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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-23

---Logopened Fri Sep 23 00:00:18 2011
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02:54*norbert79 is listening to Madeon - Pop Culture @ [320kbps]
02:56<norbert79>I thought I haven't got this autmatically enabled
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03:30<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:53<norbert79>Gesundheit appe! Morning planetmaker, Eddi|zuHause, Terkhen
03:57<appe>how is the realm doing?
03:57<appe>flourishing with potatoes and plague?
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07:59<Markk>With a space in between.
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>Mr. Gutentag is a character in family guy
08:00<Markk>Is "Zahltag" deprecated or is it still in use?
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's generally understood
08:00<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: Yes, a very nice old man. ;)
08:00<Markk>Eddi|zuHause: Mkay
08:01<Markk>Is there a "newer" or a more modern word for it.
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>not that i know of
08:01<Markk>Like, could you say: "Yay, Zahltag und Freitag!"?
08:04<appe>halt! hammerzeit!
08:04*appe dances
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08:12<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Hah, just realized you watch the translated version of Family Guy... Well, the English is still funnier :)
08:12<norbert79>Dho you lihke pohpschtickles? :)
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: no, he's called that in the english version
08:12<appe> <- good reading.
08:13<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Which series? Can't recall the character, despite seen all...
08:13<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: I mean which episode
08:13<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: The puppetmaker?
08:13<Markk>The old nazi camp guard.
08:13<norbert79>Markk: I that one. He didn't last long :) Loved the fight-scene :DD
08:14<norbert79>Yet calling Falco a German, well, that was a tiny bit of an insult ;-)
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08:16<MNIM>to the germans, or falco?
08:16<norbert79>For me, cause I love Falco
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>can't really call that german what he speaks in his songs :p
08:19<norbert79>Falco - Der Komissar
08:19<norbert79>Chriss replies to his singing: Taht was the most German thing I have ever done
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i know
08:20<norbert79>And yes, he speaks the exact lines, but with a terrible fake German accent :)
08:22<norbert79> he wouldn't even try... I really find pity seeing movies, where a german character is played by one, who's look nor the talk gets even close to the real thing. Like Tom Cruise... :)
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>there are really worse things than that scene
08:23<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Let's not get Family Guy that serious. Besides, at least Germans are there to be seen, not many countries or people coming from specific countries are mentioned there anyway.
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>there was another scene (not sure which episode) where they mention an excerpt of the Struwwelpeter :)
08:25*norbert79 thinks through all 9 seasons... Please wait...
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>"In der achten Staffel der US-amerikanischen Zeichentrickserie "Family Guy" (Folge: "Business Guy") wurde "Die Geschichte vom Daumenlutscher" in Form einer für die Serie typischen Zwischensequenz parodiert"
08:26<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r22952 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix: properly limit the length of strings in a choice list
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08:29<norbert79>I never could really understand Wikipedia's policy. The episode with the time-travel, where Steview and Brian go back in time to 1939.09.01, there is a reference to 99 Luftballon in the bunker scene. Now even though that was obvious for everyone who watched the show, and it got also included in the entry, it got removed all the time, because no other website was mentioning it, than Like if it would depend on it.
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08:33<Brianetta>norbert79: It's easy to understand Wikipedia's policy. Its just not easy to understand all the harebrained interpretations of it.
08:33<appe>norbert79: jeez, i didn't know that!
08:34<norbert79>appe: If sarcasm or not, has all the data, even those, which Wikipedia rejected.
08:34<norbert79>Brianetta: I just simply gave up Wikipedia, almost trying avoiding it, there is still no good alternative to it.
08:35<Brianetta>conservapedia (:
08:35<Brianetta>PLEASE don't take that as a recommendation
08:35<Brianetta>or, in fact, anything other than a bad joke
08:35<norbert79>I had a hunch, that smiley might have a value :)
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08:38<Elukka>conservapedia is glorious
08:38<Elukka>amazingly deluded and insane
08:39<norbert79>Elukka: Unprecise too, just reading the entry on Hungary... Already found some incorrect points.
