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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-09

---Logopened Sun Oct 09 00:00:32 2011
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05:23<@Terkhen>good morning
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05:36<@Alberth>andy! welcome!
05:37<@planetmaker>oh, and hello Terkhen
05:37<@planetmaker>bonjour, andythenorth
05:37<Eddi|zuHause>soo... how do i do randomness...
05:38<@planetmaker>currently with a random_switch(... )
05:39<@planetmaker>we're somewhat discussing to replace that by a normal switch with variable 5F instead to keep things more in line
05:45<@planetmaker>hm... all those dependencies... conditional whether nml is there or gimp is there... hilarious for opengfx
05:46<@planetmaker>I should introduce a configure script possibly
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07:08<Korenn>any devs / contributors around who could help point me in the right direction?
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>that way ->
07:08<Korenn>I'm writing a patch that adds some town vars, and now I want it to gracefully load older save games
07:08<Korenn>but I have no clue where in the code that stuff is
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>in the saveload/ directory
07:09<Korenn>I've got it saving / loading in the sl_town bit
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>first step is to bump SAVEGAME_VERSION
07:09<Korenn>but not reading old stuff
07:09<Korenn>that's already done ;)
07:10<Korenn>sorry, town_sl.cpp*
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>in the sl_town bit you likely have min version and stuff
07:10<frosch123>the SL_COND_xxx macros take a minimum and maximum savegame version which contain the data
07:10<Korenn>frosch123: I have that for the patch setting itself
07:10<Korenn>does that also work for variables in the Town struct?
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>Korenn: no, that's independent
07:10<Korenn>thought as much
07:10<frosch123>if you need to initialise or convert stuff from old savegames, add that to AfterLoad()
07:11<@Alberth>src/saveload/afterload.cpp, function AfterLoadGame() <-- here you adapt for the new savegame version
07:11<Korenn>but how does it handle loading the old version before?
07:11<frosch123>if you do nothing, everything is zero by default
07:11<Korenn>the old version doesn't match the expected chunk setup
07:11<@Alberth>the version is in the file
07:12<Korenn>yes, I got that ;)
07:12<@Alberth>so it loads the old file with SLD_COND macros that state what's in it
07:12<Korenn>hmmm ok
07:12<b_jonas>how do you figure out how much a factory or refinery really produces? their production is so variable and you only get to see one month's production in the window.
07:12<b_jonas>do you just check it out in several months?
07:12<@Alberth>Korenn: then it calls AfterLoad() where you can change the data to the new version
07:13<Korenn>right. and since zero is fine for my default, I wouldn't need any actual stuff there
07:13<@planetmaker>b_jonas: it really produced that in the last month what it tells you.
07:13<frosch123>b_jonas: build some vehicles, then check the industry directory every few months
07:13<Korenn>I'll go look at the SLD_COND stuff then :)
07:13<frosch123>sort it by "percent transported"
07:13<@planetmaker>so no need to figure out anything...
07:14<b_jonas>planetmaker: yep, but as I bring input to it from far, production varies a lot
07:14<@planetmaker>but yes, you can look each month
07:14<@Alberth>Korenn: it may be useful to look at a changeset where the savegame version got changed as an example
07:15<Korenn>right, I'll go look at the svn logs :)
07:15<Korenn>smart thinking, that
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07:16<@Alberth>Korenn: saveload.cpp has a looooong list of revision numbers :p
07:16<Korenn>yeah, I saw that.
07:17<Korenn>hm, the last one is for the rivers, but that only bumps the savegame version without changing any other saveload stuff. that seems wrong :P
07:18<b_jonas>Korenn: perhaps some new river tiles were added
07:18<@Alberth>Korenn: settings.ini was changed
07:19<Korenn>oh right
07:19<Korenn>and that generates a file
07:19<Korenn>that takes some getting used to :)
07:20<@Alberth>you normally modify the .exe directly?
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>why does that take getting used to? i do that all the time :p
07:24<Korenn>Alberth: oh, haha :P
07:25<Korenn>generating source files isn't exactly the most common of programming practices. So the .ini is not yet on my radar as 'code' :)
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07:25<mib_k7qw7i>Earn free prizes and giftcards at:
07:25<frosch123>@calc 65000 / 22
07:25<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 2954.54545455
07:25<Korenn>w00t works
07:26<Korenn>thanks Alberth, Eddi|zuHause!
07:26<frosch123>hmm, in 2954 years we run out of savegame versions :s
07:26<@Alberth>oh dear
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i thought there was a limit of 256 in the code?
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>(not sure why that is there)
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07:27<@planetmaker>@kbar mib_k7qw7i
07:27<@planetmaker>@kban mib_k7qw7i
07:27-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
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07:28<CIA-2>OpenTTD: frosch * r23013 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Doc: Add a note about the savegame version used in the 1.1 branch.
07:28<frosch123>though we are behind schedule for 1.1.2 :p
07:29<frosch123>only 3 savegame bumps in 1.2.0 so far, while there should be 22 till branching
07:30<Eddi|zuHause>openttd is clearly dying
07:30<@Alberth>@calc 22*6/3
07:30<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 44
07:31<@Alberth>next branch in 44 months :)
07:31<frosch123>@calc 22*8/3
07:31<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 58.6666666667
07:31<frosch123>branching was in february :)
07:32<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I have that idea about the forums, it seems very quiet there, or is it just me?
