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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-22

---Logopened Thu Sep 22 00:00:22 2011
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02:30<@Terkhen>good morning
02:33<@planetmaker>moin
02:47-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd
02:51-!-norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has joined #openttd
02:51<norbert79>Morning
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03:04<appe>good morning
03:05<norbert79>Morning appe
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03:49<dihedral>good morning
03:50<norbert79>morning dihidrogene-monoxide :)
03:51<dihedral>i am not sure i consider that a compliment :-P
03:51<norbert79>Well, water is cool. Without water there is no life.
03:51<norbert79>nor openttd
03:52<dihedral>but the name only suits a human to 90% :-P
03:52<dihedral>i am so much more
03:52<norbert79>but it keeps thing flowing :)
03:52<norbert79>things
03:53-!-DDR [~DDR@d142-179-78-88.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg]
03:54<dihedral>i feel so cheap
03:54<norbert79>...oook, I guess referring to the huge ammount of water in the ocean won't help here either...
03:55<norbert79>Damn, I wanted to make a more intelligent line, and still failed. :)
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03:57<appe>21:52 < norbert79> Well, water is cool. Without water there is no life.
03:57<appe>21:53 < norbert79> nor openttd
03:57<appe>and so, norbert took his ten two commandments and led the jews to freedom.
03:57<appe>-ten
03:57<norbert79>lol
03:57<appe>"ten two"
03:58<appe>:,(
03:58<norbert79>Sounds like a police-code
03:58<norbert79>:)
03:58<norbert79>10-4!
03:58<norbert79>appe: 9:53pm over there? Australia?
03:58<appe>wrong side ;).
03:58<appe>sweden
03:59<norbert79>Impossible :S
03:59<norbert79>Your clock is set wrong then :)
03:59<appe>oh jebus
03:59<appe>it's 12 hours wrong
03:59<appe>im in australia!
03:59<appe>for some reason
03:59<norbert79>you mixed up the am/pm possibly
03:59<appe>not my server
04:00<appe>this is what happens when you ssh trough server, trough server, trough server.
04:00<norbert79>yeah, you time-travle
04:00<norbert79>travel
04:00<appe>my shell is a delorean
04:00<appe>with a 1,21 gigawatt psu
04:00<@peter1138>trough?
04:00<norbert79>through he meant
04:01<appe>:<
04:01<norbert79>appe: Cool, get me some laced shoes when you will come back, it will be much cheaper in the future for sure :)
04:01<dihedral>appe, that should be enough to run at least irssi
04:02<norbert79>but you could also say hi to Mr. Spock when going a bit further
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04:03<norbert79>I wonder if the doc ever considered the fact entering into a wall with the DeLorean while time-travel, since there was no guarantee, that there won't be a building, when traveling through time at the same spot.
04:04-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
04:06<appe>well, when he travel back in time, that's (relatively) easy to control.
04:06<appe>dihedral: i guess.
04:06<norbert79>Sliders was cool, it was the first tv-series, which was closer to current theories about time, and it was also a good demonstration of the relative theory of Einstein. (They travelled through the same few hours/days all over and over again, but in different dimensions, yet they aged)
04:06<norbert79>relativitiy
04:06<norbert79>eh
04:07<norbert79>typo everything! :)
04:07<appe>relativitly?
04:07<norbert79>relativity theory
04:07<norbert79>told ya, typo-day
04:07<appe>am i using the word correctly up there?
04:07<appe>i really need to work on my english spelling, and grammar
04:08<norbert79>guess so...
04:08<appe>after all these years.
04:08<appe>..
04:08<appe>im swedish, im supposed to speak better english then english peopel.
04:08<appe>people*.
04:08<appe>typo tuesday
04:08<norbert79>Thursday that is
04:09<norbert79>I am Hungarian, and speaking German and English, yet even I have issues, and when I get in shape with German, my English starts fading, and then it goes all around, I start working on English, then my German suffers... :)
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04:09<appe>wait what, it's thursday?
04:10<norbert79>Indeed
04:10<appe>i really need to stop working like this
04:10<norbert79>22nd of September, 2011, Thursday
04:11<Hirundo>Eddi|zuHause: What's so scary about bridge action0s?
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04:17<@planetmaker>bridges are not fully NewGRF-implemented yet
04:18<@planetmaker>but adding an action0 'max_height' should still be no issue
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04:31<appe>i think i missed out badly on this grf thing
04:31<appe>i actually thought all usable grf were housed in the online content menu.
04:34<Elukka>if only
04:36<@planetmaker>90% are
04:36<@planetmaker>and the remaining 10% is not their due to stubborn authors
04:37<appe>i see
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05:23<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: people will want action 1/2/3 support and stuff, it's something a heightlevel patch should not bother with...
05:25-!-norbert79 [~Norbi@deibp9eh1--blueice1n2.emea.ibm.com] has left #openttd [Exit stage left...]
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05:25<norbert79>I need a bit more sleep
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>i managed to get a 1.7 in my AI exam!
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>i don't really know how...
05:26<norbert79>AI exam? Well, congratulations!
05:27<norbert79>1.7 is a well done note
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05:27<__ln__>is the scale 1..5, 1 is best?
05:27<norbert79>In the German one, yes
05:27<Eddi|zuHause>yes
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05:27<norbert79>In Hungary it's just the opposite
05:28<__ln__>here as well
05:28<Eddi|zuHause>actually it's 1..4 and failed
05:28<__ln__>1..5, 5 is best. (well, technically 0..5, 0 is fail)
05:28<norbert79>we have no 0... It's full enough being blamed by a 1 :)
05:29<norbert79>for...
05:29<norbert79>Which school you are attending Eddi|zuHause ?
05:29<__ln__>failures are not usually expressed as 0, no
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>the Martin Luther university of halle-wittenberg
05:30<norbert79>Oh, nice, yet coming from the name I wouldn't have expected technical related topics :)
05:31<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: "Zentrum für Ingenieurwissenschaften", am I right?
05:32<b_jonas>failures are written as 1 but are either counted as 0 in formulas or is handled specially
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>not really
05:32<b_jonas>or is treated as -infty
05:32<b_jonas>depends on the application
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>i am studying computer science
05:32<__ln__>strange that a modern day university can be named after such a person
05:32<b_jonas>__ln__: why? it's all politics
05:32<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Just browsing through the Uni webpage. __ln__ : Why?
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>the university is over 500 years old
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>and martin luther is a very famous and influential person around here...
05:33<__ln__>because Luther has written a book called "On the Jews and Their Lies". (i haven't read it, dunno if it's any good)
05:33<norbert79>And it's not the old DDR era, where all the universities and colleges had to be renamed...
05:33<norbert79>__ln__: So?
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that's not really what he is famous for. but admittedly that has been abused in nazi times
05:34<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: but so has wagner
05:34<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: No wonder really.
05:35<Eddi|zuHause>and they're still playing wagner nowadays
05:35<norbert79>Except for some German tunes, like the Horst-Wessel Lied
05:35<norbert79>But we have also some portions of culture, which get or got abused often :(
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>except the israelis, they have some kind of trouble admitting publicly that wagner made good music
05:36<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Politics... :)
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>there was a huge outcry recently where an israelian orchestra wanted to perform on the wagner-festspiele in bayreuth
05:37<norbert79>__ln__: Hard, and touchy topics are such, and despite for many cases, where things are either black or white, still the world isn't
05:37<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Damn it, it's just music for Pete's sake
05:37<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: I will never understand such people
05:37<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: There is no text, just classical music...
05:38<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: It's not like some black goth flick with texts about death and such...
05:38<norbert79>Wagner is Wagner, period.
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: anyway, it would be really silly to reject luther's influence on germany by reducing him to that one book.
05:40<norbert79>__ln__: Just think about it, views of one can change. Even to worse or better, or just different. Why to reject someone because he had a view of something at one period of a time? Shouldn't be the actions of one being judged by?