08:40<norbert79>and it lacks a huge ammount of information
08:40<Elukka>well their focus is on their fundamentalist religion
08:41<Sacro>Morning Brianetta (:
08:45<norbert79>Elukka: Oh my god, the Hungarian Army's logo is taken from a '5 second webpage' site, done by someone, and is about a fictious material, which has nothing to do with real life. Trustworthy site my ...
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08:45<norbert79>Elukka: - Huge, damn huge fail here
08:46<Elukka>try reading the article on, say, evolution :D
08:46<norbert79>Elukka: I can imagine...
08:46<norbert79>Elukka: Let's read something about your country.
08:47<norbert79>Elukka: I am curious
08:48<norbert79>Elukka: Not suprised, limited as hell...
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08:50<Elukka>their articles on things not related to their politics or religion are mostly just weak but not really terrible
08:51<Elukka>also they call everything they dislike liberal
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08:51<norbert79>like mathematics? :) Becuase things related to History, their knowledge seems to be way below the elemntary school system.
08:51<Elukka>evolution? liberal! geology? liberal as hell
08:51<Elukka>healthcare? gosh darned liberal
08:52<Elukka>well see the school system is liberal too so they don't go to school
08:52<Elukka>(not even kidding)
08:52<norbert79>*facepalm* Tell me please you are kidding...
08:52<Elukka>they love homeschooling
08:52<norbert79>Remarks me to the Duggert Family... Wait, let me show you:
08:54<norbert79>And their favorite:
08:55<norbert79>Lovely people prasising some non-existent things. Worse even, than Star Trek fans ( me ;-) )
08:56<norbert79>Alright, let's stop this rant, everyone belives in whatever would like to, until it doesn't hurt anyone else's finance or beliefs
08:57<norbert79>I think we are getting bit unfair, if we keep this up...
08:59<Elukka>they can believe what they will but when they start trying to dictate social policy and the morality of others through their religion, we have a problem
09:00<norbert79>Sure, but many "religious" groups do that too, and that should stop, I agree
09:00<norbert79>"South Park" did a quite nice summary on the cons and pros on home-schooling.
09:03<Elukka>for these people it's just a method of brainwashing their kids
09:03<Elukka>making sure they don't even hear of anything else
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09:10<@Belugas>hi you sir :)
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09:51<dihedral>owen - feeling any better?
09:57<@orudge`>dihedral: in what way? In terms of my cold, a little
09:58<dihedral>yes - that was what i meant :-)
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10:12<Elukka>Pinkbeast: lighting improvements in ts2012 are quite significant, but performance for me is atrocious on high settings and antialiasing doesn't work
10:13<Elukka>have you tried it yet?
10:16<Elukka>off tyne yard, certainly looks better than it used to
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11:38<Elukka>sciencing about them neutrinos
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11:44<Rubidium>looks like a pretty boring after presentation discussion
11:45<Elukka>i can't make any sense of it
11:48<Elukka>if this is the newer start screen, why am i still getting the old arctic one?
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11:59<Rubidium>you're not using the 1.1 branch (or any of its derivatives)
12:00<Rubidium>though... it makes me wonder, why does this experiment prove that neutrinos can go faster than light?
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12:01<Rubidium>wasn't space warped? Maybe the distance is (for whatever reason) shorter than they expect with the current model
12:01<Rubidium>i.e. maybe it proves something resembling a wormhole
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12:04<Elukka>i don't see how that'd do anythign with wormholes
12:04<Elukka>some unaccounted for or undiscovered relativistic effect could do it though
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12:04<Elukka>it doesn't really prove anything goes faster than light, that's just the media's take on thing
12:05<Elukka>CERN is saying something more like "we dunno what's up with these results" and inviting other scientists to check them
12:05<Rubidium>the neutrino enters wormhole and leaves it a couple of kilometers later in less time than it would if it were travelling at c
12:06<Rubidium>so there's just a 20 km wormhole somewhere in that 730 km ;)
12:07<__ln__>Rubidium: time to book your flights to Oslo
12:08<Elukka>yeah i don't think wormholes are involved :P
12:08<__ln__>correction: Stockholm, not Oslo
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12:16<Eddi|zuHause>didn't they promise to create wormholes at CERN? :)
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12:18<Elukka>i don't think so
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12:36<Eddi|zuHause>that was a joke obviously. playing on all these world-end prophecies for when they switched on LHC
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12:38<__ln__>in any case better check often
12:38<Elukka>they have webcams too
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13:37<@planetmaker>hm... neutrinos faster than light?
