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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-07

---Logopened Fri Oct 07 00:00:25 2011
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01:22<Azdin>I used to recall there being a way to list servers in OpenTTD
01:22<Azdin>But I can't now.
01:24<Elukka>click multiplayer on the main menu, on top of that there's a dropdown menu, pick internet (not lan)
01:24<Azdin>Did that
01:24<Elukka>then press find server
01:24<Azdin>Did that also
01:25<Elukka>which version do you have?
01:25<Elukka>hmm. not hugely ancient
01:25<Elukka>sorry, haven't a clue
01:29<Azdin>still nothin
01:29<Azdin>Is there a new-ish openttd game I can connect to?
01:45<Elukka>there's a huge amount of servers up
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01:45<Elukka>you should still see them even if you have the wrong version
01:46<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: you there?
01:49<Elukka>i was going to draw the door open version of the goods car but it occurred to me i have no idea what the floor material is so i don't know what color to make it
01:50<Elukka>i also assume only / and \ versions are needed
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02:14<Azdin>Nah, the list isn't showing up at all
02:23<@peter1138>it's working for me
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03:08<@Terkhen>good morning
03:11<Elukka>a 3 lu wagon sure looks weird on the diagonals..
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03:12<Elukka>the end is longer than the side
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03:21<Kogut>good morning
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03:37<V453000>hi guys
03:37<Kogut>@Terkhen Is it trunkable to increase maximum size of AI log? There are AI crashes with incomplete reports as window was too small
03:38<Kogut>patch is trivial ( )
03:38<@Terkhen>Kogut: I don't know
03:38<@Terkhen>I have never worked with AI at all, besides making some changes with a lot of help :P
03:38<Kogut>Main problem is that AI log is limited to 80 lines
03:39<@Terkhen>the patch does not look wrong to me, but you should ask someone else or upload to flyspray
03:40<Kogut>@Yexo Is it trunkable to increase maximum size of AI log? There are AI crashes with incomplete reports as window was too small - patch is trivial ( )
03:48<Kogut>We live in feature - my first thought:
03:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23009 /trunk/src/ (fontcache.cpp fontcache.h gfx.cpp): -Change: Improve appearance of antialiased text with shadow.
03:49<Kogut>And then I searched "We live in the feature" - and I found
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03:50<@planetmaker>Kogut: I think the issue tracker is a good place and easier to find than IRC log :-)
03:51<Kogut>well, I thought he is online
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03:51<@planetmaker>maybe not :-)
03:51<@planetmaker>the nick is online 24/7. He personally certainly not ;-)
03:53<V453000>how do you know he isnt :P
03:54<@planetmaker>V453000: I could look whether he's attached to our bouncer ;-)
03:54<V453000>oh :)
03:56<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23010 /trunk/src/table/station_land.h: -Add [FS#4797]: Support company colour for the airports' jetways (zeroeight)
03:57<@planetmaker>ty, Kogut
03:58<@planetmaker>for adding it to the bug tracker. :-)
03:59<norbert79>haven't been on tt-forums, are spammers still an issue? :)
04:00<norbert79>...and I got that already answered... Found one already
04:00<norbert79>Kogut: Yeah, just seen it...
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04:05<dihedral>good morning
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04:09<Kogut>Why things like are not closed as "Wont fix/Not a bug "
04:11<norbert79>Kogut: Good question... Besides, user might go through settings first, instead of complaining...
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04:12<Elukka>a pretty new locomotive, for a change
04:12<norbert79>Elukka: You own one of these? :)))
04:12<Elukka>hah, no
04:12<Elukka>just ran into it
04:15<Elukka>i think most modern locomotives look like nondescript boxes
04:17<norbert79>Well, there is the Flirt, there is the ICE...
04:17<norbert79>won't call them as 'boxes'
04:17<Elukka>technically, they're multiple units and thus don't have a locomotive :P
04:17<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23011 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4791]: When the last used server is deleted from the list also clear the last used server if it is the same (monoid)
04:18<norbert79>Elukka: You see these also often in Hungary too
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04:18<Elukka>yeah we've got a bunch
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04:20<norbert79>Bo-2-2-2-Bo means 2 wheels besides each other or 1-1 each side?
04:20<norbert79>I mean for "2"
04:23<norbert79>Elukka: I thought you are familiar with this, since you are such a huge train fan... :)
04:24<Elukka>well, i'm not hugely knowledgeable
04:25<@peter1138>O-O o-o o-o o-o O-O
04:25<norbert79>so 1-1... Got it
04:25<norbert79>I thought 2 would mean oo-oo
04:25<norbert79>or oo=oo
04:26<b_jonas>all those chemistry symbols
04:26<Markk>hm, wheels between the bogies?
04:27<norbert79>and I-O-I would be a Tie Fighter
04:27<@peter1138>norbert79, no point in listing wheels on either side of the vehicle
04:28<@peter1138>it's unlikely to be different
04:28<norbert79>peter1138: Understand, thank you
04:28<@peter1138>of course, there's the Whyte system which does ;p
04:28<norbert79>peter1138: Don't make me confused... :)
04:28<@peter1138>4-6-2 being ooOOOo
04:29<norbert79>Well, in my childhood locomotives were just 1-1
04:29<b_jonas>4-6-2 sounds like either the _name_ of a locomotive, or a football tactics
04:30<norbert79>b_jonas: Won't be football (soccer), since that would mean 12 players :)
04:30<b_jonas>sure, it just sounds like
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04:30<b_jonas>maybe some related game
04:30<@peter1138>difficult to have an odd number of wheels...
