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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-14

---Logopened Fri Oct 14 00:00:38 2011
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01:49<@Terkhen>good morning
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02:46<Korenn>Terkhen: w00t, did I read the backlog right, you worked on the subsidies patch?
02:48<@Terkhen>it's kind of finished
02:49<@Terkhen>I only need to modify the subsidies themselves
02:49<@Terkhen>but all the prerrequisites are done
02:55<Korenn>yeah I read that
02:56<Korenn>you discounted picking high producing unserviced industries and generating a subsidy from that?
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02:58<@Terkhen>I have not discounted anything... but after a night's rest I'm wondering if I'm trying to do too much with a single patch; maybe it should just fix the choosing of all possible sources and destinations without the current artificial restrictions
02:58<@Terkhen>a different patch could take care of better choosing of subsidies
02:58<Korenn>true
02:58<Korenn>or it could even simply recreate the old behaviour first
02:58<@Terkhen>the new patch would take into account distance, production and anything else that is considered
02:59<@Terkhen>yes, that's what I meant... old behavior except that it does not use TE to make assumptions about destination
02:59<Korenn>ah :)
02:59<@Terkhen>as a result of that assumption, we don't have mail subsidies for example
02:59<@Terkhen>I never noticed until I checked the code, but there is a FS task about it
03:02<norbert79>Morning
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03:03<@Terkhen>good morning norbert79
03:03<norbert79>Morning Terkhen :)
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03:19<@planetmaker>moin
03:19<norbert79>moinú
03:19<norbert79>
03:21<Korenn>Terkhen: eventually, subsidies could be used to stimulate building industry chains: generate subsidies to ship secondary or tertiary cargo that isn't being created yet, with a much longer running / completion time
03:22<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker
03:22<@Terkhen>Korenn: makes sense, more reasons to keep it separate from what I'm doing now as it does not seem as simple as I thought first
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03:25<norbert79>Something different: Ubuntuception :) http://imageshack.us/f/839/ubunception.png
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03:28<@Terkhen>bbl
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04:58<b_jonas>Korenn: I don't seed why you'd need subsidies for that. The way goods pays a lot already stimulates building industry chains.
04:59<b_jonas>Also, an industry chain when you transmit from multiple primary industries to a single factory lets you have a single secondary industry that produces more, which alone lets you have more efficient train lines.
05:01<@Terkhen>that's one of the arguments against making subisides more complex: they are usually ignored by everyone
05:02<b_jonas>maybe if they were active for more than one year, that would help
05:03<b_jonas>also, perhaps they should specify only one of the source and the destination
05:03<b_jonas>but I'm not so sure about this latetr
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05:04<@Terkhen>sounds complicated :)
05:05<b_jonas>making them all last four years wouldn't be too complicated
05:06<norbert79>b_jonas: Aye... I also started ignoring susidaries, because the compensation given was useless. It would be nice gaining more support from local towns when winning a subsidary...
05:06<Ammler>Brianetta: openttdcoop.ppcis.org is dead :'-(
05:06<norbert79>For example
05:08<norbert79>b_jonas: Just think about it: You are being asked for a road to make. What you get: You have to build the road, you have to start the buses, you have to make everything, and for that you get a bonus of 3.5% for each transfer... Very "charming" especially for smaller towns
05:08<b_jonas>norbert79: yep
05:09<norbert79>and you are also limited on placing the stations, because one wrong move, and your rating will fall down into the dumps
05:09<b_jonas>yep, I'm more careful with stations these days
05:10<b_jonas>sometimes I build a 2x6 passenger station in a town before I start to terraform nearby, just so that I can restore my reputation later
05:10<norbert79>so the compensation should be rethought in my opinion
05:10<b_jonas>or build small passenger service buses or trains just to increase rep
05:11<b_jonas>but I like that, town reps do make the game more interesting
05:11<norbert79>in the end you will end up regaining the money within 5-10 years, where the bonus is being payed for a year
05:11<b_jonas>yep
05:11<norbert79>so no wonder everyone is ignoring subsidaries
05:12<b_jonas>in fact, for most of the buses the big win is not how much the bus gains now but how it makes the city grow so you can make large airports to it
05:12-!-Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
05:13<norbert79>b_jonas: Sure, but this only limits the usage of subsidaries
05:14<Eddi|zuHause>IMHO, subsidies should be tied into a scriptable goals framework
05:16<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Creating different types of subs this way?
05:16<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: Like giving specific bonuses
05:16<Eddi|zuHause>for example
05:16<norbert79>that would make sense
05:17<Eddi|zuHause>or some tutorial-like behaviour like "first, pick these two cities and introduce a passenger service"
05:17<@Terkhen>yes, I also think that changes of the level you are suggesting should go into a goal framework
05:17<@Terkhen>I just want to fix "vanilla" subsidies a bit
05:18<norbert79>if it doesn't modifies original behaviour, unless set through advanced options
05:18<norbert79>I would like it
05:18<b_jonas>Increase them to four years!
05:19<@Terkhen>subsidy duration and maximum distance between source and destination could be easily turned into advanced settings
05:20<@Terkhen>but we have too many advanced settings already :P
05:20<@planetmaker>:-D
05:20<@planetmaker>Newgrf-interface :-P
05:20*planetmaker hides
05:20<norbert79>lol
05:20<@planetmaker>as town variables
05:20<@Terkhen>we should just make a huge NewGRF engine and let users build their own game
05:21<@planetmaker>sounds good :-P
05:21*Terkhen calls the engine C++
05:21<@Terkhen>wow, it's done
05:21<norbert79>lol, Terkhen, I think players would actually like it :) Yet it sounds indeed good, since it almost takes ages for one configuring adabvnced options and NewGRF settings for making a specific game :)
05:22<@Terkhen>maybe they should be openttd.cfg only options
05:22<norbert79>like if I want to start a US transport scenario with FIRS for example...
05:22<norbert79>Terkhen: Nah, hiding everything in openttd.cfg is not really good neither...
05:22<norbert79>Terkhen: What about a seperate option for this?
05:22<@Terkhen>IMO it is advanced enough, like the pathfinder settings
05:22<norbert79>or having the settings divided into tabs
05:23<norbert79>and not just listed
05:23<@Terkhen>IIRC *someone* had a project to fix setting display once and for all
05:23<@Terkhen>I wonder what happened :P
05:23<norbert79>Terkhen: Why do I have the feeling you are talking about yourself? :)
05:23<@Terkhen>I don't know, it wasn't me
05:24<@Terkhen>if it was me, "lazyness" would be what happened
05:24<@Terkhen>I wouldn't need to wonder much :P
05:24<norbert79>hehhe
05:26<@planetmaker>"once and for all"?
05:26<@planetmaker>is there such solution anywhere?
05:26<norbert79>Well, a Firefox kind of a look (Tabs on top, options listed, and divided by lines) would be ok
05:27<norbert79>just a different view
05:27<@planetmaker>that's what we had before ;-)
05:27<@Terkhen>:P
05:27<norbert79>Guess you need to reimplement it, since it's easy getting lost :)
05:27<@Terkhen>we need an advanced setting to decide how to display advanced settings
05:27<@Terkhen>because I prefer what we have now to tabs :P
05:27<norbert79>Aw, come on :DD
05:28<@planetmaker>I prefer the current view, too
05:28<@planetmaker>we'd have too many tabs
05:28<norbert79>why?
05:28<norbert79>Only the main categories would be needed in tabs
05:28<@planetmaker>yes. Did you count them?
05:28<norbert79>not since 1.0.5
05:28<@planetmaker>And try to put their names next to eachother?
05:28<@planetmaker>it'd be wider than my screen
05:29<norbert79>why not using icons instead of the names? :)
05:29<norbert79>and only make the names visible when hovering over them with the mouse
05:29<@planetmaker>I still don't see the advantage over current view even now
05:30<@planetmaker>you just hide everything except the category by clicking the (+)
05:30<@planetmaker>or (-)
05:30<@Terkhen>you need to know what the icons mean then
05:30<@planetmaker>in the tree
05:30<@Terkhen>might be clear for "vehicles" not so clear for "interface"
05:30<norbert79>Terkhen: "<norbert79> and only make the names visible when hovering over them with the mouse"
05:30<norbert79>Like with the main tools
05:30<@planetmaker>norbert79: but where's then the difference to now?
05:31<norbert79>It would be less confusing...
05:31<@Terkhen>advanced options are complex enough already to force the user to look at tooltips just for category types
05:31<@planetmaker>the tree view gives you all opions quickly accessible. nicely structured
05:31<Brianetta>Ammler: ppcis.org is dead.
05:31<norbert79>The density of the information is too much for me despite (+) and (-)
05:31<norbert79>it's just too thick
05:31<@planetmaker>that's why it's "advanced" options
05:31<@planetmaker>normally not needed
05:32<@planetmaker>there was the idea to introduce different "levels" of 'advanced' which shows more or less options
05:32<norbert79>Considering how much plus the game already has, Advanced options is being part of "MUST"
05:32<@Terkhen>now that I remember, there was a big post about completely remaking all options GUI at the forums
05:35<norbert79>Terkhen: Got link to that?
05:35<norbert79>I would like to go through of it
05:36<b_jonas>planetmaker: rather then different levels, I think there should be different sets of defaults, possibly savable, and at least two sets of defaults distributed with ottd: namely a ttd/ttdp-compatibility, and a modern set.
05:36<b_jonas>the modern set could change in every release.
05:37<b_jonas>the problem is, historically many advanced settings default to compatibility, which doesn't help new players (unfamiliar with ttd and ottd) too much.
05:38<@planetmaker>that is changed from time to time ;-)
05:38<norbert79>b_jonas: And since too many options already it makes them just confused, which soon can make the mood to go away for creating new servers
05:38<@planetmaker>openttd doesn't behave so much as TTD anymore with its default settings
05:38<norbert79>b_jonas: and then they go back to CoD and forget about TTD and OpenTTD :)
05:39<@Terkhen>norbert79: nope, sorry
05:39<@Terkhen>just a vague memory
05:39<norbert79>Terkhen: Did you had any entry written there?
05:39<@planetmaker>norbert79: you don't need to change any settings...
05:39<@Terkhen>no
05:39<@planetmaker>it works usually out-of-box
05:39<norbert79>Terkhen: Pity
05:39<Rubidium>creating new servers? Please not ;)
05:39<@planetmaker>:-)
05:39<b_jonas>planetmaker: even if the defaults change, that don't give a player like me an easy way to upgrade the changed options to modern
05:39<@planetmaker>creating new players?
05:39<Rubidium>people already "complain" that they can't find a populated server
05:39<norbert79>Rubidium: Can't master keep up with the current ones? :))
05:39<@Terkhen>yes, we should focus on creating new players
05:39<@planetmaker>b_jonas: it does: delete openttd.cfg
05:40<b_jonas>should I just delete my config file to let openttd restore the new ones?
05:40<b_jonas>and then diff3 my settings like I do with my editor config files :-)
05:40<@planetmaker>yeah ;-)
05:40<b_jonas>hmm, I might try that
05:40<Rubidium>norbert79: there are ~220 servers and ~110 clients
05:40<@planetmaker>b_jonas: newgrf presets and setting presets as "downloadable items" would make sense
05:40<@planetmaker>to some degree
05:40<norbert79>Rubidium: That's a bad ratio...
05:41<@planetmaker>newgrf presets need a way to work without the exact newgrf version, though
05:41<Rubidium>norbert79: and rarely *ever* does the ratio get about 1:1 (i.e. more clients than servers)
05:41<@Terkhen>setting presets would be nice, yes
05:41<b_jonas>maybe I'm too unixy, but I don't get the point of all these "downloadable items" stuff
05:41<Rubidium>which is why adding more servers is not a good thing to do
05:41<b_jonas>can't you just make those presents just plain files so I can download them with a browser?
05:41<norbert79>Rubidium: Would be worth thinking about how that could happen...
05:41<b_jonas>same way as you can download AIs as files too
05:41<@Terkhen>you can download them with a browser too if you want to
05:41<@planetmaker>b_jonas: "downloadable item" as in "online content download -> select 'this setting' -> click 'download' -> done"
05:42<@peter1138>yeah, hardly any players, considering ottd's supposedly a popular game
05:42<@peter1138>i'm guessing it's not
05:42<@Terkhen>or "update all my content", or "download all the content I need to run this particular savegame"
05:42<@planetmaker>well, settings are never required for a particular savegame ;-)
05:42<b_jonas>Terkhen: hmm, possible
05:42<@Terkhen>which, considering the amount of content, are awesome options
05:42<@planetmaker>they're included
05:42<@Terkhen>oh, I was talking about downloadable content
05:42<norbert79>peter1138: Well, Steve Jobs could make a very small mp3 player sell for the 5 times actually is worth, and it has pretty nice attraction.. :)
05:43<@peter1138>so we have to sell ottd?
