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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-10

---Logopened Mon Oct 10 00:00:30 2011
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02:17<appe>__ln__: fantastic.
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03:03<Elukka>felt like modeling something technical, figured i'd do a train
03:03<Elukka>turns out trains are complicated so all i got done is the underframe of a wagon :P
03:10<norbert79>Elukka: Why? It looks nice
03:11<Elukka>just felt like modeling something
03:11<Elukka>call it practice
03:11<norbert79>Elukka: Needs some bit of improvemt though, even the rails are underlayed with crossbars a bit different
03:11<norbert79>but in general it looks ok
03:11<Elukka>it's all fictional, but i try to make it look kinda real
03:11<norbert79>I couldn't even get this far, well, maybe some bit later, since I have never done any 3D yet
03:12<norbert79>Only 2D vector
03:12<Elukka>track's loosely based on
03:12<norbert79>Oh, I see... Not regular then
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03:18<Elukka>most of my (meager) 3D experience involves spaceships :P
03:19<norbert79>Elukka: Not bad, not bad... Celestia Motherload must be your favorite then :)
03:19<Elukka>isn't celestia more about celestial objects
03:20<norbert79>Elukka: Not only
03:20<Elukka>i'd love to fly it in orbiter but i'd have to learn how to do it
03:20<norbert79>Elukka: No, you cannot fly them, but there are ton's of addons to Celestia
03:20<Elukka>in orbiter you can :P
03:20<norbert79>Elukka: Like Mir station, ISS, Sci-Fi spaceships
03:20<norbert79>Well, I use Stellarium :)
03:21<Elukka>but i don't even know how to use orbiter, nevermind how to develop addons for it
03:21<Elukka>plus i'd have to finish the thing's textures... i've only done the nose module
03:31<@planetmaker>Are you sure such module would not be rater covered by MLI?
03:31<@planetmaker>and I'd increase the solar panel size
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03:32<Elukka>they're radiators
03:33<Elukka>it's got two gas core nuclear rockets, you can tap into them for plenty of electricity :P
03:33<Elukka>i didn't want to make it shiny so i gave it a similar covering as soyuz
03:35<Elukka>it'd probably be somewhat easy to plug in to orbiter of something if i bothered to learn how, since i worked out its mass, thrust and other relevant parameters
03:37<Korenn>where should I get grfcodec these days? still ?
03:38<@planetmaker>no, that's eons old
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03:39<Korenn>my link is still the first hit when you google grfcodec :P
03:39<@planetmaker>sad to say, but: ttdpatch* websites are not maintained and outdated for years
03:40<@planetmaker>and we can't fix what you mentioned unfortunately
03:42*norbert79 is listening to Glenn Miller - Moonlight Serenade (Miller's Tune) @ [256kbps]
03:43<norbert79>aw, christ sakes
03:43<norbert79>hah, managed... but why does it get into autoannounce when loaded?
03:44<norbert79>Hah, fixed that too
03:50<@peter1138> links to
03:50<@peter1138>so ... could be changed? :p
03:51<norbert79>peter1138: Sure on that? Last changed on Nov 28 2006 16:33 EST and the download is not pointing to there
03:52<norbert79>peter1138: Only the first few lines are telling, that it's under different control
03:52<@peter1138>you read top-down, right?
03:52<norbert79>peter1138: The main part still offers the grfcodec
03:52<norbert79>peter1138: Not always, sometimes I focus on key words
03:52<norbert79>peter1138: If results differ from I wanted, then I go through that in depth
03:53<@planetmaker>oh, it links there :-)
03:53<@planetmaker>well, that link is also still up to date
03:53<norbert79>peter1138: Having a small link called "here" and underlined has less attraction, than the words: Windows: (136 kB)
03:53<norbert79> Linux: (79 kB)
03:54<@planetmaker>he, well, that grfcodec will get people quickly into trouble when trying more than trivial things
03:54<norbert79>planetmaker: Exactly
03:54<@planetmaker>Korenn: what are you trying actually?
03:55<Korenn>nothing special atm, updating a grf of mine to work with the patch I'm building
03:55<norbert79>true, true... And where is the budweiser? :)
03:57<@planetmaker>Korenn: ok. I just wondered whether you might want to look at NML. Might or might not be worth when you update existing (new)grfs
03:57<Korenn>oh yes, I definitely intend to
03:57<norbert79>planetmaker: So basically NML is the new method on creating GRF-s. Long road since first backported GRF's understanding hexabytes and now having an own language built on it...
03:58<Korenn>but I already had this set up from before, so it's easier just to add a couple more features than to rewrite the whole thing :)
03:58<norbert79>planetmaker: Well done
03:58<@planetmaker>norbert79: nml is not really built on nfo
03:58<norbert79>planetmaker: Yet the end result is the same
03:58<@planetmaker>it's simply a high-level implementation of the grf specs
03:59<norbert79>planetmaker: It makes GRF's, right? :)
03:59<norbert79>well, partly
03:59<Korenn>NML still misses some features, iirc
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04:01<@planetmaker>norbert79: when I have the choice, I'll choose NML. I might be biased, but I see my time better spent thinking about the issue and not the syntax and whether I have to type 84 01 or 84 02 to get the proper error message.
04:04<@peter1138>down with newgrf!
04:04<@peter1138>we should use ini files...
04:04<@planetmaker>ini is soo old. xml!
04:07<norbert79>xml is rather way too problematic, let's use SQLLite based DB's
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04:29<@Terkhen>good morning
04:30<@Terkhen>squirrel scripts? :)
04:44<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
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04:54<Korenn>Terkhen: squirrel scripts instead of newgrf would make things a whole lot more consistent ;)
04:55<@Terkhen>I'm not so sure about that :)
04:55<Korenn>it was suggested a couple of years back, but nobody wants to maintain two extension methods and blocking grf isn't an option :P
04:57<@peter1138>implement newgrf in squirrel...
04:58<@Terkhen>you could have that too if you create a new version of the NewGRF specs that includes all current features in a consistent way
04:59<@planetmaker>hm... "...two methods..." and "consistent"? ;-)
04:59<@Terkhen>with a language change you can hide some inconsistencies, but not all of them
04:59<@Terkhen>see nml for example
04:59<@planetmaker>nml does actually an awesome job hiding the pesky details
05:00<@Terkhen>yes, but some remain :P
05:00<@Terkhen>what I mean is: if you want true consistency, redesign everything from the start and make it feature complete
05:01<@planetmaker>which simply won't happen with the grfspecs
05:01<@planetmaker>at least I don't see that at all
05:01<@planetmaker>I might only see a slow re-write and amendment to more consistency
05:02<@Terkhen>some of the biggest inconsistencies could be taken out with a new version (for example the cb36 mess) but more than that is not worth the effort IMO
05:02<@Terkhen>besides, said version would increase the maintenance work
05:03<@planetmaker>but much less so than a completely new system
05:05<Korenn>planetmaker: I mean consistency with respect to AI progreamming
05:05<@planetmaker>Korenn: it's completely different aspects of the game which hook into openttd completely different, too
05:06<@planetmaker>need to, actually
05:06<Korenn>having one scripting language for all ottd extensability is also a form of consistency ;)
05:06<Korenn>sure, but in theory there's no reason you can't define sprites and object properties in a squirrel script
05:07<@Terkhen>opening a script would be slower than opening a grf file
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05:08<Korenn>similarly, it's theoretically possible to script the UI look and feel, allowing people to 'skin' ottd
05:09<SpComb>but why :(
05:10<Korenn>making things accessibly is the way to making things look better - like when changing the fonts allowed artistic people to start experimenting and come up with nicer fonts for ottd.
05:10<@peter1138>you could always change the font
05:10<Korenn>Don't take my comments as lobbying btw, I'm just throwing ideas out there
05:11<Korenn>peter1138: so not the point ;)
05:21<@Terkhen>you can change fonts already
05:21<@Terkhen>but only in openttd.cfg
05:27<@peter1138>personally, i <3 the gui
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05:41<norbert79>peter1138: So do I, I never could really understand the need for changing fonts. There was a temporary period, where the built in fonts didn't support special characters, but that's not true anymore
05:42<@peter1138>iirc it started off as a hack as a way for me to test the utf-8 support
05:42<@peter1138>long time ago though :p
05:42<norbert79>peter1138: I adore that from you :))
05:42<norbert79>Since then no more issues
05:43<norbert79>You can still see some rant from me form back then when switched to UTF-8, and had been let down, when coming up, that there are no special characters in the default ones, and I shall just use a TTF :Ö
05:43<norbert79>was about 5 years ago, I guess
05:43<norbert79>or earlier
05:44<norbert79>So thank you for starting it getting it changed :)
05:44<@peter1138>i think i added some chars, maybe it was just an example grf though
05:45<norbert79>Well, that started it solving that problem for me... Have spent some times for finding the right TTFs working around the problem back then, never really found the perfect ones
05:45<@peter1138>ttfs really need antialiasing to work right
05:45<@peter1138>bitmap fonts work as well though
05:45<@peter1138>freetype supports a lot of formats
05:46<norbert79>I just love the current default ones
05:46<b_jonas>what I'd like is a system for graymap fonts
05:46<norbert79>graymap fonts?
