of things, not even mentioning flooding doesn't only ocur in Hungary, despite the myths :)
03:33<b_jonas>I don't think it's _only_ in Hungary
03:33<norbert79>b_jonas: Also not to forget, that this needs lots of drawing and lots of coding too... If you feel joining, I would feel charmed. :)
03:34<norbert79>b_jonas: Yes, but going into that much of details would just make the progress go slower, and there won't be too much visible of it within the game
03:34<b_jonas>sure
03:34<norbert79>b_jonas: So no need to overkill :)
03:34<b_jonas>and of course, I don't want a realistic simulator
03:35<@Terkhen>good morning
03:35<norbert79>Good morning Terkhen
03:35<@planetmaker>hello Terkhen
03:35<appe>droby'djen!
03:38<norbert79>and I wonder, how can an application become 82 MB big, while extracted it's just around 74 MB...
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03:48<appe>speaking of megabytes
03:48<appe>i was wondering about some irregularities in big openttd games
03:49<@Terkhen>what kind of irregularities?
03:49<appe>for some reason, it doesnt cache much data in the ram. when i play a big map (where my computer starts to struggle) it reads more from the hard drive then the ram.
03:49<appe>i guess there is some logic behind that.
03:49<appe>but it felt odd.
03:49*planetmaker compresses random noise. Seems compression is good, if ration < 1 ;-)
03:49<@Terkhen>hmm... to my knowledge everything is stored in RAM
03:50<@planetmaker>for a running OpenTTD? I'm quite sure of that.
03:50<@planetmaker>would be insane, if not
03:50<appe>hm, ok.
03:50<@Terkhen>savegames are essentially snapshots of the game state in that moment
03:51<appe>how much ram does a normal ottd game use? are we speaking in ten or hundreds?
03:51<appe>(or googolplex)
03:51<appe>since i could never see it jump over 100MB, but the hard drive read was at >30MB/minute.
03:52<appe>wich halted when the game was paused.
03:52<pjpe>low hundreds i'd say
03:52<norbert79>How often you save your company?
03:52<norbert79>I mean every month? 2? 6 months?
03:52<@Terkhen>@calc 2048 * 2048 * 72
03:52<@DorpsGek>Terkhen: 301989888
03:53<pjpe>72?
03:53<@Terkhen>that only for terrain (in bits)
03:53<pjpe>why 72
03:53<norbert79>@calc pi
03:53<@DorpsGek>norbert79: 3.14159265359
03:53<pjpe>oh in bits
03:53<appe>norbert79: standard setting, i guess.
03:53<appe>havent changed the autosave
03:53<pjpe>a 1024 by 1024 map should be 9 mb in memory if each tile is 9 bytes
03:53<appe>@calc 301989888 / 8
03:53<@DorpsGek>appe: 37748736
03:53<@Terkhen>even playing a 2048 x 1024 map would result in a big improvement
03:54<appe>the size of the map doesnt really effect the hard drive read as much as the "information" does.
03:54<appe>moving trains, displaying data, etc.
03:54<appe>using the map is horrendous
03:55<@Terkhen>sorry, using the map for what?
03:57<appe>zooming out the map with the vechicle view on makes my laptop go boom.
03:57<pjpe>well yeah
03:57<pjpe>you have to draw just so much more
03:58<norbert79>appe: Ever thought about the possibility, that your graphic card driver would have some issues? I used to have similar issues, but since moved to ubuntu Lucid, the Intel driver works fine.
03:59<norbert79>What laptop you are using, what GFX card does it have? Some older laptops might have issues, like older Pentium 3 or 4 laptops
03:59<pjpe>turn off full animation and full detail
03:59<pjpe>and maybe hide buildings
04:00<norbert79>and I would also check the hard-drive's fragmentation too
04:07<Elukka>http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/0/6/0/8060.1249074816.jpg
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04:07<Elukka>british locomotives in a DB red
04:07<Elukka>how weird
04:08<norbert79>Looks like Schenker bought it and recoloured based on the german DB standard
04:08<norbert79>hah, interesting
04:09<Elukka>they bought a company and rebranded it as DB Schenker Rail UK, at some point
04:09<appe>norbert79: i guess thats possible. ill try the same savegame on a new pc today.
04:09<norbert79>Elukka: I see
04:09<@planetmaker>hm... funny how lifestock on CHIP stations is displayed as crates ;-)
04:09<norbert79>appe: sure, do so... Since I doubt it's related directly to the game.
04:13<appe>:)
04:22<Elukka>animal treatment in ttd world is appalling
04:24<norbert79>why?
04:26<Elukka>joke, read planetmaker's line :P
04:26<V453000>:D
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04:28<norbert79>...aw.. got it...
04:28<norbert79>well, we all end up in a box anyway... :)
04:29<norbert79>some in a more expensive box, some don't :)
04:30<V453000>http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20419525/lv.png this is how you treat animals! :)
04:31<norbert79>V453000: A basket I see there? :))
04:31<@peter1138>what??
04:31<norbert79>hard to identify the object :)
04:32<norbert79>I see the animal's head, but the basket it's in is a bit hard to id :)
04:32<V453000>well, that is .. a wagon :D
04:32<norbert79>lol, the animal riding a wagon.. Nice :)
04:43<@planetmaker>V453000: I get more and more the feeling that the preferred climate really should be toyland ;-)
04:43<@planetmaker>lovely wagons!
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04:44<V453000>well, maglev indeed is ... weird
04:44<V453000>I hope to make the rail vehicles more sane
04:44<V453000>(not by much though :P)
04:46<V453000>planetmaker: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1936/MaglevWagons_Flatbed01_05_fixedstrawberries.png including yellow duckies for toys :P
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04:47<@planetmaker>:-)
04:48<V453000>because who cares really about base set dependance, on team servers players choose as a team and on stable-ish servers, one mostly looks at his stuff so chooses appropriately
04:51<norbert79>I realized yesterday why I don't like the Toyland Scenery that much in *TTD... One can get easily lost within the scenery.
04:52<V453000>matter of getting used to really
04:52<pjpe>toyland has nice buildings
04:52<@peter1138>also it makes your eyes bleed
04:52<V453000>I have no problems with toyland nowadays
04:52<pjpe>(in the original sprites)
04:52<pjpe>but completely shit landscape
04:52<norbert79>I dilike the 'trees'
04:52<norbert79>dislike
04:53<pjpe>yes
04:53<pjpe>those are quite bad
04:53<pjpe>but the damn grid they have in default sprites
04:53<pjpe>is just so awful
04:53<norbert79>I kinda like it
04:53<norbert79>:)
04:53<pjpe>it's like one of those optical illusion epiosodes
04:53<pjpe>that you have to play with
04:53<norbert79>My eyes just hurt from the trees
04:53<pjpe>and then when you have the trees with the weird square grid things
04:54<norbert79>pjpe: Hah, guess you never loved the alpha-channel grid using GIMP then :)
04:54<norbert79>where the transparent things are the ones with the blocks :)
04:59<b_jonas>luckily that's configurable
04:59<V453000>dont know, I consider TTD toyland a masterpiece in its originality :)
04:59<V453000>and after playing it for some time it gets feasible
04:59<V453000>or even enjoyable
05:00<norbert79>V453000: Sure, but I have some issues with some of the graphics, and it lacks lot's of 'vehicles' :)
05:00<norbert79>there are only 3 planes available after 2050
05:00<norbert79>Yet I would imagine tons of variations, like the flying train from Back to the Future :))
05:02<Elukka><norbert79> pjpe: Hah, guess you never loved the alpha-channel grid using GIMP then :)
05:02<Elukka>oh my god that.
05:02<Elukka>it was terrible
05:02<Elukka>photoshop might do it too? dunno, if it did i swiftly changed it
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05:07<@Terkhen>A NewGRF extending toyland would be nice
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05:09<dihedral>extending it to a temperate landscape
05:09<dihedral>uh - how about an ascii landscape?
05:10<@Terkhen>no, extending toyland itself :P
05:11<norbert79>dihedral: Lol
05:11<norbert79>dihedral: Geeky idea
05:11<dihedral>:-P
05:11<dihedral>i still like the ascii star wars telnet server ^^
05:12<@peter1138>whatever happened to the "comic" set?
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>a serious case of reallife
05:12<@Terkhen>development halted IIRC
05:13<dihedral>peter1138, that would be with planetmaker
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05:14<XknarfieX>Hi All...
05:14<@Terkhen>hi XknarfieX
05:14<XknarfieX>I hope someone can give me some advise!
05:14<XknarfieX>I have a problem with my dedicated server...
05:15<b_jonas>Terkhen: ins't there already one? like changing toyland to moon or mars or something, keeping the industry chain but renaming it
05:15<XknarfieX>Its running on a linux server, and I change the permissions to 777 for openttd.cfg so that the server can write it (to generate a new map every time)
05:16<XknarfieX>but for some reason it's coming up with the same map every time I restart the server...
05:16<@Terkhen>b_jonas: that removes toyland, I'm talking about something to improve it
05:16<@Terkhen>more vehicles and so on
05:16<b_jonas>oh
05:16<@Terkhen>XknarfieX: what command do you use for starting the server?
05:16<XknarfieX>openttd -D
05:16<b_jonas>so you want quite the opposite: keep the style of skin for toyland but change the playability to something like temperate?
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05:19<@Terkhen>b_jonas: kind of, it does not need to be identical to temperate... just as diverse as temperate, but still true to toyland style
05:20<@Terkhen>XknarfieX: hmm... I'm not sure but I think that should be regenerating the seed every time
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05:21<XknarfieX>Terkhen: It's pretty strange, because I have 3 instances running on the same server, and the other 2 instances are running just fine with the map regenerating every time!
05:21<@Terkhen>all of them use the same openttd.cfg file?
05:21<XknarfieX>Terkhen: tried to copy the config file from the other instances, but still doesn't work
05:21<XknarfieX>Terkhen: no
05:21<XknarfieX>Terkhen: 3 seperate
05:22<XknarfieX>very strange, but it looks like the openttd instance saves the openttd.cfg and in that process changes the file permissions to read only
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05:22<@planetmaker>I'm sure openttd doesn't change file permissions
05:23<b_jonas>Terkhen: right
05:23<XknarfieX>even not when the server itself writes back the openttd.cfg file?
05:23<@planetmaker>does it, by chance, use a different cfg - maybe in another path of the different search pathes
05:23<@planetmaker>sure, the server rewrites the cfg, but...
