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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-12

---Logopened Wed Oct 12 00:00:35 2011
00:04<supermop>should i make a suggestion in the suggestion forum, or would that annoy people?
00:17<@planetmaker>you can post all kind of phantasies and wishlists in the suggestions forum ;-)
00:18<supermop>are you familiar with the kompact label in Koln, planetmaker?
00:18<@planetmaker>with what?
00:19<@planetmaker>(the answer thus is probably 'no' ;-) )
00:19<supermop>its a german music label
00:19<@planetmaker>never heart of it
00:19<@planetmaker>but I'm a music-industry-agnostic
00:19<supermop>its fairly niche, so it would be odd if you had
00:19<supermop>its a small shop
00:20<supermop>they do mostly minimalist electronic
00:20<supermop>(shop meaning company, not an actual record shop)
00:22<supermop>I sometimes feel like quite the fish out of water in OTTD land
00:24<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
00:24<@planetmaker>for all the boundaries you find?
00:26<supermop>i meant demographically
00:26<supermop>I have no programming background
00:27<supermop>seem to have a different taste graphically to most users/contributors etc
00:27<@planetmaker>there's quite a few who don't have an IT background
00:27<@planetmaker>(i.e. everything I know there is mostly self-taught)
00:28<supermop>i like to approach it from a design/planning standpoint
00:28<@planetmaker>damn abbreviations ;-)
00:28<supermop>but i run into walls with coding
00:29<supermop>yes we should just merge ie and eg to save on misuse and embarassment
00:29<supermop>also it seems everyone active here is older than I, but in the tycoon channel, i am older than everyone there
00:33<@planetmaker>hm, everyone here _older_ than you? That'd be... interesting.
00:33<@planetmaker>Though it depends on how old you are, of course
00:34<supermop>just an impression i get
00:34<supermop>I guess you guys come across and having your act together
00:34<@planetmaker>please rephrase
00:35<@planetmaker>(I don't understand that wording)
00:35<supermop>hmm having your act together... having your ducks in a row
00:35<@planetmaker>hm... I see. Too sane ;-)
00:36<supermop>i guess it implies a copetence and organization
00:36<supermop>along with so coherent motivation or vision
00:37<@planetmaker>I guess it's a bit of self-selection that those people with a somewhat common vision of the game gather
00:38<supermop>so, someone who knows what they want to be doing, and made an effort to be capable of doing it
00:39<@planetmaker>well... it's how open-source works: those who want to do something, just do it. And share it
00:39<supermop>yeah, it seems very mature
00:40<supermop>so i guess i got them impression that you were all older than me because you were able to make that happen
00:42<@planetmaker>I might well be older than you. But then I'm probably one of the oldest ones around in this channel ;-)
00:44<supermop>ok, well I should be going to bed, have a conference call with London early in the morning
00:44<supermop>talk to you later
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02:38<Elukka>trains trains trains
02:41<Elukka>really edging the limit of how much of the table i want to fill up with track here...
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03:01<@Terkhen>good morning
03:02<@planetmaker>moin Terkhen
03:18<appe>i was working a bit on the sounds yesterday
03:18<appe>i havent made anything yet, though i think i have decided how to acheive this
03:19<appe>i had two options. use modern tools (with samples) to create the sounds - or simply synthesize and sculpt white analogue noise down to the individual sounds.
03:20<appe>the guy in me that's not getting paid with a dayjob wants option #1, the artist in me wants option #2.
03:22<CIA-2>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23025 /trunk/src/graph_gui.cpp: -Codechange: Support resized company colour icon in company key window.
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03:27<norbert79>appe: I would prefer 1... Even if I work creating new sounds or effects or even something for a game for my own amusement, I use 1
03:28<norbert79>appe: For example I have spent some time for creating a sirene sound for an addon for Mafia 1 (Hungarian Mafia), because there was no included. So I have spent some time fuigring out what type of sirenes were used back then and got a sample recording too, which I have cut, looped, etc, and the end result was fantastic :)
03:29<norbert79>appe: I did the same for Modern Mafia mod too, also sirene, but had to cut from a 5 minutes long recording :)
03:29<@planetmaker>norbert79: then go ahead and create (also) sounds for OpenTTD
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03:30<norbert79>planetmaker: Was merely about telling how well #1 could work ;-) appe wanted to create new sounds, not me ;-)
03:31<norbert79>planetmaker: I am fine with current ones... :)
03:32<norbert79>planetmaker: Basically the problem I would have with creating new sounds for OpenTTD would be the fact, that I am way too used to the original ones...
03:32<norbert79>planetmaker: Wouldn't be able having new ideas
03:40<appe>norbert79: that sounds neat
03:40<appe>ill think about it
03:41<norbert79>appe: Synthetising sounds might also work, but it would still feel like an instant soup.
03:41<norbert79>appe: Nice, good, but still it feels different.
03:42<norbert79>appe: I am a rookie on understanding sound, transforming, playing with tricks, but even audacity provides so many cool features, that if I was able recreating certain things well, just think about it what a pro could do... :)
03:45<appe>well, i do have the gear to actually record new stuff.
03:46<norbert79>appe: Well, I think you got your answer... :) You just need to find the perfect candidates for the effects
03:47<appe>btw, here's a track i made a few years ago with the same gear i think ill use now
03:48<norbert79>appe: You already shared this one ;-)
03:49<norbert79>appe: But yeah, there you go, you are all set
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03:55<V453000>nature comes to openttd? :D
03:57<@planetmaker>appe: you're aware that sound files are wav files?
03:57<appe>yes, of course?
03:57<@planetmaker>ok :-)
03:58<norbert79>unless one creates a cat file :)
03:58<@planetmaker>what about that?
03:58<norbert79><planetmaker> appe: you're aware that sound files are wav files?
03:59<norbert79>easier compacting it into one file
03:59<norbert79>just saying
03:59<appe>planetmaker: i dont really follow.
03:59<@peter1138>what's the relevance of being wav files?
03:59<appe>planetmaker: why do you ask? :)
03:59<@planetmaker>appe: I just asked as you linked an mp3 :-)
03:59<norbert79>planetmaker: he did, but it was merely an example of his work :)
03:59<norbert79>planetmaker: unrelated to the game
03:59<appe>planetmaker: that's music, and not related to any ttd work.
03:59<@planetmaker>ok ok :-)
04:00<@planetmaker>I just want to make sure that no-one is disappointed to find out the effort was in vain
04:00<@planetmaker>you being aware of the formats thus is good :-)
04:00<norbert79>planetmaker: Like transforming an mp3 to wav would be impossible ;-)
04:01<@planetmaker>to midi for music is... difficult
04:01<@planetmaker>at least I lack the tools
04:01<@peter1138>weird. my sound doesn't work when i download and play it... on the wrong machine...
04:01<norbert79>Pity that the game never wanted to support streams, like s3m, IT, XM
04:01<@peter1138>they're not streams
04:02<@planetmaker>well... why streams?
04:02<norbert79>tracker files, whatever, comes from perspective how you look at them
04:02<@planetmaker>you want to maintain an openttd music radio?
04:02<@planetmaker>it would to some degree make sense to support other music file formats than midi
04:02<norbert79>I also made some music back then, lost them all, but still in lovew with the good old MOD, S3M, IT and XM formats :)
04:03<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, the libraries are there
04:03<norbert79>planetmaker: libmikmod
04:03<@planetmaker>there are many libraries for many formats
04:03<norbert79>sure, but mikmod supports all sort of such
04:03<@planetmaker>there are far less people who use them. and use them in a manner that it fits the game
04:04<norbert79>"Supported file formats include mod, stm, s3m, mtm, xm, and it"
04:04<@peter1138>no point in supporting those, you might as well just support ogg vorbis
04:04<norbert79>true, yet in size these are way smaller
04:04<@peter1138>and there's already patches for that
04:04<appe>making the sfx stuff seems really neat. but i can say i kind of pooped my pants when i started thinking about making an openttd tron soundtrack.
04:04<norbert79>pity it never got into main
04:05<@planetmaker>norbert79: I bet I have not seen a file for most of those formats
04:05<norbert79>planetmaker: The files are not to be blamed because of this ;-)
04:05<@planetmaker>norbert79: no. But it tells how common they are
04:05<norbert79>planetmaker: One game, which used an own format of MOD was Crusader - No Remorse for example
04:06<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, guess you never felt connected tom any scene movement then... It was/is well beloved there, and they provide the easiest tools for beginner composers
04:07<Korenn>norbert79: I've seen and used all of those file formats in the past
04:07<norbert79>MIDI is just PITA, becuase you rely on your soundcard or SF2 samples, which are hard to get/make, where Fasttracker (XM) provides the possibility using wav samples
04:07<norbert79>Korenn: At least one who is familiar with it :)
04:07<Korenn>yep, and it guarantees that it sounds the same on all systems
04:08<norbert79>while MIDI can make some weird things... SF2 might not contain right samples you need for example
04:08<Korenn>But peter1138 is right, might as well just support ogg vorbis and be done with it
04:08<norbert79>Korenn: Sure, but transforming the title music into OGG would make a rather huge file, while the same in IT for example would be almost as big as the current MIDI
04:09<norbert79>ok, a bit bigger, because of the samples, but way smaller, than the OGG
04:09<Korenn>IT was... Infinity Trigger, right?
04:09<norbert79>Impulse Tracker
04:09<Korenn>oh derp yes
04:09<Korenn>long time ago :P
04:10<norbert79>I can clearly remember the fight between Fasttracker users and Impulse Tracker fans :))
04:10<appe>trackers :(
04:10<Korenn>I only wrote the reader bits for in my programs, they were much the same there (import a lib)
04:10<@planetmaker>norbert79: adding support for any other music format would not mean to remove support for midi...
04:10<@planetmaker>thus nothing would need conversion
04:11<norbert79>planetmaker: Right, forgat
04:11<norbert79>so nothing against supportin g tracker formats then, right? ;-)
04:11<@Terkhen>yes, supporting only heavy formats such as ogg or mp3 is not an option for distribution, it would need to support ogg/mp3/whatever and still midi
04:11<@peter1138>argument against supporting anythign extra is "use your usual media player"
04:12<@Terkhen>that's what I was going to say, I haven't used the music in OpenTTD in ages :P
04:12<@planetmaker>Though one can argue that a better "out of the box" experience wrt sound might be nicer
04:12<@peter1138>it's only a bit pants on linux
04:12<@peter1138>and only because i never finished the sdlmixer patch
04:12<@Terkhen>I just have the mp3 version of the original soundtrack that someone did between the rest of my music :P
04:12<norbert79>peter1138: Pity... Even German Truck Simulator has MP3, OGG support, including support for Internet MP3 streams too. Not saying OpenTTD would need it, just saying, that some do support additional methods, than "regular music player"
04:13<@peter1138>like people wanting the gui to support skinning
04:13<@peter1138>why... it's game, not a desktop environment
04:13<norbert79>peter1138: Because it's more attractive having it inside the game, not needed to launch one more application...
04:14<norbert79>peter1138: I prefer it... And as I could see from GTS players, they all love it
04:14<norbert79>peter1138: got always asked, how I did enable it
04:14<@Terkhen>meh, that image reminded me that all of the games I'm expecting will be coming with loads of stupid DLC
04:15<norbert79>Terkhen: Aye, this new method of DLC is just abusing gameplay, and making players life a hell
04:15<norbert79>Terkhen: Mafia 2 is a good example for that
04:15<@Terkhen>for example, I'm completely ignoring Civilization IV
04:15<@Terkhen>sorry, V
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04:15<@Terkhen>they released a GOTY recently and even that is missing some DLC
04:16<norbert79>Terkhen: Civ 5?
04:16<norbert79>The best DLC collection well sold was Heroes 3 Complete. All patched up, having all addons...