05:47<norbert79>What's those?
05:47<b_jonas>currently you either use bitmap fonts (one bit per pixel), or some rendering engine for vector fonts (true type, type 1, whatever)
05:47<norbert79>I know PS fonts, binary types, TTF, OTF...
05:47<norbert79>bitmap I mean
05:48<b_jonas>I'd like a format and support for fonts where the characters are not bitmaps (each pixel is either black or white) but greymaps (each pixel has a value between, say, 0 and 255)
05:48<norbert79>Ooh, so like bitmap fonts, but greymapped
05:48<b_jonas>not that my bitmap font doesn't look well as is, but still :D
05:48<norbert79>Where are such fonts used?
05:49<@peter1138>what's the advantage over scalable fonts with a decent renderer?
05:49<norbert79>peter1138: wHICH CAN ALSO HAVE FIXED SIZES OF COURSE...
05:49<norbert79>Eh, Caps Lock
05:49<norbert79>peter1138: Well, I guess the size is less, since it's using fixed size, and no vector data
05:50<norbert79>peter1138: Yet the grayscale map makes it a bit larger, than regular bitmap
05:50<b_jonas>norbert79: nowhere, yet, because there's no format for them either
05:50<norbert79>b_jonas: That's why I was puzzled never hearing of them, despite I am a typophreak :)
05:50<b_jonas>it could be useful for screen in small sizes because the creator could draw them precisely
05:51<@peter1138>i think the filesize would be larger
05:51<@peter1138>and it would be only for a single size
05:51<@peter1138>so no use
05:51<@peter1138>(general purpose use)
05:51<norbert79>b_jonas: But the built in font's are providing the same
05:51<b_jonas>peter1138: true, but the computer is for me, so if I need larger filesize for a good font, well who cares
05:51<norbert79>b_jonas: Can't really see the advanteges there
05:51<@peter1138>or you use a scalable font and render it to a greyscale (or with alpha)
05:51<@peter1138>which is... what we do
05:51<norbert79>b_jonas: and bigger font's would just use way too much of a memory
05:52<norbert79>peter1138: Exactly
05:52<b_jonas>norbert79: you wouldn't use it for bigger sizes
05:52<b_jonas>only for small size
05:52<b_jonas>look, the bitmap font I'm using for IRC right now is 30K large
05:52<norbert79>b_jonas: Disagree: 3270 terminals use bitmap based types, and some even are 20 pt sized
05:52<b_jonas>yes, mine is 20 pixel high
05:53<norbert79>b_jonas: x3270 under Linux uses such
05:53<norbert79>b_jonas: that's why all fonts are gzipped when installing x3270
05:53<b_jonas>norbert79: yep, mine is gzipped too, but RAM is probably more important than disk space here
05:54<norbert79>b_jonas: I think both are equally important, yet I started with Commodore +4 backj then :)
05:54<norbert79>so I am used to 60kb of RAM :))
05:54<b_jonas>I think greymap fonts don't exist because back when font formats were invented you wanted good fonts for a printer where greymap would make no sense
05:54<b_jonas>and even a screen wouldn't handle greymaps
05:55<norbert79>b_jonas: Well, printing started with character based printers, some printers, like IBM rpinters had varied font sized printers
05:55<norbert79>Ball shaped printer-head
05:55<b_jonas>that's true
05:55<norbert79>later came matrix
05:55<b_jonas>and daisy wheel and that chain stuff in cashier machines
05:56<b_jonas>I've only ever seen ball shaped head on the internet
05:56<norbert79>like old typewriters
05:56<norbert79>I in real life
05:56<b_jonas>I'd like to find a museum that shows a selectric
05:56<norbert79>but way back in 1987-1988
05:56<norbert79>My mother, where she used to work had one of these
05:56<norbert79>it was a typewriter like, but isng the same method
05:56<b_jonas>I've only just seen a telex machine in a museum this year
05:56<b_jonas>it was amazing
05:56<norbert79>Well, the one I was playing with was loud as hell :D
05:56<b_jonas>two telexes working and triable, connected to each other,
05:57<b_jonas>and one had a tape punch and tape reader working too
05:57<b_jonas>I can't imagine how it can read the tape so quickly
05:57<norbert79>Our local firefighting station (father used to be a firefighter, now retired) used the telex until 2002
05:57<norbert79>like good old card readers of IBM
05:57<b_jonas>also, the keyboard physically locks half the keys so you can't acidentally press a key from the wrong mode
05:57<norbert79>was interesting once I played with it
05:58<norbert79>couldn't understand a lot
05:58<b_jonas>yes, it's a bit noisy
05:58<norbert79>but I was amazed :)
05:58<b_jonas>I've also just seen one of those large floppy drives exhibited somewhere
05:58<norbert79>I still own a 5.25
05:58<b_jonas>the one that looks like a 5 inch floppy drive magnified to twice the size
05:58<norbert79>but there used to be the double of their size
05:58<b_jonas>yes, that's the one
05:58<norbert79>my high school used to have one of those
05:59<norbert79>1 floppy
05:59<b_jonas>I've used 5 inch
05:59<norbert79>I have used 360 Kb (commodore 1541), 720 kb HD small 3.5 inch sized, 1.2 MB, also formatted sometimes to 1.44 :D
05:59<norbert79>good old formatting utils
05:59<b_jonas>from the internet, it seems the large one is 8 inch size
06:00<norbert79>I have started with a 8086 IBM PC back then. CGA card, CGA monitor, no HDD, plain mouse
06:00<b_jonas>and its capacity goes up to 1.2 MB just like the 5 inch floppies
06:01<b_jonas>norbert79: how much RAM?
06:01<norbert79>base 650 K
06:01<norbert79>I guess
06:01<norbert79>or 512 Kb
06:01<@peter1138>5¼" :S
06:01<b_jonas>so you could play Prince of Persia on it
06:02<b_jonas>but not Commander Keen
06:02<norbert79>STreet Rod
06:02<norbert79>Zak Mackracken
06:02<norbert79>North and South
06:02<norbert79>and it's lunchtime, be back soon :)
06:04<Elukka>a temperature sensor in my computer reads 4.2 billion celsius
06:04<Elukka>i thought it was running hot...
06:06<@Terkhen>you should take your computer to a fusion reaction lab
06:06<Korenn>norbert79: for me the reason to change fonts is pretty simple - when playing on an HD screen, the smallest font is barely legible
06:06<Elukka>it certainly ought to be fusing
06:10<Korenn>hm. I've got a custom cargo and I use prop 18 to set its substitute type to 'water', but the game displays it needs the cargo which is in the water slot, even thought that has set its substitute type to 'none'. derp?
06:12<Korenn>the prop 18 doesn't appear to trigger at all so I guess my nfo is just bad :)
06:12<Korenn>oh wait, I haven't upped the prop count :D
06:12<@planetmaker>you do use nforenum, do you?
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06:22<Korenn>yay, works
06:22<Korenn>no, no nforenum. And this is the last nfo I'll ever write since I intend to switch to NML for any new stuff, so I won't bother :P
06:23<@planetmaker>well. nforenum would have told you about wrong number of properties...
06:24<@planetmaker>writing nfo w/o using that... is insane
06:25<Korenn>this is a 22 line nfo that are all the same (bunch of cargos). it's really quite simple
06:26<Korenn>and most importantly, I'm done now :P
06:28<Korenn>w00t, towngrowth challenge is functional!
06:29<Korenn>plus it's a patch setting and the diff should be up to the trunk coding standard to boot.
06:29<Korenn>I haven't posted it yet. will do soon
06:31<@planetmaker>did you have a look at ?
06:31<@planetmaker>I see that your idea or old patch is linked there ;-)
06:32<Korenn>all three of them :P
06:32<Korenn>nope, hadn't read that yet
06:32<Korenn>my approach would be a good intermediate solution until that approach is implemented
06:33<@planetmaker>of course I haven't seen anything of your current patch... it would fit also well within a prospective goal framework; I somewhen gathered unsorted thoughts:
06:33<Korenn>I do have a TODO: add callbacks in my own list, which I found to be a bit too far out of my knowledge area
06:34<Korenn>so perhaps Frosch can improve my approach and finish it up with callbacks.
06:35<Korenn>ah, interesting. Yes, adding a goal was the second part of my spinoff back in the day
06:35<Korenn>mind if I jot down some remarks on that page?
