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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-06

---Logopened Thu Oct 06 00:00:15 2011
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00:39<z-MaTRiX>hey
00:41-!-Pawz [~chatzilla@203-59-135-71.perm.iinet.net.au] has joined #openttd
00:43<Pawz>hello people
00:44<Pawz>does anyone here have a copy of FIRS that works with the 32bbp + Extra zoom levels?
00:49<Pawz>it's unfortunately difficult to find all the bits and pieces of things to get 'em all working together
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01:00<@planetmaker>Pawz: there's no reason FIRS should not work with 32bpp or extra zoom
01:00<@planetmaker>Unless of course, if that binary is too old
01:00<@planetmaker>where then FIRS 0.6.4 as from bananas should still work
01:00<@planetmaker>and good morning :-)
01:03<Pawz>howdy :) It's not quite that it's not working, it's just that I've got this odd issue where I end up with duplicates of the road vehicles - like 2 regal busses (one 32bpp one not)
01:04<@planetmaker>which is totally unrelated to FIRS
01:04<Pawz>is it? hm
01:05<@planetmaker>and probably rather related to something like "old vehicles, new cargos" Newgrf or similar
01:05<Pawz>OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles perhaps?
01:05<@planetmaker>of course. FIRS is industries and cargos. Not vehicles
01:05<Pawz>does FIRS update vehicles with the new cargo types ?
01:05<@planetmaker>no
01:06<@planetmaker>and never will
01:07<Pawz>ok... but you need some vehicles to transport the new goods
01:08<Pawz>so for example I grabbed the 'ECS & FIRS original vehicle set' grf, which seemed to do that
01:08<@planetmaker>yes, that'll be the newgrf which causes double vehicles
01:09<Pawz>am I going about this the wrong way then?
01:09<Pawz>or do I just have to give up on 32bpp
01:10<Pawz>when it works, it looks amazing though
01:10<@planetmaker>I don't know that NewGRF. But I know only one vehicle set which provides vehicles in 32bpp
01:10<@planetmaker>which is grvts
01:10<@planetmaker>(not egrvts)
01:11*Pawz cancels egrvts
01:11<Pawz>heh
01:12<Pawz>grvts doesn't show up as an online newgrf
01:12<@planetmaker>it isn't
01:12<Elukka>sets that don't have 32bpp sprites should still work, just, well, it won't have 32bpp sprites
01:12<@planetmaker>and yes, the sets should ALL work
01:12<@planetmaker>just the sprites will show in the usual 8bpp
01:12<Pawz>yeah, just the duplicated vehicles thing
01:13<@planetmaker>Pawz: that's the result of *one* vehicle NewGRF which does re-define the original vehicles
01:13<Pawz>mhm, so I'm looking for a way to have FIRS cargos, on 32bpp trucks!
01:13<@planetmaker>did you try starting a new game without this ecs and firs original vehicle newgrf?
01:13<Pawz>:)
01:13-!-mib_ji5sws [43a96030@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
01:14<@planetmaker>Pawz: that does not exist
01:14<mib_ji5sws>hey guys
01:14<mib_ji5sws>i have a question...
01:14<Pawz>hm. poop.
01:14<@planetmaker>neither FIRS is 32bpp nor are there vehicles with all those cargos in 32bpp
01:14<mib_ji5sws>lets say I have a website. I can embed a youtube video in it.
01:14<@planetmaker>it all will work on 32bpp though
01:14<@planetmaker>just not use that many colours
01:14<Pawz>yeah, I can get it working fine without the high res vehicles
01:14-!-Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd
01:14<mib_ji5sws>In fact, I could embed multiple youtube videos in it. So that if someone opened the original link, all of those youtube videos' views would increase by 1, correct?
01:15<Elukka>incidentally, is higher resolution sprites a feature of 32bpp or extra zoom levels?
01:15<mib_ji5sws>Is there anyway I can embed a website within another website?
01:15<Pawz>extra zoom levels
01:15-!-mib_ji5sws is now known as Anwar
01:15<Elukka>i don't mean actually zooming in more, just the 32bpp sprites seem to be much higher resolution
01:15<Pawz>well, yeah they look nicer at standard zoom
01:15<@planetmaker>Elukka: it's a common mis-conception that 32bpp requires the extra-zoom binary or patch.
01:15<@planetmaker>normal openttd supports 32bpp
01:16<Elukka>yeah i know
01:17<Pawz>time to try the dev nightly 32bpp build
01:17<Anwar>My question:
01:17<Anwar>Hey guys. I can embed multiple videos to a site, so that if someone opens the site, the videos' views increase by one for every video. Is there any way I can embed a website into another website, so that if someone visits the original website, the embedded website is requested and displayed on it as well? Thanks.
01:17<Pawz>since the standard one seems to have hardly anything in it
01:17<Elukka>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=123792
01:17<Elukka>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=123792
01:17<Elukka>what i mean is the 32bpp sprite obviously has way more resolution
01:17<Pawz>yeah it looks awesome
01:17<Elukka>err, and i linked the same thing twice it seems :P
01:18<Elukka>so... without extra zoom levels, would the 32bpp sprite look like that or would it be as pixelated as the 8 bit sprite+
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01:19<Pawz>it would look a lot better
01:19<Pawz>you can tell right away with the new sprites
01:21<Pawz>I can post a screenshot somewhere if you like
01:24<Pawz>of course now I've screwed up my copy somehow -_-
01:27<Elukka>i know what it looks like with extra zoom levels, but i'm curious how it looks without it
01:27<Elukka>guess i could just go try grvts
01:29<Pawz>does anyone have a compilation pack of 32bit sprites somewhere?
01:30<Pawz>I don't mean a perfectly complete one, just one that is 'everything currently made / in progress'
01:32<Pawz>hmm wonder what happens if you unpack the sprite folder outta the tars
01:33<Pawz>huh. lookit that it works. Guess that would solve issues with tars over writing each other. maybe.
01:34<Pawz>whoever did the 32 bit menu did a great job
01:37<@planetmaker>zephyris probably ;-)
01:39<Elukka>i would like to play with 32bpp, but it looks so out of place unless everything is 32bpp...
01:39<Elukka>if there was a 32bpp base set i think grf artists would be much more inclined for making 32bpp sprites
01:40<Pawz>I found a wiki entry about a 32bpp base set
01:40<Pawz>But it didn't say much
01:40<Elukka>as far as i know nobody's really making one
01:40<Pawz>Is there somewhere that lists all the sprites in the game?
01:41<Elukka>not sure
01:41<Elukka>either way it'd be just shy of 7000 sprites to draw
01:42<Pawz>tough part at the moment seems to be finding all the sprites already done
01:42<Pawz>Wonder what the OpenGFX guys used
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01:43<Elukka>well it was a well-concerted effort with fancy tracking tables and devzone stuff
01:43<Elukka>i wish there was a 32bpp base set project but i don't feel inclined to make one :P
01:46<Pawz>I'd be happy with someone who's got all the 32bpp sprites posting their data folder :)
01:47<Pawz>I have yet to find any game even close to OpenTTD in terms of game mechanics
01:47<Pawz>it's just that on 1920 x1200 it gets a little too small
01:48<Elukka>i agree
01:48<Elukka>even just an extra zoom level without new sprites would be nice
01:49<Pawz>well, have you tried the extra zoom binaries?
01:49<Elukka>sure, things would be more pixelated but whatever
01:49<Elukka>from what i've seen the extra zoom level patch makes old sprites blurry
01:49<Pawz>well, blurry / pixelated, similar effect
01:50<Elukka>i dunno
01:50<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/4_abteilwagen.png
01:50<Elukka>i'd much rather have that than blur
01:50<Elukka>that's a normal resolution 8 bit sprite at 200% zoom
01:51<Pawz>well, it's not quite blur
01:51<Pawz>it's some kind of 'round off the edges' algorithm they've got going
01:51<Elukka>there's different zoom algorithms... browsers tend to do the blurry thing, graphics programs dont'
01:51<Elukka>i think the blur in extra zoom levels looks awful
01:54<@Terkhen>good morning
01:54<@Terkhen>Pawz: http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/authors/script.php?feature=spritesbyfile&q=ogfx1_base
01:54<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
01:54<Pawz>http://tinypic.com/r/244y2p2/7
01:55<@planetmaker>Elukka: do you draw cets in 32bpp?
01:55<Pawz>there you go Elukka that's at the next zoom level
01:55<Elukka>planetmaker, nah
01:55<@Terkhen>32bpp with 8bpp looks out of place, yes
01:57<Pawz>terkhen that's pretty comprehensive!
01:58<Elukka>humh. that doesn't have the kind of blur i thought it had
01:58<Elukka>might be i've only seen ancient screenshots
01:58<Pawz>you can see in there the difference the 32bpp makes
01:58<Pawz>with proper zoom levels
01:58<Elukka>yeah
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01:59<Elukka>planetmaker, that file probably isn't indexed since it's just a WIP shot, but i draw using the palette
01:59<Elukka>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/1948/pr_4_abteilwagen_3kl_10lu.png
01:59<Elukka>that's the actual game version
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01:59<Pawz>lol that page just made firefox crash
02:00<Pawz>so, is there anyone still active who maintains those scripts Terkhen? How hard would it be to get the source and/or add a column for 32 bit?
02:03<@planetmaker>just use a slightly different link... http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/newgrf.php?1=2633:2691
02:03<Pawz>or is it just insane to think about organising 'em
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02:04<@planetmaker>but I'm not sure how up to date the 32bpp part is
02:04<@planetmaker>those people develop the stuff elsewhere
02:05<Pawz>is that built from a repository somewhere?
02:06<@planetmaker>yes
02:07<Pawz>same one as the jupix one?
02:07<@planetmaker>no :-) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx and ...
02:09<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/32bpp
02:09<@planetmaker>not sure they use a vcs on jupix server really
02:10<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/32bpp-extra <-- I meant that :-)
02:10<Pawz>yeah found that one :)
02:10<@planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx32bpp <-- or that? Dunno :-)
02:10<appe>i guess you didnt miss the news about steve jobs.
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02:11<@planetmaker>hard to miss
02:14<Pawz>farkles, there's TWO wikis lol
02:15<Pawz>it's like poking a bag that things keep falling out of
02:15<Pawz>in a good way
02:15<@planetmaker>two wikis?
02:16<@planetmaker>hundrets! ;-)
02:16<Pawz>well, there's the whole openTTD thing and then the openTTDCoop
02:16<@planetmaker>oh, sure
02:17<@planetmaker>but why shouldn't?
02:17<@planetmaker>it's two different things ;-)
02:17<@planetmaker>one for the game. And one for a particular gaming community ;-)
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02:20<Pawz>and the gaming community hosts the graphics project for the game
02:20<@planetmaker>ah... well. you mean OpenGFX?
02:21<@planetmaker>yes. The DevZone evolved quite well :-)
02:22<Pawz>well, colour me impressed all around :)
02:22<@planetmaker>Reason might be that it was easier for me to setup things on my server when I started working on the graphics project ;-)
02:23<appe>propellerheads reason <3.
02:23<@peter1138>i guess when we 'adopted' opengfx, there was no particular need to move any of its working development process...
02:24<Pawz>Is there perhaps more information than the standard openttd wiki for creating sprites?
02:24<@planetmaker>there are two more wikis ;-)
02:24<Pawz>Like, say, a 3dsmax file with all the standard tiles... oh dear
02:24<Pawz>you weren't kidding about the 'hundrets and hundrets' were you
02:24<Pawz>lol
02:24<@peter1138>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/ :D
02:25<@planetmaker>http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Tutorials and http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Main or http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page
02:25<@peter1138>i'm not sure why it's separate
02:25<@peter1138>possibly because the remaining ttdpatch user doesn't want newgrf to be too associated with openttd...
02:25<@planetmaker>well. NewGRF specs being separate makes sense. Somewhat
02:25<Pawz>only one of those eh? :)
02:26<@planetmaker>no. all of those
02:26<@planetmaker>:-)
02:26<Elukka>"TTD internally uses a 3D engine, which then uses an isometric projection to display graphics on a 2D screen."
02:26<Elukka>it... runs a 3D engine?
02:26<@planetmaker>Pawz: and it proves usually quite helpful to look at existing newgrf projects
02:26<Elukka>i suppose the graphics engine is 2D?
02:26<@planetmaker>you find many on the devzone again.
02:27<@planetmaker>it's pure 2D, Elukka. or 2.5D
02:27<Elukka>or could you really just unlock the camera and move around in a (very flat) world?
02:27<Elukka>i see
02:27<@Terkhen>Elukka: where did you find that text? :P
02:27<Elukka>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/PalettesAndCoordinates#Coordinates
02:27<@peter1138>some parts have 3D coordinates
02:28<@peter1138>that doesn't really make it a 3D engine
02:28<@planetmaker>hence 2.5D ;-)
02:28<Elukka>yeah, i thought it was a 2D engine
02:28<Elukka>i suppose the wiki is a bit wrong
02:28<@Terkhen>I wouldn't call an engine that uses bounding boxes "3D engine" :P
02:28<@planetmaker>o_O That was the last place I expected such statement
02:30<Pawz>oddly enough I crossed paths with that page yesterday and thought the same thing
02:39<Pawz>planetmaker is there a root page for that script with the 32bpp graphics?
02:39<Pawz>I'm basically trying to find somewhere I can pick a sprite and 'upgrade' it to 32bpp
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02:41<@Terkhen>Pawz: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=42293 <--- that is the thread of the may 32bpp project... I would prefer it if they were sprite-oriented instead of pack oriented, though
02:41<@Terkhen>s/may/main/
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02:42<@planetmaker>I still think the project might profit from using one repo. And just starting to use one license instead of many. And that's it.
02:42<Pawz>Terken: Is that seperate from the http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/32bpp project?
02:42<Pawz>it seems scattered between a few places
02:43<@Terkhen>Pawz: I don't know much about the project, sorry
02:43<@planetmaker>Pawz: you found one of the things which hinder progress there ;-)
02:43<@Terkhen>but ^
02:45<Pawz>ok.. then.. planetmaker.. what if someone were to say, grab all the stuff from the jupix repo and break it down by sprite and upload it to the 32bpp project?
