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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-13

---Logopened Thu Oct 13 00:00:36 2011
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01:51<@Terkhen>good morning
01:53<Lachie>hey guys, I'm encountering an error with a GRF file I'm coding that I've never seen before
01:54<@planetmaker>moin
01:54<Lachie>"read past end of pseudo-sprite"
01:54<@planetmaker>it's an nfo syntax error or an nml bug
01:55<@planetmaker>i.e. one sprite should for syntactical reasons be longer than it is
01:55<Lachie>I figured as much. Have the specifications changed? I had no issue running it the last time I worked on it (would have been over a year ago, mind you)
01:55<@planetmaker>No, they didn't change. But OpenTTD might complain more verbosely about incorrect NewGRFs
01:56<Lachie>hmm. I would have thought renum would pick up this sort of things
01:56<@planetmaker>one would think so, yes
01:57<Lachie>cheers anyway. Is there any way to get it to be more specific about the error? back in the day TTDP would give you a sprite number and a bit more info
01:57<@planetmaker>-d grf=X where X could go up from 1 ... 9. I'd start with 1
01:57<@planetmaker>openttd -d grf=1
01:57<Lachie>alright, I'll give it a try
01:58<@planetmaker>indeed I wonder why it doesn't give the sprite number right away.
01:59<@planetmaker>which renum do you use, Lachie? Make sure you use a 5.x
02:01<Lachie>oh wow. I'm wildly out of date. Will get to on to that promptly.
02:03<@planetmaker>get it from http://www.openttd.org/download-grfcodec
02:03<@planetmaker>(nforenum and grfcodec are now one package)
02:03<@planetmaker>but still two programmes
02:03<@planetmaker>thus usage didn't change
02:06<Lachie>hum
02:06<Lachie>new version hasn't changed anything. The debug window doesn't give any extra information
02:08<Lachie>though interestingly enough it has loaded a single engine from the grf.
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02:11<appe>morning
02:12<Lachie>okay, excellent, seems to have pointed me in the direction of what I need to know
02:17<@planetmaker>good :-)
02:18<@planetmaker>often it's a property used with an invalid length
02:18<@planetmaker>and moin appe
02:20<Lachie>yeah indeed, and it's been so long since I've written NFO that I've almost forgotten how to read it! But found the bugger.
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02:28*planetmaker nowadays recommends writing NewGRFs in NML ;-)
02:35<Lachie>planetmaker: given my repeated failings at writing any sort of coding language other than NFO, I somehow doubt it would work.
02:36<Lachie>would also prefer not to rewrite 2000 lines of NFO in NML xD
02:37<@planetmaker>can only make it simpler ;-)
02:38<Lachie>is it possible to convert between them yet? Last time I checked it couldn't be done
02:38*planetmaker has done so with 20000 lines :-P
02:38<@planetmaker>this time it can't be done automatically either.
02:39<Lachie>planetmaker: it's taken me 7 years to write these 2000 lines, mind you :P
02:40<@planetmaker>see. That's why ;-)
02:40<@Terkhen>rewriting is usually not an option, unless the conversion script works for you and you are willing to fix the resulting code
02:41<@planetmaker>sadly yes
02:43<@planetmaker>though I'd probably do that for any NewGRF where I want to do more than a few small bug fixes
02:43<@planetmaker>already adding the parameters to TTRS kinda was quite annoying
02:44<@planetmaker>*parameter gui
02:44<@Terkhen>but that's because we are willing to fix the resulting code :P
02:44<@Terkhen>it is a lot of work
02:44<@planetmaker>yes, it is
02:45<@planetmaker>though we managed to convert opengfx from nfo to nml in less than two weeks ;-)
02:46<@planetmaker>but that's mostly easy nfo
02:46<@planetmaker>or was
02:46<@Terkhen>:P
02:46<Lachie>still a huge file regardless, I can respect that
02:47<@planetmaker>I consider the last two weeks an investment into the future :-)
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03:43<DDR_>What's the difference between nfo and nml? Is there some page I can read about it?