04:30<@planetmaker>b_jonas: if you play football with 4-6-2 tactic you're not playing football ;-)
04:31<norbert79>Even for Baseball that would be too much
04:31<@peter1138>2-1 <- 2cv with a wheel off
04:31<b_jonas>I know, it has to sum to 10 in football
04:31<@planetmaker>or you bribed the referee
04:31<norbert79>+1 goalkeeper
04:32<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, 22 would been in 1990 possible, when DDR and BDR got merged... :))
04:32<Elukka>whyte notation is the only wheel arrangement thing i can make sense of
04:33<Elukka>(ie 2-6-2)
04:33<norbert79>it's shorter, but not always very informative
04:33<norbert79>I prefer something like the Bo-2-2-2-Bo like
04:33<norbert79>Type included, while numbers represent regular wheels
04:34<@peter1138>whyte is okay for steam
04:35<@peter1138>the driving wheels are implied, which is no use for the wheel arrangement on diesels & electrics
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04:37<b_jonas>you sound like the adults in the Little Prince with all these numbers: “I've seen a 2-6-0.” “How beautiful!”
04:37<@peter1138>Elukka, it's a simple substitution... A=1, B=2, etc ;)
04:37<norbert79>b_jonas: Lol
04:38<norbert79>b_jonas: True :)
04:38<@peter1138>i hate you
04:39<@peter1138>i'm looking at locomotive wheel arrangements
04:39<@peter1138>instead of working :p
04:39<norbert79>peter1138: It's a Friday...
04:39<norbert79>peter1138: At least you have an excuse then
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05:08<appe>jazz tip of the day: abbey lincoln
05:08<Eddi|zuHause>[07.10.2011 07:50] <Elukka> i also assume only / and \ versions are needed <-- no, the train may be longer than the platform, so all views might be needed
05:10<Elukka>oh, that's true
05:11<Elukka>any idea if it should have a brown or grey floor?
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>rather make it grey
05:15<Eddi|zuHause>should make for better contrast
05:15<Elukka>well it'll be more visible that way
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05:16<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Such would be nice on the screenshot page of OpenTTD: - But of course based on OpenTTD... :)
05:18<norbert79>(The difference of plain animated GIF's based on recording and these are, that only just a small portion of the actual animation moves, making it partly still-life, and moving)
05:20<Eddi|zuHause>why tell me?
05:21<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Wanted to share this with someone... And you were active :)
05:21<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: and you are at home all the time :P
05:26<@peter1138>so temporal photoshops...
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05:28<norbert79>peter1138: Well, basically animated GIF's, but just different
05:29<Kogut>Well, screenshots on openttd mainpage are not very interesting
05:30<Kogut>what about openttdcoop/newgrf stuff
05:30<norbert79>Kogut: There is a screenshot page at main site, I was merely thinking about placing one such there
05:30<norbert79>Kogut: Oh, sorry, you are on a different topic
05:32<@planetmaker>what about that, Kogut?
05:32<norbert79>Kogut: Well, for examplke this one has some screenshots included:
05:33<norbert79>looks nice imo, I like this new concept
05:34<Kogut>now on "Latest User Screenshot of 1.1.3" is rather uninteresting
05:36<@planetmaker>quite so, yes
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>for years i have asked to change that image
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>and the text is stupid
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>and a blatant lie
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>because the screenshot is actually from before 0.5
05:39<@planetmaker>so, any suggestions for a replacement?
05:39<norbert79>planetmaker: Why not making a contest?
05:39<norbert79>planetmaker: in the forums...
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05:39<norbert79>planetmaker: 1.1.3 has no screenshots at all
05:40<Kogut>or reuse somrthing from title competition
05:40<Kogut>everything will be better
05:40<@planetmaker>we only go by the x in the 1.x.y versioning scheme
05:40<Kogut>including AI constructed railways
05:40<norbert79>Only requirement would be using either OpenGFX or Original graphics and no NewGRFs
05:40<@planetmaker>But yes
05:40<norbert79>or that
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>what speaks against making that text just read "user screenshots"?
05:41<norbert79>Why not telling: Screenshots?
05:41<norbert79>Basically if you reuse title competition shots
05:41<norbert79>that's still fro the game
05:42<norbert79>And this: could be a shot from the Title, but without the Logo and the menu...
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>why restrict to title competition?
05:42<norbert79>Didn't, but it's the easiest
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>that makes no sense
05:42<norbert79>You already got the screenshots from them
05:43<@planetmaker>why easy? One could argue to take a vanilla OpenTTD there, but I'm not entirely sure it should be a requirement. It's at least not for the screenshots behind that 'main' image
05:43<norbert79>planetmaker: Wasn't trying to be strict or limiting, jsut saying, that the time spent on them would be much shorter if you would use existing resources
05:44<norbert79>that's all
05:44<norbert79>And I also uploaded some shots on my Deviantart page too
05:45<norbert79>I would be happy sending those to the collection, well, not every each of it
05:45<norbert79>but 2 or 3
05:45<@planetmaker>well. There's zillion screenshots in zillions*100 places
05:45<norbert79>plantain: Sure, that's true
05:45<@planetmaker>It's about having a good selection
05:45<@planetmaker>What's there now is mostly screenshots which people send to us via e-mail from time to time
05:46<@planetmaker>And last time it was updated was last December when I went through that years worth of screenshot e-mails
05:46<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, you can still do similar, like with the Title competition
05:46<norbert79>and leave the voting on the registered users of tt-forums
05:46<@planetmaker>yes. Or you do that competition Like 10 best from the 1.1.x series :-)
05:47<@planetmaker>I'll be happy to put them there then
05:47<norbert79>There is still the option leaving the voting up to the community
05:47<@planetmaker>the number is negotiable
05:47<@planetmaker>yes, then go, organize that competition and that vote :-)
05:48<norbert79>well, will do that, after I have taken care of my 2 children and my wife this evening, will do that in 5 minutes ;-)
05:48<norbert79>You are the master of the Forums, not me :)
05:48<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still not sure what you need a vote for
05:48<@planetmaker>yeah :-)
05:49<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: People send in pictures, then we get a list, and people can vote on their favorites, at the end you will have the first 10 which will be then put into the screenshot folder
05:49<@planetmaker>it should also show different facettes of the game
05:49<norbert79>You can still overrule the end-result...
05:49<@planetmaker>a vote might just get a list of the nicest 10 shots of stations in a more or less similar style
05:49<@planetmaker>an interesting entry might also be to show parts of the GUI (as the nightly screenshot I prepared back then)
05:50<norbert79>Well, you cannot find this out, until you try...