02:45<@Terkhen>you will be hindered by different licenses
02:45<@planetmaker>I'd probably make an OpenGFX clone, call it OpenGFX-32bpp and bundle the 32bpp files on top
02:45<@planetmaker>in a new project
02:45<@planetmaker>and look for gpl sprites only
02:45<@Terkhen>I'd create a new project, with a license decided from the very beginning and start asking authors for their permission to relicense
02:46<@Terkhen>otherwise it will be a nightmare :P
02:46<@planetmaker>and I'm not exactly sure how it's organized on jupix' server
02:46<@Terkhen>note that I don't know if the current project has done that relicense task
02:47<@planetmaker>I just know there's still stuff with different licenses
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02:47<@planetmaker>but in which bundles or when and where... dunno
02:48<@planetmaker>Pawz: but in principle that's what one could do - as long as one minds the license of the graphics and only uses those which on may
02:49<Pawz>Planetmaker: alright. Where do the images come from in that script you gave me ?
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02:51<Pawz>since the only successful way to do this would be to have a proper repository that compared the base sprites to the 32bpp
02:52<Pawz>which *looks* like what you've got already
02:52<@planetmaker>hm, I'd have said it comes from the 32bpp project http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/32bpp
02:52<@planetmaker>but I wonder about the repo...
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02:55<Pawz>is that seperate from what Jupix is doing?
02:55<Pawz>That thread seems to indicate he's running some kind of 32bpp base conversion project
02:55<@planetmaker>I don't quite know
02:56<@Terkhen>that project is managed by GeekToo and IIRC he was the one updating the extra-zoom patch
02:56<@planetmaker>yes
02:58<Pawz>ok so we're definitely talking two overlapping projects
02:58<Pawz>the sprite based approach seems much cleaner though
02:59<@planetmaker>well, it's definitely at least in parts done by the same people iirc
02:59<@Terkhen>and IMO we need a project geared towars creating a 32bpp base set, not a project that aims to help with 32bpp pack distribution
03:00<@peter1138>last time i looked at 32bpp they were all distracted by ugly mismatching extra zoom sprites...
03:00<@Terkhen>yes, extra zoom could come later, once that a base set is working
03:00<@Terkhen>that would increase the interest in extra zoom
03:00<@planetmaker>yes, definitely
03:00<Pawz>I suppose the difficulty there is that once you've got a 3d model rendered it's dead simple to make more zoom levels
03:01<@planetmaker>one big backdraw though: 32bpp cannot be distributed yet via bananas
03:01<@planetmaker>Pawz: probably
03:01<@peter1138>only because there's nothing to distribute yet, therefore it was never written...
03:01<@planetmaker>of course :-)
03:02<@planetmaker>someone got the download link for the current 32bpp sprites at hand?
03:02<Pawz>har
03:02<Pawz>that's what got me started on this
03:03<Pawz>there IS no link for the current ones
03:03<@planetmaker>:-)
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03:03<@peter1138>if only i could draw...
03:03<Pawz>I can draw
03:03<Pawz>if I knew what I needed to draw
03:03<@peter1138>one other problem they have is they try to perfect every single sprite they do
03:04<Pawz>hey you gotta admit the sprites they DO have look amazing
03:04<@peter1138>yes, individually
03:04<@planetmaker>but not all-together
03:04<@planetmaker>there's (also) different styles
03:05<@planetmaker>hm... with those sprites I have not even all ground tiles seem done... :S
03:05<@peter1138>open up opengfx to see what needs to be drawn :)
03:05<@planetmaker>looks ugly this way
03:06<@planetmaker>uh?
03:06<@planetmaker>http://imagebin.org/177618
03:07<@peter1138>what happened there?
03:07<@planetmaker>I just use the 32bpp-anim blitter :-)
03:07<@planetmaker>Nothing more
03:07<@peter1138>oh right, unfinished 32bpp stuff :p
03:08<@planetmaker>and as such the 32bpp sprites which I could find. I got the pack from jupix site one? two? weeks ago
03:08<@peter1138>the roads look odd :S
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03:09<@planetmaker>http://jupix.info/openttd/gfxdev-nightlies/ <-- Pawz that's where I got the stuff and which is currently the official download link iirc
03:09<Pawz>^ yeah that link gives you 27 tars
03:09<Pawz>well, compiled from 27
03:09<@peter1138>that's... ugh
03:09<Pawz>the dev one is like 100+
03:10<Pawz>and is about 65mb :)
03:11<@planetmaker>Pawz: but then, use that tar, see what is missing ingame and you know what needs drawing :-)
03:12<@planetmaker>and my 8bpp shores are nicer :-P
03:13<@planetmaker>(I dislike shores straight as a ruler)
03:13<Pawz>Well, what stops me is that I *know* there's some more stuff out there (like fences!) that isn't showing up in the nightly dev build and I can't remember where the heck I found it in the first place
03:14<Pawz>since at first I was like 'hey cool, I can make a fence, that's easy'
03:14<Pawz>and then the organisation expedition began :)
03:14<Pawz>Which brings me back to the question of where the heck are those nice sprites you show in your PHP script? :)
03:15<Pawz>some of them exist here.. hmm
03:17<@planetmaker>:-) If I knew exactly, I'd have told you
03:18<@planetmaker>they are sure all part of *some* 32bpp pack
03:18<@planetmaker>probably even an extra-zoom pack as they're twice the required size
03:19<Pawz>yeah plus the script has the extra zoom levels
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03:34<Pawz>planetmaker: is there a root page for this script? http://mz.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/newgrf.php?1=1600:1700
03:37<@planetmaker>not directly. I thought it was from the OpenGFX project. But that's slightly different
03:38<Pawz>i think i found it!
03:38<Pawz>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx32bpp
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03:40<Ammler>those are not related, as I setup the php script, I imported some 32bpp tars, those were never updated
03:41<Ammler>only the opengfx sprites are linked to nightly, the rest is static
03:41<Ammler>(and maybe 3 years old)
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03:45<@planetmaker>Ammler: maybe we just start a 32bpp nightly? :-)
03:45<@planetmaker>All gpl, no frills, normal zoom only?
03:45<Pawz>may as well add the option for all zoom levels eh
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03:46<@planetmaker>maybe
03:46<@planetmaker>but the zoom-levels patch as is has serious short-comings
03:47<Ammler>planetmaker: baseset?
03:47<@planetmaker>Yes, sorta. Like take OpenGFX and put on 32bpp sprites where available
03:47<@planetmaker>and kinda use the 32bpp-extra for the extra grf
03:47<Ammler>yes, but then we first should convert to nml
03:47<@planetmaker>yes
03:48<@planetmaker>we should indeed. Easier in that case
03:48<Pawz>the patch may have shortcomings, but the core concept is a good one
03:48<@planetmaker>let's say: the idea: yes
03:48<Ammler>well, nml is the only tool which supports 32bpp
03:48<Ammler>so required imo
03:48<@planetmaker>yes. though there's pngcodec
03:48<@planetmaker>but doing it in NML is much nicer / easier and all
03:49<Ammler>I would not call that a tool :-P
03:49<@planetmaker>it's a tool like nforenum and grfcodec
03:49<@planetmaker>it's the assembler for 32bpp where nml is the "c" ;-)
03:49<@planetmaker>so... would I need nml support for OpenGFX, eh?
03:50<@planetmaker>or we (first) start an NML branch for OpenGFX
03:50<Ammler>well, it is not independent tool
03:50<@planetmaker>branch. Not repo
03:50<Ammler>you need another script to run it
03:51<Pawz>well, if I can help in any way.. ?
03:52<Pawz>not sure how much work you're talking about that's all :)
03:52<@planetmaker>Pawz: that's talking about quite some work :-)
03:53<Ammler>no chance to convert opengfx via script to nml?
03:53<@planetmaker>as it means a re-write of a base set
03:53<@planetmaker>Ammler: not entirely. But it could be done in large parts
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03:54<@planetmaker>it would fail where we use the templates
03:54<@planetmaker>which we do not do in most cases
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03:55<Ammler>is the same tar able to have normal and ez sprites?
03:56<Pawz>what *are* ez sprites?
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03:56<Ammler>32bpp are same size as 8bpp
03:56<Ammler>32bpp-ez have differen sizes
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03:58<Pawz>the -ez ones use NML for correct positioning then?
03:58<Ammler>the issue is because everyone thinks ez is the "normal" 32bpp, people still stay making 8bpp graphcis
03:59<Ammler>instead making 32bpp right from start and not care about the very limited palette anymore
03:59<@peter1138>:S
03:59<@planetmaker>Pawz: probably not and they use nfo. But not sure
03:59<@planetmaker>or pngcodec
03:59<@planetmaker>nml is still a very new language
03:59<Ammler>IMO, openttd should trash 8bpp and use 32bpp only
04:00<@planetmaker>nah
04:00<@planetmaker>8bpp is still faster
04:00<Ammler>you have proves?
04:00<@planetmaker>but newgrfs can meanwhile declare their preferred blitter. Thus... it's just about using it
04:00<@planetmaker>Ammler: yes. it could be easily proven
04:01<Ammler>I thought it is just a bit more memory usage
04:01<@planetmaker>and thus needs more memory shuffling and updating. Thus it's slower :-)
04:01<Ammler>which openttd has bascially none
04:01<Pawz>well, maybe if you're running on 256mb of ram :)
04:02<@planetmaker>that's sufficient, Pawz for any openttd
04:02<Ammler>Pawz: how much memory has a today phone?
04:02<Pawz>no idea. are phone users a pretty big user base?
04:03<Pawz>I'd think it'd be terribly painful to use the game on a phone.
04:03<Ammler>don't think so, just think, those might be the only user which would suffer from more memory usage
04:03<appe>bill evans is a god damn hero.
04:03<Pawz>regardless, there's no point in dumping 8bit if you've got 'em all already
04:03<Ammler>nah, you still need to support it
04:04<Ammler>it is not like done
04:04<Ammler>there is no opengfx 1.0 :-)
04:04<Pawz>oh? I though OpenGFX had replaced all teh sprites
04:04<@planetmaker>it has
04:04<@planetmaker>we just didn't call it 1.0 for whatever reason
04:04<Pawz>so that's not 'done'? :)
04:04<@planetmaker>toyland could use more climate-specific sprites
04:04<Ammler>planetmaker: because it isn't done
04:05<Pawz>you just want to add ice to your rivers don't you
04:05<@planetmaker>and some other things might need a slight overhaul to look better
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04:05<@planetmaker>Pawz: yes... but don't they have ice?
04:05<@planetmaker>or you want ice floating?
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04:05<Pawz>floating ice that animates!
04:05<@planetmaker>no animation. Floating ice is feasible
04:06<Pawz>I'd like 32bpp floating ice please.
04:06<@planetmaker>the buoy has floating ice around it, if above snow line ;-)
04:06<Ammler>oh, isn't animation a bit issue on 32bpp, btw.?
04:06<Ammler>or at least the action colors
04:06<Pawz>apparently it's just not there?
04:06<Pawz>I think the palette cycling doesn't work
04:06<@planetmaker>let's see
04:07<Ammler>then we have a real reason not to drop 8bpp :-)
04:07<Ammler>s/bit/big/
04:07<Pawz>I'd call it a reason to add animating to 32bit
04:08<norbert79>Ammler: Memory usage? That could be also an additional reason... Just saying.
04:08<Ammler>norbert79: really?
04:08<norbert79>Ammler: Well, I am thinking on machines which don't have a GPU included
04:08<@planetmaker>palette animation works
04:09<@planetmaker>norbert79: openttd needs not really a gui
04:09<@planetmaker>err... gpu
04:09<Ammler>are there any benchmarks/stats avialable somewhere
04:09<@planetmaker>just some video memory
04:09<norbert79>planetmaker: Exactly. 8 bit uses less of it...
04:09<Ammler>I mean the difference needs to be damn huge as 8bpp uses no memory
04:09<norbert79>if it is important still
04:10<norbert79>Ammler: It uses, but not the system RAM
04:10<norbert79>Memory isn't always RAM only :)
04:10<@planetmaker>Ammler: the amount of memory needed for graphics is about 4 times as big for 32bpp when compared to 8bpp
04:10<Ammler>I see, and that is different from 8bpp to 32bpp?
04:10<@planetmaker>thus... it will be slower
04:11<Ammler>planetmaker: thats sounds for me like you calculated 32/8 :-P
04:11<@planetmaker>bah. 32bpp coal mines are... in need of a serious overhaul
04:11<@planetmaker>coal pile looks like just a black dot
04:11<@planetmaker>no dust anywhere. Waaaay too clean for such mine
04:12<@planetmaker>newly kärcher'ed buildings...
04:12<Pawz>how much of a process is it to get a standard png into the game?
04:12<Ammler>does a today graphic card really take advance from 8bpp graphcis?
04:13<Pawz>I don't know anything about making newgrfs or whatnot, but I can make some sprites
04:13<Pawz>Ammler - it *may* IF the sprites are rendered through a 3d engine
04:13<Pawz>which I doubt OTTD does
04:14<Ammler>I really would like some stats/benchmarks which show difference from 8bpp to 32bpp
04:14<Ammler>(no ez)
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04:14<@planetmaker>Pawz: in principle as much work as using http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:32bpp_sprites on sprites, i.e. only slightly over getting a normal newgrf up and running
04:15<norbert79>Pawz: I love the fact, that OpenTTD doesn't need any accelerated GPU to be able to work, so it can be ran even on very old machines too
04:15<Pawz>norbert79: wasn't suggesting it should be otherwise :)
04:15<norbert79>Pawz: Would be sad if it would be changed
04:16<Pawz>just sayin' that it wouldn't use the GPU to do anything
04:16<Ammler>norbert79: and that can't handle 32bpp?
04:17<norbert79>Ammler: Well, very old GFX card cannot handle 32 bpp that fast, for example an S3 Virge might go well with it, while a plain S3 would suffer
04:17<norbert79>Ammler: But these all are assumptions, since old games used to use 8bit, but that got 'projected' onto a 32 bit resolution
04:18<norbert79>Ammler: So basically it looked better, but still all sprites were 8 bit
04:18<Ammler>well, that 8bpp and 32bpp doesn't differ noticeable is also (my) assumption ;-)
04:18<norbert79>Ammler: Memory usage... Still... more bpp, more memory needed
04:18<Ammler>norbert79: 32bpp would not have any issue to render 8bpp, would it?