03:44<@planetmaker>"what's the difference between assembler and C?" is the same type of question. Read http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial
03:44<dihedral>good morning
03:44<@planetmaker>hi dihedral
03:45*planetmaker must always resist the urge to write "Heidi" instead ;-)
03:46<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidi
03:49<dihedral>pffft
03:49<DDR_>Great book, that. ^_^
03:50<dihedral>why germans want to pronounce the nick like the german word 'die' i do not know
03:50<dihedral>in my ears it sounds more like a german pronounced 'dai'
03:50<@planetmaker>I know :-)
03:51<dihedral>so not fair ^^
03:51<@planetmaker>but that doesn't stop me 'hearing' "Heidi" I write "Hi dih..."
03:51<dihedral>it was terrible being in a german css clan once with that nick - i hated being on teamspeak :-D
03:51<dihedral>:-D
03:51<@planetmaker>see ;-)
03:52<dihedral>lol
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03:52<@planetmaker>I would pronounce it (in de pronounciation) as "daihidrael" but as "die"
03:53<norbert79>Morning all
03:53<norbert79>Teamspeak... Bah.. Mumble for the win :)
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03:55<DDR_>Dear lord..
04:00<norbert79><planetmaker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heidi -> this reminds me always on the Bullyparade and on the "Heidi" scenes... :)
04:01<norbert79>"Großvater, Großvater" "Ja, Heidi?" :)
04:01<@planetmaker>hehe
04:02<norbert79>I wonder how dihedral would look with hair locks :) (Hope it's the right word)
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04:12<DDR_>Maybe 'dreadlocks'? http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=dreadlock
04:12<Ammler>dihedral: change your nick to dehidral :-)
04:13<dihedral>urgs
04:13<dihedral>dieder :-P
04:13<dihedral>yuck
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04:15<norbert79>DDR_: Nah, Heidi would have looked silly as being a rasta... :D
04:16<dihedral>dread locks ;-)
04:16<dihedral>similar to dead lock
04:18<DDR_>Heh.
04:18<z-MaTRiX>[100907] celltech I will admit I'm running a 2.7ghz with only 512mb ram
04:18<z-MaTRiX>[100915] celltech I'm too lazy and cheap to upgrade
04:20<norbert79>Hmm, PS3 also has only 512 MB of RAM
04:20<norbert79>so considering this...
04:20<norbert79>:)
04:20<z-MaTRiX>;>
04:21<z-MaTRiX>i had 5112mb on w98 and xp, but thee vectorgraphic performance wasnt too cool
04:21<z-MaTRiX>*512
04:21<dihedral>:-D
04:21<norbert79>5112 MB and Windows 98... Niccce :)
04:21<z-MaTRiX>it was more usable with 768MB and kindof ok with 1GB
04:21<z-MaTRiX>its only my keyboard repeat rate ;/
04:22<z-MaTRiX>pushes key in after an instant
04:22<norbert79>I used or still use a GB big HDD in my 486. Plain Bios can't see in full, DOS neither, yet Linux can. Has 40MB of RAM, have to cut off 8, when starting Simcity 2000 :D
04:22<norbert79>8 GB
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04:22<norbert79>(486 can handle HDD up to 4 GB or 6, can't recall)
04:24<z-MaTRiX>;/
04:24<z-MaTRiX>i only remember the 32GB bios bug
04:24<norbert79>Well, 486's couldn't handle big HDD using DOS or Windows 98
04:24<norbert79>but thje funny thing: Linux can use all the sapce
04:24<norbert79>space
04:25<z-MaTRiX>well i had a pentium II cpu with 40GB hdd
04:25<z-MaTRiX>and a 486 is 32 bit also
04:25<z-MaTRiX>with FPU
04:25<norbert79>sure, mine was AMD 5x86-133 Mhz
04:25<norbert79>is
04:25<norbert79>cause I still have it
04:26<z-MaTRiX>so the 486 board has a 8GB bug in hdd controller?
04:26<norbert79>probably
04:26<norbert79>I see also remarks when booting Slackware kernel telling, that BIOS cannot see HDD in full, working around of it
04:26<z-MaTRiX>i believe the motherboard has the limit on memory too
04:26<norbert79>sure, 64 MB
04:26<z-MaTRiX>you cant put in 1GB edo modules ...
04:26<z-MaTRiX><;
04:27<norbert79>no, not really possible :))
04:27<norbert79>besides mine aren't EDO :)
04:27<norbert79>don't ask me what type, but sure not EDO
04:27<PeanutHorst>mine could theoretically take 160MB
04:27<norbert79>cause I tried them
04:27<PeanutHorst>unless they've made 256MB 72-pin modules by now
04:27<z-MaTRiX>SD ram ?