13:37<@planetmaker>hello Alberth, hello wolf
13:38<@Alberth>didn't you know? very useful for sending fast messages :)
13:39<@planetmaker>travelling at warp 1.000025
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13:40<@planetmaker>but at 6sigma
13:40<@planetmaker>conclusion: we measured it. We took into account everything we know. And we're left with wtf?!
13:40<@peter1138>measurement error
13:41<@planetmaker>Please tell us where we did something wrong
13:41<@planetmaker>peter1138: over three years?
13:41<Elukka>that's essentially what they're saying
13:41<Elukka>the media on the other hand is going NEUTRINOS MOVE FASTER THAN LIGHT!!
13:41<@planetmaker>that's what they write in their abstract
13:41<@planetmaker>and that's what they measure
13:41<Elukka>there's the thing that we picked up neutrinos from this supernova in the 80's
13:41<Elukka>if CERN's numbers were right they should have arrived 4 years earlier
13:41<@planetmaker>yes. 1987a
13:42<@planetmaker>hm... 4 years?
13:42<@Alberth>Elukka: just because some cars travel fast, it does not mean all cars are fast
13:42<@planetmaker>@calc 80000 * 1.000025
13:42<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 80002
13:42<@planetmaker>@calc 80000 * 0.000025
13:42<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 2
13:43<@planetmaker>well. or 2 ;-)
13:43<@Alberth>but it is pretty interesting nonetheless :)
13:43<@planetmaker>if I remember the small magelanic cloud to be 80k LY distant from here
13:43<Elukka>more like 160k
13:43<Elukka>so more like 4 :P
13:44<Rubidium>see... a wormhole is a much better explanation
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13:45<@planetmaker>hm... probably they also considered the different depth in the gravitational potential of Earth slowing down clocks differently
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22953 /trunk/src/lang/ (italian.txt latvian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: italian - 2 changes by lorenzodv
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: latvian - 13 changes by Parastais
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13:47<fjb>Or they forgot to unload the fast_neutrino.grf.
13:47<@planetmaker>or the velocity of light is simply wrong ;-)
13:48<@planetmaker>though that'd be laughable... time can be measured up to 10**-15...
13:48<@Alberth>or the GPS was broken when measuring the distance :)
13:48<@planetmaker>well, but they measure positions continuously
13:48<@planetmaker>they show a graph of the drift of their observation sites over the years.
13:49<@planetmaker>even with a jump attributed to the Aqulia earthquake
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13:49<@Alberth>ie absurdly accurate :D
13:50<@planetmaker>cm to mm. Typical accuracy of differential GPS
13:50<Rubidium>planetmaker: how can the velocity of light be wrong?
13:50<@planetmaker>It can't. It's defined ;-)
13:51<Rubidium>"The metre is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1⁄299 792 458 of a second"
13:51<@planetmaker>yes, the meter is actually a derived unit from the speed of light
13:51<@planetmaker>and the time unit
13:53<@planetmaker>which makes sense. Nothing is more accurately measurable than time
13:53<andythenorth>it's problematic to check though :P
13:53<@planetmaker>hm, no?
