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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-24

---Logopened Sat Sep 24 00:00:19 2011
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02:34<andythenorth>morn
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03:00<@planetmaker>heya
03:03<V453000>morning
03:05<andythenorth>planetmaker: want to help do a fun FIRS ticket?
03:05<@planetmaker>in principle yes
03:05<@planetmaker>I'm always doing fun tickets ;-)
03:05<andythenorth>I want to give the food market 2 small climate-dependent trees
03:06<andythenorth>currently it has two flower pots
03:06<andythenorth>I'm slicing the graphics a bit more now
03:06<@planetmaker>that's relatively easy
03:06<andythenorth>we can give it foundations at the same time
03:06<andythenorth>easy ticket for a weekend :)
03:06<andythenorth>I'll do my bit now + commit
03:06<V453000>fuck guys I just got an insane idea I _have_ to draw :D
03:07<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I assume you want to use a tree from the default trees?
03:07<andythenorth>base set yes
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03:07<andythenorth>there are some small fir trees and palm trees :)
03:07<@planetmaker>(or tree grf, whatever one uses)
03:08<@planetmaker>yes
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03:13<@planetmaker>hm, foundations?
03:14<andythenorth>black ground detai
03:14<andythenorth>l
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03:24<@planetmaker>andythenorth: what kind of tree? Leaf? fir?
03:24<andythenorth>temperate: leaf; arctic: fir; tropic: cacti
03:24<@planetmaker>good. I'll look
03:26<@Alberth>moin
03:27<andythenorth>hi
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03:32<@planetmaker>hi Alberth
03:43<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:28<Wolf01>morning
04:32<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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05:10<Amis>Hello o/
05:11<Amis>I was wondering if it's possible to set the "No. of towns" setting below "Very low" through some config tweaking or something?
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05:12<@Alberth>not really
05:12<@Alberth>you could generate a map in the scenario editor though
05:13<@Alberth>but that is a bit more work than 1 "generate" button :)
05:13<Amis>Yeah :/
05:14<Amis>Okkkeeey...
05:14<Amis>It IS possible, I just had to upgrade my OpenTTD
05:14<@Alberth>oh?
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05:15<Amis>There's a "Custom" option in 1.13
05:15<Amis>1.1.3*
05:16<@Terkhen>yes :)
05:16<@Terkhen>you will have to scale the value to mapsize manually, though
05:16<Amis>It's still a nice addition
05:16<@Terkhen>:)
05:19<@Alberth>hmm, I must play more openttd :p
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05:20<Amis>Now all you have to add is custom interest rates :>
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05:22<@Alberth>that doesn't fix anything, it just postpones
05:23<Amis>4% is too low :/ you can vegetate with that and not go bankrupt
05:23<@Terkhen>I remember a discussion explaining what would happen in the forums
05:23<@Alberth>you know there are lots of base cost grfs, right?
05:23<@planetmaker>they don't change the interest, though
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05:24<@planetmaker>but indeed changing base costs is the way to get a much steeper challenge
05:24<@planetmaker>more than interest ever could - as that only would affect the beginning
05:24<@planetmaker>i.e. it's usually very tough for people, if you make terraforming really €€€€€€€
05:25*Alberth wonders about a "you were robbed of all your money" disaster
05:25<@planetmaker>like 1 million per tile, 10 million per tile of water
05:25<@planetmaker>it keeps you really from terraforming lots ;-)
05:25<@Terkhen>more money for the rest of stuff!
05:25<@Alberth>I tend not to do much terraforming anyway :)
05:26-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1B25F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
05:27<@planetmaker>but less straight tracks ;-)
05:28<@planetmaker>Alberth: for single player that's usually a non-issue. You can do there what you want.
05:28<@planetmaker>But it's a great way to keep the landscape intact on open multi-player servers :-)
05:28<@Terkhen>yes :)
05:28<@Terkhen>specially the water costs
05:28<@planetmaker>yeah
05:32<Elukka>increased base costs mostly just feel like they slow down the start of the game even more
05:32<Elukka>eventually you'll still have effectively infinite money
05:33<Elukka>well. if it's as drastic as "a million per tile", i suppose that keeps people from terraforming very much :)
05:35<@planetmaker>doesn't increased interest just slow down the start even more either?
05:36<@planetmaker>I mean... after 4 years I have no loan anymore - so where does it play a role then?
05:36<Elukka>yeah, that doesn't do it either
05:36<Elukka>i'm not sure what would
05:36<Elukka>kidnap an economist, make him simplify and abstract a real world model into something fun and playable and make him code a patch
05:37<@Alberth>have a contract paying x for y tonnes in z years ?
05:39<@Terkhen>there is a sticky thread about economy in the development subforum
05:39<@Terkhen>I have always ignored it, money does not bother me :P
05:39<Elukka>i saw that but isn't that kinda dead
05:39<@Terkhen>yes, but it might have some ideas and pointers
05:39<Elukka>true
05:40<@Alberth>hmm, a contract system looks a lot like yacd
05:40<@Terkhen>yes :)
05:42<@planetmaker>rb has somewhere a new payment scheme.
