| --- | Log | opened Wed Oct 12 00:00:35 2011 |
| 00:04 | <supermop> | should i make a suggestion in the suggestion forum, or would that annoy people? |
| 00:17 | <@planetmaker> | you can post all kind of phantasies and wishlists in the suggestions forum ;-) |
| 00:18 | <supermop> | are you familiar with the kompact label in Koln, planetmaker? |
| 00:18 | <@planetmaker> | with what? |
| 00:19 | <@planetmaker> | (the answer thus is probably 'no' ;-) ) |
| 00:19 | <supermop> | its a german music label |
| 00:19 | <@planetmaker> | never heart of it |
| 00:19 | <@planetmaker> | but I'm a music-industry-agnostic |
| 00:19 | <supermop> | its fairly niche, so it would be odd if you had |
| 00:19 | <supermop> | its a small shop |
| 00:20 | <supermop> | they do mostly minimalist electronic |
| 00:20 | <supermop> | (shop meaning company, not an actual record shop) |
| 00:22 | <supermop> | I sometimes feel like quite the fish out of water in OTTD land |
| 00:24 | <@planetmaker> | hehe :-) |
| 00:24 | <@planetmaker> | for all the boundaries you find? |
| 00:26 | <supermop> | i meant demographically |
| 00:26 | <supermop> | I have no programming background |
| 00:27 | <supermop> | seem to have a different taste graphically to most users/contributors etc |
| 00:27 | <@planetmaker> | there's quite a few who don't have an IT background |
| 00:27 | <@planetmaker> | (i.e. everything I know there is mostly self-taught) |
| 00:28 | <supermop> | i like to approach it from a design/planning standpoint |
| 00:28 | <@planetmaker> | s/i.e./e.g./ |
| 00:28 | <@planetmaker> | damn abbreviations ;-) |
| 00:28 | <supermop> | but i run into walls with coding |
| 00:29 | <supermop> | yes we should just merge ie and eg to save on misuse and embarassment |
| 00:29 | <supermop> | also it seems everyone active here is older than I, but in the tycoon channel, i am older than everyone there |
| 00:33 | <@planetmaker> | hm, everyone here _older_ than you? That'd be... interesting. |
| 00:33 | <@planetmaker> | Though it depends on how old you are, of course |
| 00:34 | <supermop> | just an impression i get |
| 00:34 | <supermop> | I guess you guys come across and having your act together |
| 00:34 | <supermop> | s/and/as |
| 00:34 | <@planetmaker> | please rephrase |
| 00:35 | <@planetmaker> | (I don't understand that wording) |
| 00:35 | <supermop> | hmm having your act together... having your ducks in a row |
| 00:35 | <@planetmaker> | hm... I see. Too sane ;-) |
| 00:36 | <supermop> | i guess it implies a copetence and organization |
| 00:36 | <supermop> | along with so coherent motivation or vision |
| 00:36 | <supermop> | *some |
| 00:36 | <supermop> | competence |
| 00:37 | <@planetmaker> | I guess it's a bit of self-selection that those people with a somewhat common vision of the game gather |
| 00:38 | <supermop> | so, someone who knows what they want to be doing, and made an effort to be capable of doing it |
| 00:39 | <@planetmaker> | well... it's how open-source works: those who want to do something, just do it. And share it |
| 00:39 | <supermop> | yeah, it seems very mature |
| 00:40 | <supermop> | so i guess i got them impression that you were all older than me because you were able to make that happen |
| 00:42 | <@planetmaker> | I might well be older than you. But then I'm probably one of the oldest ones around in this channel ;-) |
| 00:42 | <supermop> | heh |
| 00:44 | <supermop> | ok, well I should be going to bed, have a conference call with London early in the morning |
| 00:44 | <supermop> | talk to you later |
| 00:44 | <@planetmaker> | bye |
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| 02:38 | <Elukka> | trains trains trains |
| 02:38 | <Elukka> | http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/trackplan-1.png |
| 02:41 | <Elukka> | really edging the limit of how much of the table i want to fill up with track here... |
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| 03:01 | <@Terkhen> | good morning |
| 03:02 | <@planetmaker> | moin Terkhen |
| 03:18 | <appe> | morning |
| 03:18 | <appe> | i was working a bit on the sounds yesterday |
| 03:18 | <appe> | i havent made anything yet, though i think i have decided how to acheive this |
| 03:19 | <appe> | i had two options. use modern tools (with samples) to create the sounds - or simply synthesize and sculpt white analogue noise down to the individual sounds. |
| 03:20 | <appe> | the guy in me that's not getting paid with a dayjob wants option #1, the artist in me wants option #2. |
| 03:22 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23025 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Support resized company colour icon in company key window. |
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| 03:27 | <norbert79> | appe: I would prefer 1... Even if I work creating new sounds or effects or even something for a game for my own amusement, I use 1 |
| 03:28 | <norbert79> | appe: For example I have spent some time for creating a sirene sound for an addon for Mafia 1 (Hungarian Mafia), because there was no included. So I have spent some time fuigring out what type of sirenes were used back then and got a sample recording too, which I have cut, looped, etc, and the end result was fantastic :) |
| 03:29 | <norbert79> | appe: I did the same for Modern Mafia mod too, also sirene, but had to cut from a 5 minutes long recording :) |
| 03:29 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79: then go ahead and create (also) sounds for OpenTTD |
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| 03:30 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Was merely about telling how well #1 could work ;-) appe wanted to create new sounds, not me ;-) |
| 03:31 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: I am fine with current ones... :) |
| 03:32 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Basically the problem I would have with creating new sounds for OpenTTD would be the fact, that I am way too used to the original ones... |
| 03:32 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Wouldn't be able having new ideas |
| 03:40 | <appe> | norbert79: that sounds neat |
| 03:40 | <appe> | ill think about it |
| 03:41 | <norbert79> | appe: Synthetising sounds might also work, but it would still feel like an instant soup. |
| 03:41 | <norbert79> | appe: Nice, good, but still it feels different. |
| 03:42 | <norbert79> | appe: I am a rookie on understanding sound, transforming, playing with tricks, but even audacity provides so many cool features, that if I was able recreating certain things well, just think about it what a pro could do... :) |
| 03:45 | <appe> | hehe |
| 03:45 | <appe> | well, i do have the gear to actually record new stuff. |
| 03:46 | <norbert79> | appe: Well, I think you got your answer... :) You just need to find the perfect candidates for the effects |
| 03:47 | <appe> | :) |
| 03:47 | <appe> | btw, here's a track i made a few years ago with the same gear i think ill use now |
| 03:47 | <appe> | http://fac.dndr.se/poo/appe_-_the_cassette_years-2007/01-appe_cassette-years_brain.mp3 |
| 03:48 | <norbert79> | appe: You already shared this one ;-) |
| 03:49 | <norbert79> | appe: But yeah, there you go, you are all set |
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| 03:53 | <appe> | oh |
| 03:55 | <V453000> | nature comes to openttd? :D |
| 03:55 | <V453000> | :p |
| 03:56 | <appe> | hehe |
| 03:57 | <@planetmaker> | appe: you're aware that sound files are wav files? |
| 03:57 | <appe> | yes, of course? |
| 03:57 | <@planetmaker> | ok :-) |
| 03:58 | <norbert79> | unless one creates a cat file :) |
| 03:58 | <@planetmaker> | eh? |
| 03:58 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: sample.cat |
| 03:58 | <@planetmaker> | yes? |
| 03:58 | <@planetmaker> | what about that? |
| 03:58 | <norbert79> | <planetmaker> appe: you're aware that sound files are wav files? |
| 03:59 | <norbert79> | easier compacting it into one file |
| 03:59 | <norbert79> | just saying |
| 03:59 | <appe> | planetmaker: i dont really follow. |
| 03:59 | <@peter1138> | what's the relevance of being wav files? |
| 03:59 | <appe> | planetmaker: why do you ask? :) |
| 03:59 | <@planetmaker> | appe: I just asked as you linked an mp3 :-) |
| 03:59 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: he did, but it was merely an example of his work :) |
| 03:59 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: unrelated to the game |
| 03:59 | <appe> | planetmaker: that's music, and not related to any ttd work. |
| 03:59 | <@planetmaker> | ok ok :-) |
| 04:00 | <@planetmaker> | I just want to make sure that no-one is disappointed to find out the effort was in vain |
| 04:00 | <@planetmaker> | you being aware of the formats thus is good :-) |
| 04:00 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Like transforming an mp3 to wav would be impossible ;-) |
| 04:01 | <@planetmaker> | to midi for music is... difficult |
| 04:01 | <@planetmaker> | at least I lack the tools |
| 04:01 | <@peter1138> | weird. my sound doesn't work when i download and play it... on the wrong machine... |
| 04:01 | <norbert79> | Pity that the game never wanted to support streams, like s3m, IT, XM |
| 04:01 | <@peter1138> | they're not streams |
| 04:02 | <@planetmaker> | well... why streams? |
| 04:02 | <norbert79> | tracker files, whatever, comes from perspective how you look at them |
| 04:02 | <@planetmaker> | you want to maintain an openttd music radio? |
| 04:02 | <@planetmaker> | it would to some degree make sense to support other music file formats than midi |
| 04:02 | <norbert79> | I also made some music back then, lost them all, but still in lovew with the good old MOD, S3M, IT and XM formats :) |
| 04:03 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Well, the libraries are there |
| 04:03 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: libmikmod |
| 04:03 | <@planetmaker> | there are many libraries for many formats |
| 04:03 | <norbert79> | sure, but mikmod supports all sort of such |
| 04:03 | <@planetmaker> | there are far less people who use them. and use them in a manner that it fits the game |
| 04:04 | <norbert79> | "Supported file formats include mod, stm, s3m, mtm, xm, and it" |
| 04:04 | <@peter1138> | no point in supporting those, you might as well just support ogg vorbis |
| 04:04 | <norbert79> | true, yet in size these are way smaller |
| 04:04 | <@peter1138> | and there's already patches for that |
| 04:04 | <appe> | making the sfx stuff seems really neat. but i can say i kind of pooped my pants when i started thinking about making an openttd tron soundtrack. |
| 04:04 | <norbert79> | pity it never got into main |
| 04:05 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79: I bet I have not seen a file for most of those formats |
| 04:05 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: The files are not to be blamed because of this ;-) |
| 04:05 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79: no. But it tells how common they are |
| 04:05 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: One game, which used an own format of MOD was Crusader - No Remorse for example |
| 04:06 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Well, guess you never felt connected tom any scene movement then... It was/is well beloved there, and they provide the easiest tools for beginner composers |
| 04:07 | <Korenn> | norbert79: I've seen and used all of those file formats in the past |
| 04:07 | <norbert79> | MIDI is just PITA, becuase you rely on your soundcard or SF2 samples, which are hard to get/make, where Fasttracker (XM) provides the possibility using wav samples |
| 04:07 | <norbert79> | Korenn: At least one who is familiar with it :) |
| 04:07 | <Korenn> | yep, and it guarantees that it sounds the same on all systems |
| 04:07 | <norbert79> | exactly |
| 04:08 | <norbert79> | while MIDI can make some weird things... SF2 might not contain right samples you need for example |
| 04:08 | <Korenn> | But peter1138 is right, might as well just support ogg vorbis and be done with it |
| 04:08 | <norbert79> | Korenn: Sure, but transforming the title music into OGG would make a rather huge file, while the same in IT for example would be almost as big as the current MIDI |
| 04:09 | <norbert79> | ok, a bit bigger, because of the samples, but way smaller, than the OGG |
| 04:09 | <Korenn> | IT was... Infinity Trigger, right? |
| 04:09 | <norbert79> | Impulse Tracker |
| 04:09 | <Korenn> | tracker* |
| 04:09 | <Korenn> | oh derp yes |
| 04:09 | <Korenn> | long time ago :P |
| 04:10 | <norbert79> | I can clearly remember the fight between Fasttracker users and Impulse Tracker fans :)) |
| 04:10 | <appe> | trackers :( |
| 04:10 | <Korenn> | I only wrote the reader bits for in my programs, they were much the same there (import a lib) |
| 04:10 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79: adding support for any other music format would not mean to remove support for midi... |
| 04:10 | <@planetmaker> | thus nothing would need conversion |
| 04:11 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Right, forgat |
| 04:11 | <norbert79> | so nothing against supportin g tracker formats then, right? ;-) |
| 04:11 | <@Terkhen> | yes, supporting only heavy formats such as ogg or mp3 is not an option for distribution, it would need to support ogg/mp3/whatever and still midi |
| 04:11 | <@peter1138> | argument against supporting anythign extra is "use your usual media player" |
| 04:11 | <@planetmaker> | yeah |
| 04:12 | <@Terkhen> | that's what I was going to say, I haven't used the music in OpenTTD in ages :P |
| 04:12 | <@peter1138> | http://i.imgur.com/UDUXJ.png |
| 04:12 | <@peter1138> | trudat |
| 04:12 | <@planetmaker> | Though one can argue that a better "out of the box" experience wrt sound might be nicer |
| 04:12 | <@peter1138> | it's only a bit pants on linux |
| 04:12 | <@peter1138> | and only because i never finished the sdlmixer patch |
| 04:12 | <@Terkhen> | I just have the mp3 version of the original soundtrack that someone did between the rest of my music :P |
| 04:12 | <norbert79> | peter1138: Pity... Even German Truck Simulator has MP3, OGG support, including support for Internet MP3 streams too. Not saying OpenTTD would need it, just saying, that some do support additional methods, than "regular music player" |
| 04:13 | <@peter1138> | like people wanting the gui to support skinning |
| 04:13 | <@peter1138> | why... it's game, not a desktop environment |
| 04:13 | <norbert79> | peter1138: Because it's more attractive having it inside the game, not needed to launch one more application... |
| 04:14 | <norbert79> | peter1138: I prefer it... And as I could see from GTS players, they all love it |
| 04:14 | <norbert79> | peter1138: got always asked, how I did enable it |
| 04:14 | <@Terkhen> | meh, that image reminded me that all of the games I'm expecting will be coming with loads of stupid DLC |
| 04:15 | <@peter1138> | sorry |
| 04:15 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Aye, this new method of DLC is just abusing gameplay, and making players life a hell |
| 04:15 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Mafia 2 is a good example for that |
| 04:15 | <@Terkhen> | for example, I'm completely ignoring Civilization IV |
| 04:15 | <@Terkhen> | sorry, V |
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| 04:15 | <@Terkhen> | they released a GOTY recently and even that is missing some DLC |
| 04:16 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Civ 5? |
