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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-09-30

---Logopened Fri Sep 30 00:00:38 2011
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02:09<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:01<appe>morning
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03:17<@Terkhen>hi appe
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03:38<dihedral>good morning
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03:47<@Terkhen>hi dihedral
03:47<planetmaker>moin
03:48<@Terkhen>hello to you too, planetmaker
03:58<dihedral>hey you 2 :-)
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04:37<__ln__>huomenta
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05:38<TrueBrain>OpenTTD services are all down; our Xen host is down for unknown reasons. We are on it ;)
05:40<MNIM>you better! D:<
05:41<planetmaker>our provider better.
05:42-!-Mazur [~mazur@5ED2BEAE.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd
05:42<planetmaker>a power switch in France is hard to reach from here ;-)
05:43<TrueBrain>go-go magic arms!
05:44<planetmaker>hm... I forgot to level up on my telekinesis spell last time I gained a level ;-)
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05:55<dihedral>gnah - planetmaker ... that's just not good enough :-P
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06:15<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the change history of google docs is useless...
06:20-!-DorpsGek [~dorpsgek@178-33-38-239.ovh.net] has joined #openttd
06:20-!-mode/#openttd [+o DorpsGek] by ChanServ
06:38<TrueBrain> right; all OpenTTD services should be back to normal; let me know if it is not :)
06:39<erik1984>TrueBrain: I can confirm BaNaNas is working again
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06:40<TrueBrain>thank you, but I have little interest what is working ;) More interested in if things are not ;)
06:40<MNIM>isn't that the same thing?
06:40<MNIM>0-o
06:41<TrueBrain>true == false in your world? :)
06:42<MNIM>no, if (working=true) then you know failure==false since working==(-false)
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>you clearly have never been in a lecture on decidability
06:43<TrueBrain>okay, feel free to name all OpenTTD services and mark them as true
06:43<TrueBrain>I rather assume all are true, and just mark them if they are not
06:43<MNIM>that's another question :P
06:43<TrueBrain>no, that is not a question
06:44<TrueBrain>you say they are the same thing, nto me
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>or one where you have 9-state logic
06:46<planetmaker>it's all fuzzy anyway ;-)
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06:46<planetmaker>ok... DorpsGek is NOT working ;-)
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06:47<TrueBrain>you sure?
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>now DorpsGek is not not working
06:47<MNIM>nah, that's just him being crazy like a proper village nutter
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07:06<erik1984>TrueBrain: Ok I get the hint, I will NOT tell you that the website is up again :P
07:07<TrueBrain>don't push me today ;) I am grumpy because my morning was not spend watching Big Bang Theory
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>was a weird episode anyway...
07:12<planetmaker>oh... season 5 is there :-)
07:13*planetmaker goes watching :-P
07:13<planetmaker>still lunch break anyway ;-)
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07:16<Eddi|zuHause>hm... need a better system to represent articulation...
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08:16<TrueBrain>ugh; had to ban an IP from our network because he was running wget over all possible server IDs. Let it be clear that in no way that is acceptable behavoir ...
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08:20<z-MaTRiX>hey
08:20<z-MaTRiX>back from nomansland
08:20<z-MaTRiX>whatsup ?
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08:24<dihedral>hmmm - my wget loop is failing ...
08:24<dihedral>just kidding TrueBrain :-D
08:25<TrueBrain>dihedral: well, someone is saying that right now :)
08:25<dihedral>:-P
08:25<z-MaTRiX>scripting anybody?
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08:30<fjb>Moin
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09:08<TrueBrain>OpenTTD's MySQL is down for a while; there is corruption in an archive table due to the power outage earlier tihis morning, and MySQL refuses to correct the issue
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: can you take care of that? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2750#note-14
09:15<appe>what is the effect?
09:16<planetmaker>in what way, Eddi|zuHause?
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>either give him access, or explain to him why he shouldn't have it?
09:16<planetmaker>just as (additional) document(ation)
09:17<planetmaker>oh, you mean on google?