04:16<Ammler><Eddi|zuHause> [03:50:51] Ammler: it's quite annoying that the error log in the ticket throws 404 after a new version was compiled <-- that means, the error is resolved
04:16<@Terkhen>mass effect 2 was completely loaded with DLC and mass effect 3 will likely be worse
04:16<@Terkhen>at least portal 2 DLC is free and updates automatically but in general... meh
04:17<norbert79>Terkhen: I am also for copy-paste game, start, enjoy, or Install and enjoy (withoutn activiation and such)
04:17<norbert79>Terkhen: I have started making my purchased games storing this way. All installed, pached up, CD-ROM/DVD check removed, registry keys stored where necessary
04:18<norbert79>Terkhen: Despite I own them in original... provides this purchase method
04:18<@Terkhen>I include them already installed, updated and configured in my hard disk image :P
04:19<norbert79>Terkhen: I store my favorites on a Pendrive, including OpenTTD :)
04:19<norbert79>where possible Linux/Windows binaries included
04:20<norbert79>DLC... It's all about making users buying the same thing over and over again
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04:20<@Terkhen>IMO it is breaking what should have been a single game into a lot of small, expensive pieces
04:21<norbert79>Terkhen: And some even though need further addons making it a bit more enjoyable... Nowadays you don't own a game, the game owns you.
04:21<dihedral>good morning
04:21<norbert79>morning dihedral
04:21<Eddi|zuHause2>Ammler: no, it didn't, the error log was stored under the next revision, but the ticket was not updated
04:21<@Terkhen>hi dihedral
04:21<dihedral>you are quick norbert79
04:21<@planetmaker>hi dihedral
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04:21<appe>heroes 3.
04:22<dihedral>too fast... too fast :-(
04:22<norbert79>dihedral: Sure
04:22<dihedral>na, just kidding ;-)
04:22<norbert79>dihedral: That's what she said! :D
04:22<dihedral>she said 'hi'?
04:22<dihedral>or 'just kidding' :-P
04:22<dihedral>don't answer!
04:22<@Terkhen>that's what she said
04:24<norbert79>Terkhen: But you see I wouldn't even mind DLC's, if it would be possible modding them easy, or at least I don't have to break through several methods doing so. SWAT 4 provides such nice features, Duke Nukem 3D was also nice on that, Hidden and Dangerous 2 and Mafia 1 didn't yet users were able creating whole bunch of tools for them...
04:25<norbert79>oh and Doom 3 was also easy to mod
04:25<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: take ... the ticket has a link to then there was an unrelated commit which moved the error log to
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04:28<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: but why remove them at all?
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04:41<Ammler>why keep it at all?
04:42<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: what if i want to browse through older tickets?
04:42<Ammler>hmm, the issue should link to ERROR only
04:42<Ammler>the issue is there
04:42<Ammler>just the ERROR bundle is gone
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: yes, i get some nonsense and a 404
04:43<Ammler>(if there is a new ERROR bundle or a succeeded build)
04:43<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: nothing which hints to what the original error was
04:44<Ammler>yep, I would add part of the error log to the ticket directly
04:45<Eddi|zuHause>and i still need email on commit
04:46<Ammler>I still wait for the patch :-P
04:47<Ammler>but I once started with at least testing the notify extension
04:47<Ammler>the issue is I need to change the repos which are now in "bare" mode on the server
04:48<Eddi|zuHause>how do commits end up on the activity page?
04:48<Ammler>so we can have a list in .devzone, who to mail
04:49<norbert79>Hehhe @
04:49<Ammler>there runs a hook on every push
04:49<Ammler>which does trigger redmine to fetch and compiler to possibilty build
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: linking to the png directly is useless
04:50<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: it cuts off half the joke, the mousover text
04:50<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Ok, it's today's one
04:50<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: so
04:51<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Noted!
04:51<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: use the permanent link noted below. i.e.
04:51<Ammler>Eddi|zuHause: isn't that the alternative text which explains the image for text browsers?
04:52<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Have in my Feed reader... But sure
04:52<Ammler>ah no, title
04:52<norbert79>Ammler: This time no hover-text is necessary... :)
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04:52<norbert79>Ammler: It speaks for itself :))
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04:53<Ammler>norbert79: well, I use suse, so I never had to edit that file :-)
04:54<norbert79>Ammler: Guess you didn't start with Suse 7.1 ;-)
04:55<@peter1138>xorg doesn't need editing on modern systems
04:55<@peter1138>unless you're using those binary nvidia drivers, heh
04:55<norbert79>peter1138: It did need some back in Gutsy of Ubuntu...
04:55<norbert79>peter1138: But recent Nvidia drivers doesn't nee that anymore neither, if you install it from repos
04:55<Eddi|zuHause>i use the binary ati drivers... and needed to edit this plenty of times
04:57<Ammler>norbert79: yes, around 7.1, but at that time not very much Desktop
04:57<norbert79>Ammler: Well, it sure was... XFree86 is still annoying, X.Org is way better nowadays. (Xfree86 is still used in many Server based Linux distributions, like Red Hat Enterprise)
04:58<Ammler>as I used deskops there was a gui called sax on suse
04:58<norbert79>That was an addon helper, yes, not part of regular XFree86 though
04:58<norbert79>it was Suse only
05:03<b_jonas>actually both of them are annoying, but X.Org possibly less so
05:05<@peter1138>suse was a pita
05:05<@peter1138><3 debian
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05:06<@Terkhen>do you know of any NewGRF that includes multiple cargos with town effect food or town effect water?
05:09<norbert79>ECS? FIRS?
05:09<norbert79>Not sure though
05:09<@Terkhen>neither am I
05:09*Terkhen hacks one
05:10<b_jonas>you think people can survive on substitutes instead of real water or food?
05:11<Korenn>Terkhen: I noticed that Frosch defined a callback for the cargo display in towns...
05:11<@Terkhen>in my hack they are going to survive by eating raw coal and melted steel
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>FIRS has several for food, iirc (milk, fruit, ...)
05:11<@Terkhen>Korenn: which one?
05:11<Eddi|zuHause>and several for goods (alcohol, building materials)
05:11<@Terkhen>Cargo requirement information callback <--- do you mean that one?
05:12<Eddi|zuHause>and it makes goods a water cargo
05:12<@Terkhen>right now my changes remove the display of delivered cargo completely, as its current implementation does not make sense
05:13<@Terkhen>right now it just uses the name and unit amount of the first cargo found with a given town effect
05:13<Korenn>well, a better default is always good ;)
05:13<@Terkhen>but if for example you have two cargos with TE_FOOD, one of them liquid and other in crates
05:13<@Terkhen>it could say 500 crates of canned food
05:13<@Terkhen>when in reality it is 250 and 250 of each
05:13<@Terkhen>also it counts the TE, which is not the same as cargo units
05:14<@Terkhen>you could define a cargo with a double TE
05:14<@Terkhen>and right now it would be displayed with twice the correct amount
05:14<b_jonas>the townspeople lie that they need more food than they can actually survive on? I think that's completely normal.
05:14<@Terkhen>of course removing them is just a temporal solution while I hack the rest of the code, losing features is never seen as a good thing :)
05:15<Korenn>Terkhen: right, so the newgrf callback probably makes the most sense
05:15<b_jonas>If they told you the actual minimum amount they need, you'd sure give them 20 percent less at the next budget cut.
05:15<@Terkhen>indeed... but I don't know the best way to show the default amounts :)
05:17<b_jonas>By the way, it would be nice if the buy new vehicles list told me the capacity of a car it would have after refitting, eg. “Refittable to: 10 tons of coal, 6 items of livestock”
05:17<norbert79>I think it already does that
05:17<norbert79>at least for planes
05:17<norbert79>by default
05:18<@Terkhen>it does it already, yes
05:20<b_jonas>it doesn't do that for me:
05:21<b_jonas>It says “Capacity: 20 bags of mail (refittable). Refittable to: Mail, Goods, Livestock.”
05:21<norbert79>b_jonas: Go inside the refit
05:21<norbert79>b_jonas: You will see it there
05:22<b_jonas>norbert79: oh sure, once I've bought the car and an engine for it, I can go in the refit window and see it there
05:22<b_jonas>but I'd like to see it when I'm selecting the cars
05:22<@Terkhen>it would be too long in some cases IMO
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05:23<b_jonas>given that here I have to choose between Covered Carriage Truck and Livestock Van, and there's no way to know which one carries 6 and which one carries 8 items of livestock.
05:23<norbert79>I understand. Well, is it this important? Normally a car is bought for a specific cargo, and refits are only necessary under special circumstances
05:23<b_jonas>norbert79: that depends on the grf
05:23<b_jonas>this is using UKRS2 where you have to use refit on cars
05:24<norbert79>b_jonas: Well, there you got the main core of the problem. It's depending on the GRF
05:24<Korenn>most advanced grfs use generic wagons and refits are the norm
05:24<b_jonas>(for ships it's worse)
05:24<@planetmaker>it simply make no sense to offer 2 dozen bulk wagons
05:24<Korenn>a situation I much prefer, personally. Less clutter in the buy window
05:24<norbert79>b_jonas: Hard to satisfy anyone needs, so I guess it's not listed there... besides, if a wagon could be refitted to 10 different products it would make the window look ugly
05:25<b_jonas>well, I'd like separate wagons so that they have separate looks
05:25<Korenn>a number added to the cargo type wouldn't make that much of a difference
05:25<Korenn>large refit lists already look ugly as it is
05:25<b_jonas>but you're right in that the refit list for a ship can be very long
05:25<norbert79>b_jonas: I on the other hand sometimes refit planes being able flying with cargo, but I am ok with current solution.
05:26<Korenn>b_jonas: sets like cc2 have separate looks for their refits, mostly.
05:26<b_jonas>yep, and in UKRS2 if I attach wagons the look of the engine changes
05:26<b_jonas>which is quite the opposite from other sets
05:27<b_jonas>where the look of the cars change if you attach an engine
05:27<b_jonas>Korenn: sadly it might not be just a number
05:28<b_jonas>Korenn: it would have to change from "Livestock, " to "6 items of Livestock, " and from "Oil" to "50,000 tons of Oil, " or something like that
05:28<Korenn>yea, I guess
05:29<Korenn>'6 livestock' would suffice information wise, but people would complain :P
05:29<b_jonas>though Oil is usually not a problem because it's carried by separate liquid vehicles which have short refit lists
05:29<b_jonas>Korenn: 6 livestock might, but how about 5 oil?\
05:29<Korenn>works for me
05:29<Korenn>I already think in that frame anyway
05:29<norbert79>way too long to display in the buying window
05:29<b_jonas>hmm, it's not actually "50,000 tons of Oil". that would be a bit too much.
05:29<Korenn>but that's cause I'm a programmer :P
05:30<norbert79>let's not forget, that OpenTTD comes in 640x480 as default resolution
05:30-!-Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
05:31<norbert79>so whatever you would like to include, it must fit :)
05:31<Korenn>If there was a setting that allowed turning off the unit of measurement for cargo, I'd have it off all the time
05:31<b_jonas>maybe it should say "6 cows"? "livestock" or "cattle" needs a qualifier in English
05:31<norbert79>b_jonas: Still how do you measure weight or liquid without saying Litre or Kg/Tons?
05:32<b_jonas>and "10 shirts" because trousers doesn't seem to have a synonym that goes without "pair"
05:32<norbert79>doesn't make too much sense
05:32<b_jonas>norbert79: yes, but like I said, liquid carrier vehicles usually have short refit lists
05:32<b_jonas>norbert79: so it would be just "5 barrels of oil, 5 barrels of water"
05:32<norbert79>b_jonas: What about grains? Even Liquid carrier could be refit to it...
05:32<Korenn>b_jonas: until someone writes an industry grf with two dozen liquid cargoes :)
05:33<b_jonas>Korenn: that would make the refit list long even if it's just listing the type of cargos
05:33<norbert79>b_jonas: Or milk...
05:33<b_jonas>norbert79: liquid carriers can refit to grain? hmm
05:33<norbert79>b_jonas: That's why not a good idea making it even larger
05:33<norbert79>b_jonas: Think on trucks, while they have those barrell like of load
05:33<b_jonas>that could be a problem, yes
05:33<norbert79>b_jonas: Sometimes grains are being transported with it
05:34<@Terkhen>5 liquid cargos for trucks in FIRS, another 5 in ECS
05:34<b_jonas>how about using "5 t grains" instead of "5 tons of grain"?