05:41<norbert79>Despite if I am thinking on good things, like flowers, but keep stepping on your toe, and not saying sorry it still makes me a moron... :)
05:42<MNIM>Eddi: quite probably because wagner supported nazism, was anti-zionistic and a huge promoter of Aryanism.
05:42<MNIM>you can imagine most Israeli don't really like him for that
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: even bad people write good music
05:42<MNIM>true.
05:42<MNIM>hitler made pretty decent paintings.
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>charlie sheen makes funny comedy.
05:43<MNIM>don't see 'em exhibited anywhere, though
05:43<MNIM>eddi: now /that/ is debatable
05:43<norbert79>MNIM: Despite nazism didn't start in the 30's I doubt this might be true in it's current form. Think about it, Martin Luther was born in 1483! WAY before any nazism present...
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>but really he's a terrible person
05:43<MNIM>norbert79... don't really see where luther came in the story?
05:44<norbert79>MNIM: Where, the whole conversation started from it :)
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>1483 was even before the concept of "nationality" came around
05:44<norbert79>MNIM: Scroll back
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>really napoleon laid the foundation of nationalism in germany.
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>it quite bite him in the arse afterwards
05:44<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Well, sorta
05:44<MNIM>ahah
05:45<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: The real thing started much later, in it's that form
05:45<MNIM>true. gotta love versailles, don't we.
05:45<@peter1138>hmm, i wonder what i did with my ambisonics patch
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: stop the on-topic talk!
05:45<norbert79>lol
05:45<norbert79>peter1138: DUCK! :)
05:46<@peter1138>quack?
05:46<norbert79>no, I mean duck, the movement :)
05:46<@peter1138>i did it based on screen position
05:47<Elukka>it's amazing how long many universities have been around
05:47<norbert79>Yeah
05:47<@peter1138>so there's no vertical position
05:47<Elukka>and they tend to have had continually occupied and maintained buildings through all that time
05:47<norbert79>peter1138: Bah, you should use your imagination more often :)
05:47<Elukka>medieval buildings that aren't ruins are a cool thing
05:48<MNIM>medieval buildings that are ruins still can be a cool thing >.>
05:48<norbert79>and afdter each war, we kept them rebuilding
05:48<norbert79>well, not all of course
05:48<@peter1138>i assumed the viewpoint is in the sky
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>not really that many medieval buildings around in the university
05:48<@peter1138>therefore everything is below you
05:48<@peter1138>so... no point
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: what if the creep sneaks up on you from behind?
05:49<@peter1138>this is not minecraft :(
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>err... :p
05:49<@peter1138>hmm, minecraft with special audio. actually it already is, i think.
05:49<@peter1138>er
05:49<@peter1138>spatial
05:49<@peter1138>:S
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05:51<Elukka>MNIM: yes, but surely intact buildings are even better :P
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: the university buildings are more 1700-ish, so not really medieval
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05:52<Eddi|zuHause>other buildings are more modern
05:53<MNIM>elukka: true, but sadly, some of the most awesome buildings don't come in that variety any more
05:53<Elukka>true
05:53<Eddi|zuHause>the building where the computer science department is located is a 1920/30's barracks building
05:54<Elukka>i think there's still late medieval buildings at some universities
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>originally used by a german air division, later by the russian occupation
05:54<Elukka>guild halls are another type of building that's often preserved
05:54<Eddi|zuHause>structurally renewed after the russians left in the 1990's
05:54<Elukka>"Mob Quad, in Merton College, Oxford. This group of buildings was constructed in three phases and concluded in c. 1315"
05:54<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/45/Mob_Quad_from_Chapel_Tower.jpg
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>there's a funny story: the walls in the building are so thick that no sane WLAN could be set up
05:55<MNIM>they look awesome, but it must be hell to work with a laptop there
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>then they switched to frequencies that are reserved for military use
05:55<MNIM>*ninja'd*
05:56<MNIM>anyway, that's not *too* special
05:56<MNIM>I mean, no sane wlan in my house either
05:56<Elukka>haha
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>and since then they worry that the americans could detect the use of these frequencies, and their maps showing that it's in a russian barracks territory
05:56<MNIM>and that's a 70/80s house, not a medieval one
05:57<Elukka>my wlan suprisingly works a fair distance outside
05:57<MNIM>oh, ours does too, as long as a clear line of sight is maintained
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>what's the usual distance? 300m-ish?
05:57<MNIM>but as soon as you need to cross a wall, or worse, a ceiling *boom* no network
05:58<MNIM>there's a school network some 200m away that I can get at better quality than mine
05:58<MNIM>and that network is hidden behind a retirement home!
05:58<Elukka>mine's your average cheap wlan router that sits on the third floor
05:58<Elukka>works... 50ish meters outside
05:59<MNIM>ours sits on the first floor in the meter cupboard
06:00<MNIM>right next to a solid brick staircase with walls 30cm thick, below a strengthened concrete ceiling
06:01<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: if you got 1.7, what's the resolution of that scale?
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: .0, .3 and .7
06:02<__ln__>sounds... imperial
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06:02<Eddi|zuHause>it's N, N+0.3 or N-0.3
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>so in this case 2-0.3
06:03<Eddi|zuHause>where 1-0.3 or 4+0.3 are illegal values
06:04<__ln__>our scale is {1,2,3,4,5}, nothing else
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06:05<__ln__>earlier we had {1,1+,1½,2-,2,2+,2½,3-,3}
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06:36<appe>bah, always the exciting chemistry talk that turned out to be programing
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08:29<Eddi|zuHause>where did you read chemistry?!?
08:31<appe>a quick look at "< Eddi|zuHause> it's N, N+0.3 or N-0.3" though we were discussin nitrogen eletron configuration.
08:31<Eddi|zuHause>did you know that freudian slips work for reading as well? :)
08:37<appe>of course :)
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08:41<appe>ill take electron configuration over ..imperial illegal scale resolution values..?
08:41<appe>:D
08:49<__ln__>appe: since when are course grades "programming"?
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>when the course is "introduction to artificial intelligence"?
08:54<__ln__>i've taken that course too
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>although there was quite little programming involved. but programming in prolog drove some people seriously crazy :p
08:54<norbert79>had something similar... Wasn't really exciting, since based on outdated information
08:54<__ln__>did you have the green book?
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>we did not have any green book
08:54<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that written by gaddafi?
08:55<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: The same method is still used over there too? Christ, I thought... LOL
08:55<norbert79>Khadafi... lol
08:55<@Terkhen>just the mention of prolog gives me a headache
08:55<norbert79>Rather the green book, than the green mile
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>hey, prolog is funny :)
08:56<Eddi|zuHause>or rather "fun"
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08:56<Eddi|zuHause>actually it's both, because the interpreter had some hitchhiker references :)
08:57<norbert79>and Ubuntu has a Prolog compiler listed in the repos...
08:57<norbert79>ew
08:57<appe>__ln__: since the time i didnt know what on earth course grades are ;).
08:58<@Terkhen>prolog is completely alien to my way of thinking :P
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09:03<Eddi|zuHause>actually you can easily make an almost-imperative program in prolog ;)
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09:03<@planetmaker>almost
09:04<@planetmaker>but you need to jump over many bear traps and through many rings
09:05<@Terkhen>and huge headaches :P
09:05<@planetmaker>but it was well-suited for writing a selection programme for the choice of courses, room-assignment etc in secondary school :-P
09:06<norbert79>I think Prolog just hurts real programming skills. It's typical French: differs from everything.
09:08<@planetmaker>that in itself is hardly hurtful
09:08<norbert79>Well, it's like teaching BASIC in 2011. It helps at least giving some idea about programing, but doubt it would be something useful to learn.
