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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-08

---Logopened Sat Oct 08 00:00:26 2011
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01:25<@planetmaker>moin
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02:34<pikka>mentlegen
02:35<@planetmaker>hi pikka
02:35<pikka>hello planetmaker
02:36<pikka>wie gehrts
02:36<@planetmaker>och, ganz gut. Und selbst? :-)
02:37<pikka>bored at work. pretty much the only time I come on here... D;
02:37<@planetmaker>:-D
02:37<@planetmaker>don't sprite and drive! ;-)
02:38<pikka>yes!
02:38<pikka>I'm obviously not actually driving at the minute. :p
02:38<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
02:39<@planetmaker>Something I wondered about the other but didn't follow up whatsoever: do you still have sprites for water planes?
02:39<pikka>did you see my feature request on flysp? :D
02:39<pikka>yes I do
02:39<@planetmaker>iirc it should or could be feasible to already modify an existing airport such that it becomes a water airport
02:40<@planetmaker>uhm, no, not that I remember that FS task, but... :-)
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02:40<pikka>there will be two water planes in av8 2.0, in fact
02:40<@planetmaker>planes so far could not distinguish it, yes, but... might be nice for those who know where to send which plan :-)
02:40<@planetmaker>which FS task?
02:40<pikka>one added today
02:40<pikka>something about inflation...
02:41<@planetmaker>oh
02:41<@planetmaker>no, hadn't seen it
02:41<@planetmaker>sounds feasible to me
02:42<pikka>:D
02:42<@planetmaker>but it'd need others to (also) agree
02:42<pikka>yes
02:42<@planetmaker>which are all still asleep :-P
02:42<@planetmaker>8:40 on Saturday ;-)
02:42<pikka>lazy people. :)
02:42<@planetmaker>tsk!
02:43<pikka>:)
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02:43<pikka>well, Saturday is Monday for me
02:43<pikka>aww
02:44<pikka>two rather underdressed young lasses just asked if I was their bus, and sadly I wasn't. :)
02:45<@planetmaker>:-D
02:46<@planetmaker>"underdressed". Nice word :-)
02:46*planetmaker wonders how pikka looks like with 4 wheels etc... a nephew of thomas the tank engine? ;-)
02:47<pikka>:D
02:47<pikka>ok, if my bus was their bus.
02:47<pikka>and it has 6 wheels!
02:47<@planetmaker>scnr ... hehe :-)
02:48<@planetmaker>but so it's not an articulated bus :-)
02:48<pikka>it has two axles but 6 wheels
02:48<pikka>there are 4 wheels on the rear axle
02:50<@planetmaker>yeah, most busses here (of those which are not articulated), have also 6 :-)
02:50<pikka>btbuses.info/index.php?GoTo=bus&find=1332&searching=yes to be precise
02:51<@planetmaker>looks very familiar except for the colouring :-)
02:51<pikka>we also have tag buses, which have 8 wheels on 3 axles, and artics which have 10 wheels on 3 axles. :)
02:53<@planetmaker>hm... :-) 8 wheels on 3 axis only?
02:54<pikka>steering axle at front with 2, drive axle with 4, another steering with 2. :)
02:55<@planetmaker>I wonder whether I've seen such bus already. Maybe I just don't recall
02:55<@planetmaker>and our local traffic company has no vehicle images :S
02:55<@planetmaker>except for the old trams which one can rent: http://www.braunschweiger-verkehrs-ag.de/downloads/flyer_feiern.pdf
02:56<pikka>ok! time to go! :o
02:56<@planetmaker>enjoy, pikka! :-)
03:02<@peter1138>ohhh
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03:17<pikka>ohhhhhh
03:17<pikka>hello peter
03:18<@peter1138>hello pikka <3
03:21<@Terkhen>good morning
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04:55<ZirconiumX>Hello everyone.
04:55<ZirconiumX>I found out what the problem was.
04:55<ZirconiumX>Profile guided optimization
04:55<ZirconiumX>the checksum appers to have been wrong
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06:10<@planetmaker>hm... google home view :-D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMFBuHsKXb0
06:11<@peter1138>heh
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07:11<Wolf01>hello
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07:17<Pikka>what new sorcery is this?
07:18<@planetmaker>the difference between empty and full mouth?
07:19<@peter1138>hm
07:20<@peter1138>our gui scaling sucks :p
07:20<@peter1138>i mean, it's really good
07:20<@peter1138>way better than it wa
07:20<@peter1138>+s
07:20<@peter1138>but i'm trying to improve it :D
07:21<@planetmaker>it still has many rough edges, esp. when used with bigGUI grf
07:21<@peter1138>that's what i'm working with indeed
07:22<@planetmaker>:-)
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07:58<@peter1138>i want to avoid getting sprite sizes everywhere
07:58<@peter1138>which is currently what would be needed
07:58<@peter1138>some things assign *size directly, which thus ignores the minimum size
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08:49<andythenorth>hola
08:51<Pikka>bonsoir
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08:58<andythenorth>monsieur le Pikka
08:58<andythenorth>tres bon
08:58<andythenorth>seulement anglais ici?
