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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-02

---Logopened Sun Oct 02 00:00:56 2011
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03:48<@Terkhen>good morning
03:49<LordAro>morning Terkhen
03:51<xmirakulix>good morning
03:52<xmirakulix>LordAro: did you have time to check the two 32bpp ez patches?
03:53<LordAro>i haven't checked them, i'm waiting for permission to upload them to coop, then the build system will test them
03:53<xmirakulix>ah, I see
03:54<LordAro>in other words, i'm waiting for Ammler to wake up :)
03:54<xmirakulix>:)
03:55<xmirakulix>so I shall test, if they apply against the most current trunk in the meantime
03:55<LordAro>thanks
03:55<LordAro>i'd do it myself but.... minecraft is calling to me :)
03:56<xmirakulix>I played it once, but the call didn't reach out for me :)
03:59<xmirakulix>update: The patches apply and compile nicely with current r22970
03:59<LordAro>oh good. thanks for that
04:30-!-Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
04:30-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
04:41<PeanutHorst>... am I the only person who thinks that a combination between OpenTTD and Minecraft would be /awesome/
04:42<LordAro>since the 2 games are almost entirely different, probably, yes :)
04:43<PeanutHorst>Minecart mechanics are woefully lacking, but I do enjoy building bridges and rails by hand block-by-block
04:43<PeanutHorst>openTTD has very fun mechanics but doesn't let you micromanage to the same extent
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04:45<xmirakulix>Can't wait to see a full featured high-capacity roro station built in mine craft :-)
04:46<xmirakulix>Do they have PBS there? :-P
04:47<LordAro>it has redstone, and a station like that is almost certainly possible
04:48<LordAro>notch plays openttd as well
04:49<@Terkhen>yup
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04:49<xmirakulix>I see that my knowledge about minecraft is clearly outdated :)
04:54<@Alberth>PeanutHorst: OpenTTD is slightly more a tycoon game, where you don't have the time to micro-manage everything.
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>yet openttd has still an awful lot of micromanagement
04:55*Rubidium wonders why he heard complaints about there being too much micromanagement
04:55<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I said 'slightly' :p
04:56<@Alberth>but it depends a bit on how you play. Adding newgrfs and tweaking the network is not by definition necessary
04:57-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1A5B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
04:58<Eddi|zuHause>things like adding capacity/trains to an existing route to handle increased capacity. or spreading out/synchronizing timetables in a tram network
04:58<PeanutHorst>Alberth: I wouldn't know, I haven't played any Tycoon games, unless Theme Hospital counts
04:58<PeanutHorst>OpenTTD was my first after someone else introduced me to it
04:58<PeanutHorst>and I stayed because I enjoyed it
04:58<@Alberth>PeanutHorst: TH is much more micro management
04:58<PeanutHorst>I don't really have a comparison to it
04:59<PeanutHorst>Theme Hospital isn't micromanagement, it's a descent into madness/absurdity
04:59<PeanutHorst>with TV Personalities and Inflated Heads respectively :p
04:59<Eddi|zuHause>Theme Hospital... is that anything like Biing!?
04:59<@Alberth>PeanutHorst: that's just a theme, just like toyland.
05:00<PeanutHorst>keine idea :p
05:00<PeanutHorst>Alberth: difference is you can't switch to a more realistic on
05:00<PeanutHorst>e
05:00<PeanutHorst>no more realistic setting was provided, and there's no modding community around TH like there was around TT
05:00<@Alberth>I played a bit Corsix-TH, and you constantly have to keep an eye on your staff, and move them manually
05:01<@Alberth>TT is much older, with people with a different background
05:01<@Alberth>ie in TT days, everybody did assembly language and basic
05:02<@Alberth>nowadays, very few people understand how a CPU works with its memory, or know what to do with a a command prompt
05:03<PeanutHorst>heh
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>didn't take "verybody", only two or three guys
05:03<PeanutHorst>I have the opposite problem
05:03<PeanutHorst>I know the low level of a computer very well, I certainly know my way on the command line
05:03<Eddi|zuHause>*every*
05:03<PeanutHorst>I do not know how to code, though
05:03<PeanutHorst>know BASIC, a bit, but not asm or C
05:03<@Alberth>PeanutHorst: lots of room to learn ! :)
05:03<PeanutHorst>and BASIC isn't the language it used to be - it was fine for 8-bit micros but you can't really take full advantage of a 32-bit or 64-bit ZOMGtastic cpu using only basic
05:04<PeanutHorst>for a start the PEEKing and POKEing would become real confusing given you just went from 48K to at least 512M
05:05<@Alberth>PeanutHorst: in C you write *p = 3, but it is basically the same idea
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05:05<PeanutHorst>heh