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>"BT's copper cables have a material value of 50 billion pounds, on the stock market, BT has a value of 20 billion pounds. so the "service" of BT is worth -30 billion pounds"
09:09<@planetmaker>:-D
09:09<SpComb>'cept how much ripping those up would cost, mh
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: sometimes learning a language like prolog or haskell can completely change your view about coding in "normal" languages
09:10*SpComb wonders if residual value of copper > value of new fibre
09:10<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Right, but this is also a bit risky, since it can lead you to some completly false track, or improve your skills.
09:10<@orudge>SpComb: rip them all up and profit!
09:10<@orudge>(rip them up and replace them with fibre, that is)
09:11<Pinkbeast>... what if you account for fibre being less likely to be nicked by the chavousie?
09:12<@orudge>Pinkbeast: alas, they're stupid enough not to realise that fibre isn't copper, or so it seems
09:12<@orudge>at least in the UK, there are often reports of fibre cable breaks due to people trying to nick it
09:12<@orudge>without realising that it's basically worthless
09:12<Pinkbeast>But the more fibre you install, the less true that will be.
09:12<@orudge>if you go about educating the thieves, maybe ;)
09:12<norbert79>orudge: So does it happen in Hungary too. Last time some main line was cut by some morons, total loss of Internet around one area of Hungary.
09:13<Pinkbeast>Even without education - in the extreme case where, say, there is _never_ copper to be found, even chavs will figure it out
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: that's a case of bad topology
09:14<Elukka>i remember an ICE-3 crashed with a freight train in the netherlands a while back due to thieves snagging some copper from the track circuit, then rewiring it so that everything looks like it works
09:15<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Those, who look for copper can be very ingenious finding the weak points, and then realizing no gain
09:15<Elukka>luckily at low speed
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: aren't there supposed to be axle counters for this?
09:16<norbert79>Elukka: In Hungary some copper-thieves rewired some power circuits, but then after a failure in the system the electician company eON also did some repairs, so they switched everything back, causing an overload in the systems. A block of flats lost their electrical gadgets
09:16<Elukka>eddi, don't know about the details
09:16<Elukka>trains crashed anyhow
09:17<Elukka>it makes me wonder how easy that sort of thing would be to sabotage for most damage, were someone so inclined
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: that's a case of security-relevant infrastructure not being redundant enough
09:17<Elukka>why hijack a plane if you can just make trains crash on their own
09:17<norbert79>Elukka: it wasn't by the mistake of eON, actually it turned out, that the theives put the system to a different circuit causing the overload peak.
09:17<norbert79>Elukka: Well, think on Spain 2005. Wasn't pleasent...
09:18<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Securing a system in the wide-open is much more difficult, than in-doors
09:18<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Especially when we talk about copper-thieves
09:18<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: afaik the DB has regular problems with such
09:19<norbert79>as well
09:19<SpComb>one of these days something it going to cause the cell phone networks to break (a proper CME event?) and then people will realize why we once had landlines
09:19<norbert79>SpComb: According to EU law there is a minimum requirement of land-phones to be present in every town.
09:19<@orudge>SpComb: landlines are for ADSL, clearly!
09:19<norbert79>SpComb: If I can recall well
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>copper theft occures fairly regularly, i suppose
09:20<Elukka>CMEs can very well hurt the electric grid as a whole too
09:20<norbert79>Well, yet there are already land-lines present, which are based on the recent VoIP techniques too. I wonder how reliable those would be in case of a catastrophic event.
09:20<Elukka>landlines could die too
09:21<Elukka>"Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases even shocking telegraph operators.[6] Telegraph pylons threw sparks and telegraph paper spontaneously caught fire.[7] Some telegraph systems appeared to continue to send and receive messages despite having been disconnected from their power supplies.[8]"
09:21<Elukka>CME in 1859
09:21<norbert79>back to old-school: Turn-phones :)
09:21<SpComb>or someone breaks 3G chipers or whatever
09:21<@Belugas>hello
09:21<norbert79>hey Belugas
09:22<@Belugas>hi norbert79
09:22*SpComb doesn't know where he'd find a landline
09:22<Elukka>our power grids are another thing that seem to me like they're not nearly redundant enough
09:22<Elukka>*zzzap*
09:22<Elukka>*civilization halts for a week*
09:23<norbert79>would be interesting to see...
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>the german power grid is said to be seriously underdeveloped
09:23<norbert79>security would be the first problem
09:23<norbert79>as soon the power is out, looting starts
09:24*SpComb doesn't know what he'd do if he lost internet access for a week
09:24<SpComb>don't even have a radio :)
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>and with the "energy revolution" about to come, wind power is mainly generated in the north, while highest power consumption is happening in the south
09:24<Elukka>not necessarily, there was a big power outage in a couple states in the US a few weeks back and i didn't hear of any looting
09:24<norbert79>SpComb: Easy to try. Don't turn on your PC for a week
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>aren't you like legally required to own a radio? :)
09:24<Elukka>though it didn't last for a day
09:24<SpComb>norbert79: phone counts
09:24<norbert79>Elukka: US... That's the main point here :))
09:25<norbert79>Elukka: Imagine the same around a different place, where the police-force is much weaker
09:25<SpComb>and said big power outage in south california was apparently caused by some worker doing some maintenance work wrong :)
09:26<SpComb>tripping some big power line and then chain-reacting to the entire state
09:26<norbert79>Lovely design :)
09:26<Elukka>it's amazing it's possible for one person to brick the the power grid by mistake
09:26<SpComb>or rather, one failure to cascade
09:26<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: nah, those are "strategic" power outages so the power companies can present a reason why they need more money
09:26<SpComb>I thought those ended with enron :)
09:27<norbert79>Elukka: Since outsourcing, everything can happen. Just think on the "big-thumb" term coming from the financial sector
09:27<SpComb>although I've heard some really bizarre stories about californian energy utility privtization
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, right :p
09:27<SpComb>the regulations caused it to become some kind of self-feeding loop of madness
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>california, the land of neo-liberal ultra-capitalism
09:28<Eddi|zuHause>where the govenment is useless enough that nobody actually cares that they have no money
09:29<Elukka>:D
09:29<norbert79>I doubt this is limited to CA/US only :)
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>but when an unimportant-in-the-grand-scheme country like greece runs out of money over here, all hell breaks loose
09:33<Elukka>i like how our economy is built so that if it's not growing fast enough, it's in crisis
09:34<Elukka>you'd think it'd be in crisis when it's shrinking
09:34<Elukka>but no, it's in crisis when the rate at which it is growing is slowing down
09:34<Pinkbeast>... the minor detail that endless growth in a finite space is clearly impossible seems to have escaped us
09:34<Elukka>indeed
09:35<Elukka>it's either growing ever faster or crashing
09:35<Elukka>no stable state
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>there is no stable state in nature
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's a myth
09:35<Eddi|zuHause>things are growing until they fall apart
09:36<Pinkbeast>I really do find this remarkable. We know perfectly well what happens when you put two bunnies in a big field of grass; you have more and more bunnies until all the grass is eaten, and then most of the bunnies die. But let the economy grow like the bunnies and it'll all be fine.
09:36<Eddi|zuHause>the question is how often that happens
09:36<Elukka>usually in nature that will result in some sort of state that is stable in the long term
09:37<Elukka>take that time when organisms figured out how to photosynthesize
09:37<Elukka>oxygen content in the atmosphere increased catastrophically and killed most everything
09:38<Elukka>but then it settled down to around 20% oxygen
09:38<Elukka>it fluctuates but it's stable enough to stay around roughly that number
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>high oxygen level increases chance of a catastrophic fire outbreak
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: but this fluctuation is the important part. natural systems are not clean sinus curves, like biology lessons suggest. it's growth until something triggers, and then it falls apart fast
09:42<Elukka>sure, but it can keep going for a billion years or two
09:42<Elukka>our market economy seems rather more precarious
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09:44<Pinkbeast>A billion years> er but not without constant catastrophic events. Even good old Triceratops only made it to 3 million.