08:58<Pikka>nein
08:58<andythenorth>espanol?
08:58<Pikka>oui
08:58<andythenorth>hinglish?
08:59<Pikka>hmaybe
08:59<andythenorth>innit
08:59<Pikka>innit though?
08:59*andythenorth is pondering more lego trains, with more motors
08:59<andythenorth>I had put them all away, but now the toddler likes them
08:59<Pikka>oops
09:00<andythenorth>his opinion is that 'more wagons is better'
09:00<andythenorth>Terkhen:
09:00<andythenorth>hola
09:00<andythenorth>rv-wagons? :P :| :( :D
09:01<andythenorth>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=47033&start=80
09:01<@Terkhen>andythenorth: currently I'm reworking subsidies
09:01<andythenorth>:D
09:01<andythenorth>that won't help get big trucks into the game, but well done :)
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09:04<@Terkhen>rv-wagons feels like too complex for what we would get
09:05<Pikka>I've seen some interesting trucks in the city recently
09:05<andythenorth>hmm
09:06<Pikka>they're refurbishing one of the skyscrapers, which includes taking apart a massive concrete raised garden outside the front of it
09:06<andythenorth>Terkhen: how about handling it via an improved system for refits instead?
09:06<andythenorth>refitting to a certain length isn't optimal, but it's not bad
09:06<@Terkhen>improved how?
09:06<@Terkhen>to solve the autorenew/autoreplace issue?
09:07<andythenorth>among other things
09:07<andythenorth>also the length of the menu
09:07<andythenorth>lets say I have a truck that has 1-4 trailers
09:07<@Terkhen>length should be fixed IIRC
09:07<andythenorth>and 31 cargos in the game
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>http://truckin24.de/fmbf/18.%20LKW%20-%20Modelle/01.%20Kaelble%20mit%20Culemeyer/Forumbilder/03.%20Kaelble%20mit%20Culemeyer%20%28Medium%29.jpg <-- i want RV wagons :)
09:08<Kogut>@Terkhen What will be changed?
09:09<andythenorth>that means maybe 124 menu entries :
09:09<andythenorth>:)
09:09<@Alberth>Kogut: nobody knows
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09:09<@Terkhen>Kogut: http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Cargos#Substitute_type_and_multiplier_for_town_growth_.2818.2C_19.29
09:09<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: do it the other way around, and you have them :)
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.voba-medien.de/assets/images/DB-X-E94-145-Fahrt-Culemeyer-CB-ZP-800-470.jpg <- "what is wrong with this picture" :p
09:10<andythenorth>in a pathological case, I could also allow livery refits....
09:10<andythenorth>for 1CC and 2CC
09:11<andythenorth>so 248 menu entries...
09:11<@Terkhen>andythenorth: do you mean entries in the refit menu?
09:11<andythenorth>yes
09:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the only thing wrong with that picture is that I don't have the lego parts to build that engine yet
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>well... split the refit gui
09:11<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: movable tracks? :p
09:11<@Terkhen>the split refit gui would solve that
09:11<andythenorth>+1
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09:19<andythenorth>Terkhen: was the interaction between partial refit and cargo subtypes really horrible to deal with? I just tried to figure it out...
09:20<@Terkhen>I'm not sure what you mean
09:20<@Terkhen>partial refit had a problem with articulated vehicles
09:21<andythenorth>that's what I mean
09:22<@Terkhen>the problem is that NewGRF vehicles do not expect their articulated parts to have different cargos or cargo subtypes
09:23<@Terkhen>I don't remember the details, frosch123 explained the problem to me and IIRC it is in the thread too
09:23<andythenorth>that's what I was trying to puzzle out
09:24<andythenorth>I am bored of waiting for a truck set and thinking I should start one soon
09:24<andythenorth>but without rv-wagons or better refits, truck sets suck
09:27<@Terkhen>refitting articulated parts separatedly can't happen without (IIRC) big changes to the specs, so it is not going to happen
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09:45<@planetmaker>Kogot: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=974719#p974719 <-- that's not appreciated
09:45<@planetmaker>Kogut: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=974719#p974719 <-- that's not appreciated
09:45<andythenorth>Pikka: I can haz testing
09:47<Kogut>@planetmaker - OK, I switched to "Lorem ipsum"
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause>does nml do constant-folding on "a=b" expressions yet?