05:50<@planetmaker>it's about showing the game and its bredth of options. Not (only) about the
05:50<Kogut>maybe categories: "realistic", junctions, large stations, ais
05:50<norbert79>Might be, that you won't be the only one wanting to show it
05:50<@planetmaker>"best building" (or realistic)
05:51<Kogut>interface, realistic, effective, newgrf overdose, ships, landscape
05:52<norbert79>well, there are only 2 choices: either the admins cherry pick all they want, or they leave this on the community, and let them upload and decide which is good and which isn't...
05:52<@planetmaker>such categories might be a good thing indeed
05:52<norbert79>Kogut: Agree
05:53<Kogut>interface, realistic, effective, newgrf overdose, ships, landscape +ais? (I am biased, it may be uniteresting)
05:53<norbert79>realistic = "realistic view" or "realism"
05:53<@planetmaker>how would AIs look different from just more companies (unless the UI for them is shown)?
05:53<norbert79>planetmaker: What vehicles/trains they use, building style
05:54<norbert79>Yet because of the variety I doubt it would be interesting
05:54<norbert79>and some can just "cheat" on it
05:54<norbert79>Modifying a layout made by the AI, making it look better, than in reality
05:54<norbert79>just for the screenshot
05:55<Kogut>no cheating
05:56<@planetmaker>why not?
05:56<norbert79>then we should drop the category of AI...
05:56<norbert79>and keep the rest
05:56<Kogut>I may be interesting to show that AI is able to build sth
05:56<norbert79>Kogut: Told you, that can be cheated on...
05:56<@planetmaker>hm... so "interface", "landscape", "construction", "traffic" ?
05:57<norbert79>You might would like to add NewGRF
05:57<Kogut>for example - ChooChoo is able to build interesting things
05:57<norbert79>as seperate
05:59<norbert79>Kogut: Sure, but lets imagine I would like to include a shot of mine, I use ChooChoo, but correct some minor mistakes made by the AI, to make it look better. Then it will be seen by one trying the game for first time, choosing the same AI, and then it shows something different then
05:59<norbert79>On the other hand, a not so advanced AI is being shown on a shot, but since Screenshots age too, it might send a false message
05:59<norbert79>since AI's are also under development all the time
06:00<@planetmaker>norbert79: alternatively you can just select a committee to be the judge on the screenshots. ;-)
06:01<norbert79>planetmaker: Sure, but let's just avoid making an AI look bad... :)
06:01<@planetmaker>or like: ask for submissions of screenshots. then sort them into categories. And put these categories to vote
06:02<@planetmaker>like 1 of this category. top 3 of this. top 2 of this etc
06:02<norbert79>planetmaker: That's also a solution, but I would go for an 'automated' method, where users upload the shots themselves
06:02<@planetmaker>might work best to get a broad distribution of things
06:02<@planetmaker>yes, thus first gather submissions
06:02<Kogut>I am trying to produce nice ChooChoo screen, without cheating
06:03<@planetmaker>I think categorizing them not by the user but by someone with the right categories in mind to get a broad distribution of what's possible might be best :-)
06:03<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, that portion is hard to do, easier would be telling: if a picture uploaded does not represent it's category it will be automatically dropped...
06:04<@planetmaker>norbert79: that's psychologically worse, though :-)
06:04<norbert79>planetmaker: Sure, but also enforce users choosing the right category :)
06:04<norbert79>and in case of doubt, just use the closest one of the categories
06:04<@planetmaker>norbert79: but you could still add a category when screenshots lend itself to a new or split one :-)
06:04<Kogut>fla area, multiple towns and industries
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>chattanooga choochoo:
06:05<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: And I just got Glenn Miller's collection with me :D
06:05<Eddi|zuHause>(very well known melody in germany :))
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06:07<norbert79>planetmaker: Now I am more thinking about the technical side... Guess plain upload screen with selectable categories would be enough, and each categpry would have it's own folder, but would drop anything, than JPG, GIF or PNG or PCX
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06:07<norbert79>Be right back...
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06:11<Eddi|zuHause>err... outright reject anything but png!
06:16<@planetmaker>norbert79: or a simple forum thread for starters
06:16<@planetmaker>and make it png only
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08:06<@planetmaker>hi z-MaTRiX
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08:09<@planetmaker>now. *that's* interesting ;-)
08:09<@Terkhen>yeah, it changed my life
08:09<@planetmaker>and I should consider to switch my baker
08:09<@planetmaker>it just happened the 2nd time I got back too little change
08:10<@planetmaker>luckily I noticed in time
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08:10<@Terkhen>math is complicated when you use it to give someone money :P
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08:11<@planetmaker>I always wonder how much people who're not good with doing some quick math are ripped off
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08:12<@planetmaker>paying 5.43 instead of 4.43 is quite a high margin ;-)
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09:04<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: While reading I just received an update to tzdata
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09:27<@Terkhen>hmm... is there a NewGRF example of houses producing something different than passengers or mail anywhere? I spotted something fishy in OpenTTD code and I need a test grf
09:27<@planetmaker>hm, producing?
09:28<@Terkhen>oooh, the code makes sense now, but I still need the example
09:28*planetmaker doesn't know
09:28<@Terkhen>planetmaker: yes, the more it abuses the house production callback the better :P
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>how do houses produce tourists?
09:29<@Terkhen>using that callback, I suppose
09:30<@Terkhen>so ECS houses produce tourists?
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09:31<norbert79>Terkhen: Yes
09:31<@Terkhen>ok, I'll test with them for now... I'll make the really crazy test NewGRF later
09:32<norbert79>Terkhen: Havent played ECS for a while but I can remember tourists
09:32<norbert79>and one whole building dedicated to it
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>TTRS houses with ECS tourist vector
09:32<@Terkhen>ok, thanks :)
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>but i haven't played that combination very much at all
09:33<appe>you guys use excel alot?