09:46<Elukka>yeah but the atmosphere is still breathable
09:46<Elukka>and in fact dinosaurs are still flying about :P
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>oxygen levels have high correlation with ice ages, so 100.000-ish years is probably a more accurate frequency
09:47<Pinkbeast>The atmosphere is still breathable> if you'll accept that as meaning nothing too bad has happened, the market economy hasn't collapsed because we still use money. :-)
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09:49<Eddi|zuHause>my optical mouse has somehow problems with black surfaces
09:50*Pinkbeast remembers the old Sun optical mice that only worked on a metal mousemat with a specific grid pattern
09:50<Elukka>hmm. new railworks tomorrow
09:50<Pinkbeast>Elukka> That was my thought too.
09:50<Elukka>it doesn't seem to have what i so much wish it would, though... new playable content
09:51<Pinkbeast>I'm really hoping they've made at least some interface improvements
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09:52<Pinkbeast>In particular, it would be really nice if user-controllable junctions were shown in the F4 track guide, to avoid the usual problem where you basically have to guess where you're expected to start controlling the points.
09:53<Elukka>i'd hope there was an easier way to identify tracks too
09:53<Elukka>"Go to Templecombe Upper Yard 7"
09:53<Elukka>have fun counting tracks and figuring out which label is which track
09:54<Elukka>do tell me if you happen to find any interesting routes/scenarios
09:54<Pinkbeast>Also to see the driver and fireman's controls _at the same time_
09:54<Pinkbeast>UK train sim have quite a lot of download stuff, some of which is quite good, but they charge a once-off fee for access (not a lot IIRC
09:55<Elukka>any particular ones to recommend? i remember browsing it once upon a time but didn't find much that's very finished
09:55<Elukka>and sometimes i wish there was something else than UK stuff for a change, though i'll take what i can right now
09:56<Pinkbeast>Hard to say, I haven't played since er about the time they announced Railworks 3
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09:57<Elukka>hm.
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09:58<Elukka>as for the official payware, i wish they'd make more complete expansion packs rather than mostly separate locomotives and stuff
09:59<Pinkbeast>Complete new areas I think represent a vast amount of work... do you have a version with Newcastle-York included?
10:00<Pinkbeast>I confess, I'd really like to see the North York Moors Railway in Railworks.
10:05<Elukka>i do have newcastle-york
10:06<Elukka>the black 5 scenario was pretty great
10:06<Pinkbeast>Career Mode added a lot of scenarios, albeit with that silly scoring system.
10:06<Elukka>luckily the scoring doesn't really matter
10:08<Elukka>complete new routes are indeed a vast amount of work, but if they can make nearly a dozen routes for the game they can make one for an expansion pack
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10:48<Player>hi
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10:51<Elukka>hi
10:51<@Terkhen>hi Player
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11:08<George>Hi
11:08<George>Compatibility question
11:09<George>If the GRF, that is the new version of the other GRF, and has the same ID, defines other layouts on the industry ID, what bugs may it lead to?
11:11<@planetmaker>Easy solution: Just keep the layout but de-activate it (and use dummy graphics, if you want to remove / change the associated graphics)
11:11<George>I want to understand, should I change the GRF ID in case I replace layots for the industry, or I can leave the GRFID uncanged?
11:11<@planetmaker>no, just increase the min_compatible version
11:11<@planetmaker>or... make the layout unavailable for building
11:11<@planetmaker>Then it's 100% safe
11:13<@planetmaker>A grfID change is (for OpenTTD) not necessary anymore
11:13<@planetmaker>even for incompatible changes
11:13<@planetmaker>if via action14 the min_compatible_version is set to where it was changed
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11:15<@planetmaker>check callback 0x28, variable 86 for the layout
11:17<@planetmaker>and make it easy for you to display just a plain concrete tile for each tile of that layout (no lengthy whatever :-) )
11:17<@planetmaker>I'm not 100% positive whether something worse will happen than wrong graphics, if you change an existing layout
11:18<@planetmaker>Last time I did that, it worked for me in a test game, but... results looked funky
11:18<George>do I need any check for layout if I set Minimal compatible GRF version
11:18<@planetmaker>No. Then you made sure one cannot update a savegame to that new version and you don't have to worry
11:18<@planetmaker>It's like a new grfID in pre-action14 times
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11:19<@planetmaker>btw, set the min compatible version after you set the version
11:19<George>Why?
11:19<@planetmaker>otherwise it will be ignored
11:20<@planetmaker>set as in sequence to define it in the sprite(s)
11:20<@planetmaker>possibly the NewGRF wiki needs to mention that... I just stumbled over it the other day
11:20<George>I, found that on the wiki
11:20<@planetmaker>no, wiki already states it
11:21<@planetmaker>yup :-)
11:21<George>Ok. I think I'll simply set the min version
11:21<@planetmaker>yup, increase the version by one and set the min version to the same
11:23<George>Thank you. Just do not want to spend time on all this all code support.
11:23<George>this old code
11:23<@planetmaker>:-) You're always welcome
11:24<@planetmaker>And understandable. I'd do the same if I were you, I guess :-)
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11:42<Eddi|zuHause>now the change-newgrfs-in-running-game gui only needs to mention whether you are upgrading to a compatible or incompatible version of the grf
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11:43<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, as you can't upgrade without removing...
11:44<@planetmaker>and the load gui will tell you, should you overwrite your NewGRF. It will fail to load a game with 'missing NewGRF', if the min_compatible_version is incompatible to what was used before
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yeah, frosch tried to make a patch for upgrading, but something held back that development...
11:45<@planetmaker>probably the fact that 'compatibility information' in principle cannot be trusted
11:46<@planetmaker>it would just be a way to replace one NewGRF by another which would need the same warning as is required now
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>actually that was before action 14
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>when you added a grf with same id, it would ask you whether you want to replace the one you already have on the list
11:54<@planetmaker>hm, did it?
11:54<@planetmaker>I can't remember that functionality :-)
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>because it was never really implemented ;)
11:56<@planetmaker>ah, you mean only that patch allowed that? Ok :-)
11:57<@planetmaker>it probably still would make sense. E.g. with scenario_developer active
11:57<Eddi|zuHause>yep
11:57<@planetmaker>but... I'll wait for the new scenario format with that ;-)
11:57<@planetmaker>which will allow update also for incompatible... thought that comes with a cost, too
11:58<@planetmaker>*though
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12:15<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-263931-breitwandaufmacher-bfav.jpg <- "The imperator is about to take over the senate"
12:15<@planetmaker>:-D
12:15<@Terkhen>:P
12:16<@Terkhen>at least there he's only taking over the senate
12:16<@planetmaker>it's the German parliament actually...
12:16<__ln__>can't see the sparks
12:16<@Terkhen>:P
12:17<@Terkhen>I know, what I mean is that a month ago it seemed as if he took over the entire country here
12:17<Sacro>why does "if 'written' in line:" not work?
12:17<Eddi|zuHause>he's earning quite a bit of resistance over here
12:18<@Terkhen>yes, I heard :P
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>and criticism
12:18<@Terkhen>not here, though
12:18<@planetmaker>which reminds me somehow on "Michelangelo see the pope" by Monty Python: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1IJiAXjj7k
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: depends on what you want it to do
12:19<Sacro>well
12:19<@Terkhen>planetmaker: that one is awesome :P
12:19<Sacro>ahh
12:19<Sacro>because I wanted line[0]
12:19<@planetmaker>it's one of my favourites, yes :-)
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>Sacro: so your variable is misnamed, should be "lines"?
12:21<Sacro>Pssh
12:21<Sacro>no, items is an array of lines
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12:22<@Terkhen>28 disciples disliked this video
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13:17<__ln__>http://www.vgtv.no/#!id=44115
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22951 /trunk/src/lang/ (italian.txt latvian.txt unfinished/basque.txt welsh.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: basque - 25 changes by HerrBasque
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by Snail_
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: latvian - 104 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: welsh - 187 changes by kazzie
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13:52<Wolf01>hello
13:52<appe>olleh!
