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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-15

---Logopened Sat Oct 15 00:00:41 2011
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02:40<@planetmaker>moin
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03:01<@Terkhen>good morning
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03:40<Rubidium>Korenn: the town demands win32.zip is in violation with GPL. It misses at least COPYING. You also ship regression which makes little to no sense for the end users
03:43<@Terkhen>use make bundle :)
03:44<@planetmaker>hm... all people notice concurrently :-P
03:44<@Alberth>with interleaving concurrency semantics, yeah :)
03:53-!-Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd
03:54*Arafangion peeks in.
03:55<Arafangion>64x64 maps are difficult.
03:56<@planetmaker>they are
03:56<Arafangion>When one has every cargo transported, it seems there is little point to the game.
03:56<@planetmaker>unless you set running costs to virtually 0
03:56<Arafangion>Oh, no, normal game. :)
03:56<@planetmaker>fund new industries. Grow towns. Transport more
03:56<@planetmaker>improve station rating. Get a score of 1000
03:57<Arafangion>It's just in the year 2260, and my industries are going nuts with the amount of cargo they produce - I can't seem to tranport it all with my trains. :)
03:57<Arafangion>planetmaker: Impossible to get a score of 1000, isn't it? (For these maps)
03:57<@planetmaker>so it's not yet "done" ;-)
03:57<__ln__>fund the Apollo program and colonize the moon.
03:57<__ln__>hmm, might not be possible.
03:57<@planetmaker>I haven't played for the score on 64**2 admittedly
03:57<Rubidium>it's not impossible
03:57<@planetmaker>but it's a challenge
03:57<Arafangion>Besides, my stations are 4-tiles in length (I don't have enough track room for longer), and I can't transport all the cargo!
03:58<Rubidium>improbable is a better word ;)
03:58<Arafangion>(I think I did 200 years ago, but then the industries conspired to produce more!)
03:58<Arafangion>Rubidium: With such a small map, how would you get meet the 'profit' goal?
03:59<Rubidium>with efficiency
04:00<Rubidium>e.g. try to make money both ways
04:00<Rubidium>time waiting to a bare minimum, while still maintaining station ratings
04:00<Arafangion>How should I show a screenshot of the game?
04:01<Arafangion>Getting the screenshot's easy, it's putting it "out there" that's not!
04:01<@Terkhen>use imagebin or some website like that
04:04<Arafangion>http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/97/fardtowntransport18thma.png/
04:04<Arafangion>That seems to do it.
04:05<Arafangion>I'm not too sure about my intersection designs, but they seem to handle the load very well.
04:05<Korenn>Arafangion: if you have the money, raise up all the sea to land level
04:05<Korenn>that will allow more industry to appear
04:06<Arafangion>Korenn: Interesting idea.
04:06<Arafangion>Just raised half the land.
04:06<Arafangion>I now have no money. :)
04:07<Arafangion>That oilfield is new.
04:07<Arafangion>I don't think Fardtown lakeside can handle any more trains, though.
04:08*Arafangion puts in a new station between the power and oil refinery, pending more income.
04:09*Arafangion doesn't think he will use ImageShack again, the images are blurry.
04:10<Korenn>Rubidium: anything other than COPYING required?
04:10<@planetmaker>as said: language files are specific to a build
04:11<Korenn>planetmaker: yeah, that comment of yours made no sense
04:11<Korenn>but I already replied to it
04:11<@planetmaker>it doesn't make sense to distribute without
04:11<Korenn>nobody ever implied that was the intent
04:11<@planetmaker>... so you don't understand it, thus it doesn't make sense?
04:11<Korenn>read the post please
04:11<Arafangion>Isn't that the definition of "made no sense"?
04:12*Lachie trudges in the door from work
04:12<@planetmaker>then learn to express yourself properly, Korenn
04:12<Korenn>it's clear as day
04:12<Korenn>you didn't read properly ;)
04:13<Arafangion>I must say, I'm glad to have found this channel. :)
04:13<@planetmaker>thank you, I can read just fine. Your words are ambigeous at best, Korenn
04:13<Arafangion>*ambigious.
04:14<Korenn>I directly replied to a comment that Lord Aro made. You took it to be a comment to something else (I guess myself?). Not my fault.
04:14<@planetmaker>yes, mr smart***
04:14<@planetmaker>you replied to "missing lang files?" with "no I shouldn't use 'make bundle'" Oh right
04:15<Lachie>Arafangion: since you're being pedantic, it's spelt ambiguous.
04:15<Arafangion>Lachie: Ah, thanks. :/
04:15<Korenn>right, so you a) didn't read the second sentence, b) didn't read the rest post before or bothered to read my comments in the OP.
04:15<Korenn>since I had *just* posted a new zip wiht the lang files
04:15<Korenn>and lord aro responded to taht
04:16<Lachie>Arafangion: like to dish it out but can't take it back? :P
04:16<Arafangion>Lachie: No, it's good to correct spelling and grammar. :) It's frustrating as heck when people don't do that.
04:17-!-Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd
04:18<@planetmaker>Korenn: and still Lord Aro is totally right. ;-)
04:18-!-Devroush [~dennis@178-119-81-33.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd
04:18<Korenn>I never said he wasn't.