05:42<@planetmaker>that provides also a new challenge
05:44<Elukka>i do like what yacd does
05:44<@Terkhen>yes :)
05:44<@Terkhen>you can also abuse the cargo payment callback a bit
05:44<Elukka>staying with cargodist until it gets ironed out a bit though
05:44<@Terkhen>and I'm waiting for a new version of yacd before I play again :P
05:45<@planetmaker>:-D
05:45<Elukka>the most painful part is how you have to keep making vehicles manually skip orders cause every time you add a new vehicle to a route some of them will stop loading
05:48<@Terkhen>I always use go non-stop orders, specially with yacd
05:50<Elukka>so do i
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05:54<@planetmaker>Usually I do. Except possibly for local train networks
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06:15<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/kerbal.png
06:15<Elukka>spees
06:17<@Alberth>doesn't look like the nasa satellite :)
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06:53<MNIM>it ain't :P
06:54<MNIM>http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/
06:54<MNIM>it's awfully beta, though
06:56<Elukka>awfully fun anyway
06:56<Elukka>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp31QPE1-Zo
06:56<Elukka>i'm currently trying to loft this to orbit and back
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06:58<MNIM>heh, nice
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07:30<andythenorth>too quiet
07:30<Markk>Yep.
07:31<@planetmaker>yup. Have a nice day :-) I'm off for the rest. Too nice weather outside :-)
07:31<Markk>Anyone speaking dutch?
07:31<@Terkhen>planetmaker: enjoy :)
07:32<@Alberth>Markk: at an english speaking channel? unlikely
07:32<@Alberth>but just try to express what you want to know
07:32<@Alberth>if it is unclear, we will ask again
07:32<@Alberth>for clarification
07:33<Markk>Alberth: There is alot of german speaking people here. :)
07:34<Markk>But ye, my question is if you can say: "Hoe gaat het?"?
07:34<Markk>(In the meaning "How are you?".
07:34<Markk>Or "what's up?"
07:34<@Alberth>busy, as always :)
07:34<MNIM>actually, there's quite some dutch people in the ottd community, so it's quite likely there are
07:35<Markk>Thought so. :)
07:36<Markk>I shared a flat together with a dutch guy before, and I came to the conclusion that Dutch is more alike Swedish than German and Swedish.
07:36<@Alberth>MNIM: and the next question is then "kan ik je wat dingen vragen in een prive chat?" (can I ask you a few things in a private chat?)
07:37<MNIM>0-o
07:37<@Alberth>which is kind of counter-productive as more people means better answers
07:37<Markk>Atleast when you've learned some basic things in Dutch.
07:37<__ln__>and "pardon, bent u'n romulaan?"
07:37<MNIM>...
07:38<MNIM>no, I'm not romulan, Im vulcan, mkayyy
07:38<@Alberth>__ln__: wrong universe :p
07:38<MNIM>hehehe
07:38<MNIM>but yeah, privmsg is kindof dumb
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09:10<Silene>hello
09:11<@Alberth>hi
09:11<Silene>i just tried out openttd but might need some general help
09:12<@Alberth>you've come to the right channel :)
09:12<Silene>great :)
09:12<Silene>i managed to start a game and play a little
09:12<Silene>but there are several things wich bug me
09:13<Silene>first of all everything is going very fast
09:14<Silene>while i'm building stuff i get popup windows all the time
09:14<Elukka>popup windows?
09:14<Silene>newspaper etc
09:14<MNIM>ignore 'em, they're not that important
09:15<Silene>idling busses
09:15<Silene>etc
09:15<MNIM>did you give 'em orders?
09:15<Elukka>you can turn off newspaper messages for any events you like
09:15<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Message_settings <-- news settings
09:16<Silene>is it possible to run the game slower?
09:16<@Alberth>as for speed, do you have the fast-forward switched on? http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_interface#The_Menu_bar
09:17<Silene>no it's too fast on normal speed :-D
09:17<@Alberth>what is too fast exactly?
09:17<@Alberth>trains?
09:17<Silene>time running
09:17<@Terkhen>you can enable build on pause
09:18<@Alberth>time is not of interest, you have 100 years, which is about 24h real-time playing
09:18<Silene>i can?
09:18<Elukka>huh. you can?
09:18<Elukka>shows how much i know
09:18<@Alberth>yes, yes
09:18<@Terkhen>hmm... at least in nightlies, let me check if it is in 1.1.x
09:18<MNIM>lol, you didn't know that, elukka?
09:18<Elukka>i didn't!
09:18<MNIM>but yeah, I do build in pause too
09:18<Silene>time is important if i want subventions ^^
09:18<@Terkhen>well, the conversion from cheat to setting is relatively recent
09:19<MNIM>generally I spend more time paused than running, but game years still advance at a pace thanks to FFWD
09:19<@Terkhen>Silene: Options menu > Advanced Settings > Construction > When paused allow: all actions
09:21<Silene>found it :)
09:21<Silene>when i'm in the game, how do i get to the main menu?
09:23<MNIM>exit current game (you will want to save first)
09:23<MNIM>but if you want options, you don't want to do that
09:23<Silene>via console?
09:23<MNIM>...console? no!
09:24<Silene>so how?
09:24<MNIM>click on the gear icon, hold click and move down to advanced settings
09:25<Silene>gear icon? i think i don't have that one
09:26<MNIM>right next to fast-forward and pause
09:26<Silene>first icon is pause
09:26<Silene>ah ok
09:27<Silene>but that doesn't lead me to main menu
09:27<Silene>i can do settings there, ok
09:27<@Terkhen>disk IIRC
09:28<@Terkhen>Silene: http://wiki.openttd.org/Game_interface#The_Menu_bar
---Logclosed Sat Sep 24 09:34:04 2011
---Logopened Sat Sep 24 09:34:11 2011
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09:34<Silene>the menu bar looks pretty much the same
09:34-!-z-MaTRiX [~matrix@index.linuxsecured.net] has joined #openttd
09:34<Silene>except for the gear/wrench ^^
09:34<z-MaTRiX>hi
09:35<Elukka>so my friend recompiled the version i was looking for
09:35<z-MaTRiX>:)
09:35<z-MaTRiX>we have a winner
09:35<z-MaTRiX>Sep 11 01:01:33 matrix sshd[17340]: Accepted password for root from 188.24.162.55 port 1588 ssh
09:35<Elukka>i like how the folder is named "BUNDLE OF JOY - OPENTTD THAT WEIRDLY SPECIFIC VERSION YOU SO WANTED WITH CARGODIST PATCH"
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09:36<Silene>is it possible to make the mouseover text appear faster?