09:17<appe>ad
09:19<planetmaker>I assume giving him edit rights is ok with you, yes, Eddi|zuHause?
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>yeah
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09:32<planetmaker>@topic add -1 Content service currently offline
09:32-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only | -1 Content service currently offline (planetmaker)
09:32<planetmaker>@op
09:32-!-mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by DorpsGek
09:32-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only | Content service currently offline (planetmaker)
09:33-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only | Content service currently offline
09:33<TrueBrain>and wiki
09:33<TrueBrain>and bugs
09:33<TrueBrain>and and and :P
09:33<@planetmaker>hm, all?
09:33<TrueBrain>MySQL is down
09:33<z-MaTRiX>does this mean the multiplayer does not work either?
09:33<TrueBrain>anything using MySQL does not reply
09:34<@Terkhen>yes, servers seems down too
09:34-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.3 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only | Web service partially offline
09:34<TrueBrain>they are
09:34<z-MaTRiX>aham so actually everybody is playing on openttd.org
09:34<TrueBrain>also uses MySQL :)
09:35<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX: if you know your server you can connect no problem
09:35<@planetmaker>s/no/without/
09:35<z-MaTRiX>hehe no i dont
09:35<@planetmaker>hehe. That's what coop has for the !ip command in IRC :-)
09:35<z-MaTRiX>hmm
09:35<z-MaTRiX>thats a good feature
09:36<@planetmaker>you just need the server name (and port). That's all
09:36<@planetmaker>like stable.openttdcoop.org:3979
09:36<TrueBrain>MySQL seriously is by far the worst DB engine; as long as it works, it works. But if anything is outside the parameter of working, it fails HARD
09:36<TrueBrain>:(
09:36<z-MaTRiX>but if only i can connect to a server thats boring
09:37<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX: you can connect to every server. Your OpenTTD usually remembers the last server you connected to
09:37<z-MaTRiX>but only the last one
09:37<z-MaTRiX>not the server list
09:38<z-MaTRiX>it could have been cached
09:38<@planetmaker>well... that's usually pointless
09:38<z-MaTRiX>in a simple textfile for example, 1 server in a line
09:39<@planetmaker>that's what is done in the cfg
09:39<z-MaTRiX>so i can add favorite servers by click to it in the list?
09:41<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX: the server list is volatile. So... you'd save a lot of dead servers
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09:52<TrueBrain>okay; it seems I managed to recover the MySQL table
09:52<TrueBrain>so everything should be back up and running
09:53<Belugas>hello
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10:23<TrueBrain>I wonder if anyone here is from TUDelft which wrote a wget batch script to run every day at 0800 CEST ... /me looks suspisios
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10:34<dihedral>why on earth mus a client have nagios version2 ... :-(
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10:45<z-MaTRiX>TUDelft ?
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10:53<TrueBrain>z-MaTRiX: if you ask, you don't know. It is that easy :)
10:58<z-MaTRiX>yes
10:58<z-MaTRiX>though i could help with bash
11:05<TrueBrain>z-MaTRiX: it is not about writing, it is about being written and used, in an abusive way :)
11:05<TrueBrain>mind the "wrote" in my sentence original sentence :) I wasnt asking for help ;)
11:06<z-MaTRiX>kk
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13:46<Wolf01>evenblind
13:47<__ln__>wabe
13:48<@Alberth>evenink
13:52<Elukka>zarp
14:01<__ln__>anyone from north korea?
14:02<Elukka>me
14:02<Elukka>it's me
14:02<Elukka>i'm kim jong il
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14:04<Prof_Frink>Are you ronery?
14:06<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22967 /trunk/src/lang/latvian.txt:
14:06<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:06<CIA-2>OpenTTD: latvian - 56 changes by Parastais
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15:07<andythenorth>hello
15:10<@Alberth>o/
15:10*andythenorth is a feedback whore
15:10<andythenorth>anyone tried latest HEQS?