13:55<@Terkhen>hi
13:55<@Alberth>hi
13:56<__ln__>'night Wolf01
13:56<Wolf01>'night __ln__
13:56<__ln__>hi Wolf01
13:56<Wolf01>:)
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15:00<Elukka>hey, some libertarians want to build their own randian paradise on an artificial island
15:00<Elukka>"Details says the experiment would be "a kind of floating petri dish for implementing policies that libertarians, stymied by indifference at the voting booths, have been unable to advance: no welfare, looser building codes, no minimum wage, and few restrictions on weapons."
15:00<Elukka>this will end well
15:00<Elukka>one could say the project will sink, perhaps literally
15:01<Rubidium>Elukka: pff, just stop all government agencies for a few days
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15:05<Elukka>seems to me an artificial habitat will require more regulation, not less
15:05<__ln__>is everyone very upset by what finland and dutchland did?
15:06<Elukka>i haven't been able to bring myself to care yet
15:08<__ln__>the local news says it caused rage all around europe.
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>anything specific that they did do?
15:09<__ln__>prevented Bulgaria and Romania from joining the schengen area.
15:09<Elukka>prevented romanian and bulgaria from joining the schengen agreement
15:10<Elukka>beaten to it
15:17<Elukka>"rage all around europe" sounds like a rather huge overstatement
15:17<__ln__>Elukka: http://www.iltasanomat.fi/kotimaa/suomi-raivo-herasi-useassa-maassa-lupaukset-petetty/art-1288416007144.html
15:18<Elukka>title says a thing, article doesn't actually talk about it at all
15:19<@Alberth>nobody reads large pieces of text :p
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16:17<__ln__>Good news everyone, the speed of light has finally been exceeded!
16:18<pjpe>maybe
16:19<Elukka>probably not
16:19<Elukka>someone else put it better
16:19<Elukka>"Even the scientists who ran this experiment are being incredibly skeptical of the results, requesting as much outside verification as possible, and so should you. The implications would be astounding but let's wait and see it go through the proper merit review before you get too excited."
16:22<Elukka>it'd be helpful if you could send a beam of light on the same path and measure if it took the same time
16:22<Elukka>if it did, it wouldn't be going faster than light
16:22<Elukka>but you can't
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16:26<Eddi|zuHause>beams of light usually don't travel at light speed
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>actually, there are substances where a beam of light is so slow, you could overtake it on a bike :p
16:27<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: can you ride a bike in such substances?
16:27<Elukka>yes but what they're talking about is obviously speed of light in vacuum
16:27<Elukka>neutrinos are funny
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>probably not, but i think it was a liquid
16:27<Elukka>they just go through entire planets and don't give a crap
16:27<b_jonas>also, is that horizontal? you can go faster on a bike downhill
16:28<__ln__>Elukka: As far as I know there is not much vacuum between France and Italy.
16:29<Elukka>i would assume they're capable of accounting for that
16:29<SpComb>did they rememeber to take earth curvature into account? :)
16:29<SpComb>a haa!
16:29<__ln__>earth is flat, why would there be a curve
16:29<SpComb>right
16:29<Elukka>seems trivial enough
16:29<Elukka>you calculate how long it would take to traverse the distance at c
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: obviously, the earth is curved to the inside. look at your shoes. the most worn down places are the front and the back, so earth must be concave
16:31<frosch123>night
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16:31<__ln__>true
16:31<@Yexo>"Alleen backup geluid is gevonden". <- what kind of translations is that?
16:31<__ln__>a dutch one?
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>Aliens? where?
16:32<Rubidium>Yexo: the one that makes me refuse to use software translated to Dutch if I can
16:32<@Yexo>same for me
16:32<@Yexo>but openttd decided to start with dutch automatically
16:32<@Yexo>even though my windows install is english
16:33<__ln__>should you blame me?
16:33*Rubidium blames ... whoever wrote that bit of code
16:33<__ln__>i think i did, though it was modified by glx before commit.
16:34<devilsadvocate>60 nanoseconds, 17 nanoseconds. Maybe the GPS satellites were out of whack. Maybe their calculations misses some floating point precision related truncation. Maybe someone forgot to sync to an atomic clock, and maybe there is a 'flaw' in NTP that doesnt allow it to sync down to 60 _nanoseconds_. For comparison, typical and gates take about 10-20 ns to switch
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>bug: language detection is too intelligent!
16:34<devilsadvocate>17 meters*
16:34<__ln__>but the whole automatic language selection thing was done with the approval of Tron, you can't argue with that.
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>you can't argue with tron because he's not here... obviously
16:37<Elukka>maybe they accounted for all of that but there's some as-yet-unfound relativistic effect with the earth's gravitational field
16:37<Elukka>maybe whatever
16:37<Elukka>lots of possibilities
16:38<Elukka>which is why they're going "well this is odd, take a look at this to see if you can make sense of it" rather than "WE BROKE THE SPEED OF LIGHT" which is what most of the media is saying
16:39<Rubidium>what is the speed of light anyway? What is the point of reference?
16:40<Elukka>everything
16:41<@Terkhen>:P
16:41<+glx>Yexo: openttd uses what windows tells
16:41<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: it's probably the same as the "we found a new natural force" type of articles from a few months ago
16:41<@Yexo>glx: sure, but I can't find the windows setting
16:42<Rubidium>earth is moving with a few hundred km per second through space, so... some light on one side of the earth would arrive 2000 km/s faster than at the other side
16:42<Elukka>it doesn't matter where you are or at what speed relative to anything you're traveling, speed of light is always c from your perspective
16:42<@Yexo>display and input language are set to english, only format is set to dutch
16:43<b_jonas>Elukka: as in http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1174 ?
16:43<Elukka>kinda :D
16:43<Prof_Frink>Rubidium: The speed of light is slightly faster than the speed at which ones brain melts when trying to understand relativity or quantum.
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: maybe there are system-settings and user-settings?
16:43<@Yexo>there are, all have the same value
16:43<Elukka>light travels at c relative to everything
16:44<Elukka>doesn't matter if you're standing still or in a starship moving at 0.99c, it still looks like it goes at c to you
16:44<Elukka>don't ask me how, scary maths are involved
16:44<b_jonas>oh wait, there's an obligatory link for that:
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>Prof_Frink: understanding 7 dimensional physics is simple. you just imagine it as arbitrary-dimensional and then view 7 as a special case
16:44<b_jonas>http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/
16:45<b_jonas>look under "Speed of Light"
16:45<Elukka>relativity makes very little intuitive sense
16:46<+glx>Yexo: regional parameters maybe
16:46<b_jonas>Elukka: yep
16:46<Prof_Frink>Elukka: And if you have 2 spaceships on a head-on collision course at 0.99c each, the closing speed is somehow still less than c.
16:47<Elukka>yup :D
16:47<Rubidium>so they see eachother coming! ;)
16:47<b_jonas>Rubidium: of course they see each other. they have Sensors. those can detect anything.
16:48<Elukka>well spaceships are pretty easy to detect
16:48<__ln__>unless they're cloaked
16:49<Elukka>it's a serious possibility that if aliens were flying around in our stellar neighborhood we would be capable of detecting them with current technology
16:49<Elukka>their starships, even if they are lightyears away
16:49<Elukka>space is so empty it's a very sensor-friendly environment
16:49<b_jonas>yep
16:49<appe>i guess this is the channel for discussing the OPERA experiment ;)
16:49<appe>im hoping for a round-off error ;)
16:49<Elukka>cloaking doesn't work!
16:50<Prof_Frink>Tell that to the Klingons behind you.
16:50<b_jonas>appe: which one is that? the gravity wave detectors on satellites?
16:51<Elukka>i invested a few bucks in an IR sensor and shot them way before they got to do anything, frink
16:51<appe>the OPERA experiment is the gran sasso > geneva neutrino experiment
16:51<b_jonas>you know, two satellites far of each other sending laser beams and measuring how their phase changes to detect very tiny movement
16:51<appe>where they (according to ereditato) measured the 69 nanosecond difference.