05:43<@Terkhen>IMO OpenTTD is mainly played as single player
05:43<Rubidium>norbert79: servers are too easy too set up and there aren't enough costs to make running an empty server unfeasible
05:43<@peter1138>how do you know that?
05:43<norbert79>peter1138: Not really, but making more adverts to that would attract probably more players. Take a look on Angry Birds for example
05:43*peter1138 tries in #minecraft ;p
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>hm... any chance that openttd could display the savegame's game version string, even though it's currently viewed in an invalid version?
05:44<@Terkhen>is that stored somewhere?
05:44<norbert79>Rubidium: That's not a problem, the problem is the ammount of players...
05:44<b_jonas>planetmaker: settings are never required for a particular savegame? this channel has recently told me that I should disable realistic acceleration to make the horse-drawn carriages from eGRVTS work (otherwise they go with 1 km/h only).
05:44<@planetmaker>116 people playing
05:44<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: it should be in the game log
05:44<@Terkhen>ah, true
05:44<norbert79>Rubidium: But think about it: this only means, that only those players are finding OpenTTD interesting, who spend the time even creating a server
05:44<Rubidium>norbert79: lots of servers are unmanaged, meaning that someone can easily mess up the joy for others
05:45<@planetmaker>b_jonas: yes. But the game 'works' without. And the setting "realistic accel for RV yes/no" is stored in the savegame.
05:45<@planetmaker>And using a different setting preset won't change your savegame either
05:45<b_jonas>norbert79: what? I find openttd interesting but I've not created a server.
05:45<Eddi|zuHause>like, if some kind of developer setting is activated, show a button "show gamelog" in the load window
05:45<norbert79>Rubidium: Not really... I think OpenTTD is even better mnanaged than COD2 is. Every addon is available online, no need for spending too much time breaking your head for understanding how it works.
05:45<Rubidium>which is why so many servers are basically not populated *ever*, besides for someone trying and getting pissed off by some annoying other player that loves trashing other people's fun
05:45<norbert79>b_jonas: But the game would need more of such :)
05:45<@Terkhen>Eddi|zuHause: sounds useful
05:46<b_jonas>in fact, shouldn't most new players learn in single player first before they join to servers?
05:47<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: i don't see how that would be a requirement
05:47<@planetmaker>hm... popularity contest: display the total playing-hours on a server averaged over a month ;-)
05:47<@planetmaker>could be faked then easily
05:47<@planetmaker>b_jonas: mostly I didn't
05:47<@Terkhen>if the server is taken care off and it has a nice community, new players could learn there too
05:47<b_jonas>norbert79: the problem is, the addons are available from the online window, but they're not easily available in any other way, such as directly from http, especailly if you want source and if you don't ask the irc channel about where everything is hidden.
05:47<@planetmaker>after one, two games I started playing online. And nearly only do so
05:48<@planetmaker>b_jonas: the readme of them could tell you
05:48<norbert79>Rubidium: I just don't know, maybe this game is just for specific players only, but what is for sure, that Angry Bird (despite it's pretty easy gameplay) got more attraction, than OpenTTD, where OpenTTD is much more...
05:48<@Terkhen>planetmaker: you would be surprised by the amount of FPS game servers that list a false max_players - 1 amount of connected players :P
05:48<norbert79>b_jonas: I agree partly, since many release the GRF's in FOrums only
05:48<b_jonas>planetmaker: they should.
05:48<@Terkhen>and that's because Angry Birds is more "casual"
05:48<b_jonas>planetmaker: often, even the license conditions aren't included in the binary dist
05:48<b_jonas>which is crazy
05:49<@planetmaker>norbert79: which important grfs were released forum-only?
05:49<@Terkhen>b_jonas: http://bananas.openttd.org/en/
05:49<@planetmaker>except by a single person?
05:49<@Terkhen>every addon is there
05:49<b_jonas>Terkhen: yep, for the GRFs, but why isn't there a clear link from the openttd server and from this topic
05:49<@Terkhen>(every addon available through the online content of course)
05:49<b_jonas>Terkhen: and the AIs are in a different place I think
05:49<@Terkhen>no, AIs are there too
05:50<@Terkhen>and if you want ingame links... you need to come up with a good multiplatform way to open browsers from OpenTTD
05:50<norbert79>planetmaker: Can't come up with an exact example, but take screewnshots, where someone starts a game starting in 1800. It looks awesome, releases the GRF list (a list in HTML format or plain text would be useful), and when I start to do the same, I find, that 75% of the content is only available, and importants were missing
05:50<b_jonas>Terkhen: if you really want them, I'll look at how to do taht
05:50<@Terkhen>it's something I would love to have, yes
05:51<b_jonas>wait, I'll write that up
05:51<norbert79>planetmaker: I think restricting releases of GRF's in Bananas only would help a bit... or releases of GRF lists, which can be copy-pasted into openTTD.cfg
05:51<norbert79>planetmaker: So one can just start playing using the same scenario/mood/...
05:51<@Terkhen>people can release NewGRF files as they want to... it's not something we can (and IMO should) control
05:51<@planetmaker>err? why would that help and how could that be faciliated?
05:51<b_jonas>still, I'd like an easy link to bananas from the openttd homepage, and a link to source and terms of copying in the binary dist of most grfs
05:52<@planetmaker>and yes, why should we even attempt to control newgrf development?
05:52<b_jonas>Terkhen: sure
05:52<@Terkhen>b_jonas: LordAro was working in a patch for displaying the README files of downloadable content
05:53<@Terkhen>hmmm... he hasn't been in this channel for a while
05:53<norbert79>planetmaker: One example: go inside any screenshots page, and you will see often some cool pictures. Now normally noone starts with listing exactly what GRF's one has used. I would be happy having a quote from the openttd.cfg where I cxan see the files he used, or somehow able to click a file, which automatically downloads all necessary GRF files... Or something.
05:53<norbert79>planetmaker: Let me find an example
05:53<Eddi|zuHause><Terkhen> people can release NewGRF files as they want to... it's not something we can (and IMO should) control <-- actually we should, just to make MB's worst nightmares come true :p
05:53<@Terkhen>norbert79: you can get that list... as long as the png file was saved using the ingame screenshot option and not modified later
05:53<b_jonas>ah yes, the screenshots page is hopelessly obsolate
05:54*Terkhen appoints Eddi|zuHause as the leader of the future OpenTTD Thought Police
05:54<@planetmaker>norbert79: osie is your friend, if it's a screenshot made ingame
05:54<norbert79>Terkhen: Ok, I will just show you an example... SOme people use 10-25 GRF's art the same time, and no options are listed either. I would be happy having a .grf_list for example, which would include all GRF's to be used, including options listed too, like an scn file
05:54<@planetmaker>http://www.openttd.org/en/download-osie
05:55<@Terkhen>norbert79: that's what osie does
05:55<Eddi|zuHause>more image viewers should have builtin metadata viewers...
05:55<@Terkhen>I'm not sure about the options, though
05:55<@Terkhen>maybe we should have an online version of osie
05:55<@planetmaker>it's all written in the png header of screenshots
05:55<norbert79>planetmaker: See? I wsn't aware of this, unless I don't mention... See, this is why this game scares people away. Many functions must be hunted for
05:55<@planetmaker>I don't see how that scares people
05:55<norbert79>planetmaker: Now you shared this with me, now I know...
05:55<@planetmaker>I don't know any other game where a screenshot lists the used add-ons or mods
05:56<@Terkhen>well, we have a wiki :)
05:56<@planetmaker>nor actually any other game which has such convenient tool as osie
05:56<Rubidium>hmm... the advanced settings having too many settings and too dense on information, and then complaining that the game doesn't provide enough?
05:56<norbert79>planetmaker: Ok, generic way of a user: user finds game, is happy starts playing. Sees new possibilites starts asking. He checks servers, gets confused by many options. Wants to try new things, he gets let down because noone wants to implement in main, but 'use GRF'.. then comes the GRF hell...
05:57<@Terkhen>norbert79: what should we do to fix that?
05:57<norbert79>Terkhen: That needs more thinking, I can't answer this for you in 5 minutes...
05:57<@planetmaker>grfs are just downloaded via online content. Easy as pie. Activate those grfs which you like. Easy as pie, too
05:57<@Terkhen>and "implement in main" is not an option
05:57<@Terkhen>I don't know how to solve it either, besides "fix the wiki" :)
05:58<Rubidium>ah, so OpenTTD should out of the box provide *all* imaginable trains, wagons and features in a single game?
05:58<norbert79>planetmaker: Ok, did you ever got through all the GRF's? Bananas is very tight on info, downloader is a bit easier, but still gives you not much info...
05:58<norbert79>Rubidium: No
05:58<@planetmaker>norbert79: probably I went through all grfs, yes
05:58<norbert79>planetmaker: You did... But generic users won't
05:59<@planetmaker>each grf is an add-on written by another user to faciliate a different effect
05:59<@Terkhen>they can ask for NewGRF suggestions at the forums, many do that
05:59<@planetmaker>how could it in principle be simpliefied?
05:59<@Terkhen>or ask here (which is what I did)
05:59<Rubidium>http://devs.openttd.org/~rubidium/newgrf.html <- go through those ;)
05:59<@planetmaker>different people have different tastes of what constitutes a good selection, chocie or everything
05:59<Rubidium>good luck finding a large part of them though
05:59<norbert79>Guys, don't you get it? You always tell why I am wrong, and why something is good as it is, you never rerally consider possibilites, or think through criticism... See, this is also one thing which is something I find problematic.
06:00<@Terkhen>what I try to point is: "I don't know how to make it better, do you?"
06:00<@Terkhen>because I honestly don't
06:00<norbert79>Terkhen: Why shall one MUST be involved with development if coming up with ideas?
06:00<@Terkhen>what ideas?
06:00<norbert79>Any ideas
06:01<norbert79>If someone comes up with something: go and make a NewGRf
06:01<@Terkhen>that's what I'm asking for... ideas to solve the issues you mention
06:01<norbert79>if someone would like to add: go and make a GRF
06:01<norbert79>it's always the same
06:01<@Terkhen>I'm a bit lost, I think that you changed the conversation topic :)
06:02<@Terkhen>anyways, what should be implemented ingame instead of using a NewGRF in your opinion?
06:02<Rubidium>really? If it makes sense to implement it as a GRF then yes, it should be a GRF. Not yet another setting.
06:02<norbert79>See? Again: It is as good as it is...
06:02<norbert79>:)
06:02<Rubidium>huh? Why should we implement German trains?
06:02<Rubidium>why should that become a setting?
06:03<Rubidium>instead of "downloadable content"?
06:03<@planetmaker>it's a setting. In the newgrf menu ;-)
06:03<@Terkhen>norbert79: sorry, but I need an example
06:03<norbert79>I give up.. The problem is, that you never really try to think through, and you mainly never answeer a question, but ask back.. This is the annoying part.
06:03<norbert79>Terkhen: Sure, if you wait a bit
06:04<@Terkhen>I ask back because telling us random ideas and expect us to develop the idea itself taking into account every problem and then coding it is IMO not fair with our work
06:04<norbert79>You are the developers, not me
06:04<norbert79>why are you suprised?
06:05<norbert79>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=46766&start=20 - Found
06:05<@Terkhen>but you know enough about the game to participate in discussions about new options
06:05<norbert79>Terkhen: But generic users don't, and if they even try to get involved, they always end up being forced creating a GRF...
06:05<@Terkhen>hmm... that's a screenshot thread, what does it have to do with "whenever I ask something, I get told to do a NewGRF"?
06:05<norbert79>anyway, one problem: check the picture listing all the GRF's
06:05*Terkhen reads
06:05<norbert79>http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=122828
06:06<norbert79>to make it easier
06:06<norbert79>now try to get all of these.. I failed
06:06<@Terkhen>that means that some NewGRF authors refuse to distribute their NewGRFs via bananas
06:06<@Terkhen>or that the user is using unreleased versions of NewGRFs
06:07<@Terkhen>what can be we do about that?
06:07<norbert79>See, just one idea: it would be much nicer having an option file exceprt including parameters, so one can just click the list, and this GRF list would be added
06:07<norbert79>if present in Bananas
06:07<@Terkhen>that exists
06:07<@planetmaker>norbert79: so. Now, how can the _game_ or _we_ help to make it easier to explain where *someone* got *his* newgrfs for *his* game on his *private* computer?