05:35<b_jonas>um, I mean "5 t grain"
05:35<norbert79>looks ugly a bit
05:35<norbert79>but still it only saves a few characters
05:35<norbert79>6 to be precise
05:35<@Terkhen>you can change units for cargos via NewGRFs already
05:35<@Terkhen>it can even be 5 grain if you want to
05:35<@Terkhen>or 5
05:36<norbert79>5 grain... Like the three 3 beans
05:36<norbert79>three beans I mean
05:36<norbert79>wow, 5 pieces of grain making a vehicle full
05:36<Elukka>i don't really get why liquids aren't just measured in tonnes like everything ense
05:36<norbert79>Elukka: Becuase misleading
05:36<norbert79>Elukka: 5 tons of milk is not as much as 5 tons of water
05:36<b_jonas>as another solution,
05:36<Elukka>it very roughly is
05:36<norbert79>milk weighs more
05:37<norbert79>Oil and Petrol is lighter, than water
05:37<b_jonas>what if when you choose "Livestock" from the filter list in the new vehicles window, it shows "Capacity: 6 tons of Livestock" instead of the original capacity, and also buys the carriage refitted?
05:37<Elukka>coal is lighter than iron ore
05:37<Elukka>it's still measured the same in game
05:37<b_jonas>(The original capacity being 20 bags of mail)
05:37<norbert79>Elukka: You are mixing up phsical forms. Ever seen liquid coal?
05:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's called oil
05:38<Elukka>liquids have mass just the same as solids
05:38<norbert79>Elukka: You still seems not getting it...
05:38<Elukka>yeah, i'm not sure what you're trying to say
05:38<norbert79>Elukka: Milk is less in litres when measured in wight, than water
05:39<norbert79>noone counts liquids in weight
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: what's lighter, one tonne of feathers or one tonne of steel?
05:39<Elukka>sure they do
05:39<norbert79>Like you would buy 1kg of Milk or 1 litre of milk?
05:39<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: both are still rigid
05:39<Elukka>and solids vary in density just the same as liquids
05:39<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: lots of places measure weights of liquids
05:39<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Ok, go and cook using weights... Don't be suprised looked at stupid.
05:39<Elukka>aircraft (fuel), indeed real life tanker cars...
05:39<b_jonas>in fact, it should say "Capacity: 6 items of livestock (refitted)" instead of "Capacity: 20 bags of mail (refittable)" when you are using livestock as the filter
05:39<Elukka>both use weight for liquids
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: if you have a tank truck for oil you measure its weight empty, and then its weight full
05:40<norbert79>Elukka: Main measurmenet is gallons
05:40<norbert79>Elukka: Weight has only a n importance when calulcating thew cargo included
05:40<Elukka>the critical measurement on a railcar is mass
05:40<norbert79>Elukka: because it affects how a plane flies
05:40<Elukka>if a tanker is built to take 50 tonnes you can't load it for more than 50 tonnes
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: because it's way easier to measure mass than volume
05:40<Korenn>b_jonas: it would be even better if the refittable cargo in the list is clickable, and it would then show the information for that refit
05:40<norbert79>Elukka: But it's important how much gallons a plane has
05:41<Elukka>you can load it for less if you're loading it with something less dense
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: no, it's not
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: the volume is completely unimportant for the plane
05:41<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: This is what you think. Ok, go and fill your car with fuel based on kg's...
05:41<b_jonas>Korenn: perhaps, but that might be more difficult to implement, and you'd probably know what cargo you want to transport if you want to choose a car anyway
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: the mass is important for getting you anywhere. the volume changes with temperature
05:41<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: that's actually what they do, they just show the litres for convenience
05:42<Korenn>b_jonas: yeah, but the drop down selection is unwieldy if you need to switch a lot
05:42<b_jonas>Korenn: I mean, if you already know the cars well then you don't read the info so it doesn't matter it doesn't tell the refitted capacity,
05:42<b_jonas>but if you don't know them, then you want to filter.
05:42<Elukka>norbert, you're only listing special cases where liquids aren't measured in mass
05:42<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: if the tank station says you put in 50 litres, you've actually put in like 55 litres
05:42<Korenn>I do think it could use some thought - it's currently way too much of a hassle if you want to add a bunch of wagons where half are refitted to a different cargo
05:42<Elukka>for both aircraft and rail vehicles mass is more important than volume
05:42<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Still wrong. If I would fill my car in litres in summer, it would be the same ammount of litre of fuel in winter too...
05:42<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Way wrong
05:42<b_jonas>By the way, shouldn't the filters also include things like engine, break van, engine that goes on non-electric rails?
05:43<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: That's defined in standards.
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: the tank stations list litres calculated for 15°C
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: but that has nothing to do with the litres you actually put in
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>at current temperatures
05:43<@planetmaker>can I buy tanks at the tank station?
05:43<b_jonas>Korenn: it's usually not an issue because you cars aren't refittable to too many things
05:43<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Well, I know different... I guess your local stations must been cheating then :)
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>and i have to go...
05:43<b_jonas>Korenn: so you can just add the covered wagons and the open wagons, then refit all to livestock then refit all to grain
05:43<@planetmaker>or just comparitively harmless fuel? ;-)
05:44<Korenn>planetmaker: it only accepts tanks
05:44<b_jonas>Korenn: and get the covered cars carrying livestock and the open ones carrying grain.
05:44<Elukka>norbert79: why do think liquids can't or aren't ever measured in kg or tonnes?
05:44<Korenn>b_jonas: that only works in that specific case
05:44<b_jonas>Korenn: it also works with mail and passengers.
05:44<@planetmaker>Elukka: they are...
05:44<norbert79>Elukka: I am not sayixng they are not, but it also depends for what calculations they are using it. For example fighter planes never fill based on Kg's/tons but gallons/litres
05:44<Korenn>b_jonas: but if you're playing FIRS and want to ship both stone and sand, it's a hassle
05:45<b_jonas>Korenn: hmm
05:45<b_jonas>I see
05:45<b_jonas>I haven't played with FIRS
05:45<norbert79>Elukka: Even passenger planes are calculating with gallons
05:45<Korenn>same with ECS
05:45<norbert79>Elukka: But this still does not solve the current problem. Kg is one character longer, than Litre (l) :)
05:45<Korenn>they all go in hoppers, so you have to split up the wagons, refit, then swap to the other group, refit again, and add them together
05:45<@planetmaker>norbert79: or (metric) tons
05:46<Elukka>i've seen aircraft fuel referred to in tons
05:46<@planetmaker>or litres
05:46<Elukka>rocket fuel is almost always measured in tonnes too
05:46<Korenn>norbert79: ,000 l is longer than t. ;
05:46<norbert79>Elukka: Because it affects if a rocket can leave orbit or not... And since there is no control how fast the fuel burns no need to think in other, than kilograms
05:46<Elukka>railway tanker car payloads are measured in both tonnes and volume, but the critical measurement is the mass
05:47<norbert79>Elukka: So basically we are saying the same. It depends on the calculation the measurement is used for
05:47<Elukka>liquids rockets are throttleable, there is control on how fast the fuel burns
05:47<Korenn>liquid rail cargo is always expressed in weight, so that they can calculate required pull
05:47<norbert79>Elukka: but the temperature stays the same
05:48<Elukka>what's that got to do with anything
05:48<Elukka>korenn, good point
05:48<norbert79>Lunch time, later
05:48<Elukka>i think it would also be less confusing for new players if oil fields produced 100 tonnes of oil rather than 100 000 l
05:48<b_jonas>Is it possible for a car to be refitted to two different variants both carrying Goods with the same attributes but different graphics?
05:48<b_jonas>I think some GRFs use different car models instead.
05:48<Korenn>if the refits are defined, yep
05:49<b_jonas>so in that case even the filter wouldn't help
05:49<Korenn>they could even have differing capacity
05:49<b_jonas>you'd have to split the train anyway if you wanted to transfer both cars and crates
05:49<b_jonas>yes, I've seen different capacity
05:49<@Terkhen>hmm... I wonder if it would be possible to do a string code like {STRING5} that consumes an arbitrary number of strings
05:49<b_jonas>FISH has one such ship
05:49<Korenn>Terkhen: heh, also ran into missing STRING6? :P
05:50<@Terkhen>no, I need a custom one
05:50<Korenn>b_jonas: but I like your suggestion of being able to pre-select a refit from the buy window a lot
05:50<Korenn>it would make life a lot easier
05:50<norbert79>Elukka: One thing: Volume and mass can be only used, where temperatures are not flexible. For liquids, in case for flexible temepratures, litre and gallons are used. That's the standard
05:50<@Terkhen>string_1, string_2, string_3, ..., string_n-1 or string_n <--- that's the output I want
05:50<norbert79>Now I am off eating
05:51<Elukka>not really
05:51<Korenn>norbert79: you've got that totally backwards
05:51<Elukka>liter and gallon are measurements of volume
05:51<Korenn>in case of differing temperatures they use weight, as that's constant
05:51*Terkhen tries to understand the string source code
05:51<Elukka>volume varies by temperature
05:51<Elukka>mass is a constant
05:51<@Yexo>Terkhen: if you need either STRING3 or STRING2 just use STRING3
05:52<@Yexo>just don't set the extra parameters via SetDParam and it'll just work
05:52<b_jonas>I, having no talent for cooking, sometimes measure milk by weight with a kitchen scale so that I execute the recipe to the word.
05:52<Korenn>Yexo: and when you need STRINGN ?
05:52<b_jonas>However, in that case the recipe gives a volume.
05:52<@Terkhen>Yexo: I need an enumeration of cargos
05:52<@Yexo>STRINGn is not possible
05:52<@Terkhen>I was hacking it
05:52<Korenn>I've always wondered why
05:52<norbert79>Elukka: Still, tankers are limited by size, not by the fact how much weight they can swallow. You can't fill a wagon with 5 tons of oil for example at 45 °C, but for example at 10°C, since it's thicker...
05:53<@Terkhen>but when I wanted to add "or" I noticed that "or" should be translated too
05:53<Elukka>they are limited by how much weight they can take, just like every other rail car
05:53<@Terkhen>if STRINGN is not possible I'll just add a string containing only "or"
05:53<norbert79>Elukka: Ok, was a bad example, but you get the idea
05:53<Korenn>variable length string arguments are a pretty common feature
05:53<Elukka>cars are rated for a certain payload, track is rated for a certain axle weight
05:53<b_jonas>Elukka: are the passenger and mail cars also limited to weight?
05:54<b_jonas>I thoguht at least the passenger cars are limited more to volume.
05:54<Elukka>well passenger cars are limited by how many seats there are
05:54<norbert79>Elukka: But your car's tank is not limited to weight, but litres
05:54<@Yexo>Korenn: it's not possible because strgen (which is run at compile-time) needs to know the number of arguments
05:54<Elukka>so effectively volume :P
05:54<b_jonas>what? no way!
05:54<@Terkhen>in theory, since you can only have 32 cargos, STRING32 would be enough for me... but I still need to add "or" between the two last strings
05:54<Korenn>norbert79: in that case, they will always fill it with X tons of oil, so that the total volume will always safely fit
05:54<norbert79>b_jonas: Don't think in Hungarian circumstances :D
05:54<@Terkhen>so I'll just hack it :P
05:54<Elukka>norbert79: a hopper car built for iron ore is limited by liters when loaded with coal
05:54<Elukka>does this mean coal should be measured in liters?
05:54<@Yexo>"{RAWSTRING} or {STRING}" ?
05:54<Korenn>there's a RAWSTRING?
05:55<@Terkhen>yes, I'm using RAW_STRING and strecat
05:55<norbert79>Elukka: Hopper car is a bad example since it's about how much the track can hold...