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10:04<andythenorth>Pikka: elvis rocks
10:05<andythenorth>how amusing :)
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10:05<Elukka>i went exploring some abandoned industrial spurs today
10:06<Elukka>somehow it's a mix of finnish, british, and maybe belgian rail
10:06<Elukka>some of it pretty old
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think i'm getting crazy...
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>i'm changing code
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>but whatever i try, it always behaves the same way it did before...
10:08<z-MaTRiX>hii
10:08<z-MaTRiX>:)
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>that typically means i'm changing the wrong line...
10:18<@Alberth>or a file in the wrong copy :)
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, i now have the right sprite in the purchase menu ;)
10:21<@planetmaker>great :-)
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i still have problems with dependencies not honoured properly
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the only thing that works is changing generate.py
10:24<Pikka>glad you like it, andy
10:24<@planetmaker>you're doing something entirely different than me.
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but neither any of the pnml file nor any other py file
10:24<@planetmaker>i.e it works as it should when I touch a pnml file
10:25<@planetmaker>the other py files... are probably not added anywhere to the deps
10:25<@planetmaker>they're customly added and need of course adding to deps separately
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10:25<Eddi|zuHause>hm, ok
10:25<@planetmaker>that is not nor can be made automatic
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10:25<@planetmaker>Makefile.in could contain that dep(s)
10:26<@planetmaker>result: script.py
10:26<@planetmaker>lines like that will add the dependency
10:26<@planetmaker>if it is not given already by a rule itself
10:28*planetmaker looks
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>so i put this line in there:
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>scripts/generate.py: scripts/tree.py scripts/rules.py scripts/tokens.py
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>or better:
10:29<@planetmaker>if generate.py needs changing when one of the three changes: yes
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>scripts/generate.py: scripts/*.py
10:29<@planetmaker>no
10:29<@planetmaker>that's invalid
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>generate needs re-executing when any of these files change
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>they're submodules
10:30<@planetmaker>but then the *result_file* of generate.py should depend on the other *.py
10:30<@planetmaker>not generate.py
10:30<@planetmaker>as generate.py would otherwise be re-build.
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>but that means duplicating
10:31<@planetmaker>no
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>can i put like
10:31<@planetmaker>which file is generated by generate.py?
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>GENERATE=scripts/generate.py scripts/tree.py scripts/rules.py scripts/tokens.py
10:31<@planetmaker>or files
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>and then replace other occurances of scripts/generate.py by $GENERATE
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>it currently appears twice
10:32<@planetmaker>$(GENERATE) != $GENERATE
10:32<@planetmaker>you want $(GENERATE)
10:32<@planetmaker>but yes, you can do that
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>for engines.gnml and for *.lng
10:33<@planetmaker>I'll run a few more tests
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10:35<Eddi|zuHause>ok, i'll commit this then
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10:39<@planetmaker>I'm not sure whether the 3rd occurance of generate.py which you ommited shouldn't be removed completely
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>hm, yeah, that looks redundant
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>so redundant that i didn't even see it
10:40<@planetmaker>hide it in another commit ;-)
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10:41<appe>http://meyerweb.com/bkkt/chew.gif
10:42<appe>= me playing openttd :(
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>you look eerily like bill murray
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10:47*ZirconiumX hate Xcode's fancy autocomplete mode
10:47<ZirconiumX>*hates
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11:17*andythenorth needs some help figuring out trucks and refits
11:17<andythenorth>is there a gameplay case that partial refitting of RVs would be useful?
11:18<andythenorth>e.g. truck with two trailers, one liverstock, one milk?
11:18<supermop>yes
11:18<andythenorth>what's the case? Is it really essential?
11:18<supermop>generic box truck carrying various goods/supplies
11:18<andythenorth>(as it's not possible...probably )
11:18<supermop>nope
11:18*ZirconiumX agrees - but has not got the faintest idea what he's on about
11:19<supermop>just cute for little city vans and trucks
11:19<supermop>passenger car carrying one engineering supply in the trunk
11:19<supermop>and four miners up front
11:20<andythenorth>that's strictly two cargos on one vehicle.
11:20<andythenorth>not going to happen :)
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11:21<supermop>my subaru had a shadow
11:23<supermop>why do you bring it up, andy?
11:23<@Terkhen>because of rv-wagons
11:23<@Terkhen>:P
11:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the cases where i usually need that are e.g transferring from seaport to factory
11:24<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: putting passengers and ENSP into one (articulated) vehicle is actually pretty easy
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>the two articulated parts must have distinct cargo refit lists
11:25<supermop>like a little blue impreza?