06:07<@Terkhen>download the savegame, try to load it
06:07<@Terkhen>it will tell you that some files are missing
06:07<@Terkhen>and give you the option to check if those files are present in the online content
06:07<norbert79>Terkhen: Oh, right.. Vry attractive method :)
06:07<norbert79>but sure, it's easier that way, but other methods would be more welcome as well
06:07<@peter1138>who uses presets?
06:08<@Terkhen>which methods?
06:08*planetmaker sometimes does, peter1138
06:08<@peter1138>i remember darkvater didn't like the idea o_O
06:08<@planetmaker>but I'd like them to allow 'update to newest version'
06:08<norbert79>planetmaker: Like in other games not only Bananas could be used for transferring GRF? :)
06:08<@peter1138>planetmaker, yeah, that's my gripe ;)
06:08<norbert79>planetmaker: but through the server as well?
06:08<@Terkhen>norbert79: some NewGRF authors oppose to that
06:09<@planetmaker>that was not feasible to agree upon
06:09<norbert79>Then they should not enable this for their servers
06:09<@Terkhen>how can we know if we are authorised to distribute their NewGRFs that way
06:09<norbert79>so easy
06:09<norbert79>aw, comne on, see?
06:09<@planetmaker>no, it's a copyright issue
06:09<@Terkhen>yes, it's a copyright issue
06:09<norbert79>It would be just easier making an option: allow transfer of GRF's.. Yes or no
06:09<@peter1138>newgrf authors don't tend to host servers
06:09<@planetmaker>we must not distribute something we are not allowed to
06:09<@Terkhen>if someone says "this NewGRF cannot be distributed unless from my homepage"
06:10<@peter1138>other people host servers, and the newgrf authors have no control over that
06:10<@Terkhen>we are violating the license
06:10<norbert79>it should be the responsibility of the hoster what he distributes or what he doesn't
06:10<norbert79>And see, I am again let down on a very basic idea
06:10<norbert79>getting it why the game has only limited attraction?
06:10<@Terkhen>because we respect copyright?
06:10<@planetmaker>yeah, we're a bunch of evils who barely thought about anything related to this game and just rebuff great ideas
06:10<@Terkhen>in this case, there is nothing we can do
06:10<@Terkhen>the author of the NewGRF decides
06:11<@Terkhen>that's why only the original author can upload stuff to bananas
06:11<norbert79>Yeah, makes no sense. If he doesn't want one thing made redistributable, he dowsxn't release it in Banans
06:11<norbert79>but this way noone will play his GRF, right?
06:11<@Terkhen>yes
06:11<@planetmaker>yes
06:11<norbert79>and if one still has it on a server, one cannot joinm
06:11<@Terkhen>we can agree that such behavior makes no sense :)
06:11<norbert79>so only a few elits are able to do so
06:11<@planetmaker>norbert79: except those 5 people who post a screenshot
06:12<@planetmaker>and then you come and complain that that newgrf is not found
06:12<norbert79>lol.. Makes so much sense. Enable download makes the same
06:12<@Terkhen>norbert79: we would only be able to enable download if the authors authorised us to do that
06:12<norbert79>In case for SWAT 4 if one doesn't want distribute maps, it disables the option. Problem solved
06:12<@Terkhen>and that's what bananas does
06:12<norbert79>that makes no sense.
06:12<norbert79>I will give up, thgis is leadiong nowehere, you don1t even take the time thinking this through..
06:12<@Terkhen>I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm saying that's how copyright works
06:13<Lachie>are we secretly talking about mb?
06:13<Rubidium>norbert79: having NewGRFs downloaded from the game server makes sense, but it's a gigantic legal/copyright bear trap which we want to avoid
06:13<@planetmaker>no?
06:13<@Terkhen>why should I think it through if I know for certain that some NewGRF authors would demand that their NewGRFs are not distributed this way and we have no way to know which ones we can distribute and which ones we can't¿
06:13<@Terkhen>?
06:13<@Terkhen>it is not feasible, because of the way copyright and people work
06:14<@planetmaker>Terkhen: technically it's not our problem if *some* server distributes newgrfs
06:14<@planetmaker>it's the server's responsibility
06:14<Rubidium>norbert79: especially, if we violate copyright of the NewGRFs then we have no way to claim that others breaking OpenTTD's copyright should stop doing so
06:14<norbert79>Rubidium: Ok, very easy example: if one author doesn't want a GRF distributed but it stil got it distributed, why would OpenTTD devs care? It's the responsilbity of the hoster, not the developers...
06:14<@planetmaker>still, the online content could only be successful because we imposed this limit at that time
06:14<@Terkhen>you are using the master server to access that server
06:14<norbert79>Rubidium: This is just being paranoid, not pre-cautious
06:14<Rubidium>norbert79: remember Napster, the Pirate Bay and such?
06:14<@Terkhen>so we are the ones who facilitate distribution of content
06:14<Rubidium>norbert79: they are taken down because they facilitate illegal downloading
06:15<norbert79>Ok, I guess you missed a few years, because PB works well, and these are just not so good examples
06:15<norbert79>it's more a question of who owns the repsonsibiltiy
06:15<@Terkhen>PB has been jumping from another country to another, and has been closed momentarily a few times already
06:15*planetmaker goes back to rather *creating* online content
06:15<norbert79>Terkhen: Still up and working, but lets put that aside
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06:16<norbert79>One thing is for sure: until you don't enable GRF transfer throiugh servers, the GRF issue will stay, and poeple won't get attracted by it...
06:16<b_jonas>so wait, are there actually people that create GRFs but don't want to distribute it freely?
06:17<@planetmaker>norbert79: reality contradicts your statement
06:17<@Terkhen>b_jonas: sadly, yes
06:17<norbert79>b_jonas: Yes... Makes sense, huh?
06:17<b_jonas>are they waiting for Chris Sawyer to buy those GRFs for the next game?
06:17<norbert79>planetmaker: 110 players for 220 servers... Are you sure?
06:17<@Terkhen>norbert79: the only feasible solution I can think for your problem is a filter in the multiplayer server list... "do not display servers that include NewGRFs from outside online content"
06:17<@planetmaker>norbert79: that's independent of newgrfs
06:17<norbert79>planetmaker: You think...
06:18<Rubidium>"Servers registered as on 2011-10-14 10:18:00 UTC. There are 114 clients, 194 IPv4 servers and 30 IPv6 servers.
06:18<norbert79>Terkhen: That could be a solution. Not the best, maybe really something not preferable, but a solution.
06:18<@planetmaker>norbert79: no, I know the ratio of servers / players prior to introduction of online content, too
06:18<Rubidium>114 clients vs 224 servers
06:18<b_jonas>as in, they want to limit their distribution? or they're just lazy to bundle it up in such a way that they're downloadable from online content?
06:18<@planetmaker>and the ratio of servers / newgrf-servers
06:19<Lachie>could ofcourse introduce an Action 08 switch to define whether or not it can be transferred in that manner, but that would probably be going a very long way about it.
06:19<@Terkhen>the other solution is: "convince EVERY NewGRF author to change their mind and release their NewGRFs on bananas"
06:19<@planetmaker>not going to happen :-)
06:19<norbert79>planetmaker: Take UT99 for example.. it has a few hundred servers but tousands online... Why? Because online content is spread through servers too. YOu connect, get what you need, you enjoy it.. Period. and if was something the creator didn't want to spread must blame the one whom he shared it with
06:19<@planetmaker>as I'll always have my private built of my newgrfs :-P
06:19<norbert79>planetmaker: It's not UT99-s fault if someone was dumb enough spreading something...
06:19<@Terkhen>or "make changes to the NewGRF specs so everyone must agree to some terms such as allowing distribution" which would split the community
06:20<norbert79>Plain option: allow GRF transfer through servers: On/Off... problem solved.
06:20<b_jonas>I don't want to restrict GRF authors to release their GRFs freely, I'd just like to understand the motivation
06:20<norbert79>The same way many mainstream games do as well
06:21<@Terkhen>norbert79: we allow distribution of content already... if someone wants to make their server private by including NewGRFs that are not on bananas, it's their loss
06:21<norbert79>Terkhen: Why forcing Bananas? Why not allowing it as an additional option?
06:21<norbert79>and cxopyright will stay still in force
06:21<@Terkhen>because some content authors would oppose to that way of distribution
06:21<norbert79>So?
06:22<@Terkhen>and their copyright explicitly says so
06:22<norbert79>The turn of GRF distribution through servers
06:22<norbert79>and rest will be still available through Bananas
06:22<norbert79>they
06:22<norbert79>problem solved again
06:22<@peter1138>who's "they"?
06:22<@Terkhen>how can they turn off GRF distribution?
06:22<norbert79>if they don't want get his stuff distriuted, they shall not send it to anyone as first step
06:22<norbert79>it's like sharing private erotical photos
06:22<norbert79>if you don't want to get them seen
06:22<Rubidium>norbert79: there's a legal issue with that; those "mainstream" games did it from the start, so all content created for it knew of the "requirement" for redistributability. For OpenTTD there has not been such "requirement" and as such we can't (legally) force it on NewGRFs released way before OpenTTD distributing NewGRFs got implemented
06:22<norbert79>Don't share them
06:23<@Terkhen>exactly, we would need to assume "all old NewGRFs are not distributable"
06:23<norbert79>220 vs 110 players... I am just saying...
06:23<@Terkhen>which would solve... nothing
06:23<@planetmaker>new action14 entry ;-)
06:23<norbert79>lol
06:23<@planetmaker>DIST: 1
06:23<norbert79>yeah, could be done
06:23<@Terkhen>new NewGRFs are already on bananas usually
06:23<@Terkhen>and we can't fix the old ones
06:23<norbert79>planetmaker: But making action14 work you must be able to distribute it through servers :)
06:23<Lachie>planetmaker: what I meant when I was saying an Action08 switch :P
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06:24<norbert79>planetmaker: and it still can be hacked ;-))
06:24<norbert79>Ok, lunch time
06:24<@planetmaker>Lachie: action8 can't be changed much. Action14 is better
06:24<@Terkhen>enjoy :)
06:24<@planetmaker>and targeted for such use
06:24<Lachie>norbert79: if it's "hacked" that's out of the hands of the dev team anyway
06:25<@planetmaker>a hacked newgrf fortunately differs from the original one ;-)
06:25<@Terkhen>yes :P
06:28<Lachie>I'll admit I've never even heard of Action14
06:28<@Terkhen>it's a recent addition
06:28<Lachie>though, the last time I seriously coded was when TTDP was still undisputed champion.
06:28<@planetmaker>Lachie: you should read up on it :-)
06:29<@planetmaker>Very useful. And should be part of any new release really
06:29<@planetmaker>it adds those info which action8 cannot add ;-)
06:29<@planetmaker>like version, min_compatible_version, palette,...
06:30<@planetmaker>parameter descriptions
06:30<Lachie>so it's like an extension of an Action8?
06:30<Lachie>interesting, will have to look that up pronto
06:30<@planetmaker>it's a multi-purpose one actually. But most existing standard extensions target to provide additional info on the newgrf
06:30<@Terkhen>yes, parameter descriptions are awesome :)
06:30<@Terkhen>I wasn't able to start with NewGRFs until that
06:31<@planetmaker>newgrfs w/o action14 parameter descriptions kinda suck ;-)
06:31<b_jonas>I mean, it's not only the terms of copying that are missing from binary grf dists: some of them say "see info about parameters in the README", but that README is not distributed with the binary
06:31<@planetmaker> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action14 <- Lachie
06:31<Lachie>aggressive marketting there. haha.
06:31<Lachie>planetmaker: already found it. reading up
06:32<@planetmaker>b_jonas: the readme is - or can be - distributed
06:32<@planetmaker>it's just nicely in the tar you got
06:32<@planetmaker>if the readme is NOT provided, then it's the fault of the author
06:32<@planetmaker>as s/he go the chance to add it to the thing bananas distributes
06:32<b_jonas>planetmaker: I have checked the tar
06:32<b_jonas>planetmaker: and yes, it is the fault of the author
06:33<@planetmaker>hm... colour depth :-)
06:33<@Terkhen>b_jonas: regarding our previous discussion, IMO a readme viewer and allowing to click on http links from inside OpenTTD would fix most of it :)
06:33<@planetmaker>quite
06:34<@planetmaker>the readme viewer would be highly welcome
06:34<@Terkhen>displaying parameters already fixed part of the issues
06:34<@Terkhen>but not all
06:34<@planetmaker>it's 80% of the way. But not 100% ;-)
06:34<@planetmaker>but then there are always new destinations to reach
06:35<b_jonas>Terkhen: yep, unless you also want to play ottd without net connectivity
06:35<Lachie>oh derp, we're not even using version 6 anymore. awkward.