04:18<@planetmaker>and the bundle I downloaded did not (yet) contain your (silently) updated thing
04:18<Korenn>though I refuse to install MingW and fuck up my development environment again
04:18<@planetmaker>so how can I know you update something somewhere else when you don't say so?
04:18<Arafangion>Korenn: You don't run your windows in a VM?
04:18<Korenn>lol, no
04:19<@planetmaker>But I should remember to be quite sparingly with advice also in your case. It's obviously not welcome
04:19<Korenn>planetmaker: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=975735#p975735 <- how is that not saying?
04:19<Arafangion>Korenn: Then messing up your environment is a concern, indeed. :)
04:19<Korenn>advice given from not actually reading the thread isn't appreciated, that's correct.
04:19<Korenn>since it tends to be out of context
04:19<@planetmaker>that's out of my screen when reading 'newest messages' ;-)
04:20<@planetmaker>good good. I'll just remember your name ;-)
04:20<Korenn>but I'm adding the COPYING license now
04:20<@planetmaker>yes, do that. technically readme would need to go, too. As gpl requires credits ;-)
04:21<@planetmaker>and when you're at it: add the usual documentation a bundle ships with
04:21<Korenn>I think technically the credits are already in the game itself
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04:22<Korenn>but I'll add those too while I'm at it
04:24<@Terkhen>Korenn: http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/make.htm
04:24<@Terkhen>that should be enough to run Makefile.msvc
04:24<Arafangion>Korenn: What is it you're doing? Making a new win32 version?
04:25<Korenn>Arafangion: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=56955
04:25<Korenn>Terkhen: I'll have a look at that for next time
04:25<Korenn>as long as make bundle doesn't also do a compile / link task
04:25<Arafangion>Ah, interesting - that's similar to what some multiplayer servers require.
04:25<Korenn>and the directories for the binaries all match exactly in win / linux
04:25<Rubidium>if you use Makefile.msvc it doesn't do any compilation
04:26<@Terkhen>Makefile.msvc only creates a bundle
04:26<Korenn>ok
04:26<Arafangion>Made it much more enjoyable.
04:26<@Terkhen>over a source checkout compiled by MSVC
04:29<Rubidium>and be aware that you have to pass PLATFORM=win32 (or PLATFORM=win64 for 64bits MSVC binaries) for it to work right
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04:30<Rubidium>so, e.g. make -f Makefile.msvc PLATFORM=win32 bundle_zip (copies the objs/win32/release/openttd.exe to bin/openttd, then constructs the bundle and finally creates a .zip of it)
04:30<Korenn>Rubidium: I'll add that to a post-build step, thanks
04:31<Korenn>wait, 'creates a zip' ?
04:31<Korenn>using what tool?
04:31<Rubidium>zip
04:31<Korenn>FileNotFound
04:31<Korenn>;)
04:31<Rubidium>if you do just bundle (not bundle_zip) it only creates the bundle
04:31<Korenn>ah ok :)
04:32<Rubidium>though there are many other bundle_* "targets"
04:33<@Terkhen>it probably uses zip for bundle_zip: http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/zip.htm
04:33<Korenn>Arafangion: yep, it does add to the fun. And this way, on our own server, we make all cargoes in FIRS useful and challenging to create :)
04:34<Korenn>Terkhen: I'll just stick to creating the nonzipped bundle and use my own tools after
04:35<Arafangion>Nice. :)
04:35*Arafangion thinks it's absurd that windows doesn't have a convenient .zip implementation.
04:36<@planetmaker>it does.
04:36<@planetmaker>but not command-line
04:36<@Terkhen>it isn't convenient either
04:36<@planetmaker>:-D
04:36<@planetmaker>enough for the rare occasions I use windoze
04:37<@planetmaker>to zip a folder and be done
04:37<Arafangion>planetmaker: It's not even accessible via .NET
04:40<Korenn>the built-in zip is shite. I prefer third party tools like winrar or 7zip
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04:47*Arafangion increases "station spread" because he can't join stations.
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04:50<Korenn>Terkhen: nope, that make fails horribly
04:51<Korenn>'sed' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
04:51<Korenn>The process tried to write to a nonexistent pipe.
04:51<Korenn>'AWK' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
04:51<Korenn>'cut' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
04:51<Korenn>'cp' is not recognized as an internal or external command, operable program or batch file.
04:54<Arafangion>I think those are all provided as part of mingw, and other programs such as git.
04:55<@Terkhen>it does not fail horribly, you are missing more packages
04:55<@Terkhen>you can grab them from that same page
04:58<Arafangion>Fascinating, one *can* have a crashed train in a depot.
04:58<@Terkhen>:P
04:59<Arafangion>And those trains were over $13m each. :(
04:59<Arafangion>Expensive mistake.
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05:01<Elukka>it does make for amusing error messages
05:01<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/vehicleisdestroyed.png?t=1318160729
05:02<Arafangion>A bug!
05:03<Arafangion>One should be able to sell them regardless.
05:03<Arafangion>I sold my car for $100, for instance.
05:03<__ln__>A good salesman would even sell a train that doesn't exist.
05:03<Arafangion>__ln__: My car was a Hyundai, and I sold it to Ford. :)
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05:17<@peter1138>never mind that a slight nudge kills everyone and writes off the whole train
05:19<@Terkhen>oh, I misread "slight nuke"
05:20<PeanutHorst>that would do it too
05:21<@planetmaker>:-D
05:22*Arafangion wishes he had time to contribute to this game, it seems awesome.