05:55<@Terkhen>that's how it's done in other parts of the code
05:55<Elukka>no, it's the exact same thing as your example
05:55<Elukka>all cars in real life have both mass and volume limits
05:55<Elukka>it doesn't matter whether it transports liquids or solids
05:56<Korenn><norbert79> Elukka: But your car's tank is not limited to weight, but litres <- this is blatantly untrue. It does have a maximum volume, but they're never filled to the brim BECAUSE temperature changes
05:56-!-DDR_ [~chatzilla@] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20110928224508]]
05:56<norbert79>Elukka: But think for example n a bottle. You won't fill it with 1dkg of water ta 1 litre big bottle at 90°C, but only with 9cl, since it varies in size, but you can do that at 4°C
05:56<b_jonas>norbert79: well, even in Austria, some ski lifts have only standing passengers, no seats, though even there my idea of their capacity is much higher than some other people's.
05:56<Elukka>yeah, volume varies
05:56<Korenn>norbert79: now you're arguing the case for eight
05:56<Elukka>mass doesn't
05:56<norbert79>Korenn: Ok, that might be true
05:57<norbert79>Korenn: No
05:57<b_jonas>so basically all cars have both volume and mass limits, but depending on the cargo one is usually much more restrictive than the other
05:57<norbert79>Korenn: I am merely pointing out, that if you buy 30 litres of Fuel for your tank, it varies on it's size, but it's always 30 litres, otherwise you get some nice decent fine
05:57<Elukka>no, you've got it the wrong way round
05:57<norbert79>I have seen a civil case on this
05:57<Elukka>mass does not vary
05:58<Elukka>volume (liters) does
05:58<norbert79>It does
05:58<Elukka>it really doesn't :D
05:58<norbert79>30 litre of fuel must be 30 litre even in winter or in summer
05:58<norbert79>even if it weighs more
05:58<Elukka>volume varies depending on temperature
05:58<Elukka>mass is always constant
05:59<@planetmaker>norbert79: 30l of fuel are 'standard litres'. Which is normed to a certain temperature
05:59<norbert79>planetmaker: No
05:59<norbert79>planetmaker: Not everywhere
05:59<b_jonas>So fuel is cheaper in the winter?
05:59<Elukka>this is honestly elementary school physics...
05:59<norbert79>No, because you still have 30 litres
05:59<norbert79>it's mass varies a bit in winter, but at a very certain small level
06:00<Elukka>mass of a substance does not vary depending on temperature
06:00<b_jonas>how much does the volume of fuel even vary in the temperature range that typically occurs in a gas station?
06:00<norbert79>30 litres of fuel in winter weighs a bit more, than in summer...
06:00<b_jonas>I mean, it's not like they're selling you boiling gas
06:00<Elukka>gas stations are probably a bad example if it's 'standard litres' and not real litres
06:00<norbert79>b_jonas: As far as I know that's controlled, but I don't know how well does that work under extreme low temperatures
06:00<Elukka>norbert no it doesn't
06:01<Elukka>that doesn't make any sense
06:01<b_jonas>A water tanker likely won't carry boiling water either.
06:01<Elukka>the volume, measured in liters, varies with temperature
06:01<Elukka>the mass, measured in kg, does not
06:02<norbert79>1dkg of water is not always 1 liter of water, it depends on the temperature, but 30l of fuel must be always 30 l of fuel
06:02<Elukka>i'm not sure how i can explain it any other way...
06:02<Elukka>30 liters of fuel at -20c is not the same as 30 liters of fuel at +20c
06:02<norbert79>I get it, but I am merely pointiojng out, that some measurements are not being valuclated in mass, because of the standards
06:02<norbert79>now you are micing it up
06:03<norbert79>30 litres is always 30 litres
06:03<Elukka>liters are a measurement of volume
06:03<Elukka>volume varies with temperature
06:03<@planetmaker>no :-)
06:03<norbert79>thank you
06:03<norbert79>that was the word I was looking for
06:03<Elukka>the volume taken up by a certain amount of substance varies with temperature, more accurately
06:03<Elukka>so yes, density
06:04<Elukka>but the mass is always a constant
06:04<@planetmaker>as is volume ;-)
06:04<norbert79>but 30 litre of water weighs less, than 30 litre of oil, if I don't consider temperature, and density changes with temperature
06:04<Elukka>planetmaker, semantics
06:04<@planetmaker>norbert79: sure? That really depends on the oil
06:04<norbert79>planetmaker: Ok, might been not the best example
06:04<Elukka>1 kg of water at 0 c takes up a different amount of volume than 1 kg of water at 20c
06:04<b_jonas>or so you think. the mass of passengers might vary by season.
06:04<@planetmaker>my oil in the soup floats
06:05<norbert79>planetmaker: I could have said heavy water too ;-)
06:05<Elukka>ergo the volume of a given mass of water varies with temperature
06:05<@planetmaker>yes. And Earth's rotation speed varies by season
06:05<@Terkhen>urgh, messy code
06:05<@planetmaker>norbert79: that doesn't matter
06:05<Elukka>but 1 kg of water is always 1 kg of water
06:05<@Terkhen>BTW, OpenTTD has no temperature, no pressure / gravity changes due to height and so on
06:06<@planetmaker>no?! :-(
06:06<@peter1138>REALISTIC GRAVITY
06:06<@planetmaker>though... temperature it has
06:06<@planetmaker>snowline :-)
06:06<TinoDidriksen>1 newton of water is always 1 also differs depending on gravity.
06:06<b_jonas>does it at least have weight changes depending on latitude?
06:06<@Terkhen>planetmaker: it's just a patch of white moss that moves around
06:06<@planetmaker>TinoDidriksen: kg is a _mass_ unit. Not a force unit
06:07<@planetmaker>thus it doesn't depend on gravity
06:07<@Terkhen>b_jonas: it does not have latitude either, the world is flat
06:07<Elukka>TinoDidriksen: kg is a unit of mass, not weight
06:07<Elukka>1 kg on earth is also 1 kg on the moon
06:07<Elukka>weight is what varies
06:08<norbert79>Elukka: Yet 1 kg might not have the same force :)
06:08<Elukka>yes but it is still a mass of 1 kg
06:08<norbert79>Elukka: Since the Moon has less gravity
06:08<b_jonas>hmm, maybe we should have first class passenger wagons: they have less capacity but passengers pay more for transport in them
06:08<Elukka>that's irrelevant
06:09<Elukka>weight is measured in newtons
06:09<norbert79>Elukka: Not really... Especially when you design tracks on the Moon ;-))
06:09<@Terkhen>b_jonas: create a new cargo called Tourists or First Class Passengers
06:09<Elukka>this is the force exerted by a graviational field
06:09<b_jonas>yep, it might be better as a new cargo
06:09<b_jonas>we'd have Tourists and Managers
06:10<Elukka>if your rover masses 500 kg on earth, it'll also mass 500 kg on the moon...
06:10<Elukka>it'll also mass 500 kg in freefall ('zero gravity'), for that matter
06:10<b_jonas>isn't the moon a completely different climate so you can't even compare cargo with it?
06:10<TinoDidriksen>Ok, talking about mass kg...yes, 1 kg mass is 1kg mass. 1 kg of weight is not; I see they call that kgf.
06:11<norbert79>Sure, but it has no more value... Mass in itself is nothing, when there is no gravitational force
06:11<Elukka>mass is everything
06:11<Elukka>even if there is no gravitational force there is mass
06:11<norbert79>sure, so?
06:11<@planetmaker>norbert79: that's wrong by so many accounts...
06:12<b_jonas>norbert79: tell me that again when I throw a heavy iron ball towards your head
06:12<@planetmaker>... I can't even start on summing it up
06:12<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, I could push happily 500kgs on the moon while on earth it would be unmovable
06:12<Elukka>if you want to move in space, you have to expend a certain amount of mass in the opposite direction
06:12<Elukka>if your spaceship masses more you need to expend more mass (fuel)
06:12<Elukka>this is how any kind of rocket works
06:12<norbert79>b_jonas: a bullet is also a few grams big, still deadly :)
06:12<@Terkhen>reread the first newton law
06:13<norbert79>A 500kg of rock would do no harm if placed onto something on the Moon, where on the Earth it might make it collapse.
06:13<Korenn><norbert79> planetmaker: Well, I could push happily 500kgs on the moon while on earth it would be unmovable <- again, untrue. You're glossing over the parameters that actually count - friction on the mass and yourself.
06:14<norbert79>because Moon has a smaller gravitational force
06:14<Korenn>given low friction, you can push 500 kg on earth
06:14<Elukka>that is true
06:14<Korenn>given high friction, you can't on the moon
06:14<Elukka>the mass is still 500 kg though
06:14<norbert79>but mass is useless without force...
06:14<@planetmaker>quite so
06:14<Elukka>no it isn't
06:14<Elukka>mass is the most criticial measurement for anything operating in weightlessness
06:14<@planetmaker>mass is absolutely NOT useless w/o friction
06:14<Elukka>spacecraft, namely
06:15<@planetmaker>it's one of the 7 fundamental units in universe...
06:15<Korenn>or nuclear fusion ;)
06:15<Elukka>celestial bodies are also measured in mass
06:15<norbert79>if nothing is having any force on an object in free space, would it matter if it weighs 5 grams or 500kg?
06:15<TinoDidriksen>It would exert a gravitational force, which would matter.
06:16<@planetmaker>they keyword is momentum conservation
06:16<@planetmaker>don't think in forces. They're boring
06:16<Korenn>mass = energy
06:16<Elukka>the earth masses roughly 6 x 10^24 kilograms
06:16<Elukka>it's in freefall
06:16<Elukka>its mass is still certainly relevant, though
06:16<@planetmaker>hm... I shouldn't say, they're boring. My thesis is mostly about one... damn
06:17<Elukka>norbert79: you would have a much easier time pushing the 5 gram object compared to the 500 kg one
06:18<@Terkhen>so your thesis is boring? :P
06:18<norbert79>Elukka: Sure, but I was merely comparing measuring weight on Earth and on the Moon, and it's value, since on moon you could fill an object with much more mass, than on earth, since the gravtianal force is much lower.
06:18<Korenn>theses are always boring - otherwise you get reviewer complaints that it's 'too popular' :P
06:18<Elukka>yes, weight does vary
06:19<norbert79>Elukka: That's why I said mass (I always get confused with these terms/expressions) is nothing in itself, when there is no force in place...
06:19<Elukka>i don't see how that makes sense
06:19<norbert79>if we void gravitation
06:20<Korenn>if we void energy, everything is meaningless
06:20<norbert79>it still makes fun :)
06:20<Noldo>does this conversation have a point?
06:21<norbert79>Noldo: No, that has been lost by now
06:21<Korenn>if you have to discount fundamental properties of physics to make your point, you don't have one ;P
06:21<norbert79>Noldo: but you missed a lot
06:21<Noldo>have you heard of this thing called backlog
06:21<norbert79>Korenn: Mathematicians do this often ;-)
06:22<Korenn>but they don't attempt to argue physical points
06:22<Noldo>don't go all meta on me now
06:22<norbert79>Korenn: Sure, but I love how I was teached how a mathematicans prove something, and the use of contants...
06:23<Korenn>Noldo: norbert79 made a nonsensical case for why cargo volume is constant, and the rest of the channel disagreed.
06:23<norbert79>Korenn: Mass
06:23<b_jonas>norbert79: do you know why train accidents are so deadly, and why in level crossings, trains always have the right of way over road vehicles?
06:23<norbert79>Korenn: and I was merely trying to point out, that many times volume is considered instead of mass
06:23<norbert79>Korenn: since density, but let's not start over
06:23<Korenn>[11:58:32] <norbert79> 30 litre of fuel must be 30 litre even in winter or in summer
06:23<Korenn>[11:58:44] <norbert79> even if it weighs more
06:23<Korenn>seems you've been going in circles then
06:23<Elukka>you were really making a case for using mass rather than volume, you just didn't notice ;)
06:24<norbert79>Korenn: Yes. 30 litres is 30 litres. It's mass is different
06:24<b_jonas>It turns out, reality is more complicated than we want, so weight, mass and volume all count with trains.