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>like an ET87 with two passenger steering cars and an engine with mail compartment
11:28<supermop>if its possible might as well do it, but i am not sure how much i would need it apart from the novelty factor
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>the ET87 in CETS can carry 100 passengers and 20 mail/10 goods/5 food
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>the 100 passengers stays constant during refitting, and mai/goods/food you can refit freely
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>(also alcohol, milk and fruit)
11:31<supermop>so i was playing with aircraft last night, for the first time since tto
11:31<supermop>i was losing one every 3 trips about
11:31<supermop>and that is small planes at large airports
11:31<@planetmaker>don't send the big ones to a small airport
11:32<supermop>see above
11:32<@planetmaker>:-)
11:32<appe>http://open.spotify.com/track/1VQScHymoizrTmyKZ9lNMp <-
11:32<supermop>i was using pikkas set, and sticking to only the planes that said 'small' as i had very low passenger volume
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>you can turn off crashes
11:34<supermop>yeah?
11:34<supermop>i changed the thing in the cheat menu but it did not seem to help
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>no, not that one
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>there's another setting for "regular" crashes
11:35<supermop>hmm
11:35<supermop>in advanced settings?
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>yes
11:36<supermop>ok il take a look when i get home
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11:43<openot>hello, need tip for the beginner
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11:45<openot>i want to play with ai and use some advanced cargo routes
11:45<openot>so i need tip
11:45<LordAro>evening
11:45<openot>hi
11:45<@planetmaker>hi
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>openot: and we're supposed to guess the question?
11:48<openot>it's like that i can download from online content so i can start playing like beginner?
11:48-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1C09B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:49<Kogut>yes
11:49<Kogut>most ais are not very impressive
11:49<openot>like i download game 10 min ago, found i need select some ai, some newgrf for more interesting routines and so on
11:50<openot>but there are tons of everything in online to download
11:50<Kogut>you can try game or two without newgrfs
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>AIs are automatically used after downloading, GRFs you have to activate after downloading in the NewGRF settings (but not all at once!)
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>many GRFs make stuff more complicated, so they're probably not suited for a beginner
11:51<Kogut>especially train/industry newgrfs
11:52<openot>maybe i can use some scenario for beginners and it's will contain grf and ai by itself?
11:52<@Alberth>hi LordAro
11:52<@Alberth>openot: I don't think there is much specially aimed at beginners
11:53<@Alberth>openot: Did you play TTD in the past, as most beginners are fine with playing without additions.
11:53<@planetmaker>openot: just take a random AI and a random map and you should be good
11:53<@Alberth>?
11:54<openot>ok, what AI is good to play with (by your opinion)?
11:54<@Alberth>depends on what you expectations from it. Personally, I always play without opponents
11:55<@Alberth>SimpleAI aims to mimic the old AI, there are also competitive AIs. There is a list of AIs at the wiki somewhere
11:55<Kogut>I suggest NoCab or AdmiralAI
11:55<LordAro>hi Alberth
11:56<openot>ok thanks
11:56<Kogut>http://wiki.openttd.org/Comparison_of_AIs
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>openot: just take all AIs, and let the game randomly choose them
11:57<openot>oh, it's better with wiki :)
11:57*Alberth wonders how to do such a thing with NewGRFs as well :p
11:57<@Alberth>openot: yep, there is much information there
11:58<@planetmaker>Alberth: via presets
11:58<@Alberth>"let the game randomly choose them"? :p
11:58<@planetmaker>though presets currently have one big backdraw: they store the version of the newgrfs. which usually is not what I want
12:01<@Alberth>we need newgrf dependency resolving, so I can load a newgrf and it automagically loads other ones that i need and like
12:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: there are two problems with your suggestion for the two-part articulated RV solution
12:03<andythenorth>1. partial refit won't work, that's not bad in the case where lead vehicle is PAX-only, but fails for other cases
12:04<andythenorth>2. can't use drive-into roadstops
12:04<andythenorth>I am trying to figure out which would be the most sane route of these 3, for a truck set
12:05<andythenorth>1. code it as per current spec allows, with each truck just having one trailer, or a fixed number, or very limited refits (like HEQS trams)
12:05<andythenorth>2. rv-wagons
12:05<andythenorth>3. don't do it
12:06<@Alberth>4. use lego instead
12:07<andythenorth>it's frustrating but totally resolvable
12:07<andythenorth>rv-wagons would entirely solve it
12:07<andythenorth>or a careful implementation using refits would be workable, with a few nasty pitfalls
12:08<andythenorth>a nasty case is trucks that carry cargo and can haul trailers
12:09<andythenorth>it's desirable to be able to route them to drive-into stops
12:09<andythenorth>hmm
12:09<andythenorth>perhaps that's what needs to be dropped
12:10<andythenorth>who uses drive-into stations? For example, with HEQS, does anyone rely on routing the Mogs to those stops?