06:36<@planetmaker>go right ahead
06:40<@planetmaker>iirc with the proper enhancement of the town feature the whole town growth challenge could be covered by a NewGRF
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06:50<Korenn>planetmaker: hm. storage of cargo shipped would be interesting though.
06:58<Korenn>planetmaker: I added some points that I ran into while adding the towngrowth goal in my spinoff
07:14<@Terkhen>all amounts of cargo produced and accepted by towns are stored already in my subsidies patch, but I'm not exposing them to NewGRFs (yet)
07:17<Korenn>that seems to be the dominant trend with all the towngrowth stuff, it's planned and/or designed, but not implemented. I have the advantage that I already played a game with it :D
07:18<@planetmaker>Korenn, by all means, please go ahead with that.
07:18<@planetmaker>Just make sure to discuss things, as it easily touches the core / the concept of how things are handled within OpenTTD
07:19<@planetmaker>it's a very nice thing. But to me it seems like one of those things which one writes once. And then re-writes for real :-P
07:20<@planetmaker>you'll want feedback esp. also from frosch ;-)
07:20<Korenn>Frosch's callback stuff is obviously the way to go. But this might very well do in the mean time, as it's simply an extension of the already existing code :)
07:20<Korenn>I'm just now taking some screenshots to go with the forum post, then I'll upload it.
07:21<@planetmaker>I'm not sure we want an intermediate solution
07:21<@planetmaker>they tend to make it much more difficult to implement the real thing
07:21<@Terkhen>there were also some discussions regarding the problems with the newgrf town control approach
07:21<@Terkhen>ask me later, for now bbl
07:21<@planetmaker>yes. iirc frosch linked some of them
07:24<b_jonas>I noticed openttd now doesn't show the "build statue" option for towns where I already have a statue
07:24<b_jonas>that's a nice change
07:25<norbert79>b_jonas: Was about time too... Was annyoing building two statues... I am no dictator having so many statues :)
07:25<@planetmaker>which will have to be proven ;-)
07:27<norbert79>anyway I prefer supporting new buildings, that's less egoistic :)
07:31<Pinkbeast>Also you can change your mind and demolish them later
07:33<b_jonas>norbert79: a dictator wouldn't order to demolish a football stadium to build his statue in place. that would make him impopular. and that's what company statues often work like in ottd.
07:34<norbert79>b_jonas: Well, I think you can still remember older times, even this action would be dealt of: "It's in the interest of the people removing the old, dangerous, bad shaped stadium, while we provide this new garden and such nice place for THE PEOPLE, with the statue of our well beloved leader"
07:34<norbert79>b_jonas: Remarks me of current times a bit too...
07:36<norbert79>b_jonas: It's a matter of perspective ;-)
07:36<norbert79>b_jonas: How do you dare think otherwise? :D
07:37<b_jonas>Or maybe I just let the old stadium accidentally catch fire, the firefighters not get there in time, and the building damaged so heavily that it must be torn down. All at once in several towns.
07:37<norbert79>b_jonas: Guess you saw "The wittness" as well then :)
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09:46<Elukka>"I think $40 million to $50 million is a very comfortable number for that collection," said Noel Barrett, an appraiser on PBS’s Antiques Roadshow and president of Noel Barrett Antiques & Auctions."
09:46<Elukka>it's rather bigger than that, but jesus christ
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09:51<Eddi|zuHause>recolouring: which colours to use?
09:51<@planetmaker>ty, Korenn. I'll read and look later. work work now
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>if we use one of the magic palette animation colours, will those override the colour remap?
09:52<@planetmaker>the animated colours are just (other) palette indices
09:52<Korenn>peter1138: see link ^ :)
09:53<@planetmaker>thus if you remap 0x01 -> 0xanimated then the first palette entry would iirc become animated
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, but does the palette animation work on raw colour index, or the remapped colour?
09:53<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, iirc the remapped
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean the other way around: 0xanimated => 0xnotanimated
09:53<@planetmaker>as animation is just swapping the displayed index colour
09:54<Eddi|zuHause>i mean: we should use colours that likely won't be used on the real wagon
09:54<@planetmaker>iirc the animation is bound to the index. Not to the colour attributed
09:54<@planetmaker>animation is "display 0xF0, 0xF1, 0xF2, 0xF3 (in that sequence, then restart)
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>ok, so we can use the magic animation colours, or the magic pink colours (what are those for anyway?=
09:55<@planetmaker>would be worth a try. I guess one could
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09:56<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: can you do your half-done open wagon with magic pink filling (till tomorrow or so). needn't be totally polished, just some prototype to work on
09:57<Elukka>i indeed have a half done open wagon but i didn't talk about it or post any pics!
09:57<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, if you can actually make a good suggestion on how to fill the pink entries... it might even be worth to amend the base sets
09:58<@planetmaker>or to amend the used palette actually...
09:58<@planetmaker>i.e. a 3rd palette like "extended"
09:59<@planetmaker>but I might be totally wrong in the assumption that we can just kick this pink
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: i'm prett sure you did
09:59<Elukka>oh yeah you mean the tiny coal one?
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>whatever, any open wagon will do
10:01<Elukka>is magic pink one specific color or an entire line of colors?
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10:01<Elukka>was working on that sprite but it's pretty unfinished
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>that'll do
10:02<Elukka>(that pic isn't indexed i think)
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>well, prepare it as good as you can, in an empty version, and a version filled with (different "shades" of) magic pink
10:06<Elukka>i suppose it doesn't matter if lighting or position of the brakeman's cab is wrong for now?
10:08<@planetmaker>Korenn, I couldn't resist to read :-D
10:08<Elukka>hm. does it matter whether it's bright or dark pink?
10:08<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: no, i need something to try out the recolouring, doesn't have to be pretty
10:09<@planetmaker>Korenn, generally, I think much more can be rather newgrf-controlled
10:09<Elukka>hm. still not sure which one of the pinks i want
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: indices D7 to E2
10:10<@planetmaker>I'd probably try to make the town_effect an uint32 as a bit mask, which indicates which cargo has a town effect
10:10<norbert79>Korenn: Just out of curiosty: so basically you are making the growth of a town/city depending on different resources, instead of stations/airports, etc
10:10<norbert79>Korenn: did I understand this one right?
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>(in the dos palette)
10:10<Korenn>norbert79: it's in addition to the basic station demand, which is just pitiful
10:10<norbert79>Korenn: So as I assumed... Understand
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: even though they all look the same, treat them as if they were grayscale
10:10<Elukka>is that the first row of reds/pinks there?
10:11<norbert79>Korenn: Yet this still might look the growth silly, since if the growth is depending on 1 tons of steel it would look like they would depend on 1 ton huge SUV :)
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: the two rows combined
10:11<Korenn>planetmaker: I agree that most of it can be newgrf controlled.
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>the ones that don't have a name
10:11<Korenn>norbert79: the demand amount is based on population. So a bigger population requires more cargo
10:12<norbert79>Korenn: Sure, but in start... :)
10:12<Korenn>as always, the goal is not to be realistic, it is to be fun.
10:12<norbert79>Korenn: it would not be wrong, just.. silly.. imo
10:12<Korenn>try it, it's awesome
10:12<Korenn>especially with friends
10:12<norbert79>Korenn: Well, if there are GRF's available :))
10:12<Korenn>they're RIGHT there :P
10:13<Korenn>(the grfs)
10:13<norbert79>Korenn: Well done
10:13<norbert79>Korenn: Will take a look
10:13<norbert79>Korenn: Oh, wait, do I need the changed binary too?
10:13<@planetmaker>Korenn, probably the only thing which OpenTTD would have to handle itself is some way to judge the required amounts of a cargo if it has an effect
10:13<Korenn>well, either the patch or the binary
10:14<Korenn>planetmaker: I think the required amount is actually the most important one to change to a callback?
10:14<norbert79>Korenn: Eh... So much for trying it on my Linux... Not in the mood of compiling... Oh well, home maybe
10:14<@planetmaker>The default probably should stay untouched (deliver one unit per month); The non-default could be set via newgrf, feature town. Modifyable via CB. Yes
10:14<@planetmaker>exactly :-)
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10:15<@planetmaker>Korenn, I can't tell you out of my head. But callbacks are not really difficult to implement
10:15<Korenn>I was considering a second patch setting where you can play with the demands (Any / Low / Medium / High) so that people can set them without using grfs
10:15<@planetmaker>Korenn, that would IMHO be a NewGRF parameter rather
10:16<Korenn>But you don't HAVE to have a grf to play with this.