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09:37<@Terkhen>finally, the first person that asks about that :P
09:37<z-MaTRiX>į believe it is the advanced menu "help appears after x seconds"
09:37<@Terkhen>Silene: advanced settings -> interface -> show tooltips
09:38<@Terkhen>Elukka: patchpacks are not including cargodist anymore?
09:38<Silene>really?
09:38<Elukka>i haven't found any cargodist binary new enough to work with recent FIRS
09:39<@Terkhen>patch packers must be on vacation too :P
09:39<Elukka>the auto compile thing is on vacation also :P
09:39<@Terkhen>Silene: many just use "right click to show tooltip"
09:39<Elukka>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cargodist/
09:39<Elukka>june
09:40<Silene>i should've installed in english
09:40<Elukka>chill's patchpack looks awful nice
09:40<Elukka>probably going to play that if he ever gets it updated
09:40<@Terkhen>Silene: OpenTTD should include all languages
09:40<Elukka>i hear he's busy with that pesky real life thing
09:40<@Terkhen>go to options and select the one you want
09:41<@Alberth>Elukka: yep, new house that needs some fixing before the winter
09:41<@Terkhen>sounds important :P
09:42<@Alberth>Elukka: but I am sure he doesn't mind if you help him with an updated patch pack ;)
09:42<Elukka>i think i'm more useful drawing sprites :P
09:42<@Terkhen>updating a patchpack is a huge PITA
09:43<@Alberth>z-MaTRiX: sshd could use a bit more tightening :p
09:44<Elukka>yay this works
09:44<z-MaTRiX>not sure about it
09:44<Elukka>FIRS 0.7 + cargodist <3
09:44<@Terkhen>happy testing :P
09:45<Silene>next thing i wondered about is why my busses where having breakdowns so often
09:45<Elukka>wellll it should work
09:45<z-MaTRiX>though interesting its in the secure log
09:45<Elukka>unless cargodist itself was recently broken of course
09:46<z-MaTRiX>session got closed after
09:46<@Terkhen>Silene: there is a difficulty setting to modify how much they break, but by default they break as much as they did in the original game
09:46<@Terkhen>which is a lot :P
09:46-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-5d8214eb.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
09:46<@Alberth>z-MaTRiX: root login from outside is not that good, normally, you log in as normal user through ssh, and then become root
09:46<Silene>i didn't remember that ...
09:47<@Alberth>z-MaTRiX: a cracker then has to break two doors instead of one
09:47<z-MaTRiX>how does SELinux feel about it?
09:47<Silene>default is the "normal setting"?
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09:47<@Alberth>no idea, I have sshd disabled entirely :)
09:47<z-MaTRiX>hehe
09:48<z-MaTRiX>but its kindof funny to see random user logins and password guesses
09:49<@Alberth>like spamming, but more subtle :)
09:49<andythenorth>he
09:49<z-MaTRiX>a slap after 6 tries btw
09:49*andythenorth has the answer
09:50<andythenorth>guess the question?
09:50<z-MaTRiX>hi andythenorth whatsup?
09:50<@Alberth>what does it take for FIRS 1.0 ?
09:50<andythenorth>hmm
09:50<andythenorth>that question is related, hierarchically to my question
09:51<@Alberth>rofl
09:52<andythenorth>orly?
09:52<andythenorth>it's not that funny :P
09:52*andythenorth is glad there aren't 255 cargos
09:52*andythenorth has just had 5 new ideas
09:53<andythenorth>in addition to rubber + auto parts, which is not new
09:53<andythenorth>copper -> metal; copper -> electrical components
09:53<andythenorth>electrical components -> factory
09:53<@Terkhen>sounds like something for economies
09:53<andythenorth>sounds like something to mostly avoid
09:54<andythenorth>chemicals -> paint factory -> building materials, manufacturing supplies
09:54<andythenorth>not all ideas need to be brought to life
09:54<Silene>what ki should i install. there are so many different
09:54<@Terkhen>Silene: ki? what do you mean?
09:54<@peter1138>ai
09:54<Silene>ai
09:55*Terkhen does not play with AI usually
09:56<andythenorth>however
09:56<andythenorth>metal + chemicals -> plating works -> mnsp + goods
09:57<andythenorth>metal -> sheet metal works -> building materials, (auto parts - not in default economy)
09:57<andythenorth>two new industries :o
09:57<andythenorth>now I have to learn nml :o
10:02<@Terkhen>indeed :P
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10:10<appe>i think in need some help.
10:10<appe>i have yet to discover new industries in openttd
10:10<appe>where do i start? i cant seem to find any grf in the online content list?
10:10<appe>(that i can use, that is)
10:12<@Alberth>there are two sets, ECS and FIRS
10:12*andythenorth discovers a list of metal industries
10:12<andythenorth>how about a Screw Mill ?
10:12<@Alberth>most industries are built from metal :p
10:12<andythenorth>Chain Works?
10:12<andythenorth>Boiler Shop?