06:25<Elukka>still getting it the wrong way around :P
06:25<norbert79>Elukka: Let's make it simpler: Let's use what commercial companies also use. If it's mass for wagons for trains, so shall it be then
06:26<Korenn>it is
06:26<Korenn>they all do
06:26<norbert79>then that's what the game shall also follow
06:26<b_jonas>I still say that depends on the cargo
06:26<b_jonas>passengers are counted using volume instead of mass
06:27<norbert79>hmm, true
06:27<Noldo>so is this the old guestion about which is heavier, kilogram of iron or kilo of feathers?
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06:27<norbert79>Noldo: No... We are merely trying to figure out which woulld be the best to used... Besides, on which planet? :)
06:27<b_jonas>on trains and buses and cars at least -- in elevators it's their mass that matters
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06:28<b_jonas>smugglers swallowing drug capsules are also limited by volume
06:29<@Terkhen> <--- what do you think?
06:29<@Terkhen>of the display, of course the cargos displayed are just a hack
06:29<norbert79>b_jonas: Well, one solution could be that you go through each type of wagon/plane, etc, and you use what other also use. For buses, the ammount of people. Oil-wagon? Tons... Etc
06:29<Elukka>looks good to me
06:29<b_jonas>the luggages of passengers on buses is limited by volume, but on planes the check-in luggage is limited by mass and the hand luggage by volume
06:30<norbert79>b_jonas: Let's just void luggage
06:30<norbert79>Terkhen: Easy to translate too... Looks nice
06:30<@Terkhen>it only needs translation of the "or" string
06:30<b_jonas>in ottd terms, luggage is part of the passengers I think
06:31<@Terkhen>the problem of this display is... how to display delivered cargos?
06:31<norbert79>remove it
06:31<b_jonas>and if there are passengers carrying less luggage (managers) and passengers carrying more luggage (skiers) then they should be different cargo type.
06:31<Noldo>does the unit cargo is measured in really matter?
06:31<Elukka>i think the only thing that doesn't make sense, but more importantly is a bit confusing, is the measurement of liquids in liters
06:31<norbert79>if it has been delivered, no need to listing it as required
06:31<Elukka>in ottd i mean
06:32<b_jonas>Hey, let's transport everything and everyone in big fixed-size crates to simplify calculations!
06:32<norbert79>Noldo: Well, it would be nice using right measurements in the game following standards
06:32<norbert79>b_jonas: Ok, may I start with you? Need a lift to somewhere? :))
06:32<norbert79>b_jonas: and how would you solve density? :)
06:33<b_jonas>norbert79: come on, it can't be that much worse than the trams in the morning.
06:33<Noldo>yeah, but being standard does not imply making sence
06:33<Elukka>we measure the power of cars in the average daily power output of a working horse!
06:34<norbert79>Elukka: How you made that pointed out makes that look very silly
06:34<Elukka>often locomotives too
06:34<Noldo>KW is the standard there actually
06:34<norbert79>Noldo: Not everywhere
06:34<b_jonas>Elukka: nah, hit points have nothing to do with horses, except in etimology
06:34<Noldo>maybe not in non-standard countries
06:34<Elukka>hit points? :P
06:34<Korenn>Terkhen: aweseome!
06:34<Elukka>horse powers certainly have to do with horses
06:35<norbert79>Why? The tracks have been also defined by the size of the..backs of roman horses
06:35<norbert79>railway tracks
06:35<b_jonas>it says "hp", I think it means "hit points" or "health points", the amount of damage the vehicle can suffer before it gets destroyed
06:35<b_jonas>it's not "horse power"
06:35<Korenn><b_jonas> smugglers swallowing drug capsules are also limited by volume ... Time for a drugs transportation mod? :P
06:36<norbert79>So if we consider the fact of horses, without horses not even trains could exist :)
06:36<Elukka>it'll significantly increase your aircraft profit, at the risk of getting caught and suffering a penalty with the local authority ;p
06:37<b_jonas>Elukka: I don't think air traffic companies ever get from the profit.
06:37<Elukka>in ottd it'd be the company doing it!
06:37<norbert79>b_jonas: Well, what about airport security?
06:38<Korenn>Elukka: you could write an entire mod about smuggling drugs from plantations to big cities :P
06:39<norbert79>And add grease-money to the expenses
06:39<Korenn>and hiring enforcers
06:39<norbert79>since you need to pay for paying up airport security, customes
06:40<norbert79>and dealers
06:40<norbert79>since no station could be built for such
06:40<b_jonas>I think that's already counted in the maintainence cost of the airplanes and airports.
06:41<norbert79>b_jonas: Yet it would depend on the avaialbility of the different facilities being accessible, like schools, stadiums, bars...
06:41<norbert79>in each town/city
06:41<norbert79>the more places the more expenses
06:43<Korenn>norbert79: instead of stations in town you'd build safe-houses. and fund processing labs
06:43<norbert79>ok, this is getting a bit being too much :)
06:44<norbert79>starts reminding me on SWAT 4 TSS :)
06:44<Korenn>given how well GTA does, if you'd make a good mod you could even sell it for money ;)
06:44<norbert79>haven't played GTA since GTA 2..
06:45<norbert79>lost track of it
06:45<b_jonas>Korenn: a mod? doesn't GTA already have drug trafficking?
06:46<b_jonas>I thought drugs were the main point of the story
06:47<Korenn>b_jonas: sure, but in ottd it would be more of a SIMS game ;
06:48<b_jonas>you know, I think ottd doesn't go well with that kind of story
06:48<b_jonas>just think of Settlers of Catan: none of the official expansions have military nor much destroying the opponent's property
06:49<b_jonas>there are unofficial mods, but not much played
06:49<b_jonas>similarly, ottd is a peaceful game. adding violence or drugs just doesn't work with it.
06:50<norbert79>Well, I liked Amnesia - The dark descent, and the fact, that the player cannot fight back.. a mod doing just like that would just make it less interesting.
06:50<Korenn>b_jonas: it would work just fine. it would become a different setting and themed game, but it would work fine.
06:50<appe>that game f*cked up my mind.
06:51<Korenn>Tropico is more in that direction and is also a peaceful game, even though it has military presence
06:51<appe>openttd is a serious game. please don't fuck it up with unrealistic shit.
06:51<appe>thank you.
06:51<norbert79>appe: Well, I loved it, I also like Undying too, where both were as scary as the other
06:51<Korenn>appe: that's ridiculously narrowminded
06:51<appe>amnesia wasnt scary, it litteraly made my body switch poop side.
06:51<b_jonas>Korenn: maybe if you keep just the engine core and transform it completely like roller coaster tycoon
06:52<Korenn>it wouldn't need much changing to work - but yes, it wouldn't be ottd anymore :)
06:52<norbert79>appe: :] ... Oh well, I was also scared when I first was attacked by a grunt... But then I managed it
06:52<appe>Korenn: hows that. im narrowminded because i like the game as it is? :>
06:54<appe>i hope you didnt missunderstand me, im simply tired of games trying to build itself on 'cool' elements
06:54<Korenn>it's narrowminded to shoot down ideas that go in other directions because it's not what you know
06:54<b_jonas>appe: I see
06:54<norbert79>appe: Wolfenstein 3D had a killcam. That was cool :)
06:54<appe>like drugs, drive-by's, zombies, tits or the war in iraq.
06:54<Korenn>ALL games dev does that ;)
06:54<V453000>[12:51] <appe> openttd is a serious game. please don't fuck it up with unrealistic shit. <- the unrealistic shit is the only thing which fucks openttd up so far ;)
06:55<V453000>*I mean realistic
06:55<V453000>you get the point ..
06:55<b_jonas>that's true to many games
06:55<norbert79>appe: Still, Max Payne somewhow still made it look awesome...
06:55<b_jonas>trying to add realistic to it often makes it worse
06:55<__ln__>did you just say the f word?
06:56<appe>Korenn: ah, i didnt really shoot down on any idea, i tried to emphasize how i love the game as it is.
06:56<b_jonas>if it's too much realistic at least
06:56<appe>norbert79: horrible.
06:56<appe>V453000: true.
06:56<norbert79>appe: Why? The best game I have ever played, I loved each moment of the story...
06:56<norbert79>appe: it bases itself on returning elements, still...
06:57<norbert79>appe: Ok, it has no zombies, unless Jack Lupino could be called that
07:03<@Terkhen> <--- there must be some better way to show this
07:04<norbert79>hmm, small fonts would make it unreadable
07:04<norbert79>what about symbols?
07:04<appe>norbert79: that's of course a personal reference of mine. i cant get my head around shoot-stuff-in-awesome-graphics-games.
07:05<@Yexo>Terkhen: imo that grf makes little sense. "steel or water"?
07:05<@Yexo>"iron ore or livestock"?
07:05<@Yexo>I don't see coherence at all
07:05<appe>what grf is that?
07:05<@Terkhen>the grf makes no sense at all, it is a hacked example so I have multiple cargos with the same town effect
07:05<norbert79>Yexo: Either the town goes heavy industry or farming...
07:05<appe>never seen iron ore be supplied to a town before.
07:05<@Yexo>norbert79: so a town in desert will grow when you provide coal and steel?
07:05<@Yexo>or oil and livestock?
07:06<@Terkhen>just imagine that they are cargos that make sense... I'm just trying to find a better way to display cargos required for growth when you have many with the same town effect
07:06<norbert79>Yexo: Well, currently it doesn't differ too much from current solution in my opinion, so it is a bit more advanced anyhow
07:07<@Terkhen>what I want to know is: how to display that you already supplied the town with one of the required town effects?
07:12<norbert79>Terkhen: Why don't you just remove that resource?
07:12<norbert79>Terkhen: Why listing something, when delivered?
07:13<norbert79>Terkhen: (I mean from the list)
07:13<@Terkhen>because you don't need all of them, you need a single unit of one of those cargos
07:13<norbert79>Terkhen: Sure, then you would just remove the one, which is equally satisfy the town
07:13<@Terkhen>if for example you have two food-like cargos, delivering either is fine for town growth
07:13<norbert79>sure, then you would remove both food and water for example
07:14<norbert79>if need rises, then it will be shown again
07:14<@Terkhen>I would prefer a more clear feedback of what is happening
07:14<@Terkhen>removing the strings will be confusing
07:14<norbert79>Need changes, right?
07:14<norbert79>Eh, let me ask that different
07:15<norbert79>the need for different resources is flexible, right?
07:15<norbert79>sometimes wood is needed, but then later on water might be the issue
07:15<@Terkhen>you just need a single unit of either cargo in each list
07:15<norbert79>and then wood might come up again
07:15<@Terkhen>if the first list is "fast food or healthy food"
07:16<@Terkhen>delivering a simple unit of fast food is enough
07:16<norbert79>The marking it green and red where the resources is needed
07:16<norbert79>why not continous supply?
07:16<Korenn>color only is not good enough
07:16<norbert79>why Korenn ?
07:16<Korenn>for color blind people
07:16<norbert79>ok, checkmarks
07:16<@Terkhen>norbert79: fixing how town growth works is outside of the scope of this patch
07:16<@Terkhen>this is just displaying stuff, fixing town growth will come later
07:17<@Terkhen>and yes, colours are not an option
07:17<@Terkhen>right now, it just displays the number of units delivered if you did it, but that's not an option when you have multiple types of cargos
07:18<Korenn>colors are still nice. but shouldn't be the only way of displaying
07:18<norbert79>why not listing it under each other, and mark it with a checkmark when satisfied need
07:19<norbert79>the need
07:19<@planetmaker>we should replace all colours by dark green or dark red
07:19<@planetmaker>makes for a good UI and game experience
07:19<Korenn>Terkhen: you could go 'Steel delivered' when the demand is satisfied. It's not strictly necessary to show all the possible cargoes when the demand has been met
07:19<@Terkhen>Korenn: there is no way to tell which cargo you delivered :)
07:19<Korenn>Town Effect name?