04:27<PeanutHorst>norbert79: probably FPM
04:27<z-MaTRiX>sd in 486 sounds new
04:27<norbert79>PeanutHorst: Probably..
04:28<norbert79>PeanutHorst: But I have 2 16MB big modules, and my old two 4 MB
04:28<norbert79>inside
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04:28<norbert79>And AWE 64... Heh, haters gonna hate :)
04:29<z-MaTRiX>soon i'll upgrade my system too
04:29<z-MaTRiX>phenom 2 x2 or x4, 4GB+ ddr3 @ 1333MHz
04:29<z-MaTRiX>i'll set /tmp on ramfs
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04:30<z-MaTRiX>and i wontneed any swap :)
04:30<@peter1138>...
04:30<norbert79>SWAP is always necessary, unfortunetally
04:31<norbert79>and in Linux without swap you cannot hibernate
04:31<z-MaTRiX>dont tellme i need swap with 8GB ram
04:31<norbert79>z-MaTRiX: Depends what you are running
04:31<z-MaTRiX>never used more than 2GB
04:31<norbert79>I would still make some measurements first
04:31<@peter1138>i need swap with 4GB RAM
04:32<z-MaTRiX>;/
04:32<norbert79>and /tmp on RAMFS is also kind of risky
04:32<@peter1138>not needed it with 6GB
04:32<@peter1138>though it's still there
04:32<norbert79>and in Linux you would need at LEAST the size of your RAM for setting as SWAP
04:32<@peter1138>why is it risky?
04:32<@peter1138>/tmp tmpfs is going to be default at some point
04:33<norbert79>peter1138: Some spcific files are stored in /tmp, in case for RAM error it could affect the functionality or working of important running applications
04:33<norbert79>sure, but not /tmp in ramfs
04:33<z-MaTRiX>well yes, tmpfs writes to swap if ram is getting full
04:33<z-MaTRiX>ramfs wont
04:33<norbert79>I would still store temporary files into temporary hard-disk space
04:33<@peter1138>hm
04:34<norbert79>yet of course I always think in server-like situations...
04:34<z-MaTRiX>norbert79<< i have seen guys putting /tmp on encrypted volume with random password on boot
04:34<norbert79>Mine is full encrypted using LVM :)
04:34<z-MaTRiX>also they used to delete everything on it at boot
04:34<norbert79>sure, every distro does that, unless application defines otherwise
04:34<norbert79>I use some which actively use /tmp
04:34<z-MaTRiX>though redhat plas lol with it
04:35<z-MaTRiX>plays
04:35<norbert79>lot
04:35<z-MaTRiX>lets system store rootkits in /tmp
04:35<norbert79>if a rootkit gets to your system, it won't get bothered by /tmp :)
04:35<norbert79>it will just screw yours up bad
04:36<@peter1138>hmm, run /tmp is on tmpfs for ages
04:36<norbert79>Talking about UNIX, Dennis M Ritchie passed away :(
04:36<@peter1138>it's /var/run etc that's moving to tmpfs too
04:37<z-MaTRiX>would be nice if they make default "noatime" everywhere
04:37<norbert79>peter1138: Yeah, I am very 'happy' about that... Damn stupid, that will break tons of different distros when distupgrading... Or if it doesn't, it will sure cause some headaches. I already made a ~run on my /
04:37<z-MaTRiX>itsa lol
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04:38<norbert79>Yet it sure serves more purpose than when having 'cdrom' in root... That wasn't funny either
04:38<norbert79>and still isn't
04:39<@peter1138>yeah, that's... why?
04:39<@peter1138>and initrd/vmlinuz, for that matter
04:39<@peter1138>nobody uses those any more
04:39<norbert79>I still prefer it
04:40<norbert79>Never liked monolitic kernels
04:40<z-MaTRiX>btw im considering to install a linux from scratch
04:40<norbert79>z-MaTRiX: You don't have any girlfriend... And if you start with it, you will never have
04:40<@peter1138>eh? what does monolithic kernels have to do with it?