04:19<norbert79>?
04:19<Ammler>norbert79: 4 times the memory from now would not be much more
04:19<norbert79>That would make the CPU usage higher
04:19<Ammler>it would still be below 100MB
04:19<@planetmaker>Ammler: 8bpp is mostly also faster with the (palette) animation
04:19<@planetmaker>which needs to be done quite differently for 32bpp
04:19<Ammler>at max 200
04:19<@planetmaker>and palette animation is a core part of openttd graphics
04:19<norbert79>Why to use 32 bit sprites and converting those back to 8 bit? Doesn't make sense
04:20<V453000>well the main CPU melt that openttd makes is pathfinding and other not-drawing actions I suppose
04:20<Ammler>norbert79: I meant using the 8bpp sprites and render with 32bpp
04:20<V453000>so a slight increase in drawing might not be that drastical?
04:20<Ammler>I guess, that is already that way, if you enable 32bpp
04:20<@planetmaker>V453000: not only. zooming out on a busy map uses significant amounts of cpu
04:20<V453000>true
04:20<norbert79>Ammler: Yes
04:20<@planetmaker>and look at the speed up for fast-forward you get for a full-screen window and a minimized window
04:21<V453000>yes, didnt think about that
04:21<PeanutHorst>norbert79: good thing i use a ViRGE/DX
04:21<PeanutHorst>:p
04:21<@planetmaker>as all drawing and sprite update is on the cpu it's not negligible
04:21<Ammler>maybe we should ask SmatZ to make some benchmarks
04:21<norbert79>PeanutHorst: Lucky... I only could get a regular S3 back then... :)
04:21<Ammler>I mean everyone here does just guess, nobody really knows :-)
04:21<V453000>hm :) I am happy with 8bpp anyway :P
04:21<Ammler>or can prove
04:21<norbert79>PeanutHorst: it was way too expensive back then
04:22<norbert79>Ammler: Can't prove what?
04:22<@peter1138>s3... *shudder*
04:22<@peter1138>V453000, yeah, that's the problem :)
04:22<@peter1138>well "problem"
04:22<Ammler>norbert79: that dropping 8bpp blitter would slow down the game
04:22<Ammler>(noticeable)
04:23<norbert79>Ammler: Try it on older machines, you'll see using 32 bit... Besides, simple: create a BMP file, 640x480, save it in 32 bit and in 8 bit. Check filesizes
04:23<Ammler>yesyes
04:24<Ammler>that is obvious
04:24<Eddi|zuHause>man you guys talk waaay too much this early in the morning
04:24<PeanutHorst>norbert79: i was joking - but I do have a Virge DX around here
04:24<@Terkhen>:P
04:24<PeanutHorst>also an ATi RAGE IIc
04:24<Ammler>of course it will differ, I meant "noticeable"
04:24<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Headaches? :)
04:25<norbert79>Ammler: Even on my Intel 945 I can see huge difference, when using 32 bit, and fullscreen... It slows indeed down
04:25<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: I suggested to drop 8bpp, some people don't want :-P
04:26<Ammler>norbert79: you run openttd? :-o
04:26<norbert79>Ammler: Not right now, but home I use to play it with my son often in LAN
04:27<Ammler>hehe
04:27<Ammler>well, I meant the test you just did
04:27<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yeah, i came that far
04:27<Ammler>or do you speak from memory?
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04:28<norbert79>Ammler: Re-read my sentence, of course I am speaking about past experiences/tests
04:28<norbert79>Ammler: :)
04:28<Ammler>as all here do, nobody really knows :-)
04:28<Ammler>maybe peter1138 does, but he is silent about this topic :-P
04:29<@peter1138>i am?
04:29<@peter1138>what is it know?
04:29<@peter1138>+i
04:30<@peter1138>obviously not english
04:30<Ammler>would people notice, if openttd just drops 8bpp?
04:30<norbert79>Ammler: Yes
04:30<Ammler>:-)
04:30<@peter1138>someone would complain
04:30<@peter1138>possibly me ;)
04:30<norbert79>and many hundred others too
04:31<norbert79>tt-forums would die off from the slashdot effect
04:31<Ammler>don't the mac users run openttd in 32bpp mode since ever?
04:32<@peter1138>i thinks o
04:33<Ammler>planetmaker: I just think, you should also discuss this with your devs team, before we start a simple 32bpp opengfx clone
04:33<Eddi|zuHause>mac people are crazy anyway
04:33<norbert79>I think that's a touchy topic today...
04:33<@peter1138>i don't think that's relevant
04:34<Ammler>or well, we could call current opengfx 1.0 and continue on opengfx 2 with 32bpp :-)
04:34<PeanutHorst>agree on that one
04:34<@peter1138>heh, i remember i posted a screenshot of 32bpp openttd once ;)
04:34<PeanutHorst>or opengfx-ng (next gen)
04:34<PeanutHorst>:p
04:34<@peter1138>it was 8bpp graphics but using the 32bpp blitter :p
04:35*Ammler wonders if there will ever be 32bpp too few colors eihter?
04:35<@peter1138>well, it can't produce octarine
04:35<PeanutHorst>...
04:35<PeanutHorst>nothing can.
04:35<PeanutHorst>:)
04:35<dihedral>oi
04:35<Ammler>maybe we should make a kind of 1024bpp just to be sure
04:36<PeanutHorst>...
04:36<@peter1138>Ammler, some graphics cards can do 16 bits per channel (48bpp)
04:37<norbert79>peter1138: Used to ran Half Life in that mode, when played on a Pentium 200 MMX, with an older GFX card
04:37<@peter1138>but i doubt that's necessary for gaming
04:37<@peter1138>norbert79, no, that's 16bpp
04:37<norbert79>oh, wait, now I see
04:37<norbert79>sorry
04:37<norbert79>was confused with 16 bits/channel and with 16bpp
04:37<@peter1138>who thinks i should have a go at making antialiasing text with shadows look better? :p
04:38<@peter1138>-ing+ed
04:38<norbert79>peter1138: I don't...
04:38<@planetmaker>10:31 norbert79: tt-forums would die off from the slashdot effect <-- I'd not count on that
04:38<@peter1138>good call
04:38<@planetmaker>at least openttd website survived a slashdot already
04:38<@peter1138>it missed out on the opportunity to get notched :(
04:38<norbert79>peter1138: I don't get it, OpenTTD was never about shiny bleed-edge graphics, it looks even after 17 years as good as it looked in 2011
04:38<norbert79>I mean 1994
04:39<Ammler>what does andy like about the ttd graphcis, the limited colors or the pixeling?
04:39<@planetmaker>Ammler: what discussion would starting a 32bpp OpenGFX clone need?
04:39<norbert79>Ammler: Since when do you use a Personal Computer?
04:39<Eddi|zuHause>you can pixel-push 32bpp graphics just as well
04:40<Ammler>planetmaker: if we want to keep 8bpp opengfx
04:40<Ammler>or simply "close" that and continue with 32bpp opengfx only
04:40<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Sure, but it's just not the same...
04:40<@planetmaker>I don't think it's an either-or question
04:40<@planetmaker>They could live along eachother, couldn't they?
04:40<@peter1138>yes
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04:41<@Terkhen>yup
04:41<norbert79>Now I drop this conversdation and grab some food, I don't get it why it's such a rush dropping 8bpp, like all world would be depending on this...
04:41<@peter1138>norbert79, have you seen the text shadow with antialiased text on? :p
04:41<@peter1138>heh
04:41<@planetmaker>norbert79: I don't think anyone wants to really drop it here :-)
04:41<Ammler>norbert79: there is no hurry :-P
04:41<Eddi|zuHause>problem is that currently, if you go the 32bpp way, you have duplicate work with also providing 8bpp images
04:41<@peter1138>"rush"
04:41<@peter1138>hehe
04:41<@planetmaker>The only thing which is needed is easy 32bpp support. And graphics in 32bpp
04:41<norbert79>peter1138: I do graphics, I know the difference for sure, but I just like OpenTTD as it looks, as it is now :)
04:42<Ammler>norbert79: the question was just, if 8bpp has any advantage, which we didn't found any
04:42<norbert79>peter1138: I go even further: Heores of Might and Magic started to suck, when they moved away from the good old looks, and even the 5th Episode or the 6th isn't the same either... I would have kept the 2D look as it was, and I still think HoMM3 is the best
04:42<norbert79>Ammler: %s/any/many
04:43<Ammler>all without prove :-P
04:43<@planetmaker>norbert79: fully agreed on HOMM
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>i have not played any other than HoMM3
04:43<@planetmaker>Ammler: do the test: take a built-up psg. Measure cpu usage with both blitters and compare
04:43<norbert79>planetmaker: Ever tried WoG, Wake of Gods called 3.5? It's a nice try, but I still don't like it...
04:43<@planetmaker>norbert79: no
04:43<Ammler>I mean dropping 8bpp would not mean dropping 8bpp newgrfs
04:44<@planetmaker>don't even know that name
04:44<@planetmaker>Ammler: but then... why drop 8bpp?
04:44<@planetmaker>Any reason?
04:44<norbert79>planetmaker: It's an extension to HoMM3, and there is also a project in place called: VCMI for HoMM http://forum.vcmi.eu/portal.php
04:44<Ammler>so you don't need to support it anymore
04:44<@planetmaker>it's a blitter which is there. So what?
04:44<norbert79>planetmaker: Basically they try to do with HoMM3 the same what OpenTTD is for TTD
04:45<@planetmaker>ah
04:45<@planetmaker>I shall look at that. thanks
04:45<norbert79>planetmaker: You are welcome
04:46<Ammler>planetmaker: that's the point, you keep 8bpp in openttd, because it might have influence on psg (what's psg?)
04:47<@planetmaker>public server game? ;-)
04:48<V453000>:-D
04:48<@planetmaker>I surely know I can play longer with 8bpp than with 32bpp blitter :-)
04:48<Ammler>but you paused the game, I hope
04:48<norbert79>Professional Service Gendre
04:48<Ammler>planetmaker: I thought, you need to use 32bpp
04:49<norbert79>Pretty Serious Game
04:49<@planetmaker>Ammler: no, I don't need to
04:49<Ammler>so my guess, that osx users need 32bpp was wrong
04:49<@planetmaker>it's just the default
04:49<@planetmaker>but I don't use it usually
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04:49<Ammler>why is it default?
04:50<@planetmaker>because there's hardware which has issues with 8bpp
04:50<@planetmaker>and the drivers obviously don't properly support that somewhere
04:50<@planetmaker>s/and/or/
04:51<@planetmaker>Ammler: and don't stop the game, but compare the very same game running
04:55<Ammler>equal cpu usage, 4MB more useage for 32bpp
04:55<Ammler>35 instead 31, so 8bpp is really waste of your time
04:57<Ammler> 9547 marcel 20 0 386m 44m 10m R 49 0.6 1:10.24 ./openttd -b 32bpp-anim
04:57<Ammler> 9493 marcel 20 0 409m 40m 10m R 47 0.5 1:31.19 ./openttd
04:59<V453000>why is it a waste?
04:59<V453000>I mean ... what is that much worse with it
04:59<Ammler>because as user I see no difference
05:01<Eddi|zuHause>"no diffference" doesn't pass as "worse" around here
05:01<Ammler>V453000: you might got it wrong, droping 8bpp blitter would not mean you can't use the 8bpp newgrfs :-)
05:01<V453000>probably :p
05:01<V453000>just trying to understand
05:01<Ammler>I mean, those 2 openttd looked exactly the same, I didn't use any 32bpp sprites
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05:03<Ammler>hmm, did I use the word "worse"?
05:03<Ammler>I just said, supporting 8bpp is waste of time
05:05<Pawz>how about supporting a 32bpp repository that sorts things by sprite number
05:05<Ammler>Pawz: just use nml
05:05<Pawz>that wouldn't be a waste of time! ;)
05:05<Ammler>nml does the numbering for you
05:05<V453000>but why is 8bpp a waste of time :) Do you mean it is better to draw 32bpp sprites, or just that 32bpp should be used regardless of the sprites
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05:05<Ammler>V453000: no
05:05<Ammler>it is just waste of time for the devs here
05:05<Pawz>just a question.. how bad does a 32bpp sprite look when run as 8b?
05:05<@planetmaker>it doesn't look
05:05<Ammler>as openttd 32bpp can happily use the 8bpp sprites without any drawback
05:05<@planetmaker>vice versa: no difference
05:05<V453000>I see, thanks
05:06<Ammler>Pawz: we have some "ugly" 32bpp houses in opengfx
05:06<@planetmaker>Ammler: here consistently 32bpp uses a few % more CPU
05:06<@peter1138>has anyone tried it?
05:06<@planetmaker>like 2...5%
05:06<Ammler>but as always with 32bpp it is wrongly also meant with ez
05:06<@planetmaker>and 5MB more ram (38 vs. 43)
05:07<Ammler>and the houses might be ugly because those were for ez
05:07<@planetmaker>opengfx-8bpp needs less noisy houses, too
05:08*planetmaker likes swedish-houses style
05:08<@peter1138>"someone" should do a complete set in sketchup ;)
05:08<Ammler>V453000: you would still need to draw 8bpp, if you like to stay with retrolook
05:09<V453000>well I mainly think that drawing in many more colours is much harder to do
05:10<Ammler>but if 32bpp doesn't support animations, it is useless anyway
05:10<V453000>maybe isnt, dont know
05:10<@planetmaker>Ammler: it does
05:10<Ammler>planetmaker: palette animations
05:10<@peter1138>it does, but only palette animation
05:10<@planetmaker>it does
05:10<Ammler>hmm - hmm
05:10<@planetmaker>hm, only palette animation?!
05:10<appe>"swedish-houses style"?
05:10<@planetmaker>the rest has nothing to do with blitter
05:10<Ammler>peter1138: might just said it wrong
05:10<@peter1138>as opposed to random changes within the sprite
05:10<V453000>appe: newGRF
05:10<@planetmaker>the "normal" animation
05:10<@peter1138>which isn't anything special about 32pp
05:10<@peter1138>+b
05:10<@planetmaker>peter1138: what random changes?
05:11<Pawz>isn't the 'normal' animation just a matter of flipping between sprites?