| 04:16 | <@Terkhen> | yes |
| 04:16 | <norbert79> | Understand |
| 04:16 | <norbert79> | The best DLC collection well sold was Heroes 3 Complete. All patched up, having all addons... |
| 04:16 | <Ammler> | <Eddi|zuHause> [03:50:51] Ammler: it's quite annoying that the error log in the ticket throws 404 after a new version was compiled <-- that means, the error is resolved |
| 04:16 | <@Terkhen> | mass effect 2 was completely loaded with DLC and mass effect 3 will likely be worse |
| 04:16 | <@Terkhen> | at least portal 2 DLC is free and updates automatically but in general... meh |
| 04:17 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: I am also for copy-paste game, start, enjoy, or Install and enjoy (withoutn activiation and such) |
| 04:17 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: I have started making my purchased games storing this way. All installed, pached up, CD-ROM/DVD check removed, registry keys stored where necessary |
| 04:18 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Despite I own them in original... GOG.com provides this purchase method |
| 04:18 | <@Terkhen> | I include them already installed, updated and configured in my hard disk image :P |
| 04:19 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: I store my favorites on a Pendrive, including OpenTTD :) |
| 04:19 | <norbert79> | where possible Linux/Windows binaries included |
| 04:20 | <norbert79> | DLC... It's all about making users buying the same thing over and over again |
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| 04:20 | <@Terkhen> | IMO it is breaking what should have been a single game into a lot of small, expensive pieces |
| 04:21 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: And some even though need further addons making it a bit more enjoyable... Nowadays you don't own a game, the game owns you. |
| 04:21 | <dihedral> | good morning |
| 04:21 | <norbert79> | morning dihedral |
| 04:21 | <Eddi|zuHause2> | Ammler: no, it didn't, the error log was stored under the next revision, but the ticket was not updated |
| 04:21 | <@Terkhen> | hi dihedral |
| 04:21 | <dihedral> | you are quick norbert79 |
| 04:21 | <@planetmaker> | hi dihedral |
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| 04:21 | <appe> | heroes 3. |
| 04:21 | <appe> | <3 |
| 04:22 | <dihedral> | too fast... too fast :-( |
| 04:22 | <norbert79> | dihedral: Sure |
| 04:22 | <dihedral> | na, just kidding ;-) |
| 04:22 | <dihedral> | hi |
| 04:22 | <norbert79> | dihedral: That's what she said! :D |
| 04:22 | <dihedral> | she said 'hi'? |
| 04:22 | <dihedral> | :-P |
| 04:22 | <dihedral> | or 'just kidding' :-P |
| 04:22 | <dihedral> | don't answer! |
| 04:22 | <@Terkhen> | that's what she said |
| 04:23 | <norbert79> | lol |
| 04:23 | <dihedral> | :-D |
| 04:24 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: But you see I wouldn't even mind DLC's, if it would be possible modding them easy, or at least I don't have to break through several methods doing so. SWAT 4 provides such nice features, Duke Nukem 3D was also nice on that, Hidden and Dangerous 2 and Mafia 1 didn't yet users were able creating whole bunch of tools for them... |
| 04:25 | <norbert79> | oh and Doom 3 was also easy to mod |
| 04:25 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: take https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3145 ... the ticket has a link to http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/push/ERROR/r240 then there was an unrelated commit which moved the error log to http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/push/ERROR/r241 |
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| 04:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: but why remove them at all? |
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| 04:41 | <Ammler> | why keep it at all? |
| 04:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: what if i want to browse through older tickets? |
| 04:42 | <Ammler> | hmm, the issue should link to ERROR only |
| 04:42 | <Ammler> | the issue is there |
| 04:42 | <Ammler> | just the ERROR bundle is gone |
| 04:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: yes, i get some nonsense and a 404 |
| 04:43 | <Ammler> | (if there is a new ERROR bundle or a succeeded build) |
| 04:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: nothing which hints to what the original error was |
| 04:44 | <Ammler> | yep, I would add part of the error log to the ticket directly |
| 04:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and i still need email on commit |
| 04:46 | <Ammler> | I still wait for the patch :-P |
| 04:47 | <Ammler> | but I once started with at least testing the notify extension |
| 04:47 | <Ammler> | the issue is I need to change the repos which are now in "bare" mode on the server |
| 04:48 | <Eddi|zuHause> | how do commits end up on the activity page? |
| 04:48 | <Ammler> | so we can have a list in .devzone, who to mail |
| 04:49 | <norbert79> | Hehhe @ http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/x11.png |
| 04:49 | <Ammler> | there runs a hook on every push |
| 04:49 | <Ammler> | which does trigger redmine to fetch and compiler to possibilty build |
| 04:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: linking to the png directly is useless |
| 04:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: it cuts off half the joke, the mousover text |
| 04:50 | <norbert79> | Eddi|zuHause: Ok, it's today's one |
| 04:50 | <norbert79> | Eddi|zuHause: so http://www.xkcd.com |
| 04:51 | <norbert79> | Eddi|zuHause: Noted! |
| 04:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: use the permanent link noted below. i.e. http://xkcd.com/963/ |
| 04:51 | <Ammler> | Eddi|zuHause: isn't that the alternative text which explains the image for text browsers? |
| 04:52 | <norbert79> | Eddi|zuHause: Have xkcd.com in my Feed reader... But sure |
| 04:52 | <Ammler> | ah no, title |
| 04:52 | <norbert79> | Ammler: This time no hover-text is necessary... :) |
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| 04:52 | <norbert79> | Ammler: It speaks for itself :)) |
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| 04:53 | <Ammler> | norbert79: well, I use suse, so I never had to edit that file :-) |
| 04:54 | <norbert79> | Ammler: Guess you didn't start with Suse 7.1 ;-) |
| 04:55 | <@peter1138> | xorg doesn't need editing on modern systems |
| 04:55 | <@peter1138> | unless you're using those binary nvidia drivers, heh |
| 04:55 | <norbert79> | peter1138: It did need some back in Gutsy of Ubuntu... |
| 04:55 | <norbert79> | peter1138: But recent Nvidia drivers doesn't nee that anymore neither, if you install it from repos |
| 04:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i use the binary ati drivers... and needed to edit this plenty of times |
| 04:57 | <Ammler> | norbert79: yes, around 7.1, but at that time not very much Desktop |
| 04:57 | <norbert79> | Ammler: Well, it sure was... XFree86 is still annoying, X.Org is way better nowadays. (Xfree86 is still used in many Server based Linux distributions, like Red Hat Enterprise) |
| 04:58 | <Ammler> | as I used deskops there was a gui called sax on suse |
| 04:58 | <norbert79> | That was an addon helper, yes, not part of regular XFree86 though |
| 04:58 | <norbert79> | it was Suse only |
| 05:03 | <b_jonas> | actually both of them are annoying, but X.Org possibly less so |
| 05:05 | <@peter1138> | suse was a pita |
| 05:05 | <@Terkhen> | :P |
| 05:05 | <@peter1138> | <3 debian |
| 05:05 | -!- | Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has joined #openttd |
| 05:06 | <@Terkhen> | do you know of any NewGRF that includes multiple cargos with town effect food or town effect water? |
| 05:09 | <norbert79> | ECS? FIRS? |
| 05:09 | <norbert79> | Not sure though |
| 05:09 | <@Terkhen> | neither am I |
| 05:09 | * | Terkhen hacks one |
| 05:10 | <b_jonas> | you think people can survive on substitutes instead of real water or food? |
| 05:11 | <Korenn> | Terkhen: I noticed that Frosch defined a callback for the cargo display in towns... |
| 05:11 | <@Terkhen> | in my hack they are going to survive by eating raw coal and melted steel |
| 05:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | FIRS has several for food, iirc (milk, fruit, ...) |
| 05:11 | <@Terkhen> | Korenn: which one? |
| 05:11 | <b_jonas> | heh |
| 05:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and several for goods (alcohol, building materials) |
| 05:11 | <@Terkhen> | Cargo requirement information callback <--- do you mean that one? |
| 05:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and it makes goods a water cargo |
| 05:12 | <Korenn> | yeah |
| 05:12 | <@Terkhen> | right now my changes remove the display of delivered cargo completely, as its current implementation does not make sense |
| 05:13 | <@Terkhen> | right now it just uses the name and unit amount of the first cargo found with a given town effect |
| 05:13 | <Korenn> | well, a better default is always good ;) |
| 05:13 | <@Terkhen> | but if for example you have two cargos with TE_FOOD, one of them liquid and other in crates |
| 05:13 | <@Terkhen> | it could say 500 crates of canned food |
| 05:13 | <@Terkhen> | when in reality it is 250 and 250 of each |
| 05:13 | <@Terkhen> | also it counts the TE, which is not the same as cargo units |
| 05:14 | <@Terkhen> | you could define a cargo with a double TE |
| 05:14 | <@Terkhen> | and right now it would be displayed with twice the correct amount |
| 05:14 | <b_jonas> | the townspeople lie that they need more food than they can actually survive on? I think that's completely normal. |
| 05:14 | <@Terkhen> | of course removing them is just a temporal solution while I hack the rest of the code, losing features is never seen as a good thing :) |
| 05:15 | <Korenn> | Terkhen: right, so the newgrf callback probably makes the most sense |
| 05:15 | <b_jonas> | If they told you the actual minimum amount they need, you'd sure give them 20 percent less at the next budget cut. |
| 05:15 | <@Terkhen> | indeed... but I don't know the best way to show the default amounts :) |
| 05:17 | <b_jonas> | By the way, it would be nice if the buy new vehicles list told me the capacity of a car it would have after refitting, eg. “Refittable to: 10 tons of coal, 6 items of livestock” |
| 05:17 | <norbert79> | I think it already does that |
| 05:17 | <norbert79> | at least for planes |
| 05:17 | <norbert79> | by default |
| 05:18 | <@Terkhen> | it does it already, yes |
| 05:20 | <b_jonas> | it doesn't do that for me: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/ottd.png |
| 05:21 | <b_jonas> | It says “Capacity: 20 bags of mail (refittable). Refittable to: Mail, Goods, Livestock.” |
| 05:21 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Go inside the refit |
| 05:21 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: You will see it there |
| 05:22 | <b_jonas> | norbert79: oh sure, once I've bought the car and an engine for it, I can go in the refit window and see it there |
| 05:22 | <b_jonas> | but I'd like to see it when I'm selecting the cars |
| 05:22 | <@Terkhen> | it would be too long in some cases IMO |
| 05:22 | -!- | JVassie_ [~James@2.30.129.177] has joined #openttd |
| 05:23 | <b_jonas> | given that here I have to choose between Covered Carriage Truck and Livestock Van, and there's no way to know which one carries 6 and which one carries 8 items of livestock. |
| 05:23 | <norbert79> | I understand. Well, is it this important? Normally a car is bought for a specific cargo, and refits are only necessary under special circumstances |
| 05:23 | <b_jonas> | norbert79: that depends on the grf |
| 05:23 | <Korenn> | indeed |
| 05:23 | <b_jonas> | this is using UKRS2 where you have to use refit on cars |
| 05:24 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Well, there you got the main core of the problem. It's depending on the GRF |
| 05:24 | <Korenn> | most advanced grfs use generic wagons and refits are the norm |
| 05:24 | <b_jonas> | (for ships it's worse) |
| 05:24 | <@planetmaker> | it simply make no sense to offer 2 dozen bulk wagons |
| 05:24 | <Korenn> | a situation I much prefer, personally. Less clutter in the buy window |
| 05:24 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Hard to satisfy anyone needs, so I guess it's not listed there... besides, if a wagon could be refitted to 10 different products it would make the window look ugly |
| 05:25 | <b_jonas> | well, I'd like separate wagons so that they have separate looks |
| 05:25 | <Korenn> | a number added to the cargo type wouldn't make that much of a difference |
| 05:25 | <Korenn> | large refit lists already look ugly as it is |
| 05:25 | <b_jonas> | but you're right in that the refit list for a ship can be very long |
| 05:25 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: I on the other hand sometimes refit planes being able flying with cargo, but I am ok with current solution. |
| 05:26 | <Korenn> | b_jonas: sets like cc2 have separate looks for their refits, mostly. |
| 05:26 | <Korenn> | 2cc* |
| 05:26 | <b_jonas> | yep, and in UKRS2 if I attach wagons the look of the engine changes |
| 05:26 | <b_jonas> | which is quite the opposite from other sets |
| 05:27 | <b_jonas> | where the look of the cars change if you attach an engine |
| 05:27 | <b_jonas> | funny |
| 05:27 | <@Terkhen> | :P |
| 05:27 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: sadly it might not be just a number |
| 05:28 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: it would have to change from "Livestock, " to "6 items of Livestock, " and from "Oil" to "50,000 tons of Oil, " or something like that |
| 05:28 | <Korenn> | yea, I guess |
| 05:29 | <Korenn> | '6 livestock' would suffice information wise, but people would complain :P |
| 05:29 | <b_jonas> | though Oil is usually not a problem because it's carried by separate liquid vehicles which have short refit lists |
| 05:29 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: 6 livestock might, but how about 5 oil?\ |
| 05:29 | <Korenn> | works for me |
| 05:29 | <Korenn> | I already think in that frame anyway |
| 05:29 | <norbert79> | way too long to display in the buying window |
| 05:29 | <b_jonas> | hmm, it's not actually "50,000 tons of Oil". that would be a bit too much. |
| 05:29 | <Korenn> | but that's cause I'm a programmer :P |
| 05:30 | <norbert79> | let's not forget, that OpenTTD comes in 640x480 as default resolution |
| 05:30 | <@Terkhen> | :P |
| 05:30 | -!- | Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd |
| 05:31 | <norbert79> | so whatever you would like to include, it must fit :) |
| 05:31 | <Korenn> | If there was a setting that allowed turning off the unit of measurement for cargo, I'd have it off all the time |
| 05:31 | <b_jonas> | maybe it should say "6 cows"? "livestock" or "cattle" needs a qualifier in English |
| 05:31 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Still how do you measure weight or liquid without saying Litre or Kg/Tons? |
| 05:32 | <b_jonas> | and "10 shirts" because trousers doesn't seem to have a synonym that goes without "pair" |
| 05:32 | <norbert79> | doesn't make too much sense |
| 05:32 | <b_jonas> | norbert79: yes, but like I said, liquid carrier vehicles usually have short refit lists |
| 05:32 | <b_jonas> | norbert79: so it would be just "5 barrels of oil, 5 barrels of water" |
| 05:32 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: What about grains? Even Liquid carrier could be refit to it... |