04:40<z-MaTRiX>ahaha
04:40<norbert79>it will take THAT ammount of time from your life :)
04:41<z-MaTRiX>i write a bashscript for it
04:41<norbert79>peter1138: How would you access an encrypted drive without initrd?
04:41<norbert79>z-MaTRiX: Even worse then :D
04:41<@peter1138>norbert79, no reason for it to be in /
04:41<@peter1138>in /boot, yes...
04:41<norbert79>peter1138: Oh, that
04:42<@peter1138>and they are in /boot
04:42<norbert79>peter1138: Well, yes, but because of old UNIX compatibility
04:42<norbert79>peter1138: and if you have no boot because it's not needed, having them in / is much easier
04:42<norbert79>BSD's still use / for that
04:42<norbert79>at least OpenBSD 3.4 did
04:42<z-MaTRiX>clear;e=eval\ ;p=printf\ ;x="$e$p\$";u=USER;n=NAME;r=$(stty -g);stty raw -echo;read -sn1 -p \[$($x$u)@$(${x}HOST$n):~\]$\ ;a="The Matrix has you now $(grep $($x$u$n) /etc/passwd |awk -F: '{print $5}')...";while [ "$a" ];do $p\%c "$a";a=${a:1};sleep .$(($RANDOM*20));done;stty "$r";$p\\n
04:42<z-MaTRiX>:)
04:43<norbert79>it lists your /etc/passwd... so?
04:43<norbert79>like passwords would be still there :)
04:43<z-MaTRiX>not exactly
04:44<norbert79>well, it modifies a bit too, but decent systems do backups of /etc/passwd ;-)
04:44<z-MaTRiX>still cold
04:44<norbert79>not in a mood for analysis, just tell
04:44<norbert79>haven't eaten yet anything today
04:44<z-MaTRiX>yeah sounds familiar
04:45<z-MaTRiX>will go in a few mins too
04:45<z-MaTRiX>well you can run it to test, its a bashscript
04:45<norbert79>yeah, right... lol
04:45<norbert79>not in a mood for chroot-ing it
04:45<norbert79>so don't test me, just tell :)
04:46<norbert79>(btw it was obvious of BASH... KSH uses partly some points different)
04:46<z-MaTRiX>that'd not make it cool anymore
04:46<norbert79>alright then don't... I am off eating
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04:46<z-MaTRiX>btw
04:47<z-MaTRiX>clear;e=eval\ ;p=printf\ ;x="$e$p\$";u=USER;n=NAME;r=$(stty -g);stty raw -echo;read -sn1 -p \[$($x$u)@$(${x}HOST$n):~\]$\ ;while read -n1 a;do $p \\$($p '%03o' $(($($p'%d' "'"$($p'%c' "$a")"")-1)));sleep .$(($RANDOM*2));done< <($p\%q 'Uif!Nbusjy!ibt!zpv!'"$($p'%s' "$(grep $($x$u$n) /etc/passwd |awk -F: '{print $5}')" | while read -n1 y;do $p'%c' "$($p\\$($p'%03o' $(($($p'%d' "'$($p'%c' "$y")")+1))))";
04:47<z-MaTRiX>done;)"'///');stty "$r";$p\\n
04:47<z-MaTRiX>here it is more obscured
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04:53<Elukka>today i learned that there is an entire line of HO scale couples in the act of boinking
04:54<Elukka>an interesting detail for a layout, i suppose
04:55<Korenn>Elukka: time to model up a brothel? :P
04:55<Elukka>well there's enough different ones to make it work
04:58<PeanutHorst>...
04:59<PeanutHorst>yeah this is why I'm not into scale modelling.
04:59<Elukka>sexy, sexy scale modelling
04:59<PeanutHorst>... you're not helping your case.
05:00<Elukka>okay, how about simply awesome modelling?