12:10<supermop>ive been using them lately actually
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: offer the truck separately with trailer and without?
12:11<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that's not horrible, but not at all nice
12:11<andythenorth>it makes the buy menu suck
12:11<andythenorth>I like egrvts, but the buy menu is way overcrowded
12:11<openot>sorry, am i right, using ECS Basic(and other) vectors i'll get more advanced industries?
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>openot: yes, but they are very difficult
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12:13<openot>i already play something like this with tddpatch few years ago
12:13<@Alberth>FIRS is another industry set
12:14<andythenorth>FIAIS
12:14<andythenorth>FIAIS Is Another Industry Set
12:14<andythenorth>I'm bored of FIRS
12:15<andythenorth>I'm starting again from scratch
12:16<@Alberth>:o
12:18<Kogut>!
12:18<openot>firs is in online content, - ok will try
12:19<andythenorth>openot: get the latest beta release, it's way better
12:19<andythenorth>I'll find a link
12:20<andythenorth>openot: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/0.7.0-beta1/
12:20<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but that won't work if he's playing stable
12:20<andythenorth>oh yes
12:20<andythenorth>how sad
12:22<@planetmaker>damn new technology ;-)
12:22<andythenorth>should do it Chrome style
12:22<andythenorth>no 'stable'
12:22<@peter1138>OpenTTD 12.1.0.362
12:22<andythenorth>well kind of
12:22<@Alberth>everybody compiles trunk :)
12:22<andythenorth>everybody compiles about 1 week behind trunk
12:23<andythenorth>except for critical security failures
12:23<andythenorth>how many critical security issues has ottd had?
12:23<andythenorth>anything that could get your box owned?
12:23<@planetmaker>the box? difficult
12:23<@planetmaker>but maybe two, three
12:23<Eddi|zuHause>call it 11.10.9.2000
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12:24<andythenorth>https://plus.google.com/105636695715347097518/posts/G9hbCEMC2wF
12:25<andythenorth>"The idea was to give people a blank window with an autoupdater. If they installed that, over time the blank window would grow into a browser"
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>there have been several CVEs
12:27<@planetmaker>sure. But not all qualify as "take over the computer remotely"
12:31<Ammler>andythenorth: you like how chrome does it?
12:32<andythenorth>Ammler: I have no idea
12:32<andythenorth>I have chrome
12:32<andythenorth>I don't notice it doing anything
12:34<Ammler>might be a good way for a single user system
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>we should separate the game engine from the gui, and in multiplayer synchronize it like newgrfs
12:40<Ammler>what I hate on chrome was that it tells me how to browse the internet, I need to be able to rule that myself, so chrome survived around 5 mins on my pc
12:41*andythenorth didn't notice
12:41<andythenorth>chrome is my minor browser
12:41<andythenorth>it's basically a GUI client for google docs and twitter
12:41<andythenorth>I don't browse with it
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>(that may also facilitate ingame update)
12:41<Ammler>ah ok
12:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: is it realistic to separate game and gui?
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12:43<Ammler>well, openttd would also need to be able to connect with different versions
12:43<@Alberth>with separation you only have one game engine :)
12:43<Ammler>else you will have a big mess with autoupdate and multiplayer
12:43<supermop>which is your major browser?
12:44<andythenorth>supermop: safari, which is stupid
12:44<andythenorth>it memory leaks nearly as bad as ff
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: no, why? you'll have multiple game engines in downloaded_content, and if none of those matches the server you are joining, you download another
12:45<supermop>i use opera, but i think just out of iconoclasm
12:45<openot>FIRS looks like fun!
12:45<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: well, what would be the engine? Current openttd binary?
12:46<Ammler>so you need to download 3MB almost everytime you join a server
12:46<Ammler>because it most probably has a nother version
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not seeing the problem
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>might want to introduce some kind of delta to the latest stable
12:49<Ammler>there would still be something like a "latest stable"?
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>sure
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>if only to mark a reference point for the deltas
12:52<@Alberth>my package manager computes and downloads binary deltas all by itself already
12:52<Ammler>I disabled that here
12:53<Ammler>I think, it is faster to download teh whole package than applying deltas ;-)
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12:54<Ammler>there should be something like a min-size for delta packages
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13:02<Ammler>majonaise
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13:08<Eddi|zuHause>"schranke"
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13:24<Kogut>Ooo, somebody changed graphs, now it it is possible to notice all colours
13:25<Kogut>now we only need extending coverage to 100 years
13:31<Rubidium>Ammler: it can't be the current binary; you really won't fancy a S390 binary on your x86 machine
13:32<Rubidium>the only solution I see is using some sort of intermediate language for the core
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13:59<@Alberth>jvm!