05:23<XknarfieX>planetmaker: no, it uses the right path since I don't have any other files with that server name in it!
05:23<b_jonas>well, I don't know, I kind of agree with pjpe in that the graphics is kind of distracting. both the ttd and the ottd graphics.
05:24<b_jonas>but then, I haven't played that much with it.
05:24-!-XknarfieX is now known as X-Frank-X
05:24<@Terkhen>I would use openttd -c to be sure
05:25<X-Frank-X>Terken: ok, will try that one
05:25<X-Frank-X>I can also see the -x option
05:25<@planetmaker>X-Frank-X: where's that cfg relative to the binary?
05:25<X-Frank-X>maybe have to try that one... just thought maybe you guys had this before!
05:25<X-Frank-X>Planetmaker: In the same directory as the binary
05:25<@planetmaker>hm
05:26<@planetmaker>but as it doesn't happen with your other installs it must be something very specific to that one install
05:26<X-Frank-X>indeed
05:26<X-Frank-X>pretty frustrating :-P
05:26<X-Frank-X>lol
05:26<@planetmaker>find out the difference
05:26-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
05:26<andythenorth>moin
05:26<@Terkhen>hi andythenorth
05:26<@planetmaker>differently called? different versions? etc
05:27<@planetmaker>hi andythenorth
05:27<X-Frank-X>I just tried to start all over... recompile it from the start with the --enable-dedicated option and fill the directory of the first server from step 1
05:27<@planetmaker>"fill the directory"?
05:27<X-Frank-X>but strangly enough the permissions still get changed
05:27<X-Frank-X>yeah, I mean the graphic files, data dir, gm dir, etc.
05:28<@planetmaker>why not use the global dir? ~/.openttd ?
05:28<X-Frank-X>because I was troubleshooting ;-)
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05:28<X-Frank-X>anyway, appreciate your help, thanks... will try to find out the differences!
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05:35<panna>i want to pave the moon. is there a map for that?
05:41<appe>i was wondering, how come we can't generate map of (near) any given size?
05:42<appe>a ten by ten thousand map would be fantastic.
05:42<@peter1138>because
05:42<@peter1138>there's a patch for it
05:43<@peter1138>it's still limited to powers of 2 though, of course
05:43<appe>panna: it's you!
05:43<panna>:)
05:43<appe>peter1138: sounds logical.
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05:46<@planetmaker>appe:
05:46<@planetmaker>@calc 10000*10000*9 / 1024**3
05:46<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 0.838190317154
05:46<@planetmaker>^ map size scales badly ;-)
05:47<@planetmaker>838 MByte for a 10k**2 map...
05:47<appe>jeez, that much?
05:47<@peter1138>@calc 2048*2048*9/1024**3
05:47<@DorpsGek>peter1138: 0.03515625
05:47<@peter1138>35MB for 2048x2048
05:47<appe>ah, i didnt really consider the scale of things
05:48<appe>i was kind of hoping it to be linear
05:48<appe>:D
05:48<@peter1138>and that's just the map, let alone town & industry information
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>you probably get problems around 3GB
05:48<@planetmaker>it is linear...
05:48<@peter1138>it is linear
05:48*peter1138 pokes Eddi|zuHause with a 64bit system
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>linear in number of tiles
05:48<appe>neat
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>means quadratic in map edge length
05:49<appe>though
05:49<appe>how does openttd handle stuff that arent monitored?
05:49<@peter1138>no such concept
05:49<@peter1138>openttd is not minecraft ;)
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>it should be!
05:50<@peter1138>no!
05:50<@planetmaker>:-D Vehicles stop moving immediately, if not watched.
05:50<@planetmaker>Great concept. Lazy drivers
05:50-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C2B0.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:50<@peter1138>industries stop consuming/producing
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>implement openttd in a minecraft world. you already have rails
05:50<appe>that is, stuff thats running (ten million trains, for instance) but is not activly seen on the monitor
05:50<@peter1138>it's still running
05:50<@peter1138>it's just... not drawn...
05:51<Eddi|zuHause>appe: if you close your eyes, does the world stop turning?
05:51<V453000>omg :D
05:51<appe>Eddi|zuHause: of course not. im talking about stuff being processed to what power.
05:51<appe>Eddi|zuHause: stuff in the real world is always processed without my eyes, on a computer it isnt (or doesnt have to be).
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>appe: it is not drawn. everything else is still calculated
05:52<appe>and dont get me started on schrödinger effects.
05:52<V453000>^
05:52<appe>:).
05:52<V453000>or would you like to make money only from the trains that you see arriving? :D
05:52<appe>Eddi|zuHause: i see
05:52<V453000>for example :D
05:52<appe>hehe
05:53<appe>though, with that in mind i guess a ten by ten thousand map would not be that evil to a decent computer.
05:53<@peter1138>well, try it ;)
05:53<appe>i will!
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>take the bigger maps patch, and start an 8kx8k map with lots of ECS industries
05:54<appe>"This patch enable to play on maps up to 262144 high and up to 262144 wide, although not that large in both dimensions at once."
05:54<V453000>it will definitely be evil for you though :) I get lost in 1x1k
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>then click on fast forward, and see what happens
05:54<appe>jeeez.
05:54<@peter1138>although you can only go for 8192 or 16384
05:54<V453000>ecs takes more CPU Eddi|zuHause ?
05:55<@peter1138>yes, it doesn't more stuff
05:55<appe>@calc 262144*262144*9 / 1024**3
05:55<@DorpsGek>appe: 576
05:55<appe>oops
05:55<appe>what is ECS?
05:55<@peter1138>errr
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: it's supposed to have gotten better over the past years...
05:55<@peter1138>yes, it does more stuff
05:55<V453000>hm :)
05:55<@peter1138>but then most newgrf stuff causes more stuff to happen
05:56<@peter1138>funky station graphics? slows you down
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: but last time i tried, a 2kx2k map was unplayable even without any vehicles
05:56<@peter1138>especially those variables that do loops
05:56<appe>oh shit. why on earth havent i found this earlier.
05:56<V453000>:D
05:57<V453000>I guess that isnt even funny :D
05:57<appe>you guys keep suprising me.
05:58<Eddi|zuHause>appe: problem with "modern computers" is they are multicore, and openttd is not (really) multithreaded, so having a computer less than 5 years old doesn't offer any improvement anymore
06:09<@planetmaker>those who make openttd somewhat supporting multicore win an award
06:09<@planetmaker>while keeping multiplayer capability that is
06:10<norbert79>And the award will be being able playing the game on multicore :))
06:10<@Terkhen>and keeping the code understandable :P
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>well, one idea could be to introduce "countries", each having a (rectangular, power-of-2 sized) map piece assigned
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>then each "country" could run on one core, like any current game. and special pieces to allow vehicles travelling between countries
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>kinda like SC4 cities, only that all cities actually run in parallel
06:12<Eddi|zuHause>and synchronized
06:13<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: For that I think using larger timescales would be necessary.
06:13<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Game is already fast
06:13<Elukka>http://media.riemurasia.net/albumit/mmedia/lp/8kv/hggt/3175/851611125.jpg
06:13<Elukka>utterly unrelated
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: no, total size of the map needn't be different. just instead of a 512x1024 map you could have 8 256x256 maps
06:14<norbert79>Elukka: LOL
06:14<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/596/ <-- do I something wrong? This NewGRF won't show in the NewGRF list...
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06:16<norbert79>Spritesets for OpenTTD >= 1.1.4 (r22923) ?
06:17<norbert79>Not <=?
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: that versioning seems wrong. it should say "> 1.2.0 alpha (rxxxx)"
06:18<@Terkhen>yes, I don't think that r22923-r22925 should be backported
06:18<norbert79>Not using nightly, so you are all probably right :)
06:18<@Terkhen>specially because to my knowledge no NewGRF is using r22925 already
06:20<@planetmaker>Terkhen: it's about r22918
06:20<@planetmaker>which should IMHO be backported
06:20<@planetmaker>so, yes wrong version
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=958164#p958164 <-- anyone interested in getting this to trunk? in the past weeks i have seen several places where it would be useful. the extra callback info i mean, not (yet) the var60+ stuff
06:21<@Terkhen>I agree, r22918 should be backported
06:21<norbert79>what's so special about 22918?
06:22<@Terkhen>@commit 22918
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>@openttd log 22918
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>@openttd commit 22918
06:22<@Terkhen>lazy DorpsGek!
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>@damdorpsgek
06:22<Eddi|zuHause>+n
06:22<@planetmaker>http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/rev/9f466debb3be <-- Eddi|zuHause
06:23<norbert79>Ah, I see
06:23<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: is that patch related to http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Secondary_Related_Objects ?
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>ah, right
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: not really
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: it's for things that do special stuff with the sprite on the map, that look weird if it's also done in the vehicle list. e.g. planes taking off, vehicles tilting, other stuff
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: or "invisible engines" being made visible in the gui
06:25<@Terkhen>hmm... I'm not understanding what it does then :P
06:26<Eddi|zuHause>currently a newgrf can provide special sprites for the depot window, and for the purchase window, but not for other guis like vehicle details or vehicle lists
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>so vehicles that display special sprites like av8 planes taking off change their sprites both on the map and in the gui
06:27<@planetmaker>ok, I was stupid... I used a grfID which obviously I used before ;-)
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that's easier than one thinks at first ;)
06:28<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: use gui.newgrf_show_old_versions (or similar) setting
06:28<@planetmaker>I do
06:28<@planetmaker>but using another grfID made it visible
06:29<Eddi|zuHause>hm, but then it shouldn't matter. as long as the md5sum is different, it should show up
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06:30<@planetmaker>yes, so I thought, too...
06:30<@planetmaker>it's a bit mysterious
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06:43<appe>Eddi|zuHause: i know, and that sucks. my i5 copes well with openttd, but when the maps get bigger and bigger..
06:43<appe>i fail to see why openttd isnt already multicore
06:43<@peter1138>tee hee
06:43<Elukka>turns out it's really hard to convert something to multicore after it's done
06:43<@peter1138>same reason most games aren't
06:44<Elukka>most commercial games these days certainly are
06:44<Elukka>but i've never seen multithreading being patched into a game
06:45<appe>i see
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>most modern games that support multicore have been rewritten from scratch, instead of using a 17 year old game engine
06:45<appe>i guess it would involve to much reconstruction for it to be worth it - at least at the moment.
06:46<appe>maybe it's time to ditch the game engine, then?