| 05:32 | <Korenn> | b_jonas: until someone writes an industry grf with two dozen liquid cargoes :) |
| 05:33 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: that would make the refit list long even if it's just listing the type of cargos |
| 05:33 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Or milk... |
| 05:33 | <b_jonas> | norbert79: liquid carriers can refit to grain? hmm |
| 05:33 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: That's why not a good idea making it even larger |
| 05:33 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Think on trucks, while they have those barrell like of load |
| 05:33 | <b_jonas> | that could be a problem, yes |
| 05:33 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Sometimes grains are being transported with it |
| 05:34 | <@Terkhen> | 5 liquid cargos for trucks in FIRS, another 5 in ECS |
| 05:34 | <b_jonas> | how about using "5 t grains" instead of "5 tons of grain"? |
| 05:35 | <b_jonas> | um, I mean "5 t grain" |
| 05:35 | <norbert79> | looks ugly a bit |
| 05:35 | <norbert79> | but still it only saves a few characters |
| 05:35 | <norbert79> | 6 to be precise |
| 05:35 | <@Terkhen> | you can change units for cargos via NewGRFs already |
| 05:35 | <@Terkhen> | it can even be 5 grain if you want to |
| 05:35 | <@Terkhen> | or 5 |
| 05:35 | <norbert79> | lol |
| 05:36 | <norbert79> | 5 grain... Like the three 3 beans |
| 05:36 | <norbert79> | three beans I mean |
| 05:36 | <norbert79> | wow, 5 pieces of grain making a vehicle full |
| 05:36 | <Elukka> | i don't really get why liquids aren't just measured in tonnes like everything ense |
| 05:36 | <Elukka> | *else |
| 05:36 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Becuase misleading |
| 05:36 | <norbert79> | Elukka: 5 tons of milk is not as much as 5 tons of water |
| 05:36 | <b_jonas> | as another solution, |
| 05:36 | <Elukka> | it very roughly is |
| 05:36 | <norbert79> | milk weighs more |
| 05:37 | <norbert79> | Oil and Petrol is lighter, than water |
| 05:37 | <b_jonas> | what if when you choose "Livestock" from the filter list in the new vehicles window, it shows "Capacity: 6 tons of Livestock" instead of the original capacity, and also buys the carriage refitted? |
| 05:37 | <Elukka> | coal is lighter than iron ore |
| 05:37 | <Elukka> | it's still measured the same in game |
| 05:37 | <b_jonas> | (The original capacity being 20 bags of mail) |
| 05:37 | <norbert79> | Elukka: You are mixing up phsical forms. Ever seen liquid coal? |
| 05:38 | <Elukka> | what? |
| 05:38 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes, that's called oil |
| 05:38 | <Elukka> | liquids have mass just the same as solids |
| 05:38 | <norbert79> | Elukka: You still seems not getting it... |
| 05:38 | <Elukka> | yeah, i'm not sure what you're trying to say |
| 05:38 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Milk is less in litres when measured in wight, than water |
| 05:39 | <norbert79> | noone counts liquids in weight |
| 05:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: what's lighter, one tonne of feathers or one tonne of steel? |
| 05:39 | <Elukka> | sure they do |
| 05:39 | <norbert79> | Like you would buy 1kg of Milk or 1 litre of milk? |
| 05:39 | <norbert79> | Eddi|zuHause: both are still rigid |
| 05:39 | <Elukka> | and solids vary in density just the same as liquids |
| 05:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: lots of places measure weights of liquids |
| 05:39 | <norbert79> | Eddi|zuHause: Ok, go and cook using weights... Don't be suprised looked at stupid. |
| 05:39 | <Elukka> | aircraft (fuel), indeed real life tanker cars... |
| 05:39 | <b_jonas> | in fact, it should say "Capacity: 6 items of livestock (refitted)" instead of "Capacity: 20 bags of mail (refittable)" when you are using livestock as the filter |
| 05:39 | <Elukka> | both use weight for liquids |
| 05:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: if you have a tank truck for oil you measure its weight empty, and then its weight full |
| 05:40 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Main measurmenet is gallons |
| 05:40 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Weight has only a n importance when calulcating thew cargo included |
| 05:40 | <Elukka> | the critical measurement on a railcar is mass |
| 05:40 | <norbert79> | Elukka: because it affects how a plane flies |
| 05:40 | <Elukka> | if a tanker is built to take 50 tonnes you can't load it for more than 50 tonnes |
| 05:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: because it's way easier to measure mass than volume |
| 05:40 | <Korenn> | b_jonas: it would be even better if the refittable cargo in the list is clickable, and it would then show the information for that refit |
| 05:40 | <norbert79> | Elukka: But it's important how much gallons a plane has |
| 05:41 | <Elukka> | you can load it for less if you're loading it with something less dense |
| 05:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: no, it's not |
| 05:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: the volume is completely unimportant for the plane |
| 05:41 | <Elukka> | yeah |
| 05:41 | <norbert79> | Eddi|zuHause: This is what you think. Ok, go and fill your car with fuel based on kg's... |
| 05:41 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: perhaps, but that might be more difficult to implement, and you'd probably know what cargo you want to transport if you want to choose a car anyway |
| 05:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: the mass is important for getting you anywhere. the volume changes with temperature |
| 05:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: that's actually what they do, they just show the litres for convenience |
| 05:42 | <Korenn> | b_jonas: yeah, but the drop down selection is unwieldy if you need to switch a lot |
| 05:42 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: I mean, if you already know the cars well then you don't read the info so it doesn't matter it doesn't tell the refitted capacity, |
| 05:42 | <b_jonas> | but if you don't know them, then you want to filter. |
| 05:42 | <Elukka> | norbert, you're only listing special cases where liquids aren't measured in mass |
| 05:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: if the tank station says you put in 50 litres, you've actually put in like 55 litres |
| 05:42 | <Korenn> | I do think it could use some thought - it's currently way too much of a hassle if you want to add a bunch of wagons where half are refitted to a different cargo |
| 05:42 | <Elukka> | for both aircraft and rail vehicles mass is more important than volume |
| 05:42 | <norbert79> | Eddi|zuHause: Still wrong. If I would fill my car in litres in summer, it would be the same ammount of litre of fuel in winter too... |
| 05:42 | <norbert79> | Eddi|zuHause: Way wrong |
| 05:42 | <b_jonas> | By the way, shouldn't the filters also include things like engine, break van, engine that goes on non-electric rails? |
| 05:43 | <norbert79> | Eddi|zuHause: That's defined in standards. |
| 05:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: the tank stations list litres calculated for 15°C |
| 05:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | norbert79: but that has nothing to do with the litres you actually put in |
| 05:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | at current temperatures |
| 05:43 | <@planetmaker> | can I buy tanks at the tank station? |
| 05:43 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: it's usually not an issue because you cars aren't refittable to too many things |
| 05:43 | <norbert79> | Eddi|zuHause: Well, I know different... I guess your local stations must been cheating then :) |
| 05:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and i have to go... |
| 05:43 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: so you can just add the covered wagons and the open wagons, then refit all to livestock then refit all to grain |
| 05:43 | <@planetmaker> | or just comparitively harmless fuel? ;-) |
| 05:44 | <Korenn> | planetmaker: it only accepts tanks |
| 05:44 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: and get the covered cars carrying livestock and the open ones carrying grain. |
| 05:44 | <Elukka> | norbert79: why do think liquids can't or aren't ever measured in kg or tonnes? |
| 05:44 | <Korenn> | b_jonas: that only works in that specific case |
| 05:44 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: it also works with mail and passengers. |
| 05:44 | <@planetmaker> | Elukka: they are... |
| 05:44 | <norbert79> | Elukka: I am not sayixng they are not, but it also depends for what calculations they are using it. For example fighter planes never fill based on Kg's/tons but gallons/litres |
| 05:44 | <Korenn> | b_jonas: but if you're playing FIRS and want to ship both stone and sand, it's a hassle |
| 05:45 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: hmm |
| 05:45 | <b_jonas> | I see |
| 05:45 | <b_jonas> | I haven't played with FIRS |
| 05:45 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Even passenger planes are calculating with gallons |
| 05:45 | <Korenn> | same with ECS |
| 05:45 | <norbert79> | Elukka: But this still does not solve the current problem. Kg is one character longer, than Litre (l) :) |
| 05:45 | <Korenn> | they all go in hoppers, so you have to split up the wagons, refit, then swap to the other group, refit again, and add them together |
| 05:45 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79: or (metric) tons |
| 05:46 | <Elukka> | i've seen aircraft fuel referred to in tons |
| 05:46 | <@planetmaker> | or litres |
| 05:46 | <Elukka> | rocket fuel is almost always measured in tonnes too |
| 05:46 | <Korenn> | norbert79: ,000 l is longer than t. ; |
| 05:46 | <Korenn> | ;) |
| 05:46 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Because it affects if a rocket can leave orbit or not... And since there is no control how fast the fuel burns no need to think in other, than kilograms |
| 05:46 | <Elukka> | railway tanker car payloads are measured in both tonnes and volume, but the critical measurement is the mass |
| 05:47 | <norbert79> | Elukka: So basically we are saying the same. It depends on the calculation the measurement is used for |
| 05:47 | <Elukka> | liquids rockets are throttleable, there is control on how fast the fuel burns |
| 05:47 | <Korenn> | liquid rail cargo is always expressed in weight, so that they can calculate required pull |
| 05:47 | <norbert79> | Elukka: but the temperature stays the same |
| 05:48 | <Elukka> | what's that got to do with anything |
| 05:48 | <Elukka> | korenn, good point |
| 05:48 | <norbert79> | Lunch time, later |
| 05:48 | <Elukka> | i think it would also be less confusing for new players if oil fields produced 100 tonnes of oil rather than 100 000 l |
| 05:48 | <b_jonas> | Is it possible for a car to be refitted to two different variants both carrying Goods with the same attributes but different graphics? |
| 05:48 | <b_jonas> | I think some GRFs use different car models instead. |
| 05:48 | <Korenn> | if the refits are defined, yep |
| 05:49 | <b_jonas> | so in that case even the filter wouldn't help |
| 05:49 | <Korenn> | they could even have differing capacity |
| 05:49 | <b_jonas> | you'd have to split the train anyway if you wanted to transfer both cars and crates |
| 05:49 | <b_jonas> | yes, I've seen different capacity |
| 05:49 | <@Terkhen> | hmm... I wonder if it would be possible to do a string code like {STRING5} that consumes an arbitrary number of strings |
| 05:49 | <b_jonas> | FISH has one such ship |
| 05:49 | <Korenn> | Terkhen: heh, also ran into missing STRING6? :P |
| 05:50 | <@Terkhen> | no, I need a custom one |
| 05:50 | <Korenn> | b_jonas: but I like your suggestion of being able to pre-select a refit from the buy window a lot |
| 05:50 | <Korenn> | it would make life a lot easier |
| 05:50 | <norbert79> | Elukka: One thing: Volume and mass can be only used, where temperatures are not flexible. For liquids, in case for flexible temepratures, litre and gallons are used. That's the standard |
| 05:50 | <@Terkhen> | string_1, string_2, string_3, ..., string_n-1 or string_n <--- that's the output I want |
| 05:50 | <norbert79> | Now I am off eating |
| 05:51 | <Elukka> | not really |
| 05:51 | <Korenn> | norbert79: you've got that totally backwards |
| 05:51 | <Elukka> | liter and gallon are measurements of volume |
| 05:51 | <Korenn> | in case of differing temperatures they use weight, as that's constant |
| 05:51 | * | Terkhen tries to understand the string source code |
| 05:51 | <Elukka> | volume varies by temperature |
| 05:51 | <Elukka> | mass is a constant |
| 05:51 | <@Yexo> | Terkhen: if you need either STRING3 or STRING2 just use STRING3 |
| 05:52 | <@Yexo> | just don't set the extra parameters via SetDParam and it'll just work |
| 05:52 | <b_jonas> | I, having no talent for cooking, sometimes measure milk by weight with a kitchen scale so that I execute the recipe to the word. |
| 05:52 | <Korenn> | Yexo: and when you need STRINGN ? |
| 05:52 | <b_jonas> | However, in that case the recipe gives a volume. |
| 05:52 | <@Terkhen> | Yexo: I need an enumeration of cargos |
| 05:52 | <@Yexo> | STRINGn is not possible |
| 05:52 | <@Terkhen> | I was hacking it |
| 05:52 | <Korenn> | I've always wondered why |
| 05:52 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Still, tankers are limited by size, not by the fact how much weight they can swallow. You can't fill a wagon with 5 tons of oil for example at 45 °C, but for example at 10°C, since it's thicker... |
| 05:53 | <@Terkhen> | but when I wanted to add "or" I noticed that "or" should be translated too |
| 05:53 | <Elukka> | they are limited by how much weight they can take, just like every other rail car |
| 05:53 | <@Terkhen> | if STRINGN is not possible I'll just add a string containing only "or" |
| 05:53 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Ok, was a bad example, but you get the idea |
| 05:53 | <Korenn> | variable length string arguments are a pretty common feature |
| 05:53 | <Elukka> | cars are rated for a certain payload, track is rated for a certain axle weight |
| 05:53 | <b_jonas> | Elukka: are the passenger and mail cars also limited to weight? |
| 05:54 | <b_jonas> | I thoguht at least the passenger cars are limited more to volume. |
| 05:54 | <Elukka> | well passenger cars are limited by how many seats there are |
| 05:54 | <norbert79> | Elukka: But your car's tank is not limited to weight, but litres |
| 05:54 | <@Yexo> | Korenn: it's not possible because strgen (which is run at compile-time) needs to know the number of arguments |
| 05:54 | <Elukka> | so effectively volume :P |
| 05:54 | <b_jonas> | what? no way! |
| 05:54 | <b_jonas> | seats? |
| 05:54 | <@Terkhen> | in theory, since you can only have 32 cargos, STRING32 would be enough for me... but I still need to add "or" between the two last strings |
| 05:54 | <Korenn> | norbert79: in that case, they will always fill it with X tons of oil, so that the total volume will always safely fit |
| 05:54 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Don't think in Hungarian circumstances :D |
| 05:54 | <@Terkhen> | so I'll just hack it :P |
| 05:54 | <Elukka> | norbert79: a hopper car built for iron ore is limited by liters when loaded with coal |
| 05:54 | <Elukka> | does this mean coal should be measured in liters? |
| 05:54 | <@Yexo> | "{RAWSTRING} or {STRING}" ? |