14:02<@peter1138>openttd in java?
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14:19<appe>bill o rielly is a got damn terrorist.
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15:00<andythenorth>he
15:00<andythenorth>giant airports
15:00<supermop_>how giant?
15:00<andythenorth>in the ottd dev forum
15:00<andythenorth>*big*
15:00<supermop_>just got back from lunch on a different computer, coworker is hogging the desk with the imac
15:00<supermop_>ok ill check it
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15:01<b_jonas>link?
15:02<b_jonas>ah: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=56933&p=974793&hilit=airport#p974793
15:04<supermop_>hmm not how i'd lay them out but impressive
15:08<b_jonas>the circle one seems unrealistic. how do people and cargo get there?
15:09<@Alberth>by underground metro
15:09<b_jonas>Alberth: no way. people want to park there.
15:10<@Alberth>but.. they don't even park in city centers
15:11<b_jonas>they do, here :-)
15:14<supermop_>park on the tarmac
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: how do we want to handle company-specific livery?
15:22<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: e.g. take the E94, after 1950, there are 3 different liveries to choose from: DB (green, black wheels), DR (green, red wheels) and ÖBB (red, black wheels)
15:22<@planetmaker>I assume a simple recolour won't do for the many different companies?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>i'd assume separate images
15:23<@planetmaker>as the pattern would have to differ
15:23<@planetmaker>so, ^^ that's with the different patterns the colouring would have to have the only option
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>but i need some way to technically distinguish that for different parameter settings
15:24<@planetmaker>uhm... how do you mean?
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>i mean the varaction2 check
15:24<Eddi|zuHause>for when someone has "mix", "core DB", "core ALL" or stuff selected
15:25<@planetmaker>what livery would an engine get if "core all" is selected and it could have DB or DR livery concurrently?
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>for example
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>random?
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>DB trumps all?
15:26<@planetmaker>livery refit?
15:26<@planetmaker>with initial random selection?
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>livery refit is tricky for engines
15:26<@planetmaker>yes... :S
15:26<@planetmaker>then random
15:27<@planetmaker>otherwise one could have selected a branch
15:28<@planetmaker>alternatively one could introduce yet another parameter. But I'm not sure I'd like that
15:28<@planetmaker>like "preferred livery"
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>hm. so in the tracking table we write like "epoch3:(DB:img1,DR:img2,ÖBB:img3)", and depending on parameter we make different switches
15:29<@planetmaker>sounds like the way to go
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>i think i can work with that...
15:30<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: how are livery changes not by epoch but by date handled?
15:31<@planetmaker>i.e. the re-colouring of IR to IC or so
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: currently i have put date_of_last_service, but we could introduce a parameter for "recolour liveries: {immediately, on service, on purchase}
15:31<@planetmaker>or do we just move that to epoch changes?
15:32<@planetmaker>ah. yes, good. date_of_last_service is excellent
15:32<@planetmaker>more parameters there are for later to keep people happy then
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>it just won't be possible to recolour anything before 1920
15:33<@planetmaker>and far in the future
15:33<@planetmaker>I thought of adding a new var which counts from 0
15:33<@planetmaker>as this 1920 base kinda sucks in this respect
15:34<@planetmaker>I guess I should actually write that patch :-P
15:34<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't found any reason yet why before 1920 is needed, but go ahead :)
15:35<@planetmaker>prussia, saxony or so?
15:35<@planetmaker>but it also fails for games which last long
15:35<@planetmaker>though this concept to automatically change on service for this time interval is also ok. indeed
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15:36<Eddi|zuHause>as long as nml can transparently detect by context, whether date() macros have to expand to 1920-based or 0-based, i'm fine with it
15:36<@planetmaker>not sure they can
15:37<@planetmaker>but possibly
15:39-!-beboj_ [~beboj@79.138.189.224.bredband.tre.se] has joined #openttd
15:39<beboj_>hi
15:40<beboj_>is it possible to play via android
15:40<beboj_>multiplayer
15:40<beboj_>?
15:40<@Alberth>nope, not even single player
15:40<beboj_>single is possible
15:40<beboj_>pelya ported it
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>beboj_: that port has not been done by us, so we don't know
15:41<@Alberth>maybe you should ask pelya
15:41<beboj_>kk
15:41<b_jonas>how large a display do you have for your android device?
15:42<beboj_>7"
15:42<beboj_>its very nice
15:45<PeanutHorst>... damn, i read that in the wrong order
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15:54<@Alberth>PeanutHorst: chats usually don't top-post :)
15:55<@Terkhen>hmmm... those airports are really huge
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>realistic airports would be 256 tiles
15:58<@Terkhen>:P
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>damn... forgot to put "" around it... i do that always...