05:23<@planetmaker>http://devs.openttd.org/~planetmaker/patches/ogfx-biggui-r2.zip <-- peter1138 for your further testing
05:24<@planetmaker>you have time for what you take your time ;-)
05:25<Arafangion>planetmaker: And right now it's about to be consumed by guacomole and more openttd playing. ;)
05:26<Arafangion>The "GUI redevelopment" sounds intruguing.
05:30<@planetmaker>peter1138: and the arrows are now correct ;-)
05:30<@peter1138>heh
05:30<@peter1138>i'll take a look later
05:30<@planetmaker>I wonder though why the scrollbars use the text arrows and not the sprite arrows
05:30<@peter1138>raisins, hysterical ones
05:31<@planetmaker>the text arrows are differently aligned. And it shows at this size
05:31<@peter1138>one of my patches switches them so that alignment is better
05:31<@peter1138>so yeah
05:31<@planetmaker>:-)
05:31<@peter1138>makes it consistent with hscrollbars too
05:31<@planetmaker>yeah
05:33<@planetmaker>When I get the remaining sprites from Zephyris... we'd have a new version
05:44<__ln__>http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=211667&nseq=13
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05:51<Arafangion>__ln__: That's nothing. :)
05:51<Arafangion>__ln__: I've seen pictures of markets in vietnam, where...
05:51<Arafangion>The market itself is on the train line, which is IN USE!
05:52-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-4d009112.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
05:52<Arafangion>WHen the train comes, they lower the flaps, and move the food and baskets away from the line, although they clearly know excactly how big the train is.
05:53<Arafangion>If anyone lowers the train carriage by say, 2", I'm sure hell would break loose!
05:53<@Terkhen>hi frosch123
05:53<frosch123>morning terkhen :)
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06:00<Rubidium>hi KenjiE20, regarding the admin protocol bugs. I can't find anything obviously wrong with the code at the server side for FS#4796 and FS#4803. Could you give me the code you've got to reproduce the issue?
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06:03<KenjiE20>Rubidium: 4803 sems to be okay in trunk now
06:06<@planetmaker>but... did anything in the source change?
06:07<Arafangion>Do you guys have a web interface for svn?
06:07<KenjiE20>dunno, but stable 1.1.2 it manifests, in r22950 it doesn't
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06:12<frosch123>Arafangion: hg.openttd.org
06:12<frosch123>svn.openttd.org
06:12<frosch123>git.openttd.org
06:12<frosch123>but hg.openttd.org is the best interface :)
06:12<Rubidium>vcs.openttd.org ;)
06:13<Arafangion>Neat. :)
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06:19<Wolf01>hello
06:22<@Terkhen>hi Wolf01
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06:39<@peter1138>git ftw
06:39<@peter1138>(cgit obviously, not the raw git-over-http interface)
06:40<JVassie>thats what she said
06:40<@peter1138>actually, i don't think she did
06:41<@Terkhen>me neither :P
06:42<@planetmaker>so if neither she nor he said it, it must have said it.
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06:55<Eddi|zuHause>* Arafangion doesn't think he will use ImageShack again, the images are blurry <-- afair there is a checkbox "do not resize image" on upload
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07:02<@Terkhen>hmmmm...
07:02<@Terkhen>either I duplicate code, or I use a magic pointer for pointing to both towns and industries
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07:03<frosch123>add a shared base class for town and industry?
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>template?
07:04<@Terkhen>hmmm... a new class just for a single method? it feels like too much just for this
07:04<@Terkhen>also, inheritance tends to affect performance
07:04<frosch123>if you thing it remains with one method :p
07:04<@Terkhen>what else they could share?
07:04<frosch123>everything which has to do with subsidies?
07:05<frosch123>including load/save of that
07:06<@Terkhen>it feels like too much work just for two pointers
07:06<frosch123>no idea what you want to do with them
07:06<@Terkhen>FindSubsidyCargoRoute uses two pointers to industry, src and dst
07:06<frosch123>of course you can also just add a struct with one TownID and one IndustryID
07:06<frosch123>and assert if both are assigned or whatever
07:07<@Terkhen>src and dst now can be of type town or industry
07:07<@Terkhen>hmm... I remember seeing such a struct for something else somewhere
07:07<frosch123>then add src_town, src_ind, dst_town, dst_ind?
07:07<@Terkhen>yes, that would be duplicating code :P
07:08<frosch123>well, what code? :p
07:08*Terkhen goes back to finish the code
07:08<@Terkhen>right now I'm in the middle of it :P
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07:16<@Terkhen>SourceID, right :)
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07:23<@Terkhen>hmm... should we allow passenger subsidies with industry as a source?