15:11*Alberth supresses the urge to check for anyones presence
15:12<@Alberth>I haven't played a game in months
15:13<andythenorth>it's worth playing one once a year
15:13<andythenorth>to remind yourself
15:15<Elukka>i was going to try the new HEQS but forgot to download it for my current game
15:15*andythenorth resists urge to troll the "why don't you port to Unreal engine" thread :P
15:15<andythenorth>Elukka: add it to your running game :)
15:15<@Alberth>start a new one :)
15:15<Rubidium>andythenorth: but... we're going to have one in 6 months; he basically promised that, didn't he?
15:16<andythenorth>did he?
15:16<Elukka>wait, unreal engine what.
15:16<andythenorth>I thought he promised you'd do it
15:16<andythenorth>does it support locking the camera to a fixed angle and focal length? :P
15:17<Elukka>very likely
15:17<@planetmaker>nah, OpenTTD as ego-shooter ;-)
15:17<andythenorth>and does it also allow for adjusting perspective to isometric
15:17<@Alberth>that sounds like a worthwhile feature to add :)
15:17<Elukka>it very likely can do that too
15:17<andythenorth>in which case, let's port it
15:17<Elukka>i don't see any reason an openttd-like game wouldn't work on unreal, but... why?
15:17<andythenorth>because we've been told to?
15:17<andythenorth>:D :P
15:17<Eddi|zuHause>because of graphics card support!
15:18<Rubidium>andythenorth: if you know moving OpenTTD to Unreal's engine takes only 6 months, then you must have intimate knowledge of both OpenTTD and the Unreal engine. As such you are the one that has to do it
15:18<@peter1138>unreal engine? what?
15:18<Elukka>to be honest i do suspect it'd render the graphics ten times faster :p
15:18<andythenorth>it was tempting to troll the thread
15:18*andythenorth has good and bad months for trolling / flaming
15:18<@planetmaker>it would be worthwhile from the point that then graphics would run on the graphics card. But... it'd not be sprites then ;-)
15:19<Rubidium>I doubt that... OpenTTD doesn't render, so it can't be ten times faster
15:19<@Alberth>instead you trolled here :)
15:19<andythenorth>some months I am all like, 'be nice you mean developers'. Other months....
15:19<@peter1138>what thread?
15:19<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56843
15:19<Elukka>i think unreal could do sprites perfectly well
15:19<Elukka>kinda funny that someone seriously suggested it though
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>there have been many crazy suggestions over time...
15:20<@Alberth>everybody is happy to suggest things they don't have to do
15:20<andythenorth>it's interesting that the world is so full of smart people who miss the point
15:20<Elukka>still it's not a new idea to run a sprite based game on a 3D engine
15:20<andythenorth>if the world's smart people missed the point less, it would be a better world
15:20<Elukka>that's mostly what's done these days i think
15:21<@Alberth>andythenorth: but it would be so boring :p
15:21<Elukka> <@Alberth> everybody is happy to suggest things they don't have to do
15:21<Elukka>if they shouldn't why have a suggestion forum?
15:21<andythenorth>Alberth: it's not like there's a shortage of interesting problems to solve
15:21<andythenorth>world peace
15:21<andythenorth>peak oil
15:22<andythenorth>where all the missing (odd) socks are
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>the smart/lazy people's default response is rejection because a) they're lazy, and b) the other person could be stupid/active, which means they'd be wasting their time
15:22<@planetmaker>it would be interesting to port one of the scale2/scale3 algorithms to OpenTTD
15:22<@planetmaker>and thus finally start solving the "everything is so small" complaints
15:22<Elukka>i think a much better answer to suggestions like that is "we don't have the inclination/time to do it or it's not worthwhile"
15:23<Elukka>rather than saying "do it yourself lol" to everything
15:23<andythenorth>planetmaker: they're surprisingly effective
15:23<@planetmaker>I know :-)
15:23<andythenorth>zeph found one that seemed to be optimised for pixel art iirc
15:23<@planetmaker>yes, that's what I mean
15:23<@planetmaker>I was not joking :-)
15:23<@Alberth>Elukka: that implies we understand the suggestion, which we may not
15:24<andythenorth>supermop_: do you need help sorting your nfo out?