10:16<@planetmaker>mixing openttd and newgrf config for the same thing usually is not a good way :-)
10:16<@planetmaker>Korenn, I know. But I'm not sure that's a good way :-) - it then does mix very badly with newgrfs
10:16<@planetmaker>two things controlling the same requires much overhead, is confusing and double work
10:17<norbert79>Korenn: If you change one thing in the game, especially key feature, you have to change each GRF too
10:17<norbert79>Korenn: It's this simple
10:17<norbert79>And many don't feel doing that
10:17<norbert79>unless absolutelay necessary
10:17<norbert79>like when slopes got allowed under bridges
10:18<norbert79>sloped tiles I mean
10:18<@planetmaker>thus, IMHO, the correct approach is: town growth and acceptance is totally newgrf-controlled
10:18<b_jonas>or when building tracks on terraced half-tiles got allowed
10:18<@planetmaker>the ending condition... would need other means, somehow on OpenTTD side
10:18<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: it's prolly enough just to have the | and / \ if all you're doing is testing
10:19<@planetmaker>which probably would lay the foundations for a goal framework
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: yep
10:20<norbert79>Korenn: I understand, that you would love to extend, but there is the responsibility towards other developers too
10:20<@planetmaker>Korenn, are you prepared to make this a big project?
10:21<Korenn>planetmaker: uh. I'm willing to discuss what the proper approach would be, assess how much work it is, and then have an open mind towards being able to do it :D
10:21<norbert79>Even plain graphic GRF-s need lots of testing :)
10:21<Elukka>that one's also 5 lu
10:22<@planetmaker>from my POV it's actually two different and nearly separate projects: town growth / control. And game goals
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that's not magic pink
10:22<Elukka>ookay i thought it was that
10:22<Korenn>To me though, the best features are the ones that work out of the box, and don't *require* a grf to play with.
10:22<Korenn>planetmaker: yeah, this patch was to address purely and only the town growth bit.
10:22<@planetmaker>I'm not quite clear how game goals should work and there's probably not an established way it should be done
10:22<norbert79>Elukka: Advise: if you use GIMP use the palette files, so the right colours could be applied to them
10:22<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: you must use the exact colour indices. just making it pink doesn't suffice
10:22<@planetmaker>Town growth otoh is somewhat agreed that it should be done via NewGRF
10:23<Elukka>it's all exact colors from the dos palette
10:23<Elukka>there's more than one pink though
10:23<@planetmaker>(that's where frosch's page comes from. We discussed this whole topic area a few months back)
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>yes, they all look the same, but they are all different
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>treat them as if they were grayscale
10:23<norbert79>Elukka: use the pinkest pink
10:23<Korenn>planetmaker: and a year ago, and a couple of years ago. The subject has been spooking around since my first spinoff implementation :)
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. darkest is D7, lightest is E3
10:23<norbert79>Elukka: near green
10:24<Elukka>i used the first group of pinks from the top
10:24<norbert79>that's the problem
10:24<Elukka>it's the pinkest pink! besides that unlabeled neon pink but there's only one shade of that
10:25<@planetmaker>Elukka, yes
10:25<@planetmaker>but they occupy different palette entries
10:25<norbert79>Elukka: Exactly, that's the transparency colour
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: use this image:
10:25<Elukka>i dunno the names of the colors, photoshop doesn't show them
10:25<Elukka>oh, thanks
10:25<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: it's relevant what position on the palette they have. not what they look like
10:25<Elukka>yeah, i know, i just figured it was that row
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10:27<Elukka>erm... so it's that long row of solid pink?
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>the ones that all look alike
10:28<Korenn>planetmaker: if all town growth is newgrf based, then the base openttd.grf should have the settings to allow basic play using the settings. That's not a big addition though, so certainly feasible
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10:28<Elukka>okay so despite it being the same visible color when you recolor them they'll be different shades?
10:28<norbert79>Just out of curiosity: that one row has one pink, but the colour code is the same for it, right?
10:28<norbert79>ok, answered
10:28<Elukka>bit of a bitch to get the colors right when they're all the same to me
10:28<Elukka>shading i mean
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: you can change the palette colours temporarily, as long as you change them back before saving
10:29<norbert79>well, grayscale could do the trick, though I assume the difference in the shading is the same for all the pinks, like for regulars
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10:29<@Yexo>Korenn: the baseset grf should have no town growth setting at all
10:29<@Yexo>openttd should include proper default values in the binary
10:29<Elukka>okay, the way i do this is i have color swatches of all palette colors that i pick colors from... when i'm done i convert it to indexed
10:30<@Yexo>including it in the baseset would mean that if the values in the openttd extra grf and the extra grf from opengfx differed you would have created a desync
10:30<Korenn>Yexo: planetmaker was just saying how that shouldnt be the case?
10:30<Elukka>if i do that here it'll convert all to the same pink
10:30<Elukka>so i guess i have to work with an indexed image or something
10:30<@Yexo>Korenn: I didn't read that, but than I disagree with planetmaker
10:30<norbert79>Elukka: Or first create them and then play with the pixels...
10:31<@planetmaker>uhm. I didn't talk about base grfs
10:31<Elukka>it just converts all pixels to the nearest color in the palette when i convert to indexed
10:31<@planetmaker>not in the context of town growth
10:31<Korenn>planetmaker: no, but you did talk about everything to do with town growth should be in grf
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: yes, you must do that on the indexed image, there is no way around that
10:31<@planetmaker>Korenn, yes. Newgrf
10:32<@planetmaker>which is NOT a baseset
10:32<Korenn>But town growth should also be possible using the default game.
10:32<Elukka>okay i'm just gonna do something quick and dirty
10:32<@planetmaker>A NewGRF can be used by anyone...
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: it'd be handy if you had layers in the indexed image
10:32<Korenn>which implies there should be a grf in the distro that sets them
10:32<Elukka>yeah it would
10:32<Elukka>but photoshop doesn't let you have layers on an indexed image
10:32<@planetmaker>I guess there we disagree then, Korenn
10:32<supermop>Eddi/Elukka is there a wiki page somewhere abut using those pinks?
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: switch to gimp
10:33<Elukka>not right now though
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: this would definitely be a showstopper feature for me.
10:33<@planetmaker>towngrowth should be a NewGRF thing
10:33<Elukka>did they finally make it so that it's one window instead of a separate window for everything
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: other than "don't use those pinks"?
10:33<Elukka>that was a real pain in gimp
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: i once heard they'd allow that, but not entirely sure
10:34<supermop>is there a legitimate use for them? I had assumed no, but if so it would require some documentation
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i have no idea
10:35<@planetmaker>Korenn, a somewhat long-standing principle has been: "if it can be changed by NewGRFs, then it should be changed by NewGRFs"
10:35<@Terkhen>Korenn: I consider what I'm doing now (removing the town effect "hack" for subsidies) a requisite for town control, regardless of its implementation
10:35<Korenn>planetmaker: the default gameplay is already greatly improved with towngrowth added, so writing it in a way that forces you to a) write a separate newgrf and b) include it before you can use the feature *at all*, is bad.
10:35<@Terkhen>after I'm done, towns will "know" what cargo they produce and accept for all cargo types
10:36<@planetmaker>Korenn, yes, NewGRFs can greatly improve gameplay in many aspects
10:36<@Terkhen>and town control will need a separate newgrf / goal script / whatever file is decided to be used
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: does that include the production of industries within the town?
10:36<@planetmaker>Note, that the other part, the goal judgement. Which should *not* be part of the NewGRF
10:36<@Terkhen>if it can be customized by users, OpenTTD should not include different options
10:36<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: you can already do that :P
10:37<@Terkhen>via town persistent storage
10:37<@planetmaker>That would need some goal script (framework?) or mechanism inside OpenTTD
10:37<@Terkhen>for subsidies... only house production is stored
10:37<@planetmaker>But that should be generic enough to be used on the cargos which are defined to have a town growth effect (as given by the current NewGRFs, if they're present)
10:37<Korenn>For the immediate future, I think adding town growth on its own has a far bigger chance of getting into trunk than the entire town growth challenge idea. Big patches tend to get shot down ;)
10:38<@Terkhen>in this case it's the contrary actually
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: i mean, for example food doesn't care about whether it is delivered to a town house, or to an industry in the town
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>so same should be true for production
10:38<@Terkhen>a patch that only implements a way of doing things will not be included, you will need a patch that allows to implement *anything*
10:38<@planetmaker>Korenn, well... I'll argue against this short-sighted solution.
10:38<@planetmaker>as it'll make the solution as I tried to outline MUCH more difficult. Especially on the NewGRF front
10:38<Korenn>I didn't say my patch should go into trunk as-is
10:38<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: storage of "town effect" cargos delivered remains the same
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10:39<norbert79>Elukka: Using a specific colour from a Palette under GIMP is available too, so that shall not stop you using GIMP for your sprite editing
10:39<@Yexo>Korenn: it's not so much "big patches" as well as "big patches that haven't been properly maintained, don't adhere to coding style and are not split up in managable parts" that are shot down
10:39<Korenn>I'm just saying that both town control and goals are something that I don't think are worth implementing now. As that'll take way too long
10:39<@planetmaker>Korenn, and that's exactly why I asked you whether you're ready to go a long road / take on a big project
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: so there won't be an industryset-agnostic way of getting the total amount of all cargos produced in or around the town?