05:00<Elukka>http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l327/pabrs/modelrailroad%202011/modelbaan-2011-06-25-50d-20225-int.jpg
05:00<Elukka>(not mine)
05:02<Korenn>I used to be impressed with model railroad builders, until I met warhammer players. those guys are nuts :P
05:03<Elukka>i've done some warhammer
05:03<Elukka>i contend there are more insane model railroaders
05:03<Korenn>I did too. until I found out that I couldn't be arsed with all the detail for single figures
05:04<Elukka>http://www.turkishmodeltrains.com/selcuk/selcuk9pi.jpg
05:04<Korenn>possibly, never met them
05:04<norbert79>Elukka: The Konditorei looks lovely
05:04<Elukka>i wish i had the skill
05:04<norbert79>Elukka: Wow to the second one too
05:04<norbert79>It takes patience
05:04<Elukka>HO figures are a lot smaller than warhammer figures too :P
05:04<norbert79>use to do maquettes
05:04<@peter1138>that last one almost doesn't look like a model
05:05<norbert79>peter1138: Agree
05:05<@peter1138>the figures are obvious
05:05<@peter1138>and the shadows are too crisp
05:05<norbert79>peter1138: But it is a model
05:05<@peter1138>norbert79, exactly...
05:05<norbert79>Thats the amazing part :)
05:05<@peter1138>tbh
05:05<Elukka>my extent of scratchbuilding so far... http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/brickwall.jpg kinda messy but i think it'll do for an old worn down building
05:06<@peter1138>i looked at the second one first
05:06<@peter1138>it wasn't until i looked at the first one that i realised :p
05:06<norbert79>Elukka: Now that's a challenge
05:07<Korenn>that's pretty cool. But personally I rather put my creativity into making digital stuff - that way it can be used more than just once :)
05:07<Elukka>i do digital too :P
05:07<norbert79>Korenn: If you do real stuff and then digital or the opposite, the one helps always the other
05:07<Korenn>nowadays you could model that wall in digital and have it 3d printed
05:07<norbert79>Korenn: Since it's the tool different, not the topic
05:08<Elukka>3D printing has issues
05:08<Elukka>i've yet to see any affordable 3D printing service that has good enough quality
05:08<Elukka>plus even then it's expensive
05:08<Korenn>norbert79: sure, but the results aren't usable in the same way. if I model a wall like that in Blender it will take about the same amount of time, but I can spawn the wall in my games thousands of times, and use it in lots of projects.
05:08<norbert79>I have seen one recording, which provides good 3d quality, but it sure is expensive
05:08<Elukka>yes but your wall doesn't actually exist in the physical world :P
05:09<Korenn>while as a physical thing you only have the one
05:09<Korenn>Elukka: unless you have it printed :)
05:09<norbert79>Korenn: Sure, but achiving the same effect, like a busted wall is being done the same way, or can be done
05:09<Korenn>though ofcourse
05:09<Korenn>if you're talking 3d printer, one should also include 3d scanner
05:09<Korenn>which would allow the reverse
05:09<Korenn>but is a bit broken still, in practice
05:09<Elukka>i'd love to just 3D model stuff and have it printed
05:10<Elukka>the technology isn't quite there yet, though
05:10<norbert79>not true
05:10<Elukka>http://www.pienoismallit.net/media/kuvat/07/15/29/071529.jpg
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05:10<Elukka>when a print looks like that...
05:10<Korenn>Elukka: we use http://www.shapeways.com/
05:10<norbert79>I have seen one company doing 3d printing on a business level
05:10<Elukka>yeah i know shapeways
05:10<Korenn>they do metal too
05:10<Elukka>of course if you're enough of a madman you can still make http://www.pienoismallit.net/media/kuvat/08/53/51/085351.jpg out of that
05:10<Korenn>and with a little bit of filing, it looks really awesome
05:10<Elukka>yeah they do and its humongously expensive
05:11<norbert79>or you take the time and make it on your own using real materials :)
05:11<norbert79>like good ol' times
05:11<norbert79>buying steel, forming it...
05:12<Elukka>i considered using shapeways but didn't figure any real use for it
05:12<Elukka>modeling wise
05:12<norbert79>Elukka: One example, if you are a Sci-Fi fan you can get easily different accessories through them
05:12<norbert79>Elukka: Like a communicator in Star Trek
05:12<Elukka>i also considered printing some of my 3D spaceships for fun :P
05:13<Elukka>but too expensive, not good enough looking
05:13<norbert79>why not printing it part by part?