07:24<@planetmaker>for ECS it makes sense
07:24<@planetmaker>for oil rigs? Not sure
07:24<@planetmaker>maybe
07:24<@Terkhen>true, I forgot about oil rigs
07:24<@Terkhen>right now there is a check to prevent it
07:25<@Terkhen>probably because of oil rigs
07:25<andythenorth>bongiorno
07:25<@planetmaker>salve andy
07:25<@planetmaker>but subsidies for passengers to oil rigs might be fun tbh
07:26<@Terkhen>passenger subsidies to industries should be allowed IMO
07:26<@Terkhen>it only takes into account industry acceptance anyways, never industry tile acceptance
07:26<@Terkhen>so you will not get a subsidy for taking all the population of a town into a steel mill
07:26<@planetmaker>yes. I'd see no problem to get a subsidy to transport passengers to and from a remote oil rig
07:27<@planetmaker>:-D
07:27<@planetmaker>that's the case I'd be concerned about indeed
07:27<@planetmaker>but well. It's a museum steel mill
07:27<@planetmaker>with a popular and successful outreach manager
07:28<frosch123>oilrigs do not process passengers either :)
07:28<@Terkhen>there was a steel mill on the Simpsons that accepted tourists...
07:28<andythenorth>hmm
07:28<@planetmaker>Terkhen: our local steel mill offers also guided tours...
07:28<@Terkhen>:P
07:29<@planetmaker>and it's one of the biggest ones actually
07:29<andythenorth>so...if you play with 'engines never expire' you'll end up with a lot of boats in FISH
07:29<andythenorth>this is life
07:29<@planetmaker>that's life, yes
07:29<frosch123>planetmaker: steelmills are not exactly "local"
07:29<@planetmaker>:-)
07:29<@planetmaker>frosch123: but Salzgitter is less than half an hour here
07:29<@planetmaker>and I can see it (at night) when they open the furnances
07:29<frosch123>yeah, i was there as well :)
07:30<@Terkhen>and true, oil rigs do not accept passengers as an industry either
07:30<@Terkhen>so... no need to worry there :)
07:30<@planetmaker>don't they?
07:30<@planetmaker>I think they do
07:30<@Terkhen>nope
07:30<@Terkhen>check the industry chain
07:30<@planetmaker>hm. Interesting. So they just generate them?
07:30<@planetmaker>Curious
07:31<@Terkhen>they accept it because of their industry tiles too, but since subsidies only check industry acceptance/production, you will not get subsidies to deliver passengers there
07:31<@Terkhen>only to take them elsewhere
07:32<frosch123>planetmaker: tile acceptance = station nearby accepts them; industry acceptance = industry processes the stuff
07:33<@Terkhen>hmm...
07:33<@planetmaker>Hm, but oil rigs produce passengers, do they?
07:33<@Terkhen>currently, the subsidy code limits cargo subsidies with a town destination to towns with a population greater than 900
07:33<frosch123>yes they procude them, the tiles accept them, but it does not process passengers into oil
07:34<@Terkhen>does this makes sense, given that this also handles mail subsidies?
07:34<@planetmaker>:-D @ frosch123
07:34<@Terkhen>I wonder why it has a limit
07:34<@planetmaker>"Babyöl"
07:35<@Terkhen>what is that?
07:35<@planetmaker>Terkhen: presumably small villages don't accept much <whatever>
07:35<@planetmaker>baby oil
07:35<@planetmaker>olive oil
07:35<@Terkhen>hmm... but now I know exactly which cargos can be accepted by a given town
07:35<@planetmaker>crude oil
07:36<@planetmaker>which doesn't fit a pattern
07:36<@Terkhen>soylent oil
07:38<frosch123>Terkhen: german has a way to combine two words into one which does the tell the direction of the implications between them. "dogsnack" might be a "snack for dogs", or a "snack consisting of dogs"; "babyoil" might be "oil for babies" or "oil made of babies".
07:38<frosch123>s/the/not/
07:39<@Terkhen>I see :)
07:42<@planetmaker>in any case, the oil name you gave lead me to this link: http://www.oilempire.us/soylent.html :-d
07:42<@planetmaker>would win a crack pot price for sure
07:45<@Terkhen>heh
07:45<@Terkhen>I haven't read the book, I know the term from seeing lots of references :P
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07:46<@planetmaker>the book is well worth reading
07:47<@Terkhen>:)
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08:01<Eddi|zuHause>man this google spreadsheet is seriously memleaking
08:02<Eddi|zuHause>or it's firefox in general...
08:03<@Alberth>firefoxoil?
08:03<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: generally the number of bugs growth quadratically compared to the version number
08:03<frosch123>so, consider the progess of firefox in the last year :)
08:03<frosch123>ms otoh did it right from 2000 to 8
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
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08:06<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: you need to use the google native client for google docs
08:06<andythenorth>i.e. chrome
08:06<andythenorth>it mem leaks horribly in FF and webkit
08:06<andythenorth>webkit / safari /s
08:06-!-Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit []
08:06<andythenorth>which is interesting, because chrome uses webkit afaik
08:06<@Terkhen>yes, it shouldn't
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08:26<andythenorth>ok, so now I have 5 generations for one of the freighters in FISH
08:26<andythenorth>each is a unique model so it can be replaced / upgraded
08:26<andythenorth>the graphics for each will be different
08:26<andythenorth>what else should change?
08:26<andythenorth>speed? capacity? cost? running cost?
08:27<andythenorth>linear improvement for each generation?