10:40<@planetmaker>I'll love to see this feature. But I'll love to see it properly
10:40<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: no, for subsidies I need a house-only storage
10:40<Korenn>Yexo: exactly, and I consider the town growth the first manageable part. Which in and of itself already improves gameplay. The rest of the 'big' project can wait till later
10:41<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: maybe it would make sense to include what you want as a town NewGRF variable for town control, but it's outside of the scope of the subsidies patch
10:41<@Terkhen>the changes done in the subsidy patch should pave the road for what you want anyways
10:41<Korenn>planetmaker: I'm interested in helping / investing time in the other bits as well, but not as one big feature to be added at once, since that is way too chancy at getting rejected on small parts.
10:41<Korenn>Terkhen: which will be in trunk when?
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: thanks, you have the empty version as well?
10:42<norbert79>Elukka: Ah, nice work...
10:42<@Yexo>Korenn: that's a good approach
10:42<@Yexo>you'll always have to take the other parts into account to make sure you're not blocking them or making them significantly more difficult
10:43<Korenn>well sure, but thinking about and actually implementing are two wildly different things
10:43<@Terkhen>Korenn: as soon as I spend time to finish it
10:43<@Terkhen>lately I haven't been coding much :)
10:44<Korenn>Forgive me for sounding sceptical, but originally (years and years ago) I was holding off on doing a new towngrowth challenge 'until the new map array was done'. See where that led ;)
10:45<@Terkhen>I can't think of any other small parts; town storage is already done, subsidies are halfway done
10:45<b_jonas>new map array? har har har
10:45<@Terkhen>what is left is discussing how much control should NewGRF town control have
10:46<@Terkhen>as it is thought that it could collide too much with other aspects of the game
10:46<@planetmaker>Korenn, then start working on a goal framework
10:46<@planetmaker>nothing blocks that.
10:46<Korenn>no thanks.
10:46<@planetmaker>And it's a vital part for a any challenge
10:46<Korenn>it's not interesting without the town growth.
10:46<Korenn>motivation for coding is important :P
10:46<@planetmaker>as you need some way to determine whether something was reached...
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10:47<@planetmaker>ehm... but you need *some* way to determine if a goal was reached?
10:47<Korenn>it doensn't need a goal at all to be fun
10:47<@planetmaker>be that now town growth or year reached?
10:47<Korenn>try the current build - it's already much more interesting to develop towns
10:47<@planetmaker>hm, ok. I thought you wanted a goal attached to that.
10:47<Korenn>eventually, yep
10:47<Korenn>but initially, no
10:48<@planetmaker>then start with the generic callbacks which drive town growth
10:48<Korenn>it doesn't need it to be fun, so if leaving that part out makes the addition smaller and more likely to include, then I go for that :)
10:48<@planetmaker>make town growth newgrf-able
10:48<Korenn>yeah, callbacks I can look at
10:48<Korenn>is already on the todo list
10:50<@planetmaker>return values of interest would probably include like "do nothing", "build road", "build new building", "replace building"
10:50<@planetmaker>maybe even building type (as specified in the house newgrf specs)
10:50<Korenn>the first callback would be an amount check per cargo / town effect
10:51<Korenn>why would I even touch the growth algorithm?
10:51<@planetmaker>because that's what town growth is about?
10:51<Korenn>no, not really
10:51<Korenn>that's the execution of growth
10:51<Korenn>my patch is about the decision to grow
10:52<Korenn>it doesn't touch the growing at all
10:52<@planetmaker>:-) what do you think a "check town growth" callback would do?
10:52<b_jonas>right, so all they need to communicate is a few town variables that nudge the normal town growth algorithm?
10:52<@planetmaker>it decides on "shall I grow and if so how"
10:52<@planetmaker>the question is just which variables a newgrf then uses to make that decision
10:53<@planetmaker>and those variables - as I understood terkhen - are then all already there
10:53<Korenn>planetmaker: I disagree. all that is needed is a check to see if it meets the growth demands. Which is a numerical check.
10:53<@Terkhen>b_jonas: what is needed is to take a decision regarding "what should NewGRF town control be able to do"
10:54<@Terkhen>planetmaker: the current specs only have a "decide town growth rate" callback
10:54<@planetmaker>Terkhen, yes. I'm suggesting to enhance specs there :-)
10:55<@planetmaker>I mean... you want town control.
10:55<@Terkhen>you might want to discuss that with Alberth, for him the current ones are getting too much in the way of OpenTTD code already :P
10:55<@planetmaker>Thus you need control via newgrf-able callback whether to grow. And if so, how to grow
10:56<Korenn>planetmaker: that's totally a different feature ;)
10:57<@planetmaker>Korenn, I don't think it's a good idea to introduce yet another three specific town growth effects
10:57<@planetmaker>it should become something generic which expands the current ones
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10:57<@planetmaker>but... Terkhen knows what he does there :-)
10:57<Korenn>Sure, that's doable. but control over how towns grow is not related to that issue
10:58<@Terkhen>why three specific town growth effects?
10:58<Korenn>you're talking about the actual growth algorithm. Major focus change
10:58<Korenn>Terkhen: besides water / food / goods I've added 3 more to satisfy in towns
10:59<b_jonas>is passengers included in any of them?
11:00<Korenn>passengers are a product of doing well at town growing
11:00<b_jonas>valuables are, too
11:00<b_jonas>even accepting food is, to a small amount
11:00<Korenn>b_jonas: how so? they're industry related
11:01<Korenn>big towns produce more passengers and mail, not more other cargoes
11:01<b_jonas>small towns don't have enough houses to accept food
11:01<b_jonas>and normally only very large towns have banks so smaller towns don't accept valuablesa
11:01<Korenn>that depends on the climate and/or industries around it
11:01<b_jonas>of course, a grf can change this
11:01<Korenn>you can fund a bank / water tower
11:02<b_jonas>you can fund those, but you can't fund houses to accept food
11:02<@planetmaker>Korenn, it needs to be generic. Another person will want 7 or so. Or maybe all cargos to have an impact on town growth
11:02<@planetmaker>generalizing this will become even harder by adding three further special cargos
11:02<@Terkhen>one of the things I'm doing before subsidies is fixing how towns display demand
11:03<@Terkhen>right now, only the first cargo with a given TE is displayed (IIRC)
11:03<@planetmaker>just make "town growth" a cargo property (it is probably)
11:03<@Terkhen>planetmaker: that is handled via Town effects (TE)
11:03<Korenn>planetmaker: I agree with the first statement, but not the second. What I'm doing doesn't make changing it more difficult in the least
11:03<@planetmaker>Terkhen, yes
11:03<@planetmaker>Korenn, of course it does
11:04<@planetmaker>it doubles the amount of variables one has to deal with. And gives 20x the amount of combinatory work
11:04<@Terkhen>Korenn: I think that including code that will be removed for sure later is spending time badly
11:04<Korenn>how so? all it does is add entries to what is essentially a hard coded table. replacing the table is not made harder by adding more entries
11:04<@Terkhen>both for the coder and the reviewer
11:04<@planetmaker>Korenn, exactly. "hard coded table"
11:05<@Terkhen>should towns display all cargos with a given TE? for example: "town requires food1, food2 and food3 to grow"
11:05<@planetmaker>I'm talking about "make this table newgrf-able
11:05<@planetmaker>Terkhen, imho yes
11:05<@planetmaker>at worst it displays 32 cargos. So it be
11:05<b_jonas>also, isn't funding banks restricted to inside large towns?
11:05<@Terkhen>b_jonas: only temperate banks, and you can change that via NewGRFs
11:05<Korenn>planetmaker: saying adding these makes things harded to change later makes no sense. Currently there are lots of checks for food / water. Adding some more checks there does not make removing them later any more work. except hitting the delete button a couple more times.
11:06<Korenn>Terkhen: probably it should have an entry per TE, and show all potential cargos that satisfies them. something like "requires food1 or food2 or food3"
11:06<@Terkhen>that's exactly what I was thinking of coding
11:07<@Terkhen>I stopped with subsidies after realizing that the GUI should be fixed before I made changes to how those values are handled internally
11:07<Korenn>So you're talking about newTownEffect then?
11:07<@Terkhen>no, just about displaying cargos with a given town effect properly
11:08<Korenn>But there's only 3. And doing that now will only make changing it later harder (quote planetmaker *tongue in cheek*)
11:08<@Terkhen>what changes will it need later?
11:08<Korenn>Well, my patch wants 6 different categories for growth
11:09<Korenn>doing that in a newgrf would mean a way to define new town effects, right?
11:10<@planetmaker>Korenn, why does it need 3 new town effects?