09:33<norbert79>appe: I am more using Libreoffice
09:42<norbert79>appe: Yet if that helps, maybe I could help
09:52<appe>i dont think it will, since i fixed it.
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09:52<appe>thanks anyway!
09:52<norbert79>Sure, any time ;-(
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11:44<norbert79>Wish you all a pleasent weekend!
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13:07<appe>the same to you :).
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13:32<@Alberth>moin Wolf01
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13:36<Eddi|zuHause>hm... date_of_last_service is apparently wrong for wagons/articulated parts
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13:59<@planetmaker>Kogut: do you have an AI for me wrt FS#4798 which produces that long crash log?
14:00<@planetmaker>(or maybe a savegame with an AI which triggers it)
14:02<@planetmaker>is that the on on bananas?
14:04<Kogut>and AIAI crashed with sth similar (during development)
14:04<Kogut>so it is possible that it will crash again
14:05<Kogut>and debug info reported by random person on ttdforums will be useless
14:06<@planetmaker>I understand the problem. But I still have no way to reproduce it ;-)
14:06<Kogut>crash ai with more than 80 variables
14:06<@planetmaker>and my question was: which is that? Where do I get that?
14:07<Kogut>openttd will print why game crashed, location of crash (very important) and 80 variables (not so important).
14:07<Kogut>AI log is limited to 80 lines
14:07<@planetmaker>yes, that's clear.
14:08<Kogut>I can create AI that will declare 80 variables and then perform 0/0 operation
14:08<@planetmaker>so... no such AI exists right now?
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>Kogut: what planetmaker means is: "please give me an AI file that deterministically crashes by doing steps X, Y and Z"
14:10<@planetmaker>well, if it doesn't exist... for this case it might then be a bit much work. Though it'd help me see the problem solved
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>so... need inspiration how to do purchase list sprite selection
14:13<@planetmaker>what's the issue there, Eddi|zuHause?
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: certain vehicle-specific variables are not available there
14:13<@planetmaker>yes... do we need them and why?
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>so i need a separate selection path
14:14<@planetmaker>Hm... do we have already the different list view sprites for vehicles?
14:14<Kogut> - main
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: currently we have selection by date_of_last_service
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>since 10 minutes or so :)
14:15<Kogut> - info.nut
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14:17<Kogut>@Planetmaker - in 1.1.3 this AI crashes without message what happened (as openttd prints over 80 variables)
14:19<Kogut>In real example AI crashed from FindBrakeVan executed from BuildTrain executed from BuildRailwayConnection from ...
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>Kogut: might that be helped if openttd wrote an ai_crash.log file?
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14:21<@planetmaker>that would indeed be a very helpful and nice addition
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>and an ai_debug.log if a (to be introduced) ai_developer setting is introduced?
14:21<@planetmaker>*hint* *hint*
14:22<@planetmaker>that exists already
14:22<@planetmaker>ai_developer or so
14:22<Kogut>no, as I have patched version and it will require additional problems with average users reporting ai bugs
14:23<Kogut>yes, sometimes people report crashes of AIs
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14:23<Kogut>mainly via e-mail
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14:24<@planetmaker>yes. I was asking you: are you interested in writing a patch which will create an ai_crash.log upon an AI crash
14:25<Kogut>I think it is better to keep ai crashlogs in one place
14:25<@planetmaker>because a 400 lines screenshot starts to become a pain
14:25<@planetmaker>no one wants to take 10 screenshots
14:27<Kogut>maybe proper solution is to move important info (location of crash and what caused it) to bottom?
14:27<@Alberth>and you trust average joe to understand what info is important?
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14:28<@Yexo>that's very hard, since that would mean diving in the squirrel code
14:29<Kogut>but now even uploading entire crashlog is useless (sometimes)
14:29*planetmaker finds it very intuitive to just gather *crash*log and post that
14:29<@planetmaker>Kogut: we're not talking about the length. Just about getting the information in a user-friendly way
14:29<@planetmaker>as report-likelyness decreases, if the user has to do too much
14:30<Kogut>Is it possible to open crashlogfile on AI crash, in way similar to AILog window?
14:30<Kogut>Is it problem similar to clickable URLs?
14:30<@planetmaker>Kogut: I also don't say to remove that from the AI debug window. Just additionally to write that backlog into a file upon crash
14:31<@Terkhen>so it can be checked without having to take a screenshot
14:31<@planetmaker>as screenshots are a pain for scroll-windows. Getting a file is dead easy
14:31<@planetmaker>especially on like 13" screens or so
14:31<Kogut>typical user is unable to put grf in proper folder :)
14:32<@planetmaker>Tell the user it is found in his openttd data foler
14:32<@planetmaker>people find crash reports
14:32<@planetmaker>you gotta trust that
14:32<@planetmaker>did you ever read the normal openttd crash window? It also tells you which files to get from where
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14:35<Kogut>I am not sure whatever it will be better
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14:37<Kogut>@Yexo - is it needed to change sth in this waypoint patch? ( )
14:38<@Yexo>coding style for brackets near if/else
14:39<@Yexo>you could avoid the very long line by adding "uint p1 = ...;" above it, same for p2
14:39<@Yexo>we don't have a hard limit on line length, but 350 columns is a bit over the top
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14:49<CIA-2>OpenTTD: planetmaker * r23012 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_log.cpp: -Fix [FS#4798]: AI backlog was to short to fully display the backtrace of some AI crashes (Kogut)
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14:54<Kogut>@Yexo - - new version
14:55<@Yexo> @pre size < 15 <- make that and the line following it this; @pre 0 < size <= 15
14:55<@Yexo>15 is ok, 16 is not
14:56<@Yexo> @note GetRailTracks(tile_in_rectangle) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW || GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NW_SE <- that one is pointless
14:56<@Yexo>it's implied by the next line and the @pre a few lines before
14:57<@Yexo>(TileIndex tile, int width, StationID waypoint_id); <- now do you want to call it "width" or "size"
14:57<@Yexo>pick one and stay with it
14:57<@Yexo>@return Whether the rail waypoint(s) <- it's singular
14:58<Kogut>width => size
14:58<Kogut>"@return Whether the rail waypoint(s) <- it's singular" - and?