05:11<@planetmaker>appe: like the swedish-houses newgrf
05:11<@planetmaker>it's the nicest house newgrf around IMHO
05:11<@planetmaker>maybe next to ttrs
05:11<@peter1138>meh, *i* know what i mean :p
05:11<@planetmaker>but they're a bit different style
05:11<appe>oh, ok
05:11<@peter1138>not sure if i've seen swedish houses
05:12<@peter1138>but TAI looks quite nice
05:12<Ammler>does TAI have own graphics in the meantime?
05:12<@peter1138>always did
05:14<@peter1138>(yes, they're *very* *very* similar to the original graphics)
05:23<@Terkhen>:P
05:24<Pawz>hey quick question
05:24<Pawz>how do I swap blitters?
05:25<@planetmaker>by restarting openttd with another blitter :-)
05:25<@planetmaker>openttd -b blittername
05:26<Pawz>by googling blitter & openttd to figure out the config
05:26<Pawz>:)
05:26<@planetmaker>you know... you even got a readme
05:27<Pawz>hey it animates my 32bpp stuff
05:27<Pawz>well, the smoke on my power plant at least
05:28<@planetmaker>yes
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06:11<@peter1138>lull
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>your tongue is numb?
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06:26<@peter1138>yay, fancy antialiased text with shadows ;p
06:27<Eddi|zuHause>i wouldn't know, i only ever used the sprite font...
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06:28<@peter1138>hmm, 32bpp-anim still has the alpha bug
06:28<@Yexo>what alpha bug?
06:30<Pawz>oh man changing the font size & type in the config makes it SO much easier to read
06:32<@Terkhen>yes :P
06:34<Rubidium>Yexo: the one where animated colours don't propagate through transparent stuff
06:35<@peter1138>yexo, this one... http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/1.png
06:35<Pawz>hey is there a way to change a group of vehicle's service times at the same time?
06:35<@peter1138>can't remember what caused it now :S
06:36<@Yexo>peter1138: what part of your image?
06:36<@peter1138>the text
06:36<@peter1138>it's meant to be antialiased
06:36<@Yexo>ah
06:36<@peter1138>it's not a font issue though, it's a rendering problem
06:36<@Yexo>that's a differnet problem than what rb mentioned, right?
06:36<@peter1138>think so
06:37<@Yexo>which font is that?
06:37<@peter1138>can't remember, it's old. i think it's arial
06:37<@peter1138>i'll get a current one
06:38<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/anti.png
06:38<@peter1138>bit clearer :)
06:38<@peter1138>(also demonstrates the nicer text shadow)
06:40<@peter1138>((also we need kerning :p))
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06:43<@peter1138>only happens with 32bpp-anim, not the other 32bpp blitters
06:43<@Yexo>I can't reproduce it yet
06:44<@peter1138>happens less often with palette animation enabled, but still occurs
06:45<b_jonas>aren't you taking the "newspaper" thing too seriously? just because openttd shows a "newspaper" doesn't mean text has to have press quality.
06:45<@Yexo>http://devs.openttd.org/~yexo/font.png This is what I get, which looks fine
06:46<@peter1138>ok, make sure palette animation is off, then on the main menu, open up the newgrf settings window, then close it...
06:46<@Yexo>palette animation is the "full animation" buttin in game right?
06:46<@Yexo>that one was already off
06:46<@peter1138>yes
06:46<Pawz>I'm sad I can't get 32bpp vehicles working with FIRS
06:46<@Yexo>opening and closing the newgrf window indeed reproduced it
06:53<@Terkhen>Pawz: why not?
06:54<Pawz>Terkhen: because I can't find a newGRF that enables FIRS cargos without overwriting the 32bpp vehicles
06:54<@Terkhen>oh, I see
06:55<@peter1138>old wagons new cargos?
06:55<Pawz>i'll give it a shot
06:58<Pawz>aha! that works.. for trains
06:59<Pawz>too bad there isn't another one for boats & trucks
07:02<Pawz>although... hmm this Refit RV one looks like it works
07:02<Pawz>cool
07:02<Pawz>:)
07:03<Pawz>took me half a week but I think I finally have a working 32bpp version that's reasonably playable
07:03<b_jonas>Pawz: next challenge: get extra zoom playable too
07:03<Pawz>It is :D
07:04<Pawz>That's what I'm working with at least
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07:04<@planetmaker>b_jonas: the real challenge is to get openttd playable with only 32bpp
07:04<Pawz>this looks incredible
07:04<Pawz>amusing I note that the vehicle windows are done in 8bpp
07:06<b_jonas>(or rotatable)
07:07<Pawz>rotatable isn't necessary
07:07<b_jonas>well, I'd settle with much less actually
07:07<b_jonas>better transparency options
07:08<b_jonas>namely: a way to hide smoke from power plants (preferably automatically done if you set industries to transparent),
07:09<b_jonas>a way to somehow indicate trees without them covering everything (perhaps show them as tree stumps),
07:10<b_jonas>a button on the transparency toolbar to hide fences around railway tracks (currently you need to turn "full detail" off),
07:10<b_jonas>etc
07:10<Pawz>I'd just prefer starting with 32bpp base set completely done :)
07:11<@peter1138>that'd be nice
07:12<b_jonas>as for the vehicle windows, assume the camera is attached to the vehicle so it's of worse quality than the normal view which uses real TV cameras
07:12<Pawz>heh it actually doesn't look bad
07:12<Pawz>since it's at the standard zoom
07:13<Pawz>hmm lol how do you tell a whole group of like 15 busses that they need to maintain themselves a little more often than once every 150 days
07:15<appe>appe wants ipad compatible openttd, puh-leaze
07:15<b_jonas>Pawz: sell all, recreate them with clone?
07:15<Pawz>hmm was hoping there was something like shared orders
07:15<Pawz>I guess I'll just insert a shared go to depot order
07:16<b_jonas>that works too
07:18<b_jonas>I should figure out how to best optimize the depots of my trains
07:18<Pawz>I'm tempted to pack this entire openTTD folder up into a zip and post it on the forum
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>that's legally questional
07:20<Pawz>is it?
07:20<__ln__>it is.
07:20<@Yexo>there are several tar files for 32bpp (ez) that have no license file
07:20<@Yexo>which in effect means you're not allowed to redistribute them
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07:21<norbert79>Yexo: Unless approval from original creator
07:21<Pawz>well I'm not using any ez
07:21<Pawz>tar files
07:21<Pawz>what ez tar files? heh
07:21<Pawz>are there more??
07:21<@Yexo>more than what?
07:21<@Yexo>did you look in jupix repository?
07:21<norbert79>Pawz: You can only distribute material, for which you have the license included or got written approval from original creator.
07:22<norbert79>Pawz: Just saying in general
07:22<@planetmaker>Pawz: posting sprites you have no permission to distribute, especially in our forums will not make you friends and you'll find that file or link thereto removed pretty quickly
07:23<Pawz>*shrug* Just wanting to help people find all these graphics
07:23<Pawz>so rehosting a tar is bad?
07:23<@planetmaker>Pawz: that's not the problem
07:23<norbert79>Pawz: Well, what I do normally for myself is, that I download (almost) every possible NewGRF, and create one ZIP for my own use
07:23<@Yexo>Pawz: that depends on the license
07:23<@planetmaker>the problem is you *may not* distribute many of the sprites
07:23<Pawz>(like the nightly jupix build)
07:24<__ln__>however rehosting a tar does need a permission from the author (or license that permits it)
07:24<@planetmaker>or rather *must not*
07:24<@Yexo>A way to circumvent the problem is to create a list of links to the original locations instead of rehosting the file
07:24<@Yexo>that way if the original file is updated people will automatically download the updated file
07:24<@planetmaker>yes
07:25<Pawz>I see why you want to make all the 32bpp stuff available under the same license -_-
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose we already have like 10 "lists of links" to 32bpp files, that are all somewhat unmaintained and outdated
07:25<norbert79>Pawz: One license solves the problem. For example that's why I prefer Creative Commons, easy to modify the terms to your needs...
07:26<norbert79>Pawz: Or GPL...
07:26<Pawz>OpenTTD is GPL right?
07:26<norbert79>Pawz: The engine yes
07:27<norbert79>Pawz: So is Duke Nukem 3D, yet the GRP doesn't comes with it
07:27<norbert79>Pawz: and Doom 3 by now afaik
07:27<norbert79>Pawz: Seperate the engine from the graphics/music, etc
07:27<@Yexo>Pawz: we're already discussing including the relevant 32bpp sprites in the ogfx+ projects. For that we'll only use sprites with a gpl license
07:28<@Yexo>creating a list of files we could use for that would be very useful
07:28<norbert79>Yexo: Easier to implement in OpenTTD, including forcing of releasing the source as well
07:29<norbert79>Pawz: Look at the problem like a Website. You can download Drupal, but to make it look well, you need to work on it, make changes, new graphics, etc...
07:29<@Yexo>norbert79: I don't get that. What is easier to implement in OpenTTD?
07:29<norbert79>Yexo: Using GPL... Sorry for the confusion
07:29<norbert79>Yexo: I am just focusing on many things at the same time... :)
07:29<@planetmaker>indeed, that might be a good work :-)
07:29<@Yexo>how can you "implement" "using GP" ?
07:30<@Yexo>sorry, I just don't get it at all
07:30<norbert79>Yexo: never mind, just void my last sentence...
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07:30<@planetmaker>Pawz: http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains and http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-rv are the projects
07:31<norbert79>planetmaker: Will these both be included in OpenGFX?
07:31<norbert79>planetmaker: later on...
07:31<@planetmaker>if you gather 32bpp gpl'ed (or cc-by) sprites and create an issue for them it will be helpful
07:31<@planetmaker>they're NewGRFs
07:31<norbert79>planetmaker: I mean in the base package...
07:31<@planetmaker>but they share the vehicles. As such sprites can be used for the base set, too
07:31<@Yexo>norbert79: no, they're separate projects. They do share the look and file with opengfx, but that's all
07:32<norbert79>Yexo: Well, it would be nice having them, since then you could just totally remove the need of using the original GRF-s
07:32<@planetmaker>err... you don't need any original grf, do you?
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07:33<@planetmaker>and there he goes ;-)
07:33<norbert79>planetmaker: With OpenGFX no, but these two add even more to the game, doesn't it?
07:33<norbert79>lol
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07:33<norbert79>ah, back already
07:33<@planetmaker>norbert79: they enhance the vehicles such that they are usable with all industry newgrfs
07:34<Pawz>closed the wrong window :P
07:34<@Yexo>yes, ogfx-trains and ogfx-rv add more cargo support and refitability to the original vehicles
07:34<@planetmaker>and add a bit extra sugar here and there
07:34<norbert79>planetmaker: But ECS and FIRS do that already, don't they?
07:34<@Yexo>that part can never be included in the baseset
07:34<Pawz>so how is that related to 32bpp?
07:34<@planetmaker>norbert79: they are industries. they don't change *any* vehicle
07:34<@Yexo>not directly. But your original problem was finding a vehicle set that works with 32bpp sprites
07:34<norbert79>planetmaker: No, but still there is a possibility to refit, right?
07:34<@planetmaker>using firs w/o a vehicle newgrf will screw your game. same with ecs
07:34<@Yexo>we're trying to create one :)
07:35<@planetmaker>norbert79: no. They don't change any vehicle
07:35<Pawz>ah i see
07:35<Pawz>although 2 grfs work already :)
07:35<norbert79>planetmaker: Hmm... Are you sure on that (more like a rethorical question)... I remember different...
07:35<@Yexo>those grfs are basically much better versions of "old wagons new cargoes"
07:35<Pawz>'old wagons new cargos' and 'refit default rvs'
07:36<norbert79>planetmaker: I played ECS, and I can remember on changing trains, yet I am not sure on vehicles, that's true
07:36<@planetmaker>norbert79: you must have used train and rv grfs.
07:36<@planetmaker>or you would only be able to transport the default cargos
07:36<norbert79>planetmaker: Probably, wasn't playing in single
07:37<Pawz>aha! opengfx + trains works with 32bpps
07:38<Pawz>why didn't you say so in the first place? lol
07:38<@planetmaker>I didn't know :-)
07:38<Pawz>oh wait
07:38<Pawz>it doesn't change the bus
07:38<Pawz>dangit
07:38<@planetmaker>well. +trains only changes rail vehicles
07:38<Pawz>the cargo trucks are 8bpp
07:38<Pawz>yeah i got both
07:39<Pawz>ok, so you're looking for gpl / similar 32bpp graphic sets
07:40<Pawz>so you can include 'em by default in the +trains and rv's set?
07:40<@planetmaker>Pawz: yes, we need the 32bpp sprites which correspond to the rail and road vehicles as found in ogfx+trains and ogx+rv
07:40<@Yexo>exactly :)
07:40<@planetmaker>which would mostly be like the vehicles found in the base set
07:41<norbert79>planetmaker: Any specific palette needs for creating 32bpp sprites?
07:41<@planetmaker>dunno
07:41<@Yexo>norbert79: no, it's 32bpp, not paletted images
07:41<@planetmaker>I'm not sure how CC and 2CC is handled
07:41<@Yexo>you only need a mask file with the default palette for the company colours
07:41<norbert79>Yexo: I know, but some colours might be still have some specific needs, or does 32bpp uses alpha channels?
07:41<@planetmaker>that'll need some specific colours
07:41<@planetmaker>ah
07:42<norbert79>Yexo: That's already a palette need in my definiton
07:42<norbert79>:)
07:42<@Yexo>afaik 32bpp uses the alpha channels
07:42<PeanutHorst>...
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>afair 32bpp uses an overlay for company colours
07:42<PeanutHorst>daaaaaaaaaamn
07:42<PeanutHorst>i just set up a vactrain line
07:42<PeanutHorst>daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn.
07:42<norbert79>Yexo: Ok, so alpha channels then... Does this includes transparency, like PNG images use?
07:42<@Yexo>I think so
07:42<PeanutHorst>norbert79: alpha IS transparency. so yes.
07:42<norbert79>PeanutHorst: Not always...