11:11<@Terkhen>adding new town effects should be allowed IMO
11:11<Korenn>planetmaker: otherwise you can't demand that people deliver 3 more types of cargo
11:11<@planetmaker>true. But then it shouldn't be hard-coded :-)
11:12<Korenn>so newTownEffect will need a grf spec definition
11:12<@planetmaker>that's what I try to argue the whole time
11:12<Korenn>I forsee months and months of bickering -_-
11:12<b_jonas>real life months? in-game months?
11:13<@planetmaker>ingame months :-)
11:13<Korenn>real life. some people are very passionate about anything to do with grf specs
11:13<@planetmaker>that's acceptable ;-)
11:13<@planetmaker>Korenn, so? Who wants to argue it, if it's a sound spec?
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11:14<@planetmaker>just define a sane way how newgrfs can define a new towneffect. And the rest is implementation detail
11:14<@Yexo>Korenn: currently the cargo spec is coupled quite tightly to industry newgrfs. Do you already see a way to create town grfs that are not depended on specific industry newgrfs but can still change the cargoes?
11:14<@Terkhen>what changes will displaying cargos with a given town effect need later? I'm interested on that, maybe I forgot something
11:14<@Terkhen>and I hate to do work twice
11:14<@planetmaker>Terkhen, I guess a required and an already delivered amount
11:15<@Yexo><Korenn> real life. some people are very passionate about anything to do with grf specs <- that's mostly a certain guy who wants to keep ttdpatch alive
11:15<@planetmaker>two or more cargos could have the same TE
11:15<Korenn>Terkhen: it will need iterating over a dynamically allocated list of town effects
11:15<@Yexo>we don't pay him much attention here
11:15<Korenn>other than that, probably none
11:16<Korenn>so yeah, a newgrf town effect with a callback to define the demand formula would work wonders
11:16<@Terkhen>that will not need changes to my display code
11:16<@planetmaker>Korenn, exactly :-)
11:16<@Terkhen>I changed town effects so you can iterate through them
11:17<@Terkhen>so the only change will be "instead of doing TE_FOOD and TE_WATER, iterate through all town effects that actually affect growth"
11:17<Korenn>planetmaker: BUT, you need town effects for the base game to work
11:17<Korenn>so you can't force it to be newgrf only
11:17<Korenn>Terkhen: \o/
11:17<@Terkhen>you also need vehicles, but they can only be modified via newgrf :P
11:17<@planetmaker>Korenn, there are defaults, of course
11:18<@planetmaker>but that's no issue. Every newgrf aspect has defaults
11:18<@planetmaker>or nearly every
11:18<Korenn>so if we have defaults, that means we can also add defaults to have interesting town growth in the base game
11:19<@Terkhen>we could also add trams to the default game, but we didn't because that would add additional code that serves no purpose, since they can be added via NewGRF too
11:20<@planetmaker>^ what Terkhen said
11:20<Korenn>That's a good example - I personally think the base game would be better if there was a tram grf included in the distribution
11:21<Korenn>I've recently introduced a bunch of people to ottd, and they can't make heads or tails from the newgrf stuff until you give them a thorough explanation. Which means that when they download it for themselves, they miss out on key game play features that would enhance their experience.
11:22<Korenn>but that's ofcourse an entirely different discussion
11:22<@planetmaker>Korenn, but that's an entirely different thing. ^ :-)
11:22<Korenn>hah, ninjad you!
11:22<Korenn>where should I jot down notes for newTownEffect?
11:22<@planetmaker>Indeed it can be argued that there can be a default selection for NewGRFs, if nothing else for that feature was selected
11:22<@planetmaker>But it'd still be NewGRF, thus not part of the core
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11:23<b_jonas>the directional buttons for building depots can't be assigned to key shortcuts yet, right?
11:23<@planetmaker>put the notes maybe to the town control page of frosch?
11:23<b_jonas>nor is there a drag-drop button for depots so you build a depot by dragging two squares instead of by selecting a direction.
11:24<Korenn>related to this, I also think newCargo prop 18 makes no sense - it's some arbitrary number that map back to the town effect enum. If those becomes objects, it would be better to just refer to the TownEffect id.
11:25<b_jonas>I wonder, how hard would it be for the railway signal tool to highlight which half of the tile it would select, sort of like the railway build tools do?
11:26<Korenn>why is in finnish?
11:26<__ln__>Korenn: it isn't
11:26<@Terkhen>Korenn: I'm thinking that maybe town effects could get an action 0 entry, the IDs listed there now would be the defaults
11:26<@Terkhen>I can't think of any properties besides "name", though
11:27<__ln__>Korenn: that's clearly estonian.
11:27<Korenn>__ln__: okay, point to you. but why :P
11:28<@Terkhen>TrueBrain: <-
11:28<@planetmaker>it's English for me?
11:28<Korenn>Terkhen: name would be what's presented if there is no cargo attached to it?
11:29<@Terkhen>now that you mention it... I can't think of an use for name either :P
11:29<b_jonas>it shows up as mixed English and some other language to me
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11:29<@Terkhen>maybe modifying OpenTTD for taking into account any possible ID would be enough
11:30<@Terkhen>that change would come along with NewGRF town control, as it is useless without it
11:30<Korenn>Other things TownEffects need: - whether or not it is a growth demand (there are sure to be other effects in the future?) - callback for demand calculation
11:30<@Terkhen>then the game would need a way to know "what town effects should be displayed"
11:31<b_jonas>but I don't think it's Estonian
11:31<b_jonas>wait, it could be
11:31<b_jonas>okay, I guess it is a mix of English and Estonian
11:31<__ln__>b_jonas: well what does the first field say?
11:32<TrueBrain>(returning the favour :P)
11:32<b_jonas>__ln__: "Kasutajatunnus:"
11:32<@Terkhen>I assume it appears in english for you :P
11:32<__ln__>b_jonas: ok, and that is indeed estonian.
11:32<TrueBrain>nope, it doesnt
11:33<@Terkhen>Korenn: NewGRF town control would allow you to base town growth in anything, not only on cargos with town effects
11:34<@Terkhen>you could increase growth in towns with an odd number of houses, for example :P
11:34<TrueBrain>Terkhen: what I meant to point out, I dont mind being highlighted, at least also say why
11:34<TrueBrain>Terkhen: as I am not in a habbit reading ... 30 lines of text in the hope to discover why I got highlighted :)
11:34<@Terkhen>so I'm not sure if showing town effects always would be a good option, other people might want to show only their custom text
11:35<Korenn>Terkhen: but by demanding town control in newgrf you're upping the ante for required implementation and code impact
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11:36<@planetmaker>Korenn, requiring it as NewGRF reduces actually the code impact. And greatly enhances versatility
11:37<@planetmaker>from an openttd code base pov
11:38<@planetmaker>Terkhen, maybe a separate tab like vehicle detail view?
11:38<Korenn>in the long run, sure. But there is no such thing as newgrf town control yet
11:38<@planetmaker>and only a summary list of "blah requires this month: blubber, garnix, something and irgendwas
11:38<@planetmaker>w/o texts or so
11:39<@planetmaker>Korenn, which is exactly what _you_ want though
11:39<@planetmaker>that's you only task, if you want town growth / control. It's the same thing
11:39<Korenn>no, what I want is newTownEffects, with a callback to set the amount of that cargo group required
11:39<@planetmaker>which is a subset of town control
11:40<Korenn>The rest isn't interesting
11:40<Korenn>to me ;)
11:41<@planetmaker>well. You know now which way is interesting for us ;-)
11:41<@planetmaker>(the newgrf way)
11:42<@planetmaker>yes, it comes with the cost, that the coding work needed now for you to get your desired result is more
11:42<@planetmaker>it comes with the price that it has a good chance of hitting trunk ;-)
11:43<@planetmaker>the direct path is not always the quickest ;-)
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11:44<@planetmaker>sometimes window focus upon mouse-over is not the best thing ;-)
11:44<@Terkhen>TrueBrain: noted, sorry :)
11:45<@Terkhen>planetmaker: I'm not sure
11:45<@Terkhen>that's why I'm doing subsidies, I'm not sure about anything regarding town control :P
11:46<@planetmaker>it's also needed for TAI ;-)
11:46<@planetmaker>currently I consider that newgrf broken as towns grow endless roads once they reached a certain town
11:47<@planetmaker>it's tricky terrain, I agree :-)
11:47<@planetmaker>it's very near openttd's core ;-)
11:47<@Yexo>wrt TAI you might as well regard openttd broken that it grows roads while it can't build any houses
11:48<@planetmaker>well. But that's a valid state also for small towns.