14:59<@Yexo>just write "the rail waypoint"
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15:00<Kogut>ok, hi andy
15:00<Kogut>sth else?
15:01<@Yexo>adding it to ai_changelog.hpp
15:05<@planetmaker>salut andythenorth
15:05<Kogut> updated
15:07<Kogut>@Yexo - +#include "../../core/math_func.hpp" is probably useless (leftover of swaps), I will remove it
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15:07<@Yexo>tab too much on closing bracker after the else
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15:09<Kogut>@Yexo, patch in post updated, maybe now it is OK
15:10<@Yexo>you need to update your checkout
15:11<@Yexo>if(GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW){ <- should be if (GetRailTracks(tile) == RAILTRACK_NE_SW) { spaces between "if" and "(" and ")" and "{"
15:11*andythenorth is cross with BROS again
15:12<andythenorth>one day a mod will tell me to stop bullying them :P
15:13<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I gave up. They're back to square one as of two years ago
15:13<andythenorth>but I have to live in this country and witness the efforts of thousands of these half-wits
15:13<andythenorth>BROS people are symptomatic of (some) technical British people
15:13<andythenorth>not all
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>the problem with incompetent people: they're in the vast majority
15:14<andythenorth>but the europeans on this forum are a lot less dumb
15:15<andythenorth>in general
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>you haven't seen the german forum :p
15:15<@planetmaker>nah. There's just a significant amount more continental than islanders
15:15<Kogut>maybe on this forum we have typical sample of brits
15:15<andythenorth>the non-native-english speakers here are self-filtered
15:15<andythenorth>they're smart enough to converse at high level in english :P
15:16<@planetmaker>and we have sufficient positive examples. The ratio is the same ;-)
15:16<@planetmaker>just absolut numbers of course not
15:16<andythenorth>so idiocy in engineering is not limited to the uk?
15:16<@planetmaker>probably not
15:16<andythenorth>another myth punctured :P
15:16<michi_cc>The not-so-smart people remain at tt-ms :p
15:16<@planetmaker>hehe @ michi_cc
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15:17<andythenorth>which country is the best at engineering?
15:17<MNIM>germany, hands down
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15:18<MNIM>hey, if you know the answer, why do you ask the question?
15:18<Prof_Frink>MNIM: Hydro are German. This alone excludes them.
15:19<Prof_Frink>People you don't want to be thinking about when you're in an aeroplane.
15:19<MNIM>...i fail to see the link between engineering, hydros, customers and airplanes.
15:20<Prof_Frink>Hydro are an aero engineering company.
15:20<Prof_Frink>We do work for them.
15:22<Kogut>@Yexo - after battle with tortoiseSVN merger I created new version of patch
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15:23<Kogut>@andythenorth - why India
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15:24<weirdy>Hey, and devs around?
15:25<@Alberth>perhaps :)
15:26<@Alberth>andythenorth: today I heard it is called 'bike shedding'. It is the fact that time spent on items is inverse proportional to its importance
15:26<weirdy>I was just wondering, is there any specific reason why there is no feature akin to TTDp's Enhanced tunnel entrances?
15:26<@planetmaker>you didn't write a patch for it
15:26<@planetmaker>nor anyone else
15:27<@Alberth>how are they enhanced?
15:27<@planetmaker>a patch which solves all the rough edges of that feature
15:27<@Alberth>that would be enhanced indeed :p
15:27<@planetmaker>Alberth: allowing to build rail on a tunnel entrance
15:27<@Terkhen>no patch, yes
15:27<andythenorth>Alberth awesome thanks
15:27<andythenorth>I can use that as business buzzword crap next week :P
15:28<@Alberth>planetmaker: I suspected as much :)
15:28<andythenorth>I shall use that at work :)
15:28<Kogut>so it will look ridiculous with standard graphics
15:28<weirdy>What happened to the custom bridgeheads patch too?
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>enhanced tunnels is closely related to custom bridgeheads
15:28<Kogut>pathfinder problems AFAIK
15:28<@planetmaker>nice Alberth. Now I learnt a new phrase / word :-)
15:29<@Alberth>weirdy: we like the enhanced tunnels, but only if sufficiently generalized (eg stations/roads/etc on tunnel entrances too)
15:29<weirdy>ah, that would complicate things I can imagine
15:30<@Alberth>which is probably why it is not in OpenTTD
15:30<weirdy>So if I want it in I'll need to write a personal patch?
15:30<andythenorth>someone showed that the enhanced tunnels have a horrible edge case
15:30<andythenorth>can't remember it
15:30<@planetmaker>probably rb
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15:31<@Alberth>weirdy: you are free to publish it if you want :)
15:31*weirdy gets back to building moar bridges
15:32<andythenorth>what do I call slopes like 4 and 8 in tileh.png?
15:32<@planetmaker>weirdy: patches can readily be published. We accept good solutions gladly
15:32<andythenorth>anyway, I would like tunnels that can start / end on those type of tiles
15:33<Kogut>and underground constructions!
15:33<andythenorth>and metro
15:33<andythenorth>and signals everywhere!
15:33<Kogut>and cargodist
15:34<weirdy>So if I made a patch for basic enhanced tunnels that didn't unclude every type of tile under the sun, it may still be added to the trunk if the patch was up to scratch?
15:36<@Alberth>assuming you are not going to support the void tile-type, you will always have a subset of tile types supported :p
15:36<Kogut>@Yexo - can you check it?
15:38<weirdy>Now I just need to learn how to make a patch...
15:40<@Alberth>theoretically, you can write a patch-file, although in practice, changing the source code and let the VCS generate a diff is easier.
15:40<@Yexo>looks fine
15:40<Kogut>so, is it possible to commit it to trunk?
15:41<michi_cc>Why am I even arguing with mb?