07:20<@Terkhen>I could add it, it's going to be added later anyways
07:20<@Terkhen>planetmaker: the darker the colors, the more likely it becomes that I confuse them :P
07:20<norbert79>Terkhen: Oh, I guess Tron-GRF would be not your thing then :)
07:21<__ln__>norbert79: we do not speak of Tron
07:21<@Terkhen>giving town effects names is IMO a bad idea... if they don't have names NewGRF authors will be able to do whatever they want with them
07:21<@Terkhen>so it's better if we can avoid it
07:21<@Terkhen>I like the "list all delivered cargos" suggestion, and it also uses info that I would need anyways for what I'm planning
07:22<@Terkhen>yesterday, someone (I don't remember who, sorry) suggested to show all cargo stats in a separate window
07:22<@Terkhen>I think that would be a good idea
07:22<@Terkhen>it would show all cargos delivered and produced in the town
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07:30<Korenn>Terkhen: if they have names, those could also be changed by a grf
07:30<@Terkhen>yes, but if they don't have names, we don't need the additional work to provide tools to change them
07:31<Korenn>a separate window would be acceptable, as long as there's still a quick overview in the main window where you can see if all demands have been met or not
07:31<@Terkhen>that's what I want, a way to display demands simply in the main window
07:31<@Terkhen>a long string between () is not that good IMO
07:32<Korenn>At its simplest, a 'Town demands have been met' string would suffice, if the rest of the info is available elsewhere
07:32<@planetmaker>"citizens celebrate the 'day of the transport tycoon'"
07:34<@Terkhen> <--- hmm... what about just changing "required" with "delivered last month"
07:35<@planetmaker>my suggestion: Required cargos: name1 [x], name2 [ ], name3 [x], ...
07:35<@planetmaker>where [x] indicates delivered and [ ] not yet delivered. Names could additionally be colour-coded
07:36<@planetmaker>and [x] could be the actual checkbox
07:36<Korenn>Terkhen: or 'supplied'
07:36<@Terkhen>planetmaker: that will lead people to think that they need all cargos for growth
07:36<@Terkhen>but you only need one unit of either of them
07:37<Korenn>planetmaker: there are different cargo groups that are all required, but inside the group it's an OR relation
07:38<@planetmaker>Then make such line for each such group :-)
07:38<@planetmaker>I didn't see groups in the screenshot and soley went by that
07:38<@Terkhen>there are two groups in the screenshots
07:39<@Terkhen>the first line is "food" and the second one "water"
07:39<@planetmaker>then I looked too sloppily and thought one is the cargos which are to be delivered and the other which are already
07:39<@planetmaker>might thus be a bit confusing in that representation
07:39<@Terkhen>that's the problem, I don't feel that the visualization is clear enough
07:40<@planetmaker>One of: blah, bluh, blub
07:40<@planetmaker>One of: nix, dies, das (already supplied)
07:40<norbert79>or (supplied)
07:41<@planetmaker>already delivered
07:41<norbert79>I think 'already' makes it unnecessary long
07:41<@Terkhen>the "last month" bit is important too
07:41<@Terkhen>so you get the idea that you need to deliver every month
07:42<@planetmaker>Cargo needed monthly for town growth:
07:42<@planetmaker>problem solved
07:42<norbert79>Delivered so far this month: that, this, thus
07:42<@planetmaker>then the cargo lines don't need it again
07:42<norbert79>yeah, good plan
07:43<norbert79>doesn't differ too much from my original idea ;-)
07:43<@Terkhen>Delivered: cargo1, cargo2 or cargo3 <--- I'm not sure about that
07:43<@Terkhen>I like the monthly bit on the title, I'll change that
07:44<norbert79>basically it's the same, when I said you should remove the cargo which has been delivered already
07:45<@Terkhen>norbert79: you don't need all the cargos, delivering only one of them is fine
07:45<@planetmaker>nah. IMHO all cargo needs to remain written
07:45<@Terkhen>removing the one you delivered does not help the user, as he can't easily know which cargo he delivered or if he fulfills the requirements or not
07:45<@planetmaker>yes. And I might want to check it. Acceptance, requirements etc might change
07:46<norbert79>Terkhen: Sure, but since requirements for cargo changes each month, the list is being filled up again
07:46<@planetmaker>And I won't see that when the strings get removed
07:46<@Terkhen>so you need to wait for a month to know for sure?
07:46<@planetmaker>norbert79, and then have the info removed on the 2nd of the month again?
07:46<@planetmaker>that'd be VERY bad behaviour
07:46<norbert79>well, some timeframe would be nice... Each month the list would be filled wiuth requirements, when fulfilled, removed, and then a new check would come in the next month
07:47<@planetmaker>we're only talking about the display
07:47<norbert79>but it's just an idea. I would treat it like a list for buying groceries
07:47<@planetmaker>that e.g. the colour of the delivered cargos changes - great
07:47<norbert79>each month I make a new list, but some items reappeart
07:47<@Terkhen>again: you don't need all cargos
07:47<@Terkhen>we are trying to display if you fulfill town growth requirements or not
07:47<@Terkhen>and you fulfill them with just a single unit of each list
07:48<norbert79>exactly. I also only list things which I need to buy every month, and not add everyone
07:48<@planetmaker>I keep up my suggestion. Per batch of cargos display one line:
07:48<@planetmaker>One of: cargo1, cargo2, cargo3, ...
07:48<norbert79>everything... Damn I am bad with my English today
07:48<@planetmaker>where the actually delivered cargos are displayed in a different colour
07:48<@Terkhen>norbert79: how would you list "we need a single unit of either cargo1, cargo2, cargo3 or cargo4"?
07:48<@Terkhen>I'm not sure about the colours
07:49<@Terkhen>which colour could they use?
07:49<@planetmaker>red and green
07:49<norbert79>Town needs resources of: cargo 1, cargo 2, cargo 3... Now if you fulfilled cargo 3 for the given month, until the end of the month it would be removed, but if again needed, reappear in the requirement list...
07:49<@planetmaker>or normal white and green for delivered
07:49<@Terkhen>norbert79: if you fulfill cargo 3, you fulfilled all of them
07:49<norbert79>like a grocery list
07:49<@Terkhen>as you only need one of them
07:49<@Terkhen>because that's how the game works
07:50<@Terkhen>as I said, this patch does not try to change town growth yet
07:50<@Terkhen>just to display the vanilla way clearer
07:50<@planetmaker>norbert79, as you only can either eat a burger, a pizza or a döne
07:50<@planetmaker>thus demand is met with one type of food
07:50<norbert79>Call it Gyros, that's more known outside of Germany :)
07:50<norbert79>but I got you
07:50<@planetmaker>norbert79, Gyros != Döner
07:51<@planetmaker>kebab maybe
07:51<norbert79>planetmaker: I know, but many places around here don't
07:51<norbert79>anyway, I get it
07:52<norbert79>Town needs one type of the following resources to grow:
07:52<@Terkhen>I'm still not convinced, I think we are missing something
07:52<norbert79>well, planetmaker's example made it clear, but since resources are not from the same type
07:52<norbert79>we need to have them listed
07:53<norbert79>like Water != Coal
07:53<norbert79>no connection
07:53<norbert79>you cannot say: liquids
07:54<norbert79>grouping the resources would be nice, but not possible: "Location needs one type of resource to grow further:"
07:55<@planetmaker>Terkhen, I think the way you showed with more explicit wording will work
07:55<norbert79>Casear 3 showed detailed messages, yet there was always just one resource/need to get satisfied
07:56<@Terkhen>which wording? :)
07:56<@Terkhen>right now I have:
07:56<@Terkhen>{ORANGE}Required: {RAW_STRING}{BLACK} (only in winter)
07:56<@Terkhen>{ORANGE}Delivered: {RAW_STRING}{BLACK} (only in winter)
07:56<@Terkhen>(and the versions without the winter addition)
07:56<@Terkhen>oh, and
07:56<@Terkhen>{BLACK}Cargo needed monthly for town growth:
07:57<@planetmaker>That's where I like to suggest to not prefix it by "Required" or "Delivered" but always by a "One of: "
07:57<@planetmaker>and postfix the string with (delivered) and / or (only in winter)
07:57<@planetmaker>hm.. In winter one of:
07:58<norbert79>"One of:" might be misleading, making users think they would only need 1 tons/litres/whatever
07:58<@planetmaker>that makes clear that it is a continuous demand. And the info which is fulfilled comes after the primary information of "you need this"
07:58<@planetmaker>norbert79, which is true
07:58<@Terkhen>norbert79: you only need 1 ton / litre / whatever
07:58<norbert79>then it's solved :)
07:58<@Terkhen>yeah, the system is braindead as that :P
07:58<@planetmaker>even. If we change that, the string is easily changed to
07:59<norbert79>for now, yes, but it might be changed futher on.
07:59<@planetmaker>One of: butter (12t), coke (200l), peanuts (20t)
07:59<@Terkhen>nah, town growth will not change
07:59<@planetmaker>newgrf :-P
07:59<@planetmaker>but that might be a condition too far
07:59<@Terkhen>newgrfs should have the option to remove the default view and substitute it with their own
08:00<@Terkhen>then you can do whatever you want
08:00<norbert79>hmm, delivered, and "winter delivery"
08:00<@Terkhen>is the winter info really necessary if you are delivering anyways?
08:00<@planetmaker>I'd add it
08:00<@planetmaker>In winter one of: {RAW_STRING} (delivered)
08:01<@Terkhen>winter delivery does not say "you only need to deliver in winter"
08:01<norbert79>I like planetmaker's approach
08:01<@planetmaker>but it should ;-)
08:01<@planetmaker>delivery in summer has no influence
08:01<norbert79>In winter, one of:
08:03<@Terkhen>it's missing the correct colour tags of course
08:03<norbert79>need would be marked with yellow, and when satisfied with green
08:03<norbert79>red would look make your eyes hurt... or yellow and black
08:03<@planetmaker>what can I say :-) I hardly argue against my own suggestions ;-)
08:04<@Terkhen>I'd prefer to avoid colours
08:04<@planetmaker>colour can be added any time
08:04<@planetmaker>well, some colour makes sense
08:04<@Terkhen>they are not clear, and the window would need a tooltip then
08:04<@planetmaker>currently the season info is a different colour. But that's not needed
08:04<norbert79>yellow and black would be nice though, like when you turn on a lamp, and turn it off
08:04<@Terkhen>if the window needs a tooltip, you would need to change it for NewGRFs
08:04<@planetmaker>but I'd like the cargo to be of different colour
08:04<@planetmaker>should the colour code then go into that string here?
08:04<@Terkhen>cargos orange, txt black
08:05<@Terkhen>as it was already
08:05<@planetmaker>Terkhen, then the {ORANGE} is wrong
08:05<@Terkhen>yes, I said that the tags are wrong :)
08:05<@planetmaker>oh, sorry, missed that
08:05<norbert79>no, I mean text black, cargo needed yellow, when satisfied turning it to black
08:05<@planetmaker>that's a good colouring scheme, yes
08:06<@Terkhen>norbert79: then you need a text explaining that colour scheme, probably in a tooltip
08:06<@planetmaker>removing the colour highlight
08:06<@planetmaker>Terkhen, no... the text, as is, needs not be changed for that
08:06<@Terkhen>after that, once that OpenTTD allows to change the town growth scheme to "anything", you will need to change the tooltipt oo
08:06<@Terkhen>how will I know that cargo needed is yellow and satisfied is black?
08:07<@planetmaker>well, what's wrong with adding that to the tooltip
08:07<@planetmaker>and making the tooltip newgrf-exposed?
08:07<norbert79> - my proposal
08:07<@planetmaker>or part of it
08:07<@Terkhen>the rest of the "normal" text in the window is black
08:07<@Terkhen>in most windows actually
08:08<norbert79>Sure, that's why the title would be white
08:08<norbert79>but wanted to emphasize a bit
08:08<norbert79>so I am not misunderstood
08:08<@planetmaker>Terkhen, changing colour from yellow to black for delivered cargos also allows to see which of the cargos triggered the "delivered"
08:09<@Terkhen>it also needs storing that information in the town (currently you only store the town effect amount received)
08:09<@Terkhen>adding that information to savegames and adding the tooltip
08:10<@planetmaker>hm, I thought it is stored anyway which cargo has been deliverd?
08:10<@planetmaker>or only which towneffect fulfilled?