06:35<b_jonas>in which case it's better to also distribute the html docs in the tarball too
06:36<@Terkhen>hmm... but the readme viewer would do more or less the same thing
06:37<b_jonas>look, like I said, I would not like a readme viewer
06:37<@planetmaker>Lachie: version7 certainly is older than 3 years
06:37<b_jonas>I'm a unix guy, I want ONE utility to do everything
06:37<b_jonas>one editor, one html viewer
06:37<b_jonas>and this one can be replaced by the user
06:37<b_jonas>so ottd shouldn't impose a viewer on me
06:37<b_jonas>it should be supplied by me
06:37<@planetmaker>hm... don't want unix guys one separate tool for every separate task?
06:37<b_jonas>so opening in a browser is better
06:37<@planetmaker>k, mis-understood you, I guess :-)
06:37<b_jonas>planetmaker: no, I want a few tools that do everything
06:38<@planetmaker>really? that's not unix-y
06:38<b_jonas>planetmaker: a single editor that I customize and that I use to edit everything, including programs in any language or any configuration
06:38<@planetmaker>that's windozy
06:38<Lachie>planetmaker: see what I mean when I said it's been an age since I last took a serious look at this code.
06:38<@Terkhen>but the readme viewer wouldn't be an editor... it would be just a wall of text with a scrollbar
06:38<b_jonas>I guess I'm quite unclear here
06:39<@planetmaker>b_jonas: unix is like all things like awk, less, vi, patch, ... all separate programmes
06:39<@planetmaker>anyway, besides the point here ;-)
06:39<@Terkhen>vim? :P
06:39<@planetmaker>vim is vi ;-)
06:40<@Terkhen>oh, I missed vi in your list... that does way more than a single thing :P
06:42<@planetmaker>yes. But I can't live without on *nix ;-)
06:43<@planetmaker>nor actually without it on osx ;-)
06:44<Lachie>okay, is it just me or is the overall look of how an Action14 should be set out completely different than other actions. I'm seeing literal strings everywhere
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06:47<b_jonas>I find vim as my second choice of editor, for I can use it (even with its default settings) on any system if my first choice isn't yet installed. Vim is available almost everywhere luckily.
06:48<b_jonas>Some parts of vim is a very good idea
06:48<b_jonas>I should steal them to my config
06:48<b_jonas>but some other parts are very distracting
06:49<@Terkhen>when I started with linux I found it confusing for me, a novice accustomed to windows, so I used gedit and nano instead
06:49<@Yexo>Lachie: it's a bit different, it uses DWORDS as labels. Depending on the value of a dword it can be nicely represented as string
06:50<@Yexo>and it was designed to be extensible while maintaining backwards compatibility
06:50<@Yexo>ehm, forward compatibility rather
06:53<Lachie>ah. I'm just looking at it like, this is... different
06:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23028 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix: when using a gender choice list there was still a value popped twice from the newgrf textstack
06:55<b_jonas>Terkhen: that much is true, the basics of emacs are easier to learn for someone accustomed to wordstar-like editors
06:57<@peter1138>what? no... vim... all the way
07:09<norbert79>I am lazy, I prefer Gedit, but I too use vim when doing something special
07:09<norbert79>or Notepad++ in Windows
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>using DWORDs as labels is common practice. just look at the GRFID
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>or any RIFF
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07:13<Eddi|zuHause>hm... elegant or hacky? "__repr__ = lambda self: 'Tree(%r, %s)'%(self.value, ', '.join(map(repr, self.children)))"
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>or one step further: __repr__ = lambda self: '%s(%r, %s)'%(self.__class__.__name__, self.value, ', '.join(map(repr, self.children)))
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07:21<Lachie>random, stupid question. How does one count the amount of bytes when there are strings involved?
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>nforenum
07:21<@planetmaker>as long as it's ascii: count the characters
07:22<norbert79>wc -c if Unix
07:22<@planetmaker>but newgrfs are better numbered by nforenum
07:22<Lachie>yeah, just leave it for renum to do
07:27<Lachie>interesting, my Action14 ridiculously broke the GRF. #LearningExperiences
07:27<@Yexo>in which way did it brake it?
07:28<@Yexo>openttd should ignore an invalid action14
07:28<Lachie>I'm not even sure what it's done.
07:29<Lachie>the first time I tried running ottd it came with an error before the game even loaded. Invalid GRF or something of the sort
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07:29<Lachie>on subsequent openings of the game it's not even present
07:29<Lachie>(the GRF in the NewGRF Settings dialogue, I mean)
07:29<@Yexo>start the game with "-d grf=5" and look at the console output
07:30<appe>evening
07:30<@planetmaker>Lachie: but nforenum did not complain about anything?
07:30<@planetmaker>hi appe
07:31<Lachie>hmm
07:32<Lachie>doesn't appear to have
07:32<Lachie>nevermind
07:32<appe>what is up
07:32<Lachie>linter failure on sprite 1.
07:32<@planetmaker>Lachie: care to just paste your code somewhere?
07:35<Lachie>yeah, I'll just have a quick sniff around first to make sure I'm not embarrassing myself (more than likely)
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07:42<Lachie>eh, at this point I'm willing to brandish my stupidity to all. Give us a sec.
07:47<Lachie>alright, embarrass me, planetmaker: http://openttd.lachlanstevens.net/index.php?title=Paste
07:48<@planetmaker>"D" and "8"
07:48<@planetmaker>instead of D and 8
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07:49<Lachie>I'm taking this is something to do with my charset?
07:49<Lachie>or
07:49<Lachie>oh duh
07:49<Lachie>ignore me
07:50<Lachie>I'm an idiot
07:50<@planetmaker>no. It's a literal letter. Not a hex :-)
07:50<Lachie>but thank you.
07:50<@planetmaker>And you#re not an idiot
07:50<Brianetta>ಠ_ಠ
07:51<Lachie>haha
07:51<Lachie>cheers, I'll give it a go now
07:55<Lachie>alright. Loads in OpenTTD now, nforenum is still throwing up a linter failure on that sprite however?
07:57<Eddi|zuHause>misses a 00 at the end?
07:57<@planetmaker>oh, it does? Hm
07:58<Lachie>does it? looks fine to m?
07:58<Lachie>me*
07:58<Eddi|zuHause>one 00 for the action 14, one 00 for the INFO, one 00 for each entry
07:59<Lachie>ah yes.
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>actually, "B" entries don't get 00's
08:01<Lachie>ah okay. It's working with them on there anyway.
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08:02<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: i suggest adding a "Suitable for:" field identifying the intended role of locomotives, a la NARS2
08:02<@Yexo>Lachie: it doesn't "work just fine" with those 00s
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: yes. but i didn't look at newgrf supplied descriptions yet
08:03<@Yexo>what happens is that the 00 after the PALS line is read instead of the "B" on the second line for the type of the next one
08:03<@Yexo>since "type" is 0, that means the end of the current "C" block
08:03<Elukka>alright
08:03<Elukka>hmm, should i work on sprites or physical models :P
08:03<Eddi|zuHause><Elukka> Eddi|zuHause: did you make magic pink work or figure out a new way for wagon loads yet? <-- magic pink works. now we need to devise some appropriate recolour maps for black/grey/yellow/red/...
08:03<@Yexo>since that's the original (first) "C" block in this action, processing is stopped there
08:04<Elukka>cool
08:04<Elukka>i'll go make a magic-pink loaded version of the open wagon then
08:04<Elukka>hm. i think we'll need empty, half load, full load?
08:05<@Yexo>why are you using magic pink and not the company colours?
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: to avoid colours that might actually be used on the wagon
08:05<Lachie>alright, pulled them out
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: recolouring is for cargo (coal, sand, grain, ore, ...)
08:06<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: right. If you still want to recolour both magic pink and company colours you'll have to create your own recolour sprites that incorporate both
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: do as many loading stages as you like
08:06<@Yexo>so num_magic_pink_recolours * num_company_colours sprites
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: yes, that will be no problem to autogenerate :)
08:07<@Yexo>now for 2cc :p
08:07<Lachie>thank you for the help guys.
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: just another nested for loop :)
08:07*Yexo imagines 1500 odd recolour sprites
08:07<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: GermanRV does that :)
08:08<@Yexo>if you go there you'll now find the opengfx source code a nice guide
08:08<@Yexo>s/guide/example/
08:08<@Yexo>it's not scripted in there, but that would be easy to do
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: for CETS i programmed maybe 500 LOCs, yet it contains 27000 sprites :)
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08:15<@peter1138>but there's a sprite limit of 16384!
08:16<norbert79>hah, cheated then :)
08:17<@peter1138>Limitation disturbs me very sprites. Goes it throw out limitation?
08:18<@planetmaker>there is?
08:18<@planetmaker>peter1138: but... openttd loads that grf just fine (last time I checked)
08:22<@peter1138>...
08:22<@peter1138>are you that young? :)
08:22<@peter1138>i though everyone knew the sprite limit quote :(
08:22<@planetmaker>sorry, I didn't recognize it being a quote ;-)
08:23<@Yexo>I did, so it's nothing to do with the time of being here
08:24<@Yexo>for the fun of it: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=192464
08:24<@Yexo>it's actually _very_ old
08:26<@planetmaker>seems so. quite
08:27<norbert79>"Limitation disturbs me very sprites. Goes it throw out limitation?" Lol
08:29<@peter1138>i like the people replying that there's no sprite limit
08:29<@peter1138>when there blatantly was
08:29<norbert79>was or is?
08:30<@peter1138>was
08:30<@peter1138>there still is
08:30<norbert79>Which is?
08:30<@peter1138>but it's rather higher
08:30<norbert79>Just for self-note
08:30<norbert79>how big?
08:30<@Yexo>2**29 or so?
08:30<norbert79>ah, nice
08:30<norbert79>that will be enough for a while :)
08:30<@peter1138>no, 2**24
08:30<norbert79>2^ 24 you mean?
08:31<@peter1138>i left a byte for any miscellaneous flags that we might need
08:31<norbert79>16.777.216
08:31<@Yexo>ah, right
08:32<@peter1138>i think you'd probably run out memory before getting anywhere near that limit though
08:32<@planetmaker>it needs a few newgrfs to actually fill that ;-9
08:32<norbert79>probably, but considering current memory use of current PC's :)
08:32<@peter1138>old limit was 2**14, with 2 bits for flags
08:32<norbert79>planetmaker: Noone thought that every day PC's would need several gigabytes of RAM :)
08:32<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, 10-15 years ago
08:33<@Yexo>also note that that limit is only for real sprites. You can have as many pseudo sprites in grfs as you want
08:33<norbert79>nice
08:33<@peter1138>not in ttdpatch ;)
08:33<@Yexo>"real sprites" = graphics and also recolour sprites in this case
08:33<@Yexo>ttdpatch doesn't have a 2**24 limit either
08:33<@peter1138>nope
08:33<@planetmaker>oh, no. recolour sprites count, too?
08:34<@planetmaker>@calc factorial(192)
08:34<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: 'factorial' is not a defined function.
08:34<@peter1138>yes, shocking isn't it
08:34<@planetmaker>@calc factor(192)
08:34<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: 'factor' is not a defined function.
08:34<@peter1138>and! the landscape sprites too!
08:34<@planetmaker>@calc !192
08:34<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
08:34<@Yexo>@calc 192!
08:34<@DorpsGek>Yexo: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
08:34<@peter1138>planetmaker, what are you trying to work out there?
08:34<norbert79>@calc 2^24
08:34<@DorpsGek>norbert79: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
08:34<@planetmaker>peter1138: amount of possible recolour sprites which make sense
08:34<norbert79>@calc 2**24
08:34<@DorpsGek>norbert79: 16777216
08:34<norbert79>ah
08:35<norbert79>that's why you guys use ** instead of regular ^
08:35<@peter1138>eh, well you can map any of the 256 values to any of the other 256 values
08:35<@Yexo>planetmaker: that would be 255!, not 192!