15:24<andythenorth>station nfo is not the easiest imho
15:24<@planetmaker>http://scale2x.sourceforge.net/index.html
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: we did have that
15:24<@planetmaker>that one?
15:24<andythenorth>scale 2x looks ok
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but then someone decided to revamp the blitter
15:25<V453000>thats quite cool
15:25<andythenorth>I am unconvinced by scale 4x
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: there was a patch implementing several different scaling methods
15:25<supermop_>yeah,
15:25<@Alberth>andythenorth: but we have so many small parts that together form a sprite
15:25<supermop_>it would help
15:25<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it was not the scale2x thing, just nearest neighbour for some operating system that most of the devs not even use
15:25<supermop_>or
15:25<supermop_>station support in nml
15:25<supermop_>that would be sweet
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: there was a better patch than that
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: that even worked on linux
15:25<Rubidium>can't remember that
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>it might have been in miniin
15:26<andythenorth>what is the status of station support in nml?
15:26<supermop_>status is: none
15:26<@planetmaker>must be many years and versions ago ;-)
15:26<supermop_>as far as i know
15:26<@planetmaker>andythenorth: 0%
15:26<andythenorth>but is it on someone's todo list?
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15:26<@planetmaker>it's on NML's todo list
15:26<andythenorth>yexo was coding chips to remind himself how they work...
15:27<Rubidium>Elukka: if someone claims that X can be solved in Y months, then I would assume the person to have enough knowledge about the subject to be able to make that estimate. As such that person is on the top of the list of people who can solve the issue
15:27<Rubidium>(and you should use the best person for the job)
15:27<andythenorth>stations in nfo are definitely squirrely
15:27<andythenorth>I barely understand the CHIPS code
15:28<supermop_>i was waiting for it, but eventually figured i had no idea when it would show up, and was tired of making fun, detailed 24hr eyecandy games without my own grf in them
15:29<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: can't find any trace of such a feature in MiniIN
15:29<supermop_>also
15:29<Elukka>he was saying 'i think this is a good idea and the openttd team is good enough to get it done in a reasonable time'
15:29<Elukka>not claiming he can do it in 6 months
15:29<supermop_>was never able to get a coder
15:30<Rubidium>Elukka: he claims it can be done in 6 months: "it wouldn't take but 6 months to really get something out that works"
15:31<Elukka>...preceded by "The openttd development team is very competant.."
15:31<supermop_>i also want to do a bridge set as proof of concept to ask for more bridge features, so i feel like i need to be proactive
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i think it was this one: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=28384
15:34<Elukka>it really seems silly to answer 'do it yourself' in the suggestion forum
15:34<Elukka>if they were inclined to do so they'd be posting in the dev forum
15:35<@planetmaker>probably true
15:35<Elukka>if it's not okay to suggest but not do it then there shouldn't be a suggestion forum
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: it's actually the graphics development forum
15:36<Elukka>ah, my mistake
15:36<Rubidium>Elukka: if you make claims about the "easiness" of something, regardless of where you claim it, you should be able to back up that claim
15:36<Elukka>it's still an attitude that seems to pervade most suggestion threads
15:36<Rubidium>if the question was: "why don't you use one of the X, Y, Z engines?", then the answer would have been completely different
15:37<Rubidium>it's the (it's easy to do) attitude of the maker of the "suggestion" that triggers the "do it yourself" attitude (at least for me)
15:37<Elukka>or you could take it as a compliment... he said it would be doable because the openttd devs are very capable
15:38<@Alberth>he has no idea of our capabilities imho, at least /me is completely clueless about 3D engines
15:39<Rubidium>a sniper might be very capable, but I doubt he will win in hand-to-hand combat
15:40<Rubidium>likewise someone working on 2D stuff and algorithms might have no clue about 3D (engines)
15:40<andythenorth>sniper vs. tank
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>a sniper is useless if he doesn't have a partner who watches his back
15:41<Elukka>then surely a reply saying that would be more constructive :)
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15:41<Eddi|zuHause>it's so easy to sneak up on a sniper from behind
15:42<Rubidium>Elukka: you can deduce that from my statement
15:43<@Alberth>Elukka: he obviously did not look for previous discussions, or he would not have posted in this way
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15:45<@planetmaker>Elukka: it's certainly right, there are possibly more cozy ways to tell him. But where's the line between ignorance and arrogance?