15:42<@Yexo>Kogut: yes, after I've tested it. which I'm not going to do right now
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: common newbie mistake :p
15:42<Kogut>OK, (I tested it with AI but maybe I missed sth)
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15:58<andythenorth>michi_cc: arguing with mb is a gravitational thing
15:58<andythenorth>you can try and fight it, but it's inevitable
16:00<Rubidium>michi_cc: because you like arguing in German?
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16:01<andythenorth>are german arguments relatively precise? Or do they suffer word collision + meaning ambiguity like english arguments?
16:01<andythenorth>meaning ambiguity is more common
16:02<andythenorth>in tests, 46% of english arguments can be distilled down to pissy semantics
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: word collision and meaning ambiguity are possibly rarer than in english, but some people have the amazing ability to twist your words around to mean the complete opposite :p
16:04<andythenorth>I see
16:04<michi_cc>German arguments might be more precise, but as people like selective reading and deliberate misunderstanding too much, in the end there's probably no difference.
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, MB has mastered both these skills very well :)
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16:12<andythenorth>I don't believe he does it deliberately
16:12<andythenorth>I can't believe he is just trolling people :)
16:15<@Terkhen>you can do both
16:15<supermop_>why does he have such influence? no disrespect intended - just wondering...
16:15<frosch123>i started searching for mental handicaps which fit his symptoms, but did not succeed so far
16:16<frosch123>i don't think he is trolling intetionally, he really believes what he says
16:16<@planetmaker>not sure
16:16<andythenorth>supermop_: he's actually quite good at keeping some things in line
16:17<andythenorth>I like MB :)
16:17<andythenorth>he may just be on the spectrum. he's likely not the only one around here...
16:18<supermop_>hmm. is Josef not involved with anything anymore?
16:18<frosch123>supermop_: mb does not have any influence
16:18<frosch123>at least not that i noticed
16:18<@planetmaker>andythenorth: there's no one in this channel who blatantly accuses others of things they don't do while arguing the next minute he didn't say so
16:19<frosch123>josef left in 2007 (or 2008?)
16:19<andythenorth>frosch123: ECS labels
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>he's one of those guys who have been around for a very long time, and had significant influence while the community was <10 people
16:19<andythenorth>plus I listen to him when he happens to be right
16:19<andythenorth>of course, that's for *my* definition of right :P
16:22<frosch123>well, he learned nfo by trial and error. so over the years he learned a lot about ttdp due to it working along the lines "try it, it might work". but today there are enough people who can read sourcecode and just tell you what is happening, without much trying
16:22<frosch123>now his knowledge is at best half-baked and wrong in the details
16:24<supermop_>i guess i missed out on a lot of history by going straight from playing tto to 0.6.x
16:24<PeanutHorst>you also missed a lot of insanity
16:24<@planetmaker>supermop_: yes, that's when 2/3 of that history was already written ;-)
16:24<PeanutHorst>\dodged a bullet, so to speak
16:24<@planetmaker>and that's where that "influence" comes from
16:24<supermop_>i still find the trenches on the monorail tracks to be foreign
16:25<andythenorth>supermop_: they make for *stupid* road crossings :P
16:25<andythenorth>I tried to fix them
16:25<andythenorth>no dice
16:25<supermop_>in tto monorail could not cross road
16:25<@planetmaker>that's a difficult thing :-)
16:25<@planetmaker>supermop_: you can re-define monorail and disallow it ;-)
16:25<supermop_>did have a nice beam bridge though
16:26<supermop_>don't think its not on my list (of ideas i barely understand how to execute)
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: start with something easy: a grf that forbids monorail on road crossings
16:27<supermop_>I would love an alweg style monorail, available in the 60s with relatively slow trains
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>that's something along the lines of 3-5 loc
16:28<supermop_>ive even drawn graphics for a hitachi train similar to the Tama monorail
16:28<supermop_>the trench does have the benefit of being able to convincingly have platforms at the same height as for maglev and steel rail
16:29<frosch123>hmm, in 10 months newgrf turn 10, which is also about when ttdp could be considered dead for 5 years
16:29<supermop_>but i want to code other things first
16:29<supermop_>and it takes me a long time
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16:38<andythenorth>frosch123: 5 years :O
16:39*andythenorth is surprised
16:39<frosch123>andythenorth: depends when you consider it like that. i decided the use the point where patchman effectively left
16:41<andythenorth>when I started playing this game, it seemed patch was default :)
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16:42<frosch123>well, when i joined newgrf specs were basically implemented in ottd, i only did some polishing
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>when i joined, newgrf support in openttd was still seriously lacking
16:44<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. neither elrails nor stations worked
16:45<frosch123>august 2002: first newgrf feature; july 2007: second last commit of patchman; april 2008: release of ottd 0.6.0 basically catching up with newgrf; today is october 2011
16:45<Eddi|zuHause>oh and the buggy PBS were in trunk, blocking a release
16:46<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that's when it started playing ottd, because i thought it was an update to ttdp :p
16:46<@planetmaker>haha :-)
16:47<@peter1138>when i joined!
16:47*andythenorth couldn't play ttdp anyway due to mac issues
16:47<@planetmaker>but... yes, I looked around that time at it as I didn't want to go through the pain to run ttdp through wine or dosbox
16:47<@peter1138>i remember when newstations was my massive uncommitted patch...
16:48<@planetmaker>I was with 0.4.8 a bit disappointed though... 0.5.3 was much better :-)
16:48*frosch123 played ttdp 2.0 for about a year, then switched to ottd when looking for a new version of ttdp
16:48<TWerkhoven>[21:46:08] <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: that's when it started playing ottd, because i thought it was an update to ttdp :p <-- sounds familiar actually
16:48<Elukka>when i started playing i remember ttdp was the one that got new features first
16:49<Elukka>still preferred ottd for various reasons
16:49<@Terkhen>heh :P
16:49<@peter1138>--- station_cmd.c (revision 3070)
16:49<@peter1138>newstations1.diff ;)
16:49<andythenorth>peter1138 remember when your massive uncommitted roadtypes patch went in?