07:32<frosch123>@calc 19*8/3
07:32<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 50.6666666667
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>we need a solution for the 99km/h problem
07:33<@planetmaker>it's usually around now the most quiet time of the year iirc, Alberth
07:33<@planetmaker>semester just starts / started ;-)
07:33<@Alberth>oh, everybody is hard at work :)
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: there were a bunch of new people in the forum over the past few days
07:34<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: Round(speed/5) * 5
07:34<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: don't display the speed
07:34<@Alberth>it makes no sense anyway
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: it's still displayed in purchase menu and stuff
07:34<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: also Round(power/50) * 50
07:35*Alberth distributes black 'censored' stickers to all
07:35<@planetmaker>hm... how nice. A spammer complained in his spam message about not being able to login into the grfspec wiki
07:35<@planetmaker>I guess: "good so"
07:36<frosch123>[13:30] <Eddi|zuHause> openttd is clearly dying <- otoh we are following the trend. democracy is also dying
07:36<@Alberth>I think he copied some text from another message, eg PaulC
07:36<@planetmaker>yes, clearly
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07:38<@planetmaker>openttd dies... too many developers programme (new)grfs ;-)
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07:44<Korenn>my patch is almost done, and I'm trying to get it to the right code standard. should be interesting enough to poke some people alive ;)
07:44<Korenn>even if it's only to yell 'god no that's awfully coded'
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08:10<andythenorth>Alberth: openttd is clearly dying
08:10<andythenorth>that will always be true, until there's no-one around to say it
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08:11<@Alberth>someone will be here :)
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>in analogy to the "the world ends" prophecies?
08:11<andythenorth>probably just DorpsGek
08:11<andythenorth>just that the destiny of all things that live is to die
08:12<andythenorth>'dying from the day they were born' etc
08:12<andythenorth>every commit is one commit closer to the final commit
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08:13<@planetmaker>and thus world ends. Amen.
08:14<@Alberth>what about pre-birth commits?
08:14<andythenorth>so, is ottd suffering the same forums problem as mature newgrfs?
08:14<andythenorth>i.e. it's pretty good, there's no big bugs, and no big new projects to discuss?
08:15<andythenorth>so there's no discussion
08:15<andythenorth>and most of the issues/ideas that come up can be filed under 'same old crap'
08:15-!-LordAro_ is now known as LordAro
08:16<valhallasw> is not exactly empty
08:17<valhallasw>and probably not really up to date, either
08:18<@Alberth>and contains a lot of stuff that is out of scope of the goal, or useless
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08:20<andythenorth>are there any goals big at the moment really?
08:20<andythenorth>looks like some quiet work is being done on grf-topia
08:20<andythenorth>YACD looks promising, but is quiet
08:20<@planetmaker>yeah :-(
08:20<@planetmaker>and killed cargodist
08:20<andythenorth>there's no other big projects in play
08:21<andythenorth>nml is a big project
08:21<@Alberth>grf airports is also quiet
08:21<@planetmaker>there's scenario re-write, there's more heightlevels
08:22<Ammler>hehe, maybe you can convince fonso to maintain yacd :-)
08:22<andythenorth>airports is stuck entirely isn't it?
08:22<@planetmaker>Alberth: I hoped for your patch with airports ;-)
08:22<andythenorth>airports / newstations
08:22<andythenorth>RoadTypes is not happening
08:22<andythenorth>rv-wagons same
08:22<@planetmaker>there are the ideas of roadtypes, bridgeheads, tunnel heads
08:22<@planetmaker>town control
08:22<andythenorth>it's why I mentioned auto-updater yesterday
08:22<Ammler>region based newgrf
08:23<andythenorth>bananas isn't broken enough for anyone to bother fixing it
08:23<@Alberth>planetmaker: I had no big plans, mostly just small steps in the right direction
08:23<@planetmaker>all-climate. "new maptype"
08:23<@planetmaker>goal scripts
08:23<@Alberth>planetmaker: such as removal of the wait loop
08:24<Ammler>andythenorth: did you really try to work on the current bananas or did tb speak you away from that?
08:24<@planetmaker>I see :-) - but what would an airport do w/o holding pattern?
08:24<@planetmaker>would planes stop and queue?
08:24<@Alberth>planetmaker: it has one, but not in the aitrport state machine
08:24<Ammler>because bananas from scratch seems not happen, but it really needs improvments
08:24<@Alberth>so you can have aircrafts holding while you change the airport
08:25<@planetmaker>ah. That'd be useful
08:25<@planetmaker>yeah... bananas is another site which could need work
08:26<@planetmaker>many things to take care of :-)
08:26<@Alberth>translations for all newgrfs
08:26<@planetmaker>yes, also a nice project
08:26<@planetmaker>readme from ingame :-)
08:26<@Alberth>we should make #openttd-suggestions :p
08:27<@planetmaker>well. But maybe we should make a "wanted features" list
08:27<@Alberth>did you try the readme patch? I find the text-layout very bad
08:27<@planetmaker>Thus if someone feels like "dunno what I shall do" s/he could dive into it
08:27<@Alberth>no idea how to fix it
08:27<@peter1138>planetmaker, we used to have one of those
08:27<@peter1138>planetmaker, it was called the "roadmap" that people used to randomly update
08:27<@planetmaker>peter1138: yes... but seems abandoned. where?