05:05-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc32e.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
05:05<PeanutHorst>only somewhat modern language i've used is Gambas 2
05:05<@Alberth>moin frosch
05:05<PeanutHorst>with a hint of bash and python
05:05<@Alberth>forget bash :)
05:06<PeanutHorst>it was a bit easier to do Gambas, as it's basically BASIC with some object oriented stuff and without the castration of Visual Basic
05:06<@Alberth>python is good, a basic on steroids :)
05:06<PeanutHorst>hah, I wish - I kind of need bash to do my job (i'm a systems administrator, and I don't like zsh or tcsh)
05:07<frosch123>hai albert :)
05:07<PeanutHorst>I am however planning to figure out if I can learn the necessary skills to make some NewGRFs
05:08<PeanutHorst>thus far my attempts at Blender have been horrible (over the years) but i'm told it had a UI revision recently so I might try it again if I can make it compile
05:09<@Alberth>most graphics artists here use a pixel editor program afaik
05:09<@Alberth>eg gimp
05:09<PeanutHorst>i'm told that doesn't cut it for 32bpp
05:09<PeanutHorst>I do kind of enjoy the ez patches
05:09<@Alberth>oh, 32bpp, yeah you need blender or some other renderer then
05:10<PeanutHorst>and i'd have them /everywhere/ if it was feasible to run the patches against a release instead of HEAD
05:10<PeanutHorst>(as in, so I could distribute a build that would work with my server and everyone could enjoy 32bpp + ez)
05:11<Rubidium>PeanutHorst: any patch that change the logic of the game will desync in multiplayer if not played against the right version
05:11<@Alberth>that patch is somewhat troublesome
05:12<PeanutHorst>I'mm familiar
05:12<PeanutHorst>hence why i said if it were feasible to patch against release
05:12<PeanutHorst>because that's a stationary target, as opposed to HEAD
05:12<Rubidium>stable changes every few weeks as well
05:13<@Alberth>what's the advantage? as Rubidium said, you can only do MP with people with the exact same pacthed version, so any revision will do
05:13<@Alberth>such as HEAD as of now :p
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>you can perfectly well do pixel art in 32bpp :)
05:17<@Alberth>excetp call it ez-patched-r22970 instead of HEAD, and it is just as stable as a release, where you can also control when to go to the next 'release'
05:17<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: No, my screen is only 24bpp :(
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: the other 8bit only matter if you have a transparent screen :p
05:18<@Alberth>:)
05:19<PeanutHorst>actually
05:19<PeanutHorst>some video cards used to use that 8 bits
05:20<PeanutHorst>as an overlay
05:20<PeanutHorst>just sayin'
05:20<PeanutHorst>(mainly high-end unix workstations)
05:23<@peter1138>most displays aren't even 24 bit :(
05:24<@Alberth>Who needs 24 bits? I have used systems with 8bit video for a long time :)
05:24*Eddi|zuHause remembers displays that had 4 greyscale values and interpolated the other 12 by interpolating by flickering
05:25*PeanutHorst has a SGI 21" Trinitron sitting next to him displaying 24 bits
05:25<@peter1138>TN LCDs are usually 6 bits per channel, with dithering (possibly temporal)
05:25<@peter1138>PeanutHorst, welcome to the 90s
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>21" CRT. those were monsters! :p
05:26<Eddi|zuHause>now i have 27" TFT and they feel tiny
05:28<@peter1138>and yes, 32bpp graphics are very well possible by pixel pushing *grumbles*
05:28<PeanutHorst>peter1138: it's connected to a machine running FreeBSD and X11 with CAD software
05:28<PeanutHorst>it has a trackball also, connected via serial port
05:29<PeanutHorst>so yes, welcome to the 90s
05:29<@peter1138>ooh ooh, it is a 386 too? :D
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>they did have 486 and pentiums in the 90s :p
05:30<@peter1138>486s if you were rich
05:30<@peter1138>pentiums in the mid-90s
05:30<Eddi|zuHause>21" CRTs also only if you were rich
05:30<@peter1138>true
05:31<Eddi|zuHause>i had 14"!
05:31<@peter1138>i had a 13"!
05:31<@peter1138>only went up to 640x480
05:32<@peter1138>which was okay, cos the graphics card only have 256KB...
05:32<frosch123>11" with monochrome hercules graphics
05:32<@peter1138>the monitor had a switch on the back to emulate green/amber screens
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>actually i had a really good 14", it went up to 1280x960
05:32<@peter1138>which it did by just turning off the guns
05:33<@peter1138>so it was pretty unusable cos things just disappeared, heh
05:48<PeanutHorst>peter1138: i have a 486 here, a high-end one, but no the 21" is connected to a Pentium D 2.8GHz
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06:10<PeanutHorst>wow, blender finally compiled. it's ... less sluggish than i expected./
06:10<PeanutHorst>don't think i'll put it on my 486 though. ;)
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06:16*__ln__ is about to go visit <http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessen_%28F_221%29> in a moment
06:22<MNIM>oh, by the way, I forgot to ask
06:22<MNIM>how did the berlin elections go?