16:04<andythenorth>hmm
16:04<andythenorth>truck set - is that even on enough wish lists?
16:04<andythenorth>or is it kind of done?
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: nobody has sensible truck sets... eGRVTS is weird, GermanRV is "under development" for years, ...
16:05<supermop_>long trucks are too long
16:05<andythenorth>why is egrvts weird?
16:05<supermop_>i like it
16:06<andythenorth>I ask so I can avoid 'weird'
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: for example it doesn't allow me to turn on "only horse-drawn vehicles" or "only trucks"
16:06<andythenorth>v2 might
16:06<andythenorth>did you request it? :)
16:06<supermop_>id prefer a few tweaks though - not a fan of every late game tram being 4 cars long and 2 floors
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>i really haven'T actually played with it more than 2 years :)
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i'm pretty sure i did request it :p
16:07<andythenorth>I use it in nearly every game
16:07<supermop_>didn't 404 drawn new busses for it?
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16:07<andythenorth>but because it's 'generic', it does feel 'generic'
16:07<andythenorth>can't complain about that, it's what it says on the box :P
16:07<supermop_>i like the concept of 2-3 types of vehicle in each generation
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>i'd much rather prefer a "european truck set" based on real trucks
16:07<supermop_>i think that is something to strive for
16:10<andythenorth>world trucks is quite easy
16:10<andythenorth>I can figure out how to do world trucks, and allow segmentation into regions to suit the current game
16:11<supermop_>didn't you start a truck set a couple years ago?
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>the "progress" on this page doesn't look promising at all: http://uwe.s2000.at/ttdx/germanrv/current.php?lang=en
16:11<andythenorth>I have the name :P
16:11<andythenorth>what I can't figure out is how to make building trucks a good experience
16:11<andythenorth>basically building RVs can suck. Building trains does not
16:11<supermop_>i think 2cc set is aiming to have regions
16:11<supermop_>id say dont over thing it, keep it simple
16:12<supermop_>no need to include every american semi release in 2008, etc
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>when basing on real trucks, you'll have lots of overlapping models with similar timeframe and similar stats
16:12<PeanutHorst>i wish i could model in blender
16:12<supermop_>stick to the egrvts model, for each era and region a few distinct types
16:12<PeanutHorst>i havi have many ideas for train negrfs
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16:13<supermop_>if scania and mercedes made two models essentially the same, pick the better looking one
16:13<Kogut>eGRVTS is way too blury/cartoonish/ugly/unrealistic/generic/strange
16:13<andythenorth>trucks are remarkably easy
16:13<andythenorth>most european cabover trucks will look identical at ttd scale
16:13<supermop_>i like the cartoonish part - doesnt distract me from the train
16:14<andythenorth>most US conventional trucks will look identical at ttd scale
16:14<supermop_>yep
16:14<andythenorth>australia uses european and us trucks
16:14<andythenorth>as does south america and africa
16:14<TWerkhoven[l]>and roadtrains
16:14<Kogut>I really like german vehicles
16:14<supermop_>japanese trucks are essentially the same but better decorated?
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16:14<Eddi|zuHause>there might be difference in development in western and eastern europe
16:15<supermop_>just have a couple cab types in each generation
16:15<andythenorth>for US trucks, the outline hasn't changed since about 1950
16:15<supermop_>well they are more streamlined - sleeper cabs etc
16:15<supermop_>but at tt scale
16:15<andythenorth>a little yes
16:15<andythenorth>but at tt scale...
16:15<supermop_>not sure if it shows
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>i was once standing and a traffic light, and thought "WTF, japan?" when looking at the truck behind me, until i realized that it was mirrored and said "PL" and not "JP" :p
16:16<supermop_>we do have flush nosed cabs though
16:17<PeanutHorst>i'll flush YOUR nose
16:17<supermop_>just allow lots of vanity running lights on us cabs
16:17<andythenorth>flush nosed?
16:17<supermop_>flat, like a european or japanese truck
16:17<andythenorth>cabover
16:17<supermop_>and volvo makes non flat cabs that they sell in the US
16:18<andythenorth>we have conventionals in europe
16:18<andythenorth>volvo took over white and freightliner iirc
16:18<supermop_>volvo being quite popular here with drivers
16:18<supermop_>freightliner is still a brand
16:18<supermop_>US drivers typically own their cabs
16:18<andythenorth>russian trucks http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/2011/10/on-a-recent-trip-to.html
16:18<supermop_>companies own the trailers
16:19<supermop_>so US style cabs could have random color?