06:46<@Terkhen>either they are completely rewritten or use multicore only for non core stuff
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>there was one attempt at making multicore support in the past
06:46<@planetmaker>it should be possible to skip an action0, shouldn't it?
06:46<appe>that failed?
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>the result was 20% speed improvement on multi core systems
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>and 10% speed loss on single core
06:47<@Terkhen>how was it implemented?
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>dunno, i was not involved
06:47<Elukka><appe> maybe it's time to ditch the game engine, then?
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>possibly Rubidium or TrueBrain would know
06:47<Elukka>who's gonna code a new one?
06:47<@peter1138>it could probably be done quite well if it wasn't for network play...
06:48<@planetmaker>network play is the culprit
06:49<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I know of no such thing :)
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>i remember the english lesson when we learned the word "dunno"... even the bad students quickly picked it up :)
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: you wouldn't remember your own nick if it wasn't written down next to each of your lines :p
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06:50<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: who am I again?
06:50<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, but then darkvater got confused and always wrote "donnu" instead :)
06:50<@peter1138>TrueBrain, you are TrueLight
06:50<@peter1138>your main task in openttd is to annoy tron
06:51<@peter1138>(it's a simple task, mind you)
06:51<TrueBrain>ah; I always thought he was there to annoy me; there it went wrong
06:51<@peter1138>hm
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06:59<Eddi|zuHause>appe: anyway, if you want to try a multicore approach, try something like this: 1) change the architecture of the game so instead of foreach(vehicle) { pathfinder(); move() } it does foreach(vehicle) { pathfinder }; foreach(vehicle){move}, 2) spawn a thread for each pathfinder call, lock write access to the map during this time. if all pathfinder threads resolved, do the movement.
06:59-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
06:59*andythenorth ponders unifying iron ore and bauxite
06:59<andythenorth>hmm
06:59<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: and then what if 2 entries move through a red light?
06:59<andythenorth>could have an 'ore mine'
07:00<andythenorth>producing 'metal ore'
07:00<andythenorth>saves a cargo
07:00<andythenorth>but...
07:00<andythenorth>nah
07:00<@Terkhen>andythenorth: read the logs :P
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: movement is not parallelised
07:00<@Terkhen>bauxite was introduced because the metal chain was boring
07:00<@planetmaker>yeah
07:00<andythenorth>in ECS? Or FIRS?
07:00<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: so red lights are caught at that point
07:00<appe>i actually though you were talking chemistry :(
07:00<@Terkhen>FIRS
07:00<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: even so; one of the two cant move; so what does he do
07:00<@Terkhen>and it has a different role than iron ore, at least in FIRS
07:00<@planetmaker>unifying that leads to the road at which end we have 'primary stuff' and 'secondary stuff'
07:00<andythenorth>there's also a time offset
07:01<andythenorth>bauxite is C20th
07:01<@Terkhen>time offset?
07:01<andythenorth>iron ore is 'all time'
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: one pseudo-random will stop.
07:01<@Terkhen>oh
07:01<andythenorth>so you get a new chain to service
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: that is not different to the current behaviour
07:01<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: my point being, I like your idea, but there are some corner cases to clean up for that ;)
07:01<@Terkhen>that sounds nice :P
07:01<TrueBrain>it is fully deterministic atm Eddi|zuHause :)
07:01<@Terkhen>I never play really old games
07:01<TrueBrain>the Train with the lowest ID gest through
07:01<@Terkhen>s/old/ancient/
07:01*andythenorth will now go back to work :P
07:01<TrueBrain>it is the reason 1 train can be waiting FOR EVER at a block
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07:02<@planetmaker>rrrright
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: yes, but that is outside the scope of this patch
07:02<@Terkhen>this guy is getting more complicated to talk with over time :P
07:02<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: no, it is inside. Not the red light issue, but the fact that 2 trains have a path through it :)
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07:02<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: the problem is, by the time he gets back, he has made up his mind :p
07:02<TrueBrain>you will have to solve that first ;)
07:03<@Terkhen>and in a random way usually
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: without hearing the arguments you would have brought up
07:03<@Terkhen>yes
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: that is unsolvable unless you implement the concept of a "signal block", which can then act as an arbiter
07:04<@planetmaker>@base 10 16 22918
07:04<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 5986
07:04<appe>Eddi|zuHause: now you are talking code with me, and im sorry to say - that's jiberish to me :)
07:04<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: it doesnt have to be solved as such, but it has to be protected if you paralize it ;)
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: as movement is not parallelised, it's a non-issue
07:05<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I am afraid if you look at the current code, it would kinda disagree ;)
07:05<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: hence point 1) :)
07:06<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: and which is what I am saying: some corner cases to take care of :)
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, my point was that it a) requires some major architectural restructuring, and b) even then only touches a very small part of the game, so performance gain would be limited.
07:11<TrueBrain>and in time it will just run into the same issue
07:11<TrueBrain>just at a bigger number
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>the "countries" idea might be more viable. you have some depot-like structure at map borders that makes sure that the vehicle can be transfered from one country to the other without race conditions occuring
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>if you keep the current map structure, you would have a stripe of 2 void tiles between countries, which can make sure you have no effects like catchment areas that overlap the border
07:16<TrueBrain>catchment area is a bit bigger than 2 :P
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but you can cancel out search on void tiles
07:17<TrueBrain>but head-to-head patch solves those things already :P
07:17<appe>i guess that's a good idea, since it's rather hard to fill up 256x256 with stuff that (so badly) affects a single core on a new cpu.
07:17<appe>that will also make the game economical
07:17<appe>since most cores will never max out
07:17<appe>i guess
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's what is currently done already, otherwise you'd get catchment area at the opposite map border
07:18<@planetmaker>hm... nice http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56701
07:19<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: ah, you want vehicles leaving one openttd games and entering another game?
07:19<b_jonas>hmm
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: basically yes
07:19<b_jonas>still, how would routing work?
07:19<TrueBrain>hihi, I still have an MMO concept for OpenTTD :P Lolz :)
07:20<b_jonas>would you have to explicitly add the border as a waypoint?
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: pathfinder ends on the map border, the transfer point would have to be an explicit order
07:20<b_jonas>hmm
07:20<b_jonas>possible
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, lunch
07:20<b_jonas>it's probably still very hard to implement
07:20<b_jonas>but at least theoretically sounds possible
07:21<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: anyway, just know that multicore kills every multiplayer game; less and less clients will be able to keep up with the server, when they run out of cores when the server doesnt :P
07:21<b_jonas>would also allow some cheats I guess
07:21<TrueBrain>(Already happens btw, when CPU MHz runs out :P)
07:22<@peter1138>peak cpu, just like peak oil
07:23<panna>don't worry, we've got plenty of cpu's
07:24<appe>i have an idea
07:24<appe>a monumental one
07:24<TrueBrain>plural of cpu is cpus, not cpu's. :P
07:24<appe>why on earth arent the prices of goods tied to real time stock market values?
07:24<panna>thanks
07:24<appe>that would be fantastic on a europa map
07:26<panna>pcs aren't realtime :PpPpp
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07:27<appe>"dont ship coal from france, they went bear all night".
07:28<Elukka>would you want to have to reorder your trains all the time?
07:29<Elukka>truebrain, does openttd run peer to peer or server/client?
07:29<TrueBrain>how would that make sense?
07:29<Elukka>i was going to say peer to peer games usually seem to run at the speed of the slowest peer, but then i realized i don't even know which architecture it uses
07:30<TrueBrain>I know of no games that use p2p as their network infastructure
07:30<TrueBrain>(none that work anyway)
07:32<Elukka>hunh. i thought a lot of games do
07:32<TrueBrain>please do name me one :)
07:32<Elukka>how else does it work so that the original host can leave and the game keeps going?
07:32<Elukka>a fair amount of games can do that
07:32<TrueBrain>the only games that support migration these days is CoD (most known I guess). It works by recollecting the information of the clients and making 1 client a server
07:33<Elukka>i could have misunderstood it, then
07:33<TrueBrain>it is also a really crappy method btw; dont know if you played these CoD versions :)
07:33<TrueBrain>randomly you are moved to antoher server, network bandwidth shit issues .. ugh ..
07:34<TrueBrain>I miss dedicated servers in those games :)
07:34<TrueBrain>Elukka: problem with the p2p concept is both bandwidth, and validation
07:34<Elukka>nope, but i've played multiple games where it doesn't make any difference if the host leaves, it just continues seamlessly
07:34<TrueBrain>name one ;)
07:34<Elukka>(nope to having not played CoD)
07:34<Elukka>homeworld 2 pops to mind
07:35<TrueBrain>CoD is one of the bigger tittles that tried this method. I so badly hope they never do it again ... it sucks
07:35<TrueBrain>the same as: you are thrown in a server we say you will play on
07:35<Elukka>actually... most RTS games
07:35<TrueBrain>ffs, I just want to join a server of my liking!
07:35<Elukka>"All of Relic's games have been peer to peer networking models (the original Homeworld 2 was apparently Client Server based, but most of that code was thrown out)."
07:36<TrueBrain>I truly wonder what their idea of p2p is ..
07:36<TrueBrain>the problem is, what if you have a modified client in your midst
07:36<TrueBrain>who do you trust?
07:36<TrueBrain>what movement is real?
07:36<Elukka>in practice it's easy to tell if one player is host or if it's peer to peer
07:36<TrueBrain>does client A now see unit B at place C, or D?
07:36<Elukka>because the host will have 0 ping
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>the first problem is (not) open ports
07:37<Elukka>i dunno how it's validated, seems to work though
07:37<TrueBrain>so I know of games that tried the p2p concept, but they all failed so freakinglish hard
07:37<TrueBrain>then again, for years I could cheat the Valve anti cheat mechanisms :p Hell, I am the reason they implemented some checks :D (ghehe)
07:37<Elukka>'all of relic's games' certainly didn't
07:38<TrueBrain>that they might use 'peer to peer' (lets leave in the middle how they interperter that term), doesnt mean it works ;)
07:39<Elukka>they certainly work
07:39<TrueBrain>anyway, to come back to the concept of it: we have seen a big movement towards client-abused-as-host (in p2p or s/c models), but slowly more games are moving away from this again
07:39<Elukka>"Despite these limitations this model naturally suits RTS games and it still lives on today in games like “Command and Conquer”, “Age of Empires” and “Starcraft”."
07:39<TrueBrain>it is concidered to be VERY annoying by players
07:39<Elukka>those games also all work :P
07:39<TrueBrain>Starcraft doesnt use p2p for sure
07:39<TrueBrain>most C&C neither
07:39<TrueBrain>AoE also uses S/C
07:39<Elukka>really?