16:52<Elukka>that's what spawned this discussion
16:52<appe>ah, i see.
16:54<appe>i have been following the main particle acellerator for some years now. it suprises me that i didnt already know about the OPERA results.
16:56<Elukka>on a more openttd note, a friend wanted to try compiling it with cargodist for me and to maybe play some multi
16:56<Elukka>apparently it's quite hard and the guide on the wiki doesn't really work
16:56<Elukka>he's trying to cross compile to windows on linux
16:57<b_jonas>cross compiling is always hard
16:57<b_jonas>you shouldn't expect the openttd wiki to guide you there
16:57<Elukka>okay so what way of compiling openttd isn't hard
16:57<Prof_Frink>livid compiling.
16:57<b_jonas>native compiling
16:57<Elukka>but last time i asked people said it's hard on windows but a breeze on linux
16:58<b_jonas>could be
16:58<b_jonas>I never tried on windows
16:58<b_jonas>but cross-compiling from linux to windows can't be easier than native compiling on windows
16:58<Elukka>so when people say it's easy to compile, it means it's easy to compile a linux binary on linux :P
16:58<@Yexo>Elukka: it's easy to compile a windows binary on windows
16:59<Elukka>"Nothing out of the ordinary needs to be done for OpenTTD, just a few options need to be set in Makefile.config. Everthing else should be left unset / set as the default:"
16:59<b_jonas>Elukka: yes
16:59<Elukka>apparently it's not really told what is supposed to be set there
16:59<b_jonas>Elukka: also, these days you need libxz if you want to see the splash screen scenario
16:59<b_jonas>um, wait, it's not called libxz
17:00<b_jonas>whatever that decompression library is
17:00<b_jonas>but if you don't need the splash screen, you don't need it
17:00<Elukka>well, i suppose that's secondary to the game itself working
17:01<Elukka>so, anyone happen to know what that 'nothing out of the ordinary' that needs to be done is?
17:01<b_jonas>Elukka: you don't need to set anything if it works that way
17:01<Rubidium>b_jonas: it's equally hard, or harder, to cross compile a windows binary
17:01<b_jonas>you need to change settings if it doesn't work or doesn't work the way you want
17:01<Elukka>well it doesn't work
17:02<Rubidium>the point is that you need to perform the same steps as you would on windows (install mingw32, compile the libraries and such) with the added difficulty of having to separate native linux and windows libraries
17:02<Rubidium>(and possibly headers as well)
17:02<Elukka>he got it to build a linux version
17:02<Elukka>just not a windows one
17:02<b_jonas>Rubidium: yes, that's what I said, right?
17:03<Rubidium>hmm, guess I highlighted the wrong one... it's too late already
17:04<Rubidium>even then, install MSVC2008 express and then use the given libraries really isn't that hard
17:04<Rubidium>what makes it hard is thinking you follow it by the letter, but somehow don't quite follow it by the letter
17:04<Elukka>this guy trying to do it is way more experienced than me, i wouldn't have a chance
17:04<Rubidium>(and possibly the fact that people think the wiki is outdated and change the old directx sdk link to the newest directx sdk)
17:05<Rubidium>though I agree getting the required stuff for native compiling on Linux is a lot easier
17:06<Elukka>it seems he's done everything according to the guide except the unexplained 'nothing out of the ordinary' parts, and can't get it to compile a windows binary
17:06<Rubidium>but installing the native toolchain on Windows is significantly easier than installing an OSX toolchain on linux
17:07<Elukka>just needs to know what has to be done with the makefile
17:08<@planetmaker>Lool :-)
17:08<@planetmaker>That's probably one of the most difficult things, Rubidium :-)
17:08<@planetmaker>when it comes to compiling
17:08<Rubidium>yep
17:08<@planetmaker>(or many might easily do that)
17:08<Rubidium>cross compiling OpenTTD to DOS is definitely easier
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17:10<Elukka>"the step that's failing on the guide is the 'Nothing out of the ordinary needs to be done for OpenTTD, just a few options need to be set in Makefile.config.'"
17:10<Elukka>"there is no makefile.config or I'm dumb and don't know how to get one"
17:11<Rubidium>Elukka: which guide is that?
17:11<Rubidium>the one that says: valid for versions before r77xx?
17:11<Elukka>http://wiki.openttd.org/Cross_Compiling
17:11<+glx>we droped Makefile.config a very long time ago
17:11<Elukka>well, people said to follow guides on the wiki
17:11<Rubidium>Elukka: that's so horridly ancient
17:11<Elukka>are there more recent ones?
17:12<Rubidium>Elukka: follow the wiki for the native builds
17:12<+glx>usual ./configure --host --build
17:12<+glx>or something
17:12<Rubidium>yep
17:12<Elukka>the wiki for native builds?
17:12<Rubidium>./configure --host=i386-mingw32msvc (for starters)
17:13<Rubidium>it'll probably fail horribly as it tries to pick up native libraries
17:13<Rubidium>Elukka: cross compiling isn't documented as it works like it works for most applications
17:14<Elukka>then i would say it's rather misleading to present 'follow the guides on the wiki' as the solution to compiling
17:15<@planetmaker>Elukka: cross-compiling is nothing one usually needs nor does
17:15<Rubidium>it is to compiling, but it isn't to *cross*-compiling
17:15<@Terkhen>Elukka: I meant of course the native build options
17:15<@Terkhen>I also mentioned specifically MinGW and MSVC
17:15<Elukka>people also mentioned how compiling it is much easier on linux and how in fact i should just go install linux :)
17:15<@Terkhen>if you know how to use consoles, follow the MinGW tutorial
17:16<@planetmaker>you're basically demanding like "if you can read, why can't you read this old-egyptian?!"
17:16<@Terkhen>I updated the tutorial a few weeks ago
17:16<@Yexo>the vs2008 tutorial is also still uptodate
17:16<__ln__>Elukka: compiling is also pretty straight-forward on Mac.
17:18<Elukka>there isn't anything on the wiki guide indicating it's outdated
17:18<@Terkhen>btw, is Openttd doing something special to get line numbers on MSVC stack traces?
17:18<Elukka>the cross compiling one i mean
17:19<@Terkhen>it's a wiki, someone just updated the article with a big "outdated" sign :)
17:20<Elukka>well, now there is :P
17:20<Elukka>thanks
17:21<Rubidium>Terkhen: you mean those in crash.log?
17:21<Rubidium>see os/windows/crashlog_win.cpp
17:21<@Terkhen>I meant the ones in the stacktrace from MSVC
17:21<+glx>MSVC uses the .pdb
17:22<@Terkhen>so, the pdb should include all of that information?
17:22<@Terkhen>at least for MSVC
17:22<+glx>yes like -g for gcc
17:22<@Terkhen>thanks, then I must be doing something wrong :)
17:22<+glx>except it's in an external file
17:23<+glx>you just need to have openttd.exe and openttd.pdb in the same place
17:24<+glx>and pdb must be created at the same time as exe
17:25<+glx>that's why we store pdb next to exe in binaries ;)
17:29<@Terkhen>ok, thanks :)
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17:39<z-MaTRiX>heyho
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17:55<@Terkhen>good night
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17:57<appe>i was thinking about this neutrino thingy
17:57<appe>we measure neutrino mass from supernovas
17:58<@planetmaker>good ngiht
17:58<appe>judging by the standard length between earth and supernovas, we should be able to detect neutrinos several years before supernova accurs, if neutrinos were moving faster then light.
17:58<Elukka>huh.
17:58<Elukka>true
17:59<appe>but we dont, the neutrino "tops" corelates to the photons from the supernova
17:59<__ln__>appe: plural: supernovae
17:59<appe>ah, thank you.
17:59<appe>my science is better then my english, i guess.
17:59<__ln__>*than
17:59<appe>or as someone put it earlier today: typo thursday.