16:21<andythenorth>2CC I would think
16:22<supermop_>but no need to include different brands
16:22<andythenorth>I'll do them like HEQS - made up names
16:22<andythenorth>http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/2011/01/-hi-brian-i-see.html
16:22<andythenorth>^ my favourite ad
16:22<supermop_>also include those tiny cabs they use around ports for moving trailers and containers
16:25-!-LordAro [~lordaro@host217-43-108-215.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:30<supermop_>there should be an industry set comprising pickles, tea, coffee, fish beer, liquor, chocolate,
16:30<supermop_>i guess realistically you'd need hemp, opium, and tobacco in there too
16:30<supermop_>but id be happy to do without those in tt land
16:31<supermop_>salt as a raw material
16:31<andythenorth>supermop: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&rls=en&q=terminal+tractor&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=11753l11753l0l11973l1l1l0l0l0l0l213l213l2-1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.,cf.osb&biw=1132&bih=684&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi
16:32<supermop_>yeah: great for transfers, piglets, etc
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16:47<@Terkhen>good night
16:57<andythenorth>good night
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17:04<Kogut>good night
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17:25<Eddi|zuHause>anyone fluent in python-magic? i need a curried version of a function like f(a,b): return a+b. so i can do g=f(a); h=g(b)
17:27<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: and?
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>"please tell me how to do it"?
17:28<b_jonas>you just write def f(a): \n\tdef g(b):\n\t\treturn a+b\n\treturn g\n
17:30<b_jonas>there's also a shortcut for simpler cases: def f(a): \n\treturn lambda b: a+b
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17:31<b_jonas>you want to create this python function f from python code, (as opposed to from C code), right?
17:34<Eddi|zuHause>hmm... http://docs.python.org/library/functools.html#functools.partial
17:34<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: that, but I personally find the lambda-based solution clearer
17:36<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: like "g = lambda b: f(a,b)"?
17:36<valhallasw>yes
17:36<valhallasw>that has a disadvantage though...
17:36<valhallasw>the value of a is retrieved at time of execution
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>yeah
17:37<valhallasw>so maybe partial /is/ clearer
17:37<__ln__>b_jonas: actually, 4 spaces rather than a tab is the preferred indentation for python.
17:38<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: you know a way to teach kate to do 4-spaces indentation in .py files, and tab in all other files?
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17:44<b_jonas>__ln__: okay
17:46<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: unfortunately not.
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18:47<frosch123>night
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19:45<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-269593-panoV9free-sxny.jpg
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19:59<Wolf01>'night
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20:10<Eddi|zuHause>how come there are so many first-post people on the forum today?
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21:45<Monarch1st>i've got a couple questions if there's anyone here...
21:46<Monarch1st>after loading, a red box pops up that says enable multiple newgrf engine sets - how do i do that?
21:48<Monarch1st>and 2 - are there any engine sets, i guess, that extend further back? i'd like to play with engines around the time of the transcontinental railroad
21:48<Monarch1st>(or even further really but this for now)
21:49<Monarch1st>(say 1830 for the first intercity rail line)
22:11<lugo>there's an advanced setting for that
22:11<lugo>NARS2 starts about 1850 or so
22:18<Monarch1st>(ah, someone!)
22:18<Monarch1st>nars2 - is it in newgrf? i dont remember seeing it
22:20<lugo>yep should be avaulable through online content
22:21<Monarch1st>i dont see a nars2 - is the name expanded in the list perhaps?
22:22<Monarch1st>ah ha - i see a nars1, and a narvw
22:23<Monarch1st>and its probably going to ask to 'enable multiple engine sets'
22:23<Monarch1st>how do i do that?
22:24<lugo>there's an advanced setting for that
22:24<Monarch1st>where is it found?
22:25<lugo>can't remember, there are so many..
22:26<Monarch1st>yeah, i know. hundreds at least
22:32<Monarch1st>ahhh...that might be it
22:33<Monarch1st>nother question if you dont mind - how do you add newgrf files to a savegame?
22:34<Monarch1st>it doesnt look like you can, at least its not obvious in the newgrf settings
22:35<Monarch1st>but i like this map. is there a way to find the seed so i can generate it again?
22:53-!-Azdin [~chatzilla@fw2.yeg.alentus.net] has joined #openttd
22:53<Azdin>Hi
22:53<Azdin>Anyone running any new servers?
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23:02<Monarch1st>i dont think theres anyone else here, at least not that reads it.
23:02<Monarch1st>and i dont know much about new servers
23:02<Monarch1st>do you know some about the newgrf files?
23:04<Monarch1st>let me ask just in case...
23:05<Monarch1st>can do you add newgrf files to a savegame?
23:05<Monarch1st>it doesnt look like you can, at least its not obvious in the newgrf settings
23:05<Monarch1st>but i like this map. is there a way to find the seed so i can generate it again?
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23:36<supermop>hello
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 09 00:00:32 2011