| 05:54 | <b_jonas> | :-) |
| 05:54 | <Korenn> | there's a RAWSTRING? |
| 05:55 | <@Terkhen> | yes, I'm using RAW_STRING and strecat |
| 05:55 | <@Yexo> | yes |
| 05:55 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Hopper car is a bad example since it's about how much the track can hold... |
| 05:55 | <@Terkhen> | that's how it's done in other parts of the code |
| 05:55 | <Elukka> | no, it's the exact same thing as your example |
| 05:55 | <Elukka> | all cars in real life have both mass and volume limits |
| 05:55 | <Elukka> | it doesn't matter whether it transports liquids or solids |
| 05:56 | <Korenn> | <norbert79> Elukka: But your car's tank is not limited to weight, but litres <- this is blatantly untrue. It does have a maximum volume, but they're never filled to the brim BECAUSE temperature changes |
| 05:56 | -!- | DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928224508]] |
| 05:56 | <norbert79> | Elukka: But think for example n a bottle. You won't fill it with 1dkg of water ta 1 litre big bottle at 90°C, but only with 9cl, since it varies in size, but you can do that at 4°C |
| 05:56 | <b_jonas> | norbert79: well, even in Austria, some ski lifts have only standing passengers, no seats, though even there my idea of their capacity is much higher than some other people's. |
| 05:56 | <Elukka> | yeah, volume varies |
| 05:56 | <Korenn> | norbert79: now you're arguing the case for eight |
| 05:56 | <Elukka> | mass doesn't |
| 05:56 | <norbert79> | Korenn: Ok, that might be true |
| 05:56 | <Korenn> | weight |
| 05:57 | <norbert79> | Korenn: |
| 05:57 | <norbert79> | Korenn: No |
| 05:57 | <b_jonas> | so basically all cars have both volume and mass limits, but depending on the cargo one is usually much more restrictive than the other |
| 05:57 | <Elukka> | yes |
| 05:57 | <norbert79> | Korenn: I am merely pointing out, that if you buy 30 litres of Fuel for your tank, it varies on it's size, but it's always 30 litres, otherwise you get some nice decent fine |
| 05:57 | <norbert79> | size=mass |
| 05:57 | <Elukka> | no, you've got it the wrong way round |
| 05:57 | <norbert79> | I have seen a civil case on this |
| 05:57 | <Elukka> | mass does not vary |
| 05:58 | <Elukka> | volume (liters) does |
| 05:58 | <norbert79> | It does |
| 05:58 | <Elukka> | it really doesn't :D |
| 05:58 | <norbert79> | 30 litre of fuel must be 30 litre even in winter or in summer |
| 05:58 | <norbert79> | even if it weighs more |
| 05:58 | <Elukka> | volume varies depending on temperature |
| 05:58 | <Elukka> | mass is always constant |
| 05:58 | <norbert79> | Sure |
| 05:59 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79: 30l of fuel are 'standard litres'. Which is normed to a certain temperature |
| 05:59 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: No |
| 05:59 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Not everywhere |
| 05:59 | <b_jonas> | So fuel is cheaper in the winter? |
| 05:59 | <Elukka> | this is honestly elementary school physics... |
| 05:59 | <norbert79> | No, because you still have 30 litres |
| 05:59 | <norbert79> | it's mass varies a bit in winter, but at a very certain small level |
| 06:00 | <Elukka> | mass of a substance does not vary depending on temperature |
| 06:00 | <b_jonas> | how much does the volume of fuel even vary in the temperature range that typically occurs in a gas station? |
| 06:00 | <norbert79> | 30 litres of fuel in winter weighs a bit more, than in summer... |
| 06:00 | <b_jonas> | I mean, it's not like they're selling you boiling gas |
| 06:00 | <Elukka> | gas stations are probably a bad example if it's 'standard litres' and not real litres |
| 06:00 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: As far as I know that's controlled, but I don't know how well does that work under extreme low temperatures |
| 06:00 | <Elukka> | norbert no it doesn't |
| 06:01 | <Elukka> | that doesn't make any sense |
| 06:01 | <b_jonas> | A water tanker likely won't carry boiling water either. |
| 06:01 | <Elukka> | the volume, measured in liters, varies with temperature |
| 06:01 | <Elukka> | the mass, measured in kg, does not |
| 06:02 | <norbert79> | 1dkg of water is not always 1 liter of water, it depends on the temperature, but 30l of fuel must be always 30 l of fuel |
| 06:02 | <Elukka> | i'm not sure how i can explain it any other way... |
| 06:02 | <Elukka> | 30 liters of fuel at -20c is not the same as 30 liters of fuel at +20c |
| 06:02 | <norbert79> | I get it, but I am merely pointiojng out, that some measurements are not being valuclated in mass, because of the standards |
| 06:02 | <norbert79> | now you are micing it up |
| 06:03 | <norbert79> | 30 litres is always 30 litres |
| 06:03 | <Elukka> | liters are a measurement of volume |
| 06:03 | <Elukka> | volume varies with temperature |
| 06:03 | <@planetmaker> | no :-) |
| 06:03 | <@planetmaker> | density |
| 06:03 | <norbert79> | thank you |
| 06:03 | <norbert79> | that was the word I was looking for |
| 06:03 | <Elukka> | the volume taken up by a certain amount of substance varies with temperature, more accurately |
| 06:03 | <Elukka> | so yes, density |
| 06:04 | <Elukka> | but the mass is always a constant |
| 06:04 | <@planetmaker> | as is volume ;-) |
| 06:04 | <norbert79> | but 30 litre of water weighs less, than 30 litre of oil, if I don't consider temperature, and density changes with temperature |
| 06:04 | <Elukka> | planetmaker, semantics |
| 06:04 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79: sure? That really depends on the oil |
| 06:04 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Ok, might been not the best example |
| 06:04 | <Elukka> | 1 kg of water at 0 c takes up a different amount of volume than 1 kg of water at 20c |
| 06:04 | <b_jonas> | or so you think. the mass of passengers might vary by season. |
| 06:04 | <@planetmaker> | my oil in the soup floats |
| 06:05 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: I could have said heavy water too ;-) |
| 06:05 | <Elukka> | ergo the volume of a given mass of water varies with temperature |
| 06:05 | <@planetmaker> | yes. And Earth's rotation speed varies by season |
| 06:05 | <@Terkhen> | urgh, messy code |
| 06:05 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79: that doesn't matter |
| 06:05 | <Elukka> | but 1 kg of water is always 1 kg of water |
| 06:05 | <@Terkhen> | BTW, OpenTTD has no temperature, no pressure / gravity changes due to height and so on |
| 06:06 | <@planetmaker> | no?! :-( |
| 06:06 | <@peter1138> | REALISTIC GRAVITY |
| 06:06 | <@planetmaker> | though... temperature it has |
| 06:06 | <@planetmaker> | snowline :-) |
| 06:06 | <TinoDidriksen> | 1 newton of water is always 1 newton...kg also differs depending on gravity. |
| 06:06 | <b_jonas> | does it at least have weight changes depending on latitude? |
| 06:06 | <@Terkhen> | planetmaker: it's just a patch of white moss that moves around |
| 06:06 | <@planetmaker> | TinoDidriksen: kg is a _mass_ unit. Not a force unit |
| 06:07 | <@planetmaker> | thus it doesn't depend on gravity |
| 06:07 | <@Terkhen> | b_jonas: it does not have latitude either, the world is flat |
| 06:07 | <Elukka> | TinoDidriksen: kg is a unit of mass, not weight |
| 06:07 | <Elukka> | 1 kg on earth is also 1 kg on the moon |
| 06:07 | <Elukka> | weight is what varies |
| 06:08 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Yet 1 kg might not have the same force :) |
| 06:08 | <Elukka> | yes but it is still a mass of 1 kg |
| 06:08 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Since the Moon has less gravity |
| 06:08 | <b_jonas> | hmm, maybe we should have first class passenger wagons: they have less capacity but passengers pay more for transport in them |
| 06:08 | <Elukka> | that's irrelevant |
| 06:09 | <Elukka> | weight is measured in newtons |
| 06:09 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Not really... Especially when you design tracks on the Moon ;-)) |
| 06:09 | <@Terkhen> | b_jonas: create a new cargo called Tourists or First Class Passengers |
| 06:09 | <Elukka> | this is the force exerted by a graviational field |
| 06:09 | <b_jonas> | yep, it might be better as a new cargo |
| 06:09 | <b_jonas> | we'd have Tourists and Managers |
| 06:10 | <Elukka> | if your rover masses 500 kg on earth, it'll also mass 500 kg on the moon... |
| 06:10 | <Elukka> | it'll also mass 500 kg in freefall ('zero gravity'), for that matter |
| 06:10 | <b_jonas> | isn't the moon a completely different climate so you can't even compare cargo with it? |
| 06:10 | <TinoDidriksen> | Ok, talking about mass kg...yes, 1 kg mass is 1kg mass. 1 kg of weight is not; I see they call that kgf. |
| 06:11 | <norbert79> | Sure, but it has no more value... Mass in itself is nothing, when there is no gravitational force |
| 06:11 | <Elukka> | mass is everything |
| 06:11 | <Elukka> | even if there is no gravitational force there is mass |
| 06:11 | <norbert79> | sure, so? |
| 06:11 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79: that's wrong by so many accounts... |
| 06:12 | <b_jonas> | norbert79: tell me that again when I throw a heavy iron ball towards your head |
| 06:12 | <@planetmaker> | ... I can't even start on summing it up |
| 06:12 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Well, I could push happily 500kgs on the moon while on earth it would be unmovable |
| 06:12 | <Elukka> | if you want to move in space, you have to expend a certain amount of mass in the opposite direction |
| 06:12 | <Elukka> | if your spaceship masses more you need to expend more mass (fuel) |
| 06:12 | <Elukka> | this is how any kind of rocket works |
| 06:12 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: a bullet is also a few grams big, still deadly :) |
| 06:12 | <@Terkhen> | reread the first newton law |
| 06:13 | <norbert79> | A 500kg of rock would do no harm if placed onto something on the Moon, where on the Earth it might make it collapse. |
| 06:13 | <Korenn> | <norbert79> planetmaker: Well, I could push happily 500kgs on the moon while on earth it would be unmovable <- again, untrue. You're glossing over the parameters that actually count - friction on the mass and yourself. |
| 06:14 | <norbert79> | because Moon has a smaller gravitational force |
| 06:14 | <Korenn> | given low friction, you can push 500 kg on earth |
| 06:14 | <Elukka> | that is true |
| 06:14 | <Korenn> | given high friction, you can't on the moon |
| 06:14 | <Elukka> | the mass is still 500 kg though |
| 06:14 | <norbert79> | but mass is useless without force... |
| 06:14 | <@planetmaker> | quite so |
| 06:14 | <Elukka> | no it isn't |
| 06:14 | <norbert79> | why? |
| 06:14 | <Elukka> | mass is the most criticial measurement for anything operating in weightlessness |
| 06:14 | <@planetmaker> | mass is absolutely NOT useless w/o friction |
| 06:14 | <Elukka> | spacecraft, namely |
| 06:15 | <@planetmaker> | it's one of the 7 fundamental units in universe... |
| 06:15 | <Korenn> | or nuclear fusion ;) |
| 06:15 | <Elukka> | celestial bodies are also measured in mass |
| 06:15 | <norbert79> | if nothing is having any force on an object in free space, would it matter if it weighs 5 grams or 500kg? |
| 06:15 | <Elukka> | yes |
| 06:15 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 06:15 | <TinoDidriksen> | It would exert a gravitational force, which would matter. |
| 06:16 | <@planetmaker> | they keyword is momentum conservation |
| 06:16 | <@planetmaker> | don't think in forces. They're boring |
| 06:16 | <Korenn> | mass = energy |
| 06:16 | <Elukka> | the earth masses roughly 6 x 10^24 kilograms |
| 06:16 | <Elukka> | it's in freefall |
| 06:16 | <Elukka> | its mass is still certainly relevant, though |
| 06:16 | <@planetmaker> | hm... I shouldn't say, they're boring. My thesis is mostly about one... damn |
| 06:17 | <Elukka> | norbert79: you would have a much easier time pushing the 5 gram object compared to the 500 kg one |
| 06:18 | <@Terkhen> | so your thesis is boring? :P |
| 06:18 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Sure, but I was merely comparing measuring weight on Earth and on the Moon, and it's value, since on moon you could fill an object with much more mass, than on earth, since the gravtianal force is much lower. |
| 06:18 | <Korenn> | theses are always boring - otherwise you get reviewer complaints that it's 'too popular' :P |
| 06:18 | <Elukka> | yes, weight does vary |
| 06:19 | <norbert79> | Elukka: That's why I said mass (I always get confused with these terms/expressions) is nothing in itself, when there is no force in place... |
| 06:19 | <Elukka> | i don't see how that makes sense |
| 06:19 | <norbert79> | if we void gravitation |
| 06:19 | <Korenn> | lol |
| 06:20 | <Korenn> | if we void energy, everything is meaningless |
| 06:20 | <norbert79> | it still makes fun :) |
| 06:20 | <Noldo> | does this conversation have a point? |
| 06:21 | <norbert79> | Noldo: No, that has been lost by now |
| 06:21 | <Korenn> | if you have to discount fundamental properties of physics to make your point, you don't have one ;P |
| 06:21 | <norbert79> | Noldo: but you missed a lot |
| 06:21 | <Noldo> | have you heard of this thing called backlog |
| 06:21 | <norbert79> | Korenn: Mathematicians do this often ;-) |
| 06:22 | <Korenn> | but they don't attempt to argue physical points |
| 06:22 | <Noldo> | don't go all meta on me now |
| 06:22 | <norbert79> | Korenn: Sure, but I love how I was teached how a mathematicans prove something, and the use of contants... |
| 06:23 | <Korenn> | Noldo: norbert79 made a nonsensical case for why cargo volume is constant, and the rest of the channel disagreed. |
| 06:23 | <norbert79> | Korenn: Mass |
| 06:23 | <b_jonas> | norbert79: do you know why train accidents are so deadly, and why in level crossings, trains always have the right of way over road vehicles? |
| 06:23 | <norbert79> | Korenn: and I was merely trying to point out, that many times volume is considered instead of mass |
| 06:23 | <norbert79> | Korenn: since density, but let's not start over |
| 06:23 | <Korenn> | [11:58:32] <norbert79> 30 litre of fuel must be 30 litre even in winter or in summer |
| 06:23 | <Korenn> | [11:58:44] <norbert79> even if it weighs more |
| 06:23 | <Korenn> | seems you've been going in circles then |
| 06:23 | <Elukka> | you were really making a case for using mass rather than volume, you just didn't notice ;) |
| 06:24 | <Korenn> | indeed |
| 06:24 | <norbert79> | Korenn: Yes. 30 litres is 30 litres. It's mass is different |
| 06:24 | <b_jonas> | It turns out, reality is more complicated than we want, so weight, mass and volume all count with trains. |
| 06:24 | <Elukka> | lol |
| 06:25 | <Elukka> | still getting it the wrong way around :P |
| 06:25 | <Noldo> | well... |
| 06:25 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Let's make it simpler: Let's use what commercial companies also use. If it's mass for wagons for trains, so shall it be then |
| 06:26 | <Korenn> | it is |
| 06:26 | <Korenn> | they all do |
| 06:26 | <norbert79> | then that's what the game shall also follow |
| 06:26 | <b_jonas> | I still say that depends on the cargo |
| 06:26 | <b_jonas> | passengers are counted using volume instead of mass |
| 06:27 | <norbert79> | hmm, true |
| 06:27 | <Noldo> | so is this the old guestion about which is heavier, kilogram of iron or kilo of feathers? |
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| 06:27 | <norbert79> | Noldo: No... We are merely trying to figure out which woulld be the best to used... Besides, on which planet? :) |