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08:35<andythenorth>meh
08:35<andythenorth>nobody cares apparently :D
08:37<@planetmaker>capacity should increase
08:37<@planetmaker>as with increased playing time industry output will be increased
08:38<andythenorth>speed also
08:38<andythenorth>I think it will just be slow and annoying from 1870-1900
08:38<andythenorth>:)
08:42<Pinkbeast>Keep 'em cheap early, it's hard enough to make money in 1870.
08:42*andythenorth adds one ship that will fill 64 NARS 2 box cars :)
08:43<Elukka>not sure about capacity increases
08:44<Elukka>ships of all sizes will be needed at all times, though maybe not the biggest ones at the start
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08:45<andythenorth>game needs progression
08:45<andythenorth>otherwise it's boring
08:45<andythenorth>even predictable linear progression is better than none
08:45<Elukka>sure, but i don't think increasing capacity is necessarily the way to go
08:45*andythenorth ponders regression - ships get smaller and slower :P
08:46<andythenorth>Elukka: feel free to make suggestions
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08:47<Elukka>speed is an obvious one, running costs too
08:48<Elukka>i think capacity improvements should come in the sense of entire new lines of bigger ships, not new generations of existing ones
08:48<andythenorth>so ships come in classes - relating to size
08:48<Elukka>ie if a small freighter in 1900 carries 100 tonnes, a ship of the same size should still carry 100 tons in the year 2000
08:48<andythenorth>for gameplay reasons? Or to match RL?
08:49<Elukka>but in 2000 you can get humongous bulk freighters and container ships that simply didn't exist before
08:49<Elukka>both
08:49<@Alberth>flying ships of course
08:49<andythenorth>Alberth: they are zepellins :P
08:49<andythenorth>or ekranoplan
08:50<andythenorth>Elukka: it's a nice idea, but the upper size of ships in TTD is capped quite firmly
08:50<@Alberth>yeah, boats are obsolete, zeppelins are the future!
08:51<andythenorth>so which way should costs go? Up? Down? Or level?
08:51<Elukka>hmm
08:52<Elukka>well by humongous i mean more the cargo capacity
08:53<andythenorth>the biggest FISH ship will have 1408t, and is a large jump from the previous model which was 1080t
08:53<andythenorth>it appears around 1997
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: same way as rockets are obsolete, and shuttles are the future?
08:58<@Alberth>nah, we'll have space elevators
08:58<frosch123>http://xkcd.com/962/
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, we have wingsuit jumping, why would we need intergalactic travel? :p
09:05<andythenorth>it would be nice if....instead of dicking around with prop 1B and some kind of pseudo bubble sort running only in my brain...
09:05<andythenorth>...there was just a newgrf prop which was a list structure of IDs
09:05<andythenorth>:P
09:05<andythenorth>(prop 1B is menu order for ships)
09:06<andythenorth>hysterical raisins no doubt
09:07<andythenorth>doesn't bloody work as expected either
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>i agree
09:09<andythenorth>so I have 5 vehicles gen1-gen5
09:09<andythenorth>for hysterical raisins on my side the IDs are out of sequence
09:09<andythenorth>I can't fix that and maintain savegame compatibility
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>yep, i know the problem
09:09<andythenorth>and I can't put them in the right order.
09:10<andythenorth>1B doesn't work as advertised
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09:11<Eddi|zuHause>i'm fairly sure you just did not read the advertisment right, but i'm equally sure that it's not a good way to handle things
09:11<andythenorth>:)
09:12<andythenorth>so the correct order would be (pseudo IDs): 02, 03, 04, 01, 05
09:12<andythenorth>so prop 1B for 01 is set to 05
09:12<andythenorth>for 04 it's set to 01 etc
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>mind you that prop 1B is executed in the order that it appears in the grf
09:14<andythenorth>ok
09:14<andythenorth>so I have to put my code out of order :)
09:14<andythenorth>this is going to be fun :o
09:14*andythenorth will have to leave lots of comments behind
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>only the parts that set 1B, not any other parts
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>so basically after all your normal code, you handle prop 1B separately
09:15<andythenorth>ach
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09:16<andythenorth>I'll put it all in one include file
09:16<andythenorth>that's quite logical
09:16<andythenorth>like a list :P
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>pretty much :)
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09:21<andythenorth>works
09:25*andythenorth wants engines expire to be both true and false at once
09:25<andythenorth>toggle in the buy menu?
09:25<andythenorth>'current models'
09:25<andythenorth>'historical models'
09:26<@Terkhen>new filter in the buy menu: vehicles newer than X
09:26<Elukka>i'd love that
09:27<Arafangion>I think historical engines should become progressively more expensive, if you want to be realistic. ;)
09:27<andythenorth>Terkhen: just use the model life
09:27<Elukka>considering historical engines are generally repaired and not built from scratch, i'm not so sure
09:34<Arafangion>Elukka: Only if you kept them.
09:35<Elukka>i wouldn't think that the locomotives you specifically built and used are literally the only ones in the ttd world
09:35<Arafangion>Elukka: So, you want someone else's prized relic?
09:36<Elukka>i'd just keep the expiry dates and original prices, honestly
09:36<Arafangion>What about running expenses?
09:37<Arafangion>Although I suppose that's very debatable.
09:38<Elukka>keep them too because it's not like it's going to make a significant difference in game
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>some museum vehicles actually take over commercial transports
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09:48<Danio>Can anyone tell me what I might be doing wrong here? http://minus.com/lWexVmGNTPSc0 Train 14 is just supposed to go to the station on the right, but is instead just looping around. The signals on the right are two-way path signals.