13:54<@planetmaker>all you need is a photo-detector and a log-in amplifier
13:54<andythenorth>you don't know if the measuring rod changes length :P
13:54<andythenorth>poincarre iirc
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13:56<@planetmaker>Alberth: they think they got the baselength accurate to 20cm
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14:37<andythenorth>planetmaker: (iirc) it's perfectly plausible in relativity that the geometry causes the length of the measuring rod to vary
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14:37<andythenorth>my philosophy of physics is too hazy too explain it though :P
14:38<@Alberth>just don't travel that fast, it saves you from a lot of trouble :p
14:38<andythenorth>draw a line on a balloon, then inflate the balloon a little is basically the best metaphor for it
14:39<andythenorth>the line gets longer, but If you're on the surface, it's the same length
14:40<@planetmaker>andythenorth: but distances are not measured with a rod. But by travel time of light ;-)
14:40<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22954 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Feature: [NewGRF] Allow Action4 to change text IDs 0x00D1 to 0x00E0 for feature 48.
14:41<andythenorth>there's another thought experiment which proves you can't trust the speed of light to be invariant
14:41<andythenorth>I forget the details :(
14:42<@planetmaker>Also... the length contraction is only apparent, not real. For the experiment in question all no relativistic relative velocities need to be considered.
14:42<andythenorth>but which geometry is 'real'?
14:42<andythenorth>real is a localised concept
14:42<@Alberth>andythenorth: you just get headaches from it :p
14:42<andythenorth>I was never good at maths to really understand it, but I get the basics
14:42<@planetmaker>nah :-) The laws of physics are the same everywhere
14:43<andythenorth>that's contentious
14:43<andythenorth>anyway, they are at least consistent in ttd :P
14:43<andythenorth>although a 'gravitational anomaly' might be an amusing new disaster
14:44<Rubidium>that's called a mine subsidence, isn't it?
14:44<andythenorth>I was thinking of pulling trains back down slopes
14:45<@Alberth>negative gravity is disabled :)
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15:05<__ln__>Wolf01: are you prepared for debris?
15:06<Wolf01>I'm waiting with my arms towards the sky
15:07<Prof_Frink>Wolf01: Do it right.
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15:15<@planetmaker>hm, debian has a nice "i now shut down" sound
15:17<@planetmaker>nice... and the update resulted in kernel panic :S
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15:23<frosch123>faulty boot loader?
15:25<@planetmaker>hm... no. A cold restart made it now come up. Just the reboot requested after the update/grade failed. Strange
15:25<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22955 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix: guard from reading outside the silly name list
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15:27<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r22956 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Codechange: Enhance TEXTID_TO_STRINGID() with an assert_compile().
15:27<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22957 /trunk/src/ (company_cmd.cpp saveload/strings_sl.cpp strings_type.h): -Codechange: SPECSTR_PLAYERNAME is actually the company name, which is derived from the town name + ' Transport'. So make sure the last constant is in sync with the town name table
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15:36<Elukka>hokay. got a new cargodist binary, finally
15:36<andythenorth>you europeans should insist on better canals in-game
15:36<andythenorth>they're not nearly big enough :P
15:36<Elukka>andythenorth: this is built against r22941, but FIRS refuses to run stating it needs r22780 or newer
15:36<Elukka>any idea what's going on?
15:38<@planetmaker>you probably did not update it properly
15:38<@planetmaker>faking the revision won't do it
15:39<@planetmaker>it works with trunk after all :-)
15:40<Elukka>update what?
15:41<@planetmaker>the source code?
15:41<Elukka>err, i see
15:42<@planetmaker>newgrfs check the newgrf version
15:43<Elukka>it certainly is r22941, patched with cargodist for the same
15:43<Elukka>how would one update it properly?
15:45<@planetmaker>well. It works with trunk. So obviously the culprit is somewhere in your update procedure of that patch
15:45<@planetmaker>where there... hard to tell
15:48<Rubidium>or compiling without a proper source repository
15:48<Elukka>it's actually a friend compiling it who has way more experience with this sort of thing than i do, though he hasn't done openttd before
15:48<@planetmaker>oh, yes
15:48<Elukka>would the game still run and work in that case?
15:48<@planetmaker>newgrf versions only get right automatically when compiled from a source repository.