10:13<@Alberth>sounds explosive :)
10:13<@Terkhen>appe: if you use a industry NewGRF set, you will also need vehicle NewGRF sets that are able to carry the new cargos
10:14<andythenorth>http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/help/help.asp?code=BTThes/c132062.htm
10:17<@Alberth>doesn't work for me
10:18<z-MaTRiX>btw.: why does openttd hang in case clicking on multiplayer servers list when network is stalled?
10:18<appe>Terkhen: ah, i see.
10:19<appe>i was just downloading the town vektor from ECS vectors v1.1.2
10:20<andythenorth>hmm
10:20*andythenorth can't be bothered to learn how to add industries to FIRS
10:20<andythenorth>:P
10:22<@Terkhen>for ECS you should check its wiki
10:22<@Terkhen>I have not used it, but I know that you need at least some specific vectors, and in a specific order
10:24<@Terkhen>most vehicle sets should support ECS
10:25<andythenorth>"nmlc: "sprites/nml/industries/plating_works.pnml", line 10: Block with name 'metal_foundryspriteset_ground' has already been defined"
10:25<andythenorth>??
10:28<appe>ah, i just tried out the town vector
10:28<appe>it seems like i for instance need trucks with tourist support
10:31<Elukka>andy: will you be redrawing the default industries like the steel mill eventually?
10:32<andythenorth>dunno
10:32<Elukka>they're not quite up on the same prettiness level as the FIRS industries
10:32<andythenorth>most are better than FIRS
10:32<andythenorth>the original graphics are better than most of mine
10:33<Elukka>lies
10:33*llugo disagrees
10:33<Elukka>they're also somewhat different in style
10:33<andythenorth>oh :(
10:33<andythenorth>I have been trying to improve my style to match the original
10:33<andythenorth>I thought I'd got close
10:34<Elukka>i think FIRS is very compatible with TTRS and swedish houses and DB set and stuff like that
10:34<Elukka>i wouldn't
10:34<Elukka>i like your style better
10:34<@Terkhen>andythenorth: you are using THIS_ID(spriteset_ground) elsewhere already
10:34<@Terkhen>rename them to THIS_ID(spriteset_ground_1) and so on
10:34<andythenorth>how is my style different to original? (so I can improve)
10:34<Elukka>but i don't wanna, i don't want it to change :P
10:35<Elukka>i think yours is more realistic and detailed
10:35*Terkhen agrees with Elukka, although that might have to do with me playing with OpenGFX instead of ttdoriginal
10:36<appe>oboy
10:36<appe>this was fantastic
10:36<Elukka>if i'm gonna make a screenshot to show how openttd looks nice i'll take it with FIRS and TTRS or swedish houses and opengfx+ terrain :P
10:36<@Terkhen>:)
10:37<andythenorth>it's a bit depressing tbh
10:37<andythenorth>I thought I'd figured out the original style
10:38<Elukka><Miguel> he's wrong
10:38<Elukka>see, random people think yours looks better than default too
10:39<Elukka>opengfx trees are also more in home with the style of FIRS and TTRS than they are with default, i think
10:39<andythenorth>hmm
10:39<andythenorth>not much I can say to this
10:39<andythenorth>my goal is to replicate the original style almost 100%
10:39<andythenorth>looks like I failed :(
10:40<Elukka>no, you improved on it
10:40<andythenorth>some industries have been redrawn twice already for this goal
10:40<Elukka>like many artists did
10:40<andythenorth>most didn't improve on it
10:40<andythenorth>most damaged it :P
10:41<Elukka>TTRS, swedish houses, DBset, 2cc, opengfx trees, to name a few that pop to mind
10:41<Elukka>improved upon it in very similar style
10:42<@Terkhen>the style is similar, but the sprites are better :P
10:43<Elukka>i think moving it back to the default style would be a mistake
10:43<andythenorth>I'm not sure even how I'd do it
10:43<andythenorth>I've done everything I can think of
10:44<andythenorth>the style is pretty much an exact pixel-by-pixel clone of original
10:44<Elukka>you've already surpassed it in quality, and most other good grfs do the same
10:44<@Alberth>I think you are more careful with shades; the original seems so flat at times
10:44<Elukka>keep improving however you can but don't make it weaker just to emulate the original game
10:44<andythenorth>hmm
10:45*andythenorth is mostly baffled
10:45<@Alberth>Elukka: it is not 'weaker', it's 'different'
10:45<Elukka>well, true
10:45<Elukka>a matter of taste
10:47<appe>hm
10:47<appe>i cant seem to find where i get the proper trains for the right ecs grf
10:48<appe>oh, hold on
10:50<appe>yes, i cant find it :(
10:50<Elukka>i don't mean to disparage the efforts of opengfx artists; their job was to create something similar to the original graphics
10:51<@Terkhen>appe: most train sets shuld support it; 2cc, ukrs, nars, opengfx+ trains...
10:51<appe>ok. just adding the esc basic vector gives me the industry, but doesnt change the train carts.
10:51<Elukka>dbsetxl has an extra grf for ECS support too
10:53<appe>ah, there we are
10:53<appe>thank you :)
11:02<@Terkhen>:)
11:12<appe>yet
11:12<appe>im using the 2cc
11:12<appe>what train works with the multiple unit wagon?
11:12<Elukka>multiple units
11:12<Elukka>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_unit
11:15<appe>there doesnt seem to be any train available in the same set that can use the wagon?
11:16<appe>ah
11:16<appe>oh!
11:17<appe>crap.
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11:19<appe>nope, i cant get it to work.