15:48<@Terkhen>where is that thread? I don't see it
15:49<@Alberth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56843
15:49<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56843
15:54<@Terkhen>thanks :)
16:22*andythenorth ponders
16:23<andythenorth>sharp eyed observers might notice 2 extra steam trams here: http://hg.openttdcoop.org/heqs/raw-file/af68089d9585/sprites/graphics/industrial_tram_locomotives.png
16:24*planetmaker is not sharp-eyed ;)
16:25<andythenorth>I didn't ship them yet
16:25<andythenorth>I was holding them back
16:25<andythenorth>gameplay is more interesting when there is 'new'
16:26<andythenorth>wondering if I should ship them soon
16:27<@planetmaker>:-D
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16:29<Rubidium>andythenorth: procrastinator soon? ;)
16:29<Elukka>these seem like they'd double as narrow gauge
16:30<andythenorth>next few weeks / month soon
16:30<andythenorth>Elukka: they're industrial narrow gauge
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16:51<andythenorth>good night
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17:03<Eddi|zuHause>first successes: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1973/Hawthorn___Co.__1._Jun_1922.png
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>a few things are not quite right yet, it seems
17:07<Elukka>ooh!
17:07<Elukka>sprites! in game!
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>so... wagons i do tomorrow...
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>open issues: alignment, capacity, construction period, liveries, loading stages
17:14<Elukka>there might be a goods wagon by tomorrow
17:14<Elukka>how do loading stages fit into a template?
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>make a second image
17:15<Elukka>oh
17:17<supermop_>cool
17:17<supermop_>what are you making eddi?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>lots of magic
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>you haven't seen the slightest glimpse of it yet from that picture :)
17:19<supermop_>I've heard you talking about articulated things, so I am guessing its bendy things on rails
17:19<Elukka>turns out it's not!
17:20<Elukka>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1946/pr_4_abteilwagen_2-3kl_10lu.png
17:20<Elukka>long, rigid carriages :p
17:21<supermop_>Ha, surely you're joking mr. zu hause
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>have you ever seen me joking?
17:21<supermop_>although i've heard you talking about tile length vehicles as well...
17:22<supermop_>which i whole heartedly support
17:22<Elukka>i think with our scale the longest coaches are going to be just under a tile?
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>yeah
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 13/8
17:22<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 1.625
17:22<Elukka>still nearly double the length of usual ones
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>60% longer than normal
17:23<Elukka>shorter coaches are the length of normal ttd long coaches
17:23<@planetmaker>looks quite nice
17:24<@planetmaker>Elukka: do you use photoshop or gimp for drawing?
17:24<Elukka>photoshop
17:24<Elukka>don't think it'd matter much though
17:24<Elukka>long as it has layers...
17:24<@planetmaker>it might matter for cargo wagons
17:24<Elukka>how so?
17:24<@planetmaker>we can use photoshop files directly
17:24<@planetmaker>you then don't need to export stuff ;-)
17:25<@planetmaker>they just need names without whitespace
17:25<@planetmaker>(the layers)
17:25<Elukka>we can use .psd?
17:25<@planetmaker>yes
17:25<supermop_>nml can read psd?
17:25<Elukka>for what exactly?
17:26<@planetmaker>gimp can read it. And the makefile can extract the layers and write the pngs from that
17:26<Elukka>photoshop is dumb and can't do layers in indexed color images so i'm not sure of the utility
17:26<Elukka>oooh it can do that
17:26<@planetmaker>oh, it can't?