07:43<@peter1138>hmm, weird, i didn't know that openttd "manually" drew shadows for small text of town names
07:43<norbert79>PeanutHorst: have seen alpha's being handled only for 'transparency", but opacity handling lacked
07:43<@Yexo>norbert79: see http://wiki.openttd.org/SpriteLoader
07:43<norbert79>Yexo: Cheers
07:43<PeanutHorst>norbert79: yes, that's 1-bit alpha
07:43<PeanutHorst>also called bit mask
07:43<norbert79>PeanutHorst: I know them, thank you...
07:44<PeanutHorst>if it's 8-bit alpha, you're representing opacity, so in the context of 32bpp (8bpp of RGB + 8bpp alpha) it /is/ transparency
07:45<norbert79>PeanutHorst: Ok, let me put this different: does 32bpp able make difference for one pixel if it's fully transparent or not, or is it only able to understand if a pixel is used at one point or not
07:45<norbert79>PeanutHorst: I am asking if I have to consider the usagae and avoid specific colours
07:46<norbert79>PeanutHorst: or the game is able to handle it like PNG files
07:47<@peter1138>basically we cheated
07:47<@peter1138>there's two images
07:47<@peter1138>one is fully 32bpp with 8bit alpha etc
07:47<PeanutHorst>ah. well, I haven't got into making NewGRFs yet, so i'd say err to the side of caution until a dev tells you otherwise
07:47<@peter1138>the other contains an 8bpp image containing colours to be remapped
07:48<norbert79>peter1138: I see
07:48<@peter1138>so you can use any colour in the 32bpp part
07:48<norbert79>so basically for 8bit the palette (I guess Windows based) must stay
07:48<@peter1138>you're restricted to the original 8bpp palette for any remapped part, which is probably fine for normal-size sprites
07:48<norbert79>Understood
07:49<@peter1138>of course, getting an image editor that supports paletted and nonpaletted layers might be tricky :)
07:50<norbert79>GIMP
07:50<norbert79>oh, wait
07:50<norbert79>no
07:50<norbert79>well, first the image is being crerated, then I simply converti it back to RGB
07:50<norbert79>simple
07:50<norbert79>after I applied the palette
07:51<norbert79>not really a big deal
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07:57<norbert79>peter1138: So if I understand you correctly such images are possible with generic image editing with 32bpp
07:57<norbert79>http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/7899/23587086.png
07:57<norbert79>(white is transparency)
07:57<norbert79>Basically an image with fully transparent and opacity
07:58<norbert79>(Example usage: simulating brake rubber burns on airports, using as design element)
07:59<norbert79>(Why 1? Becuase this was ONE example :)) )
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08:03<Kogut>"Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) reported a data breach involving personally identifiable and protected health information (PII/PHI) impacting an estimated 4.9 million military clinic and hospital patients."
08:03<Kogut>(data) "may include Social Security numbers, addresses and phone numbers, and some personal health data such as clinical notes, laboratory tests and prescriptions."
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>hm... assume i use ply in the generate script, does that clash with the parsetab file from nmlc?
08:03<Kogut>*The risk of harm to patients is judged to be low despite the data elements involved since retrieving the data on the tapes would require knowledge of and access to specific hardware and software and knowledge of the system and data structure.*
08:04<norbert79>Kogut: The US Army?
08:04<Kogut>yes
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>Kogut: aka "we trust in security by obfuscation"?
08:04<norbert79>Kogut: If yes, they release many standards of their own, including sometimes system specific things, and it also seems, that the human side isn't also well trained.
08:05<Kogut>http://www.tricare.mil/mybenefit/Download/Forms/DataBreach_PublicStatement.pdf
08:05<norbert79>Kogut: There are the ARTEP, FM's, etc, many different releases availlable
08:05<norbert79>Kogut: it's not that impossible to do
08:05<norbert79>Kogut: if one spends enough time understanding the structure, and how they work, it can be done within months/weeks
08:06<Kogut>and bonus "The unfortunate event happened last month when the data was stolen from the car of a SAIC employee in San Antonio."
08:07<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: by default yes, but you can change the name of parsetab.py in your code
08:07<norbert79>Kogut: Well, generals and admirals won't be happy...
08:07<norbert79>Kogut: I think full disk encryption is in effect at the army too
08:07<norbert79>Kogut: am suprised it was still to be accessed
08:07<Kogut>"personal health data such as clinical notes, laboratory tests and prescriptions" <- I can imagine use of things like "general A is deadly allergic to foo food"
08:09<Kogut>@Yexo - is it possible to group AIObject::DoCommand in way "do all or nothing"?
08:09<@Yexo>no
08:09<@Yexo>you could execute all of them is testmode, if all succeed execute all
08:12<Kogut>Maybe it will be better create new command code, CMD_BUILD_RAIL_WAYPOINT_RECTANGLE
08:13<@Yexo>why? CmdBUildRailWaypoint can already build a multi-tile waypoint
08:14<Kogut>Oh, now I see it. Thanks.
08:15<Kogut>is it OK to use EnforcePrecondition in a loop?
08:15<Kogut>@Yexo ^
08:15<@Yexo>could be, but most likely it can be used outisde it too
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08:17<@Yexo>Kogut: just remove the "@pre GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW || GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NW_SE" precondition for the rectangle function
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08:18<Kogut>why?
08:19<Kogut>it is still required to check tiles - all tiles in this case
08:19<@Yexo>to avoid the "precondition in a loop" problem
08:19<Kogut>so I will do it in a loop
08:19<@Yexo>and the cmd will already check all tiles
08:19<@Yexo>no need to duplicate that check
08:19<Kogut>OK
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08:28<Kogut>width_between_tile_and_tile2 = abs(GetTileX(tile), GetTileX(tile2)) <- is it correct
08:29<@Yexo>add 1 to that
08:29<@Yexo>abs(5, 5) == 0
08:30<@Yexo>and the comma in the middle should be a minus
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08:33<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/oldshadow.png
08:33<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/newshadow.png
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08:33<@Yexo>newshadow looks a lot better
08:35<norbert79>aye, but I would use 60% of transparency maximally... it looks way to focused
08:35<norbert79>less 'strong' would look nicer
08:35<@planetmaker>the new one is much clearer
08:35<@planetmaker>much less blurred
08:36<@planetmaker>in comparison the old one looks like badly jpg-compressed ;-)
08:36<norbert79>looks a bit overused to me... I wouldn't set a shadow under each font, only for those, where focus is needed
08:36<@peter1138>norbert79, ttd's *always* had that shadow
08:37<norbert79>never really seen it... :)
08:37<@peter1138>it's only not there for black text
08:37<norbert79>maybe that's why it disturbs me a bit, because of neater resolution on the fonts :)
08:37<@peter1138>(oh, and it's only there on the middle-size text)
08:40<norbert79>planetmaker: Possible using different shadow colour?
08:41<norbert79>planetmaker: darker orange would look better...
08:41<@planetmaker>don't ask me, please
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08:41<norbert79>planetmaker: Sorry...
08:42<@peter1138>dark orange shadow?
08:42<norbert79>peter1138: Moment
08:43<@peter1138>i'm not going to change any text colours, heh
08:47<norbert79>peter1138: http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/4326/text30041.png
08:47<norbert79>First: black shadow
08:47<@peter1138>on the title? lol
08:48<norbert79>It was just a demonstration
08:48<@peter1138>i'm not doing anything with the title
08:48<@Yexo>the title are just sprites anyway, not "text"
08:48<norbert79>Not the title, it's basically a demo of what I was thinking of
08:48<norbert79>using not the black as shadow
08:49<norbert79>Instead of 000000 I was using E9C030
08:50<norbert79>Looks better for orange coloured text
08:50<@peter1138>heh
08:50<@peter1138>well, colour remaps still use palette entries
08:50<norbert79>Even the 8bit palette has some nice colours... :)
08:50<norbert79>not just black ;-)
08:51<norbert79>unless the same shadow colour would be used everywhere
08:51<@peter1138>it is, yes
08:52<norbert79>Dang
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09:48<Timur>Hello
09:48<@planetmaker>hello
09:49<Timur>I'm having some trouble with my town growth, and was wondering if someone could provide insight into why there's no growth.
09:50<@planetmaker>switched off maybe?
09:50<@Terkhen>we need more info :P
09:50<Timur>I guessed so :P 2sec, I'll list it.
09:50<@planetmaker>it = provide savegame link ;-)
09:51<Timur>Ah, ok. Where can I upload it?
09:53<michi_cc>peter1138: Looks a lot better, commit it :)
09:54<@planetmaker>dunno... whereever one can upload stuff
09:55<@planetmaker>make sure that there are free roads near the town, so that it can expand
09:55<Timur>http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZXNLN1CK
09:55<Timur>There's my save.
09:55<@planetmaker>a town circled by rail usually has a very hard time to grow
09:55<Kogut>why there's no growth. - you modified seed tile, under town name, right?
09:55<Timur>The town only has rail on one side, the other three are free, and premade roads for growth.
09:56<@planetmaker>Kogut, town centre +- 2 tiles are searched for a road piece to start the search for growth from
09:56<Timur>I have no idea what you guys are talking about :P
09:57<Kogut>anyway, large station in central part can kill towngrowth
09:57<@planetmaker>the road piece under the town name
09:57<@planetmaker>in the centre of the town
09:57<Kogut>and it easier to ask about single tile
09:58<@planetmaker>it's even easier to say "towns don't grow" ;-)
09:59<@planetmaker>hmpf... my openttd here lacks lzma. Which sucks
09:59<Timur>Have anyone checked out my save?
09:59<@planetmaker>seems I can't load it right now for reasons which are not your fault
10:00<Timur>I'm using OTTD 1.1.2 if it's any help.
10:00<@planetmaker>well. did you check the town growth setting?
10:01<@planetmaker>how long did you look / wait to observe growth?
10:01<@planetmaker>How well is the town serviced / how many stations within its vicinity?
10:01<@planetmaker>did you change either date or newgrfs?
10:01<@planetmaker>do you use the uk houses and industry grf?
10:02<Timur>I started in 1976,and I'm in 2005 now.
10:02<@Yexo>Timur: see http://wiki.openttd.org/Towns#Town_Growth
10:02<Timur>I use original everything :P
10:02<Timur>Only names are different
10:02<@Yexo>building 5 stations instead of only 1 helps town growth
10:02<Timur>I've read the wiki.
10:03<Timur>The town has been receving steady passangers/water/food for alteast 10-20 years.
10:04<PeanutHorst>Yexo: do they need to be actual seperate stations for that?
10:04<Kogut>on my trunk openttd city is growing
10:04<@Yexo>PeanutHorst: yes
10:04<PeanutHorst>Yexo: welp, i'm doomed
10:04<@peter1138>michi_cc, http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/fancyshadow.diff < another patch to be forgotten in the mists of time :p
10:04<Timur>Its max size has been 3000, but then it decreases, and swings between 2000 and 3000.
10:05<@planetmaker>peter1138, then go for it...
10:05<michi_cc>peter1138: Does it really need a setting? Just enable it unconditionally...
10:05<@planetmaker>uh, setting?
10:05<@peter1138>praps :p
10:06<@planetmaker>yeah. fancy stuff should be default :-)
10:06<@planetmaker>and then a setting like "ugly fonts"
10:06<@planetmaker>(i.e. I'm with michi, no setting needed)
10:06<Kogut>@Timur - I added 5 serviced bus stations in city
10:07<@peter1138>k
10:07<Timur>Kogut: Individual stations?
10:08<Kogut>@Timur - yes
10:08<Timur>Also, does it grow bigger?
10:08<Kogut>3,133
10:08<Kogut>3,200
10:08<@planetmaker>that's probably one house difference :-)
10:09<Kogut>3,300
10:09<Kogut>@planetmaker "Its max size has been 3000, but then it decreases, and swings between 2000 and 3000."
10:09<@Belugas>hello
10:09<Kogut>and 3,500
10:09<Kogut>hi
10:10<@planetmaker>salut Belugas
10:10<Timur>Sweet, in other older games I've managed to get a town up to 16k, and was confused to why this one wouldn't grow.
10:11<@planetmaker>Timur, make it a challange, grow it to one million ;-)
10:11<PeanutHorst>woot, profit of £2,510,000 last year in openttd, i'm on the gravy maglev now :D
10:11<Kogut>4,100
10:11<Kogut>4,200 ande openttd is compiled
10:12<Timur>Wow, I just added 4 stations, with a total of 5 in the town, and its grown to almost 3000 now :D
10:12<Timur>Thanks guys!
10:13<@planetmaker>http://wiki.openttdcoop.org/PublicServer:Archive_-_Games_131_-_140#gameid_140 ;-)
10:13<Timur>@planetmaker: Is it possible to get a million sized city?
10:13<Kogut>@Timur - drop & load station are rather poor idea
10:13<Timur>Whats that?
10:13<@planetmaker>download and look yourself ;-)
10:13<Timur>hehe
10:13<@planetmaker>it's a savegame
10:13<V453000>he :)
10:13<Kogut>Your train are loading and unloading cargo on the same station
10:14<Timur>Do i have that on any stations? I usually build from raw product -> industry
10:14<Kogut>it is inefficient and can result in a deadlock
10:14<Kogut>see station near food factory
10:15<V453000>anything can result in a deadlock if you put it that way :)
10:15<@planetmaker>V453000, a one-way circle has a hard time to dead-lock ;-)
10:15<Kogut>it is possible to have higher ratings with more full load trains
10:15<Kogut>it is funny how AI can manage to produce deadlock
10:16<Timur>I thought all my trains were "Stay untill fully loaded" ?
10:16<Kogut>yes, but you can add more to have higher station rating
10:16<Kogut>what will result in deadlock with your design
10:16<Timur>I have no idea what that is.
10:16<Kogut>deadlock?
10:16<Timur>No, station rating
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10:16<Timur>Isn
10:17<Timur>Isn't deadlock just a traffic jam with the front trains stopped?
10:17<Kogut>see station window and switch to rating (button on the bottom of the window)
10:17<Kogut>@deadlock - yes
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>Timur: imagine a station with 3 platforms, 2 platforms are filled with loading food, only one is available for dropping off grain. now imagine a 3rd food train occupying that 3rd platform, no grain can ever be delivered anymore
10:17<Kogut>better station rating -> more cargo -> more fun
10:18<Timur>That little red/green bar?