15:49<@planetmaker>using the tar'ed source usually sucks. Especially in these cases
15:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22958 /trunk/src/saveload/ (company_sl.cpp town_sl.cpp): -Fix [FS#4778]: the savegame description and loading of savegames would crash with savegames from a patched stable (which didn't bump the savegame version)
15:49<@planetmaker>ok, so it's even 2nd hand info. Well. He should come here himself.
15:50<@planetmaker>2nd hand too much info get lost
15:50<@planetmaker>but first he should use revision control software :-)
15:51<Elukka>the source was from the snapshot link there
15:52<@planetmaker>he should use svn, hg or git
15:52<@planetmaker>Not the source download as tar ball
15:53<Rubidium>planetmaker: actually, with the proper source tarball the right(ish) thing is done as well
15:54<@planetmaker>also newgrf version?
15:54<@planetmaker>now that you mentioned it, I recall having that issue (long) ago
15:54<@planetmaker>I guess I never since compiled an openttd tar ball
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15:55<Rubidium>planetmaker: it's relatively recent
15:55<@planetmaker>ok, then my experience is outdated
15:55<@planetmaker>still I can't recommend to compile from tar balls ;-)
15:56<Rubidium>that's definitely true
15:56<Elukka>i see
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16:06<Elukka>unrelatedly, a neutrino detector
16:07<andythenorth>planetmaker: find the forest? what forest?
16:07<@planetmaker>yeah :-)
16:07<@planetmaker>trust me, it's in the middle of the screen
16:07<SpComb>I like the smiley-faces down at the bottom
16:07<andythenorth>ctrl-x for trees :P
16:08<@planetmaker>well. I attached that screen, too, didn't I?
16:08*andythenorth usually has trees off, so hadn't noticed that issue before
16:08<andythenorth>the tree bases is a nice idea, but might be a pita
16:08<@planetmaker>oh, FooBar did that for OpenGFX. It's not that difficult to achieve actually
16:09<@planetmaker>and it's a nice idea and looks quite good
16:09<@planetmaker>iirc TTD base set might do similar
16:09<Elukka>happy little neutrino sensors
16:11<@planetmaker>the most difficult thing probably is to draw the tree bases such that it looks good with different kind of trees :-)
16:11<@planetmaker>but it could just be black spots or so.... like for houses
16:11<@planetmaker>and... actually I thought of adding some wood trails to the forests, andy
16:11<@planetmaker>let me dig...
16:16<andythenorth>planetmaker: I wondered about a ground tile overlay
16:16<andythenorth>fence it off :P
16:16<andythenorth>in the uk plantations are fenced
16:16<andythenorth>less so in north america, scandanavia..
16:16<@planetmaker>fences don't suit it IMHO. It's a forest. Not a plantation
16:16<andythenorth>that would be a lot of fence
16:17<andythenorth>draw a moose
16:17<@planetmaker>hm... I only find a screenshot of the dirt _road_, not the trail:
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16:20<@planetmaker>smaller, with sprites similar to this:
16:21<@planetmaker>hm... I only find a screenshot of the dirt _road_, not the trail: <-- shouldn't you have seen that ;-)
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16:22<andythenorth>we shipped roadtypes?
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16:23<@planetmaker>It's just something which I can draw ;-)
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16:29*andythenorth -> bed
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16:38<Elukka>friend tries to compile openttd, ends up cutting himself with beer bottle cap (by accident, supposedly)
16:39<@Terkhen>I don't see the relation :P
16:41<DDR>Elukka: The game has rejected him.
16:41<DDR>Or: Bad luck, ow.
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16:53<Elukka>tyne yard certainly is big
17:16<DDR>Elukka: What game?
17:16<Elukka>or train simulator 2012 which i guess is what they call it now
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17:37<@planetmaker>good night
17:47<@Terkhen>good night planetmaker
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19:15<@Terkhen>good night
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21:12<Malaca1077>any1 there for a info about ttd?
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 24 00:00:19 2011