| 06:27 | <b_jonas> | on trains and buses and cars at least -- in elevators it's their mass that matters |
| 06:28 | -!- | KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has joined #openttd |
| 06:28 | <b_jonas> | smugglers swallowing drug capsules are also limited by volume |
| 06:29 | <@Terkhen> | http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- what do you think? |
| 06:29 | <@Terkhen> | of the display, of course the cargos displayed are just a hack |
| 06:29 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Well, one solution could be that you go through each type of wagon/plane, etc, and you use what other also use. For buses, the ammount of people. Oil-wagon? Tons... Etc |
| 06:29 | <Elukka> | looks good to me |
| 06:29 | <b_jonas> | the luggages of passengers on buses is limited by volume, but on planes the check-in luggage is limited by mass and the hand luggage by volume |
| 06:30 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Let's just void luggage |
| 06:30 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Easy to translate too... Looks nice |
| 06:30 | <@Terkhen> | it only needs translation of the "or" string |
| 06:30 | <b_jonas> | in ottd terms, luggage is part of the passengers I think |
| 06:31 | <@Terkhen> | the problem of this display is... how to display delivered cargos? |
| 06:31 | <norbert79> | remove it |
| 06:31 | <b_jonas> | and if there are passengers carrying less luggage (managers) and passengers carrying more luggage (skiers) then they should be different cargo type. |
| 06:31 | <Noldo> | does the unit cargo is measured in really matter? |
| 06:31 | <Elukka> | i think the only thing that doesn't make sense, but more importantly is a bit confusing, is the measurement of liquids in liters |
| 06:31 | <norbert79> | if it has been delivered, no need to listing it as required |
| 06:31 | <Elukka> | in ottd i mean |
| 06:32 | <b_jonas> | Hey, let's transport everything and everyone in big fixed-size crates to simplify calculations! |
| 06:32 | <norbert79> | Noldo: Well, it would be nice using right measurements in the game following standards |
| 06:32 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Ok, may I start with you? Need a lift to somewhere? :)) |
| 06:32 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: and how would you solve density? :) |
| 06:33 | <b_jonas> | norbert79: come on, it can't be that much worse than the trams in the morning. |
| 06:33 | <Noldo> | yeah, but being standard does not imply making sence |
| 06:33 | <Elukka> | we measure the power of cars in the average daily power output of a working horse! |
| 06:34 | <norbert79> | Elukka: How you made that pointed out makes that look very silly |
| 06:34 | <Elukka> | often locomotives too |
| 06:34 | <Noldo> | KW is the standard there actually |
| 06:34 | <norbert79> | Noldo: Not everywhere |
| 06:34 | <b_jonas> | Elukka: nah, hit points have nothing to do with horses, except in etimology |
| 06:34 | <Noldo> | maybe not in non-standard countries |
| 06:34 | <Elukka> | hit points? :P |
| 06:34 | <Korenn> | Terkhen: aweseome! |
| 06:34 | <Elukka> | horse powers certainly have to do with horses |
| 06:35 | <norbert79> | Why? The tracks have been also defined by the size of the..backs of roman horses |
| 06:35 | <norbert79> | railway tracks |
| 06:35 | <b_jonas> | it says "hp", I think it means "hit points" or "health points", the amount of damage the vehicle can suffer before it gets destroyed |
| 06:35 | <b_jonas> | it's not "horse power" |
| 06:35 | <Elukka> | clever |
| 06:35 | <Korenn> | <b_jonas> smugglers swallowing drug capsules are also limited by volume ... Time for a drugs transportation mod? :P |
| 06:36 | <norbert79> | So if we consider the fact of horses, without horses not even trains could exist :) |
| 06:36 | <Elukka> | it'll significantly increase your aircraft profit, at the risk of getting caught and suffering a penalty with the local authority ;p |
| 06:37 | <b_jonas> | Elukka: I don't think air traffic companies ever get from the profit. |
| 06:37 | <Elukka> | in ottd it'd be the company doing it! |
| 06:37 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Well, what about airport security? |
| 06:38 | <Korenn> | Elukka: you could write an entire mod about smuggling drugs from plantations to big cities :P |
| 06:38 | <Elukka> | lol |
| 06:39 | <norbert79> | And add grease-money to the expenses |
| 06:39 | <Korenn> | and hiring enforcers |
| 06:39 | <norbert79> | since you need to pay for paying up airport security, customes |
| 06:39 | <norbert79> | customs |
| 06:40 | <norbert79> | and dealers |
| 06:40 | <norbert79> | since no station could be built for such |
| 06:40 | <b_jonas> | I think that's already counted in the maintainence cost of the airplanes and airports. |
| 06:41 | <norbert79> | b_jonas: Yet it would depend on the avaialbility of the different facilities being accessible, like schools, stadiums, bars... |
| 06:41 | <norbert79> | in each town/city |
| 06:41 | <norbert79> | the more places the more expenses |
| 06:43 | <Korenn> | norbert79: instead of stations in town you'd build safe-houses. and fund processing labs |
| 06:43 | <norbert79> | lol |
| 06:43 | <norbert79> | ok, this is getting a bit being too much :) |
| 06:44 | <norbert79> | starts reminding me on SWAT 4 TSS :) |
| 06:44 | <Korenn> | given how well GTA does, if you'd make a good mod you could even sell it for money ;) |
| 06:44 | <norbert79> | haven't played GTA since GTA 2.. |
| 06:45 | <norbert79> | lost track of it |
| 06:45 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: a mod? doesn't GTA already have drug trafficking? |
| 06:46 | <b_jonas> | I thought drugs were the main point of the story |
| 06:47 | <Korenn> | b_jonas: sure, but in ottd it would be more of a SIMS game ; |
| 06:47 | <Korenn> | ;) |
| 06:47 | <Korenn> | SIM* |
| 06:48 | <b_jonas> | you know, I think ottd doesn't go well with that kind of story |
| 06:48 | <b_jonas> | just think of Settlers of Catan: none of the official expansions have military nor much destroying the opponent's property |
| 06:49 | <b_jonas> | there are unofficial mods, but not much played |
| 06:49 | <b_jonas> | similarly, ottd is a peaceful game. adding violence or drugs just doesn't work with it. |
| 06:49 | <@Terkhen> | yup |
| 06:50 | <norbert79> | Well, I liked Amnesia - The dark descent, and the fact, that the player cannot fight back.. a mod doing just like that would just make it less interesting. |
| 06:50 | <appe> | uuh |
| 06:50 | <Korenn> | b_jonas: it would work just fine. it would become a different setting and themed game, but it would work fine. |
| 06:50 | <appe> | that game f*cked up my mind. |
| 06:51 | <Korenn> | Tropico is more in that direction and is also a peaceful game, even though it has military presence |
| 06:51 | <appe> | openttd is a serious game. please don't fuck it up with unrealistic shit. |
| 06:51 | <appe> | thank you. |
| 06:51 | <appe> | tropico!! |
| 06:51 | <norbert79> | appe: Well, I loved it, I also like Undying too, where both were as scary as the other |
| 06:51 | <appe> | <3<3<3 |
| 06:51 | <Korenn> | appe: that's ridiculously narrowminded |
| 06:51 | <appe> | amnesia wasnt scary, it litteraly made my body switch poop side. |
| 06:51 | <b_jonas> | Korenn: maybe if you keep just the engine core and transform it completely like roller coaster tycoon |
| 06:52 | <Korenn> | it wouldn't need much changing to work - but yes, it wouldn't be ottd anymore :) |
| 06:52 | <norbert79> | appe: :] ... Oh well, I was also scared when I first was attacked by a grunt... But then I managed it |
| 06:52 | <appe> | Korenn: hows that. im narrowminded because i like the game as it is? :> |
| 06:54 | <appe> | i hope you didnt missunderstand me, im simply tired of games trying to build itself on 'cool' elements |
| 06:54 | <Korenn> | it's narrowminded to shoot down ideas that go in other directions because it's not what you know |
| 06:54 | <b_jonas> | appe: I see |
| 06:54 | <norbert79> | appe: Wolfenstein 3D had a killcam. That was cool :) |
| 06:54 | <appe> | like drugs, drive-by's, zombies, tits or the war in iraq. |
| 06:54 | <Korenn> | ALL games dev does that ;) |
| 06:54 | <V453000> | [12:51] <appe> openttd is a serious game. please don't fuck it up with unrealistic shit. <- the unrealistic shit is the only thing which fucks openttd up so far ;) |
| 06:55 | <V453000> | *I mean realistic |
| 06:55 | <V453000> | you get the point .. |
| 06:55 | <b_jonas> | that's true to many games |
| 06:55 | <norbert79> | appe: Still, Max Payne somewhow still made it look awesome... |
| 06:55 | <b_jonas> | trying to add realistic to it often makes it worse |
| 06:55 | <__ln__> | did you just say the f word? |
| 06:56 | <appe> | Korenn: ah, i didnt really shoot down on any idea, i tried to emphasize how i love the game as it is. |
| 06:56 | <b_jonas> | if it's too much realistic at least |
| 06:56 | <appe> | norbert79: horrible. |
| 06:56 | <appe> | V453000: true. |
| 06:56 | <norbert79> | appe: Why? The best game I have ever played, I loved each moment of the story... |
| 06:56 | <norbert79> | appe: it bases itself on returning elements, still... |
| 06:57 | <norbert79> | appe: Ok, it has no zombies, unless Jack Lupino could be called that |
| 07:03 | <@Terkhen> | http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- there must be some better way to show this |
| 07:04 | <norbert79> | hmm, small fonts would make it unreadable |
| 07:04 | <norbert79> | what about symbols? |
| 07:04 | <appe> | norbert79: that's of course a personal reference of mine. i cant get my head around shoot-stuff-in-awesome-graphics-games. |
| 07:05 | <@Yexo> | Terkhen: imo that grf makes little sense. "steel or water"? |
| 07:05 | <@Yexo> | "iron ore or livestock"? |
| 07:05 | <@Yexo> | I don't see coherence at all |
| 07:05 | <appe> | what grf is that? |
| 07:05 | <@Terkhen> | the grf makes no sense at all, it is a hacked example so I have multiple cargos with the same town effect |
| 07:05 | <norbert79> | Yexo: Either the town goes heavy industry or farming... |
| 07:05 | <appe> | never seen iron ore be supplied to a town before. |
| 07:05 | <@Yexo> | norbert79: so a town in desert will grow when you provide coal and steel? |
| 07:05 | <@Yexo> | or oil and livestock? |
| 07:06 | <@Terkhen> | just imagine that they are cargos that make sense... I'm just trying to find a better way to display cargos required for growth when you have many with the same town effect |
| 07:06 | <norbert79> | Yexo: Well, currently it doesn't differ too much from current solution in my opinion, so it is a bit more advanced anyhow |
| 07:07 | <@Terkhen> | what I want to know is: how to display that you already supplied the town with one of the required town effects? |
| 07:12 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Why don't you just remove that resource? |
| 07:12 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Why listing something, when delivered? |
| 07:13 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: (I mean from the list) |
| 07:13 | <@Terkhen> | because you don't need all of them, you need a single unit of one of those cargos |
| 07:13 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Sure, then you would just remove the one, which is equally satisfy the town |
| 07:13 | <@Terkhen> | if for example you have two food-like cargos, delivering either is fine for town growth |
| 07:13 | <norbert79> | sure, then you would remove both food and water for example |
| 07:14 | <norbert79> | if need rises, then it will be shown again |
| 07:14 | <@Terkhen> | I would prefer a more clear feedback of what is happening |
| 07:14 | <@Terkhen> | removing the strings will be confusing |
| 07:14 | <norbert79> | why? |
| 07:14 | <norbert79> | Need changes, right? |
| 07:14 | <norbert79> | Eh, let me ask that different |
| 07:15 | <norbert79> | the need for different resources is flexible, right? |
| 07:15 | <norbert79> | sometimes wood is needed, but then later on water might be the issue |
| 07:15 | <@Terkhen> | no |
| 07:15 | <@Terkhen> | you just need a single unit of either cargo in each list |
| 07:15 | <norbert79> | and then wood might come up again |
| 07:15 | <norbert79> | oh |
| 07:15 | <@Terkhen> | if the first list is "fast food or healthy food" |
| 07:16 | <@Terkhen> | delivering a simple unit of fast food is enough |
| 07:16 | <norbert79> | The marking it green and red where the resources is needed |
| 07:16 | <norbert79> | why not continous supply? |
| 07:16 | <Korenn> | color only is not good enough |
| 07:16 | <norbert79> | why Korenn ? |
| 07:16 | <Korenn> | for color blind people |
| 07:16 | <norbert79> | true |
| 07:16 | <norbert79> | ok, checkmarks |
| 07:16 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: fixing how town growth works is outside of the scope of this patch |
| 07:16 | <@Terkhen> | this is just displaying stuff, fixing town growth will come later |
| 07:17 | <@Terkhen> | and yes, colours are not an option |
| 07:17 | <@Terkhen> | right now, it just displays the number of units delivered if you did it, but that's not an option when you have multiple types of cargos |
| 07:18 | <Korenn> | colors are still nice. but shouldn't be the only way of displaying |
| 07:18 | <norbert79> | why not listing it under each other, and mark it with a checkmark when satisfied need |
| 07:19 | <norbert79> | the need |
| 07:19 | <@planetmaker> | we should replace all colours by dark green or dark red |
| 07:19 | <@planetmaker> | makes for a good UI and game experience |
| 07:19 | <Korenn> | Terkhen: you could go 'Steel delivered' when the demand is satisfied. It's not strictly necessary to show all the possible cargoes when the demand has been met |
| 07:19 | <@Terkhen> | Korenn: there is no way to tell which cargo you delivered :) |
| 07:19 | <Korenn> | true |
| 07:19 | <Korenn> | Town Effect name? |
| 07:20 | <@Terkhen> | I could add it, it's going to be added later anyways |
| 07:20 | <@Terkhen> | planetmaker: the darker the colors, the more likely it becomes that I confuse them :P |
| 07:20 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Oh, I guess Tron-GRF would be not your thing then :) |
| 07:21 | <__ln__> | norbert79: we do not speak of Tron |
| 07:21 | <@Terkhen> | giving town effects names is IMO a bad idea... if they don't have names NewGRF authors will be able to do whatever they want with them |
| 07:21 | <@Terkhen> | so it's better if we can avoid it |
| 07:21 | <@Terkhen> | I like the "list all delivered cargos" suggestion, and it also uses info that I would need anyways for what I'm planning |
| 07:22 | <@Terkhen> | yesterday, someone (I don't remember who, sorry) suggested to show all cargo stats in a separate window |
| 07:22 | <@Terkhen> | I think that would be a good idea |
| 07:22 | <@Terkhen> | it would show all cargos delivered and produced in the town |
| 07:29 | -!- | hanf [~Klaus@host-89-242-75-83.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 07:30 | <Korenn> | Terkhen: if they have names, those could also be changed by a grf |
| 07:30 | <@Terkhen> | yes, but if they don't have names, we don't need the additional work to provide tools to change them |
| 07:31 | <Korenn> | a separate window would be acceptable, as long as there's still a quick overview in the main window where you can see if all demands have been met or not |
| 07:31 | <@Terkhen> | that's what I want, a way to display demands simply in the main window |
| 07:31 | <@Terkhen> | a long string between () is not that good IMO |