06:23<Eddi|zuHause>everybody won
06:24-!-JVassie [~James@2.27.87.116] has joined #openttd
06:25<Eddi|zuHause>SPD won because they stayed largest party, CDU won because they gained votes, Green won because they also gained votes and probably get part of a government with SPD, Left won because they lost less than expected, pirates won because they got above 5% for the first time, FDP won because they finally reached their project 18... err... 1.8... whatever...
06:26<frosch123>FDP - Fast drei Prozent
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vUbYCd_d8c
06:31<Eddi|zuHause>actual results: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/0,1518,786376,00.html
06:33<frosch123>weird sorting order in that graph
06:33<frosch123>it is sorted by neither the percentage this time nor last time
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>yeah... indeed
06:34<Rubidium>order by MIN(result 2006, result 2011)
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>possibly: (percentage this time, for all previous members), (new parties), (other)
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: no, that's not it either
06:35<Rubidium>well...
06:35<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: if you exclude "other" then rb is right
06:36<Rubidium>where min(2006, 2011) > 5 order by min(2006, 2011)
06:36<Rubidium>plus another to add the remaining votes
06:36<Rubidium>i.e. the others
06:37<Eddi|zuHause>"where max(2006,2011) > 5 order by min(2006,2011)" maybe
06:38-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host64-51-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd
06:38<Wolf01>hello
06:42<vpelletier>looks like I misunderstood the meaning of "parent window": I was expecting it to be the window on which some action caused a new window to be created. Looks like it's more like the window geometrically containing considered window.
06:42<vpelletier>so, is there a way to get what I expected ?
06:44<@Alberth>I don't understand "geometrically containing considered window"
06:45-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd
06:45<@Alberth>perhaps you mean that many windows have the main display window at the background as parent? (I think they do, never tested it)
06:45<vpelletier>yes
06:46<@Alberth>it is sort of a root window, so that makes sense to me. Perhaps you should check for that case, and exclude that window from being parent
06:47<vpelletier>well, at least printing "desc->parent_cls" in LocalGetWindowPlacement shows 0 (aka WC_MAIN_WINDOW) for both windows spawned by map click (ex, station details) and windows spawned fromother windows (ex, which bus have thatstation in their orders)
06:47<MNIM>Sounds interesting!
06:47<Rubidium>I thought parent is mostly null, and only set when it makes sense... i.e. when there is a real parent relation: should be closed if parent is closed (except when pinned)
06:48<vpelletier>Rubidium: I didn't check if it's set yet :)
06:48<Rubidium>parent_cls is a 'sentinel' for 'no (real) parent'
06:48<vpelletier>I started reading code inside window.cpp, and about initial window placement only :)
06:48<vpelletier>aha
06:48<Rubidium>parent_cls 0 that is
06:49<vpelletier>now that you mention it, parent is not accessed in this method, only parent_cls
06:49<@Alberth>vpelletier: you can open windows in several different ways, so parents may be less useful
06:55<vpelletier>btw, now this code looks suspicious to me: FindWindowById(desc->parent_cls, window_number)
06:56<vpelletier>window_number is supposed to be the new window id, so why are we looking it up with its parent's class ?
06:56<appe>good morning
06:57<Rubidium>because window numbers are usually indices, such a vehicle, town, industry, depot, station, ... indices
06:57<Rubidium>in that case the parent ought to have the same index, and as such the same window number
06:57<vpelletier>ok, so all windows related to a vehicle, ... has same indice ?
06:57<vpelletier>ok
06:57<Rubidium>or in cases where indices are not used, they're 0 and it's fine
06:58<vpelletier>I see
06:58<appe>i have something for you
07:00<vpelletier>I start understanding why window placement is the way it is :)
07:00<vpelletier>indeed, parent is NULL in my test cases
07:00<vpelletier>ie, new_window->parent
07:01<appe>my girlfriend works with the onboard customer service on the DB regio (arriva) trains here in sweden
07:01<appe>i had a private tour in the x61 yesterday
07:05<appe>http://www.flickr.com/photos/appemobile/6203446026/in/photostream
07:06<appe>in the db coffee room
07:06<appe>the irony.
07:06-!-erik1984 [~erik1984@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has joined #openttd
07:07<frosch123>is that your notebook?
07:08<frosch123>or from some db employee?
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07:16<mib_k55cga>!password
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07:19<Eddi|zuHause>where's glx?