07:40<TrueBrain>(the fact you have to click Start Host and Join Host, gives that away)
07:40<Elukka>i didn't think much any RTS used server/client
07:40<Elukka>well, world in conflict does
07:40<Elukka>that's just UI stuff
07:40<TrueBrain>FreeCIV
07:40<b_jonas>TrueBrain: isn't that because startcraft is optimized for just two players?
07:40<TrueBrain>b_jonas: sssttt :P
07:40<TrueBrain>most of these games are :)
07:40<Elukka>someone has to create a game room and others have to join it, doesn't matter what the underlying code does to network it
07:40<Elukka>every game that uses peer to peer networking still has a "host game" button
07:40<TrueBrain>Elukka: what some of thse games have is 'autosense' server. They figure out who will be best to host it
07:41<Elukka>and i'm pretty sure CoD is server/client
07:41<Elukka>they just took control away from the player
07:41<TrueBrain>Elukka: I am 100% sure CoD is S/C
07:41<TrueBrain>I told you that already
07:41<TrueBrain>they use migration techniques
07:41<Elukka>ah, right
07:41<TrueBrain>to move the host when the host goes down
07:41<TrueBrain>which is the worst idea ever
07:41<TrueBrain>then again CoD is just to get money from you, not to invent the industry (like CoD1 did)
07:42<Elukka>http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1517789
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07:42<Elukka>this paper says starcraft uses peer to peer
07:42<TrueBrain>(as seriously, BlackOps costs 60 euro, + 15 euro per 4 maps, and there are 5 packs now ... 135 euro for a game + 20 maps? REALLY?!)
07:42<norbert79>TrueBrain: A bargain, isn't it? :)
07:42<@peter1138>heh
07:42<TrueBrain>that people buy it, I don't understand
07:42<TrueBrain>in the old days maps were FREE
07:43<TrueBrain>I had 1000 maps to play on
07:43<norbert79>I am also for freedom, being able to create own stuff and such
07:43<norbert79>aye
07:43<@peter1138>doom was awesome
07:43<Elukka>and starcraf is so popular if it was possible to cheat through its peer to peer networking it'd have been done years ago
07:43<TrueBrain>Elukka: and here is a conflict in the term p2p. That is not p2p. That is peer to peer, sure, but has nothing to do with distribution. It is a client/client model (2 players)
07:43<@peter1138>i loved making wads
07:43<norbert79>Doom introduced that, yet I was a BUILD-er with Duke Nukem and Shadow Warrior
07:43<@peter1138>but damn that compiler thingy was slow :)
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>i really hate games where you cannot create random maps
07:43<Elukka>what's your definition of p2p?
07:43<TrueBrain>Elukka: p2p suggests distribution over clients
07:43<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Take your mouse, close yolur eyes, do stuff, and be suprised! :)
07:44<TrueBrain>no server, a cloud of clients, all interconnected with their closest
07:44<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: There you go, random map!
07:44<TrueBrain>Torrent as the biggest example
07:44<@peter1138>technically openttd could handle server switching
07:44<TrueBrain>Starcraft is a basic client/client model
07:44<Elukka>in these games there is no server hosting the game
07:44<TrueBrain>they are all servers
07:44<@peter1138>all clients should have exactly the same game state, after all
07:44<TrueBrain>and there is the difference in concept
07:44<Eddi|zuHause>the worms 3d random maps were all weird
07:44<TrueBrain>peter1138: ghehe; yes :P
07:44<@peter1138>but it would still be S/C with switching
07:44<Elukka>they're all servers or all clients... isn't that pretty much what p2p means
07:44<TrueBrain>peter1138: indeed, S/C migration. Ugh :P
07:44-!-Devedse__ [~Devedse@kbl-tnz7681.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd
07:44<TrueBrain>Elukka: no :)
07:44<TrueBrain>by definition, no :) But this is the problem with these terms
07:45<TrueBrain>they changed a lot over the last few years
07:45<TrueBrain>client/client models can not grow beyond 4 clients
07:45<@peter1138>they probably mean "p2p" as in "without a dedicated server"
07:45<TrueBrain>after that, it becomes .... not smart :)
07:45<TrueBrain>as all clients are connected to all clients
07:45<TrueBrain>imagine a game of 255 (OpenTTD) clients connected
07:45<Elukka>homeworld 2 did 6 players
07:45<TrueBrain>255 open ports to all 255 other players
07:45<Elukka>homeworld 1 did 8
07:45<TrueBrain>6 is streching it, it really is
07:46<TrueBrain>several issues with client/client model: you _all_ need an open port in your firewall
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: fancy automatic network topologies
07:46<TrueBrain>which is a huge issue for many home users
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>like hypercubes and such
07:46<TrueBrain>this can be solved by having 1 client open ports to the other
07:46<norbert79>What about p2p gameplay for openttd? Where the whole game acts like a torrent client, and the main server is the tracker
07:46<TrueBrain>but at least 49% of the clients require that
07:46<@peter1138>l4d's lobby system was a pita
07:46<TrueBrain>norbert79: well, that is the normal concept of the term p2p these days
07:46<TrueBrain>which has nothing to do with client/client models
07:47<norbert79>TrueBrain: No, that has been overruled by DHT too
07:47<TrueBrain>Elukka: so reading back Elukka, I guess we started off wrong with the different definition of that term (which I also tried to point out to you :))
07:47<TrueBrain>DHT is still p2p :)
07:47<TrueBrain>just without server ;)
07:47<norbert79>TrueBrain: Sure, but not centralized anymore
07:47<TrueBrain>(well, no central server)
07:47<norbert79>TrueBrain: :)
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07:47<Eddi|zuHause>DHT is just a p2p-tracker :p
07:47<Elukka>well, i used the definition that's generally used in gaming context :P
07:47<TrueBrain>more in the idea of what is it call
07:47<TrueBrain>edonkey?
07:47<TrueBrain>Elukka: for the last 5 years, no more
07:47<norbert79>Edonkey was centralized
07:47<TrueBrain>it is an old term, nowedays called client/client
07:48<TrueBrain>norbert79: doesnt have to be :)
07:48<TrueBrain>also searches 'the cloud'
07:48<TrueBrain>Elukka: but still, imagine OpenTTD being client/client
07:48<TrueBrain>you are on a map with 16 other players
07:48<TrueBrain>you have 16 outgoing connections
07:48<TrueBrain>you are all talking to eachother
07:48<TrueBrain>what a waste of bandwidth, CPU, ..
07:48<Elukka>which one is best for openttd is something i won't try to argue :P
07:49<TrueBrain>well, you did ask if we were client/client or server/client
07:49<@peter1138>who would provide the clock?
07:49<TrueBrain>peter1138: they all have the same state ;)
07:49<@peter1138>sure, but currently the server provides the clock
07:49<@peter1138>unless they all provide a clock
07:49<TrueBrain>sure; but doesn't have to be ;)
07:49<@peter1138>which wouldn't make seense
07:49<TrueBrain>so client/clent would be possible; but ugh, please dont :P
07:49<@peter1138>unless you desync them all :D
07:50<@peter1138>no, let's do it!
07:50<TrueBrain>Elukka: but there are other reasons not to use client/client. Validation is another issue (again). Who to trust?
07:50<TrueBrain>now a server does the filtering
07:50<TrueBrain>and you can trust a server in general (or you dont, but it is up to you)
07:50<TrueBrain>otherwise you have to validate every client that connects
07:50<Elukka>i don't know how validation is handled in cleint/client games, just that it works :D
07:50<TrueBrain>the horror :P
07:50<TrueBrain>if I say: I move to tile B
07:50<TrueBrain>and you say the same
07:50<TrueBrain>who wins?
07:50<Elukka>hmm. going back to where we started, why would multicore be a problem for openttd's server/client architecture?
07:51<TrueBrain>there are collision protocols for that, sure, but ugh
07:51<TrueBrain>Elukka: your server has 8 cores
07:51<TrueBrain>your laptop has 1
07:51<TrueBrain>good luck joining a game with 5000 trains
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07:51<@peter1138>lies, my laptop has 4 cores
07:51<TrueBrain>I am not talking about yours per
07:51<TrueBrain>I am not talking about yours peter1138
07:51<norbert79>Mine has only 1 :( but it's shiny!
07:51<TrueBrain>I talked about Elukka's :P
07:52<Markk>My phone has a dualcore CPU.
07:52<norbert79>Markk: Cheater
07:52<Elukka>my phone only has one 800 mhz core :(
07:52<TrueBrain>Markk: it even has a few more CPUs in there :P
07:52<Markk>TrueBrain: :>
07:52<TrueBrain>Elukka: I promise you it has at least 2 more cores :P
07:52<TrueBrain>not at 800 MHz
07:52<TrueBrain>I have to admit :)
07:52<Elukka>well it does have a graphics processing unit
07:53<TrueBrain>it has a core specially to handle mobile traffic
07:53<Elukka>but that 800 mhz cpu is what's relevant if i were to, say, download openttd to my phone
07:53<TrueBrain>:P :P
07:53<TrueBrain>I agree :)
07:53<TrueBrain>well, to play
07:53<@peter1138>more importantly
07:53<TrueBrain>to download we can argue about :P
07:53<@peter1138>you can't play openttd on a phone
07:53<Elukka>sure you can
07:54<@peter1138>all the screens are way too tiny
07:54<norbert79>If you have x86 support
07:54<Markk>If you really, really want too.
07:54<Elukka>there's an android port
07:54<norbert79>well, some has 640x480
07:54<Markk>peter1138: HDMI out ftw?
07:54<TrueBrain>peter1138: ipad? :P
07:54<@peter1138>that's not *on* the phone :)
07:54<Elukka>whether it's practical is another question :P
07:54<TrueBrain>(is it a phone? :P)
07:54<Markk>norbert79: Some?
07:54<@peter1138>norbert79, yes, my old htc exec is 640x480. it's still TOO SMALL
07:54<Markk>norbert79: My old phone has 800*480
07:54<@peter1138>TrueBrain, no :P
07:54<TWerkhoven>openttd will run on my phone, but the phone's too slow
07:54<norbert79>Markk, peter1138: Well since OpenTTD comes with 640x480 in default, it should be enough, right? :)
07:54<@peter1138>norbert79, x86 support for what? :S
07:54<@peter1138>sure, you can fit the pixels on
07:55<Elukka>my phone has 800x480
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: how do you get openttd onto an i* device, if it can't be part of the app store?