| 07:32 | <Korenn> | At its simplest, a 'Town demands have been met' string would suffice, if the rest of the info is available elsewhere |
| 07:32 | <@planetmaker> | "citizens celebrate the 'day of the transport tycoon'" |
| 07:34 | <@Terkhen> | http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- hmm... what about just changing "required" with "delivered last month" |
| 07:35 | <@planetmaker> | my suggestion: Required cargos: name1 [x], name2 [ ], name3 [x], ... |
| 07:35 | <@planetmaker> | where [x] indicates delivered and [ ] not yet delivered. Names could additionally be colour-coded |
| 07:36 | <@planetmaker> | and [x] could be the actual checkbox |
| 07:36 | <Korenn> | Terkhen: or 'supplied' |
| 07:36 | <@Terkhen> | planetmaker: that will lead people to think that they need all cargos for growth |
| 07:36 | <@Terkhen> | but you only need one unit of either of them |
| 07:37 | <Korenn> | planetmaker: there are different cargo groups that are all required, but inside the group it's an OR relation |
| 07:38 | <@planetmaker> | Then make such line for each such group :-) |
| 07:38 | <@planetmaker> | I didn't see groups in the screenshot and soley went by that |
| 07:38 | <@Terkhen> | there are two groups in the screenshots |
| 07:39 | <@Terkhen> | the first line is "food" and the second one "water" |
| 07:39 | <@planetmaker> | then I looked too sloppily and thought one is the cargos which are to be delivered and the other which are already |
| 07:39 | <@planetmaker> | might thus be a bit confusing in that representation |
| 07:39 | <@Terkhen> | that's the problem, I don't feel that the visualization is clear enough |
| 07:40 | <@planetmaker> | One of: blah, bluh, blub |
| 07:40 | <@planetmaker> | One of: nix, dies, das (already supplied) |
| 07:40 | <norbert79> | or (supplied) |
| 07:41 | <@planetmaker> | already delivered |
| 07:41 | <norbert79> | I think 'already' makes it unnecessary long |
| 07:41 | <@Terkhen> | the "last month" bit is important too |
| 07:41 | <@Terkhen> | so you get the idea that you need to deliver every month |
| 07:42 | <@planetmaker> | Cargo needed monthly for town growth: |
| 07:42 | <@planetmaker> | problem solved |
| 07:42 | <norbert79> | Delivered so far this month: that, this, thus |
| 07:42 | <@planetmaker> | then the cargo lines don't need it again |
| 07:42 | <norbert79> | yeah, good plan |
| 07:43 | <norbert79> | doesn't differ too much from my original idea ;-) |
| 07:43 | <@Terkhen> | Delivered: cargo1, cargo2 or cargo3 <--- I'm not sure about that |
| 07:43 | <@Terkhen> | I like the monthly bit on the title, I'll change that |
| 07:44 | <norbert79> | basically it's the same, when I said you should remove the cargo which has been delivered already |
| 07:44 | <norbert79> | :P |
| 07:45 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: you don't need all the cargos, delivering only one of them is fine |
| 07:45 | <@planetmaker> | nah. IMHO all cargo needs to remain written |
| 07:45 | <@Terkhen> | removing the one you delivered does not help the user, as he can't easily know which cargo he delivered or if he fulfills the requirements or not |
| 07:45 | <@planetmaker> | yes. And I might want to check it. Acceptance, requirements etc might change |
| 07:46 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Sure, but since requirements for cargo changes each month, the list is being filled up again |
| 07:46 | <@planetmaker> | And I won't see that when the strings get removed |
| 07:46 | <@Terkhen> | so you need to wait for a month to know for sure? |
| 07:46 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79, and then have the info removed on the 2nd of the month again? |
| 07:46 | <@planetmaker> | that'd be VERY bad behaviour |
| 07:46 | <norbert79> | well, some timeframe would be nice... Each month the list would be filled wiuth requirements, when fulfilled, removed, and then a new check would come in the next month |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | we're only talking about the display |
| 07:47 | <norbert79> | but it's just an idea. I would treat it like a list for buying groceries |
| 07:47 | <@planetmaker> | that e.g. the colour of the delivered cargos changes - great |
| 07:47 | <norbert79> | each month I make a new list, but some items reappeart |
| 07:47 | <norbert79> | -t |
| 07:47 | <@Terkhen> | again: you don't need all cargos |
| 07:47 | <@Terkhen> | we are trying to display if you fulfill town growth requirements or not |
| 07:47 | <@Terkhen> | and you fulfill them with just a single unit of each list |
| 07:48 | <norbert79> | exactly. I also only list things which I need to buy every month, and not add everyone |
| 07:48 | <@planetmaker> | I keep up my suggestion. Per batch of cargos display one line: |
| 07:48 | <@planetmaker> | One of: cargo1, cargo2, cargo3, ... |
| 07:48 | <norbert79> | everything... Damn I am bad with my English today |
| 07:48 | <@planetmaker> | where the actually delivered cargos are displayed in a different colour |
| 07:48 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: how would you list "we need a single unit of either cargo1, cargo2, cargo3 or cargo4"? |
| 07:48 | <@Terkhen> | I'm not sure about the colours |
| 07:48 | <@Terkhen> | hmm... |
| 07:49 | <@Terkhen> | which colour could they use? |
| 07:49 | <@planetmaker> | red and green |
| 07:49 | <norbert79> | Town needs resources of: cargo 1, cargo 2, cargo 3... Now if you fulfilled cargo 3 for the given month, until the end of the month it would be removed, but if again needed, reappear in the requirement list... |
| 07:49 | <@planetmaker> | or normal white and green for delivered |
| 07:49 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: if you fulfill cargo 3, you fulfilled all of them |
| 07:49 | <norbert79> | like a grocery list |
| 07:49 | <@Terkhen> | as you only need one of them |
| 07:49 | <norbert79> | oh |
| 07:49 | <norbert79> | why? |
| 07:49 | <@Terkhen> | because that's how the game works |
| 07:50 | <@Terkhen> | as I said, this patch does not try to change town growth yet |
| 07:50 | <@Terkhen> | just to display the vanilla way clearer |
| 07:50 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79, as you only can either eat a burger, a pizza or a döne |
| 07:50 | <@planetmaker> | *döner |
| 07:50 | <@planetmaker> | thus demand is met with one type of food |
| 07:50 | <norbert79> | Call it Gyros, that's more known outside of Germany :) |
| 07:50 | <norbert79> | but I got you |
| 07:50 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79, Gyros != Döner |
| 07:50 | <norbert79> | hmm |
| 07:51 | <@planetmaker> | kebab maybe |
| 07:51 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: I know, but many places around here don't |
| 07:51 | <norbert79> | anyway, I get it |
| 07:52 | <@Terkhen> | hmmmmm |
| 07:52 | <norbert79> | Town needs one type of the following resources to grow: |
| 07:52 | <@Terkhen> | I'm still not convinced, I think we are missing something |
| 07:52 | <norbert79> | well, planetmaker's example made it clear, but since resources are not from the same type |
| 07:52 | <norbert79> | we need to have them listed |
| 07:53 | <norbert79> | like Water != Coal |
| 07:53 | <norbert79> | no connection |
| 07:53 | <norbert79> | you cannot say: liquids |
| 07:54 | <norbert79> | grouping the resources would be nice, but not possible: "Location needs one type of resource to grow further:" |
| 07:55 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, I think the way you showed with more explicit wording will work |
| 07:55 | <norbert79> | Casear 3 showed detailed messages, yet there was always just one resource/need to get satisfied |
| 07:56 | <@Terkhen> | which wording? :) |
| 07:56 | <@Terkhen> | right now I have: |
| 07:56 | <@Terkhen> | {ORANGE}Required: {RAW_STRING}{BLACK} (only in winter) |
| 07:56 | <@Terkhen> | {ORANGE}Delivered: {RAW_STRING}{BLACK} (only in winter) |
| 07:56 | <@Terkhen> | (and the versions without the winter addition) |
| 07:56 | <@Terkhen> | oh, and |
| 07:56 | <@Terkhen> | {BLACK}Cargo needed monthly for town growth: |
| 07:57 | <@planetmaker> | That's where I like to suggest to not prefix it by "Required" or "Delivered" but always by a "One of: " |
| 07:57 | <@planetmaker> | and postfix the string with (delivered) and / or (only in winter) |
| 07:57 | <@planetmaker> | hm.. In winter one of: |
| 07:58 | <norbert79> | "One of:" might be misleading, making users think they would only need 1 tons/litres/whatever |
| 07:58 | <@planetmaker> | that makes clear that it is a continuous demand. And the info which is fulfilled comes after the primary information of "you need this" |
| 07:58 | <@planetmaker> | norbert79, which is true |
| 07:58 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: you only need 1 ton / litre / whatever |
| 07:58 | <norbert79> | oh |
| 07:58 | <norbert79> | then it's solved :) |
| 07:58 | <@Terkhen> | yeah, the system is braindead as that :P |
| 07:58 | <@planetmaker> | even. If we change that, the string is easily changed to |
| 07:59 | <norbert79> | for now, yes, but it might be changed futher on. |
| 07:59 | <norbert79> | true |
| 07:59 | <@Terkhen> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/636/ |
| 07:59 | <@planetmaker> | One of: butter (12t), coke (200l), peanuts (20t) |
| 07:59 | <@Terkhen> | nah, town growth will not change |
| 07:59 | <@planetmaker> | newgrf :-P |
| 07:59 | <norbert79> | STR_TOWN_VIEW_CARGO_FOR_TOWNGROWTH_REQUIRED_SUPPLIED_WINTER :{ORANGE}One of: {RAW_STRING}{BLACK} (delivered) |
| 07:59 | <@planetmaker> | but that might be a condition too far |
| 07:59 | <@Terkhen> | newgrfs should have the option to remove the default view and substitute it with their own |
| 08:00 | <@Terkhen> | then you can do whatever you want |
| 08:00 | <norbert79> | hmm, delivered, and "winter delivery" |
| 08:00 | <@planetmaker> | :-) |
| 08:00 | <@Terkhen> | is the winter info really necessary if you are delivering anyways? |
| 08:00 | <norbert79> | Why is STR_TOWN_VIEW_CARGO_FOR_TOWNGROWTH_REQUIRED_SUPPLIED_WINTER there then? |
| 08:00 | <@planetmaker> | I'd add it |
| 08:00 | <@planetmaker> | In winter one of: {RAW_STRING} (delivered) |
| 08:01 | <@Terkhen> | winter delivery does not say "you only need to deliver in winter" |
| 08:01 | <norbert79> | I like planetmaker's approach |
| 08:01 | <@planetmaker> | but it should ;-) |
| 08:01 | <@planetmaker> | delivery in summer has no influence |
| 08:01 | <norbert79> | In winter, one of: |
| 08:02 | <@Terkhen> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/637/ |
| 08:02 | <norbert79> | Nice |
| 08:03 | <@Terkhen> | it's missing the correct colour tags of course |
| 08:03 | <norbert79> | need would be marked with yellow, and when satisfied with green |
| 08:03 | <norbert79> | imho |
| 08:03 | <norbert79> | red would look make your eyes hurt... or yellow and black |
| 08:03 | <@planetmaker> | what can I say :-) I hardly argue against my own suggestions ;-) |
| 08:04 | <@Terkhen> | I'd prefer to avoid colours |
| 08:04 | <@planetmaker> | colour can be added any time |
| 08:04 | <@planetmaker> | well, some colour makes sense |
| 08:04 | <@Terkhen> | they are not clear, and the window would need a tooltip then |
| 08:04 | <@planetmaker> | currently the season info is a different colour. But that's not needed |
| 08:04 | <norbert79> | yellow and black would be nice though, like when you turn on a lamp, and turn it off |
| 08:04 | <@Terkhen> | if the window needs a tooltip, you would need to change it for NewGRFs |
| 08:04 | <@planetmaker> | but I'd like the cargo to be of different colour |
| 08:04 | <@planetmaker> | should the colour code then go into that string here? |
| 08:04 | <@Terkhen> | cargos orange, txt black |
| 08:05 | <norbert79> | yes |
| 08:05 | <@Terkhen> | as it was already |
| 08:05 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, then the {ORANGE} is wrong |
| 08:05 | <@Terkhen> | yes, I said that the tags are wrong :) |
| 08:05 | <@Terkhen> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/638/ |
| 08:05 | <@planetmaker> | oh, sorry, missed that |
| 08:05 | <norbert79> | no, I mean text black, cargo needed yellow, when satisfied turning it to black |
| 08:05 | <@planetmaker> | that's a good colouring scheme, yes |
| 08:06 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: then you need a text explaining that colour scheme, probably in a tooltip |
| 08:06 | <@planetmaker> | removing the colour highlight |
| 08:06 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, no... the text, as is, needs not be changed for that |
| 08:06 | <@Terkhen> | after that, once that OpenTTD allows to change the town growth scheme to "anything", you will need to change the tooltipt oo |
| 08:06 | <@Terkhen> | how will I know that cargo needed is yellow and satisfied is black? |
| 08:07 | <@planetmaker> | well, what's wrong with adding that to the tooltip |
| 08:07 | <@planetmaker> | and making the tooltip newgrf-exposed? |
| 08:07 | <norbert79> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/639/ - my proposal |
| 08:07 | <@planetmaker> | or part of it |
| 08:07 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png |
| 08:07 | <@Terkhen> | the rest of the "normal" text in the window is black |
| 08:07 | <@Terkhen> | in most windows actually |
| 08:08 | <norbert79> | Sure, that's why the title would be white |
| 08:08 | <norbert79> | but wanted to emphasize a bit |
| 08:08 | <norbert79> | so I am not misunderstood |
| 08:08 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, changing colour from yellow to black for delivered cargos also allows to see which of the cargos triggered the "delivered" |
| 08:09 | <@Terkhen> | it also needs storing that information in the town (currently you only store the town effect amount received) |
| 08:09 | <@Terkhen> | adding that information to savegames and adding the tooltip |
| 08:10 | <@planetmaker> | hm, I thought it is stored anyway which cargo has been deliverd? |
| 08:10 | <@planetmaker> | or only which towneffect fulfilled? |
| 08:10 | <@Terkhen> | town effect fulfilled |
| 08:10 | <@planetmaker> | I see. |
| 08:10 | <@planetmaker> | then I withdraw that suggestion until the cargos are available anyway |
| 08:10 | <@Terkhen> | that info will probably be needed for town growth NewGRFs, yes |
| 08:11 | <@Terkhen> | but adding it now just for clarity is IMO not a priority |
| 08:11 | <@planetmaker> | I'm sure it's an info which players *will* want. I'd want it |
| 08:11 | <@planetmaker> | yes, agreed |
| 08:11 | <@planetmaker> | I thought you had that info already |
| 08:11 | <@planetmaker> | then just change the cargo colour from yellow to black when the effect is fulfilled |
| 08:12 | <@Terkhen> | I want that too, but adding 32 int32 for each town just for that is not good :P |
| 08:12 | <@planetmaker> | i.e. remove the highlight |
| 08:12 | <@Terkhen> | IMO adding (delivered) is clearer |
| 08:12 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, both. |
| 08:12 | <@planetmaker> | I don't argue against the 'delivered'. I want that |
| 08:12 | <@planetmaker> | But colour is faster visible than reading text |
| 08:13 | <@Terkhen> | http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- all "information" in the window is orange, why should it change to black? the important part of the info will not be highlighted then |
| 08:13 | <@planetmaker> | I get the info w/o reading a single letter when colour changes |
| 08:13 | <@planetmaker> | The important part will still be highlighted: the missing cargo |