08:10<@Terkhen>town effect fulfilled
08:10<@planetmaker>I see.
08:10<@planetmaker>then I withdraw that suggestion until the cargos are available anyway
08:10<@Terkhen>that info will probably be needed for town growth NewGRFs, yes
08:11<@Terkhen>but adding it now just for clarity is IMO not a priority
08:11<@planetmaker>I'm sure it's an info which players *will* want. I'd want it
08:11<@planetmaker>yes, agreed
08:11<@planetmaker>I thought you had that info already
08:11<@planetmaker>then just change the cargo colour from yellow to black when the effect is fulfilled
08:12<@Terkhen>I want that too, but adding 32 int32 for each town just for that is not good :P
08:12<@planetmaker>i.e. remove the highlight
08:12<@Terkhen>IMO adding (delivered) is clearer
08:12<@planetmaker>Terkhen, both.
08:12<@planetmaker>I don't argue against the 'delivered'. I want that
08:12<@planetmaker>But colour is faster visible than reading text
08:13<@Terkhen> <--- all "information" in the window is orange, why should it change to black? the important part of the info will not be highlighted then
08:13<@planetmaker>I get the info w/o reading a single letter when colour changes
08:13<@planetmaker>The important part will still be highlighted: the missing cargo
08:14<@Terkhen>which missing cargo?
08:14<norbert79>planetmaker: I would still highlight the line of "Cargo needed for growth", since we want to tell the player: Hey, I need this
08:14<appe>i see what u did thar
08:14<norbert79>planetmaker: Making it white
08:14<@planetmaker>Terkhen, I want the yellow text only as long as the cargo is still required that month
08:14<@Terkhen>why should this information be "special"? all lists of information in OpenTTD follow the same black/orange pattern
08:14<@planetmaker>if it is not required anymore, then black
08:15<@planetmaker>yes. They still do. But highlight the important thing: the required part
08:15<@planetmaker>I'm not that much interested in what I have delivered
08:15<norbert79>or anyone else
08:15<@Terkhen>I'm not interested in the design year for vehicles either, but it also appears orange for consistency
08:15<norbert79>it matters what I have to/can deliver
08:15<@planetmaker>it also wouldn't break any pattern
08:16<@Terkhen>check any window with a list of fields :P
08:16<@Terkhen>they all follow the black/orange pattern (in some cases black/light blue)
08:17<norbert79>even town info?
08:17<norbert79>all data
08:17<norbert79>well, I would still prefer getting the cargos highlighted which I need to deliver
08:17<@planetmaker>Terkhen, I know that. But *all* those lists are just info on something which never changes
08:17<norbert79>and make it black when done
08:17<@planetmaker>this is a tri-state thing
08:18<@Terkhen>every other list displays information with text
08:18<@planetmaker>I don't think it's right to say it breaks consistency
08:18<@Terkhen>I don't see why we need to change it for this field
08:18<@planetmaker>Terkhen, for a better user experience, for a better UI
08:18<norbert79>Terkhen: Which can be overlooked... If you don't highlight needed cargo, why listing delivered cargo at all?
08:18<@Terkhen>maybe because changing colours of stuff just confuses me usually
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08:18<@planetmaker>a quick glance with everything highlighted will always give me the wrong impression
08:19<@planetmaker>and as too many colours are not good, the good solution here is: "highlight the important, still needed stuff"
08:19<@planetmaker>I'm sure you could ask an UI expert and he'd agree with me ;-)
08:19<@Terkhen>why is knowing that you delivered cargo not important?
08:19<@planetmaker>because I want the town to grow?
08:20<@planetmaker>and it's not like that info becomes inaccessible
08:20<@planetmaker>it's just not highlighted
08:20<@Terkhen>so, if you deliver one of the cargos, you make them harder to read on purpose
08:20<@planetmaker>is black harder to read?
08:20<norbert79>no, marking it yellow or white wouldn't make it to be read harder...
08:20<@Terkhen>it's not highlighted
08:20<norbert79>even though even white letters have basic shadow
08:20<@Terkhen>therefore it's more complicated to tell the information from the title
08:21<norbert79>it's perfect on the current coloured window
08:21<norbert79>Terkhen: Why don't you try it first?
08:21<norbert79>Terkhen: Why not give it a try?
08:21<@Terkhen>I've already tried it
08:21<norbert79>I only see the same window over and over again
08:21<@planetmaker>it's a big bonus on the UI :-)
08:21<norbert79>you didn't paste any screenshots based on our proposal
08:21<@Terkhen>because uploading screenshots is a PITA
08:22<norbert79>even though you don't like it, we might like it :)
08:22<@planetmaker>a small 'delivered' added somewhere is easily overlooked, the important information stuffed away in the last place (literally)
08:22<@Terkhen>a black line is overlooked, because every other line in the game has the information highlighted in a different colour
08:22<@planetmaker>which is ok. The black lines have been taken care of
08:23<@Terkhen>so it is not important to know that you delivered cargo to the town?
08:23<@planetmaker>it's less important than what I miss
08:23<norbert79>No, we are just asying it's important to see, what's important, and the rest can stay black
08:23<@planetmaker>as the missing thing blocks my progress
08:23<@Terkhen>so why is that information less important than Max Reliability or Introduction Date?
08:23<@Terkhen>I want to display them black too, I don't need them
08:23<@planetmaker>you now compare apples and pears
08:24<@Terkhen>well, consistency is about comparing apples and pears :P
08:24<@planetmaker>as I explained: they are properties which have no state which changes
08:24<@planetmaker>displaying the reliability as colour code might make sense for < 30% or so. In red
08:25<norbert79>Terkhen: Just try it for once please, and make a screenshot... Then compare the before and after... I am sure you will understand how well it will help people focusing on town needs, rather just on constructing
08:25<@Terkhen>norbert79: I'll take a screenshot just so you believe me
08:25<@Terkhen>I already tried it
08:25<norbert79>thank you...
08:25<@planetmaker>Terkhen, when playing the game we try to solve problems
08:25<norbert79>(Btw I use the built in fonttypes, no own ones)
08:25<@planetmaker>and the problem one can have with a town is
08:25<@Terkhen>planetmaker: the red example is wrong in this case
08:25<@planetmaker>- growth
08:25<@Terkhen>red gives you additional info
08:25<@planetmaker>- authority rating
08:26<@Terkhen>black only makes things harder to read
08:26<norbert79>planetmaker: Which is always a huge problem for me
08:26<@Terkhen>because it is the same colour used for titles
08:26<@Terkhen>making something harder to read is not a good help
08:26<@planetmaker>Terkhen, then choose a 3rd colour
08:26<@planetmaker>But distinguish it
08:26<@Terkhen>that's what I said when you suggested black...
08:27<norbert79>Green for highlighting :)
08:27<@Terkhen>black + black is harder to read
08:27<norbert79>not for completed
08:27<@planetmaker>sorry, I only read "I don't want colour" :-)
08:27<norbert79>Terkhen: Still this is what I saw on your screenshots :))
08:27<@Terkhen>I want consistency
08:27<@planetmaker>then I've been arguing like Don Quichote
08:27<norbert79>Terkhen: And people gameplay :)
08:27<@planetmaker>Terkhen, and I want a quick and easy to use GUI
08:27<@planetmaker>and not read every letter to see what I want to know
08:28<@Terkhen>we can have both :P
08:28<@Terkhen>my point is:
08:28<@planetmaker>Yes, if we can have three colours, all the better
08:28<@Terkhen>black + black -> I can't tell the title from the info
08:28<@Terkhen>so if I don't know for sure what's there, I need to read
08:28<@planetmaker>Using only two colours was a concession to you actually ;-)
08:28<norbert79>this is how YOU do
08:28<norbert79>but people just ignore such
08:28<norbert79>and think on fast rounds
08:29<norbert79>or where the network is way spread
08:29<@planetmaker>Terkhen, so: yellow for "needs delivery". green for "has been delivered"
08:29<norbert79>people want information fast and quick
08:29<@Terkhen>norbert79: you misunderstood me
08:29<norbert79>I would still make "delivered black"
08:29<@Terkhen>I want my information quick
08:29<@planetmaker>then you need to use different colours for text, needed cargo and delivered cargo
08:29<@planetmaker>three different ones
08:29<norbert79>sure, but I also want only the information which helps me moving further...
08:30<@Terkhen> <--- that's why I don't want to read this blob of text because I can't tell the titles from the actual information
08:30<@planetmaker>colour is the quickest information way you can provide to a user
08:30<@Terkhen>exactly, that's why using black + black is a bad idea
08:30<@Terkhen>you remove information
08:30<norbert79>Terkhen: No, way away from what I wanted to see.. wait...
08:30<norbert79>Terkhen: need to GIMP it
08:31<@planetmaker>Terkhen, yes. We don't need to argue about black anymore. That's done
08:31<@Terkhen>he's arguing about black :P
08:31<@planetmaker>My preferred solution is 3 colours
08:31<@Terkhen>planetmaker: then we are back to the tooltip discussion
08:31<@planetmaker>Tooltip is fine
08:31<@Terkhen>I don't mind adding that tooltip, as long as we are not doing the per-cargo colours
08:31<@Terkhen>if all cargos are displayed in the same colours, then I don't mind it at all
08:32<@planetmaker>no. Just 3. "needed cargos", "delivered cargos" and the rest of the text
08:32<@planetmaker>all cargos of a single type
08:33<@planetmaker>thus the cargo colour of one line is consistently the same (as we can't distinguish cargos (yet))
08:34<@planetmaker>the colour for the cargo in different lines might of course differ
08:37<@Terkhen> <--- the colour I chose is horrible, but something like this
08:38<norbert79>Still consistent
08:38<norbert79>but main points are highlighted
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08:39<@Terkhen>norbert79: I know you meant black only for delivered, the previous screenshot was a result of my hack
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08:39<norbert79>Terkhen: Sure, I know, but wanted to share what I had in my mind
08:39<@Terkhen>it is not consistent: I need to read the line itself to see where the title (One of) ends and the information (the list of cargos) start
08:39<Elukka>unrelated gratuitous train
08:40<@Terkhen>with the usual way of displaying information, I can ignore the title (which I already know) and jump to the information
08:40<norbert79>Terkhen: Don't agree, main necessary cargos are listed, I instantly know what I need to deliver
08:40<norbert79>Terkhen: Since only "to be delivered" are highlighted
08:40<norbert79>Elukka: Wonderful looking
08:40<@Terkhen>why aren't cargos already delivered important?
08:41<norbert79>because the focus is on growth, not history
08:41<Elukka>got it in the mail yesterday
08:41<norbert79>but still good to know
08:41<@Terkhen>norbert79: do you agree that black
08:41<@Terkhen>+ black is more complicated to read?
08:42<@Terkhen>that's the whole point of this discussion, not the relative importance of different fields
08:42<@Terkhen>at least for me
08:42<norbert79> - this only makes my eye hurt, because I only want to know what to deliver...
08:43<norbert79>Make it grey then
08:43<norbert79>if black-black is a problem
08:43<@Terkhen>as I said when I pasted the screenshot, the colour chosen is horrible
08:43<@Terkhen>I just picked a random one
08:43<@Terkhen>green would be fine I guess
08:43<@Terkhen>err, grey, sorry
08:43<norbert79>no, green has more focus, than yellow
08:43<norbert79>ok :)
08:43<norbert79>grey is better
08:43<norbert79>lets try and see
08:43<@Terkhen>not today though, I had enough testing already
08:50<Eddi|nichZuHause> <@Terkhen> [...]the colour chosen is horrible <- said the colourblind guy? :)
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09:09<@Terkhen>Eddi|nichZuHause: that does not mean that I see on black and white...
09:10<norbert79>greyscale that is
09:10<norbert79>I guess
09:10<norbert79>it's like watching an old television with no colours, right?