16:50<@peter1138>andythenorth, that isn't massive
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>i very sporadically played TTDPatch, i think it was 1.6 or 1.7 when i first found it
16:51<Eddi|zuHause>the next time i played openttd 0.4.0 (without .1)
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>and then half a year later i played nightlies
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>and it was bad enough that it made me join here
16:52<Eddi|zuHause>PBS and newgrf troubles
16:53<supermop_>i joined here because i had no idea how to make a fenced yard tile
16:53<supermop_>(still dont)
16:53<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you played ottd 0.4.0 without that was only around for 6 days :p
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yep
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>like a week later i couldn't join servers anymore, so i updated
16:56<@peter1138>+ // THIS IS TOTALLY WRONG
16:56<@peter1138>well, at least i knew it...
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>i remember a comment like: "TODO: doesn't work -- WHAT doesn't work?"
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>it was there for years :)
17:00<@peter1138>i remember there being a point in doing newstations where i realised that the newgrf support was majorly hacked up just for vehicles
17:01<frosch123>esp stations :p
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17:01<frosch123>maybe also the reason, why stations are actually the most-incomplete grf-feature in ottd
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>i remember you complaining about how the first newgrf support was hacked in to manage specific grfs, not something remotely generic
17:01<frosch123>noone uses the stuff anyway
17:01*andythenorth doesn't understand how to code stations. I've outsourced that to y*xo
17:01<supermop_>i use stations?
17:02<supermop_>or try to
17:02<@peter1138>frosch123, i don't remember it being too incomplete
17:02<andythenorth>it's complete enough
17:02<frosch123>were random triggers ever implemented?
17:02<andythenorth>just a bit bonkers
17:02<@peter1138>long ago
17:02<@peter1138>and animation
17:02<@planetmaker>good night
17:02<@peter1138>but then nobody ever used it
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>something about delivery stats was still missing last time i checked
17:02<andythenorth>ISR uses animation :)
17:03<@peter1138>Eddi|zuHause, yes
17:03<frosch123>peter1138: animation is implemented yet, but i never found a trace of random triggers
17:03<@peter1138>station animation is where TileArea came from
17:03<Eddi|zuHause>but the only GRF that makes use of those is unreleased by you know who
17:04<frosch123>random bits are only randomised on building stations
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>which actually brings me back to a suggestion i had: instead of currently waiting cargo, effects should be based on average throughput per month
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>ISR has beautiful cargo piles, but they never show, because stations must always be empty
17:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: not with FIRS new station algorithm :D
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17:08<frosch123>peter1138: random triggers are definitely not implemented for stations
17:08<andythenorth>I usually have around 1,000t waiting at primaries
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>i never actually tested that :)
17:08<andythenorth>total game changer :)
17:08<frosch123>but noone ever complained about it missing :p
17:08<andythenorth>should have been done *years* ago :P
17:08<andythenorth>^ station rating, not random trigger
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17:19<@Terkhen>good night
17:20<appe>=IF(Diagram!B18>70%;"";"Adressfil har nått 70% bearbetning. Se över alternativa listor för samma projekt!")
17:21<appe>does this feel right to you? :)
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17:23<andythenorth>good night
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17:23<Kogut>new station rating?
17:29<supermop_>show waiting cargo on platforms in proportion to station rating rather than actual amount waiting I think is what he is suggesting?
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>make the station rating so it does not drop immediately when no train is waiting, so cargo has a chance to pile up
17:33<supermop_>that sounds better
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17:34<Kogut>I must try it
17:34<Kogut>but now - good night
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17:39<Elukka>that sounds amazingly sensible
17:39<supermop_>Yexo, do you want hand drawn 32bpp or rendered?
17:40<supermop_>seems it would be best to stick to one or the other
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17:44<@Yexo>both are fine
17:46<@Yexo>there are not so many sprites available currently, so for now I'm mor than happy with any sprites at all
17:47<supermop_>which chunk might be most manageable for one to take on himself?
17:48<@Yexo>I don't know
17:48<@Yexo>there are a lot of train engines and wagons that have models already, they just need to be rendered for normal zoom
17:50<supermop_>on the thing for airports
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17:50<supermop_>it mentions a seaplane port - would this be able to use extant water tiles or would one need to draw those?
17:50<@Yexo>there is no seaplane port available currently
17:51<@Yexo>nor will there in the near future
17:51<@Yexo>so there are no sprites needed for it right now
17:51<frosch123>are there ogfx+bridges?
17:51<@Yexo>nml doesn't support bridges yet :p
17:51<supermop_>if someone draws bridges does that help nudge it along?
17:51<@Yexo>not really
17:52<frosch123>i think the tubular bridge was one of the first 32bpp sprites in ottd using alpha
17:52<supermop_>and what would be desired for '+' bridges
17:52<frosch123>but i think it was never really released
17:52<supermop_>ogfx+ ideally would add to, not replace default bridges
17:53<supermop_>but currently we do not have a 'bridge types' feature
17:53<frosch123>that's still not possible :)
17:53<frosch123>since most stuff in ogfx+vehicles is company coloured, i guess you might improve it most by adding an alpha channel
17:53<supermop_>so it seems like ogfx+ bridges is more dependent on allowing more bridges in ottd than allowing brides in nml
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17:54<frosch123>supermop_: with ogfx+bridges i meant adding real transparency for the covered bridges
17:57<supermop_>for a glass bridge?
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17:57<frosch123>the tubular bridges
17:58<frosch123>the catenary might also profit from some anti-aliasing
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18:16<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: have any references of prussian freight cars handy?
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>other than the ones i posted into the ticket?
18:17<Elukka>the DRG one?
18:17<Eddi|zuHause>the only thing that i know for sure is that the colour practically never changed
18:17<Elukka>would they have had the same colo- oh okay
18:18<Elukka>it turns out a 3 lu wagon looks kinda weird
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>other than tank wagons, which were privately owned and had no universal colour scheme, and refrigerated wagons, which were usually white
18:19<Elukka>what do you want me to color the tank cars?