08:29<@peter1138>dunno, i was being silly. it being a roadmap with unplanned features on it...
08:30<LordAro>[13:27:29] <@Alberth> did you try the readme patch? I find the text-layout very bad <-- i think its just a case of "you write your readme to support ottd" not the other way round
08:30<LordAro>hi, btw :)
08:31<@Alberth>sure, but how do you make a list of features then?
08:31<@Alberth>- foo
08:31<@Alberth> blah die blah
08:31<@Alberth>is already broken
08:32<@planetmaker>it probably shouldn't use a proportional font in that case.
08:32<@planetmaker>Which is a big problem :-)
08:34<@Alberth>yeah, either a mono-spaced font, or some tabbing-like indenting to text-columns. Neither is exactly simple
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08:38<@Alberth>the latter would mean you store the starting offset + column-number of each word. At the next line, check whether it starts with spaces, such that its first non-space is also the start of a word at the line above. Then use that starting offset
08:38<@Alberth>hi glx
08:39<@planetmaker>hi glx
08:39<@planetmaker>Alberth: yes, neither is really simple :-(
08:40*Alberth ponders doing some detection beforehand to simplify it
08:46<b_jonas>or just have the GRF authors link to other files from the Readme, say html files people will view with a browser.
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>use SET_X for alignment! :p
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>question: shall i attempt cargo-specific graphics and cargo-specific recolouring now, or shall i attempt slicing long vehicle sprites into shorter sections (to avoid glitches)?
08:50<@planetmaker>b_jonas: and you give us the code to reliably call the user's preferred browser on all supported OS?
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>problem is we have no cargo specific graphics to play with yet
08:51<@planetmaker>the first thing is relatively simple, the 2nd probably more effort
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>syntax might be something like: "cargo:(COAL:recolour(bulk,black),SAND|GRAIN:recolour(bulk,yellow))"
08:57<@planetmaker>what's the "bulk" in that list?
08:57<@planetmaker>it seems not needed
08:57<LordAro>Alberth/planetmaker: i haven't noticed too much of an issue when testing myself
08:58<TWerkhoven>bulk cargo?
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: "bulk" is a graphics file name, like "A_O_5_bulk.png"
09:00<@planetmaker>ah, ok
09:05<andythenorth>Ammler: I started thinking about bananas, but without a collaborator who is good at web backends...I'd be out of my depth
09:06<andythenorth>Alberth: here's how I made a feature list :D
09:07<andythenorth>I should update that
09:07<andythenorth>some of it is done
09:08<V453000>is there anything special in how is the total train weight counted? When I read what the depot information on wagons/engines says, and count it, it ends up being totally different from the "real" weight when I actually build the train and see the info of the train on total weight
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: articulated parts?
09:09<V453000>no, normal wagons
09:09<V453000>both unloaded and loaded, the counted values dont match
09:09<@planetmaker>callback for different weight with different cargo?
09:09<@planetmaker>or different weight when it's Friday 13 and the engine coloured red?
09:10<@planetmaker>except when it's a leap year, of course ;-)
09:10<andythenorth>weight multiplier?
09:10<andythenorth>who actually did advanced action 2 tile layouts?
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>or when Halloween and Friday, 13th fall on the same day. In April.
09:11<V453000>for example, I have a gondola which says it is empty (22t) and a centerbeam wagon which also says 22t. When I made a train consisting of two BR182s from DB set and added 8 wagons to each, the gondola one has 368t in total, the centerbeam has 346 in total
09:12<@planetmaker>@calc 368/8
09:12<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 46
09:12<V453000>170 are engines
09:12<@planetmaker>@calc 198/8
09:12<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 24.75
09:13<@peter1138>hmm, don't even have the dbset around any more :(
09:13*peter1138 mumbles about bananas
09:13<V453000>@calc (346-170)/8
09:13<@DorpsGek>V453000: 22
09:13<V453000>hm, one of them is correct
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>"Paniertes Schweineschnitzel aus Putenbrust"
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>er... :p
09:14<V453000>mit bier?
09:14<@planetmaker>in Bierteig
09:17<V453000>hm :( the errors happen with various train sets
09:18<@planetmaker>purchase list info can differ from bought vehicle
09:18<@planetmaker>it's up to the newgrf to do the right thing
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09:18<@peter1138>don't think dbset does anything like that
09:19<@peter1138>it's pre-cb36
09:19<V453000>planetmaker: so basically the depot values do not have to match with running train?
09:19<@peter1138>new vehicle values, no
09:20<@planetmaker>peter1138: couldn't a train alter it there via cb36 either?