07:55<@peter1138>but you can't *play* it
07:55<Elukka>i know fancier phones are more expensive
07:55<norbert79>Elukka: So does my old Eee :D
07:55<Elukka>err.
07:55<Elukka>fancier phones have better screens*
07:55<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I did not jailbreak my apple hardware
07:55<TrueBrain>wait ..
07:55<b_jonas>so what? if you can play ttdpatch on 640x480 then why couldn't you play ottd as well?
07:55<norbert79>peter1138: I used to play on 800x480, worked well, it was just the gfx driver causing an issue
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>bäh, three people with dark blue nicks talking at once is evil
07:56<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I agree
07:56<Elukka>back when computers used 640x480, your screen was what, 15 inches
07:56<TrueBrain>want me to kick one?
07:56<Elukka>phone screens might be the same resolution but it's like 3-4 inches
07:56<Elukka>much less screen space
07:56<norbert79>Elukka: Aye... Used to mainly play in 320x200/240
07:56<norbert79>Elukka: Sure, but that's where touchscreen comes in
07:56<norbert79>Elukka: and a nice little pointer
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: i played TT on a 9" laptop screen, was fine :)
07:58<@peter1138>trust me
07:58<@peter1138>openttd on a 3" 640x480 display is *not* playable :p
07:58<Elukka>i dunno how well a pointer would work with capacitive touchscreens
07:58<norbert79>3''... Well, agree on that :)
07:59<Elukka>i guess they make special ones for them?
08:00<@peter1138>(shame the IBM T221s didn't catch on)
08:01<@peter1138>3840x2400 on a 22" montiro
08:01<@peter1138>*monitor
08:01<@peter1138>openttd would be rather small there
08:02<norbert79>peter1138: Sure, and I am lost, when looking for 1 train :D
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>just enable double zoom... err... wait...
08:02<@peter1138>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/IBM_T221.jpg/735px-IBM_T221.jpg
08:02<@peter1138>^ that regular 80x24 xterm is a bit lost :P
08:02<norbert79>peter1138: Crazy... :D
08:02<@planetmaker>:-D
08:02<Elukka>i don't get why 1920x1080 was picked as the gold standard max resolution for everything
08:02<@peter1138>HDTV
08:02<Elukka>anything higher is really expensive specialty products
08:02<TrueBrain>something to do with fullHD? :P
08:02<norbert79>peter1138: Mine is a 6734-LB1... 17col, just fine
08:03<norbert79>Elukka: because some idiot thought using these 'standards' would do the trick...
08:03<norbert79>Elukka: Long live analouge...
08:03<Elukka>digital seems flat out better to me though :P
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>man, with two sleeping cats around, how can one not fall asleep?!?
08:03<Elukka>too bad everything here is still standard definition
08:05<Eddi|zuHause><Elukka> i don't get why 1920x1080 was picked as the gold standard max resolution for everything <-- it was a way for the screen industry to get out of moore's law
08:06<Elukka>digital HDTVs, yet everything is transmitted at SD...
08:07<@peter1138>i liked 4:3 :S
08:07<TrueBrain>I liked 320x200
08:07<@peter1138>16:10!
08:07<@peter1138>althogh not really
08:07<@peter1138>cos it's non-square :D
08:08<@peter1138>*non-square pixels
08:08<TrueBrain>:D
08:08<Elukka>i just wish the resolution wasn't 20 years in the past
08:08<TrueBrain>at least you know your history ;)
08:08<TrueBrain>drawing a circle back then was challlenging
08:08<@peter1138>i remember thinking that games couldn't possibly run at 640x480
08:08<@peter1138>cos the interface wasn't fast enough!
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>what's non-square about 16:10 with 1680x1050?
08:08<@peter1138>(16 bit ISA was quite limiting)
08:09<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, nothing
08:09<norbert79>Hmm, my good old AWE 64 ISA in my old 486...
08:09<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, 320x200, on the other hand...
08:09<norbert79>Maybe I shall again hook up the oldie again
08:09<Eddi|zuHause>how did my isa card then handle 1024x768?
08:10<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Slow... S3 (generic) couldn't barely refresh in Duke 3D. Where S3 Savage was quite ok
08:10<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, full screen moving image? sure...
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>theoretically it also supported 1280x1024, but my screen couldn't handle that
08:11<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: My screen was a 14'' CRT... It could only handle 640x480 ok. 800x600 was running only on 50 hz
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>that is one seriously weird resolution
08:11<@peter1138>16bit ISA being limited to ~ 16MB/s
08:11<@peter1138>theoretically
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>why not 1280x960, like any sane 4:3 display would use?
08:11<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: because 5:4 is more comfortable
08:12<@peter1138>mode x!
08:12<@peter1138>360x240 and the like
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: and that is why we have 16:9 nowadays?
08:12<@peter1138>360x400 if it was a really odd game
08:12<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: And that is why I still have a 5:4 LCD :)
08:12<@peter1138>we have 16:9 now because someone decided that widescreen was better
08:13<norbert79>Aye, movies came with widescreen, because thats more "realistic"
08:13<norbert79>so people started using desktops on that resolution
08:13<norbert79>and some bloke started calling it HD...
08:13<@peter1138>i don't actually mind widescreen
08:13<@peter1138>but the stupid 1080 height :S
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>i find widescreen way more comfortable
08:13<@peter1138>there are some higher resolutions, but only on massive screens
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>don't know how i ever lived without
08:13<norbert79>Well, if I would own a 16:9, I would rather use it on 9:16, since I am reading more, than watching movies.
08:14<@peter1138>or that T221 :D
08:14<@peter1138>my 16:10 can be rotated
08:14<@peter1138>but the pixel alignment feels wrong
08:14<norbert79>peter1138: Lucky for you, the only good thing on that, since it 'emultes' newspaper
08:14<norbert79>emulates
08:14<@peter1138>hmm, £1000 for a T221
08:16<norbert79>Besides, I think 16:9 for coding is the worst resolution ever, unless 9:16
08:16<@peter1138>oh, japan :S
08:18<norbert79>I wonder how playable OpenTTD would be on 9:16 or 10:16
08:19<Markk>I have two 1920*1080 (16:9) screens besides eachother.
08:19<Markk>(That I play OpenTTD on that is)
08:19<norbert79>That would be way too much space for me
08:20<SpComb>10:16 is enough to loose a window somewhere
08:20<norbert79>I can't even handle two virtual screens on Linux... it's just too much.
08:20<SpComb>the vertical distance is more than one's used to
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>two 16:9 screens on top of each other?
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>my graphics card can only handle one digital output
08:22<Elukka>widescreen is nicer just because of the ways our eyes are arranged on our heads
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>DVI+VGA or HDNI+VGA
08:23<Eddi|zuHause>which makes it problematic for dual screen
08:23<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: widescreen portrait
08:24<norbert79>Two 16:9 each side is just useful if some plays a simulator game, like plane simulator or car/truck simulation
08:24<norbert79>otherwise it's just useless
08:24<Markk>Should be three screen.
08:24<Markk>I rather have three.
08:24<Markk>But my workstation can't handle three screens. :/
08:24<Markk>(laptop)
08:24<SpComb>http://photos.qmsk.net/20110829-l220x/P8294054.JPG.html
08:24<b_jonas>norbert79: I thought it was useful for architects and other engineers who would otherwise draw designs on very large tables
08:25<norbert79>b_jonas: never done CAD work, yet in the past they could also manage without widescreen, didn't they? ;-))
08:25<norbert79>b_jonas: Anyway, probably
08:26<@planetmaker>I guess they managed with double screen ;-)
08:26<b_jonas>norbert79: I don't know, I'm not an engineer
08:26<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, if we think about it, mainframes are to be handled with two montiors at start: primary console, and regular secondary login console :)
08:26<b_jonas>basicaly I use a 16:10 screen because if you want a large TFT the only ones you can buy are 10:16 or 9:16 ratio
08:27<norbert79>planetmaker: So from this perspective, it's in use sonce the 1960's :)
08:27<@planetmaker>norbert79: but they're not made for CAD
08:27<@planetmaker>For CAD you had something like SGI Onyx or so. And they came with 2x 24" already in 1998
08:27<norbert79>planetmaker: No, they weren't. Yes, probably, pity SGI never managed to survive
08:28<@planetmaker>was a cool machine ;-)
08:28<b_jonas>I thought they still survive as a software manufacturer, right?
08:28<@planetmaker>And I wondered why the same code I wrote on that produced oom on my PC at home :-P
08:28<norbert79>back in the 90's, they were way overhead of regular PC's
08:28<norbert79>planetmaker: Thanks to SGI we have OpenGL too
08:28<@planetmaker>and then I did the memory math :-)
08:29<Markk>http://i.solidfiles.net/49a2.jpg
08:29<Eddi|zuHause>you quickly lose track of such stuff :p
08:29<Markk>That's my config
08:30<norbert79>trollface. ftw :D
08:30<Markk>:D
08:30<norbert79>Markk: When does the nharwal bacon?
08:30<Markk>At midnight.
08:31<norbert79>Good boy
08:31<norbert79>:)
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08:31<Markk>:)
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08:32<norbert79>Markk: Don't you get lost within so much space? I see, that you mainly use the left side only.
08:32<Markk>Nah, i use both sides.
08:32<Markk>It's at my work.
08:33<Markk>So I have OMT (our ticket system) and Excel at the left screen and IRC, Firefox etc. on the right screen.
08:33<Markk>An ye, outlook at the left screen as well.
08:33<Markk>But I would really need another screen.
08:33<b_jonas>work on one screen, play on another screen?
08:33<Markk>I played on both screens before. :)
08:34<norbert79>Markk: http://www-06.ibm.com/jp/pc/media/option/picture/l170m_r.jpg - That's my display, 17''
08:34<b_jonas>ah, so you want work on one screen, play on two screens, and the screen with work facing to the door so it's the only one the boss can see?
08:34<@planetmaker>:-D
08:34<Markk>When i play I play on both screens.
08:34<Markk>:)
08:35<Markk>I can't always play like.
08:35<Markk>I did that during the summer when we had 2 tickets a day like.
08:35<Markk>A bit more to do now.
08:36<b_jonas>you know, I can believe you
08:36<b_jonas>because when I first bought this large screen, I couldn't use it
08:36<b_jonas>I didn't understand what I could do with so much an area
08:36<Markk>:D
08:36<b_jonas>now I know and I have difficulty working on smaller screens
08:36<Markk>Yep
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's like buying a new HD and thinking "how could i ever fill this with data?"