08:35<+glx>python syntax
08:35<@peter1138>255 then :p
08:35<@Yexo>assuming you never remap color 0
08:35<norbert79>glx: Python changes everything :P :)
08:35<@planetmaker>Yexo: I wanted to ignore the pink for now... but 192 or so was the number probably w/o any action colours
08:36<@peter1138>^ doesn't mean power in C either
08:36<+glx>norbert79: ^ is xor
08:36<@Yexo>but pink is certainly valid, given that eddi is already using it (or will be soon) in cets
08:36<norbert79>peter1138: but in regular calculators :)
08:36<@planetmaker>I know
08:36<norbert79>peter1138: and many place elsewhere too
08:36<@Yexo>there are 12 pink colors in the dos palette
08:36<+glx>we are programmers :)
08:36<@planetmaker>I didn't quite understand why pink is used, though. But well :-)
08:37<@Yexo>they want to recolour the cargo, but don't want to use colors for the cargo that might be used for the actual wagons
08:37<@peter1138>because it's obvious
08:37<@Yexo>since that means they'd recolor parts of the wagon too
08:37<norbert79>glx: Google is also using ^ ;-) :D I know... It's just I am used to ^ :)
08:37<@Yexo>norbert79: google understands both
08:37<norbert79>Yexo: Let me see...
08:37<norbert79>Yexo: Nice!
08:38<norbert79>Pity Google can't do Algebra :)
08:39<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: how do you plan to layer the wagon and cargo sprites to a single sprite?
08:39<@planetmaker>wolfram alpha can
08:39<norbert79>planetmaker: I heard about it, never got deep into it
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: that's for the artists to figure out
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08:41<@planetmaker>Yexo: I'd assume using a layered graphics file is relatively easy, isn't it?
08:41<@Yexo>true
08:41<norbert79>planetmaker: Thanks for the tip, now I know which website to block from my son, so he makes his math on his own :DD
08:41<@planetmaker>http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=x**2+%2B+x+-2+%3D+0 <-- norbert79
08:43<@planetmaker>http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%28d%2Fdx+ln+x+%2B+3%29+%3D+5
08:43<@planetmaker>it's easy to use really :-)
08:43<norbert79>oh god, I hope my son never discovers it, unless he is finished with elementary school :)
08:43<norbert79>planetmaker: Exactly, that's the problem :D
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's basically mathematica in your browser
08:45<@planetmaker>yup
08:45<norbert79>planetmaker: Does it also details how to solve the equation, or just tells you the result only?
08:46<norbert79>Pressed random, it gave "Japan military strength"
08:46<norbert79>and it solved it :D
08:48<@planetmaker>it gives you steps for taking derivative or integrals
08:48<@planetmaker>if you want
08:48<norbert79>and it also can create specific things like a barcode... Cool
08:48<@planetmaker>with verbose explanation why the step is valid
08:49<@planetmaker>http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=d%2Fdx+%28x**3+-x+%2B+sin%28x%29%29 <-- i.e. look
08:49<@planetmaker>and click "show steps"
08:49<norbert79>planetmaker: This site MUST be banned for my son, otherwise he will never do anything on his own :)
08:50<@Yexo>if he only used the site he'll simply fail his exams since he doesn't understand anything of it
08:50<@Yexo>I fail to see how banning the site helps
08:51<norbert79>Yexo: Got children? :)
08:51<@Yexo>no
08:51<norbert79>You will understand it then :)
08:51<norbert79>when you get one
08:52<norbert79>trust me, some sites shall not be shown.. yet :)
08:52<norbert79>it's like telling the end of a story right at the start :)
08:54<Elukka>http://www.railroad24.de/forum_anhang/14120520070549.jpg
08:54<Elukka>what a weird locomotive...
08:54<norbert79>1920's looking
08:55<norbert79>looks like a military train
08:55<Elukka>something like that
08:55<Elukka>nah
08:55<norbert79>I mean locomotive
08:55<Elukka>it's not armored, it's streamlined
08:55<norbert79>I see
08:55<norbert79>I thought armour
08:55<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/LBE_Doppelstockwagen.jpg
08:55<Elukka>pulled these
08:55<Elukka>which also look way too modern for the 30's
08:56<norbert79>Elukka: My favorite ones: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Gesch%C3%BCtzDora2.JPG :)
08:57<norbert79>and Gustav
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08:57<Elukka>http://i.imgur.com/Dj3it.jpg
08:57<Elukka>how about this :P
08:57<Elukka>a moon rocket on rails
08:57<norbert79>nice
08:58<norbert79>makes sense
08:58-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd
08:58<norbert79>But the one train you showed from Wikipedia lookks also nice
08:58<norbert79>Talking about the 30's, Baordwalk Empire Season 2 episode 1 was nice
08:59<norbert79>but let's focus on these loco-motives :)
08:59<Elukka>i don't get how the vehicle transporting the rocket works
08:59<norbert79>Slow
08:59<Elukka>it looks like it moves on two sets of rails
08:59<Elukka>http://www.starbase1.co.uk/n1/images/N-1%20Carrier/slides/n1-on-train.jpg
08:59<Elukka>you can see the locomotives there
08:59<norbert79>Yeah, I do
09:00<norbert79>1 wouldn't be able transporting it
09:00<norbert79>I guess it's siimilar to when moving a house
09:00<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/Booster_N1_3.jpg
09:00<Elukka>shame the rocket never worked...
09:01<norbert79>I feel pity for the Soviet Buran
09:01<norbert79>where the Space Shuttle was successful, Buran never flew
09:01<Elukka>i'm more sorry for the energia (buran's carrier rocket)
09:01<norbert79>despite it had some better ideas
09:01<Elukka>shuttles were always a bad idea
09:01<norbert79>you can keep that
09:01<norbert79>I am for the Buran :)
09:01<Elukka>buran was just a better engineered bad idea
09:01<norbert79>I disagree
09:02<Elukka>but still a bad idea
09:02<norbert79>since it flew well
09:02<norbert79>well, Buran or the Shuttle is still better, than rockets
09:02<Elukka>sure, it flew well, but shuttles have serious cost and safety issues
09:02<Elukka>it isn't
09:02<norbert79>it gives you much more possibilties
09:02<Elukka>like what?
09:02<norbert79>Moving things
09:02<norbert79>repair
09:02<norbert79>Without the Shuttle Hubble would be busted fast
09:03<Elukka>because it was specifically built to be maintained by the shuttle
09:03<Elukka>no reason a capsule couldn't do it were it designed so
09:03<norbert79>like having no arms to hold things? :)
09:04<Elukka>it could dock into it were a docking port provided
09:04<norbert79>Ok, the method what 2001 Space Odessay had could be a solution
09:04<norbert79>yeah, right
09:04<norbert79>I liked the Pod idea
09:04<norbert79>And what do you think about the last Enterprise?
09:05<norbert79>Looks promising
09:05<Elukka>the only reason the buran was built was because some soviet higher ups who knew nothing about spacecraft thought the american shuttle could be some kind of nuclear bomber and wanted a vehicle with similar capabilities made
09:05<Elukka>now the rocket engineers knew how ludicrous that was, and likely also knew that a shuttle wasn't such a great idea
09:05<Elukka>so they built the carrier rocket so that it didn't have to fly with buran
09:05<Elukka>it could loft any payload
09:05<norbert79>Elukka: The Buran's plans were started where the cold war was pretty intensse
09:06<Elukka>yes
09:06<norbert79>well, the soviet planes have never been designed for high end, but for reliability, they always solved such issues having much stronger engines
09:06<norbert79>Take a look at Su-27 for example
09:06<Elukka>what's that got to do with anything?
09:06<norbert79>the similar idea was used for the Buran too
09:07<norbert79>it's a bit heavier, who cares, lets put a bigger rocket below it
09:07<Elukka>the buran didn't even carry engines besides small maneuvering thrusters, though
09:07<Elukka>and the carrier rocket used more efficient liquid rockets in comparison to the american one
09:07<norbert79>See? Still better then :D
09:07<norbert79>Anyway, what do you think about recent Enterprise?
09:08<norbert79>Virgin's
09:08<Elukka>well it's not a spacecraft
09:08<Elukka>it's a high altitude airplane
09:08<norbert79>Well, the U-2 was same, yet very close to the top
09:08<Elukka>not anywhere close to orbit
09:08<@Belugas>hello
09:08<norbert79>Hi Belugas
09:08<Elukka>either U-2 or anything virgin does
09:09<Elukka>the main problem with reaching orbit isn't altitude, it's comparatively easy to do that
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09:09<norbert79>Elukka: Sure, but the first Enterprise Shuttle didn't leave to the orbit neither :)
09:09<Elukka>the real challenge is gaining the required 8 km/s velocity
09:09<@Belugas>sir norbert79 :)
09:10<norbert79>sir Belugas :)
09:10<Elukka>but the shuttle was always designed to be an orbital vehicle..
09:10<norbert79>Elukka: I know, but still it would be nice if they still could manage it
09:10<Elukka>yeah but they won't :P
09:10<Elukka>it's not what they're trying to do currently
09:10<norbert79>well, something must replace the shuttles...
09:10<norbert79>rockets are nice, but a 50 years old technology
09:10<norbert79>and very limited use
09:11<Elukka>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falcon_9
09:11<Elukka>here's the replacement
09:11<Elukka>spaceplanes are not inherently better or more advanced, they just look prettier
09:11<norbert79>back to the roots...
09:11<Elukka>in all our experience so far they're worse
09:12<norbert79>Guess Elite 2 style of spaceflying is still just a dream, and will stay so for the next 50 years then
09:12<Elukka>and if virgin were to try orbital spaceflight, they'd have to design a whole new vehicle from scratch
09:12<Elukka>anything they've done so far is simply not built for it
09:12<Eddi|zuHause><Elukka> which also look way too modern for the 30's <-- streamlining was "in" in the late 30's
09:13<Elukka>yes, norbert, but not because of rockets
09:14<norbert79>Well, if we look at this this way, the US still using the same old thinking, like what they gathered after 1945... It's like getting stuck with the same idea :)
09:14<Elukka>the shuttle was not a revolutionary advancement in spaceflight, it was a sidestep to a nasty, murky bog
09:14<Elukka>in which nasa has been stuck for the past three decades
09:14<norbert79>Falcon 9 is not reusable neither, the space shuttles were at least
09:14<norbert79>not that they would have done that way, but money was only spent for that only
09:14<Elukka>falcon 9 is designed to be fully reusable
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: the "reusable" parts of a shuttle are like 15-20%
09:15<Elukka>well the shuttle does reuse the orbiter itself and the solid booster casings
09:15<norbert79>Elukka: Well, according to the page you shared it shows totally the opposite
09:15<Elukka>this is where we realize that reusability isn't necessarily cheaper than building new components...
09:15<Elukka>the current version of falcon 9 is not reusable, but the vehicle is designed with reusability in mind and they're working on that
09:16<@Terkhen>designed for future features :)
09:16<norbert79>lol
09:16<norbert79>Sounds like Windows Vista :))
09:16<Elukka>it's also easier to make a two stage rocket reusable than it is to make a spaceplane reusable
09:17<Elukka>because the bulk of the rocket consists of the first stage, and it never reaches orbital speed or altitude
09:17<Elukka>so it experiences much milder reentry heating
09:17<norbert79>I think the focus should be on new engines... Rockets is way more the sidestep for me, than the shuttles...
09:17<norbert79>and yes, reentry is a huge problem
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: shuttles did not reach the intended 90 starts per year, so they were a failure
09:18<Elukka>there are basically two kinds of new engines that are possible
09:18<Elukka>airbreathing engines, which are of questionable use... most likely not worth it
09:18<Eddi|zuHause>(that'd be twice a week)
09:18<Elukka>and nuclear engines which have their own issues
09:18<norbert79>Eddi|zuHause: 90 was never really possible in my opinion, I don't know how has set that stupid limit
09:19<Elukka>what's wrong with rocket engines, anyhow?
09:19<norbert79>it's way outdated
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: well if you want any sensible commercial activity, it must come to such high frequencies eventually
09:19<@Terkhen>we should build a space elevator
09:19<Elukka>that's like saying "bullets are outdated"
09:19<Elukka>or wheels
09:19<norbert79>Terkhen: Yeah, have seen those ideas... And against what would you fix that? Against the moon? :))
09:20<norbert79>Elukka: Apples against grapes :)
09:20<@Terkhen>they are, I want my lasers and floating cars
09:20<Elukka>but they're not outdated
09:20<@Terkhen>norbert79: a counter weight IIRC
09:20<Elukka>here's spacex's eventual plan for the falcon 9
09:20<Elukka>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p176UpWQOs4
09:20<dihedral>can you not use fruit that does not highlight me?