09:49<Elukka>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/3450_-_Pretoria_250481.jpg
09:49<Elukka>cool locomotive
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09:49<Elukka>danio: looks like you haven't electrified the station area
09:51<Danio>Elukka: Yes! Thank you!
09:52<Elukka>i do that all the time and spend a good while pondering what i did wrong :P
09:52<Danio>xD
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>usually happens on overbuilding the station for me...
10:03<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Railway/IMG_3426.jpg
10:03<Elukka>had a go at weathering the cab
10:04<Korenn>Elukka: looks cool, but you'll have to do the plastic bits at the bottom too
10:04<Korenn>or nobody will notice
10:05<Elukka>yeah
10:05<Elukka>just haven't gotten around to it
10:05<Korenn>do you usually paint them yourself? or just for detail?
10:06<Elukka>i just weather them
10:07<Elukka>i'm not confident enough with my skills to do any permanent weathering, so that's pastel chalk and mostly watercolor, of all things
10:07<Elukka>i'm surprised watercolor worked out
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10:22<@Terkhen>bbl
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10:26<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: then check how it looks after 3 months, or 5 years :)
10:26<Elukka>there probably won't be much left in 5 years
10:26<Elukka>can always reapply it or use other methods
10:27<Elukka>the main problem i can see is cleaning dust off it
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10:39<Eddi|zuHause>use an air filter so dust doesn't gather :)
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11:47<_maddy>to make industries increase production, is it better to always have train waiting at the station, or let some material pile up between pickups
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>the former
11:48<Elukka>i wish it wasn't so
11:48<Elukka>it's a bit silly
11:49<_maddy>so better rating means industry is always more likely to increase production? for some reason mine usually decreases if I keep trains waiting (probably just bad luck with randomness)
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11:49<Elukka>better rating increases the chances of production increases, yes
11:50<Ammler>Elukka: how would it be less silly?
11:50<Elukka>why would an industry demand that there always be a train standing on the platform?
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>well, andythenorth could finalize the new firs supplies algorithm
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>that would be less silly, combined with new station rating algorithm
11:50<Ammler>for the industry, the cargo is gone
11:51<Ammler>so that is definitively better
11:51<Elukka>there's a new station rating algorythm?
11:51<Elukka>ammler the whole system is a bit silly
11:51<__ln__>Elukka: english only
11:52<Elukka>huh?
11:52<__ln__>Elukka: your spelling of 'algorythm' is not english.
11:53<Elukka>...that would be a typo, yes
11:53<Elukka>it's not any other language either as far as i know
11:54<Elukka>are you being serious
11:54<__ln__>the topic is serious.
11:54<Ammler>"english" isn't English either :-)
11:56<Elukka>what the hell
11:56<Elukka>'english only' doesn't mean YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO TYPO WORDS, IT SOUNDS FOREIGN
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11:57<Ammler>why should it allow to mistype?
11:58<Elukka>what
11:58<Ammler>anything
11:58<Elukka>can you rephrase that sentence because the structure isn't really english
11:58<Ammler>:-D
11:59<__ln__>if the topic doesn't explicitly allow typos, they must be forbidden.
11:59<@planetmaker>New sentences start with a capital character
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11:59<Elukka>Sentences end with a punctuation mark.
11:59<@planetmaker>, but my sentence wasn't finished. ;-)
12:00<Elukka>ln you've got to be trolling
12:00<Elukka>please tell me you're trolling
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>Interpunctation does never start on the new line.
12:00<@planetmaker>...not?
12:00<@planetmaker>;-)
12:01<andythenorth>the new algorythm is FIRS specific
12:01<@planetmaker>But Algol isn't FIRS-specific.
12:02<Elukka>algol is a star!
12:02<@planetmaker>don't you say!
12:02<Elukka>andy i'm okay with that since i'm gonna use FIRS :P
12:02<Elukka>what's it do
12:02<@planetmaker>Elukka: actually... It's two stars to be precise ;-)
12:03<Elukka>dammit!
12:03<Elukka>you're right
12:03<@planetmaker>it's the prototype of the ... algol variables ;-)
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12:04<Elukka>trivia: nu scorpii is likely a septuple star
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>algo'ol?
12:05<Elukka>my brain is dispensing more trivia and wants to tell you that algol means 'the ghoul' which is a word originating from arabic
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12:06<Eddi|zuHause>lots of words starting with al- are loanwords from arabic
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>especially spanish is full of those
12:06<Elukka>they removed the 'al' from 'ghoul' in english
12:06<Elukka>yeah
12:06<Elukka>although there are alghouls in the witcher game :P
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>al is actually the arabic article
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12:07<Elukka>yeah
12:07<Elukka>they're the the ghouls
12:11<@planetmaker>رأس الغول let's spell it properly ;-)
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12:14<Eddi|zuHause>and it's actually three stars
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12:16<@planetmaker>yes, just found out that, too
12:17<Elukka>almost all of the non-boring star names are arabic
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>well, lots of modern astronomy is based on arabic research...