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11:32<appe>http://gyazo.com/1ef073caec490ba5c19511a92fff0959 :DDD
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11:35<@Terkhen>appe: http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECS_Vectors
11:39<Elukka>okay. still puzzled by 2cc balance
11:40<Elukka>multiple units are fast, powerful and really really cheap to run
11:40<Elukka>why ever buy a passenger locomotive that costs 10 times more
11:43<@Alberth>for its looks?
11:43<Elukka>seems a tad impractical
11:45<Elukka>i do a bunch of things just for looks, but several times more running costs for no increase in performance...
11:46<Elukka>hm. even the multiple unit wagons are much cheaper to run
11:46<MNIM>elukka: did you factor in carrying capacity?
11:46<Elukka>seems to be similar?
11:48<Elukka>actually the multiple units carry more
11:50<Elukka>locomotive hauled train with worse performance carries ~250 passengers at a running cost of ~100k/yr
11:50<Elukka>equal length MU carries about 290 and costs less than 6k/yr to run
11:51<@Terkhen>yes, it's a bit crazy
11:51<Elukka>it kind of breaks things for me :(
11:51<Elukka>any other set out there with decent support for FIRS?
11:51<Elukka>kinda boring when everything looks like coal :P
11:52<@Terkhen>OpenGFX+ Trains :P
11:52<@Alberth>I was going to suggest that too :)
11:53<@Terkhen>I don't think that any other major train sets besides 2cc and opengfx+ trains have good sprite support for FIRS
11:53<@Terkhen>and 2cc support is already outdated by months
11:54<Elukka>hm.
11:54<appe>hm..
11:54<@Alberth>I have FIRS 0.5.1 if you want :p
11:55<__ln__>at what point does passport control take place on EuroStar?
11:56<@Alberth>halfway, and you have to walk back :p
11:57<__ln__>great
11:57<@Alberth>quite likely at both sides
11:57<Elukka>it'd be nice if the missing cargo sprite graphic used iron instead of coal
11:57<Elukka>less convenient for development though
11:57<Elukka>but for most cargoes it'd look less aggressively wrong
11:58<@Alberth>they use black sheets for covering the cargoes
11:58<Elukka>ha :P
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11:59<@Terkhen>Elukka: in nml it is quite simple to use a different default sprite for missing cargos
11:59<@Terkhen>I still use coal in opengfx+ road vehicles, though :P
11:59<@Terkhen>but since I had no feedback since latest release I'm assuming that it is done :)
11:59<Elukka>i wouldn't have a clue how to do that
11:59<Elukka>i don't even know what nml is! :P
12:00<@Terkhen>nml == simpler thing to do newgrfs
12:00<@Terkhen>it is what CETS will use IIRC
12:01<Elukka>reminds me i should do some drawing
12:01<@Terkhen>now you can suggest to use a better default knowing that it should be simple :P
12:01<Elukka>i will!
12:01<Elukka>i think most cargoes are brown
12:01<Elukka>certainly more are brown than black
12:01<@Terkhen>yes
12:02<@Terkhen>with brown, you can at least say that the wagon is dark
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12:02<Elukka>okay, another question.. which train sets besides those mentioned have functional, if not graphical support, for current FIRS? (0.7)
12:03<andythenorth>NARS 2
12:03<andythenorth>UKRS 2
12:03<andythenorth>OpenGFX + trains
12:11<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: how important do you think it is to shorten the 4 axle compartment coaches by 1 lu? i'd chalk it up to conflicting sources and be done with it (being built over a long stretch of time by 2 railway companies and all), but if they absolutely have to be shorter i'll do it some time later
12:11<Elukka>if they're okay i'll get the post coach done first
12:11<Elukka>otherwise i'm gonna work on some other wagons or engines for a change
12:15<andythenorth>is it annoying to have two industries name 'Metal..[something]'
12:15<andythenorth>mostly from a mini-map point of view?
12:16<@Terkhen>IMO not, it is easier to find them :)
12:17<andythenorth>ok
12:18<Elukka>whatever you do, by god draw them in your style
12:19<Elukka>i honestly think you're among the top ttd artists
12:19<andythenorth>hmm
12:19<andythenorth>my style is 100% copied from Simon Foster
12:19<andythenorth>it's slavish copying
12:19<andythenorth>there is nothing original
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12:20<andythenorth>it's probably borderline a GPL violation
12:20<__ln__>did Simon Foster license his work under GPL?
12:20<andythenorth>nope
12:20<andythenorth>absolutely not
12:24<Elukka>style can't be copyrighted
12:28<__ln__>Elukka: depends
12:29<Elukka>works are copyrighted, but you can't say someone can't emulate your style
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12:31<__ln__>again it depends
12:31<Elukka>in which case could style fall under copyright?
12:32<__ln__>when it's practically the same as the original
12:33<Elukka>the work itself or the just the style?
12:33<__ln__>the work
12:33<Elukka>well that's copying the entire work, not just the styel
12:33<Elukka>style
12:34<__ln__>i'd say the distinction between those two is not as clear as you imply
12:34<andythenorth>the reality is that, analysed as a bitmap, some blocks of pixels will be identical to TTD which is copyright
12:35<Elukka>if i paint an apple and you copy the exact same apple i guess you might be breaking copyright
12:35<Elukka>(though i'm not even sure you would)
12:35<Elukka>if i paint an apple and you paint an orange in the exact same style, even if some brush strokes are identical, you're most certainly not broking copyright
12:35<Elukka>breaking
12:36<Elukka>andy, analyzed at the chemical level many paintings have identical parts :P
12:43<@Alberth>not really imho, even batches paint from the same factory can be distinguished from each other
12:44<__ln__>Elukka: do you contribute to the finnish wikipedia?