09:20<andythenorth>a suggestion that died: fields around industries
09:21<andythenorth>maybe via new objects, 'planted' by industry
09:21<@peter1138>Born_Acorn! newfields!
09:21<Korenn>oooo, storage fields around factories
09:22<andythenorth>smoke for ships is stuck in limbo right now
09:22<andythenorth>it's slightly done, but mostly unusable
09:22<@planetmaker>andythenorth: I'd not consider the idea died. But it's an idea come too early
09:23<@planetmaker>which form my pov is a difference :-)
09:24<andythenorth>something else: vehicles in vehicles
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09:26<andythenorth>cargo containers
09:26<andythenorth>lots of fun things to do :)
09:26<andythenorth>so is it dying?
09:27<Eddi|zuHause><peter1138> Born_Acorn! newfields! <-- what happenet to him, actually?
09:27<Eddi|zuHause>he never says anything anymore
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09:32<andythenorth>planetmaker: FIRS is waiting on a new stable ottd before we can release 0.7.x ?
09:34<@planetmaker>doesn't mean we can't do anything...
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09:36<supermop>what's new in firs?
09:37<Korenn>magical kingdom climate? transport wizards and treasure? ;)
09:39<supermop>i am totally unaware of most new features as i am still playing chills patch pack
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09:39<Korenn>supermop: isn't that pretty outdated by now?
09:39<Korenn>does it have rivers?
09:41<supermop>not unless you draw them yourself
09:41<supermop>and it cannot load a save from nightly, so no real way to get them
09:42<Korenn>ofcourse it can't - no support whatsoever, so that wouldn't make sense :)
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09:43<Elukka>go finish firs, all of it, so i can make that scenario i dream of making with it :p
09:44<andythenorth>my motivation to work on it is currently low
09:44<andythenorth>I'm not demoralised, just not inspired
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: now's the right time to work on economies
09:44<andythenorth>could be
09:45<andythenorth>because it's now in nml, I'm much less inclined to work on the code
09:45<V453000>hm this is sad :( the vehicle purchase infos tend to be so wrong in so many cases
09:45<andythenorth>I'm kind of limited to drawing these days
09:45<supermop>dont like nml?
09:45<andythenorth>nml is great
09:46<andythenorth>but I don't know nml, and I no longer know the FIRS codebase either
09:46<andythenorth>so I'm trying to work on a massive codebase, that doesn't work like it did for the last 2 years, in a language I don't know
09:46<LordAro>why did you convert it then?
09:47<andythenorth>because grfcodec doesn't support advanced tile layouts
09:47<andythenorth>and to gain maintainability
09:48<andythenorth>it was the correct thing to do, but has the side effect that I no longer develop code for FIRS
09:48<andythenorth>so FIRS development depends on the goodwill of other people
09:48<Korenn>andythenorth: but NML is so much easier than NFO ;)
09:48<andythenorth>not really
09:48<andythenorth>it's considerably more complex in my opinion
09:49<@planetmaker>no, not really
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09:49<andythenorth>it's a more familiar syntax compared to other high level languages, but it's a lot less explicit
09:49<@planetmaker>andythenorth: your problem is you jump from highly-templated nfo to even more-highly templated NML
09:49<@planetmaker>and compare that
09:50<@planetmaker>half of firs was and is meta-programmed
09:50<@planetmaker>and the complexity of the templates firs uses now is considerably higher than before
09:50<andythenorth>it wasn't in a good state before nml either. It's just that the meta-programming was mostly mine
09:51<supermop>a 'yard' rail type would be neat
09:51<andythenorth>or it was explained to me by those who did it
09:51<andythenorth>but still I find nml magical
09:51<supermop>maybe ill work on that
09:51<andythenorth>too many years of nfo
09:52<@planetmaker>"any sufficiently sophisticated technology is not distinguishable from magic" ;-)
09:52<andythenorth>+1 to that as well
09:52<Elukka>firs is the best damn thing to happen to ottd for a good while to me
09:53<@planetmaker>programming it can eat loads of time, too ;-)
09:53<@planetmaker>I guess I spent a few weeks on the conversion
09:53<@planetmaker>and re-templating
09:54<@planetmaker>so far
09:56<andythenorth>maybe FIRS is just too big
09:56<@planetmaker>I don't think so
09:56<V453000>VECTORS! :D
09:56<@planetmaker>it's just not a project to be done in a month or a few months
09:56<andythenorth>the amount of work remaining is overwhelming, and I'd like to get some of it gone
09:57<@planetmaker>then stop to care about stable openttd
09:57<andythenorth>oh, wrt release you mean?
09:57<andythenorth>I'm not bothered about that
09:57<andythenorth>we don't need to release currently
09:58<@planetmaker>it's not about 'need' or 'should'. It's about the psychological impatch. On you ;-)
09:58<andythenorth>we can release 0.8.0 or such to bananas when stable has caught up
09:58<andythenorth>or we can implement what you said in your recent ticket
09:58<V453000>is it compatible with trunk?