11:48<@planetmaker>where building a road will lead (again) to a solution to be able to build houses
11:48<@planetmaker>as such solving that on the openttd-side of town growth is rather tricky
11:49<Elukka> translate turns fleischmann to 'flesh of man'
11:49<@Terkhen>IIRC OpenTTD tries to build houses first, and after that roads
11:49<supermop>i prefer Meat Man
11:50<@Terkhen>maybe it should not build any more roads after N successful roads built
11:50<@Terkhen>that should be a small fix :P
11:51<b_jonas>Terkhen: would that mean I can completely stop a town growing by removing a lot of roads?
11:51<@Terkhen>no, that would mean that after the town builds N roads without being able to build a house it will stop trying to build roads
11:52<@Terkhen>it will still try to build houses
11:52<b_jonas>bit if I remove most roads, it can't build houses, because usually it only wants to build houses next to roads
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>TaI should not mark towns "villages" when the game thinks they're "cities".
11:52<@Terkhen>maybe it should check the cause of not being able to build houses... and only build roads if the cause is "lack of space"
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11:53<b_jonas>though of course, you can already stop a town from growing by removing all its roads and houses
11:53<b_jonas>so that might not be such a big problem
11:53<@planetmaker>in any case: in the absence of a goal framework which could in principle also have access to town control I still think they're a good addition to NewGRFs
11:56<b_jonas>planetmaker: if you read that line up to just before "town", it sounds like marketing-dpeach
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12:04<b_jonas>I wonder how I should place depots in this line
12:04<b_jonas>if I put depots at only one place, I think trains will try to turn back to it before the station farther to it
12:04<b_jonas>if I make trains always enter the depots in each round, that wastes too much time
12:06<b_jonas>maybe I should put a place with depots on both sides of the line
12:07<b_jonas>so that trains never have to turn back
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>use "service at" orders
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>and waypoints right before the depot
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>so <waypoint>-<signal>-<switch off mainline>-<depot>-<switch back on main line>
12:15<b_jonas>why not just "service at nearest" orders
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>and "go via waypoint" "service at depot"
12:15<b_jonas>so I have the layout like station A -> depots -> station B ------> A
12:15<b_jonas>and make the order A -> service nearest -> B ->
12:16<b_jonas>then they won't try to service themselves on the B->A route so they won't turn back
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>that should work, somewhat
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12:25<b_jonas>my problem with "service at" orders is that a single depot could be too few
12:25<b_jonas>though that could be solved by using a conditional order to a waypoint and a service nearest order
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12:34<b_jonas>is there a page on the wiki describing "Property Maintenance" costs?
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12:43<b_jonas>should I combine eGRVTS and Long vehicles?
12:45<@planetmaker>nothing which could stop you. You'll simply have MANY vehicles then
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12:48<b_jonas>also, other than the Japanese Landscape, what GRFs are there that replace landscape (like farms)?
12:48<b_jonas>I like Japanese Landscape, but I'm willing to try others
12:49<b_jonas>okay, now I'm trying out these grfs by starting games in later years just to see what vehicles I get
12:51<Rubidium>mars replacement?
12:52<b_jonas>Rubidium: er no, not something drastical like that, sorry
12:53<@planetmaker>I guess you don't count ogfx+landscape as on the landscape side mostly removes the grids (and allows arctic climate)
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12:54<b_jonas>yes, I wouldn't count that one
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12:57<b_jonas>I'll also experiment with the map generator settings a bit
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13:02<b_jonas>terrain type, smoothness, variety distribution, sea level
13:02*planetmaker usually plays with lots of water. medium .. .high variety distribution, mountanous
13:05<b_jonas>what smoothness?
13:05<V453000>hilly, rough is great
13:05<b_jonas>what does smoothness even do?
13:05<V453000>with variety distribution off
13:05<@planetmaker>rough :-)
13:05<V453000>well, see for yourself what does it do :) I recommend to turn distribution off so it is visible better
13:05<@planetmaker>smooth is kinda boring
13:07<V453000>yeah, smooth sucks :(
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13:12<Rubidium>I guess I should run a server with non-smooth, no foundations and limit terraforming to one bit a tick ;)
13:12<Rubidium>that'll be fun! ;)
13:14<@planetmaker>I guess the "no foundations" setting is clearly one which could do w/o a GUI option (dunno whether it has)
13:14<V453000>just like bridges over diagonals etc eh :P
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13:18<@planetmaker>quak :-)
13:18<frosch123>moin :)
13:19<@planetmaker> <-- we should make up our mind, frosch123, how we want town control accessed and addressed
13:20<frosch123>well, food has definitely on a higher priority :)
13:22<@planetmaker>yeah... food probably has a quite high frosch-effect ;-)
13:22<@planetmaker>enjoy :-)
13:36<frosch123>planetmaker: it only had that effect for the first half of my life up to now, till then it has more a broad-effect
13:36<@planetmaker>haha :-)
13:36<@planetmaker>I know that well :-)
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13:41<Korenn>b_jonas: personally, I've reached the end of 'interestingness' in the terrain generator. I now play using a preselected heightmap, which is then randomly filled with towns and industries
13:42<b_jonas>Korenn: I'm not going for interestingness, I just want to test what settings I prefer so that I'm not stuck with a bad landscape for a hundred in-game years
13:42<b_jonas>I decided I wanted fewer industries than in the previous game, so I set industries to Normal (it was High)
13:43<b_jonas>but I still need to decide the rest of the settings
13:43<Korenn>on our daylength-10 server, it becomes even more important that the map is nice, cause you'll be stuck with it for 3 weeks :P
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r23015 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: persian - 2 changes by Peymanpn
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 3 changes by Rubidium
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: slovak - 29 changes by klingacik
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: welsh - 25 changes by kazzie
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13:48<@peter1138>hmm, what easy to access windows have a horizontal scrollbar?
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13:50<frosch123>peter1138: use a savegame with a depot in the middle of the screen and a long train in it
14:03<Korenn>Terkhen: hm. if the growth rate is dependent on a callback like defined by Frosch, there isn't enough feedback to the player. Feedback on how much you still have to transport in order to reach the town demands is crucial. Any ideas on that?
14:04<frosch123>Korenn: replace "player" with "ai" in that sentence :)
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14:06<frosch123>yay, i have been around here for 4 years. and all that time herzogdexter kept on quitting and rejoining
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14:10<b_jonas>in the UKRS2 set, when do I need the break van?
14:11<b_jonas>the cars don't seem to mention whether they have continuous brake
14:13<Korenn>frosch123: I'm reading up on - I don't see a var to get population for the _current_ town?
14:14<Korenn>ah, 82
14:14<Korenn>nvm, I didn't scroll all the way down :P
14:14<frosch123>Korenn: 80+x variables are already present
14:14<frosch123>they are inherited from ttd, that's why they are so weird
14:14<Korenn>ahhhhhh ok
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14:15<frosch123>40 and 41 are also already present
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14:15<frosch123>though i am not sure what ttdp guy was so braindead to add 41
14:16<Korenn>I'm trying to map out what the minimal implementation requirements would be to do my patch entirely in newgrf
14:16<Korenn>why is 41 braindead? having the index seems useful to me
14:17<frosch123>for what? as some kind of random value?
14:18<Korenn>yeah, town index modulo some value to reliably select some towns for other calculations
14:20<Korenn>frosch123: a variable to get the amount of a certain type of building might also be useful?
14:20<Korenn>though that's not stored ;)
14:20<frosch123>the type of buildings are completely newgrf defined
14:21<frosch123>and a main goal of the towngrowth spec was to not tie houses and industries and towngrowth together
14:22<Korenn>ah, right - all the industry related vars are through cargo
14:22<frosch123>note that there was the idea of shared newgrf registers for inter-newgrf communication. but we skipped implementing it to avoid trouble with stupid grf authors
14:24<Korenn>frosch123: the 'get amount of industries that accept / produce a cargo' seems nice, but shouldn't that one should also exist for town houses? since those can also determine acceptance
14:24<@planetmaker>newgrf authors only make our life a PITA :-P
14:25<Korenn>I can imagine a grf set that adds petrol stations as buildings, and if those are present, requires petrol to be delivered to the station in order for the town to grow
14:25<Korenn>delivered to the town*
14:25<@planetmaker>petrol stations as houses already exist in ecs newgrfs
14:26<supermop>and swedish houses
14:26<@planetmaker>really? do they accept petrol there?
14:26<supermop>they do iff you are playing with firs
14:26<@planetmaker>hm. I never noticed :-)
14:26<Korenn>planetmaker: I know, which makes my example better :P
14:26<@planetmaker>And I thought I knew my favourite house set ;-)
14:26<supermop>they dont show up if you are not
14:27<supermop>they look nice, so i load firs with .se houses even if i am playing with no industries
14:27<@planetmaker>Korenn: as frosch hinted at: it might be nicer to have a separate town growth newgrf which just checks that petrol is delivered *somewhere* within that town's influence. But yes, makes perfect sense
14:28<frosch123>Korenn: i do not know how to implement such a variable effectively
14:28<frosch123>the acceptance of houses is a bit fishy :p
14:30<Korenn>and iterating over the map can't be nice ;)
14:31<frosch123>iirc michi_cc's cargodest had some quadtree-like cache of tile-acceptance
14:31<Korenn>planetmaker: right, but in this scenario you don't want to limit growth if there isn't a possibility of delivering petrol in that town
14:31<@planetmaker>of course. But from the newgrf side that's no issue.