| 08:14 | <@Terkhen> | which missing cargo? |
| 08:14 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: I would still highlight the line of "Cargo needed for growth", since we want to tell the player: Hey, I need this |
| 08:14 | <appe> | i see what u did thar |
| 08:14 | <appe> | *trollface* |
| 08:14 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Making it white |
| 08:14 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, I want the yellow text only as long as the cargo is still required that month |
| 08:14 | <@Terkhen> | why should this information be "special"? all lists of information in OpenTTD follow the same black/orange pattern |
| 08:14 | <@planetmaker> | if it is not required anymore, then black |
| 08:15 | <@planetmaker> | yes. They still do. But highlight the important thing: the required part |
| 08:15 | <@planetmaker> | I'm not that much interested in what I have delivered |
| 08:15 | <norbert79> | or anyone else |
| 08:15 | <@Terkhen> | I'm not interested in the design year for vehicles either, but it also appears orange for consistency |
| 08:15 | <norbert79> | it matters what I have to/can deliver |
| 08:15 | <@planetmaker> | it also wouldn't break any pattern |
| 08:16 | <@Terkhen> | check any window with a list of fields :P |
| 08:16 | <@Terkhen> | they all follow the black/orange pattern (in some cases black/light blue) |
| 08:17 | <norbert79> | even town info? |
| 08:17 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 08:17 | <norbert79> | all data |
| 08:17 | <norbert79> | hmm |
| 08:17 | <@Terkhen> | yes |
| 08:17 | <norbert79> | well, I would still prefer getting the cargos highlighted which I need to deliver |
| 08:17 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, I know that. But *all* those lists are just info on something which never changes |
| 08:17 | <norbert79> | and make it black when done |
| 08:17 | <@planetmaker> | this is a tri-state thing |
| 08:18 | <@Terkhen> | every other list displays information with text |
| 08:18 | <@planetmaker> | I don't think it's right to say it breaks consistency |
| 08:18 | <@Terkhen> | I don't see why we need to change it for this field |
| 08:18 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, for a better user experience, for a better UI |
| 08:18 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Which can be overlooked... If you don't highlight needed cargo, why listing delivered cargo at all? |
| 08:18 | <@Terkhen> | maybe because changing colours of stuff just confuses me usually |
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| 08:18 | <@planetmaker> | a quick glance with everything highlighted will always give me the wrong impression |
| 08:19 | <@planetmaker> | and as too many colours are not good, the good solution here is: "highlight the important, still needed stuff" |
| 08:19 | <@planetmaker> | I'm sure you could ask an UI expert and he'd agree with me ;-) |
| 08:19 | <@Terkhen> | why is knowing that you delivered cargo not important? |
| 08:19 | <@planetmaker> | because I want the town to grow? |
| 08:20 | <norbert79> | exactly |
| 08:20 | <@planetmaker> | and it's not like that info becomes inaccessible |
| 08:20 | <@planetmaker> | it's just not highlighted |
| 08:20 | <@Terkhen> | so, if you deliver one of the cargos, you make them harder to read on purpose |
| 08:20 | <@planetmaker> | is black harder to read? |
| 08:20 | <norbert79> | no, marking it yellow or white wouldn't make it to be read harder... |
| 08:20 | <@Terkhen> | it's not highlighted |
| 08:20 | <norbert79> | even though even white letters have basic shadow |
| 08:20 | <@Terkhen> | therefore it's more complicated to tell the information from the title |
| 08:21 | <norbert79> | it's perfect on the current coloured window |
| 08:21 | <@planetmaker> | eh? |
| 08:21 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Why don't you try it first? |
| 08:21 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Why not give it a try? |
| 08:21 | <@Terkhen> | I've already tried it |
| 08:21 | <norbert79> | I only see the same window over and over again |
| 08:21 | <@planetmaker> | it's a big bonus on the UI :-) |
| 08:21 | <norbert79> | you didn't paste any screenshots based on our proposal |
| 08:21 | <@Terkhen> | because uploading screenshots is a PITA |
| 08:22 | <norbert79> | even though you don't like it, we might like it :) |
| 08:22 | <@planetmaker> | a small 'delivered' added somewhere is easily overlooked, the important information stuffed away in the last place (literally) |
| 08:22 | <@Terkhen> | a black line is overlooked, because every other line in the game has the information highlighted in a different colour |
| 08:22 | <@planetmaker> | which is ok. The black lines have been taken care of |
| 08:23 | <@Terkhen> | so it is not important to know that you delivered cargo to the town? |
| 08:23 | <@planetmaker> | it's less important than what I miss |
| 08:23 | <norbert79> | No, we are just asying it's important to see, what's important, and the rest can stay black |
| 08:23 | <@planetmaker> | as the missing thing blocks my progress |
| 08:23 | <@Terkhen> | so why is that information less important than Max Reliability or Introduction Date? |
| 08:23 | <@Terkhen> | I want to display them black too, I don't need them |
| 08:23 | <@planetmaker> | you now compare apples and pears |
| 08:24 | <@Terkhen> | well, consistency is about comparing apples and pears :P |
| 08:24 | <@planetmaker> | as I explained: they are properties which have no state which changes |
| 08:24 | <@planetmaker> | displaying the reliability as colour code might make sense for < 30% or so. In red |
| 08:24 | <@Terkhen> | yes |
| 08:25 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Just try it for once please, and make a screenshot... Then compare the before and after... I am sure you will understand how well it will help people focusing on town needs, rather just on constructing |
| 08:25 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: I'll take a screenshot just so you believe me |
| 08:25 | <@Terkhen> | I already tried it |
| 08:25 | <norbert79> | thank you... |
| 08:25 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, when playing the game we try to solve problems |
| 08:25 | <norbert79> | (Btw I use the built in fonttypes, no own ones) |
| 08:25 | <@planetmaker> | and the problem one can have with a town is |
| 08:25 | <@Terkhen> | planetmaker: the red example is wrong in this case |
| 08:25 | <@planetmaker> | - growth |
| 08:25 | <@Terkhen> | red gives you additional info |
| 08:25 | <@planetmaker> | - authority rating |
| 08:26 | <@Terkhen> | black only makes things harder to read |
| 08:26 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Which is always a huge problem for me |
| 08:26 | <@Terkhen> | because it is the same colour used for titles |
| 08:26 | <@Terkhen> | making something harder to read is not a good help |
| 08:26 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, then choose a 3rd colour |
| 08:26 | <norbert79> | green |
| 08:26 | <@planetmaker> | But distinguish it |
| 08:26 | <@planetmaker> | green |
| 08:26 | <@Terkhen> | that's what I said when you suggested black... |
| 08:27 | <norbert79> | Green for highlighting :) |
| 08:27 | <@Terkhen> | black + black is harder to read |
| 08:27 | <norbert79> | not for completed |
| 08:27 | <@planetmaker> | sorry, I only read "I don't want colour" :-) |
| 08:27 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Still this is what I saw on your screenshots :)) |
| 08:27 | <@Terkhen> | I want consistency |
| 08:27 | <@planetmaker> | then I've been arguing like Don Quichote |
| 08:27 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: And people gameplay :) |
| 08:27 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, and I want a quick and easy to use GUI |
| 08:27 | <@planetmaker> | and not read every letter to see what I want to know |
| 08:28 | <@Terkhen> | we can have both :P |
| 08:28 | <@Terkhen> | my point is: |
| 08:28 | <@planetmaker> | Yes, if we can have three colours, all the better |
| 08:28 | <@Terkhen> | black + black -> I can't tell the title from the info |
| 08:28 | <@Terkhen> | so if I don't know for sure what's there, I need to read |
| 08:28 | <norbert79> | no |
| 08:28 | <@planetmaker> | Using only two colours was a concession to you actually ;-) |
| 08:28 | <norbert79> | this is how YOU do |
| 08:28 | <norbert79> | but people just ignore such |
| 08:28 | <norbert79> | and think on fast rounds |
| 08:28 | <@Terkhen> | what? |
| 08:29 | <norbert79> | or where the network is way spread |
| 08:29 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, so: yellow for "needs delivery". green for "has been delivered" |
| 08:29 | <norbert79> | people want information fast and quick |
| 08:29 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: you misunderstood me |
| 08:29 | <norbert79> | I would still make "delivered black" |
| 08:29 | <@Terkhen> | I want my information quick |
| 08:29 | <@planetmaker> | then you need to use different colours for text, needed cargo and delivered cargo |
| 08:29 | <@planetmaker> | three different ones |
| 08:29 | <norbert79> | sure, but I also want only the information which helps me moving further... |
| 08:30 | <@Terkhen> | http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- that's why I don't want to read this blob of text because I can't tell the titles from the actual information |
| 08:30 | <@planetmaker> | colour is the quickest information way you can provide to a user |
| 08:30 | <@Terkhen> | exactly, that's why using black + black is a bad idea |
| 08:30 | <@Terkhen> | you remove information |
| 08:30 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: No, way away from what I wanted to see.. wait... |
| 08:30 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: need to GIMP it |
| 08:31 | <@planetmaker> | Terkhen, yes. We don't need to argue about black anymore. That's done |
| 08:31 | <@Terkhen> | he's arguing about black :P |
| 08:31 | <@planetmaker> | My preferred solution is 3 colours |
| 08:31 | <@Terkhen> | planetmaker: then we are back to the tooltip discussion |
| 08:31 | <@planetmaker> | Tooltip is fine |
| 08:31 | <@Terkhen> | I don't mind adding that tooltip, as long as we are not doing the per-cargo colours |
| 08:31 | <@Terkhen> | if all cargos are displayed in the same colours, then I don't mind it at all |
| 08:32 | <@planetmaker> | no. Just 3. "needed cargos", "delivered cargos" and the rest of the text |
| 08:32 | <@planetmaker> | all cargos of a single type |
| 08:33 | <@planetmaker> | thus the cargo colour of one line is consistently the same (as we can't distinguish cargos (yet)) |
| 08:34 | <@Terkhen> | compiling... |
| 08:34 | <@planetmaker> | the colour for the cargo in different lines might of course differ |
| 08:37 | <@Terkhen> | http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- the colour I chose is horrible, but something like this |
| 08:38 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/930/town.png |
| 08:38 | <norbert79> | Still consistent |
| 08:38 | <norbert79> | but main points are highlighted |
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| 08:39 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: I know you meant black only for delivered, the previous screenshot was a result of my hack |
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| 08:39 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Sure, I know, but wanted to share what I had in my mind |
| 08:39 | <@Terkhen> | it is not consistent: I need to read the line itself to see where the title (One of) ends and the information (the list of cargos) start |
| 08:39 | <Elukka> | unrelated gratuitous train |
| 08:39 | <Elukka> | http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/br50.jpg |
| 08:40 | <@Terkhen> | with the usual way of displaying information, I can ignore the title (which I already know) and jump to the information |
| 08:40 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Don't agree, main necessary cargos are listed, I instantly know what I need to deliver |
| 08:40 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Since only "to be delivered" are highlighted |
| 08:40 | <norbert79> | Elukka: Wonderful looking |
| 08:40 | <@Terkhen> | why aren't cargos already delivered important? |
| 08:41 | <norbert79> | because the focus is on growth, not history |
| 08:41 | <Elukka> | got it in the mail yesterday |
| 08:41 | <norbert79> | but still good to know |
| 08:41 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: do you agree that black |
| 08:41 | <@Terkhen> | + black is more complicated to read? |
| 08:42 | <@Terkhen> | that's the whole point of this discussion, not the relative importance of different fields |
| 08:42 | <@Terkhen> | at least for me |
| 08:42 | <norbert79> | http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png - this only makes my eye hurt, because I only want to know what to deliver... |
| 08:43 | <norbert79> | Make it grey then |
| 08:43 | <norbert79> | if black-black is a problem |
| 08:43 | <@Terkhen> | as I said when I pasted the screenshot, the colour chosen is horrible |
| 08:43 | <@Terkhen> | I just picked a random one |
| 08:43 | <@Terkhen> | green would be fine I guess |
| 08:43 | <@Terkhen> | err, grey, sorry |
| 08:43 | <norbert79> | no, green has more focus, than yellow |
| 08:43 | <norbert79> | ok :) |
| 08:43 | <norbert79> | grey is better |
| 08:43 | <norbert79> | lets try and see |
| 08:43 | <@Terkhen> | not today though, I had enough testing already |
| 08:44 | <@Terkhen> | bbl |
| 08:44 | <norbert79> | sure |
| 08:50 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | <@Terkhen> [...]the colour chosen is horrible <- said the colourblind guy? :) |
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| 09:09 | <@Terkhen> | Eddi|nichZuHause: that does not mean that I see on black and white... |
| 09:10 | <norbert79> | greyscale that is |
| 09:10 | <norbert79> | :) |
| 09:10 | <norbert79> | I guess |
| 09:10 | <norbert79> | it's like watching an old television with no colours, right? |
| 09:11 | <norbert79> | ok, this was a dumb question, since how he should know different... ok, void it :) |
| 09:12 | <@planetmaker> | there is _many_ shades of colour vision and different facettes of what commonly is called "colour blind" |
| 09:12 | <@Terkhen> | I can see all colours |
| 09:12 | <@planetmaker> | I never know which colours my boss sees and which not ;-) I'm constantly surprised one way or the other |
| 09:13 | <@Terkhen> | I just confuse red and green when they are in dark tones |
| 09:13 | <norbert79> | so it's more like mixing up colours |
| 09:13 | <@planetmaker> | or rather s/see/distinguish/ |
| 09:13 | <@Terkhen> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness#Red.E2.80.93green_color_blindness |
| 09:13 | <@Terkhen> | read up if you are interested |
| 09:13 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Cheers |
| 09:13 | <@Terkhen> | real color blindness is quite rare |
| 09:13 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 09:13 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: I am always a bit confused by the english term, in Hungarian we differentiate mixing colours and not seeing colours at all |
| 09:13 | <V453000> | well at least you can be sure you are a male :P |
| 09:14 | <@planetmaker> | I just used that word in lack of a better one to describe reduced colour perception |
| 09:14 | <@Terkhen> | we just use daltonism |
| 09:14 | <@planetmaker> | never heart that word, tbh :-) |