08:37<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: exactly
08:37<Markk>The normal screens that you get when you start here is one 22" 1680*1050 (16:10) screen.
08:37<b_jonas>and now I want a bigger hard disk
08:37<Markk>I hated it.
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>i remember this thinking when i got a new 420MB(!) disk to expand the 80MB i already had
08:38<Markk>So I talked to my boss (whom is my teamleaders boss as well) who accepted my request for two 22" 1920*1080 screens.
08:38<Eddi|zuHause>now i have like 5TB filled
08:38<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: 420 MB... Conner disk, right?
08:38<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: Haha, ye, same here when I bought a 250GB hard drive back in 2005.
08:38<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Had the same, if yes
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: i'm fairly sure it was a Western Digital
08:39<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: how much of that 5 TB is movies?
08:39<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: I see, well WD was much better quality back then. Mine was CONNER
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: about 90%. some of it uncut tv recordings
08:39<b_jonas>I see
08:40<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: http://images.esellerpro.com/2131/I/166/97/medscaleCFS425A.jpg
08:40<norbert79>I have even trouble organizing my 100 GB of own stuff. Almost 60 Gb are games, 12 GB of Music, and rest books and army material :)
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>i think i have 1TB movie archive, 2.5TB series archive, and 1TB unsorted recordings
08:41<norbert79>rest is all different
08:41<Eddi|zuHause>games get pretty large as well nowadays
08:41<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Indeed.
08:42<norbert79>yet for some I don't understand the need of 10-15 GB?
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>and i don't even have any HD stuff yet
08:42<norbert79>Especially for single player games... Why?
08:42<Eddi|zuHause>fancy graphics
08:42<norbert79>Heh... Not impressed if doesn't improve gameplay.
08:43<norbert79>like spotting a sniper rifle, because the sun reflected from the optic
08:44<norbert79>But even physics are weird in recent games too. The best physics used was by Carmageddon 2
08:44<norbert79>that was fun
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>it's crazy how fast Civ V suddenly gets, when you switch to the strategic map :p
08:45<norbert79>The best graphic/story/physics balanced game I have played was Max Payne 1 and 2...
08:46<norbert79>While 1 had no real physics, the mood and the story gave that plus
08:46<norbert79>despite single only
08:46<norbert79>Mafia 1 rocks also
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>nobody develops good story/gameplay anymore. everything is fancy graphics.
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>look at how many balance tweaks Civ V got over the past year
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>like they never playtested it before...
08:48<norbert79>Aye, that's why we are all fans of OpenTTD. But regarding simulations, there is also less to offer. Atragon has some good ones, yet I love SCS's German Truck Simulator
08:48<norbert79>Astragon
08:50<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: What about Amnesia, The dark Descent ;-) ?
08:50<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Ever tried it? :D
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>no idea what genre that even is
08:50<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Try it ;-)
08:50<norbert79>Horror, but from the less bloody type :)
08:51<norbert79>it goes under your skin
08:51<norbert79>and your only task is to survive
08:51<norbert79>no weapons
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09:07<@Belugas>hello
09:16-!-Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd
09:17<norbert79>Hey Belugas
09:19<@Belugas>hi sir
09:21<norbert79>How are you today Belugas ?
09:26<@Belugas>still sick, still busy, still alive ;)
09:26<@Belugas>and you?
09:28<norbert79>Same :D
09:29<norbert79>Minor headache, too short sleep during night
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09:38<@Belugas>that's the season , i guess :)
09:55<@Belugas>#She comes out like a white shadow
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10:44<norbert79>Going 127.0.0.1... Finally.. Later everyone!
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10:48<Matthias>Hello, is it possible to delet your uploaded files on bananas?
10:49<@Terkhen>why do you want to delete them?
10:50<Matthias>I can't rename it so i have to delet it and upload it with another name again...
10:51<@Terkhen>I would upload the file with the new name instead of updating the old one; if the old file were deleted it wouldn't be possible to find it for loading old savegames and so on
10:52<Matthias>but they have the same grf_id and the same content...
10:52<@Terkhen>sorry, I don't know what would happen in that case
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10:52<@Terkhen>maybe a new name is a change big enough to warrant a new grfid
10:53<Matthias>ok...
10:53<TrueBrain>it is; no 1 grfid should have 2 names
10:53<TrueBrain>kinda defeats the purpose of everything :)
10:54<TrueBrain>in fact, no 2 uploads should have the same grfid
10:54<@planetmaker>what kind of name change, Matthias?
10:54<TrueBrain>in general :)
10:54<Matthias>then the old "ghost"-set will exist forever :D
10:55<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: Renaming a NewGRF should usually not matter much, should it?
10:55<Matthias>Do you know TARS and DACH?
10:55<Matthias>And do you know "Yoshi"? (That's me!)
10:55<@planetmaker>Yeah
10:55-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd
10:55<TrueBrain>planetmaker: means clients download 2 grfs with the same ID
10:55<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: same grf, re-named is the issue
10:56<@planetmaker>i.e. version 1.0 "Blue trains only". version 1.1 "Blue and red train set"
10:56<TrueBrain>planetmaker: that also gets a new grfID, does it not?
10:56<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: why?
10:56<TrueBrain>new version?
10:56<@planetmaker>It's 100% compatible just a few more trains?
10:56<@planetmaker>Never got a new grfID
10:57<Matthias>The grf was named TARS (Total Alpine Replacement Set) but now its DACH (D-CH-A tripoint set)!
10:57<TrueBrain>hmm, if it just extends it is possible
10:57<TrueBrain>still silly ;)
10:57<Matthias>Same content
10:57<@planetmaker>Nowadays it shouldn't. We have NewGRF version for that via action14
10:57<TrueBrain>planetmaker: it only increases confusion :)
10:57<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: that's why renaming a set as shown in online content should be feasible
10:57<@planetmaker>a set might grow. Or have typo
10:57<TrueBrain>planetmaker: that is exactly why it should not :)
10:58<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: wrong ;-)
10:58<TrueBrain>the idea of the whole BaNaNaS is: once uploaded, always uploaded. With that name, that version, that GRFID
10:58<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: it's not about changing an existing _file
10:58<@planetmaker>it's about what is displayed
10:58<@planetmaker>when browsing online content
10:58<TrueBrain>so make it a new grf, the system doesnt care :)
10:58<@planetmaker>it does. the grfID would need changing
10:59<TrueBrain>exactly :)
10:59<@planetmaker>I'm afraid you miss the issue at hand
10:59<TrueBrain>and I think you miss the issue :)
10:59<@planetmaker>ok, slowly:
10:59<TrueBrain>client A downloads grf B with ID C
10:59<TrueBrain>you rename it, and B becomes D
10:59<TrueBrain>client A downloads grf D with ID C
10:59<TrueBrain>so now he has 2 grf files with the same ID
10:59<TrueBrain>always bad
10:59<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: _existing_ content is NOT my issue
10:59<TrueBrain>for a new upload, you can give a new name
11:00<@planetmaker>But when I want to update a set, the name might change.
11:00<@planetmaker>And that exactly I CANNOT
11:00<TrueBrain>renaming by definition is always about existing information :)
11:00<@planetmaker>I can only change the name in the grf
11:00<@planetmaker>but not what bananas tells us
11:00<Rubidium>planetmaker: as far as I am aware you get the option to "change" the name when uploading a new version
11:00<@planetmaker>i.e. OpenGFX+Airports is still called airportsplus
11:00<@planetmaker>And a normal user can't change that
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11:01<@planetmaker>Same with the some other set which got the version in the name. No way to rectify that
11:01<Rubidium>once it's uploaded, then it shouldn't change name anymore as it is the filename as well
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11:01<TrueBrain>existing uploads should never be changed; not even by admins
11:01<@planetmaker>Rubidium: no
11:01<Rubidium>planetmaker: then that should be fixed I'd say
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>Matthias: what you should do is disable downloading of the old grf for all versions, and then upload the new version with new name.
11:02<Rubidium>though I seem to remember more should be fixed some day
11:02<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/173405 <-- that thing can't be changed
11:02<V453000>pm: where can I get a firs nightly with the changed supplying mechanism? 2604 from bundles/firs seems not to include that
11:02<@planetmaker>V453000: nowhere
11:02<TrueBrain>planetmaker: whch is completely by design (documents)
11:03<@planetmaker>it's not finished written yet
11:03<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: I'm afraid that's bad.
11:03<Rubidium>TrueBrain: I see no reason why the name can't be changed for a new version
11:03<V453000>oh :(
11:03<TrueBrain>when BaNaNaS was designed, that was one of the requirements in fact :)
11:04<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: requirements can change
11:04<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: that for sure :)
11:04<Rubidium>ghehe... where's that requirements document?
11:04<TrueBrain>the reasoning is simple: a grfID should be identiable by its name
11:04<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you really wan tme to look that up? :P it was written down for a change :)
11:04<@planetmaker>grfID should suffice
11:04<TrueBrain>as there was some debate about some elements
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>why would that be necessary?
11:05<Rubidium>but I guess it's just ambiguously worded designs
11:05<TrueBrain>because back then there was quiet a nice naming schema some people had :P
11:05<TrueBrain>basically it has to do with uniqueness
11:06<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: but this way I never could rectify a typo, as if I wrote "Sweaty Rails" by accident as opposed to "Swedish Rails"
11:06<TrueBrain>atm BaNaNaS has this approach: a grfID can only exist once in the database for any name+version
11:06<@planetmaker>and only noticed after uploading the first version
11:06<TrueBrain>planetmaker: the solution is a new grfID and a new upload; that has been from start (and always has been used in the beginning. I can't speak from after that, as I didnt track that :P)
11:06<@planetmaker>it would be sweaty rails for all eternity - or I'd have to break savegame compatibility for no good reason
11:07<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: One single NewGRF never changed grfID. Unless it was totally incompatible to the previous versions
11:07<Rubidium>I'd reckon the requirement is worded like: "after uploading the name can't be changed"
11:07<TrueBrain>Rubidium: btw, bold assumptions on your part ;)
11:07<TrueBrain>Rubidium: no, it is worded like: a name should be bind to a grfID, unique and global
11:08<TrueBrain>(in less fancy words, but I hav eot look it up to give you an exact quote :P)
11:08<TrueBrain>anyway, it is over very low relevance how things were 5 years ago
11:08-!-Matthias [~chatzilla@p5492E7BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:08<TrueBrain>in fact, of 0 relevance :)
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: how about adding a(n additional) name for each version?