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18:12<Elukka>okay, so the supernovae we're staring at with our telescopes are millions of light years away
18:12<devilsadvocate>appe: nice
18:12<Elukka>if neutrinos were to travel a bit faster than light, so that there's noticeable gap at a distance of hundreds of kilometers... there should be a huge gap at millions of light years
18:12<devilsadvocate>you have my respect
18:12<Elukka>yet obviously there isn't
18:13<appe>exactly.
18:14<appe>according to the experiment, a 10.000 light year supernova would have neutrino charges detected >4 years before the actual blast
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18:14<appe>yet, we can measure (read: sudbury neutrino observatory) neutrino charges, and even use them to determine energy and positions of exploding stars
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18:17<appe>at the same time, this is something we can measure ourselves
18:17<appe>normal particle acellerators would have gone bonkers years ago.
18:17<appe>:)
18:19<Elukka>we've picked up neutrinos from a supernova 6 million light years away in another galaxy
18:19<Elukka>so there should have been quite the gap
18:20<Wolf01>'night
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18:22<appe>correct
18:22<appe>though
18:23<Elukka>...they'd have arrived way before we started to observe neutrinos
18:23<appe>since there arent any released peer reviewed paper on this yet, im asuming something might be wrong.
18:23<appe>what we talk about above here is absolute clear to any particle physicist
18:23<Elukka>we haven't observed a single supernova in our galaxy
18:23<Elukka>well we have but wiki says the latest was in the 17th century
18:24<appe>we dont have to. the neutrino we detect today is enough the make out the position and energy of a given supernova, even before we observe the photons.
18:24<appe>so it's quite safe to say we already know the given speed of the given neutrino :)
18:25<appe>what actually interests me more is what kind of neutrino they created
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18:25<appe>as far as i know, crasching hydrogen core protons on a graphite target makes electron neutrino with masses smaller then two electron volts
18:25<Elukka>but in the hypothetical scenario that they do indeed move faster than light, supernova observations doesn't necessarily rule it out
18:26<appe>a supernova might create tauon-neutrinos with <18MeV.
18:26<appe>-hueg- difference.
18:26<appe>and: huge difference in mass = huge difference in terms of relativity.
18:27<appe>one might guess.
18:27<Elukka>if they can't figure this out, they should repeat the experiment in vacuum...
18:27<appe>Elukka: well, no. that's the issue.
18:27<Elukka>seems likely they'll figure it out somehow though
18:27<appe>the OPERA test was 4*15000 collisions with the same amount of neutrino "bunch tops".
18:27<appe>yeah
18:28<Elukka>problem with this is you can't send photons on the same path to see if they travel at a slower speed?
18:28<Elukka>erm
18:28<appe>even if im as sceptical as the claim is bold - im very excited. these are real CERN people with real CERN gear, and they usually doesnt mock shit around.
18:28<Elukka>that wasn't supposed to be a question
18:28<Elukka>accidental question mark
18:29<appe>you actually can. if you have particle acellerator with a tauon neutrino gun, you can compare the two side by side.
18:29<appe>and we have the technology to build it right now
18:30<appe>we also have the technology to build an orion star ship
18:30<appe>catch my drift :,(
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18:32<Elukka>heh
18:32<Elukka>i meant they can't currently repeat the experiment with light, since light doesn't very well travel through a few hundred kilometers of rock
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18:33<Elukka>and orion is kinda weak and slow for a starship :P
18:34<Elukka>(it's very telling of just how much energy a real starship would need when a load full of nuclear bombs is insufficient)
18:34<appe>why use rock when you can use an acellerator? luckely, we have long enough been able to detect photons in such a way, that removing the numbers created from the (not so perfect) vakuum of the acellerator, we can run it, examin it and theoreticly compare it with the data from the neutrino.
18:35<appe>Elukka: well, the orion project was indeed a thing of the past. people had to put their nukes somewhere. :P
18:35<appe>to quote carl sagan: "dear mr. president. i have a perfect place for you to store your missiles. wink."
18:36<Elukka>it remains the most powerful spacecraft engine we could build
18:37<Elukka>probably will for a good long while
18:37<appe>really?
18:37<appe>what of ion propulsion?
18:37<MNIM>ion propulsion? hah
18:37<Elukka>there aren't many engines that provide both high thrust and specific impulse (fuel efficiency essentially)
18:38<Elukka>ion engines provide maybe a thousandth or less of orion's thrust at around the same specific impulse
18:38<MNIM>a thousandth may be overstating the ion engine
18:38<Elukka>yeah
18:38<MNIM>a millionth, more like it
18:39<Elukka>we have engines with excellent thrust but really crappy specific impulse (chemical rockets)
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18:39<Elukka>and engines with excellent specific impulse but really crappy thrust (ion)
18:39<MNIM>ion engines (currently) have a horrible trust/weight ratio
18:39<Elukka>they always will
18:40<Elukka>the type of engine just doesn't provide for much thrust
18:41<Elukka>we could also build nuclear thermal rockets which, very roughly, have half a chemical rocket's thrust but double its specific impulse
18:41<Elukka>there's also VASIMR of course
18:41<Elukka>which should generate rather more useful amounts of thrust than ion engines at a comparable specific impulse
18:41<MNIM>currently, at this very moment, the best compromise between trust/weight/specific impulse is a LOX+LOH engine
18:42<Elukka>depends, kerosene is usually better for launch vehicle first stages
18:42<__ln__>not thrust by any chance
18:42<MNIM>ehh, depends how you look at it.
18:42<MNIM>kerosene simply has less energy/unit of fuel
18:43<Elukka>yes but it's way denser
18:43<devilsadvocate>ion propulsion is more useful in vaccum
18:43<MNIM>exactly, that's the major difference.
18:43<Elukka>devil, it doesn't even work outside vacuum
18:43<MNIM>oh it works.
18:43<devilsadvocate>Elukka: it does
18:43<Elukka>does it? hm.
18:44<Elukka>well, it doesn't provide any useful amount of thrust in anything but vacuum
18:44<devilsadvocate>its just that nothing would actually move
18:44<MNIM>but training a fly to push against the rocket will provide more thrust
18:45<devilsadvocate>but for deep space propulsion, hooking up ion accelerators to the spacecraft is right now the best bet for a reasonable propulsion system
18:45<Elukka>i think nuclear thermal or VASIMR are the best bets
18:45<MNIM>the key here is *deep* space
18:45<Elukka>nuclear thermal if you want something you can be sure works
18:46<devilsadvocate>you still need an ejectable mass
18:46<Elukka>yeah, usually hydrogen
18:46<MNIM>uhhh, I doubt thermonuclear rockets will ever be man-rated
18:46<Elukka>why not?
18:46<Elukka>they built a flight-ready upper stage nuclear thermal rocket for the Saturn V
18:46<devilsadvocate>thermal may not provide sufficient thrust for a reasonable mass
18:46<Elukka>it was just never flown
18:46<MNIM>well, did you read over that past few times that we mentioned /thermonuclear/?
18:47<MNIM>that's hardly an argument, elukka.
18:47<Elukka>nuclear thermal rockets are simply a reactor that heats a working mass
18:47<Elukka>no exploding involved
18:47<MNIM>they've built thermonuclear trains and aircraft!
18:47<Elukka>devilsadvocate, thrust to weight ratios of 30 or so have been achieved
18:47<devilsadvocate>Elukka: 'heating' things to speed them up isnt as efficient as accelerating them
18:47<devilsadvocate>(otherwise)
18:48<Pinkbeast>Surely for trains it is easier to leave the nuclear reactor besides the railway line
18:48<Elukka>aerojet says LOX can be injected in a kind of afterburner at the cost of some isp, increasing thrust by at least 50%
18:48<devilsadvocate>to accelerate them, you may ultimately end up using a nuclear reactor as the power source
18:48<Elukka>um
18:48<devilsadvocate>but thermal acceleration is just, meh
18:48<Elukka>a nuclear thermal rocket is a nuclear reactor that heats a working mass that is expelled out the nozzle
18:48<appe>..and that sucks.