09:20<norbert79>Using rockets for space-exploration mission is just a way saying: sorry, we failed to imporve what we could gather from the Germans in 1945
09:21<Elukka>sorry but that's just wrong
09:21<norbert79>dihedral: Avocado?
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: obviously the end of the space elevator needs to be a point in geostationary orbit
09:21<Elukka>rockets work, they are simple, they have the capability of being cheap if enough are being built and launched
09:21<Elukka>what's wrong with them?
09:22<@Terkhen>they are not cool anymore
09:22<norbert79>reusability, flexiblity
09:22<Elukka>they can be made reusable
09:22<@Terkhen>and they are expensive :P
09:22<Elukka>indeed they are easier to make reusable than a shuttle
09:22<Elukka>not sure what you mean by flexibility
09:23<norbert79>Basically you have no control on the reentry, almost nothing, shuttles could at least fly like airplanes
09:23<norbert79>for example
09:24<Elukka>why's that particularly important?
09:24<Elukka>it's perfectly possible to precision land on a small pad with a capsule
09:24<norbert79>well, it sucks landing in the ocean, if something occurs :)
09:24<Elukka>soyuz has been landing on land for the past four decades
09:24<norbert79>not possible to make corrective maneuvers
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>there's not much ocean in kasachstan :p
09:25<norbert79>I think I am really familiar with russian space exploration, we had to learn them in elementary school back then :)
09:25<Elukka>and just to illustrate how wasteful the shuttle is...
09:25<Elukka>the shuttle stack could either launch 20 tonnes of payload and a shuttle
09:25<Elukka>or it could just launch 100 tonnes of payload
09:25<Elukka>the former is also more costly
09:25<Elukka>why pick that option?
09:26<norbert79>ok, how much can a rocket launch with crew? :)
09:26<Elukka>depends on how large you want to make the rocket
09:26<Elukka>soyuz launches 3 people, spacex dragon launches 7
09:27<@planetmaker>for certain definitions of 'launches'
09:27<norbert79>see? So it's basically much more expensive, since you have to design the rocket based on the payload, and not the opposite
09:27<Elukka>what?
09:27<__ln__>@seen Celestar
09:27<@DorpsGek>__ln__: Celestar was last seen in #openttd 39 weeks, 0 days, 4 hours, 10 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <Celestar> hahah
09:27<Elukka>you have to design a spaceplane based on the payloads it will fly just the same
09:27<@planetmaker>you can buy it. But you'll not get a 100% promise of delivery ;-)
09:27<norbert79>:)
09:28<norbert79>Like with the ESA
09:28<Elukka>also, a falcon 9 with dragon costs about $60 million to launch
09:28<@planetmaker>norbert79: rockets are not designed 'based on payload' in a more detailed level than cars 'designed based on payload'
09:28<Elukka>a space shuttle... perhaps $750 million
09:28<Elukka>amusingly falcon 9 cost less to design from scratch than a shuttle costs to launch once
09:29<norbert79>Elukka: I would also count the design, acceptence costs and administartive costs to that, it will sure end up much more, than 60 :)
09:29<Elukka>you could go ahead and make a contract with them for that price
09:29<Elukka>and it would actually be launched
09:29<Elukka>for that price
09:30<Elukka>they publish prices for customers on their website
09:30<Elukka>http://www.spacex.com/falcon9.php
09:30<Elukka>$54-59.5 million
09:30<norbert79>Yes, the plain launch cost
09:30<Elukka>of course that includes profits, so the actual costs are less than that
09:30<norbert79>not the other costs included
09:30<@planetmaker>which other, norbert79?
09:31<norbert79>if a payload needs the modification of the rocket for example
09:31<Elukka>um, that has all costs and profit for the company included
09:31<Elukka>"Custom fairings are available at incremental cost."
09:31<@peter1138>anyone good with mobile phones?
09:31<@planetmaker>norbert79: you won't simply get that
09:31<@planetmaker>and a custom-car also costs custom amounts of money.
09:31<@planetmaker>I see no issue there
09:32<norbert79>you never do with anything normally :P
09:32<@planetmaker>as basically all satellites can be launched by off-the-shelf rockets
09:32<Elukka>it's not that a specific payload needs a different rocket
09:32<Elukka>this is basically the same that a car is designed for a max payload of 5 people
09:32<@planetmaker>yup
09:32<norbert79>Elukka: One example: goverment sats
09:33<Elukka>what special modification would they require?
09:33<norbert79>that needs additional costs and admin work
09:33<norbert79>No idea, I have never worked for them :)
09:33<norbert79>but considering how such work
09:33<norbert79>I can imagine lots of things
09:33<Elukka>um. they provide launch services and rockets, they don't build the satellites
09:33<Elukka>that's up to the customer
09:33<norbert79>sure, but that comes with the final expenses
09:33<@planetmaker>yeah. They're nothing special. Just another satellite
09:34<@planetmaker>norbert79: that's not transport costs
09:34*Belugas is good at dialing wth mobile phone, peter1138. as well as listening to music, but that's pretty much it ;)
09:34<@planetmaker>hehe @ Belugas and also hello @ Belugas
09:34<@Belugas>speaking of music... time to load JudasPriest
09:34<@Belugas>hello sir planetmaker :)
09:35<Elukka>i'm still not sure how these mysterious extra costs apply to rockets but not spaceplanes
09:35<@planetmaker>norbert79: you can simply face it: but rockets are not build specifically for a payload but the other way around
09:35<Elukka>a spaceplane is simply a rocket with wings, landing gear and other unneeded crap :P
09:36<Elukka>yeah rockets are simply built to loft a certain amount of mass into orbit
09:36<norbert79>planetmaker: With not much of use really
09:36<Elukka>the rocket doesn't care if that mass is a weather satellite, a top secret spy sat, or a bunch of astronauts
09:36<@planetmaker>yeah
09:37<@planetmaker>norbert79: you've never filled out any spec requirement forms for rocket lifts, did you?
09:37<@planetmaker>and spec conformance filesß
09:37<@peter1138>hmm
09:37<norbert79>planetmaker: Tell me just one thing rockets can do, for which Space Shuttles were not capable of...
09:37<Elukka>and if your payload masses too much, you buy a bigger rocket
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09:37<@planetmaker>a space shuttle is just a rocket...
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09:38<@planetmaker>basically the space shuttle was payload for a rocket
09:38<@peter1138>bah
09:38<Elukka>yeah
09:38<@planetmaker>it only happend to be a quite powerful 3rd stage
09:38<Elukka>that itself carries a smaller payload
09:38<@peter1138>xperia mini pro looks quite nice but apparently the battery only lasts a day, if you're lucky
09:38<norbert79>So was the Me-163 too, still was used as a fighter
09:38<@planetmaker>norbert79: the space shuttle had about the aerodynamics of a brick!
09:38<Elukka>norbert: tell me one significant thing shuttles can do that rockets can't
09:39<norbert79>planetmaker: Well, I wish my brick would fly that smooth :)
09:39<norbert79>Elukka: In space maintenance, and repair
09:39<@planetmaker>wrong
09:39<Elukka>the russians have been happily assembling space station sections in space without any shuttles
09:39<Elukka>and maintaining that station too
09:39<@planetmaker>sojus do that happily longer than the space shuttle exists
09:40<norbert79>Elukka: I wouldn't really compare the ISS with the MIR (RIP)
09:40<Elukka>did you know the core modules of the ISS were launched with russian proton rockets?
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: what's the difference between ISS and MIR?
09:41<norbert79>Elukka: Well, if you will come aware of any missions, which would involve in-sapce maintenance of something in space and not on ISS using rockets, tell me
09:41<Eddi|zuHause>norbert79: ISS has been partially assembled and supplied by soyus capsules as well
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09:41<Elukka>well it's the progress freighters (which are a variant of soyuz) that supply it and proton rockets that build it
09:42<Pinkbeast>For some reason this is all reminding me of the OTTD+500 nut
09:42<Elukka>norbert: there currently isn't anything in space besides the ISS that needs or is built for maintenance
09:42<Elukka>oh, sorry, there's tiangong now
09:43<@planetmaker>hm, is there already hayabusa2?
09:44<Elukka>don't think so
09:44<Elukka>the shuttle is funny in that it's really built upside down
09:44<@planetmaker>no
09:44<@planetmaker>there is not yet
09:44<Elukka>it carries a massively bloated reusable upper stage that uses up 75% of the vehicle's payload
09:45<Elukka>while normally upper stages are light and cheap
09:45<@planetmaker>launch 2014
09:45<Elukka>it'd really make sense to make a reusable first stage than an upper stage
09:45<Pinkbeast>Also it's a bit twisted by the requirements of the Cold War...
09:45<Elukka>heh, yeah
09:46<Elukka>built to do everything, does everything... at a humongous cost
09:46<norbert79>Elukka: Makes sense, but you forget, that all, what must be used in space must stay with on top.. No wonmder on the 75% then
09:46<Elukka>what's used in space is generally called 'the payload'
09:46<@planetmaker>^
09:50<norbert79>Yet this fact still doesn't make rockets more advanced for me...
09:51<norbert79>If you want to do more, you will need something like the Saturn 5 :)
09:54<Elukka>something of its size, yes
09:55<Elukka>it'd be convenient though not absolutely necessary for space station building, lunar and mars missions, stuff like that
09:55<@planetmaker>you need an elevator ;-)
09:55<norbert79>lol
09:56<Elukka>i'm not that convinced elevators are a plausible near term solution
09:56<@planetmaker>it's less 'lol' than one might think
09:56<@planetmaker>but not near-term indeed
09:56<Elukka>there's also non obvious issues when one falls down to earth
09:56<@planetmaker>it misses about a factor of 10 in tensile strength
09:56<norbert79>Elukka: Just wanted to mention
09:56<Elukka>it'll break down in the atmosphere... and now you have potentially very harmful carbon nanotube dust in everyone's lungs
09:56<norbert79>Elukka: I wouldn't be happy having one huge piece of metal in my room
09:57<norbert79>Elukka: that too
09:57<@planetmaker>you didn't read the novel 'foundations of paradise'?
09:57<@Terkhen>only 10? I thought it was at least 100 or 1000 :)
09:58<Elukka>i think some reasonable study ended with the conclusion that space elevators used on the scale of the space launch market today would end up with similar costs as rockets currently
09:58<Elukka>in terms of $/kg to orbit
09:58<@planetmaker>iirc you can currently get near the factor of 10
09:58<@peter1138>let's remove 32bpp support
09:58<@peter1138>nobody uses it, it's just cruft that bloats ottd
09:58<Pinkbeast>If you're lucky it'll break down in the atmosphere, if not it wraps itself around the Equator like a very strongly worded note from the Grim Reaper "to whom it may concern"
09:59<Eddi|zuHause>are there actual studies on what forces are put onto a space elevator located on the equator?
09:59<Elukka>it's not really a concern that it'd wrap around the earth and physically break things
09:59<Elukka>it'd break up into a fine dust on reentry
09:59<@Terkhen>peter1138: maybe that's what is needed to get a reaction from the people that use it :P
09:59<Pinkbeast>Elukka> Depends (obviously) on what it is made of.
10:00<Elukka>well carbon nanotubes would do that, and they're pretty much the strongest theoretical substance and the only one that would work
10:00<Pinkbeast>Eddi> Yes, that's a simple sum if you know the strength/mass ratio and desired safety margin
10:00<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: sure, those exist
10:00<@peter1138>Terkhen, shh ;)
10:01<@Terkhen>:D
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>Pinkbeast: i don't think "simple sum" quite cuts it
10:01<@peter1138>although those osx users...
10:01<@planetmaker>:-D
10:01<@Terkhen>yeah, it worked back then, let's do the same for 32bpp
10:02<@planetmaker>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator <-- even on the wiki, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
10:02<@Terkhen>I read about space elevators first on an ancient physics book
10:03<@Terkhen>it even says "printed in the soviet union, 197?" or something like that
10:03<Pinkbeast>I was reading some early Charles Sheffield SF about them which is very odd these days because he has to start each book by expositing what one is.
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10:10<Korenn>hm. I've got egrvts 1.4 on trunk, but I have no road vehicles available...
10:10<Pinkbeast>What year is it?
10:12<Korenn>1900
10:12<Korenn>I guess it might be clashing with another grf. I'll try turning some off
10:13<@Terkhen>let's make a space elevator NewGRF
10:13<Korenn>hm
10:13<Korenn>even on its own
10:13*Terkhen tests
10:14<Korenn>oh, hang on
10:14<Korenn>it may be an ancient version, by accident
10:14*Korenn redownloads
10:15<Korenn>it was grvts instead of eGRVTS
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10:21<Korenn>bah, now it's av8 that's refusing to work
10:21<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: what i imagine to be a big problem, besides holding the structure in place, is the power generated by lowering the cabin, which would normally be the reentry heat.