11:08<TrueBrain>all I can tel you: it is by design, as we wanted to force a single name for a grf over time
11:08<@planetmaker>ok, can we just agree that the design and requirement at that point is not ideal (anymore) and should be revised there?
11:09<TrueBrain>planetmaker: many things within BaNaNaS have to be revised
11:09<@planetmaker>grdID unique - of course. But there are good reasons the name bound to it could change
11:09<TrueBrain>for example, if a version action exist, it should be used ;)
11:09<TrueBrain>planetmaker: the idea was to avoid people changing the name every upload, for every version
11:09<@planetmaker>that's advanced class ;-)
11:09<@planetmaker>I understand that
11:09<TrueBrain>that was the idea behind it, and that is what isimplemented. All I can say about it :)
11:10<TrueBrain>changing it .. well .. we have been over that many times before :)
11:10<@planetmaker>but the reverse conclusion "don't ever allow" is not good either
11:10<TrueBrain>it is a result of such constraint :) I am sure nobody considered it back then
11:10<@planetmaker>so, for now: could we change it on a single-intervention basis?
11:10<@planetmaker>for where it really is needed?
11:10<TrueBrain>to a what?
11:11<@planetmaker>I mean just editing the name in the DB or so :-)
11:11<TrueBrain>you cannot (and never should want to) rename an existing entry
11:11<TrueBrain>so that is not possible
11:11<@planetmaker>I didn't dare to dig there too deep in fear of breaking something
11:11<TrueBrain>your only options are to allow editing of th ename field during uploading, but I am afraid there are a few hard constraints on it during upload
11:11<TrueBrain>(I believe it does a query on the name to fetch relative parents)
11:12<@planetmaker>hm, I feared that answer
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11:12<@planetmaker>it should query grfID
11:12<TrueBrain>so, as with any software, to change a constraints of a design document is hard, to say the least
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11:12<@planetmaker>yeah... :S
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11:12<TrueBrain>so we come back to the same old story: write a freaking replacement :)
11:13<@planetmaker>meh
11:13<TrueBrain>BaNaNaS was both written in a hurry as written with little knowledge of the domain (as it was new and well, it was said to never kick off)
11:13<TrueBrain>nowedays I wonder if a user downloads grfs manually :P
11:13<TrueBrain>that would be a nice survey ... :)
11:14<@planetmaker>Matthias: so the short answer is: no, it's not possible. For anyone
11:14<TrueBrain>planetmaker: btw, if such change would be made, it has to be considered carefully to dont get a renegade of names
11:14<TrueBrain>something like moderator approval or something
11:15<Matthias>:(
11:15<Matthias>so i have to leave the old ones there and make an new upload with a new grfid?
11:15<@planetmaker>we don't have that now either, do we?
11:15<TrueBrain>planetmaker: no; that is wha tI am saying, you would want that :)
11:15<@planetmaker>Matthias: or keep the name
11:15<TrueBrain>the abuse of the version field is already laughable at best
11:16<@planetmaker>hm... I guess some versions are interesting, but well?
11:16<TrueBrain>"zeta for bananas" <- version string :D
11:17<@planetmaker>yeah, well
11:17<dihedral>PreAlpha 3.1 <- i like this one too
11:17<@planetmaker>:-)
11:17<@planetmaker>People have fun(k/n)y version schemes
11:17<dihedral>and 'all' :-)
11:17<Matthias>and you can't delete content?
11:18<TrueBrain>planetmaker: the only 'sane' solution I see is to force the version action, and make sure grfid+version is always unique
11:18<TrueBrain>then you can lose the constraint on the name much easier
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>"renaming" of GRFs without GRF-ID change has happened even before BaNaNaS was invented
11:19<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yes it has :)
11:19<Rubidium>TrueBrain: is that requirement supposed to be in http://devs.openttd.org/~truebrain/contentProvider.txt ?
11:19<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I cleaned up my dev-space, I sure hope not :P
11:19<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: the version action should be part of any sane newgrf, yes
11:19<TrueBrain>a 404 page, how nice :)
11:19<dihedral>quite pretty
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. the name changed from "DBSet" (version <= 0.5) to "DBSetXL" (version > 0.5)
11:20<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: is that the worst you can do? :D
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>yes :p
11:20<dihedral>ha! no wonder i used to look for the DBSet for ages
11:21<TrueBrain>Matthias: no, you cannot delete content from BaNaNaS.
11:22<TrueBrain>you can, however, make it non-public, as in: it wont show in the content lists
11:22<TrueBrain>it will always be fetchable from the storage
11:22<Matthias>and the admin not, too?
11:22<Matthias>(who is the "admin"?)
11:22<Eddi|zuHause>dihedral: it's right there on http://www.ttdpatch.net/newgrf.html
11:22<@planetmaker>Matthias: you talked to the creator of bananans ;-)
11:22<@planetmaker>(TB)
11:22<TrueBrain>any developer can strictly seen do it, but they can also just relay such information just fine :)
11:23<@planetmaker>:-P
11:23<TrueBrain>but by policy we never delete stuff
11:23<TrueBrain>(unless there is a violation of some kind)
11:23<TrueBrain>people uploading copyrighted shit ;)
11:23<TrueBrain>well, even these are not deleted, but made hidden, and marked as: BAD BAD BAD GRF :P
11:23<@planetmaker>yeah. Making it unavailable would suffice
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>Matthias: imagine someone who created a game with your uploaded version, now you change the name (and thus the md5sum), now people cannot continue their game, if you delete the grf
11:24<TrueBrain>nicely worded Eddi|zuHause
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>note that all this could have been prevented if the name of the grf hadn't been decided 5 minutes before the release :)
11:26<@planetmaker>:-)
11:26<TrueBrain>a new name has to give a mismatch in md5 in any case, so :P
11:26<@planetmaker>Matthias: what is now the name on bananas? TARS?
11:26<TrueBrain>yuo need to change something silly :D
11:26<@planetmaker>Just keep it. It's good enough
11:27<Matthias><planetmaker>TARS, yes...
11:27<Matthias>and as you know of tt-ms now it's DACh
11:28<TrueBrain>planetmaker: btw, better idea for renmaing might be aliasing, and only having one of the two public. Just as idea ;)
11:28<@planetmaker>It's ambitious - so what :-) See it as options :-)
11:28<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: that would work, too. But just two? ;-)
11:28<TrueBrain>one of the <set>
11:28<TrueBrain>sigh :P
11:28<@planetmaker>:-P
11:28*planetmaker hugs TrueBrain
11:28*TrueBrain hugs planetmaker back; you are such a cuty :P
11:29<Matthias>ok... i 'll try something... bye
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11:30<TrueBrain>planetmaker: curious, is the version action a number or a string?
11:30<@planetmaker>it's a dword
11:30<TrueBrain>ascending?
11:30<@planetmaker>thus number
11:30<@planetmaker>yes
11:30<TrueBrain>how nice :)
11:31<@planetmaker>well. OpenTTD will (by default) only display the highest one
11:31<@planetmaker>you could use it erratically
11:31<TrueBrain>yeah, but so OpenTTD 'forces' ascending versioning
11:31<TrueBrain>which is good :)
11:31<TrueBrain>it was always one of those things that annoyed me :)
11:31<@planetmaker>yup. And there's a 'min compatible version', too. Same properties
11:31<@planetmaker>Thus bananans could (and probably should) then take care of that, too
11:32<@planetmaker>and offer several versions, if needed ;-)
11:32<TrueBrain>bananans? :D
11:32<TrueBrain>hihi
11:32<@planetmaker>bnananananananananananaaassss
11:32<@planetmaker>or something ;-)
11:32<TrueBrain>worst name ever, I still love it :)
11:32<@planetmaker>it's a good one :-)
11:32<@planetmaker>every monkey grabs a banana
11:32<@planetmaker>;-)
11:33<TrueBrain>next step for BaNaNaS is to name the files based on their grfid+version
11:33<TrueBrain>solves all problems :D
11:34<TrueBrain>(then everything else is meta-data and can be freely changed when-ever)
11:34<@planetmaker>md5sum is more unique :-)
11:35<TrueBrain>I can proof you wrong there, but for the common sense, yeah, lets use that :D
11:35<TrueBrain>it seriously would be better, system-wise. Just horrible for any human trying to look at those directories :)
11:36<@planetmaker>yes, quite. Thus one could combine it
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>would be very evil if someone generated a grf with same md5sum :p
11:36<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yup; it would :)
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11:37<Eddi|zuHause>i should try that in CETS :)
11:37<@planetmaker>:-D
11:37<TrueBrain>its funny, the database is prepared for multi-author; I wonder where that went wrong .. I believe in the frontend ..
11:38<@planetmaker>lack of motivation? ;-)
11:38<TrueBrain>I remember there was an issue; I just cant remember what
11:38<@planetmaker>like "first let's test run this" - and provisional things last an eternity. We all know
11:38<TrueBrain>there is also a karma system in the database
11:39<TrueBrain>which was meant to allow self-moderation within BaNaNaS
11:39<@planetmaker>ui
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like an awfully wrong way to do things
11:39<TrueBrain>back then it was 'hot'
11:40<@planetmaker>:-)
11:42<TrueBrain>out of the 4.2k old users, only 0.5k ever merged their account; the rest are still dangling :P
11:44<@planetmaker>huch? That low quota?
11:44<TrueBrain>I was expecting a higher number myself
11:44<TrueBrain>we now have 5k users in the new setup
11:45<TrueBrain>too bad we store no data to track users, what they do and how often they return ..
11:45<TrueBrain>darn is, why do we throw away logs! :P
11:45<@planetmaker>:-) Ok that's more than before. Maybe there's a certain number which just created a new acount
11:45<TrueBrain>many did, as they couldnt' remember their passwords :P
11:45<@planetmaker>:-)
11:46<TrueBrain>anyway, all this talk about BaNaNaS, why is nobody stepping up to make a new piece of software for it?
11:46*TrueBrain looks around
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12:15<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: as manythings, it's already advanced class ;-)
12:15<@planetmaker>DB 310 and webdesign 301 or so
12:15<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Sun_and_VY_Canis_Majoris.svg/1000px-Sun_and_VY_Canis_Majoris.svg.png
12:15<Elukka>love this pic
12:16<__ln__>photoshopped
12:16<Elukka>lol
12:17<Elukka>the scale should be right
12:17<Elukka>it's about 2000 times the radius of the sun
12:20<appe>http://gyazo.com/836b86ce08c8ff98de82844db46b68ca
12:20<appe>you see the rails to the right?