07:20-!-hanf [~Klaus@host-78-146-190-226.as13285.net] has joined #openttd
07:29<@Alberth>it's too early :)
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>but he wasn't here yesterday either
07:33<@Alberth>hmm, true
07:36<TrueBrain>it is silly that it STILL happens :)
07:38<@Alberth>we should program Dorpsgek to return a fake answer :p
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>"mom's the word"
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>(not even sure what that actually means)
07:41<@Alberth>it's "openttd"
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>"this kind doesn't get served here"
07:41<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: doesn't matter, it sounds convincing :)
07:42<TrueBrain>"404 - Password invalid"
07:42<@Alberth>"I wish I knew too"
07:42<@Alberth>404 - Password is too secret to tell you
07:42<TrueBrain>or 403 rather ;)
07:43<@Alberth>:)
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>"JP Morgan Chase donates 4.6 million to NYPD."
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>"now get rid of these pesky wall street protesters" or what?
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07:55<@Alberth>lol
07:57-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd
08:12<@Terkhen>:P
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09:26<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22971 /trunk/ (10 files in 2 dirs): -Add [FS#4787]: climate aware canal/aqueduct graphics; based on work by PaulC
09:41<Rubidium>wow... 2826 sprites in openttd.grf
09:42-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:43<Rubidium>(against 6950 in the original)
09:44<Rubidium>opengfx has 3444 sprites in it's "extra" grf though
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09:54-!-k-man_ [~jason@ppp167-253-181.static.internode.on.net] has joined #openttd
09:55<k-man_>when I run openttd on my mac, I just get a black screen
09:59<Rubidium>let me guess... you're using Mac OS X Lion/10.7?
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10:01<xmirakulix>I use Lion too, works fine here
10:02<Rubidium>that's a bit the problem with Mac OS X; for half it magically works, for the other half it magically doesn't work (in case of OpenTTD)
10:02<xmirakulix>any clues to why that is? what doesn't work if it doesn't?
10:03<xmirakulix>k-man_: what hardware do you use?
10:04<Rubidium>xmirakulix: lots of things, most interesting might be the fact that the API claims something is supported, but when you actually use it, it isn't supported. However... no errors are returned so from the point of view of OpenTTD everything works, whereas in reality it just doesn't work
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10:06<xmirakulix>Rubidium: I'd be happy to help, but I'd need to be able to produce such a behavior…
10:06<Rubidium>xmirakulix: well... that's the joy of developing for OSX
10:07<xmirakulix>:)
10:07<Rubidium>there are 6 bugs waiting for a fix
10:08<theos>!password
10:08<TrueBrain>@kick theos wrong channel
10:08-!-theos was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [wrong channel]
10:08<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: happy?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: i'm the opposite of walter... how can you even ask that? :p
10:08<TrueBrain>haha :)
10:09<V453000>nice to see that our players are welcome in this channel
10:10<Rubidium>V453000: well, we used to have days where many typed that and then started whining that the bot didn't give the password or whatever
10:10<TrueBrain>V453000: they are being kicked for that for at least 4 years now :) Nothing new there. Normally only we have a bot taking care of it :)
10:12<Rubidium>now it's limited to once every moon or so
10:12<TrueBrain>twice today already
10:12<TrueBrain>not sure what is going on :P
10:13<@Alberth>it's summer
10:13<TrueBrain>:D
10:16<Rubidium>Alberth: yes, today is a "zomerse dag" as well ;)
10:20-!-Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db1a3d8.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
10:20<k-man_>xmirakulix, macbook pro, osx lion
10:21<xmirakulix>k-man_: so it's most likely an nvidia graphics card, as in my iMac it's an ati
10:22<k-man_>xmirakulix, oh I'm not sure
10:22<xmirakulix>k-man_: is it a very recent model with two graphics cards?
10:22<k-man_>NVIDIA GeForce 9400M 256 MB
10:24<xmirakulix>no external display attached, I assume?
10:24<k-man_>no
10:24<xmirakulix>is it black in windowed and in fullscreen mode?
10:25<k-man_>how do I start it in windowed mode?
10:25<k-man_>I only tested fullscreen so far
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>press alt+enter
10:26<xmirakulix>try hitting cmd+enter
10:26-!-Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd
10:27<xmirakulix>Its' cmd+enter on osx
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>whatever
10:27<k-man_>no, it just beeps at me
10:28<@Terkhen>edit openttd.cfg and set fullscreen to false
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>you can also edit the config file
10:28<xmirakulix>you could edit your opened.cfg
10:28<@Terkhen>triple :P
10:28<xmirakulix>:)
10:28<xmirakulix>set fullscreen to false
10:29<k-man_>err... where is that file?