10:22<@planetmaker>Korenn: the author thinks that you need to set a parameter when you use the default 'enable multiple engine sets'
10:23<Elukka>it need not have much reentry heating
10:23<Elukka>wait yes it will
10:23<Elukka>it does go down slow, but it still has huge lateral velocity..
10:24<Elukka>i wager it's manageable, just takes more mass
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: normally the lateral velocity increases on descent, but the cable will prevent that, issuing large lateral force on the cable
10:24<Korenn>planetmaker: ah, so it's my stupidity. that figures! :)
10:25<Elukka>the galileo probe survived a 250 g deceleration on jupiter reentry, intact
10:25<@planetmaker>not yours. IMHO requiring that parameter is stupid.
10:25<Korenn>hmmmm no
10:25<Korenn>still no planes
10:25<@planetmaker>it should work with and without that adv. setting
10:25<@planetmaker>in 1900?
10:25<Korenn>yeah
10:25<Elukka>i think space elevators are probably more useful on planets/moons smaller than earth
10:25<@planetmaker>I doubt there are any by that time, Korenn ;-)
10:25<Korenn>bah
10:25<Korenn>humbug :P
10:25*Korenn sets time to 1915
10:26<Korenn>and planes.
10:26<Korenn>:P
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>1900-ish could be some early zeppelins
10:27<Korenn>no, first one is 1911, apparently
10:27<Elukka>i wish we'd still build zeppelins in real life
10:27<Elukka>not sure of practical use, but dammit they're cool
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>they tried that
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>google for cargo lifter
10:29<Korenn>people still do
10:29<Korenn>yeah
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>but that kinda monstrously failed :p
10:29<Korenn>and promotional blimps, ofcourse
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>blimps are no zeppelins
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>blimps are zeppelin-shaped balloons
10:33<Elukka>yeah i mean good old fashioned huge explodey zeppelins
10:33<Elukka>without the explosions
10:34<Korenn>problem is that with helium the lift is just too low
10:34<Korenn>needs hydrogen to get the proper lift to carry stuff.
10:34<@Terkhen>use them in an atmosphere without oxygen
10:35<Elukka>they would work marvelously on venus :P
10:35<Elukka>my guess is hydrogen could be manageable today
10:35<Eddi|zuHause>in sulphuric acid atmosphere? :p
10:36<Elukka>it's mostly just co2
10:36<@Terkhen>the upper capes of the atmosphere don't have sulphuric acid IIRC
10:36<Elukka>even just normal air is a potent lifting gas there
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: earth's atmosphere is mostly just N2...
10:36<Elukka>well wiki says venus' is 96.5% co2 and 3.5% nitrogen
10:37<Elukka>with other trace gases, of course
10:37<Elukka>venus has a layer with a nice temperature and a nice atmospheric pressure
10:37<Elukka>and air is a lifting gas
10:37<Elukka>are you thinking what i'm thinking?
10:37<Elukka>(i am thinking cloud city)
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but how are we going to get the flamingos green'?
10:38<@Terkhen>I read about cloud cities in venus in a futuristic RPG setting already :P
10:39<Elukka>i think it's geoffrey landis who came up with the idea
10:39<Elukka>or at least refined it
10:39<Prof_Frink>Cloudbase!
10:39<Elukka>also, while the gas giants are wholly inconvenient places to live on (in?)
10:39<Elukka>i discovered that parts of saturn are surprisingly non-terrible
10:40<Elukka>if you go down a few hundred kilometers you'll get 20 c temperatures, a... well, not a nice atmospheric pressure, but less than what submarines have to endure
10:40<Elukka>and the gravity is very near 1 g
10:40<APTX>during some weekend trip?
10:41<Elukka>basically
10:41<Elukka>it's not at all an useful place, unless you're mining helium-3
10:42<Korenn>Elukka: you mean Lando? :P
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10:44<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Art%20and%20stuff/Aerostats.png
10:44<Elukka>i drew that once, based on some NASA design for he-3 harvesters
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11:06<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: gravity is fairly irrelevant if you're not on a solid surface
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>if you're in an orbit, you are weightless, no matter what gravity
11:08<@planetmaker>mind the gravity gradient
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11:09<Korenn>Eddi|zuHause: wut? by that logic, you'd stay in the air if you jump
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>Korenn: what makes you think jumping up makes you enter an orbit?
11:10<Korenn>Oh, orbit. But he wasn't talking about orbits
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>well... i don't know any sensible way to float in a He-3 atmosphere, so the only other option would be aerodynamics, which i have trouble imagining
11:23<Elukka>there are asteroids where you could reach orbit by jumping :P
11:24<Elukka>it's still much easier to build a space elevator for a smaller body
11:24<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: depends on the density of the He-3, though I'd imagine a vacuum would do the trick ;)
11:24<Elukka>less gravity, shorter, much less tensile strength required
11:24<Elukka>oh we weren't talking about space elevators anymore
11:24<Elukka>or were we?
11:25<Elukka>in a gas giant's atmosphere gravity is very relevant cause you're not on orbit
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11:54<Eddi|zuHause>might it be possible to teach towns to build houses adjacent to bridge heads, like they would on normal roads?
12:07<@Terkhen>maybe
12:08<@Terkhen>IIRC they check for MP_ROAD
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12:14<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: don't towns typically build bridges over water, so the square adjacent to bridge head is usually a coast square?
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: towns build houses on coast squares
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12:15<b_jonas>hmm, that's true
12:16<b_jonas>could I abuse that? towns seem so permissive about removing houses (as opposed to about building stations) that it could be cheaper to destroy such a house than to destroy a coast square
12:16<b_jonas>ah no
12:17<b_jonas>apparently it's not _clearing_ a coast square that's expensive
12:17<b_jonas>but building the terrace
12:17<b_jonas>and I don't think I can reuse the terrace a town has built
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12:37<@Terkhen>b_jonas: now towns also build bridges over rivers/canals
12:38<b_jonas>Terkhen: I see
12:39<b_jonas>but they don't build bridges over, say, diagonal railway tracks, right?
12:39<b_jonas>that's my responsibility
12:40<@planetmaker>I guess they don't. Indeed
12:41<Eddi|zuHause>but even next to manual bridges, they should build houses
12:42<b_jonas>yep
12:42<b_jonas>I guess
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12:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23029 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp strings.cpp): -Fix: [NewGRF] support for cases in strings was broken
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13:23<Wolf01>hello
13:25<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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14:06<Eddi|zuHause>"if (DistanceFromEdge(tile) == 0) return false;" <-- wouldn't it be easier to check for MP_VOID?
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>(or am i reading this check wrong?)
14:07<@planetmaker>void tiles are not on all borders
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14:10<@SmatZ>at least with "build at map edges" patch disabled
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, but on those other borders there are water tiles
14:10<@SmatZ>Eddi|zuHause: there can be buoy or oil rig tiles as well
14:10<@SmatZ>(if that matters in that case)
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>this is town growth code, and i assume it will bail out way before that
14:15<@Alberth>you can have land at the borders too
14:15<andythenorth>hola
14:15<@Alberth>hi andy
14:15*andythenorth has had less ttd time recently
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: no, that has certainly never been possible
14:17<@Alberth>sure? you can generate a map without water, and void tiles are not at all borders (as pm already said)
14:17<@planetmaker>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/645/ <-- I seem to miss something... as I regardless of height and snowline get the last version (i.e. the non-snowy version)
14:18<Rubidium>Alberth: either there is MP_VOID or there is MP_WATER at x = 0 or y = 0
14:18<Rubidium>at the southern edge it is always MP_VOID
14:18<Rubidium>(where I said MP_WATER I might mean "watery tile")
14:19<@Alberth>ah, I understand now
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: when land map edges are allowed, there is an additional row of void tiles
14:20<@Alberth>that will need to be the case, otherwise the statement by rb fails :)
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14:21<@Alberth>although I have so far failed to understand why this difficult construct, just void tiles around all edges surely would be easier
14:22<@Alberth>evenink frosch
14:22<Rubidium>Alberth: hysterical raisins
14:22<@Alberth>as in, the original game did do it this way? wow
14:22<Rubidium>yep
14:23<Rubidium>it had water at the edges, which is always at level 0
14:23<Rubidium>and the void at the bottom is so the water tiles can determine their slope easily
14:23<@SmatZ>it just wrapped around from 0 to 255, where it found MP_VOID :)
14:23<andythenorth>yay
14:23<@Alberth>and void tiles prevented ships getting routed from one edge to the opposite one :)
14:23<andythenorth>more FIRS translations
14:24<frosch123>though i wonder whether it also wrapped around from 0 to 65535 to find void
14:24<frosch123>evening everyone :)
14:24<Rubidium>as it needs the tile at +(0,1) +(1,0) and +(1,1) to determine the slope
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14:24<@SmatZ>hello frosch123 :)
14:27<@Terkhen>hi frosch123
14:27<@planetmaker>hi frosch123
14:29*andythenorth ponderises
14:32<andythenorth>time for more boats?
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>19th century sailboats!
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>hm... i don't get the town growth code...
14:39<@Terkhen>it is a huge mess IIRC :P
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14:48-!-Lakie` is now known as Lakie
14:51*Rubidium pokes dihedral with FS#4796, FS#4803 and FS#4804. I hope it doesn't hurt too much ;)
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15:00<Eddi|zuHause>how annoying would it be to have DorpsGek react on every "FS#xyz" with the appropriate link?
15:01<frosch123>@fs 4796
15:01<@DorpsGek>frosch123: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4796
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yeah, that kinda defeats the point :p
15:02<frosch123>@fs 4796 dihedral
15:02<@DorpsGek>frosch123: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4796 dihedral
15:02<@planetmaker>:-)
15:02<frosch123>hmm, it appends it at the end :o
15:02<frosch123>@fs dihedral 4796
15:02<@DorpsGek>frosch123: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/dihedral 4796
15:02<@planetmaker>the pointy stick gets sharper, eh? :-)
15:02<@planetmaker>loool :-)
15:02<frosch123>oh, so simple
15:03<frosch123>it just puts the http stuff to the front :p
15:03<frosch123>i hoped it would do something smart :p
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>yay for input validation :p
15:06<@DorpsGek>@fs 4796
15:06<frosch123>hmm, he does not talking with himself :p
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>scripts like that usually don't work on outgoing text
15:07<frosch123>also might be bad when using the command to talk :p
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15:23*andythenorth is watching British train videos
15:23<andythenorth>british trains are so crappy
15:23<andythenorth>except IC125
15:25<supermop_>125s are amazing pieces of product design
15:25<supermop_>also partial to 158s but I know I won't find too many confederates there
15:26-!-Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has quit []
15:28<andythenorth>supermop_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Grange
15:29<supermop_>yeah pentagram is sweet
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15:37<supermop_>platner was also part of that i think
15:38<supermop_>good 20th C british design
15:43*andythenorth needs to nom nom something
15:45<supermop_>cornish yarg
15:45<supermop_>english cheese is the best cheese, and yarg is the best english cheese
15:45<andythenorth>hmm
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16:09<supermop_>i wonder why more prolific industrial designers have not taken up train design
16:09<supermop_>i would like to see a naoto fukusawa shinkansen
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16:14<Lachie>supermop_: being good at one doesn't necessarily mean being good at another, really. Both can be damned hard if you're only used to the other
16:16<supermop_>true
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17:06<@Terkhen>good night
17:07<andythenorth>bye Terkhen
17:08<andythenorth>hmm
17:08<andythenorth>sometimes it's quiet
17:08<andythenorth>sometimes that means stuff is being worked on
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17:13<V453000>sometimes it means it is friday pub night :P
17:17<andythenorth>hmm
17:17<andythenorth>the design of small sea-going coasters didn't change much since the 1900s
17:18<andythenorth>less to draw for me :P
17:20<V453000>what is a sea-going coaster?
17:20<V453000>I guess some ship, but .. :)
17:21<andythenorth>it's a small ship that goes to sea...near the coast :)
17:21<andythenorth>might be an oxymoron :)
17:21<V453000>:)
17:23<@planetmaker>good night
17:23*andythenorth is plotting to fix the 'FISH has all ships same since 1870'
17:23<andythenorth>:)
17:23<andythenorth>good night planetmaker
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17:28<V453000>gn
17:30<Wolf01>'night
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18:02<uktab>Hello
18:03<frosch123>hello saturday
18:04<uktab>Can anybody help me find a 'missing' graphics set please. I downloaded openttd and copied files to the data folder (I have Linux mint) but when I type openttd it says 'Failed to find a graphics set' :(
18:04<frosch123>install opengfx
18:04<frosch123>it might be in your package manager
18:05<frosch123>what files did you copy to which data folder?