09:58<V453000>why wait then :(
09:59<andythenorth>because then stable users won't be able to download FIRS
09:59<@planetmaker>V453000: you can download always the nightly
09:59<@planetmaker>that's how much was done
09:59<andythenorth>there is a FIRS release, it's just bundle server only
09:59<andythenorth>for 0.7.0
09:59<V453000>I know
09:59<andythenorth>changing the grfID is usually Just A Bad Idea
09:59<V453000>but we could for example use it on public server without making mess with adding extra newgrfs etc
09:59<@planetmaker>V453000: it's a bananas restriction: only one version is active concurrently
10:00<V453000>ah I see
10:00<V453000>well that sucks :(
10:00<@planetmaker>thus if put on bananas stable users have no firs anymore at all
10:00<andythenorth>then we lose FIRS users, or they think it has died
10:00<V453000>or they download newer openttd :P
10:01<andythenorth>so options include: don't worry about it for now; fix bananas; push for new stable ottd release; split versions + offer both on bananas
10:01<V453000>and well ... how soon is a new stable arriving? :)
10:01<V453000>yes :)
10:01<@planetmaker>after all a pikka-release cycle is not the worst either
10:01<@planetmaker>there's no-one who released more frequently new newgrf versions than you, andythenorth
10:02<@planetmaker>currently I'm personally fine with "wait for stable ottd"
10:02<V453000>I guess :)
10:02<@planetmaker>I need to gather some new drive to address some firs issues, too ;-)
10:02<andythenorth>or we could do something else entirely for a bit
10:02<andythenorth>I could add new steam trams to HEQS for example
10:02<andythenorth>or start a truck set
10:02<supermop>bush field new airports for supplies?
10:03<andythenorth>truck set has valid side issues for ottd trunk
10:03<frosch123>he, "wait for stable version" of the software is imo one of the reasons ttdp died :p
10:03<andythenorth>'auto-updater ftw' ©
10:03<andythenorth>stable software is dangerous
10:03<andythenorth>one of my commercial products is stalling because we now have 'stable' user base
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10:04<@Alberth>stay away from debian?
10:04<andythenorth>we can't easily update + change deployments, so adding new features is getting stuck in molasses
10:04<V453000>andythenorth: just tell me if you had an irresistible urge to draw some trains :P
10:04<andythenorth>if I did, they'd go in HEQS :)
10:04<andythenorth>other things we could do: fix ship smoke (smoke generally)
10:04<andythenorth>then I'll implement that in FISH
10:05<andythenorth>or I could just work on CHIPS, which is fun, I can mostly do on mine own, and has zero blockers :P
10:05<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you increasingly have "issues" like "I'd do, if..."
10:05<andythenorth>I used to just 'do'
10:05<andythenorth>I've 'done'
10:06<andythenorth>quite a bit
10:06<@planetmaker>yeah. You explored thoroughly the boundaries of current newgrf capabilities in several areas
10:07<@planetmaker>the problem are now: the boundaries don't move that fast anymore as you can explore ;-)
10:07<andythenorth>the truck set bothers me :P
10:07<andythenorth>I want nice trucks
10:07<andythenorth>but the current RV situation is poor
10:07<andythenorth>at least for articulated vehicles
10:07<andythenorth>and I think it's maybe resolvable
10:07<@planetmaker>"articulated" is something which could generally be generalized ;-)
10:08<@planetmaker>many issues are resolvable...
10:08<andythenorth>possibly it's even fine with just a few small tweaks and some decisions to not care about others
10:08<andythenorth>maybe I should write some spec for a set, with options :)
10:09<@planetmaker>meta-programme it like cets
10:09<@planetmaker>one can hardly meta-programme more that that ;-)
10:09<@planetmaker>input: spreadsheet + a few python scripts. Output: grf
10:10<andythenorth>why would I be asked for a password on pull from here?
10:10*andythenorth explores hgrc
10:10<@planetmaker>you configured https
10:10<@planetmaker>instead of http
10:10<@planetmaker>for default
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yeah, it's pretty genious, isn't it? :)
10:11<@planetmaker>it's great stuff, yes :-)
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if you find some time, read through the .py files, and tell me how self-documenting it is (or where it needs more comments)
10:17<@planetmaker>ok, will do. Remind me again, if I haven't done so within "proper" time
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10:34<Korenn>andythenorth: does FISH have introduction dates set yet?
10:34<Pinkbeast>Last I looked it did, but still often absurd ones.
10:35<andythenorth>Korenn: mostly not
10:35<andythenorth>well more accurately - mostly absurd ones
10:35<Korenn>I'm currently using a somewhat older version, and the fact that most ships are available from 1870 or earlier is a bit of a shame
10:35<Korenn>no tech progression
10:35<Pinkbeast>It struck me when a bunch of diesel ships appeared in 18something and I thought to myself "huh, when was the diesel engine invented?" :-)
10:36<andythenorth>why are there no steam ships? :P
10:37<Pinkbeast>Sailing Ships has one or two in, does it not?
10:37<andythenorth>FISH has one steam ship
10:38<andythenorth>I'm not doing more at the moment because (1) I lost my collaborator (DanMacK) (2) no smoke
10:38<andythenorth>specifically the ideas at the end
10:39<supermop>looks good, still reading it
10:39*V453000 likes No real world models.