10:29<@Terkhen>I don't know where is that on osx, check the readme
10:29<xmirakulix>In your Documents/OpenTTD
10:30<k-man_>ah! that solved it
10:30<k-man_>thanks guys
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10:31<xmirakulix>glad to help, have fun
10:31<k-man_>thanks :)
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>it's funny that OSX with a reduced set of supported hardware has more problems with hardware support :p
10:33<Chris_Booth>Eddi|zuHause: that is very ironic
10:36<k-man_>I think full screen apps have really had the spanner put in the works by apple since the release of lion, because prior to that, I think it was tricky to do full screen apps, but now apple provides an api
10:37<k-man_>and I suspect in the process broke the old method of megazoom that was used before - of course this is just my hypothetical guess. I could be way off
11:20-!-ZirconiumX [56039034@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
11:21<ZirconiumX>Hello everyone (or two)
11:21<@Terkhen>hi ZirconiumX
11:21-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #openttd
11:21<ZirconiumX>Hello Terkhen.
11:23*ZirconiumX is annoyed with GCC
11:24<ZirconiumX>I've had an error I've _never_ had before...
11:24<@Alberth>Intel also has a compiler :)
11:24<ZirconiumX>I can't use icc
11:25<ZirconiumX>I don't have an Intel Processor
11:25<ZirconiumX>(PowerPC)
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you're making errors you made before, you're definitely going towards being stupid
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>in so far, new errors are not bad per se:)
11:26*Alberth prefers old errors that I know how to solve :p
11:26<ZirconiumX>http://pastebin.com/rwegBqR6
11:27<ZirconiumX>I'd give you the source - but its a bit big...
11:27<@Alberth>nice one :)
11:27<ZirconiumX>I think the problem area is the FEN-Parser
11:27<@Alberth>tried rebuilding all from scratch?
11:28<ZirconiumX> /usr/bin/gcc-4.0 -x c++ -arch ppc -pipe -fno-asm -Wno-trigraphs -fasm-blocks -gused -O0 -pg -fpermissive -Wreturn-type -Wnon-virtual-dtor -Weffc++ -Woverloaded-virtual -Wformat -Wmissing-braces -Wparentheses -Wswitch -Wunused-function -Wunused-label -Wunused-parameter -Wunused-variable -Wunused-value -Wuninitialized -Wunknown-pragmas -pedantic -Wshadow -W
11:28*Alberth has 4.6.1
11:29*ZirconiumX can only use 4.0 cos it's the only one that's avaliable fo his ancient OS (10.4)
11:29<ZirconiumX>-Wfour-char-constants -Wsign-compare -Wnewline-eof -fmessage-length=0 -mtune=G5 -fprofile-use -fvisibility=hidden -fvisibility-inlines-hidden -mfix-and-continue -mmacosx-version-min=10.4 -I/Users/matthew/Magic\ Chess/build/Magic\ Chess.build/Speed\ Release/Magic\ Chess.build/Magic\ Chess.hmap -Wall -F/Users/matthew/Magic\ Chess/build/Speed\ Release -I/Users/m
11:29<ZirconiumX>?me apologies for not using pastebin
11:30*ZirconiumX apologises for not using a pastebin
11:30<@Alberth>http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=20815 <-- it's known
11:31<ZirconiumX>I've seen that - I think the problem is the -fprofile-use
11:31<ZirconiumX>http://pastebin.com/8xGZ1Tp2
11:32<ZirconiumX>If anyone is interested - ^ is the build script
11:32<ZirconiumX>complete with 32 errors
11:32<ZirconiumX>s/32 errors/34 warnings/
11:33<ZirconiumX>so - what to do...
11:35<ZirconiumX>http://pastebin.com/MHBF9ceY
11:35<ZirconiumX>is source
11:35<PeanutHorst>ZirconiumX: 4.0? update that shit; compile a new toolchain if you have to
11:36<PeanutHorst>compiling a newer gcc on tiger is far from impossible
11:36<PeanutHorst>i've done it myself
11:36<ZirconiumX>Can't. Dad has admin rights and has blocked downloads. Simple as.
11:36<PeanutHorst>also, high-five for having a PowerPC, mine are all still in service :)
11:37<ZirconiumX>@PeanutHorst Isn't it ironic that I have never seen a PC with a PPC chip
11:38-!-b_jonas [~x@russell2.math.bme.hu] has joined #openttd
11:38<ZirconiumX>Performace Optimization With Enhanced RISC - Performance Computing
11:42<ZirconiumX>the only problem with ppc chips is that when you push past the 3 ghz barrier - the computer gets *very* hot
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11:45<PeanutHorst>ZirconiumX: actually, that was only a technological limitation of the G5
11:45<PeanutHorst>IBM wasn't able to scale them that far
11:45<PeanutHorst>the G4s can overclock decently, but they were never pushed to that high a clock rate
11:45<ZirconiumX>Imagine if Apple hadn't moved to Intel.
11:46<ZirconiumX>Imac G6
11:46<PeanutHorst>I'd imagine if you used a newer (say 65nm) process to make the G5, you'd be able to get to 4GHz easily without massive heat dissipation problems
11:46<PeanutHorst>also have you ever seen a PPC chip, btw?