17:26<Elukka>nope
17:26<@planetmaker>but... if the whole image is indexed the layers surely are, too?
17:27<@planetmaker>how would they not?
17:27<Elukka>it forces you to flatten layers when converting to indexed and doesn't let you make any new ones
17:27<@planetmaker>sounds crap...
17:27<Elukka>yeah
17:28<@planetmaker>but then it doesn't sound useful to use psd directly
17:28<@planetmaker>but I thought I mention it :-)
17:29<supermop_>do you guys think I should wait for nml stations before proceeding any further?
17:29<Elukka>photoshop really ought to be able to do it..
17:29<@planetmaker>supermop_: it's up to you... whether you want to dive into the nfo there or have some patience
17:30<@planetmaker>you surely could start with drawing sprites
17:30<supermop_>all the sprites are done
17:30<@planetmaker>or maybe with coding them as NewObjects for a starter or so. Oh...
17:30<supermop_>have been for about a year
17:31<@planetmaker>that's tough then :-)
17:31<@planetmaker>you could write the NML-part of stations :-P
17:31<supermop_>ha
17:31<supermop_>what does that mean?
17:31<@planetmaker>what I meant with "nml part of stations"? Patch NML such that it can write stations
17:32<@planetmaker>but it's not the easiest of things, I think
17:32<Eddi|zuHause>someone needs to recode mtss... that is a pain to explain people how to use it...
17:32<@planetmaker>indeed
17:32<supermop_>you mean my grf?
17:32<supermop_>thats the idea
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>no, not mlss, mtss
17:33<supermop_>ok
17:33<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't actually tried your grf yet
17:33<supermop_>i am sure that if i could patch nml, I would be able to write better nfo
17:34<supermop_>well i tried to add more stuff and then there were some bugs due to that, and the nfo was tens of thousands of lines long already so i gave up and started over
17:34<supermop_>so
17:34<supermop_>dont bother with it for the time being
17:44<@Terkhen>good night
17:44<supermop_>I am actually removing sprites from the project because some of the special tiles did not add much and are just cluttering the menu
17:45<supermop_>also I thing the roundhouse and yards should be a separate grf
17:45<supermop_>f
17:45<supermop_>oops
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>why separate grfs? you can easily make separate categories within the same grf
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18:03<supermop_>that stuff might make more sense as new objects
18:04<supermop_>also it is a bit different in function to the core idea of hiding complex depot areas within a fake locomotive shop
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18:05<Eddi|zuHause>you can do newobjects in nml :)
18:06<supermop_>yep
18:06<supermop_>so splitting everything off that does not have to have a train driving through it could make my life a lot easier
18:15<+michi_cc>Hmm, CETS grf is already over 22k (pseudo) sprites. Maybe NML has to get smarter in the future so we stay inside the 64k limit :p
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>that's one of the things i worry about
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>we have not yet cut up the >8lu wagons to avoid glitches, and we don't have loading stages, etc. so sprite numbers might still increase significantly
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>how troublesome is raising this 64k limit? :)
18:18<+michi_cc>All Action 0 which are conditional on the same params could merge into one for example (well, up to the 64kb per sprite limit of course)
18:19<+michi_cc>That would be GRFv2 then (not to be confused with NFOv2).
18:19<+michi_cc>I.e. a new container format.
18:19<supermop_>could nml split a grf into modules that are each under the limit?
18:19<Eddi|zuHause>i doubt that
18:20<+michi_cc>Even if it could, that would mean the player has to load each GRF separately.
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>we could manually split the grf into one per company. but we wanted to avoid that
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>or one per epoch
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>since we autogenerate 99% of the code, that should be easily done
18:24<+michi_cc>I didn't look at all pseudo sprites, but I wouldn't be surprised that due to the autogeneration a lot of the Action 2 stuff is very similar or identical. NML would need to learn to eliminate duplicates then (or maybe get support for GRF procedure calls).