10:40<supermop>i like pushing for wagons
10:40<supermop>les refitting
10:40<Pinkbeast>I know this is different to eGRVTS but it's still kind of the same.
10:40<Pinkbeast>start rv-wagons - yes please, although I ain't proposing to do the work so what do I get to say?
10:41<Pinkbeast>I cannot remember the last time I placed a drive-into road stop
10:41<supermop>i llike the idea of a couple fake brads
10:41<supermop>two us brands, two EU brands?
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10:42<supermop>really big russian trucks based on icbm TELs should be in heqs anyway
10:43<supermop>japanese trucks count as the same as eu for this set?
10:43<andythenorth>not sure
10:43<andythenorth>japanese trucks made minimal impact in us + eu
10:43<andythenorth>so my knowledge is limited
10:44<supermop>we get a lot of rigid body hino and mitsubishi here
10:45<supermop>id say minimal impact in us trailers but market dominance for rigid trucks in urban and industrial areas
10:45<supermop>maybe that means they dont belong in what sounds like an over the road set
10:47<supermop>ant this in every generation:also wh
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10:47<supermop>also want
10:48<Elukka>andythenorth: i'd have some stat difference between the two brands that isn't negated by playing with breakdowns off
10:49<Pinkbeast>Elukka> I think that is suggested - after all one has maximum speed, power, capacity, running cost, purchase cost to play with.
10:49<andythenorth>supermop: I have one of those - near enough
10:50<supermop>piaggio ape +rv wagons
10:50<supermop>ape train
10:53<andythenorth>supermop: in India you get piaggio and bajaj with fifth-wheel trailers
10:53<supermop>a great case for rv wagons right there
10:54<supermop>also, horse would make more sense if you just multihead a few Clydesdales then put whatever you want behind
10:55<supermop>ctrl click to have the horse walk backwards
10:55<andythenorth>supermop: it makes more sense yes
10:55<andythenorth>but waiting for perfection makes no sense :)
10:56<b_jonas>horse-drawn trains are tricky because you want depot visits that replace the horse without the whole train entering
10:56<andythenorth>I think this is me jumping off and saying "rv-wagons isn't going to happen forseeably"
10:56<andythenorth>so I need to design a set around limitations
10:56<andythenorth>which is a fun thing to do in some ways
10:56<Pinkbeast>Simutrans has horse and cart as separate units, doesn't it?
10:56<supermop>bandit should still be viable without wagons
10:57<b_jonas>what happens if the UFO abducts the horse?
10:57<supermop>rigid truck, trailer truck, and two-trailer truck, all refittable to anything
10:58<andythenorth>and no rigids with pup?
10:58<supermop>5 trailer road trains might not make sense in tt
10:58<Pinkbeast>Urrr. At least liquid tankers and refrigerated lorries are surely separate things not refittable to each other
10:58<andythenorth>its only a body swap
10:59<andythenorth>it's / its /s
10:59<supermop>in this case refit reads as swap the trailer
10:59<Pinkbeast>Even for rigid bodies?
10:59<supermop>rigid truck chassis are pretty easy to mount anything to
10:59<Pinkbeast>I guess absent rv-wagons it's best to turn a blind eye to any gripes with that. :-)
11:00<andythenorth>I think so
11:00<supermop>id second andy's suggestion of free refits of trailers, small token cost to refit a body
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>google docs is obviously no perfect piece of software either...
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>as in: i can't access it right now...
11:00<supermop>perfect is the enemy of the good
11:01<andythenorth>if I ditch rigid + trailer, then it's only two 'types'
11:01<andythenorth>as an articulated truck with one trailer could also be a b-train, a triple etc
11:01<andythenorth>on refit
11:01<andythenorth>would need a better subtypes gui though
11:01<supermop>id keep it simple for now
11:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: assume split refit gui comes sooner or later
11:04<supermop>yeah get a simple grf out now as something fun to do
11:05<andythenorth>nml or nfo?
11:05<supermop>nml - good practice?
11:05<andythenorth>perhaps yes
11:06<supermop>unaware of rv stuff in nfo not implemented in nml
11:06<supermop>as to drive through stops
11:06<supermop>i'd handle it as with egrvts but with a disclaimer
11:07<andythenorth>I could just prevent all bandit vehicles using drive-into stops
11:07<andythenorth>same for HEQS
11:07<Pinkbeast>Who _does_ use drive-into stops anyway?
11:07<andythenorth>a lot
11:07<supermop>drive intos are still useful for a station that has 1-3 trucks visiting
11:07<supermop>i do
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: they're better when you do "full load"
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11:07<Pinkbeast>Huh, all the world is not like me, who knew. :-)
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11:07<supermop>as then it takes up less room and doesnt block the street
11:08<andythenorth>if I ban drive-into use, then the confusion is reduced
11:08<Pinkbeast>I always do do "full load" for non-pax/mail cargoes except maybe FIRS supplies
11:08<andythenorth>if I upgrade HEQS now to ban drive-into, people will get used to it
11:08<Pinkbeast>I guess it's because I use trams where possible so don't really even consider drive-into designs with other RVs
11:09<andythenorth>could we remove drive-into?