05:13<norbert79>and then assemble it
05:13<norbert79>:)
05:13<Elukka>it's still not gonna be any cheaper or look any better
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05:13<norbert79>well, not sure on the look side
05:13<norbert79>but sure on the expensive part
05:15<Elukka>they charge by volume of material used
05:15<Elukka>doesn't matter how complex the model is
05:16<Elukka>kinda curious now how much wall sections and stuff like that would cost though
05:16<Elukka>and if there's some way to smooth out the grain
05:17<norbert79>3D printing is nice when building maquettes
05:17<norbert79>easier regaining lost parts
05:17<norbert79>where in the past you had to buy the whole box to get what was missing
05:18<norbert79>and creating the parts wasn't cheap either
05:18<norbert79>or take Lego
05:18<norbert79>well, maybe Lego is not a good example
05:18<norbert79>but you get the idea
05:20<Elukka>huh. shapeways has improved since last i looked
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07:08<norbert79>this is a quiet day
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>actually, this is one of the most active mornings das in the past year or so
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>-das
07:32<@planetmaker>the bricks on the model are all wrong: they'd usually be shifted 25 ... 50% against the ones in the next row
07:32<@planetmaker>and... this referred to a very old comment in this channel...
07:32<@planetmaker>note to self: scroll down
07:32<@peter1138>heh
07:34<Elukka>yeah, it's just doing that would add several hours to it
07:34<Elukka>assuming you mean the thing i did
07:34<@planetmaker>yes, I do
07:34<Elukka>it'd just take too long
07:35<@peter1138>but look better
07:35<@peter1138>unless you want it to look like tiles
07:35<Elukka>it already takes bloody hours
07:35<@planetmaker>it'd look a lot better
07:35<Elukka>now imagine carving every single less than 1 mm tall brick
07:35<Elukka>separately
07:35<Elukka>thousands of them
07:36<Elukka>i'm sure better methods exist, i just don't know of them
07:38<@planetmaker>Elukka: don't carve each. But carve horizontal lines and then add vertical ones
07:38<Elukka>every vertical line separately if the bricks are to be displaced
07:38<@planetmaker>?
07:39<@planetmaker>but yes, you'd carve a bit. but... hours?
07:39<Elukka>it sure would take a while
07:39<norbert79>Worth knowing how it would look
07:40<Elukka>it really would need another method of doing it
07:41<Elukka>i count that one wall would require approximately 1600 individual vertical lines
07:41<Elukka>vs. 40 or so for the 'tile-like' bricks
07:43<@planetmaker>well. carving dashed lines is not that bad as carving completely independent ones
07:43<Elukka>seems very difficult to carve them accurately enough as a dashed line
07:44<Elukka>remember, the tiles are like 2.5 mm wide, 1 mm high
07:44<@planetmaker>then create a wire-mesh which you imprint on it
07:45<Elukka>hmm
07:46<Elukka>i'm looking into premade products at the moment
07:47<Elukka>i really need a better wall material too
07:47<Elukka>what i've been using is a kind of a... hard cardboard? kind of thing
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07:52<Elukka>http://www.pienoismallit.net/media/kuvat/07/89/29/078929.jpg
07:53<Elukka>the best looking self made model brick building i've ever seen
07:53<@peter1138>impressive
07:54<@planetmaker>quite
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07:55<Elukka>it only takes a few decades' experience and a lot of esoteric tools and substances :P
07:55<norbert79>Elukka: is that your work?
07:55<Elukka>no :D
07:55<norbert79>Damn looks sexy
07:56<norbert79>best work so far I have ever seen
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08:08<Elukka>http://i.imgur.com/wmkyS.jpg
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08:33<@peter1138>ALL THE LADIES
08:33<norbert79>GET INTO THE KITCHEN!
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08:34<norbert79>lol? :)
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>how about using actual bricks? :p
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>saves you carving any lines :p
08:39<PeanutHorst>ALL THE SINGLE LADIES
08:40<norbert79>...damn you PeanutHorst, have no good idea because of "SINGLE"
08:41<norbert79>without it it was easier :)
08:41<@peter1138>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLJ5a6aJOb8
08:43<PeanutHorst>norbert79: it goes "IF YOU LIKED IT THEN YOU SHOULDA PUT A RING ON IT"
08:44<norbert79>PeanutHorst: Life is never that easy or simple, I know that ;-)
08:44<norbert79>PeanutHorst: It's not like buying an iPhone ;-)
08:45<PeanutHorst>trust is like an iPhone screen... once you break it ...