18:05<uktab>Ah ha - I dl'd all the 'open' packages but mite have forgot to install them... duh!
18:06<uktab>I got Opengfx-0.3.7 and openmsx-0.3.1-source then opensfx-0.2.3-source
18:06<uktab>All that's inside are grf fis etc.
18:06<uktab>files
18:06<frosch123>do you want to build from source?
18:06<uktab>Is that better?
18:07<frosch123>no :)
18:07<uktab>Lol
18:07<frosch123>but you said you downloaded the source
18:07-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:07<uktab>The files I was told to download had the words 'source' in them ?
18:09<frosch123>anyway, you need some ogfx*.grf and openttd.obg
18:09<frosch123>put them in ~/.openttd/data
18:09<frosch123>s/openttd.obg/sopengfx.obg/
18:10<uktab>There were .grf files in the opengfx folder which I copied to that data folder
18:11<frosch123>next put the .cat and .obs of opensfx also in that folder
18:11<frosch123>then start openttd --help and expect it to list the base sets
18:12<uktab>Ok - In the data folder are lots of ogfx*.grf files but in the original folder I got themfrom there is no *.cat file
18:13<frosch123>.cat is opensfx, not gfx
18:13<uktab>I copied everything from all 3 folders to the data folder, but no cat file
18:13<frosch123>opensfx.cat and opensfx.obs
18:13<frosch123>well, you said above that you downloaded the source of opensfx
18:13<frosch123>download the real thing
18:14<frosch123>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/opensfx/releases/0.2.3/ <- the zip from there
18:14<uktab>Thanks - didn't realise there were more than 1 version. Only started using linux yesterday.
18:15<@Yexo>frosch123: perhaps better link? http://www.openttd.org/en/download-opensfx
18:15<@Yexo>ultimately it's the same file though
18:15<frosch123>yeah, i never remember what is hosted where :)
18:16<frosch123>after all you only need to install it manually once
18:16<frosch123>updates are easier :)
18:16<@Yexo>openttd has mirrors of all basesets
18:16<@Yexo>and different stuff too like http://www.openttd.org/en/download-grfcodec
18:16<uktab>Thanx for being patient. I used to use DOS so Linux looks familiar, except the commands are new to me
18:17<uktab>I got the zip thanx. Shall I extract it straight to the data folder?
18:18<@Yexo>it's easiest to ignore it completely, just make sure you have opengfx
18:18<@Yexo>than you should be able to start the game and download the other ones in there
18:18<@Yexo>if you want to install it manually: opensfx goes in the data folder, openmsx in the gm/ folder
18:19<frosch123>you need to install opensfx manually
18:19<frosch123>msx can be downloaded ingame
18:19<frosch123>or do we bundle nosounds?
18:19<@Yexo>isn't nosound bundled with openttd?
18:19-!-KenjiE20 [~Kenji@host-92-8-77-176.as43234.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:19<frosch123>not that i am aware of :s
18:19<uktab>It says I don't have permission to extract archives in the folder :(
18:20<@Yexo>which folder are you trying to extract it in?
18:20<uktab>gm
18:20<@Yexo>no_sound.obs in the the repo
18:20<@Yexo>gm is for openmsx, but where is that?
18:20<@Yexo>should be ~/.openttd/gm/
18:20<uktab>sorry - wrong folder!
18:21<frosch123>allright, if nosound.obs is bundled... uktab: you should be able to start ottd now
18:21<frosch123>if opengfx is installed you can get the rest easier in game
18:22<uktab>You said to download opensfx? I need to download opengfx now?
18:23<frosch123>when you copied those grf and the obg you installed opengfx
18:24<frosch123>you can get opensfx and openmsx also ingame
18:24<frosch123>try "openttd" now :)
18:24<uktab>Ok thanx. Will try.
18:24<uktab>failed to find a graphics set. See section 4.1 of readme.txt
18:25<uktab>will re-download opngfx from bundles site
18:25<frosch123>what version of openttd did you download btw?
18:25-!-pjpe [ade6a119@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
18:25<uktab>I'll check
18:26<uktab>1.1.3-inux-ubuntu-natty-i386.deb
18:26-!-Progman [~progman@p57A1AB4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd
18:26<uktab>closest to Mint I could finf
18:26<uktab>find
18:26<frosch123>ok, well, then it should work...
18:27<uktab>I'll get the opengfx now
18:27<frosch123>does "openttd --help" mention any trace of opengfx?
18:27<uktab>Wish linux had drag n drop ;)
18:27<uktab>I'll check
18:28<@Yexo>http://binaries.openttd.org/extra/opengfx/0.3.7/opengfx-0.3.7-all.zip <- get this zip, extra in ~/.openttd/data/ and you're good to go
18:28<uktab>thnx Yexo!
18:29<uktab>@froschl32 : no mention at all. It says 5 missing graphics sets
18:32-!-Lakie` is now known as Lakie
18:32<uktab>@Yexo - that's the zip I already dl'd. This time I extract to which folder? Data?
18:32<@Yexo>~/.openttd/data/
18:33<uktab>K - will do now
18:33<@Yexo>~ is short for your home directory, note the dot in ".openttd"
18:34<uktab>When I click 'extract' and navigate to 'games' - You don't have the right permissions..."
18:35<uktab>(data folder)
18:35<@Yexo>who said you had to navigate to "games"?
18:36<@Yexo>you navigate to your home folder (which is ~), than into ".openttd" (with the dot, you might ahve to turn on "view hidden files"), than into "data"
18:36<uktab>\share\games\openttd\data
18:36<@Yexo>create those if they don't exist yet
18:36<@Yexo>that is a global directory, you need root privileges to write there
18:36<uktab>I'll go back to the ~
18:37<uktab>I clicked the 'home' icon in the Extract manager
18:37<uktab>There's no .openttd
18:38<uktab>soIcreate one?
18:38<@Yexo>yes
18:38<uktab>k thanks
18:38<uktab>The folder could not b created
18:38<uktab>Permissin denied
18:39<uktab>I need to sudo right?
18:39<@Yexo>you shouldn't have to
18:39<@Yexo>can you open a console window?
18:39<uktab>a terminal?
18:39<@Yexo>yes
18:39<uktab>ok
18:39<@Yexo>first "cd ~"<enter>
18:40<uktab>done
18:40<@Yexo>than "pwd"<enter>, what is the output?
18:40<@Yexo>it should be "/home/<your_user_name>"
18:41<uktab>Yes
18:41<@Yexo>ok, type "mkdir .openttd"<enter>
18:41<uktab>file exists
18:41<uktab>...?
18:41<uktab>lol
18:42<frosch123>did you extract the grf to a file named ".openttd" instead of a directory?
18:42<@Yexo>wait, when you clicked on "home" in extract manager, where did you end up?
18:42<@Yexo>in "/" or in "/home/username" ?
18:43<uktab>The icons at the top were 'home' and in that it said 'nina'
18:43<uktab>(next to that)
18:44<uktab>from left to right - 'type a file name', 'file system', 'home','nina'
18:45<@Yexo>can you navigate to "/home/username/.openttd" ?
18:45<uktab>That folder doesn't show up in the list
18:46<frosch123>that might be hidden, try "cd .openttd" in the console
18:46<uktab>k
18:46<uktab>yep - console lets me in
18:46<uktab>~/.openttd $
18:46<frosch123>and then "cd data"?
18:47<uktab>no such file ordirectory
18:47<@Yexo>so "mkdir data" first
18:47<uktab>k
18:47<uktab>yep - im there
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18:47<@Yexo>where is opengfx zip file?
18:47<uktab>in 'Downloads'
18:48<@Yexo>ok
18:48<@Yexo>so now do "mv ~/Downloads/opengfx-0.3.7-all.zip ."
18:48<uktab>from inside 'data' folder
18:48<@Yexo>yes
18:48<uktab>k
18:49<@Yexo>after that "unzip opengfx-0.3.7-all.zip"
18:49<@Yexo>after that "openttd"
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18:51<uktab>Opengfx zip isn't there. It's in the temp folder now?
18:52<uktab>haven't moved it yet
18:52<uktab>tmp
18:52<@Yexo>just put every command exactly as I wrote it in the terminal
18:53<uktab>I did but I thought it was in Downloads - that's where I tell Firefox to download to, but it wasn't there, it was in 'tmp'so console coudn't find it
18:53-!-Lakie [~Lakie@host81-141-101-55.wlms-broadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:53<@Yexo>than download it again and make sure it's in Downloads now
18:54<@Yexo>did you by chance select "open" instead of "save" in firefox?
18:54<uktab>Yes...
18:54<uktab>!
18:54<uktab>I'll re-download
18:54<@Yexo>firefox will only put it in Downlaods/ if you chose "save"
18:55<uktab>Should have realised from my windows days!
18:55<@Yexo>the safer option is to save a file first, than open it from the downloads folder. That way you know exactly where it is
18:56<uktab>missing file operand - let me scroll back up and see if I missed something
18:57<@Yexo>final dot in the mv command
18:57<uktab>Ah - see it - sorry
18:57<uktab>Done
18:57<uktab>THought ot was a typo
18:57<uktab>it
18:57<@Yexo>it's "mv <file_to_move> <target_directory>"
18:58<@Yexo>a single dot means "current directory"
18:58<uktab>Got it! Thanx. Now I extract?
18:58<@Yexo>yes, that's what the unzip command is for
18:58<@Yexo>"unzip <filename>"
18:58<uktab>Forgot to scroll... had a long day! ;)
18:59<uktab>k - gonna try openttd ...
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19:00<uktab>Whoo! I see graphics!
19:00<frosch123>great :)
19:00<@Yexo>congratz :)
19:00<frosch123>now select "check online content"
19:00<uktab>Thanx froschl32 and yexo :)
19:00<frosch123>and get "opensfx", "openmsx" and "admiralai"
19:01<uktab>and anyone else who helped.
19:01<@Yexo>have fun playing :)
19:01<frosch123>ignore the rest for now
19:01<uktab>k - will do
19:01<@Yexo>and good night to everyone
19:01<frosch123>too much fancy stuff is too confusing in the beginning :)
19:01<uktab>I don't like making Microsft rich but it would be nice to have drag and drop in linux...!
19:02<uktab>Somuch easier!
19:02<frosch123>actually there is drag&drop :)
19:02<uktab>?
19:02<frosch123>no idea what you are using when you do not have it
19:02<uktab>terminal \ console
19:02-!-KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-151-17.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:02<uktab>mv
19:02<uktab>etc.
19:03<frosch123>well, the console is an advancted tool which does not require drag&drop
19:03<frosch123>we only told you to use it, because it is easier to tell you what to type, than where to click
19:03<uktab>Ah - ok
19:04-!-Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit []
19:05<uktab>I just want my sister to be able to play on that linux computer. Her laptop broke and she couldn't afford a Windows machine so I toldher to get a LInux one.
19:06<uktab>I'm trying to get it working before I give it back to her!
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19:08<uktab>Is there a speed control for the game?
19:09<frosch123>there is fast forward and pause
19:09<frosch123>and the change date cheat
19:10<uktab>ok - Sorry - I've never played this b4 but I heard it was good. I remember simcity and theme hospital had speed controls
19:10<uktab>seems as if the days are going up every second!
19:11<frosch123>night
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19:18<Eddi|zuHause>a day is roughly 2.22 seconds
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20:10<uktab>Can anyone tell me if there's a rotate screen button so I can see behind buildings etc. pls?
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20:11<Eddi|zuHause>use the X key to make buildings transparent
20:11<uktab>Thanks Eddi :)
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>(or Ctrl+X to have more settings)
20:12<uktab>Thanks !
20:24<uktab>why do my $ go down by 3 every second?
20:25<uktab>vehicle running costs?
20:27<Eddi|zuHause>something like that, yes. you can get a more detailed report when clicking on the money icon at the top
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20:33<Eddi|zuHause>whoa... another guy who plays this mysterious version 1.1.13
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20:43<uktab>how can I flatten land to make my raiway track go through it ?
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20:56<Eddi|zuHause>with the landscape tool
20:56<Eddi|zuHause>damn, too late
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 15 00:00:41 2011