18:49<Pinkbeast>I don't see why a thermonuclear rocket couldn't be man-rated
18:49<appe>exploding yourself away is not really an option for deep space
18:49<devilsadvocate>it has like the suckiest efficiencies you can come up with
18:49<Elukka>it has the second most thrust right after chemical rockets
18:49<appe>exploding yourself into orbit and continuing on ion propulsion is the key, if you ask me.
18:49<devilsadvocate>and for it to last, you need a shitload of mass
18:49<Elukka>i wouldn't call a thrust to weight ratio of 30 and a specific impulse of 1000 seconds very crummy
18:49<Pinkbeast>Elukka> er so why not chemical rockets then?
18:49<devilsadvocate>and then you need more fuel to move the fule
18:49<Elukka>because a nuclear thermal rocket has more than double the specific impulse, pinkbeast
18:50<appe>i guess you are talking about exothermic reactive fuel when you say "chemical rockets"?
18:50<Pinkbeast>How long will it be before I mention Project Orion oh wait
18:50<Elukka>the discussion started with orion :P
18:50<devilsadvocate>Elukka: i'm not talking about a single shot, i'm talking about something that you can turn on and off for extended period of time
18:50<appe>the discussion started with neutrino :(
18:50<Elukka>NTRs aren't single shot
18:51<devilsadvocate>its much easier and more efficient to try to accelerate ions than to heat everything up
18:51<Pinkbeast>Have we had "Supporters of Project Orion felt that it had potential for cheap interplanetary travel, but it lost political approval over concerns with fallout from its propulsion.", which must be roughly the dryest sentence on Wikipedia
18:51<Elukka>heat everything up?
18:51<Elukka>you're just heating up propellant that's piped through the reactor
18:51<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/NERVA.jpg
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18:52<Elukka>project orion and nuclear thermal are entirely different
18:53<Elukka>at any rate, any fast deep space propulsion system will involve a nuclear reactor
18:53<devilsadvocate>and the generally isotropic nature of thermal modes means you end up losing energy
18:53<Elukka>be it VASIMR or an actual nuclear rocket
18:53<Elukka>it's still more than doubly as efficient as a chemical rocket
18:53<devilsadvocate>sure, you need some energy source
18:53<Pinkbeast>Elukka> entirely different> I know, I'm just babbling
18:54<Pinkbeast>How deep is the "deep space" you are envisaging?
18:55<Elukka>interplanetary
18:55<Elukka>say for a mars mission
18:55<Pinkbeast>Orion makes getting to Mars easy. :-)
18:55<Elukka>devilsadvocate, note that a nuclear thermal rocket doesn't generate electricity, so the thermal power of the reactor isn't wasted
18:56*Pinkbeast and Wednesday saw George Dyson interview Freeman Dyson about it; they wanted to sent a manned mission to Jupiter.
18:56<Elukka>at any rate, the numbers work out
18:56<Elukka>it's good enough to be useful
18:57<Elukka>http://www.astronautix.com/engines/timnd250.htm
18:57<Elukka>timberwind nuclear thermal rocket specs
18:57<Elukka>developed by the US department of energy, of all things
18:58<appe>hehe, dyson.
18:58<appe>that's actually a life's goal
18:58<appe>a complete dyson sphere
18:58<appe>better start working
18:58<Pinkbeast>"A life"?
18:59<Elukka>timberwind could be good enough to be used on a launch vehicle
18:59<Pinkbeast>Even if I believed in a shiny Larry Niven technological future where growth continues forever I would be pleasantly surprised if a Dyson sphere was built in a timeframe where the builders were recognisably human.
18:59<Elukka>and in space it has enough thrust to make use of the oberth effect in contrast to low thrust engines like VASIMR
19:00<Pinkbeast>... pleasantly surprised other than being long dead. :-)
19:00<Elukka>heh
19:00<Pinkbeast>PS, Elukka, _when_ tomorrow do you think they're releasing Railworks 3?
19:00<appe>the thing is, we will never need a dyson sphere
19:00<appe>never ever.
19:00<Elukka>the launcher says 1 am UK time, so... an hour-ish?
19:01<Elukka>http://www.astronautix.com/graphics/r/rd0410.jpg
19:02<Elukka>the soviets did some things with nuclear rockets too
19:02<Pinkbeast>Hmmmm. I suspect Heather will not be overly enchanted if I tell her to stay home tonight.
19:02<Elukka>i don't think it got as far as the american versions though
19:02<Elukka>well um
19:02<Elukka>it's released now
19:02<Elukka>right now
19:02<Elukka>steam just started updating at this second
19:04<Pinkbeast>Vade retro, Steam.
19:06<Elukka>hey, steam is fast for a change
19:06<Elukka>won't take more than an hour or so to download
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19:09*Pinkbeast throws the switch marked "rei", see you in a bit...
19:19-!-hanf^ [~Klaus@host-89-241-65-90.as13285.net] has joined #openttd
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19:21<z-MaTRiX>hi
19:22<z-MaTRiX>howcome fullscreen is broken on linux in 1.1.1 ?
19:22<z-MaTRiX>the top of the picture is screwed
19:22<z-MaTRiX>in all resolutions
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>don't report bugs for 1.1.1
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>update to 1.1.3 and check whether it still exists
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>(although i presume that to be a problem specific to your system)
19:25<z-MaTRiX>ah okay anyway the 1.05 has it too
19:25<z-MaTRiX>there is something with the video mode
19:25<z-MaTRiX>;/
19:25-!-hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-188-114.as13285.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:26<z-MaTRiX>now the whole X11 went crazy
19:28-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d820530.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!]
19:30<Elukka>guy trying to compile a windows binary on linux would like to know if /configure --host=i486-mingw32 suffices for cross compilation
19:31<+glx>probably not enough
19:33<Eddi|zuHause>what's preventing you from compiling on windows?
19:34<z-MaTRiX>changed the x11 frequency to 60-75-85hz then back to 75hz and its normal again, the lines gone... what can cause this?
19:34<Elukka>i don't have the knowhow to compile, he started doing it on linux on the assumption it was easier
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: nothing in openttd can cause this
19:34<z-MaTRiX>was thinking about some wrong mode setting in SDL
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: it's either your screen, or your graphics driver
19:35<Elukka>glx: any idea what more is needed?
19:35<@Yexo>Elukka: compiling on windows for windows is definitely easier than compiling on linux for windows
19:35<@Yexo>compiling on linux for linux is even easier
19:35<+glx>you need to cross compile required libs
19:35<+glx>then pass the path to cross-compiled libs to configure
19:36<z-MaTRiX>yeah for linux, just uncompress, then ./configure --enable-debug=3 --without-liblzo2
19:36<z-MaTRiX>and make
19:36<+glx>it's way easier to compile natively on windows
19:38<Pinkbeast>Elukka> not to add to the tide, but I just followed the instructions on the wiki to compile natively on Windows and it Just Worked (tm)
19:38<Pinkbeast>(with MinGW)
19:44<z-MaTRiX>someone working on generalization?
19:44<z-MaTRiX>right now there are many version games being hosted
19:45<z-MaTRiX>į already have 5 versiont compiled
20:03<Eddi|zuHause>that won't ever change
20:04<Eddi|zuHause>you will never be able to join a server that does not run the exact same version as you are
20:07-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1AA37.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:14<z-MaTRiX>2 perl instances hung while compiling openttd 1.1.3
20:14<z-MaTRiX>at linking binary
20:15<z-MaTRiX>Linux matrix.arpa 3.0.3-rt12 #12 SMP PREEMPT RT Fri Sep 2 19:05:55 CEST 2011 x86_64 GNU/Linux
20:17<z-MaTRiX>ok then į reboot
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---Logclosed Fri Sep 23 00:00:18 2011