| 09:14 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/Ishihara_compare_1.jpg - Which one is closer to your state, if you could point it out for me |
| 09:14 | <@Terkhen> | planetmaker: it's because that's what dalton had |
| 09:15 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: I can see the number in all four images |
| 09:16 | <@Terkhen> | so... no clue |
| 09:16 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Weird, I cannot on the Protanope one, unless I focus enough :) |
| 09:16 | <@Terkhen> | besides, in theory I shouldn't be able to tell |
| 09:16 | <@planetmaker> | completely w/o context: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/640/ <-- the beauty of awk :-) |
| 09:16 | <norbert79> | Terkhen: Sure, but still... You can blame one for asking :) |
| 09:16 | <norbert79> | can't |
| 09:16 | <@Terkhen> | norbert79: I'm used to focus a lot, I don't need to put effort on it |
| 09:16 | <@planetmaker> | took me probably to write as long as hand-converting. But was more fun ;-) |
| 09:17 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Lol, well, nice solution though |
| 09:17 | <@Terkhen> | planetmaker: looks crazy |
| 09:17 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: but some sed and awk could have helped :) |
| 09:17 | <@planetmaker> | do you know the problem, norbert79 ? ;-) |
| 09:17 | <norbert79> | planetmaker: Just about understanding it :) |
| 09:18 | <@planetmaker> | cat ../../nfo/extra/extra-chars.pnfo | ~/scripts/glyph2nml > extra-chars.pnml |
| 09:18 | <norbert79> | Ah, now I get it, cheers |
| 09:18 | <norbert79> | basically listing using specific parameters |
| 09:19 | <@planetmaker> | basically converting some valid nfo to valid nml ;-) |
| 09:19 | <@planetmaker> | for a very specific case, though |
| 09:20 | <norbert79> | well, the file writing wasn't included, but only through your command line :P :) I was looking at the code :) |
| 09:23 | <@planetmaker> | http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/641/ <-- effect on the files |
| 09:24 | <norbert79> | Well done, looks nice |
| 09:24 | <@planetmaker> | I guess I'll emply awk more often... I learnt quite a bit and it makes multi-line replacement etc quite easy as it seems |
| 09:34 | <@Belugas> | hello |
| 09:35 | <Korenn> | Terkhen: I used {YELLOW} in my patch |
| 09:36 | <Korenn> | subtle difference, but enough to jump out |
| 09:36 | <@Terkhen> | Korenn: ok, I'll try it too :) |
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| 09:58 | <norbert79> | Hi Belugas... You always enter, when we are already exhausted :) |
| 09:59 | <@peter1138> | fnar |
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| 10:57 | * | dihedral yawns |
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| 13:35 | * | andythenorth is on an actual train |
| 13:36 | <__ln__> | newgrf? |
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| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: translators * r23026 /trunk/src/lang/ (esperanto.txt latvian.txt): |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: esperanto - 4 changes by Ailanto |
| 13:45 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: latvian - 53 changes by Parastais |
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| 14:10 | * | andythenorth wants to try the french set |
| 14:10 | * | andythenorth is in Swindon, but fortunately will soon be leaving |
| 14:11 | <Elukka> | the city of roundabouts everywhere |
| 14:11 | <Elukka> | it's like they just decided |
| 14:11 | <Elukka> | more roundabouts |
| 14:12 | <Elukka> | and at the center they put a roundabout that's five roundabouts combined and in every direction you may go there will be more rounadabouts |
| 14:12 | <andythenorth> | it's very nice if you like roundabouts |
| 14:21 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: I am wondering about refactoring FIRS code |
| 14:21 | <andythenorth> | it might be a good time to do that soon |
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| 14:21 | <@Terkhen> | again? :P |
| 14:22 | * | planetmaker wonders what needs (again) refactoring |
| 14:22 | <andythenorth> | refactoring names of constants etc |
| 14:22 | <andythenorth> | refactoring == code tidy in this context |
| 14:22 | <@planetmaker> | I see little need |
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| 14:22 | <andythenorth> | wondered if you'd say that :) |
| 14:23 | <@planetmaker> | but I also don't know what exactly you mean |
| 14:24 | <andythenorth> | naming spritesets etc |
| 14:24 | <andythenorth> | consistency in which macros are used |
| 14:24 | <andythenorth> | that kind of thing |
| 14:25 | <@planetmaker> | it certainly can use a bit tidy up still in that respect. |
| 14:25 | <andythenorth> | time will tell if I actually get motivated do it |
| 14:26 | <andythenorth> | it's the right thing to do though |
| 14:27 | <@Terkhen> | http://devs.openttd.org/~terkhen/screenshots/town.png <--- does it look good with yellow? |
| 14:27 | <andythenorth> | looks ok |
| 14:28 | <@Yexo> | it looks the wrong way around |
| 14:28 | <@Yexo> | the yellow stands out more than the orange |
| 14:28 | <@Yexo> | so it draws attention to the cargo which you don't need to provide |
| 14:28 | <@Yexo> | instead of drawing attention to the cargoes you're missing |
| 14:28 | <andythenorth> | what's the significance of each line? |
| 14:28 | <andythenorth> | anyway, this 'one of' thing is nonsense :P |
| 14:28 | <@planetmaker> | I agree with yexo |
| 14:28 | <@Terkhen> | Yexo: I agree, let's see with gray |
| 14:29 | <@planetmaker> | Use a light gray |
| 14:29 | <@Terkhen> | andythenorth: "you need to deliver a unit of either of the following cargos for town growth" |
| 14:29 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: in a game without newgrfs the first line would only contain "food" and the second line only "water" |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | "it should be stockpiling, but without limits, but you shouldn't be able to deliver too much, and you should get rewarded for delivering lots, but you shouldn't be able to just deliver all the cargo once forever" |
| 14:29 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 14:29 | <@Terkhen> | I don't think that a different colour is necessary, but most people think that if you already delivered what you needed it should stand out :P |
| 14:30 | <@Terkhen> | it only fixes how cargos with different town effects are displayed |
| 14:30 | <@Terkhen> | so it does not fix town growth at all |
| 14:30 | <@Yexo> | Terkhen: what about swapping the yellow and orange? |
| 14:30 | <@Yexo> | yellow if not delivered, orange if delivered |
| 14:30 | <@Terkhen> | swapping would be fine by me |
| 14:30 | <@Yexo> | that was the only problem I had with the colors |
| 14:30 | <@Terkhen> | yellow seems to mean "something is wrong, fix it" |
| 14:30 | <@Terkhen> | and orange does not stand |
| 14:31 | <@Terkhen> | *out |
| 14:31 | <@Terkhen> | so it's better to use yellow for not delivered |
| 14:31 | <@Yexo> | exactly |
| 14:31 | <andythenorth> | 'delivered' does not need to stand out. |
| 14:31 | <andythenorth> | it's not information |
| 14:31 | <andythenorth> | information is 'not delivered' |
| 14:32 | <@Terkhen> | so yellow for not delivered and orange for delivered |
| 14:32 | <@Terkhen> | exactly the contrary of what's in the screenshot |
| 14:33 | <andythenorth> | :) |
| 14:33 | <@Terkhen> | bbl |
| 14:35 | <andythenorth> | http://www.perceptualedge.com/articles/b-eye/choosing_colors.pdf |
| 14:38 | <@Terkhen> | that could work for me if I trusted my own eyes to choose colours that everyone else will like too |
| 14:39 | <Rubidium> | I'd use transparent blue ;) |
| 14:39 | <andythenorth> | I'd stick to what the game already uses |
| 14:39 | <andythenorth> | orange, white, yellow etc |
| 14:40 | <andythenorth> | shame there's no <blink> tag :P |
| 14:40 | <andythenorth> | we should patch text drawing to add blink |
| 14:40 | <andythenorth> | then we could have an advanced setting for 'blink rate' :P |
| 14:40 | <andythenorth> | oh what joy |
| 14:43 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: you could try the water colors for text? |
| 14:43 | <andythenorth> | he |
| 14:43 | <andythenorth> | or the level crossing colour |
| 14:45 | * | andythenorth has had enough internets for today |
| 14:45 | <andythenorth> | bye :) |
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| 14:56 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | what's wrong with the phrase "Also so eine abgrundtief dämliche Argumentation..."? |
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| 14:57 | <@planetmaker> | Eddi|nichZuHause: it's missing a "," |
| 14:57 | <@planetmaker> | I'm not sure about the capitalization of "abgrundtief". But probably correct |
| 14:57 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | i just got a "friendly warning" that such expressions are not accepted in the forum... |
| 14:58 | <@planetmaker> | I'm sure I perfectly answered past your real question ;-) |
| 14:59 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | by a mod that happens to coincide with the person i replied to |
| 14:59 | <appe> | http://gyazo.com/b5f9e63512c6414d365b1c81eabaa676.png <- how come i cant build the industry here? |
| 14:59 | <@planetmaker> | He. That's... an interesting mix of responsibility then |
| 15:01 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | i replied that i don't quite understand what he means... neither did i personally insult anybody, nor did i use curse words |
| 15:03 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | btw.: "tief", and also the combination "abgrundtief" are adjectives, and as such are written lower case |
| 15:04 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | not sure where you want to put a comma |
| 15:05 | <@planetmaker> | Also, ... |
| 15:08 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | that puts the emphasis on a different place than i intended |
| 15:08 | <appe> | what on earth |
| 15:08 | <appe> | this grf confuses me |
| 15:09 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | too close to desert? |
| 15:10 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | haven't played with ECS in years... and tropic neither |
| 15:11 | <appe> | can i create more green areas myself? |
| 15:11 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | only in scenario editor |
| 15:11 | <appe> | i see |
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| 15:25 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | i'm bored and want to go home... |
| 15:25 | <CIA-2> | OpenTTD: yexo * r23027 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h strings.cpp): -Fix: in some cases NewGRF string arguments were popped twice from the newgrf textstack |
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| 15:34 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | "Guess who was hacked today" - http://www.sueddeutsche.de/digital/datendiebstahl-bei-sony-hacker-knacken-kundenkonten-1.1160130 :p |
| 15:38 | <@planetmaker> | :-P |
| 15:47 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | is there some generic version-agnostic way to get the location of excel.exe? |
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| 15:51 | <frosch123> | try "which ooffice" |
| 15:51 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | hehe :) |
| 15:51 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | but isn't it loffice nowadays? |
| 15:52 | <frosch123> | might be, it was soffice before |
| 15:52 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | well, it'd probably suffice if i could tell python "open this .xls file with the standard associated program" |
| 15:52 | <valhallasw> | Eddi|nichZuHause: cmd /k excel? |
| 15:52 | <@SmatZ> | Eddi|nichZuHause: again? ... |
| 15:53 | <blathijs> | It's "libreoffice" on linux |
| 15:53 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | SmatZ: last time i settled for hardcoding the full path |
| 15:53 | <@SmatZ> | and yes, you are right, it's lo* now :) |
| 15:53 | <valhallasw> | Eddi|nichZuHause: do you need to communicate with excel? |
| 15:54 | <@SmatZ> | [21:53:23] <SmatZ> Eddi|nichZuHause: again? ... <== I meant that sony hacker |
| 15:54 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | valhallasw: no, just open the file |
| 15:54 | <frosch123> | i guess it is unlikely to become foffice :p |
| 15:54 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | SmatZ: ah... |
| 15:54 | <valhallasw> | if not- try os.shell("start <filename>"), or popen("cmd /c start <filename>") |
| 15:54 | <@SmatZ> | Eddi|nichZuHause: start "file" |
| 15:54 | <@SmatZ> | frosch123: hehe :) |
| 15:54 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | aha. let me try that |
| 15:55 | <valhallasw> | except it's not called .shell |
| 15:55 | <valhallasw> | but os.system |
| 15:58 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | the cmd /c thing seems to work |
| 16:03 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | so... why does the python installer do not put python into the path? |
| 16:03 | <@planetmaker> | oh, a SmatZ :-) |
| 16:04 | <Rubidium> | did you reboot after installing? |
| 16:04 | <@Terkhen> | if it put python into the path, closing the console and opening another should be enough |
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| 16:08 | <Wolf01> | hello |
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| 16:13 | <Rubidium> | Terkhen: I've seen it make a difference; some installers run some post install during the next boot |
| 16:13 | <@Terkhen> | hmm... that doesn't sound very helpful |
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| 16:15 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | no, i did not reboot... |
| 16:23 | <@SmatZ> | hello planetmaker :-) |
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| 16:35 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | what's the win7 way for listing known filetypes and their associated program? |
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| 16:38 | <@planetmaker> | g'night |
| 16:38 | <@Yexo> | control panel -> programs -> default programs -> set associations |
| 16:43 | <@Belugas> | Don't give up |
| 16:43 | <@Belugas> | cause you have friends |
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| 16:58 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | bäh... i |
| 16:58 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | 'm really bored |
| 16:58 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | i'm out of here... |
| 16:58 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | where's the next fuel station? |
| 17:00 | <@Terkhen> | Next to a road |
| 17:02 | <z-MaTRiX> | "Take your chance to use this open window..." |
| 17:05 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | ECoherenceWarning |
| 17:06 | <Eddi|nichZuHause> | anyway... bye |
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| 17:19 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 17:22 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
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| 19:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | hm... so nothing happened in the past 2:30h |
| 19:36 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Ammler: is there possibly some way i don't get 50 emails in a distance of 5 seconds, when someone mass-deletes files from a ticket? |
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| --- | Log | closed Thu Oct 13 00:00:36 2011 |