12:44<Elukka>were ttd not palette-limited, and were there no color limits on computers at all, there would be very slight differences inttd sprites as well
12:44<Elukka>ln, no, why?
12:45<Elukka>all i've done on wiki is fix some easy mistakes a couple times on the english wiki, but i haven't even registered an account
12:45<__ln__>Elukka: your approach and attitude to copyright just resembled theirs.
12:46<Elukka>in which way?
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12:47<andythenorth>Terkhen: do you know where the industry ID defines are for FIRS?
12:47<andythenorth>they're not in 'defines.pnml'
12:48<__ln__>Elukka: denial of any possibility of copyright infringiment unless it's your own work that's being infringed
12:48<Elukka>whut.
12:48<Elukka>it's just true that style alone is not copyrighted
12:49<Elukka>do you think there could be a copyright violation if i drew an apple and you drew an orange by emulating my style?
12:50<__ln__>Elukka: no, but if you drew an apple asn a ttd sprite, and i drew another apple in your style, then it would be more ambiguous.
12:51<@Terkhen>andythenorth: let me check
12:51<Elukka>long as you draw it rather than literally copypasting mine...
12:52<__ln__>Elukka: yes, that's exactly the attitude i'm talking about.
12:52*Pinkbeast detects a giant straw man being used on Elukka
12:53<@Terkhen>andythenorth: item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, smithy_forge, 6) <--- the 6
12:53<andythenorth>oh
12:53<Elukka>it might be almost identical to mine due to technical limitations (limited resolution and palette), but unless i could somehow show that it was actually copypasted i wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court
12:53<andythenorth>ok
12:53<andythenorth>so
12:54<@Terkhen>I prefer to note them as 0x06 to make them more visible, but we probably didn't check it after the conversion
12:54<andythenorth>to find the list of IDs, I have to read every file :O
12:54<andythenorth>that is awful
12:54<andythenorth>I need to fix that
12:54<@Terkhen>a industry_defines.pnml file would make sense
12:54<Elukka>if art was so limited by copyright that something that looks similar would fall afoul of it, it'd be pretty terrible
12:54<__ln__>Elukka: whether it was technically copy-pasted doesn't matter at all
12:54<@Terkhen>#define SMITHY_FORGE_ID 0x06
12:54<@Terkhen>item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, smithy_forge, SMITHY_FORGE_ID)
12:54<andythenorth>exactly
12:54<andythenorth>this is worthwhile refactoring, even though FIRS industries are mostly 'done'
12:54<Elukka>sure it does
12:54<Elukka>if it's copypasted you're stealing mine, if you draw it it's yours
12:55<@Terkhen>andythenorth: I agree :)
12:55<andythenorth>Terkhen: I wonder if it can just be copied from the nfo version :D :P
12:55<andythenorth>I think it probably can
12:55<Elukka>if i take a photograph and you use it as reference for a drawing, you still own the copyright to your drawing
12:55<@Terkhen>it probably can be adapted
12:55<@Terkhen>change the extension, add the gpl header if it is missing and so on
12:55<andythenorth>I'll do it
12:56<@Terkhen>ok :)
12:56<__ln__>Elukka: and if i paint a painting and you take a photograpth, ....
12:56<Elukka>of the painting?
12:56<__ln__>yes
12:56<Elukka>hmm. i believe that would count as a reproduction of the painting
12:57<Elukka>i couldn't claim the painting being photographed is mine
12:58<__ln__>correct
12:58<Sacro>depends how much effort went into the photo
12:58<Sacro>if there was composition and lighting and such...
12:59<Elukka>yeah, that'd probably count as an original work
12:59<Elukka>or a derivative maybe?
13:00<Elukka>but ln, it doesn't change that if i draw a ttd apple and you draw a similar apple, no copyright is being broken
13:01<__ln__>Elukka: if i intensively look at the apple you drew and draw my own within the same very limited constraints (resolution, palette), then i wouldn't be to confident a court wouldn't decide i am breaking the copyright.
13:02<Elukka>you drawing the same subject as me in the same medium is still an original work
13:02<Elukka>how would either of us show that you did or didn't look at my apple?
13:03<Elukka>in theory, i suppose, you would indeed be infringing copyright in that case
13:03<Elukka>in practice it's irrelevant
13:03<__ln__>if i don't deny it
13:04<Elukka>well then they might judge against you
13:04<__ln__>yes, my point exactly
13:05<andythenorth>Terkhen: it's not as easy as I thought :(
13:05<andythenorth>nml doesn't use hex?
13:06<@Terkhen>you can use 0x06
13:06<@Terkhen>but by default it uses dec
13:06<Elukka>i guess we are in agreement then
13:07<Elukka>simply drawing a similar ttd apple without staring intensely at mine clearly wouldn't be copyright infringement though
13:07<Elukka>Pinkbeast: have you had a chance to try ts2012 yet?
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13:07*SpComb patents TTD apples
13:08*Terkhen patents them in a different country under a slightly different name, and sues
13:08<Elukka>hum. the most recent version of NARS2 is from 2009, but it still works with recent FIRS?
13:08<Pinkbeast>Elukka> Yes... new graphics engine doesn't work at all, old one runs still more like a drain. It may have to work until I upgrade rei
13:09<Pinkbeast>*wait
13:09<Elukka>that's unfortunate
13:09<Elukka>mine works way worse than it should too
13:09<Elukka>it looks nice but it's not very playable with the new engine
13:09<Elukka>feels like trainz :P
13:09<Pinkbeast>I gather shadows are the killer with the new engine, if you turn them off it's better.