11:46<PeanutHorst>as in, the bare chip
11:46<ZirconiumX>Oh - the G5 had the infamous problem with its capacitors
11:46<PeanutHorst>only the iMac.
11:46<ZirconiumX>not personally
11:46<PeanutHorst>the Power Macintosh G5 was unaffected.
11:46<ZirconiumX>ah
11:46<PeanutHorst>ok, well, the PPC is a very small chip physically
11:47<PeanutHorst>and it doesn't have a thermal dissipation surface like, say, the tuatalin, or p4, or any of the later intel chips - it's just bare glass which is mounted to the heatsink using a solid thermal pad, been that way since the 603
11:48<PeanutHorst>so the chip carrier doesn't dissipate heat as effectively as a comparable intel offering either.
11:48*Rubidium wants back to the time when Apple didn't support Intel CPUs
11:49<PeanutHorst>you and me both
11:49<PeanutHorst>I grew up in the time where 68k was still a common-ish sight
11:49-!-ZirconiumX [56039034@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
11:49<Rubidium>*so* much less "portability" issues
11:49<PeanutHorst>there was an LC575 stowed away even when I was in high school, I managed to repair it (needed the RAM reseated, that was it)
11:50<PeanutHorst>The Apple I grew up with ... was not friggin' fruit-coloured
11:50<PeanutHorst>it was sensible
11:50<PeanutHorst>and powerful, but restrained. elegant.
11:50<PeanutHorst>and it was not basically powered by the souls of a million intel marketing drones.
11:51<z-MaTRiX>hey-ho
11:52<PeanutHorst>hi!
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11:55<b_jonas>the pentium 2 were also not dissipating much heat, though they were quite large in size
11:58<PeanutHorst>true
11:58<PeanutHorst>though the SECC helped with that
12:13<z-MaTRiX>whatz up?
12:14<z-MaTRiX>i prefer AMD they are the cool dudes
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13:04<appe>http://gyazo.com/281aec2f57d3d9bec980b930c34bf629.png
13:04<appe>yes/no?
13:07<PeanutHorst>looks impressive
13:07<PeanutHorst>can't tell if going to crash, or well-engineered
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13:09<frosch123>don't put signals behind junctions
13:10<frosch123>and restrict the number of platform a train can reach from on entry/exit
13:10<b_jonas>yep, it does look like a bit too many signals to me as well given that it's path signals
13:10<frosch123>you do not want a train to drive completely accross the junction to block all lines
13:12<appe>ah, ok
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13:14<b_jonas>hmm, these oil rigs have quite high production despite that I don't transport from them yet
13:15<b_jonas>and they've been standing their unused for decades
13:15<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1990/Hawthorn___Co.__6._Okt_1922.png is a seriously sexy pic :) Even if I still think longer wagons would be even better.
13:15<b_jonas>I'll have to start an expensive oil train network, but should it use the refinery at north or at south?
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: the later wagons will be a bit longer than that
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13:17<Eddi|zuHause>next step: capacity and refitting
13:17<Hirundo>Looks quite awesome indeed :-)
13:18<b_jonas>how can those wagons even take turns?
13:19<Hirundo>Are there (feature creep alert!) [plans for] separate sprites for slopes?
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>Hirundo: not currently, but might be possible. but i think it's not actually needed
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13:25<@peter1138>heh, nice
13:26<b_jonas>these unclearable transmitters on the mountain are a nice touch, the way they don't allow me to flatten the whole mountain range
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13:31<@peter1138>yeah, that's the point
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r22972 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt welsh.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: latvian - 6 changes by Parastais
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: welsh - 74 changes by kazzie
13:56<b_jonas>hmm, for the oil network I'll have to learn some about pbs junctions
13:57<b_jonas>I'll need a double mainline, and a tee junction off it for each oil rig
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>use transfer stations instead
14:01<b_jonas>transfer stations? hmm, I'm not sure I really like those
14:03<b_jonas>I actually have a double line passenger train with tee junctions here, but I'm not sure how good it is.
14:07<b_jonas>still, interesting idea. I'll consider transfer stations.
14:08<__ln__>why are RE trains "Preisauskunft nicht möglich" in the bahn.de search, and how does one approximate a price?
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: no idea, usually that happens only for non-DB trains
14:10<appe>there is something i dont get with the ecs grf
14:10<appe>what kind of buildings accept petrol?
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>appe: TTRS fuel stations
14:10<appe>i cant seem to find consistency in how big or central a town needs to be.
14:10<__ln__>question #2: if i have a ICE+RE ticket, can i use an earlier RE than printed on the ticket, if i'm early?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: only if you order a ticket without exact train binding
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>(those are usually more expensive)
14:11<appe>Eddi|zuHause: what's that?