12:20<appe>i want the trains to go to the left, then right, then left, and so on.
12:21<appe>and i cant really get the signals to work properly. got tip?
12:21<appe>:)
12:22<@planetmaker>appe: search the coop wiki for logic network
12:22<appe>ok
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12:24<KenjiE20>oddly, I don't think we have any image examples, they're in saved games =/
12:25<@planetmaker>that'd be unfortunate then. In the blog maybe?
12:26<V453000>ABR 02
12:26<V453000>you want flipflop I suppose
12:26<KenjiE20>that would be the obvious one
12:26<V453000>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/1/10/SPLITS_06_flipflop.png
12:26<V453000>http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2010/03/25/advanced-building-revue-02-splits/ original page
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12:29<TrueBrain>planetmaker: for sure we should have people who have had that class ...
12:30<@planetmaker>yeah, we should
12:31<KenjiE20>but did they also pass Advanced Effort 101? :p
12:32<TrueBrain>guess I should spend some time moving django to his new place ... I think he will like that a lot
12:33<@Terkhen>:P
12:38<@planetmaker>:-)
12:39<@planetmaker>Rubidium: could you please push OpenGFX to the mirrors?
12:39<TrueBrain>add a redstone torch next to the piston; should work
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12:55<appe>flipflop?
12:57<+glx>TrueBrain: sticky or not ?
12:57<TrueBrain>I am out of slimes, so ..
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13:14<LordAro>evening
13:16-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd
13:16-!-Mucht is "Martin Nussbaumer" on @#coopetition @#JJ @+#openttdcoop.association @#openttdcoop.dev #wwottdgd #openttd @#tycoon.de @#openttdcoop
13:16<LordAro>anyone else think that monoid has potential as a future developer?
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13:18<LordAro>what perfect timing :)
13:18<LordAro>hai Alberth
13:18<LordAro>(i logged in 4 mins ago)
13:19<@Alberth>hi LordAro
13:19<LordAro>you see monoid's comments on readme patch?
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: you don't get to be brightest star on the night sky for no reason...
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13:20<@Alberth>not yet
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: although it's probably more difficult to see the further north you are
13:21<LordAro>Alberth: i implemented his suggestions, then i got planetmaker's bug :)
13:21<@Alberth>give me a minute to read :)
13:22<@planetmaker>I haven't really read the patch or what may cause it. But it's persistent, the last lines are always truncated. And it seems to me they're just not displayed.
13:22<@planetmaker>i.e. the scrolling is stopped to early in a false assumption on the length
13:22<@planetmaker>of the _displayed_ pixel heigth. I might be totally wrong, though
13:23<@planetmaker>but the lowest line just shows the upper two pixels of a text line
13:23<LordAro>yeah, i changed the scrollbar length 'setting' to monoid's suggestion, and got your bug. never saw it before though
13:23<LordAro>(while on standard font, original_winodws gfx)
13:24<@planetmaker>LordAro: I got that bug prior to him commenting
13:25<LordAro>yeah, which made me think that it could potentially be an os problem
13:25<@planetmaker>I doubt
13:25<LordAro>(me linux, you osx)
13:25<@planetmaker>all this drawing-stuff is abstracted away from any OS call
13:25<@Alberth>hi planetmaker
13:26<@planetmaker>hello Alberth
13:26<LordAro>planetmaker: yeah, but i wasn't seeing the problem, so i was busy overthiinking things
13:27<@Alberth>I'd be surprised if osx and linux are different, yet every other window works
13:27<@planetmaker>yeah
13:28<LordAro>well, unless there's someproblem to do with ogfx/original_windows, i don't know
13:29<@Alberth>did you try with the originally posted version too (assuming that version was used by pm)
13:29*LordAro nods
13:29<@Alberth>hmm, weird
13:29<@planetmaker>I think I have the original one
13:30<LordAro>i hadn't changed anyting since i uploaded it
13:30<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22949 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt: -Fix [FS#4784]: Locale categories LC_NUMERIC and LC_MONETARY of cy_GB are identical to en_GB.
13:32<@Alberth>bleh, it rebuilds everything
13:32<LordAro>afriad so :)
13:33<@planetmaker>not quite 100%... 70% or so
13:33<LordAro>but then, so does every 'update from web translator'
13:34*LordAro remembers to upload new patch to fs
13:35<Rubidium>what does an update from WT?
13:35<LordAro>'rebuilds everything'
13:36<Rubidium>it never does
13:37<Rubidium>the only language that would trigger lots of rebuilding is english.txt, which isn't managed by the WT
13:37<LordAro>rebuilds as in i have to recompile completely
13:37<LordAro>really?
13:37<Rubidium>what the WT commits just requires rebuilding the language files and it's done
13:37<LordAro>hmm
13:38<Rubidium>even then, only changes to english.txt that change the string names (add/remove/modify) trigger rebuilding (of everything that includes tables/strings.h)
13:38<Rubidium>so it doesn't even trigger a full rebuild at all
13:38<Rubidium>many files are very rarely recompiled
13:39<LordAro>clever makefile :)
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22950 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt russian.txt welsh.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: latvian - 119 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: russian - 19 changes by akasoft, perk11
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: welsh - 2 changes by kazzie
13:50<@Alberth>LordAro: confirmed the bug
13:50<LordAro>which bug? :_
13:50<LordAro>* :)
13:51<@Alberth>I can mostly read readme files :p
13:52<LordAro>hmm. works for me :L
13:52<@Alberth>is the window supposed to be a whole number of lines exactly?
13:52<LordAro>i guess so
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13:55<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/whole_number_of_lines.png <-- it's not, notice the white line that sticks up from the line below pointing to "e" in "lets" at the last line
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13:56<LordAro>hmm.
13:56*LordAro goes back to linux pc
13:56<LordAro>thanks for that, although i sort of was aware of it :)
13:57-!-LordAro is now known as Aro|afk
13:58-!-Aro|afk is now known as LAro|afk
13:58<LAro|afk>thats better :)
13:59<@Terkhen>see you tomorrow
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14:00<@planetmaker>enjoy, Terkhen
14:01<@Alberth>LAro|afk: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/docs/readme.ptxt <-- it looks like you are missing about 1/2 a line
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14:12<fjb>Moin
14:16<@peter1138>hmm, netbook + linux not so good
14:16<@peter1138>temp sensor thinks it's 26.8°C all the time
14:17<@peter1138>hence is doesn't power on the fan
14:17<@peter1138>*it
14:17<@peter1138>hence it'll probably cook itself before long :S
14:17<TWerkhoven>only sensor available?
14:17<@peter1138>normally these things are automatically controlled by the bios anyway :S
14:18<@peter1138>"Aspire One by default commonly doesn't manage Fan speed correctly, resulting in a very noisy AA0. Solution:
14:18<@peter1138>yeah
14:18<@peter1138>except it's not on at all!
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14:18<TWerkhoven>at least its quiet
14:19<@peter1138>yers
14:22<fjb>use it only in winter.
14:23<Rubidium>peter1138: it's better than a fan/temp combination that speed up the lower the temperature gets (and subsequently slow down when it gets hotter)
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14:46<@peter1138>hmm, coretemp says 40°C
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14:50<frosch123>teatemp says about 100°C
14:51<@planetmaker>that much? :-)
14:51<frosch123>dropping
14:52<frosch123>ok, it was still water when measuring :)
14:52<@planetmaker>:-D
14:52<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it meant 100°F
14:53<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: why should one use a scale with only one useful reference point?
14:53<frosch123>you need at least two reference points for a linear scale
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>that, or the first derivate at the reference point
14:54<frosch123>it does not matter in which point you take the derivate :p
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>but then you'd have a second reference point -> contradiction
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15:08<Wolf01>hello
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15:14<@peter1138>hmm, openttd on FF gets it to 60°C
15:15<@peter1138>so not bad really
15:15<@peter1138>think the fan is on but very slow
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15:19<@peter1138>ok
15:19<@peter1138>"Excitement! Run for your life" is nirvana
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16:07<Hinrik>I have an airport whose catchment area includes houses from towns A and B. According to the station name, the airport is in town. Will an advertising campaign in town B have any effect on the amount of cargo I get at the airport?
16:07<Hinrik>is in town A*
16:09<TWerkhoven[l]>as long as the town-B houses within the catchment area produce at least a full (8/8) passenger, i'd think so
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16:14<Rubidium>advertising campaigns only have effect with X tiles from the city center
16:14<Rubidium>(X can be found in the wiki)
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16:28<Hirundo>There is no such thing as full (8/8) or partial production, only acceptance is counted as n/8
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17:58<Elukka>perhaps a long shot, but nobody would happen to have compiled a recent cargodist windows binary, would they?
17:58<Elukka>i have openttd withdrawal symptoms
17:58<pjpe>do it yourself
17:58<pjpe>ain't THAT hard
17:59<Elukka>seems like it is
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18:03<Eddi|zuHause>it's really not
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>and when you did it once, the next time is really trivial
18:04<Elukka>it's probably easier if you have any programming experience at all
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>not really
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18:20<SpComb>it's fine if it all goes well
18:20<SpComb>but if you have to debug something..
18:21<Eddi|zuHause>which should not be necessary if you stick to applying the patch to the same revision it was written for
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18:26<Elukka>well, it seems like a bit more effort to go through than i'm willing to essentially install a mod to a game
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18:46<Wolf01>'night
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18:58<__ln__>"In Thüringen sind zwei Güterzüge zusammengeprallt - dabei soll mindestens ein mit Benzin gefüllter Kesselwagen explodiert sein."
18:59<@Terkhen>hi
18:59<__ln__>hi
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>you get real time news about train accidents or something?
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19:01<__ln__>ummm.. sort of, from #elsewhere where someone apparently monitors news sources
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>i used to travel on that route quite frequently a few years ago
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19:05<Eddi|zuHause>it's not a major passenger route, but pretty high cargo route
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>there are two major east-west routes in thüringen, the so called "Thüringer Bahn" from Halle/Leipzig via Weimar, Erfurt, Eisenach to Bebra (further to Fulda and Frankfurt (M)) connecting most of the major cities is mostly used for passenger traffic
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>and the "Halle-Kasseler Eisenbahn", which connects fewer large cities is mostly free for freight traffic
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>the accident happened on the latter
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19:09<__ln__>ok
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20:58<@Terkhen>good night
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---Logclosed Thu Sep 22 00:00:22 2011