10:19<Kogut>population reached 5,600
10:19<V453000>pm: I almost figured :P
10:19<Timur>My foodfactory staion is based on perpetual delivery, so that there's almost always one train ready to go.
10:19<Timur>My population is still just under 3k
10:20<Kogut>well, create 5 bus stations add service (I use 20 busses) and fast forward
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10:20<Kogut>5,700 in 2012
10:20<Timur>20 busses? I have 3 :P
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>Timur: you can solve this situation with waypoints like here: http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2024.%20Jan%201951.png ore trains take the right waypoint (from their view), and can reach all 3 platforms, steel trains take the left waypoint and can only reach two platforms
10:21<norbert79>Timur: For one city of 3 stations I always start 4 buses, with a delay to each station, the forth one is going always around
10:21<@planetmaker>V453000, see, almost. Now you know :-P
10:21*planetmaker hugs V453000
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>=> there can never be all 3 platforms occupied with steel trains
10:21<norbert79>Timur: Sometimes I assign busses zones, where they can work
10:23<Timur>@Eddi: Do you have one station for unloading and one for loading?
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>Timur: in this picture, no. it's a combined station, but with two separate entrances
10:23<Timur>Thats what i meant :P
10:25<Kogut>@Timur and 6,000 in 2014
10:25<Timur>I've played OTTD for a while, but my building skills are poor :P
10:25<Timur>I'm at 2641 in 2007
10:26<Timur>which is down 200 for the last year
10:26<PeanutHorst>ARGH
10:26<PeanutHorst>why is there such a thing as an "impossible track combination" when you're laying diagonal?
10:26<V453000>:P
10:26<PeanutHorst>as an engineering feat, it's quite possible and rather efficient
10:27<norbert79>Timur: Play more online games when OTTD-ing, you can learn a few tricks from other players too
10:27<Timur>I usually just play with friends or alone, mostly just for fun and while watching movies.
10:27<@planetmaker>PeanutHorst, on slopes
10:30<norbert79>Timur: Not much to learn from that then... :)))
10:30<Timur>Hehe, yes, I know.
10:31<norbert79>Timur: http://norbert79.deviantart.com/gallery/26407951 - I know, I might have overdone this, but still might be worth taking a look... Haven't play this scenario for a long time though :(
10:32<Timur>Thats a bit out of my league :P
10:32<Kogut>@Timur - and I plan to make in next two years AI that will be able to create your network. Sometimes. On easy settings. And then it will be one the best available.
10:32<PeanutHorst>planetmaker: no, that's "land sloped in wrong direction"
10:32<norbert79>Kogut: Well, I am curious, so keep it up... :)
10:32<PeanutHorst>i'm talking about putting ... say... a maglev and a conventional rail side-by-side
10:33<Timur>@Kogut, in 2008 my town has decreased a further 100, down to 2500
10:33<norbert79>Timur: Interest rates... Check acceptance ratings
10:33<Timur>Where do i check that?
10:33<norbert79>Timur: Click one station, and check your ratings
10:34<Timur>Just over 50% in my main town.
10:34<norbert79>Such a pity noone broadcasts any games, anywhere... :)
10:35<Kogut>Well, there is possibility to enter as spectator into multilayer game
10:35<norbert79>Kogut: Sure, but many tend just playing for themselves
10:36<norbert79>Kogut: And opening a multiplayer game with maximum 1 player allowed isn't very well solved either :)
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>hm... query tool doesn't mention railtype
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>only speed limit
10:41<norbert79>Love today's XKCD comic :)
10:41<norbert79>Well done
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>not sure i get it...
10:43<norbert79>The ball is like the hourglass in Windows
10:43<norbert79>it looks like a flame if you look long enough on it
10:43<norbert79>Since Steve Jobs passed away...
10:44<Sacro>wtf
10:44<Sacro>xkcd on a thursday
10:44<norbert79>Sacro: Why not? :)
10:45<Sacro>norbert79: quite
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10:45<Timur>I guess its a special one, since Jobs passed.
10:45<norbert79>Well, was expected... He resigned, his book was out...
10:46<Timur>Yes, but there was hoping.
10:46<norbert79>Sure
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>i'd not have said hourglass, but rather the thingy that tells you youtube videos are buffering...
10:46<norbert79>but since he got thinner with every year it started being obvious... :(
10:46<Eddi|zuHause>but where do you see a flame?
10:46<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: never mind... Anyway, the thingy in youtube are circles in a circle form
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>yes, round and turning...
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>hm... is this my fault or NuTrack's fault? ICE1 goes on very high speed rail and very low speed rail, but not on medium speed rail
10:48<@planetmaker>well, it's the "busy, please wait" cursor
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>ICE1 with 14 middle wagons has 910 capacity and is 12.7 tiles long
10:50<Timur>@Kogut: My town is still not growing as much as yours. It peaked at 3200, and now in 2010 its at 2900
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>Timur: then your bus service is not good enough
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>Timur: need to visit the stations more often
10:51<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Does the track for your ICE go near Enschede? ;-)
10:51<Timur>I've got 5 stations in the city, and busses coming and going the entire time
10:51<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: what would my ICE do in the netherlands?
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10:52<Eddi|zuHause>(unless you meant Eschede)
10:52<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Oops, yes, typo
10:52<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Because that would explain why it goes that slow :)
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: i didn't say it goes slow
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10:53<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Lovely, I also misread you... I think I need a break for today...
10:53<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Had to re-read
10:54<norbert79>See you all
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10:59<Timur>Is there somewhere I can check out some very good networks, yet simple enought so that I can replicate it.
11:00<@planetmaker>good or simple? ;-)
11:01<Timur>Better than the crap i have :P
11:03<@planetmaker>I can only offer good and not simple :-)
11:03<@planetmaker>just from the link I posted earlier.
11:03<@planetmaker>it has over 200 savegames
11:04*Terkhen never *really* needed anything besides three way junctions and once a simple four way junction
11:04<@planetmaker>4-way tend to get very bulky and complicated :-)
11:04<@planetmaker>often two 3-way are easier :-)
11:04<@Terkhen>yes, it is best to avoid them
11:04<@Terkhen>it was on a small map IIRC
11:04<@Terkhen>therefore the 4 way junction was small and it didn't work anyways
11:05<@planetmaker>especially when talking about tracks with LL_RR or more per direction :-)
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>i can only offer aesthetic, neither good nor simple
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11:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: should we scrape 1lu of the ICE3 head, so a full ICE3 fits on exactly 6 tiles?
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>6 tiles = 6*32 = 196m, ICE3 length = 200m
11:12<Timur>Yay! My town just reached 4k :)
11:12<@peter1138>m?
11:13<@peter1138>miles ;)
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>meters, obviously
11:13<@peter1138>6*32 is 192, btw
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>whatever
11:13<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, that might be an idea
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11:15<Eddi|zuHause>don't know whether it is achievable to fit a full ICE1 in 12 tiles, it's 10lu longer
11:15<Eddi|zuHause>but 12 tiles sounds like a more sensible measure than 13 tiles
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>we need engines that are both dualheaded and articulated... providing the ICE1 as full articulated train is crazy
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11:23<Eddi|zuHause>Timur: this was my latest network: http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%205.%20Nov%201988.png (12MB)
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11:25<supermop>good morning
11:27<Timur>Well, I'm off. Thanks for the help guys.
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11:37<b_jonas>I need three-way junctions, but I find it difficult to make them, because I have space constraints
11:37<b_jonas>because I've generated the map with lots of industries and towns, everything is cramped
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11:43<@peter1138>heh, google searches for "cheats" instead of "cets"
11:44<@peter1138>but it doesn't tell you its done the substitution
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11:58<@Yexo>peter1138: it doesn't do that for me. I get "Child exploitation tracking system" and "copmuting and educational technology services" as results 1 and 2
11:58*Prof_Frink copmutes Yexo
11:59<@peter1138>oh
11:59<@peter1138>oh "cets openttd"
12:00<@planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/LATEST/ <-- peter1138
12:01<@Yexo>peter1138: at the bottom of the search results: "Tip: These results include the word "cheats". Show results that include only "cets"."
12:01<@planetmaker>bye for today
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12:04<@peter1138>is it normally at the bottom now?
12:04<@peter1138>it used to be at the top
12:04<@peter1138>i.e. Did you mean: openttd
12:04<@peter1138>which is still there if you misspell something. hmm.
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>it says "did you mean: cheats" at the top for me
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>"Centre for European and Transition Studies - University of Latvia"
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12:31<@peter1138>oh, it's you
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12:55<Kogut>@Yexo - I finished my noai API patch, can you look at http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44249&p=974385#p974385 ?
12:56<@Yexo>- * @param keep_rail Whether to keep the rail after removal. <- why do you remove that line?
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12:56<@Yexo>the documentation of BuildRailWaypointTileRectangle is partly incomplete and partly wrong
12:56<@Yexo>* @pre IsRailTile(tile). <- that shouldn't be there
12:56<@Yexo>there should be something about requiring tile and tile2 to be in a straight line
12:56<@Yexo>ie either TileX(tile)==TileX(tile2) or TileY(tile)==TileY(tile)
12:57<@Yexo>you're using spaces instead of tabs for alignment
12:57<Kogut>"- * @param keep_rail Whether to keep the rail after removal. <- why do you remove that line?" - it is fault of stupid diff generator
12:57<@Yexo>we have a nice template "swap" for swapping variables
12:57<Kogut>"you're using spaces instead of tabs for alignment" - it is fault of forum
12:57<@Yexo>just call "swap(tile, tile2);" instead of doing it yourself
12:57<Kogut>the documentation of BuildRailWaypointTileRectangle is partly incomplete and partly wrong <- I will fix it
12:58<@Yexo>if that's the case, please attach a diff isntead of including it in your forum post
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12:58<@Yexo>your check for swapping is too complicated
12:59<@Yexo>the line "if (tile > tile2) swap(tile, tile2);" is enough
12:59<@Yexo>you need to make sure that both width and height are < 15 before calling DoCommand
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13:06<Kogut>should be fixed (except IsRailTile - it is again fault of stupid diff generator).
13:06<Kogut>I will check new code with testAI and repost patch
13:06<Kogut>@Yexo "5>..\src\ai\api\ai_rail.cpp(219) : error C3861: 'swap': identifier not found"
13:07<@Yexo>add #include "../../core/math_func.hpp" at the top
13:08<Kogut>Swap is working
13:08<Kogut>is it different function?
13:08<Kogut>btw thanks for help
13:22<Kogut>@Yexo also with "#include "../../core/math_func.hpp"" compiling resulted in 5>..\src\ai\api\ai_rail.cpp(220) : error C3861: 'swap': identifier not found
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13:24<@Yexo>the function in the stl is called "swap". OpenTTD has it's own version called "Swap"
13:24<Wolf01>evenjobs
13:26<Kogut>Swap changed behaviour of this function, with swap and mentioned include I am unable to compile
13:27<@Yexo>swap is from the stl, you'd have to include <algorithm> I think
13:27<@Yexo>math_func.hpp is already (indirectly) included or Swap wouldn't work either
13:29<Kogut>and with my idiotic swap variable everything is working
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r23007 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: welsh - 52 changes by kazzie
13:46<Kogut>@Yexo tile > tile2 is not the same as AIMap::GetTileY(tile)-AIMap::GetTileY(tile2)>0 || AIMap::GetTileX(tile)-AIMap::GetTileX(tile2>0)
13:47<@Yexo>actually it is (as long as tile and tile2 are in a straight line)
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14:01<@peter1138>heh, whatever happened to the openttdcoop ts server?
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14:05<TWerkhoven>ts?
14:06<@Yexo>teamspeak?
14:06<TWerkhoven>ah
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14:26<Kogut>@Yexo - there is new version ( http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44249&p=974404#p974404 )
14:26<Kogut>ooops, wrong file
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14:30<Kogut>@Yexo - now I uploaded correct file
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14:31<@Yexo>EnforcePrecondition(false, abs(AIMap::GetTileX(tile)-AIMap::GetTileX(tile2)) < 15); <- space too much before "abs" and there have to be spaces around the minus
14:32<@Yexo>and I'm missing a precondition "TileX(tile) == TileX(tile2) || TileY(tile) == TileY(tile2)"
14:33<@Yexo>* @pre GetRailTracks(tile_in_rectangle) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW || GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NW_SE. <_ if you document it as @pre, it should give a PreconditoinError when it fails
14:34<@Yexo>you don't check for it in the function, so don't document it as @pre
14:34<Kogut>OK
14:34<@Yexo>perhaps use @note or just put it in the description
14:34<@Yexo>* @exception AIError::ERR_FLAT_LAND_REQUIRED <- I don't think you can actually get that error
14:34<Kogut>and I add abs(AIMap::GetTileY(tile) - AIMap::GetTileY(tile2)) < 15) as @pre
14:34<@Yexo>you should check which errors you can get and mention those
14:34<Kogut>OK
14:35<@Yexo>there is still stray documentation changes for RemoveRailWaypointTileRectangle
14:37<Kogut>So I should describe possible errors using @exception
14:37<Rubidium>isn't it "can be built"?
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15:09<Eddi|zuHause>i have a feeling startup is faster in versions before the startup gui was introduced
15:10<@Alberth>the magic of a progress bar :)
15:16<Rubidium>nah, the cost of progress
15:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r23008 /trunk/src/spriteloader/png.cpp: -Add: Palette detection and conversion for the M part of 32bpp sprites.
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.lolroflmao.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/nofriends.png
15:28<Rubidium>:D
15:29<Kogut>@Yexo - OK, now it should be better ( http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44249&p=974404#p974404 )
15:31<Rubidium>+ * @param tile One corner of the rectangle to clear.
15:31<Rubidium>I hope you're not clearing them
15:31<Rubidium>+ * @pre width or rectangle == 1 || height of rectangle == 1
15:31<Rubidium>s/or/of/
15:32<Rubidium>then there's the inconsistency with ending lines of the documentation; always add a period
15:33<Kogut>clear -> "cover with waypoints" (?)
15:33<Rubidium>+ * @return Whether the rail waypoint(s) has been/can be build or not.
15:33<Rubidium>s/build/built/
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>how about a filter on the purchase list by model name?