09:11<norbert79>ok, this was a dumb question, since how he should know different... ok, void it :)
09:12<@planetmaker>there is _many_ shades of colour vision and different facettes of what commonly is called "colour blind"
09:12<@Terkhen>I can see all colours
09:12<@planetmaker>I never know which colours my boss sees and which not ;-) I'm constantly surprised one way or the other
09:13<@Terkhen>I just confuse red and green when they are in dark tones
09:13<norbert79>so it's more like mixing up colours
09:13<@planetmaker>or rather s/see/distinguish/
09:13<@Terkhen>read up if you are interested
09:13<norbert79>Terkhen: Cheers
09:13<@Terkhen>real color blindness is quite rare
09:13<norbert79>Terkhen: I am always a bit confused by the english term, in Hungarian we differentiate mixing colours and not seeing colours at all
09:13<V453000>well at least you can be sure you are a male :P
09:14<@planetmaker>I just used that word in lack of a better one to describe reduced colour perception
09:14<@Terkhen>we just use daltonism
09:14<@planetmaker>never heart that word, tbh :-)
09:14<norbert79>Terkhen: - Which one is closer to your state, if you could point it out for me
09:14<@Terkhen>planetmaker: it's because that's what dalton had
09:15<@Terkhen>norbert79: I can see the number in all four images
09:16<@Terkhen>so... no clue
09:16<norbert79>Terkhen: Weird, I cannot on the Protanope one, unless I focus enough :)
09:16<@Terkhen>besides, in theory I shouldn't be able to tell
09:16<@planetmaker>completely w/o context: <-- the beauty of awk :-)
09:16<norbert79>Terkhen: Sure, but still... You can blame one for asking :)
09:16<@Terkhen>norbert79: I'm used to focus a lot, I don't need to put effort on it
09:16<@planetmaker>took me probably to write as long as hand-converting. But was more fun ;-)
09:17<norbert79>planetmaker: Lol, well, nice solution though
09:17<@Terkhen>planetmaker: looks crazy
09:17<norbert79>planetmaker: but some sed and awk could have helped :)
09:17<@planetmaker>do you know the problem, norbert79 ? ;-)
09:17<norbert79>planetmaker: Just about understanding it :)
09:18<@planetmaker>cat ../../nfo/extra/extra-chars.pnfo | ~/scripts/glyph2nml > extra-chars.pnml
09:18<norbert79>Ah, now I get it, cheers
09:18<norbert79>basically listing using specific parameters
09:19<@planetmaker>basically converting some valid nfo to valid nml ;-)
09:19<@planetmaker>for a very specific case, though
09:20<norbert79>well, the file writing wasn't included, but only through your command line :P :) I was looking at the code :)
09:23<@planetmaker> <-- effect on the files
09:24<norbert79>Well done, looks nice
09:24<@planetmaker>I guess I'll emply awk more often... I learnt quite a bit and it makes multi-line replacement etc quite easy as it seems
09:35<Korenn>Terkhen: I used {YELLOW} in my patch
09:36<Korenn>subtle difference, but enough to jump out
09:36<@Terkhen>Korenn: ok, I'll try it too :)
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09:58<norbert79>Hi Belugas... You always enter, when we are already exhausted :)
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10:57*dihedral yawns
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13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: translators * r23026 /trunk/src/lang/ (esperanto.txt latvian.txt):
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: esperanto - 4 changes by Ailanto
13:45<CIA-2>OpenTTD: latvian - 53 changes by Parastais
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14:10*andythenorth wants to try the french set
14:10*andythenorth is in Swindon, but fortunately will soon be leaving
14:11<Elukka>the city of roundabouts everywhere
14:11<Elukka>it's like they just decided
14:11<Elukka>more roundabouts
14:12<Elukka>and at the center they put a roundabout that's five roundabouts combined and in every direction you may go there will be more rounadabouts
14:12<andythenorth>it's very nice if you like roundabouts
14:21<andythenorth>planetmaker: I am wondering about refactoring FIRS code
14:21<andythenorth>it might be a good time to do that soon
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14:21<@Terkhen>again? :P
14:22*planetmaker wonders what needs (again) refactoring
14:22<andythenorth>refactoring names of constants etc
14:22<andythenorth>refactoring == code tidy in this context
14:22<@planetmaker>I see little need
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14:22<andythenorth>wondered if you'd say that :)
14:23<@planetmaker>but I also don't know what exactly you mean
14:24<andythenorth>naming spritesets etc
14:24<andythenorth>consistency in which macros are used
14:24<andythenorth>that kind of thing
14:25<@planetmaker>it certainly can use a bit tidy up still in that respect.
14:25<andythenorth>time will tell if I actually get motivated do it
14:26<andythenorth>it's the right thing to do though
14:27<@Terkhen> <--- does it look good with yellow?
14:27<andythenorth>looks ok
14:28<@Yexo>it looks the wrong way around
14:28<@Yexo>the yellow stands out more than the orange
14:28<@Yexo>so it draws attention to the cargo which you don't need to provide
14:28<@Yexo>instead of drawing attention to the cargoes you're missing
14:28<andythenorth>what's the significance of each line?
14:28<andythenorth>anyway, this 'one of' thing is nonsense :P
14:28<@planetmaker>I agree with yexo
14:28<@Terkhen>Yexo: I agree, let's see with gray
14:29<@planetmaker>Use a light gray
14:29<@Terkhen>andythenorth: "you need to deliver a unit of either of the following cargos for town growth"
14:29<@Yexo>andythenorth: in a game without newgrfs the first line would only contain "food" and the second line only "water"
14:29<andythenorth>"it should be stockpiling, but without limits, but you shouldn't be able to deliver too much, and you should get rewarded for delivering lots, but you shouldn't be able to just deliver all the cargo once forever"
14:29<@Terkhen>I don't think that a different colour is necessary, but most people think that if you already delivered what you needed it should stand out :P
14:30<@Terkhen>it only fixes how cargos with different town effects are displayed
14:30<@Terkhen>so it does not fix town growth at all
14:30<@Yexo>Terkhen: what about swapping the yellow and orange?
14:30<@Yexo>yellow if not delivered, orange if delivered
14:30<@Terkhen>swapping would be fine by me
14:30<@Yexo>that was the only problem I had with the colors
14:30<@Terkhen>yellow seems to mean "something is wrong, fix it"
14:30<@Terkhen>and orange does not stand
14:31<@Terkhen>so it's better to use yellow for not delivered
14:31<andythenorth>'delivered' does not need to stand out.
14:31<andythenorth>it's not information
14:31<andythenorth>information is 'not delivered'
14:32<@Terkhen>so yellow for not delivered and orange for delivered
14:32<@Terkhen>exactly the contrary of what's in the screenshot
14:38<@Terkhen>that could work for me if I trusted my own eyes to choose colours that everyone else will like too
14:39<Rubidium>I'd use transparent blue ;)
14:39<andythenorth>I'd stick to what the game already uses
14:39<andythenorth>orange, white, yellow etc
14:40<andythenorth>shame there's no <blink> tag :P
14:40<andythenorth>we should patch text drawing to add blink
14:40<andythenorth>then we could have an advanced setting for 'blink rate' :P
14:40<andythenorth>oh what joy
14:43<@Yexo>andythenorth: you could try the water colors for text?
14:43<andythenorth>or the level crossing colour
14:45*andythenorth has had enough internets for today
14:45<andythenorth>bye :)
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14:56<Eddi|nichZuHause>what's wrong with the phrase "Also so eine abgrundtief dämliche Argumentation..."?
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14:57<@planetmaker>Eddi|nichZuHause: it's missing a ","
14:57<@planetmaker>I'm not sure about the capitalization of "abgrundtief". But probably correct
14:57<Eddi|nichZuHause>i just got a "friendly warning" that such expressions are not accepted in the forum...
14:58<@planetmaker>I'm sure I perfectly answered past your real question ;-)
14:59<Eddi|nichZuHause>by a mod that happens to coincide with the person i replied to
14:59<appe> <- how come i cant build the industry here?
14:59<@planetmaker>He. That's... an interesting mix of responsibility then
15:01<Eddi|nichZuHause>i replied that i don't quite understand what he means... neither did i personally insult anybody, nor did i use curse words
15:03<Eddi|nichZuHause>btw.: "tief", and also the combination "abgrundtief" are adjectives, and as such are written lower case
15:04<Eddi|nichZuHause>not sure where you want to put a comma
15:05<@planetmaker>Also, ...
15:08<Eddi|nichZuHause>that puts the emphasis on a different place than i intended
15:08<appe>what on earth
15:08<appe>this grf confuses me
15:09<Eddi|nichZuHause>too close to desert?
15:10<Eddi|nichZuHause>haven't played with ECS in years... and tropic neither
15:11<appe>can i create more green areas myself?
15:11<Eddi|nichZuHause>only in scenario editor
15:11<appe>i see
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15:25<Eddi|nichZuHause>i'm bored and want to go home...
15:25<CIA-2>OpenTTD: yexo * r23027 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp newgrf_text.h strings.cpp): -Fix: in some cases NewGRF string arguments were popped twice from the newgrf textstack
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15:34<Eddi|nichZuHause>"Guess who was hacked today" - :p
15:47<Eddi|nichZuHause>is there some generic version-agnostic way to get the location of excel.exe?
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15:51<frosch123>try "which ooffice"
15:51<Eddi|nichZuHause>hehe :)
15:51<Eddi|nichZuHause>but isn't it loffice nowadays?
15:52<frosch123>might be, it was soffice before
15:52<Eddi|nichZuHause>well, it'd probably suffice if i could tell python "open this .xls file with the standard associated program"
15:52<valhallasw>Eddi|nichZuHause: cmd /k excel?
15:52<@SmatZ>Eddi|nichZuHause: again? ...
15:53<blathijs>It's "libreoffice" on linux
15:53<Eddi|nichZuHause>SmatZ: last time i settled for hardcoding the full path
15:53<@SmatZ>and yes, you are right, it's lo* now :)
15:53<valhallasw>Eddi|nichZuHause: do you need to communicate with excel?
15:54<@SmatZ>[21:53:23] <SmatZ> Eddi|nichZuHause: again? ... <== I meant that sony hacker
15:54<Eddi|nichZuHause>valhallasw: no, just open the file
15:54<frosch123>i guess it is unlikely to become foffice :p
15:54<Eddi|nichZuHause>SmatZ: ah...
15:54<valhallasw>if not- try"start <filename>"), or popen("cmd /c start <filename>")
15:54<@SmatZ>Eddi|nichZuHause: start "file"
15:54<@SmatZ>frosch123: hehe :)
15:54<Eddi|nichZuHause>aha. let me try that
15:55<valhallasw>except it's not called .shell
15:55<valhallasw>but os.system
15:58<Eddi|nichZuHause>the cmd /c thing seems to work
16:03<Eddi|nichZuHause>so... why does the python installer do not put python into the path?
16:03<@planetmaker>oh, a SmatZ :-)
16:04<Rubidium>did you reboot after installing?
16:04<@Terkhen>if it put python into the path, closing the console and opening another should be enough
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16:13<Rubidium>Terkhen: I've seen it make a difference; some installers run some post install during the next boot
16:13<@Terkhen>hmm... that doesn't sound very helpful
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16:15<Eddi|nichZuHause>no, i did not reboot...
16:23<@SmatZ>hello planetmaker :-)
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16:35<Eddi|nichZuHause>what's the win7 way for listing known filetypes and their associated program?
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16:38<@Yexo>control panel -> programs -> default programs -> set associations
16:43<@Belugas>Don't give up
16:43<@Belugas>cause you have friends
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16:58<Eddi|nichZuHause>bäh... i
16:58<Eddi|nichZuHause>'m really bored
16:58<Eddi|nichZuHause>i'm out of here...
16:58<Eddi|nichZuHause>where's the next fuel station?
17:00<@Terkhen>Next to a road
17:02<z-MaTRiX>"Take your chance to use this open window..."
17:06<Eddi|nichZuHause>anyway... bye
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17:22<@Terkhen>good night
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19:31<Eddi|zuHause>hm... so nothing happened in the past 2:30h
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>Ammler: is there possibly some way i don't get 50 emails in a distance of 5 seconds, when someone mass-deletes files from a ticket?
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---Logclosed Thu Oct 13 00:00:36 2011