13:10<Pinkbeast>If the old one was "the same but with cab roll" I'd be happy, but the frame rate's gone from tolerable to intolerable in places
13:10<Pinkbeast>I was going to upgrade rei anyway, so it's not the end of the world.
13:10<Elukka>it runs badly on absolute minimum setings
13:10<Elukka>settings
13:11<Elukka>there's people with absolute top of the line ridiculously expensive computers who have it run terribly too
13:11<Elukka>i hope they patch it soon
13:11<Pinkbeast>Well, likewise. We shall see.
13:11<Pinkbeast>Otherwise I guess it's back to OpenBVE :-)
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13:16<andythenorth>Elukka: NARS 2 works fine with FIRS
13:17<andythenorth>I'm playing a game at the moment with it
13:17<Elukka>interesting
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13:32*andythenorth is bored of copy paste
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22959 /trunk/src/lang/finnish.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
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13:52<Elukka>http://www.makeupalley.com/product/showreview.asp/ItemId=35699/Arctic_Eyeshadow_Duo/NARS/Eye_Shadow
13:52<Elukka>well that wasn't what i was looking for
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14:02*andythenorth has tweaked FIRS metal chain
14:02<@Terkhen>tweaked how?
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14:05<andythenorth>added a new industry, renamed Foundry to Workshop to be a little more accurate
14:05<andythenorth>also added acceptance of chemicals
14:05<andythenorth>chemicals are very widely used in FIRS :)
14:06<andythenorth>the new industry is Metal Fab. Plant
14:06<@Terkhen>hmm... let's see
14:06<andythenorth>produces building materials, and in future, auto parts
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14:08*andythenorth ponders intro date for metal fab plant
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14:11<andythenorth>he
14:11<andythenorth>the minimap is quite insane for FIRS :D
14:11<andythenorth>49 industry types
14:12<@Terkhen>andythenorth: metal fabrication plant and metal workshop use the same minimap colour
14:12<andythenorth>yup
14:12<@Terkhen>also, I'm not sure if having them accept exactly the same cargos is a good idea
14:12<andythenorth>I wondered that
14:12<andythenorth>but it's kind of fine
14:12<@Alberth>limit is 64 industries iirc
14:12<andythenorth>Terkhen: if industries had 3 outputs, there would only be 1 type here :P
14:12<@Terkhen>they feel too similar (even when ignoring that they are currently using the same sprites :P)
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14:13<andythenorth>they are pretty similar
14:13<andythenorth>I'm open to suggestions
14:13<andythenorth>this is basically a side effect of splitting goods into more categories
14:13<andythenorth>although I didn't add it for that reason :)
14:13<@Terkhen>IMO either one of them should change chemicals for something else
14:13<andythenorth>have a look, see what you think
14:14<andythenorth>they could just use only metal
14:14<@Terkhen>yes, I'm checking it now :)
14:14<@Terkhen>no, using two input cargos is fine
14:14<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/sets/FIRS/schema/industries?economy=point_8_release
14:17<andythenorth>Terkhen: patch the game for 3 output cargos, I'll revert the new industry out of FIRS :D
14:18<@Terkhen>I'm fine with them being two industries
14:18<@Terkhen>but they shouldn't be so similar
14:18<andythenorth>find any other options?
14:18<andythenorth>could cut chemicals from one
14:18<@Terkhen>nope
14:18<@Terkhen>ask in the forums, I'm not that good at thinking chains :P
14:19<andythenorth>I rely on Eddi|zuHause2 - and he already made his suggestion (factory)
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14:27<@Terkhen>what does that do?
14:28<andythenorth>metal + mnsp -> goods
14:29<andythenorth>other ideas
14:29<andythenorth>introduce 'tin' cargo
14:29<andythenorth>tin -> metal works
14:29<andythenorth>introduce 'paint' cargo
14:29<andythenorth>chemicals -> paint -> metal works
14:29<andythenorth>paint -> builders yard also
14:30<@Terkhen>confusing :)
14:30<@Terkhen>sounds like stuff for economies
14:30<@Terkhen>I'm thinking that maybe the new metal building could replace the old one in a "building" economy, or in less industry heavy economies
14:31<andythenorth>the fab plant is definitely intended to produce auto parts in a future economy
14:31<andythenorth>right now I added it because metal is under-represented in the main economy
14:32<andythenorth>chemicals could stay or be removed
14:32<andythenorth>from that industry
14:32<@Terkhen>time for dinner, bbl
14:32<andythenorth>enjoy
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14:41<andythenorth>he
14:41<andythenorth>rivers are so stupid :)
14:41<andythenorth>I can just build whatever I want over them
14:41<andythenorth>I guess bulldoze = culvert
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15:09<@Terkhen>andythenorth: use a basecost newgrf
15:09<andythenorth>it's more that I wonder where the river goes when I bulldoze 1 tile of it :)
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15:34*andythenorth is still puzzled
15:35<andythenorth>compare FIRS textile mill + original ttd paper mill
15:35<andythenorth>identical style imo
15:35<@Alberth>let me find some pictures first
15:36<andythenorth>if anything, original version is more detailed
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15:51<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/mills.png light/dark differences are much bigger with textile (which I like btw)
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15:52<@Alberth>also, you have thicker 'circles' around the chimney, with bigger colour differences
15:53<@Alberth>your buildings have sharper edges at least compared to original industries
15:53<@Alberth>houses may be different
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16:01<@Alberth>updated the image with original TTDX
16:02<@Alberth>original is closer to your style, but still different in the way I described imho
16:05<@Alberth>look at your lighter rooftop walls, eg
16:06<@Alberth>andythenorth: ^
16:06<andythenorth>Alberth: that's an old FIRS
16:06<andythenorth>:)
16:06<andythenorth>http://tt-foundry.com/misc/ttd-v-firs.png
16:07<@Alberth>lies
16:07<andythenorth>:P
16:07<@Alberth>it's 0.6.5-beta-3
16:07<andythenorth>aaaaancient
16:08<andythenorth>I told that 0.7.x has about 250 improvements or so on 0.6.x
16:09<andythenorth>:)
16:09<@Alberth>:)
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16:10<@Alberth>new mill is very close to original style imho
16:10<andythenorth>it's almost a pixel-by-pixel clone :P
16:10<andythenorth>I did draw by hand, but with a very magnified original nearby :P
16:11<andythenorth>Elukka: ^^
16:13*Alberth must get used to the new style
16:13<@Alberth>they blend in with the original very well
16:14*andythenorth hopes so ;)
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16:40*andythenorth wonders
16:41<andythenorth>can ships be taught to prefer drive side when a waterway is >1 tile
16:42<Elukka>hmm... one thing that makes them better than the originals in my opinion is the individual tiles and their arrangement
16:43<Elukka>hey, andy, might i suggest reducing the running costs of crawlers in HEQS a tad?