15:34<Rubidium>Kogut: sounds okay
15:35<Rubidium>although I wonder whether it would, consistency wise, be better to mimic the station building API
15:35<Kogut>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44249&p=974404#p974404 <- reuploaded
15:35<Rubidium>i.e. northern tile and then building X "platforms"
15:36<Kogut>well, AFAIK it is supposed to mimic normal interface
15:37<Rubidium>and "normal" refers to what?
15:37<Kogut>used by humans
15:37<Kogut>Yexo said that it also should include limitations, like width == 1 || height == 1
15:38<Kogut>but I can change it
15:38<Rubidium>well... I'm just wondering
15:39<Rubidium>but the interface used by humans sets a begin point and then allows you to build N tiles perpendicular to the clicked tile
15:39<Rubidium>which would be more like selecting a tile and then saying it's N wide (has N "platforms")
15:41<Kogut>hm, maybe. I will ask Yexo
15:43<@Yexo>minicing the station interface sounds like a good idea
15:44<@Yexo>with the difference that the direction would be inferrred from the direction of the track
15:44<Kogut>OK
15:45<Kogut>so now we will have static bool BuildRailWaypointTileRectangle(TileIndex tile, int length, StationID waypoint_id);
15:45<Rubidium>s/length/width/
15:47<Kogut>maybe size?
15:49<@Yexo>size is too generic, it's really the width here, or num_platforms if you want to be really consistent with stations
15:49<@Yexo>but a waypoint doesn't really have "platforms"
15:50<Kogut>num_waypoints?
15:50<@Yexo>it are not differnet waypoints
15:50<@Yexo>it's one waypoint with multiple ??
15:51<@Yexo>what for stations would be platforms
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15:53<supermop_>hi
15:53<Kogut>num_gates (??)
15:53<Kogut>hi
15:53<@Yexo>ok for me
15:53<Kogut>@Yexo - num_parts
15:53<@Yexo>if(tile<tile2)Swap(tile, tile2); <- missing some spaces
15:54<@Yexo>and it's the wrong way around
15:55<@Yexo>it's more logical to make sure that tile < tile2, so the check should be the other way around
15:55<Kogut> if (tile < tile2) Swap(tile, tile2);
15:55<@Yexo>byte height = -(AIMap::GetTileY(tile2)-AIMap::GetTileY(tile))+1; <- also wrong
15:55<Kogut>is it space friendly?
15:55<@Yexo>the maximum difference can't fit in a byte
15:55<Kogut>anyway, now this will be deleted
15:56<@Yexo>it should be: int height = AIMap::GetTileY(tile2) - AIMap::GetTileY(tile) + 1;
15:56<Kogut>as num_parts / num_gates is introduced
15:56<@Yexo>Kogut: see http://wiki.openttd.org/Coding_style
15:56<Kogut>and I think that num_parts is better, there are newgrf waypoints without gates
15:57<@Yexo>why not make it "width" as rb suggested?
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15:57<Kogut>and anyway - is it doable to make BuildNewgrfWaypoint?
15:57<@Yexo>no
15:57<Kogut>there are width and height in CmdBuildRailWaypoint function
15:58<Kogut>and I prefer to avoid confusion
15:58<@Yexo>those are internal variables, you can rename those
15:58<Kogut>as width from ai may turn out to be height in CmdBuildRailWaypoint function
15:58<@Yexo>the parameter names are more important as they are visible in the documentation
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16:00<Kogut>is it ok to use int? I see uint32 everywhere
16:01<__ln__>how long have you felt you see uint32? do they follow you?
16:01<@Yexo>yes, int it ok
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16:05<Kogut>@__In__ It is coming!
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16:07<@Bjarni>GhostofKogut: 0x274EB831
16:07<__ln__>Bjarni!
16:07<@Bjarni>I see.... the uint32 are really following him :p
16:08<@Bjarni>yeah I'm back home again
16:08<@Bjarni>and I have a travel story to tell you guys
16:08<@Bjarni>involving trains
16:08*__ln__ prepares the popcorn
16:09<@Bjarni>I took a train from Hamburg towards Bremen
16:09<@Bjarni>during rush hour on a weekday
16:09<@Bjarni>it was packed
16:09<@Bjarni>and the locomotive broke down
16:09<@Bjarni>big time
16:09<@Bjarni>and blocked the westbound track between the two cities
16:09<@Bjarni>not good, specially not at a time like that
16:10<@Bjarni>we waited 10 minutes, then two repairguys showed up
16:10<@Bjarni>and fixed the locomotive in 15 minutes
16:10<@Bjarni>and the train could continue like nothing happened (just 25 minutes late)
16:11<@Bjarni>because of the magic of switching trains I ended up being 15 minutes late at my final destination :)
16:12<@Bjarni>I wonder how many places will send repaircrews to broken trains with such a short notice
16:12<@Bjarni>err
16:12<@Bjarni>*respondtime
16:12<__ln__>you seem to have developed a positive habit to visit germany on a regular basis
16:12<Sacro>Bjarni!
16:13<@Bjarni>Sacro!
16:13<@Bjarni>that wasn't fun
16:13<@Bjarni>Bjarni!
16:13<@Bjarni>not that much fun either
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: try that scenario again after there was 20cm of new snow that day :p
16:14<@Bjarni><__ln__> you seem to have developed a positive habit to visit germany on a regular basis <--- well... when you have stuff to do, you go where it's has to be done
16:14<GhostofKogut>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=44249&p=974404#p974404 <- YA version of patch
16:15<@Bjarni>I have yet to try a vacation in Germany
16:15<GhostofKogut>after this change code etc is really better
16:15<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: it's actually strange. The weather was awesome this time. Sunny and between 20 and 29°C
16:15<@Bjarni>no wind
16:15<@Bjarni>for two weeks
16:16<Sacro>@seen Bjarni
16:16<@DorpsGek>Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 5 seconds ago: <Bjarni> for two weeks
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>yep, was obscure weather :p
16:16<@Bjarni>and it turned bad and rainy on the day I left
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>but today the wind started
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>typical fall-storms
16:17<@Bjarni>btw the locomotive which broke was a BR 146 (I think)
16:18<@Bjarni>Metronome... that company is actually interesting
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>obviously new engines break down more often than old ones :p
16:18<@Bjarni>they drive those big trains between Bremen, Hamburg, Uelzen and so on
16:18<@Bjarni>yet I found brand new Desiro DMUs in Metronome livery
16:19<@Bjarni>that puzzled me
16:19<__ln__>metronom actually
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>that might have been the new S-Bahn Bremen
16:19<__ln__>http://www.trainslide.com/hoch_fotos/529ewd-bahnhof-lauenbrueck.jpg
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16:20<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause> that might have been the new S-Bahn Bremen <--- and they were parked in Soltau? I don't think so
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>Metronom also manages some branch lines
16:20<GhostofKogut>@Yexo - is it good moment to create a ticket for this patch?
16:21<@Bjarni>Metronom is partly owned by OHE, which is quite active in Soltau
16:21<@Bjarni>OHE = Ost Hannover Eisenbahn
16:22<b_jonas>I wonder how complicated it would be to have an UI to allow doing train depot operations (sell whole, sell part, buy wagons, buy engine, refit, leave depot) while the train is not yet in the depot, in which case it will go to depot and then perform those operations;
16:22<b_jonas>plus a way to repeat the same operations on multiple trains.
16:23<@Alberth>the UI is the simple part
16:23<@Bjarni>you mean kind of like a button on a train stating "goto depot and sell itself"?
16:23<@Alberth>the tricky part is the underlying command stuff
16:23<b_jonas>Bjarni: yes, but not just sell but also more complicated commands, like renew to this engine (possibly multiple engines), or remove a passenger car and add a mail car instead.
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>the only thing that is currently implemented is "stop in depot"
16:24<@Bjarni>I did something a bit like that for autoreplace
16:24<@Yexo>GhostofKogut: you might as wel keep updating your version in the forum
16:24<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: 'refit to x' also works
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>oh, yes
16:24<@Bjarni>some actions are automated once a vehicle enters a depot
16:24<@Yexo>instead of posting there you could have created a ticket when you started
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: that plays into the idea of shunting, etc.
16:24<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: actually "send to servicing" is also implemented I think
16:24<@Bjarni>but to link a specific train to custom orders like that.... tricky
16:25<b_jonas>Bjarni: NO NO, I don't want scheduled orders
16:25<@Bjarni>I know
16:25<b_jonas>only manual commands executed _once_
16:25<@Bjarni>but you give the commands, the game stores them and executes them once they enters a depot
16:26<b_jonas>Bjarni: yes, and also sends train to depot
16:26<@Bjarni>and those commands are linked to just one vehicle, not all vehicles of ID x
16:27<@Alberth>b_jonas: there have been several discussions, mostly in connection with groups, although you could consider them separate. See http://wiki.openttd.org/Requested_features/Reworked_groups for a collection to start
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Netz_der_metronom.svg
16:27<@Alberth>of course, groups make it more complicated
16:27<@Bjarni>I have been wondering about the remove mail wagon issue a few times
16:28<@Bjarni>there is a reason why I didn't "just write it" ;)
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16:29<b_jonas>I'd mostly such a feature this for renewing and for selling the whole vehicle
16:29<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: and as you can see Metronom doesn't send trains to Soltau. It's grayed out on that map, yet they were all parked there
16:30<b_jonas>(obviously this would not be restricted to trains, it would make sense for all type of vehicles)
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: the map is from 2007, so maybe something changed
16:30<@Bjarni>DB operated the passengers, OHE operated the freight trains
16:31<@Bjarni>but I read something about Desiros driving between Soltau and Buchholz from november
16:31<@Bjarni>I just thought it should be DB
16:32<@Bjarni>but the only text on them was "Niedersachen"
16:32-!-Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
16:35<@Bjarni>https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-hhNax-zExfU/Thti2LBE14I/AAAAAAAAAJw/2xKHBB1iczk/11.07.11%2B-%2B1 <--- just like that one except "ist am Zug" wasn't there
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landesnahverkehrsgesellschaft_Niedersachsen
16:35<@Bjarni>same yellow paint, the horse and letters were the same
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>the horse is the sign of Niedersachsen
16:36<@Bjarni>I know
16:36<@Bjarni>I have seen it plenty of times
16:36<@Bjarni>on flags and stuff
16:37<@Bjarni>it's on plenty of houses too
16:37<@Bjarni>normal houses
16:37<@Bjarni>they add horses
16:39<__ln__>i think Eddi's link from last night is relevant here: http://einestages.spiegel.de/hund-images/2011/10/04/7/6ce89a52343eb2666534cda7539fea72_image_document_large_featured_borderless.jpg
16:40<@Bjarni>haha
16:40<@Bjarni>good one
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>that's in the capital of mongolia :)
16:42<@Bjarni>red and blue
16:42<@Bjarni>Japan used to use blue instead of green
16:43<@Bjarni>they changed that, though it should still be possible to find blue trafficlights
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16:45*Bjarni just looked at pictures
16:45<@Bjarni>the train in question does infact say LNVG
16:45<@Bjarni>with small letters
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: since Metronom only rented the locomotives, they also carry the LNVG colours
16:46<appe>wordfeud?
16:49<Elukka>"The Applied Levitation SPM Maglev system is inter-operable with steel rail tracks and would permit maglev vehicles and conventional trains to operate at the same time on the same right of way. MAN in Germany also designed a maglev system that worked with conventional rails, but it was never fully developed."
16:49<Elukka>weird
16:50<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't sound that obscure...
16:51<@Bjarni>sounds reasonable to me
16:52<@Bjarni>it would even make trackplanning easier
16:52<@Bjarni>like in OTTD, a track could be maglev and electrified at the same time
16:52<@Bjarni>could solve some issues when moving from one system to another
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>that exists already
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>it's called "universal railtype" and is available in the fruit storage of your trust
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17:04<frosch123>night
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17:09<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause started talking about fruitcake and the channel died :p
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17:17<__ln__>Bjarni: start talking about history
17:21<@Bjarni>hehe
17:21<@Bjarni>that's actually tricky to honour such a request
17:23<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: do you watch the vehiclevars patch building?
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: that kinda became obsolete
17:23<Ammler>last working version was r22990
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17:24<Ammler>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/openttd-vehiclevars/testing/ERROR/ <-- error logs
17:24<Ammler>well, then it might make sense to remove the repo
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, can you do that for me?
17:25<Ammler>yep, I will
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17:42<b_jonas>wait, so oil refineries have invisible squares and you need to cover those squares to accept mail?
17:42<b_jonas>funny
17:42-!-KouDy [~KouDy@ip-94-112-27-44.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:43<b_jonas>so there's exactly one square in an oil rig that accepts mail, and exactly one that accepts passengers?
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>they're not invisible, just the rig is not fully covering these with graphics
17:45<b_jonas>and apparently oil rigs only have two squares that accept oil
17:48<b_jonas>apparently a power station also only has one square that accepts coal, and a saw mill has two squares accepting wood, but factories and steel mills accept cargo on all squares
17:48<b_jonas>all this for compatibility with ttdpatch
17:52-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>what has compatibility with ttdpatch to do with this?
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18:00<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: I presume that's why it works this way
18:00<b_jonas>you know, savegame compatibility
18:00<Wolf01>'night
18:00-!-Wolf01 [~wolf01@host64-51-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:00<Eddi|zuHause>it's a genuine game feature... has nothing to do with compatibility
18:01<Prof_Frink>b_jonas: Not ttdpatch. Not even TTD.
18:01<b_jonas>back when openttd was started, developpers tried to make it very similar to ttd
18:01<Prof_Frink>It's been like that since TT.
18:01<Prof_Frink>Back when openttd was started it *was* ttd.
18:01<b_jonas>it was a clone of ttd, yes
18:03<+glx>acceptance is exactly like in TTD
18:04<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: just because it was never changed, doesn't mean it is "for compatibility"
18:04<@Bjarni>I always found this feature quite annoying
18:05<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: make a GRF that changes it :)
18:05<@Bjarni>that would be annoying for me as well :p
18:05<b_jonas>wasn't the fact that power stations accept part of Passenger even declared a bug at some point?
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>plenty of people have declared plenty of things
18:06-!-TWerkhoven [~Turbulent@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:07<supermop_>people have to work at the power plant
18:07<@Bjarni>declarations by random people on the forum shouldn't be read as facts
18:07<b_jonas>no wait, that's my mistake
18:07<b_jonas>it was something different that was declared a bug
18:07<b_jonas>sorr
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18:40<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Ge_4-4_III_651.jpg
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18:41<Elukka>that center buffer looks almost like the classic HO couplers...