18:19<Elukka>a bunch of different color schemes could be interesting
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>yellow is a good start
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>or gray
18:25<Elukka>started that last night
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18:25<weirdy>I have another question
18:26<Elukka>based on
18:27<weirdy>What's the best way to play a game with multiple companies?
18:28<supermop_>add an idle ai and cheat to switch between them?
18:28<Elukka>and also a 3 axle compartment coach... a lot of copypasting from the 4 axle ones :P
18:28<supermop_>im doing that at the moment
18:28<weirdy>Wouldn't a server be better?
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>that looks pretty good
18:29<supermop_>if you want to play with other people, yes
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>use IdleAI and the company cheat, or start a local multiplayer game and use the company menu to switch companies
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19:18<Elukka>maglev trams? :P
19:20<V453000>trams? :D
19:21<appe>maglev :D
19:21<Elukka>berlin had some too
19:21<appe>judging by the cars, thats not yesterday
19:22<Elukka>shanghai has a slightly better one
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19:37<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: that M-Bahn was more a subway-replacement than a tram-replacement
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19:38<Elukka>well, some sort of city transit
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>it kinda fell victim to the reunification
19:39<Eddi|zuHause>part of the testing track was on a discontinued subway line, which had to be reopened. and it was considered too expensive to convert the whole network
19:41<Elukka>i suppose all that technology was/is still more expensive than the maintenance of traditional rail vehicles
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19:52<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if you noticed this, but berlin is hopelessly out of money. like they had banks bursting 10 years before they burst in the rest of the world...
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21:00<Monarch1st>hi - anyone on tonite?
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21:16<Monarch1st>got a question about a terminal station setup. do you have experience?
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21:16<Elukka>only a bit!
21:16<Monarch1st>well, you probably have more than me anyway
21:17<Monarch1st>i set up an 'advanced 4-bay terminal' station
21:17<Monarch1st>about 2/3 the way down the page
21:18<Elukka>hmm, i've kept mine simpler :P
21:18<Monarch1st>the problem is, the 3rd bay gets trains coming into it even if it is full
21:19<Monarch1st>yeah, i used to have it simpler, but the city it serves is much too big now
21:20<Elukka>hmm presignals (and maybe path singnals) should do it
21:20<Elukka>i ran this last i played
21:20<Elukka>easier to build, uses much less space, though probably less efficient
21:22<Monarch1st>good night thats complicated. and the advantage of this one is exiting trains dont interfere with entering ones.
21:23<Monarch1st>and its only one-sided. i could put a ro-ro station in, but i'd have to destroy half the city to do it
21:23<Monarch1st>do you know signals in-depth? seems to me the problem is the first signal to the right after the primary pre-signal after the entry bridge
21:25<Monarch1st>i've tried a vertical-light signal, which is what it looks like in the wiki and causes this problem, and also horizontal-light signal which has its own problems
21:26<@Yexo>Monarch1st: it's a lot easier if you use path signals
21:26<@Yexo>just put a single path signal in front of the junction and no signals afterwards
21:27<Monarch1st>hmm. ok. not familiar with path signals at all. i pull out this game about once a year and they're new since i last played. are they complicated? i haven't even mastered pre-signals yet
21:27<Elukka>path signals are the most
21:27<Elukka>*most foolproof ones
21:27<@Yexo>if you want to use presignals the last signal before each platform should be an exit signal. The signal in front of the junction should be a presignal, all signals in between should be combo-signals
21:27<@Yexo>path signals are easier and if you use them you don't need any presignals at all
21:27<Elukka>the rule of thumb these days is you use path signals everywhere unless you have a specific reason for using something else
21:27<@Yexo>unless you go for really advanced builds
21:28<Monarch1st>ah, combo signals. how are they built? one-click is entry, right? two-clicks is exit? is three-clicks combo?
21:29<Elukka>because my station uses path singnals, more than one train can enter and exit the station as long as their paths don't intersect
21:29<Elukka>even though it's the same signal block
21:29<@Yexo>Monarch1st: yes
21:30<@Yexo>the example image uses two-way signals where it should use one-way ones
21:31<Monarch1st>cool. i'll try the combo now while I read up on path. but before i start, can someone give me a one or two sentence idea what path signals are so i can hang the rest of my reading on?
21:31<@Yexo>"let the trains figure it all out"
21:32<Monarch1st>that would be the goal, yes, but doesn't help me define what path signals are. that's how i think that pre-signals are as well
21:32<@Yexo>from the wiki: "There are two things you should know about this signal:
21:32<@Yexo> Place it only where trains can stop and wait without blocking junctions ;
21:32<@Yexo> This signal only works in one direction. In the other direction, it is either ignored or considered a one-way signal, depending on the signal path (see below). "
21:34<Monarch1st>ok, but how does it differe from pre-signals?
21:36<Monarch1st>(cool-the combo signal seems to work. its actually efficient now! excellent)
21:40<Monarch1st>since it works, i'll go read up on path signals. and mark the wiki page.
21:40<Monarch1st>thanks all!
21:40<Elukka>"They act differently from block signals, in that they will allow more than one train to enter a signal block if they’re definitely not going to collide. On a straight bit of track, this means they act pretty much like block signals.
21:40<Elukka>If there’s a complicated patch of track (two ways in, two ways out, for example) and two trains won’t use the same bit of track, they’ll show clear and let them both through at the same time."
21:40<Monarch1st>ah. that helps. nice. very nice! thanks
21:41<Elukka>they're really just better
21:41<Monarch1st>does sound like it
21:43<Elukka>in most situations they'll do the job of presignals too
21:44<Elukka>and suppose you have a basic 2 track line with an X shaped switch between them
21:44<Elukka>it'll let trains pass on the two lines if they're not going to cross to the other
21:44<Elukka>block signals won't
21:45<Monarch1st>that would be very nice. i've had that happen in long double-tracked lines
21:45<Monarch1st>when would they *not* replace pre-signals?
21:47<Elukka>i dunno, i just hear some people still use them somewhere :P
21:48<Monarch1st>ha! i've got reading then
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 08 00:00:26 2011