12:19<Eddi|zuHause>after europe fell into the dark ages, the arabic world was the center of science
12:19<@planetmaker>yup. They were the maintainers of knowledge through the middle ages
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>that was before europe revived itself and in turn the arabic world fell into a dark age...
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12:22<Eddi|zuHause>but that may very well swing backwards over the next 100 years :)
12:22<Elu>did i miss anything?
12:22<Elu>my connection sucks at the moment
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12:23<Eddi|zuHause>@logs
12:23<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd
12:23<Elu>useful
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12:30<Elu>Eddi|zuHause: do you have any reference for the length of prussian tank cars?
12:30-!-Elu is now known as Elukka
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>Elu: not really
12:30<Elukka>gonna do something that looks right then
12:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23030 /trunk/src/company_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4796]: always show a chat message and send an admin packet when a new company is made
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12:54<Eddi|zuHause>gnahh...
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>nml bails on "var[0x61, 0, 0xFFFFFFFF, date_of_last_service]" with "Variable parameter must be a constant number"
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>now i need to make a lookup table for variable names and their numbers to work around that...
13:00<@Alberth>you can also hack nml :)
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>hm... it's even more complicated...
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>since i have to mask out the right bits...
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13:15<@planetmaker>jo, this is nice. Variable 0x80 for canals seems to return height in increments of 1 instead of increments of 8 like all other variables which report tile height...
13:16<Eddi|zuHause>that's the right time to switch it for all other variables :)
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13:23<Eddi|zuHause>what happened to the idea that you can append parameters to any variable, so i could write date_of_last_service(-1) and it expands to var61
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>?
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14:42<andythenorth>in the game - who pays the cost of loading/unloading ships?
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>what cost?
14:52<andythenorth>I am thinking about variable running cost for ships
14:52<andythenorth>but the greatest cost of break-bulk shipping is cargo handling
14:52<andythenorth>so do costs go up or down whilst loading/unloading?
14:57<@planetmaker>they're paid by the person paying the transport
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there's a running cost callback. but unfortunately there is no variable for "is currently loading"
14:58<@Alberth>if you pay for loading, you have an incentive to minimize it
14:58<@planetmaker>they're transit items
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15:04*andythenorth thinks ships are cheaper to run while loading
15:04<andythenorth>either extend running cost cb, or just use speed as a proxy
15:04<andythenorth>or don't bother with variable costs
15:04<andythenorth>I reckon
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there would need to be a difference whether the ship is just sitting at the dock, or actually loaded something the last X ticks
15:08<andythenorth>assuming shipper pays lading cost, both situations are same to me
15:09<andythenorth>ship at dock = reduced crew, no fuel burnt
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15:19<Eddi|zuHause>mäh... random action type 84 doesn't really fit into my schema...
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15:25<Eddi|zuHause>mäh... i broke it :(
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/646/
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>current cets with this patch: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/random_switch.diff
15:29<@planetmaker>nice. Better post it to the bug tracker, though. Yexo and Hirundo seem to be afk
15:29*Yexo is not afk anymore
15:29<@Yexo>anything important I missed today?
15:29<@planetmaker>not much.
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: a critical nml bug 5 minutes ago :)
15:29<@planetmaker>I wondered about the value range of var 0x80 of canals
15:30<@planetmaker>but those two things are mostly all
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>i guess nobody was insane enough to use random action type 84 before...
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>i'll open a ticket
15:30<Elukka>what does cets need a patch for+
15:30<@Yexo>please do
15:30<Elukka>*?
15:31<@Yexo>I know Hirundo did plan at some point to remove random_action completely and replace it by something slightly different
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: that patch is a not-yet-checked-in modification
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: i didn't want to check in something that is known to throw compiler errors
15:32<Elukka>heh, i see
15:32<Elukka>o_O
15:33<Elukka>what's the baureihe A2?
15:33<Elukka>looks really weird
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15:38<Eddi|zuHause>http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittfeld-Akkumulatortriebwagen
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>it looks kinda disputed whether it was called "A2" or "AT3"
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15:45<yrol>Greetings :o)
15:45<PeanutHorst>geekings!
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>greekings
15:46<Elukka>i see it looks just as weird in real life
15:46<yrol>i have a slight problem here with an AI that has autoreplaced its locomotives with a 1HP snowplough and thought i ask here if someone would know how to fix that
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>yrol: look at the AI's thread in http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=65
15:47<andythenorth>FISH ships will use CC hulls from 1870 onwards. Completely unrealistic. Should I care?
15:47<Elukka>hmm.
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: sails in CC :)
15:48<andythenorth>no sailing ships
15:48<yrol>Eddi|zuHause, hmmm ( makes looky looky sounds)
15:48<Elukka>maybe you could find some way to include company colors without coloring the whole hull
15:48<Elukka>but then i don't like company colors anyhow
15:50<andythenorth>I'm doing it because I can't be arsed to redraw 8 angles on 2 large hulls
15:50<yrol>so there is no immediate fix for my problem? cant u somehow take over the AI and reverse the replacement, or... save, then reload without the set that supplies that snowplough?