18:41<Elukka>at a glance, anyhow
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18:42<Eddi|zuHause>not like any i have ever seen
18:45<Elukka>hmm. it's the märklin coupler hooks it makes me think of
18:45<Elukka>remove the two upper prongs
18:47<Elukka>some older and cheaper locomotives came with (still do) with couplers that lack a loop
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>i think i once had one of those, that only had a "proper" coupler at the tender
18:52<Elukka>i'm shocked to find the old start set br 89 with coupler hooks actually has NEM sockets
18:56<@Bjarni>ahh the wonders of track maintenance
18:57<@Bjarni>there is something right outside with an idle diesel engine and it goes bum bum bum
18:57<@Bjarni>somewhat annoying
18:57<@Bjarni>I opened the window and the guys outside talked with each other and I could make out "it's too short" and stuff like that
18:57<@Bjarni>this might be a long night
18:57<Eddi|zuHause>"Guest to waiter: Hey, my coffee is cold"
18:58<@Bjarni>I can skip even trying to sleep in this noise
18:58<Eddi|zuHause>"waiter: well, if you want something warm, you should order a beer"
18:58<@Bjarni>hehe
18:58<@Bjarni>ohh... they started using a crane.. something happens
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18:58<@Bjarni>good
18:59<@Bjarni>the question is... for how long? :/
18:59<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause> "waiter: well, if you want something warm, you should order a beer" <--- I have relatives who ages ago headed beer on the stove
19:00<@Bjarni>but it wasn't beer like the kind you can buy today
19:00<Elukka>http://www.modellbau-scheilo.de/DrehscheibenGrube.CrashModellUndOrginal.1823.JPG
19:00<@Bjarni>and it was several decades ago
19:00<Elukka>that locomotive looks like it's giving you the finger
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: they have been depicted in asterix?
19:00<@Bjarni>lol
19:01<Elukka>http://www.modellbau-scheilo.de/HPschussBehand.JPG
19:01<Elukka>i very much want to know how he painted the tracks... i can't get anything half as neat
19:01<@Bjarni>oh good. A petrol powered rotary saw for cutting rails
19:02<@Bjarni><EddizuHause> Bjarni: they have been depicted in asterix? <--- no but I think it did take place like in the 1930's
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: so someone built a model of a real life train crash? :p
19:02<Elukka>yeah
19:03<Elukka>http://www.modellbau-scheilo.de/
19:03<Elukka>that's probably my favorite model railway i've seen
19:03<Elukka>only on the internet sadly
19:03<@Bjarni>in Denmark resistance didn't want the Germans to use the Danish trains. At night they sneaked into the roundhouses in Copenhagen and set the engines to drive
19:03<@Bjarni>all the turntables ended up like that and all the engines were trapped inside
19:03-!-JVassie [~James@2.30.129.177] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:04<@Bjarni>turned out to be efficient
19:04<Elukka>the tracks, ballast and lighting are the greatest mysteries to me, on that site
19:04<Elukka>the lighting looks so much like sunlight, it's probably one of the main factors why it looks so good
19:05<@Bjarni>photoshop :p
19:05-!-valhallasw [~valhallas@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:06<@Bjarni>oh a diesel once ended up in a turntable pit in Copenhagen
19:06<Elukka>photoshop won't do it
19:06<@Bjarni>somebody forgot to pull the mechanical brake before leaving and as the air went out of the brake system then.... you know :p
19:06<Elukka>you can fix up the white balance, but a photo in bad lighting still doesn't look good no matter how much you photoshop it
19:07<@Bjarni>I know
19:07<@Bjarni>I was joking
19:08<@Bjarni>those photos look good
19:08<Elukka>heh
19:08<Elukka>i've been considering daylight lamps but i dunno how much they'd do
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>"Freitag, der 7.Oktober 111"
19:12<@Bjarni>111
19:12<Eddi|zuHause>y2k bug!!!
19:12<b_jonas>where does it say that?
19:12<@Bjarni>damn timemachine fucked up again
19:13<Eddi|zuHause>on the page that Elukka posted
19:15<Eddi|zuHause>"three in an office and one works. what is this?"
19:16<Eddi|zuHause>"three public servants and one ventilator"
19:17<@Bjarni>I saw that ferry thing on Norwegian TV. People showed up on the harbours when they knew TV was coming (go figure)
19:17<Eddi|zuHause>what ferry thing?
19:17<@Bjarni>two girls were holding a big sign saying something like "we can't stay here all day. People would think we were public servants"
19:19<@Bjarni><EddizuHause> what ferry thing? <--- http://www.nrk.no/hurtigruten/
19:19-!-perk11 [~perk11@188.255.47.217] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org]
19:19<@Bjarni>understanding Norwegian helps a bit :p
19:19<z-MaTRiX>:)
19:19<z-MaTRiX>clear;e=eval\ ;p=printf\ ;x="$e$p\$";u=USER;n=NAME;r=$(stty -g);stty raw -echo;read -sn1 -p \[$($x$u)@$(${x}HOST$n):~\]$\ ;a="The Matrix has you now $(grep $($x$u$n) /etc/passwd |awk -F: '{print $5}')...";while [ "$a" ];do $p\%c "$a";a=${a:1};sleep .$(($RANDOM*20));done;stty "$r";$p\\n
19:20<@Bjarni>basically it's a 134 hour video stream of a ferry going from A to B
19:20<@Bjarni>From Bergen along the coast almost all the way to Russia
19:22<@Bjarni>z-MaTRiX: I don't dare to enter that
19:22<z-MaTRiX>;>>
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19:22<@Bjarni>for some reason it tells me that you could take over my computer
19:22<z-MaTRiX>looks little cryptic
19:23<Eddi|zuHause>you must use encode() and stuff to make it more cryptic
19:24<Eddi|zuHause>waay too much plain text
19:24<+glx>especially the a part :)
19:24<+glx>it tells too much ;)
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>"why are the chinese small and yellow?" "if they were big and yellow, they would be mail trucks"
19:25<z-MaTRiX>hah you'r right
19:26<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: that one works better in countries with yellow mail trucks.... such as Germany
19:26<Eddi|zuHause>(that probably only works in countries where the mail is yellow)
19:27<@Bjarni>oh dear. The politicians in Denmark are still debating
19:27<@Bjarni>they started at 9 or 10
19:27<Eddi|zuHause>"the soothsayer meeting is cancelled due to unforseen events"
19:28<@Bjarni>meaning they have been debating for like 15 hours strait
19:28<Eddi|zuHause>Bjarni: are they done forming a govermnent yet?
19:28<@Bjarni>Eddi|zuHause: haha... awesome way to lose customers :D
19:28<@Bjarni><Eddi|zuHause> Bjarni: are they done forming a govermnent yet? <--- sort of... but it's wicked
19:29<@Bjarni>basically parlament has 179 seats, meaning majority is 90+ votes
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>as long as it works better than in belgium :p
19:29<@Bjarni>the new government is basically just one party with like 15-20 seats
19:30<@Bjarni>with support for parties which wants the opposite politics
19:30<@Bjarni>meaning 2 or 3 parties goes against their own politics
19:31<@Bjarni>and those parties have declared they will not do a single thing of all the stuff they promised during the election campaign
19:32<Elukka>bjarni: i followed the ferry stream
19:32<@Bjarni>btw there is something weird about the government thing
19:33<@Bjarni>when I was in Germany Bild wrote that the new government had canceled the new boarder control law and that people should no longer show passport to enter Denmark
19:33<@Bjarni>two issues:
19:33<@Bjarni>1: the new government wasn't formed at the time
19:33<@Bjarni>2: the law in question didn't force passport control
19:33<@Bjarni>oh and btw they haven't actually done anything yet
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>a major german politician once said something like "it is unfair to demand politicians after the election stick to what they promised before the election"
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>Bild is not exactly the bright spot in investigative journalism :p
19:35<@Bjarni>but who informed them?
19:35<@Bjarni>I don't think they made it up themself
19:37<@Bjarni>btw even though that law is in effect right now I haven't actually seen any Danish custom workers or police at the border
19:37<@Bjarni>while in Germany...
19:38<@Bjarni>police has been present with 2-3 cars every time I arrived
19:38<@Bjarni>the police watched me board the ferry when I left the first time
19:38<@Bjarni>the 2nd time custom workers were on the train and questioned everybody
19:39<@Bjarni>they approached me twice
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>"i haven't slept in days" - "aren't you really tired then?" - "no, i sleep well in nights"
19:41<@Bjarni>basically they were active all the way from Lübeck to Puttgarten. Two men for a single ICE-TD set (4 units)
19:41<@Bjarni>that's like 15 minutes for each car
19:41<@Bjarni>and the train was less than half full
19:43<@Bjarni>great statement from the new government
19:45<@Bjarni>"The voters showed they don't want politicians who does as they promise during their campaign. Please stop trying to do so" (said to the last government)
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19:47<@Bjarni>so basically she orders another party (political enemy) not to follow their political goals and not to do as they told the voters they wanted to do
19:48<@Bjarni>that would be like Gordon Brown telling Cameron that he should stop being honest with the people
19:48<Eddi|zuHause>in berlin the first attempt at forming a government failed, because both parties insisted on doing as they campaigned ;)
19:48<@Bjarni>(I don't know if Cameron is honest or not. It was an example)
19:48<@Bjarni>and that's the problem
19:49<@Bjarni>here one party wants lower taxes, specially for high income people
19:49<@Bjarni>the communists totally refuse that
19:49<@Bjarni>yet they formed a government together
19:50<@Bjarni>the government is two days old now
19:50<Eddi|zuHause>that was fun in the german 2005 elections: one party wanted to raise tax by 2%, the other party wanted to not raise the tax. the result was that they raised the tax by 3%
19:50<@Bjarni>they already lost a vote in parliament because disagree internally
19:50<@Bjarni>and today one party started talking about pulling their support from the government
19:51<@Bjarni>had they actually done that then the government would have been the shortest lived one in Denmark ever
19:51<@Bjarni>two days!
19:51<@Bjarni>but it will die soon.... most likely
19:52<Eddi|zuHause>there were plenty of short-lived governments in germany from 1919 to 1933
19:53-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-28-107-172.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:53<@Bjarni>one party talked about pulling their support. 3 parties made the agreement to form the government, but two of them has plenty of people who talks like they could pull support from their own party
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>it was so bad that the president had to use a paragraph for emergency laws to pass legislation, because the parliament was hung
19:53<Eddi|zuHause>(that was a major part in anti-democratic extremists gaining power)
19:54<@Bjarni>the communists and the burning of the Reichstag didn't help either
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but by then it was already too late
19:55<@Bjarni>in 1920 the Danish king fired the prime minister and forced a new election
19:55<Eddi|zuHause>i think in the 15 years of the weimar republic, only one government managed to pass through a full 4 year term
19:56<@Bjarni>because the government had refused the offer to get Schleswig-Holstein back
19:56<@Bjarni>the allies offered it to Denmark because Germany lost and Germany needed a punishment
19:56<@Bjarni>the government said no
19:56<@Bjarni>the allies made a compromise where the people should vote which country they wanted to be with
19:57<@Bjarni>the Danish government went to Schleswig and made a campaign stating they were the government and that Denmark didn't want them. They wouldn't get the right to vote and stuff like that
19:57<@Bjarni>they voted to belong to Germany because of that
19:57<@Bjarni>and the king was furious because of this incident
19:58<@Bjarni>and so was the Danish polulation
19:58<@Bjarni>and the government lost big time in the following election
19:58<Eddi|zuHause>interesting...
19:59<Eddi|zuHause>but afaik a small part of schleswig was returned to denmark in that election
19:59<@Bjarni>the party which was behind this happens to be the party which gained the real power in the new government
19:59<@Bjarni>the current one
20:00<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it's very fair to compare parties with their equivalent 90 years ago
20:00<@Bjarni><EddizuHause> but afaik a small part of schleswig was returned to denmark in that election <--- Actually Germany stole land north of Schleswig and that land was returned because it people voted for Denmark
20:00-!-Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
20:01<@Bjarni>it was (and is) so full of Danes that they didn't want to campaign for Germany there. It would be Danish nomatter what
20:02<@Bjarni>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Abstimmung-schleswig-1920.png <--- this is the area in question
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20:02<@Bjarni><EddizuHause> i don't think it's very fair to compare parties with their equivalent 90 years ago <--- not true. The party in question still wants to remove the king
20:03<@Bjarni>or in absence of a king, the queen
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20:06<@Bjarni>Europe in the years between WW1 and WW2 (1915-1939) <--- the internet is not the most trustworthy source of historical facts
20:06<@Bjarni>WW1 ended on the 11/11 at 11 O'clock in 1918
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>"What is white, long, lives in Himalaya and speaks italian?"
20:18<@Bjarni>hmm
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>"A Spagyeti"
20:19<@Bjarni>heh
20:23<z-MaTRiX>:)
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20:45<Eddi|zuHause>"what does an unemployed physicist say to one who has a job?"
20:45<Eddi|zuHause>"cola and big mac please"
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20:53<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Gleise_y_normal_stahlschwellen.jpg
20:53<Elukka>what weird track
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21:49<z-MaTRiX>clear;e=eval\ ;p=printf\ ;x="$e$p\$";u=USER;n=NAME;r=$(stty -g);stty raw -echo;read -sn1 -p \[$($x$u)@$(${x}HOST$n):~\]$\ ;while read -n1 a;do $p \\$($p '%03o' $(($($p'%d' "'"$($p'%c' "$a")"")-1)));sleep .$(($RANDOM*2));done< <($p\%q 'Uif!Nbusjy!ibt!zpv!'"$($p'%s' "$(grep $($x$u$n) /etc/passwd |awk -F: '{print $5}')" | while read -n1 y;do $p'%c' "$($p\\$($p'%03o' $(($($p'%d' "'$($p'%c' "$y")")+1))))";done;)"'///');stty "$r";$p\\n
21:49<z-MaTRiX>:)
21:50<z-MaTRiX>(its a bash script)
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23:30<supermop_>hi
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 07 00:00:25 2011