14:31<@planetmaker>one just checks whether petrol is a valid cargo
14:34<Korenn>planetmaker: but petrol stations may or may not be present in the town, or may or may not be yet introduced in time
14:35<+michi_cc>It has, even if it is no quad-tree, but just a simple 2d array :) (see and the previous commit)
14:35<@planetmaker>yes. All that is in principle available to newgrfs.
14:36<@planetmaker>nice, michi_cc :-)
14:37<+michi_cc>Next commit adds the same for industries respecting industry tiles
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14:55<@planetmaker> <-- :-D I lost somewhere some baseset sprites :-)
15:01<@planetmaker>exactly 100 sprites of tropical houses ;-)
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15:08<V453000>what is that pm :D
15:08<andythenorth>guten abend
15:08<b_jonas>aren't those trees with snow?
15:09<@planetmaker>b_jonas: it's arctic climate ;-)
15:09<@planetmaker> <-- as laugh I posted them here ;-)
15:10<@planetmaker>hello andythenorth
15:15<b_jonas>I'll try a game with UKRS2. I'll see how it goes.
15:15<b_jonas>Also, my company color won't be red this time.
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15:52<Korenn>andythenorth: have a look at , it works really well with FIRS :)
15:53<andythenorth>ooh :)
15:54<andythenorth>so building materials get a purpose
15:54<@Terkhen>frosch123: but we have town persistent registers :P
15:54<@Terkhen>I still wonder what would happen if we allowed write access
15:54<@Terkhen>I think that my mind is not able to conceive the madness that would come
15:56<@Terkhen>and the patches posted by michi_cc are inside my subsidies queue too, they are IMO a good solution for that too :)
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15:57<Korenn>andythenorth: yep! and alcohol too
15:57<frosch123>sometimes it is better to not try what might happen :p
15:57<Korenn>which is a bitch to create
15:57<Korenn>so nicely challenging :)
16:01<Priski>I'm trying to invite some local friends for some LAN party and OpenTTD, man would that be great
16:02<Priski>too bad I have no laptop :(
16:02<@planetmaker>carry desktops ;-)
16:03<@Terkhen>oooh, old school lan parties
16:03<@Terkhen>I miss them
16:03<@Terkhen>carrying my computer in a suit case
16:03<b_jonas>why does it say that my "4 Horse Carriage" (from eGRVTS I think) can't go to a bus station?
16:03<b_jonas>what kind of station does it want?
16:03<@Terkhen>b_jonas: articulated vehicles can only go to drive through stations
16:03<supermop>drive through
16:03<@planetmaker>b_jonas: it's an articulated vehicle. Use drive-through
16:04<b_jonas>does "articulated" mean it bends in the middle?
16:04<b_jonas>apparently it does
16:04<andythenorth>told you that was a pita
16:04<@planetmaker>b_jonas: it means a vehicle consisting of several parts
16:05<andythenorth>lets eliminate drive-into road stops
16:05<andythenorth>they're just trouble
16:05<b_jonas>no, let's keep them
16:05<@Terkhen>fix road vehicle movement!
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16:05<Korenn>gief multiple tile sized road stops
16:06<Priski>planetmaker: I could carry my desktop, I have wireless net and easy to carry LCD screen but my desktop....
16:06<Korenn>with newgrf support
16:06<Priski>Dang thing weight like hell
16:06<Priski>has almost 1cm thing steel plate in front
16:07<Korenn>Priski: your neighbourhood prone to drive by shootings or something?
16:08<@planetmaker>I call that "bullet proof", Priski ;-)
16:08<b_jonas>now why is it walking at 1 km/h only?
16:08<Korenn>b_jonas: turn off realistic acceleration for road vehicles
16:08<Priski>no it has lock so all buttons etc can be locked so you cant fiddle anything if thing is bolted to ground
16:09<b_jonas>Korenn: ah
16:09<Priski>like small door, I can't seem to remeber words to describe this thing properly
16:09<b_jonas>why do I have to turn it off?
16:10<b_jonas>and yes, that worked
16:10<b_jonas>now it's going normal speed (25 km/h)
16:10<Korenn>b_jonas: because horses currently have 0 hp
16:10<Korenn>which breaks the formula
16:11<Priski>Korenn: well no, altough one guy was arrested at park with full sized katana some time ago
16:11<@Terkhen>b_jonas: use eGRVTS2
16:11<@Terkhen>it has fixed values for realistic acceleration :)
16:12<Priski>damn where is my finnish to english dictionary software, I cannot form proper sentences without it :(
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16:13<b_jonas>Terkhen: does that exist? where?
16:14<@Terkhen>it is the second beta actually
16:14<@Terkhen>I tried it for a bit and I didn't notice any obvious problems
16:14<@Terkhen>Zephyris is looking for more testing so it will help him if you play with EGRVTS2 and give him feedback about it :)
16:14<andythenorth>why can't we kill drive-into stops?
16:15<@Terkhen>because some people find them useful
16:15<@Terkhen>why do you need to kill them? just ignore them
16:15<b_jonas>Terkhen: but taht says "trucks only"
16:16<b_jonas>I like drive-into stations
16:16<@Terkhen>b_jonas: yes, you will need a different set for buses
16:17<andythenorth>they're a source of false bugs
16:17*planetmaker finds drive-into stops very useful
16:17<andythenorth>but they're broken
16:17<@planetmaker>rather I want articulated vehicles using them, too
16:17<andythenorth>they can't
16:17<b_jonas>what symmetry does ottd require for railway cars in grfs?
16:17<@Terkhen>they can be too long for drive-into stops
16:17<@planetmaker>I use them surely half of the time
16:17<@Terkhen>so that's not an option
16:18<@planetmaker>I know that they can be too long...
16:18<@planetmaker>but they can be too long for dtrs, too
16:21<V453000>town does grow when I transport only mail, right?
16:22<@planetmaker>you just have to service some stations
16:25<V453000>that is what I thought :) thanks
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16:36<@Terkhen>good night
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16:54*andythenorth has some truck issues
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17:26<Eddi|zuHause># nur leider, leider sagt dir keiner deiner Neider bescheid
17:26<Eddi|zuHause># wie geht es weiter, weiter, hast du erstmal alles erreicht
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17:39<b_jonas>I'm trying a ship to truck feeder service
17:39<b_jonas>of iron ore
17:40<b_jonas>I'm not sure whether it's a good idea, but we'll see
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17:43<weirdy>Hey ho, I have yet another question
17:44<weirdy>I started a multiplayer game and created two companies, however, it would appear I can't merge them together using the share's system...
17:45<weirdy>Is there any other way to merge two companies?
17:45<@planetmaker>bancrupt one and buy it then
17:47<weirdy>Do you know why this feature was removed, planetmaker?
17:47<@Yexo>it was never there
17:47<@Yexo>not in multiplayer anyway
17:47<weirdy>my bad then
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17:59<weirdy>When does a company get offered for sale?
17:59<@planetmaker>4 consecutive starts of a qarter at a bank balance < 0
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17:59<@Yexo>wasn't it 3?
17:59<@Yexo>and I'm not sure if it actually works in MP
17:59<@planetmaker>sold on the 4th ;-)
18:00<weirdy>I'm in an SP game now
18:00<@Yexo>ah, right :)
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18:04<weirdy>Thanks again guys
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18:11<Korenn>Yexo, buying bankrupt companies works just fine in MP :)
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18:55<Eddi|zuHause>pirate party now at 9% in federal election polls
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>and 4th largest party
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19:12<+michi_cc>The Bundestrojaner is probably not to their disadvantage...
19:14<@planetmaker>its our all disadvantage :-(
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19:17<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: the interesting part about this is that the polls were taken before this trojan incident
19:18<@planetmaker>the sad thing about this news is actually: the existance and capabilities of that trojan are no surprise at all
19:19<+michi_cc>Next poll might see an even higher number then. And of course we get a nice clash between justice ministry (FDP) and interior ministry (CDU/CSU) as well.
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>if there were elections now, neither "side" would have a majority
19:21<@planetmaker>"Zünglein an der Waage"
19:22<+michi_cc>Really no surprise at all, seeing that basically everybody can buy trojan frameworks like Zeus together with many customizations for specific targets (online banking, password theft etc.)
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19:24<@planetmaker>time for bed. good night
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---Logclosed Tue Oct 11 00:00:34 2011