08:45<PeanutHorst>it's time to buy a new iPhone, on a two-year contract :>
08:45<norbert79>lol
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09:53<appe>android.
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10:13<norbert79>Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god... Boardwalk Empire Season 2 is out, and I almost missed the first three episodes...
10:15<@planetmaker>you have sooo my pity
10:15<norbert79>planetmaker: Thank you, let me give you a hug...
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10:30<dihedral>urgs
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11:50<@Terkhen>hmm... I suppose it is okay to hardcode CT_PASSENGERS for passenger subsidies, since houses are "hardcoded" to produce passengers too
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12:00<dihedral>unless of course you start creating different types of passengers
12:01<dihedral>of... different ... ethnical ... backgrounds....
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12:02<b_jonas>dihedral: not of different ethnical backgrounds, but of different financial backgrounds
12:02<dihedral>hehe
12:03<b_jonas>managers is a new cargo type that pays more than passengers but less of them fit to a vehicle
12:03<b_jonas>they travel on first class
12:03<b_jonas>so passengers are split to managers and tourists
12:05<@Terkhen>the only difference is that "passengers" subsidies are more frequent than any other
12:05<@Terkhen>hmm... OpenTTD does not scale the amount of subtitles to map size :O
12:05<@Terkhen>should it?
12:07<@Terkhen>err, s/subtitles/subsidies/
12:08<Elukka>hmm
12:08<@Terkhen>now it's quite obvious what I'm planning to do when I get tired of coding
12:08<Elukka>is there already an option for the amount of subsidies?
12:08<Elukka>frequency i mean
12:08<@Terkhen>nope
12:08<Elukka>i think that may be better than scaling it to map size
12:09<@Terkhen>why not both?
12:09<Elukka>well, sure
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12:10<b_jonas>why not scale it by the number of industries and towns instead?
12:10<Elukka>well i just wouldn't want subsidies to be popping up left and right everywhere just because i'm playing a big map
12:11<@Terkhen>b_jonas: because that would be more complicated
12:11<@Terkhen>for that, IMO a manual option to tweak the amount would be better
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12:12<b_jonas>how about just scaling with the expected number of industries and towns, computed from the map size multiplied by the difficult options setting the number of towns/industries?
12:13<@Terkhen>sorry, what?
12:13<@Terkhen>isn't the expected number what the difficulty says?
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12:14<b_jonas>Terkhen: I think the expected number is that product. With the same difficulty settings, you get more industries on a larger map.
12:14<@Terkhen>ah, I misunderstood you
12:14<@Terkhen>IMO you don't need to complicate things that much
12:16<@Terkhen>since subsidies have low base probability anyways, you will not notice small changes
12:18<b_jonas>but then Elukka has a point too: more subsidies might mean more messages (though I have them hidden in the message settings)
12:18<@Terkhen>that could be solved with a global parameter that affects the amount regardless of size
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13:48<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: did you make magic pink work or figure out a new way for wagon loads yet?
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14:04<@Terkhen>currently, subsidy code tries to establish a passenger subsidy by choosing two towns at random, and if that fail they choose a random cargo from a random industry
14:05<@Terkhen>I wonder what would be the best way to decide source and destination if we consider that towns can produce and accept anything, opposed to produce only passengers and accept only TE_FOOD and TE_GOODS cargos
14:05<@Terkhen>I'm thinking on letting the passenger part as it stands now (they should be more common anyways)
14:06<@Terkhen>after that, choose a random cargo and look for appropiate source/destination
14:06<@Terkhen>but I think that the random cargo idea is not a good one
14:06<@Terkhen>hmmm
14:09<Pinkbeast>Couldn't it start by picking a random unserviced industry or town?
14:10<@Terkhen>if you choose a random industry or town, you will end up with too much mail subsidies
14:11<@Terkhen>although... maybe that's not a bad thing
14:11<Pinkbeast>And defining an unserviced town is tricky especially in cargodist/YACD worlds.
14:12<Pinkbeast>However, I have one passenger here waiting to go to the pub, so I must leave it here.
14:12<@Terkhen>that part of the code is already taken care of
14:12<@Terkhen>see you
14:16<@Alberth>perhaps try to distribute the subsidies evenly over the map?
14:17<@Alberth>(by picking a 'good' towns, then deciding what cargo it has/needs?)