14:11<__ln__>i see
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>appe: either you need the TTRS grf, or the ECS Houses grf
14:12<__ln__>i bought a ticket with ~40 minute change time now, i think the default suggested 8 minutes is *a bit* tight on Berlin Hbf.
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>that might be true ;)
14:15-!-KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-9-224-33.as43234.net] has joined #openttd
14:16<appe>Eddi|zuHause: neat!
14:16-!-HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@88.130.191.104] has joined #openttd
14:17<appe>Eddi|zuHause: i am using the ecs houses grf. and i can find places in big cities where they accept petrol - but ..why, and how?
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>appe: use the ?-tool to check the houses
14:20<appe>aha!
14:21<__ln__>"NV = NAHVERKEHRSZÜGE VOR / NACH FERNVERKEHRSZÜGEN; GILT JE FAHRT MAX 1 TAG BIS FOLGETAG 10 UHR"
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14:28<+michi_cc>__ln__: Nahverkehr never has train binding, so taking an earlier RE is fine.
14:30<__ln__>thanks, i'll try that then
14:30<appe>i worked it out
14:30<appe>Eddi|zuHause: thank you
14:31<appe>Eddi|zuHause: i have never used the ?-tool before. :)
14:32<appe>by the way
14:33<appe>aint there no grf for headquarter houses?
14:33<appe>should be :(
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>there certainly are
14:41-!-Devroush [~dennis@ip-83-134-160-229.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #openttd
14:50<Eddi|zuHause>so... now we have useful wagons as well ;)
14:51<Eddi|zuHause>i mean ones that can actually load stuff :)
14:54<MNIM>it's starting to look interesting
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14:58<frosch123>[20:11] <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: only if you order a ticket without exact train binding <- afaik that only applies to ICE and IC, not RB/RE
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14:59<frosch123>ah, michi said that already :)
14:59<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: might be, never actually tried that
15:21<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Any special reason the generate script still outputs callback_flags? As far as I can see, it's all "new style" callbacks.
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: no reason, just have forgotten to remove it
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>better now? :)
15:26<+michi_cc>yes :)
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15:46<TrueBrain>all wave hello to our new compile farm: http://cf.openttd.org/ . Powered by Bamboo, it is kicking ass :D
15:48<b_jonas>nice
15:52<frosch123>ssl is no worth it anymore, right? :p
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15:54<b_jonas>argh, the oil refinery has disappeared. I'll be lazy and just found a new one just where it used to be.
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>how did people ever play this game before funding was introduced? ;)
15:57<frosch123>how many towns did you fund?
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i ever used that feature
16:00<frosch123>what funding are you talking about then?
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16:08<b_jonas>towns? none. funding towns is a new feature.
16:08<b_jonas>hmm, should I use a bridge here?
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i meant funding industries
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16:17<b_jonas>oh no...
16:18<b_jonas>oil rig produces passengers, and the train engine takes passengers. I'll have to refit the engine to some irrelevant cargo so I can full load
16:18-!-FHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd
16:20<Elukka>you could set it to full load any cargo
16:20<Elukka>...oh yeah
16:21<Elukka>except it'd fill up with passengers. hm.
16:21<SpComb>or use and engine that doesn't take passengers
16:22<b_jonas>the Z1 is the best monorail engine
16:26<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22973 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.h station_cmd.cpp): -Add: support for replacing the buoy via action123
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>:o
16:27<CIA-2>OpenTTD: rubidium * r22974 /trunk/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: draw buoy sprite without outline on the map
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's something i certainly didn't see coming :)
16:27<SpComb>NewGRF buoys?
16:32<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, now they can be snowy ;)
16:41<FHerne>I can't say that I'd ever noticed that one...
16:43<b_jonas>:-)
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16:46<b_jonas>the new diagonal dynamite and landscaping tools are nice, but could we also have diagonal plant trees and diagonal rail conversion?
16:47<frosch123>rail conversion would be more useful if it would follow the track like signals
16:48<TWerkhoven[l]>is ther any point in diagonal treeplanting? you cannot use the other half of the tile for anything but trees anyway
16:50<z-MaTRiX>and i wanted to bring water from the ocean to the city and sell it as ddrinking water ;<
16:52<@Terkhen>I had a patch for diagonal rail conversion but ^
16:52<z-MaTRiX>how about a patch for gridless openttd ?
16:52<z-MaTRiX>:)
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>that exists already
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>try opengfx+landscape grf
16:53<z-MaTRiX>i mean floatingpoint orientations
16:53<z-MaTRiX>curved tracks
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>that exists also, try TTT :)
16:53<z-MaTRiX>yeah
16:54<b_jonas>curved tracks that are somewhere in the middle between TTD and Locomotion could make sense, but that would change the entire game
16:54<b_jonas>and it would still use grids
16:54<b_jonas>also, you'd need diagonal bridges first
16:54<b_jonas>which is not easy
16:54<z-MaTRiX>too bad its not 3d
16:55<b_jonas>Locomotion *is* 3d. that's the main problem
16:55<z-MaTRiX>it would be fun rotating everything anyway and having first person view
16:55<FHerne>What's the problem with diagonal bridges?