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>i need to look up on procedure calls anyway
18:28<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Commit #3098 please :) The GRF is big enough already
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't looked at that yet...
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>makefile business is planetmaker's field
18:29<Eddi|zuHause>or you commit it...
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18:31<@planetmaker>I plan to add it in the upcoming makefile update
18:32<@planetmaker>or let's say: I added it already as default to the makefile framework
18:32<@planetmaker>But I want to finish the refactoring
18:33<@planetmaker>if it's really urgent.. then commit it now
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18:48<+michi_cc>Hmm, NML creates quite a lot of Act9/ActD (like 15 actions) for each "climates_available: (...) ? ALL_CLIMATES : NO_CLIMATE;" line, I wonder if that couldn't be done smarter.
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19:07<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: A lot sprites are wasted by NML in conditional expressions: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3100
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19:48<Eddi|zuHause>ok, that'd possibly free a few thousand sprites
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19:50<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/606/ results in "optimal" code with current NML.
19:50<+michi_cc>It still duplicates identical conditions though
19:53<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: OpenTTD seems to ignore any total sprite counts BTW, so it's only Patch and whatever other tools that might break. This means we can ignore the limit in practice I guess, even if performance will suffer the larger it gets.
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20:04<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/trackplan-1.png
20:04<Elukka>ah, no more 360mm curves on the main bend...
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20:09<Eddi|zuHause>i'm amazed by your complete lack of track geometry :)
20:10<Elukka>why did i ever decide to make this out of sectional track?
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20:11<Elukka>how i'm actually gonna solve that detachable bridge to the coal mine table... well that's a mystery
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>curvy bridges are nasty
20:12<Elukka>yeah that'll be.... a challenge
20:13<Elukka>but i dunno how i'm gonna attach it to the mountain side in a non-terrible-looking way
20:13<Elukka>on the main table's side
20:13<+michi_cc>I don't think the bottom curve on the main table can fit two trains at the same time...
20:13<Elukka>i was just gonna test that
20:13<Elukka>it probably doesn't, true
20:14<Eddi|zuHause>you don't seem to have a lot of space to place walls there
20:14<Elukka>walls?
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>a bridge usually lies on a wall on the mountain end
20:15<Elukka>ah
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>a "Widerlager"
20:15<Elukka>there's no reason the bridge can't start earlier
20:15<Elukka>it's the technical side of things i'm worried about
20:17<Eddi|zuHause>not sure what you mean then
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20:19<Elukka>how to actually build it so it's easy to attach and detach yet doesn't look completely terrible
20:21<+michi_cc>Check if models going into the curve on the track below the bridge don't swing out su much the would conflict with walls or pillars of the sloping track.
20:24<Elukka>i'll just have to put any wall or pillars far enough
20:24<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/trackplan-2.png
20:24<Elukka>curve should be more workable now...
20:25<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/trackplan.png
20:25<Elukka>i originally had it like this
20:25<Elukka>longer tracks for the station area but longer wagons looked terrible on the curve since the turnouts were 360 mm
20:25<Elukka>radius
20:27<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Note to my paste: NML r1673 makes it redundant (thanks Yexo :)
20:28<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: did you check the difference in sprite count?
20:30<+michi_cc>Not the exact number, but it's not very much, as most vehicles have simpler availability checks so the savings aren't that big.
20:31<Eddi|zuHause>probably more things can be saved if nml kept results available until register pressure forces them out
20:32<Eddi|zuHause>and gather all action0 in one place
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20:42<Wolf01>'night
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20:44-!-JVassie [~James@2.27.86.69] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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21:21<supermop>hello
21:22-!-glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:70e8:2d87:acf3:9802] has quit [Quit: bye]
21:23<@planetmaker>good night or morning
21:24<supermop>how is it going in Germany?
21:27<@planetmaker>tired :-) Thus... see you another night :-)
21:27<supermop>ok!
21:27<supermop>later
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23:39<z-MaTRiX>mov ax;$a000;mov es,ax
23:39<z-MaTRiX><;
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 01 00:00:54 2011