14:17<@Terkhen>hmm... it should do that, yes
14:17<@Terkhen>it would be nice
14:17<@Terkhen>but I still need a way to get a good random source
14:17<@Terkhen>the current code just chooses two random industries and if they are not close enough it tries again :P
14:18<@Terkhen>maybe I should just give a % chance of town/industry source, it's simple
14:18<@Terkhen>then it could pick up a source that is far enough from existing subsidy sources
14:19<b_jonas>why would you want to distribute them evenly on the map?
14:19<@Alberth>yeah, don't make it complicated sounds like a good idea
14:22<@Terkhen>b_jonas: sometimes I get three subsidies with the same source, that's not very useful
14:22<@Terkhen>hmm... or maybe it was same destination, I don't remember
14:22<b_jonas>same destination shouldn't be a problem
14:22<@Terkhen>no, but it is boring :P
14:22<b_jonas>same source same cargo type is not very useful, so maybe you want to check that, yes
14:23<b_jonas>make an interface for AI scripts to choose subsidies and leave it to the AI developers to come up with interesting or evil AIs. :-)
14:24<@Terkhen>that's a job for a future goal framework
14:24<@Terkhen>which I have no intention to code :P
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14:50<@Alberth>b_jonas: except players don't make subsidy offers to other players
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14:59<b_jonas>Alberth: sure, it would be more like a GRF thingy
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15:00*Alberth is pretty sure you don't want to code subsidy offers in NFO either :p
15:00<appe>http://rationalreality.50webs.com/godel_files/godel2.jpg
15:00<appe><3
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15:25<andythenorth>efening
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15:26<supermop>hello andy
15:28<@Alberth>hi andy
15:29<Elukka>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH8joSKRPAE
15:29<Elukka>china 2003
15:29<Elukka>pretty awesome
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17:18<DDR_>Hi; can anyone recommend a server with an interesting industrial chain (maybe ECS?) and some people on it?
17:21<@Terkhen>good night
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17:47<Monarch1st>hi all
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17:48<Monarch1st>i'm making my own scenario, but i want to delete one of the newgrf files that was inherited from the main program. how do i do that?
17:50<Chris_Booth>hi Monarch1st
17:50<Chris_Booth>you need to edit your openttd.cfg file
17:50<Chris_Booth>it though it not recomended to remove a GRF once it is loaded
17:50<Chris_Booth>as this can cause openttd to crash
17:51<Monarch1st>you mean i have to dump my scenario, and all the work that has gone into it, and start it over?
17:52<Chris_Booth>not realy I am just warning you
17:52<Chris_Booth>you need to change this setting in your openttd.cfg though
17:52<Chris_Booth>scenario_developer = true
17:52<Chris_Booth>yours will be set to false
17:53<Monarch1st>ahh, whew.
17:53<Chris_Booth>but if it is something like a town GRF or an industry GRF it will crash unless you remove all objects in that group
17:53<Chris_Booth>openttd.cfg will be in the share directory
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17:53<Chris_Booth>and you need to edit it with a simple text editor
17:53<Monarch1st>ha! bout 10 secs ahead of me
17:54<Chris_Booth>you will also need to close your game
17:54<Monarch1st>wait. it doesnt have a share directory
17:54<Chris_Booth>or you can type that setting into the games built in consol
17:54<Monarch1st>game already closed
17:54<Chris_Booth>Monarch1st: what OS are you using?
17:55<Monarch1st>win xp pro
17:55<Chris_Booth>then it will be in you my documents folder
17:55<Chris_Booth>my docs/openttd
17:55<Chris_Booth>and use notepad
17:57<Monarch1st>there we go ...
17:57<Chris_Booth>good good
17:57<Chris_Booth>now you will notice a new 'new grf' list
17:58<Monarch1st>woohoo!
17:59<Monarch1st>cool beans, deleted...now to see if it makes a difference
17:59<Monarch1st>thanks very much!
17:59<Chris_Booth>np
17:59<Chris_Booth>be careful though
17:59<Chris_Booth>and remeber to turn it off again
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18:35<Eddi|zuHause><Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: did you make magic pink work or figure out a new way for wagon loads yet? <-- magic pink works. now we need to devise some appropriate recolour maps for black/grey/yellow/red/...
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 14 00:00:38 2011