16:55<z-MaTRiX>hehe
16:56<z-MaTRiX>and diagonal tunnels?
16:56<Prof_Frink> The Great Lord Chris deemed them unnecessary.
16:56<z-MaTRiX>but...
16:57<z-MaTRiX>without grid land construction with excabators would be a whole new world <;
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16:59<b_jonas>diagonal bridges would be nice.
16:59<Wolf01>a flexible terrain but with a grid for buildings would be nice, like sim city 4
16:59<z-MaTRiX>i thought a flight simulator enbedded would be nice
17:00<z-MaTRiX>flying with own helicopter/aeroplane as company owner
17:00<FHerne>And a system for allowing air-to surface strikes from carriers?
17:00<@Terkhen>a whole new game :)
17:00<z-MaTRiX>:)
17:01<Wolf01>'night
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17:01<z-MaTRiX>yeah
17:01<z-MaTRiX>terrorism
17:01<z-MaTRiX>and real physics
17:01<@Terkhen>enjoy coding ;)
17:01<@Terkhen>good night
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17:02<z-MaTRiX>:)
17:02-!-Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
17:02<z-MaTRiX>real physics wouldnt be hard
17:02<z-MaTRiX>but that would change the game
17:02<z-MaTRiX>like having 1day = 1day in game
17:04<MNIM>real physics already are in game with the realistic acceleration options.
17:04-!-devilsadvocate [~quassel@109.200.19.188] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:04<MNIM>however, time shortening is simply a requirement for making it playable
17:04<z-MaTRiX>well
17:04<z-MaTRiX>i have tested the physics
17:06<z-MaTRiX>built a monorail line downhill to another company's station, parked an engine at the end, then driven many engines at 305kmh into it, no damamge at all
17:07<z-MaTRiX>i was expecting some overflow to the station
17:09<b_jonas>that's because the trains start to break in advance
17:10-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc32e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:16<z-MaTRiX>there was another company's train in the station
17:16<z-MaTRiX>i expected it to be destroyed
17:19<z-MaTRiX>btw ther ewas a bug in original ttd's collision detection that allowed the trains to be taken out
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17:21<Eddi|zuHause>you can never destroy other companies' property
17:22<z-MaTRiX>:)
17:22<b_jonas>it seems that town authorities hate demolishing trees more than demolishing houses
17:23<z-MaTRiX>is this implemented as a new feature?
17:23<b_jonas>"gas station"?
17:23<z-MaTRiX>b_jonas<< yes "save the trees, eat beavers !"
17:23<b_jonas>what does that do?
17:24<b_jonas>hmm, it's from the Japanese buildings set
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>it probably accepts petrol when playing with ECS
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>or FIRS
17:27<b_jonas>I see
17:28<Prof_Frink>Eddi|zuHause: Except road vehicles.
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, i think that's stupid as well
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>the train and RV should both just break down, ratings drop, and then everybody goes on their way
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17:30<Eddi|zuHause>way less headaches involved
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17:31<supermop>there should be collisions that are not total write offs
17:32<@Yexo><z-MaTRiX> i expected it to be destroyed <- that bug has been fixed quite some time ago
17:33<z-MaTRiX>:)
17:34<appe>hm
17:35<appe>in the esc industry packs, i get to put passengers on the oil rigs
17:35<appe>i guess that means more passengers to the rig equals more oil to be collected?
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17:36<appe>ah, never mind
17:36<z-MaTRiX>i believe its related to how much oil is taken from it
17:36<b_jonas>I think openttd originally started without the strange routing bugs of openttd, such as diagonal rails on the same tile counting connected, depot counted as if it has an exit on the back side, etc
17:36<b_jonas>the signals worked in openttd correctly from start
17:36<appe>clicking the upper part made it show the what's-waiting window, and clicking the lower part made it show the industry window
17:36<appe>and it seems z-MaTRiX is correct
17:36<appe>neat.
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: no, all those bugs were actually included in openttd, and fixed over time
17:38<z-MaTRiX>we want them baack :)
17:39<z-MaTRiX>the water bug looks 1337
17:40<z-MaTRiX>or pr0
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17:46<appe>jesus christ what an expansion
17:46<appe>added a ten-ish boats with passengers to the rig
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17:46<appe>with this kind of increase, i really need a passenger relay system
17:49<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: I see
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20:28<supermop>hello
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---Logclosed Mon Oct 03 00:00:57 2011