11:09<supermop>i don't know if their are many people unaware/upset that articulated vehicles cant use drive into
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: 3-axle coaches now in
11:10<supermop>just have them only accessible to rigid trucks
11:10<Elukka>i just noticed i did a tiny mistake with the sprite, and the 2nd class version's going to be up very soon since i noticed there's no significant difference (besides color, that is)
11:10<andythenorth>supermop: well they are already
11:10<andythenorth>but I could give every rigid truck a trailer
11:10<andythenorth>thereby preventing them using drive-into
11:10<supermop>i would miss that functionality
11:11<Elukka>i swear no matter how many times i look a sprite over after i finish it, some mistake will slip in
11:11<supermop>what would be the case for doing that over using a tractor with two trailers?
11:11<Elukka>the 4th class one i'm gonna do some reworking on
11:11<andythenorth>supermop: not much case
11:11<supermop>i'm not sure it would be worth losing the drive into bays
11:12<andythenorth>it would be more interesting if partial refit was possible
11:12<andythenorth>but it isn't
11:12<supermop>as eddi said, assume it will come eventually
11:12<andythenorth>partial refit might not
11:12<andythenorth>but if it does, it doesn't change the newgrf
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>split != partial
11:13<andythenorth>partial refit of articulated appears quite blocked
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>could introduce some special flag to the articulated callback, like "here be new wagon". then you'd have like a 2-layer articulation, and can handle that second layer like individual wagons in the gui
11:15<supermop>i think you have enough in your spec for a good start
11:15<supermop>its too early to be harping over these specific case hurdles
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>take the Henschel-Wegmann-Zug of CETS, it currently has an articulation like: [Engine, dummy, Mail wagon, dummy, dummy, (Middle wagon, dummy, dummy)x3, End wagon, dummy, dummy]
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>that causes it to be shown as one big unit in the train gui, instead of the usual individual wagons
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>if i could layer the articulation, i could do it like: [[Engine, dummy],[Mail wagon, dummy dummy],[Middle wagon, dummy, dummy]x3,[End wagon, dummy, dummy]]
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>and the gui would know when to start a new line
11:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: this sounds plausible ish
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>and the refit gui could allow selecting these individual parts
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>we need a new articulation anyway, for IDs > 128
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11:20<andythenorth>this is true also
11:20<Elukka>sprites up
11:20<andythenorth>where is the roadmap :P
11:20<Eddi|zuHause>open question: how to "hide" a sub-chain when refitting to fewer wagons?
11:20<andythenorth>no idea :(
11:21<andythenorth>the problem with clever hacks is....
11:22<andythenorth>....they stack up complexity :)
11:23<Elukka>hm. might be an idea to have both brown and grey roofed variant of the three axle coaches
11:23<Elukka>easy enough to do
11:24<Elukka>good god my early attempts are atrocious
11:24<Elukka>at least i've gotten somewhere these past few weeks...
11:25<supermop>heqs trucks were named after mountains?
11:31<supermop>would you rather name the brrands or the models in bandit?
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: so, could you post your updates _before_ i hit commit? :)
11:31<Elukka>i try!
11:32<Elukka>you should probably just let me fumble for a few minutes when i upload something :P
11:32<andythenorth>supermop: both
11:32<supermop>brands could be named after NA or european regions/locations
11:32<supermop>regions are bigger than mountains
11:33<supermop>cahokia would bbe a good us brand name
11:34<andythenorth>watersheds, mountain ranges, indian ranges etc would be good names
11:35<supermop>was a centrally located civilization, that engaged in serious trading with other groups as far away as both costs
11:35<supermop>fits the essence of over road trucking
11:35<supermop>not sure if Cahokia or Cahokian is better
11:36<andythenorth>where was it located?
11:36<andythenorth>it's not the easiest name to read :)
11:36<andythenorth>quite often I name things that are one-step removed
11:36<andythenorth>like hydrofoil, built in a certain city, named after the tributary of the major river
11:36<supermop>american bottom region - confluence of Missouri and Mississippi
11:37<andythenorth>Missouri is not bad for a truck mfr
11:37<andythenorth>nor is Confluence
11:37<andythenorth>maybe Confluence sucks
11:37<Eddi|zuHause>Confluence = Koblenz
11:37<supermop>it was on the opposite bank from modern st louis - which became an important city for european overland transport in the 19th century
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>(german city, located at the confluence of Mosel and Rhein)
11:38<andythenorth>maybe name all the mfrs after confluence points
11:38<supermop>that is white people traveling the major trails in wagons
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>so... someone wanted to teach me about recolouring
11:39<supermop>so its a location that has been important for transport for thousands of years
11:39<supermop>and its a native name so its clearly distinguishable from a european brand
11:40<supermop>confluence might sound too much like a boat company
11:40<andythenorth>or a wiki :
11:41<Elukka>eddi, recoloring?