16:43<andythenorth>maybe
16:43<Elukka>constantly running at capacity on a 20 tile route and can't make a profit
16:43<andythenorth>they're kind of pointless eye candy anyway
16:43<Elukka>it'd be nice if they were more useful
16:44<Elukka>i'd just give them low running costs
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16:50<andythenorth>Elukka: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3093
16:50<Elukka>:)
16:51*andythenorth -> bed
16:51<andythenorth>good night
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17:03<@Terkhen>good night
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17:59<__ln__>is there some preferred place to find scientific articles about computer science, written in german? (other than the obvious scholar.google)
18:00<@peter1138>/dev/null
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18:12<__ln__>peter1138: it's not very readable.
18:13<@peter1138>neither is german
18:14<@planetmaker>http://www.gi.de/service/digitale-bibliotheken/io-port.html <-- maybe there, __ln__
18:14<@planetmaker>but I don't know
18:14<Progman>heise.de?
18:16<@planetmaker>certainly. But I'd not call it "scientific articles" mostly
18:16<@planetmaker>though they're a high-quality publisher
18:17<__ln__>thanks, pm and Pm
18:18<@planetmaker>:-D
18:19<__ln__>i'm searching for articles about software localization, so there's a particularly good reason to expect such could have been written in non-english.
18:19<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
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18:26<frosch123>cs papers are always written in english
18:27<frosch123>same as for math
18:27<frosch123>you might only be able to find diploma theses or so in german
18:28<valhalla1w>frosch123: not in france
18:28<valhalla1w>but in germany, you're probably right
18:29<@planetmaker>in real science also french certainly write English
18:29<valhalla1w>not their PhD theses
18:29-!-valhalla1w is now known as valhallasw
18:29<@planetmaker>yeah, well
18:29<valhallasw>of course, published articles are still in English
18:29<valhallasw>although I believe there are still a few French journals around
18:30<frosch123>here phd are written in german as well
18:30<@planetmaker>we were talking about articles. not thesises
18:30*planetmaker writes in English
18:31<frosch123>though there might be quite some percentage of cs phds written in english
18:31<frosch123>but that is hard to tell for me, as there was quite a high percentage of foreign guys writing cs phds at my university
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18:34<valhallasw>the Comptes rendus de l'Académie des sciences are still pretty much in french, though
18:36<valhallasw>(although they publish on natural sciences and not on math/cs)
18:37<__ln__>did Dijkstra write (any significant) things in dutch?
18:38<__ln__>at least P and V are not english.
18:38<valhallasw>I don't think there is much scientific literature in dutch, really
18:39<valhallasw>or, well, for the natural sciences and math etc
18:39<valhallasw>for the social sciences I can imagine there is some
18:40<valhallasw>but for physics and math, most would be in german/french (early 1900s) / english
18:40<__ln__>/chinese (late 00s)
18:41<valhallasw>I meant publications from NL, specifically
18:41<__ln__>yes, me too
18:41<__ln__>predicting the future
18:41<valhallasw>the 00s have passed already ;-)
18:42<__ln__>first century of the 2000s
18:42<valhallasw>http://scholar.google.fr/scholar?hl=en&q=edsger+dijkstra+language%3Adutch&btnG=Search&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_ylo=&as_vis=0
18:42<valhallasw>but these are mainly lectures, I think
18:42<valhallasw>http://oai.cwi.nl/oai/asset/7390/7390A.pdf
18:43<@planetmaker>good night
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18:44<__ln__>"Kortste bomen uit een graph" like .. "Shortest trees from a graph"??
18:44<valhallasw>yes
18:44<valhallasw>shortest path algorithm
18:46<__ln__>well that's pretty significant
18:46<valhallasw>"Ein algol-60-uebersetzer fuer die x1 : (zeitschrift fuer moderne rechentechnik und automation m.t.w., _8(1961), p 54-56, p 115-119) (1961)Open access"
18:46<valhallasw>__ln__: it's just the text from a lecture
18:46<valhallasw>it's not the article
18:46<__ln__>sad
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19:24<Wolf01>'night
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19:53<__ln__>why so silent?
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21:10<appe>http://gyazo.com/fd5eea3e5fbf1d7c8e2d7cc2bb5a2298.png
21:10<appe>im starting to get the hang of this
21:10<appe>or at least make it work :p
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 25 00:00:21 2011