11:41<supermop>I guess you will want vaguely German and vaguely Scandinavian names too
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11:42<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: applying a recolour mask to a real sprite
11:42<supermop>Valby is a good fake volvo,
11:42<Elukka>oh, dark arts
11:42<supermop>but the only think in valby is the carlsberg/tuborg brewery
11:43<andythenorth>tuborg was a truck mfr I think
11:43<andythenorth>or maybe it's a beer :P
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: trust me, you don't want to draw graphics for each bulk cargo individually ;)
11:43<supermop>confluence of beer?
11:43<andythenorth>terberg mfrs trucks
11:43<Elukka>hm. so you draw one bulk cargo and you do magic to recolor it to the rest
11:43<Elukka>*i draw one
11:44<supermop>obviously the scania region is taken already
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: yep. probably in magic company colour blue or something
11:44<andythenorth>better to dig to another level of abstraction :)
11:45<andythenorth>what's the main town for, e.g. Mercedes truck production?
11:45<andythenorth>in fact, Mercedes is covered already by HEQS: Gmund
11:45<supermop>lots of good names there
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: trucks are probably produced at a different place than cars
11:46<supermop>gottenburg is too literal for volvo i think
11:47<andythenorth>supermop: find a suburb of gottenburg
11:47<andythenorth>or a river
11:47<andythenorth>or a street near volvo HQ
11:47<andythenorth>it's easter eggs :)
11:47<supermop>hmm how about dalarna
11:47<supermop>different province but thats where those red horses come from
11:48*andythenorth experiments with actually playing ottd
11:48<Elukka>it's a pretty good game!
11:48<Elukka>could also big some nearby town for the truck name
11:49<supermop>thats an awesome truck name right there
11:51*andythenorth can't be bothered to type ummlaut :)
11:51<supermop>red horse figurine
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>am i stupid? all "examples" of recolour sprites only say how to define one... not where to use it...
11:51<Eddi|zuHause>am i overlooking something trivial?
11:51<supermop>supposedly represents odin's horse
11:52<andythenorth>is a good name
11:52<Elukka>Tuve sounds nice and short to me, kinda like Volvo
11:53<supermop>too long of a name, but this is up the river from gottenburg:ättan
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>i have a stupid suggestion that i probably shouldn't say before 23:00 :p
11:53<Rubidium>just get the ikea catalogue for scandinavianish names
11:53<Elukka>do it anyway
11:53<andythenorth>trollhattan is nice
11:53<andythenorth>troll :P
11:53<supermop>has a lock and dam
11:53<supermop>transport related
11:54<supermop>shit its 80 degrees outside and here i am at my computer
11:54<supermop>im off to be in the sun
11:55<supermop>home you have fun with the trucks!
11:56*andythenorth also toddles off to other things
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12:09<Eddi|zuHause>so really, who DOES know how recolouring is done?
12:22<Elukka>did the door open sprite for the closed goods car
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12:29<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: what's the problem? it's just a mapping from {0..255} to {0..255}
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i'm asking how to apply it
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: how do i say "remap this sprite with this map"
12:30<frosch123>there is some stupid callback
12:30<frosch123>with weird return values
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12:31<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's what i suspected, but i can't find it
12:31<Elukka>hm, cattle car's another easy sprite
12:31<Elukka>just a modification of the existing one
12:31<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: 2D
12:33<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: colour_mapping
12:33<@planetmaker>and purchase_colour_mapping
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12:35<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: the car i noted in the tracking table isn't really for cattle, more for smaller animals like pigs, sheep, geese
12:35<Elukka>hmm yeah that's what i meant
12:35<Elukka>cattle isn't the word i wanted :P
12:36<Eddi|zuHause>yeah something like that
12:37<Elukka>hmm wonder what the ends look like
12:37<Elukka>same as the sides i guess
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>i'd say same as the normal closed wagon
12:39<Elukka>i have a model, not of the same car but the construction of the body is practically identical, and the ends have the openings too
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r23014 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: welsh - 3 changes by kazzie
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14:24<@planetmaker>thank you Eddi|zuHause, for saying that wrt the 'curious bug'
14:24<@planetmaker>I had to restrain myself ;-)
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14:30<Eddi|zuHause>conspiracy theory of the day: "the 'federal trojan' incident caused minister of interior Friedrichs to flee to Kabul"
14:32<Rubidium>looks like the prototypical "I changed the NewGRF(s)" effect, and as such it's not a bug
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15:03<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i think separate column for recolouring is better
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>with similar syntax
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16:06<appe>guys, i have been working with mailroom and printing before, and ill say; the ECS industry printing works does not look like printing works usually do.
16:06<George>appe: Would you draw a better one?
16:08<appe>no, and its not the quality of the structure that's the problem. it just doesnt look like printing works do.
16:09<appe>ill be happy to contribute with a more acurate picture.
16:09<andythenorth>google images thinks printing works look like this:
16:09<andythenorth>so I'd say George is 100% accurate :)
16:12<@planetmaker>lol :-)
16:16<George>appe> ill be happy to contribute with a more acurate picture. <- well, in that case a task to draw a better graphics would have low priority in case good photos are provided.
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16:26<appe>George: i guess i can fix that.
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17:54<@planetmaker>good night
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---Logclosed Mon Oct 10 00:00:30 2011