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15:50<Eddi|zuHause>yrol: you can cheat yourself into the company
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>yrol: but that may break more things that you fix
15:51<yrol>because, frankly, if it cant be fixed ingame or so, my game is pretty much ruined as other AIs certainly also would do such replacement and thusly ruin the whole game
15:51<yrol>°nods° i see. i have to start anew then, i think
15:52<@Yexo>yrol: it depends on which AI you use
15:52<andythenorth>Elukka: you're still at the enthusiastic phase of spriting
15:52<@Yexo>if other companies are controlled by different AIs, only the one company you have now is ruined
15:52<yrol>Yexo, let me check...
15:52<andythenorth>rather than the, "oh, why did I start this task?" phase
15:52<andythenorth>:D
15:53<Elukka>i dunno
15:53<Elukka>considering how slowly i get things done i might be in the second phase already :P
15:53<andythenorth>I like drawing buildings, but vehicles are a massive chore
15:53<andythenorth>I draw it, then I have to draw the other 7 angles :P
15:53<Elukka>yeah since you have to draw the same thing many times
15:53<andythenorth>any chance we could switch to a 3D engine?
15:54<Elukka>ship sprites are big enough that it just might make a bit of sense to render a 3D model and overpaint it?
15:54<@Yexo>you could model the vehicles in a 3D program and render them?
15:54<andythenorth>Elukka: that's how most of FISH is done
15:54<@Yexo>zephyris has done so with great success for grvts
15:54<andythenorth>drawing hull shapes by hand is a no-go
15:54<Elukka>heh, i see
15:55<Elukka>i don't really see how it'd be of much use with road vehicles or trains though
15:55<Elukka>i'd be interested in knowing zephyris' methods
15:55<@Yexo>he uses quite a few scripts all merged together
15:55<yrol>Yexo, only the admiral AI did that, with all its trains ( some arent replaced yet, i guess, because all the other trains block the tracks with their snailish manners.
15:55<@Yexo>I have an (old) copy of them somewhere, but not sure if he'd like me to distribute that
15:55<andythenorth>3D pre-processor for nml?
15:56<@Yexo>that has nothing to do with nml. It could work the same way as that a lot of png files in the opengfx repo are automatically generated from gimp files (which nml can't read)
15:57<andythenorth>ok
15:57<andythenorth>so maybe part of the makefile framework...
15:57<andythenorth>I was thinking it would happen at compile time :)
15:57<andythenorth>of course, then it would take ages
15:57<Elukka>the problem i'd have is how do you make a renderer make pixel arty stuff
15:57<@Yexo>as long as it's only done when the model files changes that doesn't matter
15:58<andythenorth>Elukka: you'd need a very carefully tweaked renderer
15:58<Elukka>even without any texturing, just having the shape would make things a lot faster
15:58<Elukka>i haven't a clue how to tweak it like that :D
15:58<Elukka>or where to start
15:58<andythenorth>it would need a custom shader
15:58<Elukka>that's way beyond me
15:59<Elukka>all i can do is make models and pick some options and click 'render'
15:59<@planetmaker>andythenorth: yes, building OpenGFX from graphics source now takes indeed ages
16:00<@planetmaker>if you generate all pngs which are feasible to be generated
16:00<@planetmaker>any other method to generate graphics files could easily be included as well
16:00<yrol>okies, thanks then. and big thanks for integrating the new station GUI in release :o)))
16:01<@planetmaker>e.g. for houses Zephyris has a nice ImageJ script collection
16:03<andythenorth>now I have to do something about this :) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2044/new_coasters.png
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16:22<MNIM>dude, andy, are you gonna build that much?
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16:24*andythenorth needs a coal sink in FIRS, like a power station or something :P
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16:36<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>let houses built before 1970 accept coal
16:36<Elukka>why not just have a power plant
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: because he removed them
16:37<Elukka>i know, but i don't get why :D
16:40<Rubidium>coal is dirty
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16:40<Rubidium>it's so bad that it puts CO2 and nuclear material into the atmosphere ;)
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16:42<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23031 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Fix [FS#4804]: for the admin "bots" there was no distinction between bankruptcy and manual removal of companies even though the API suggested that
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16:46<Elukka>coal's pretty bad, yes
16:46<Elukka>it's a thing that's used though
16:47<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: were the cets templates hand drawn or rendered?
16:47<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I only need this since the ratings algorithm got changed...
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: hand drawn
16:47<Elukka>hm
16:47*andythenorth has a map full of insane amounts of cargo waiting
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: lower initial production :)
16:48<andythenorth>it's not that high anyway
16:48<andythenorth>supplies algorithm :P
16:49<andythenorth>waiting on the maker of planets :)
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16:57<Elukka>what kind of perspective does openttd use?
16:57<Elukka>projection i mean
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16:58<Elukka>dimetric?
16:58<SpComb>isometric
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16:59<Elukka>is it really?
17:00<andythenorth>good night
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17:00<SpComb>it does the whole 60° / 120° thing, iirc
17:02<Elukka>hmm
17:03<Elukka>well turns out i haven't a clue how i'd coerce kerkythea into actually rendering things with the right projection from the right angles
17:03<Elukka>apparently someone's figured it out for blender though...
17:10<Elukka>well, i guess i'll look into that tomorrow
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17:37<Wolf01>'night
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18:04<__ln__>hmmm, i logged into my cell phone as root through ssh. maybe i should disable root logins.
18:06<@Terkhen>good night
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18:32<z-MaTRiX>;>>
18:32<z-MaTRiX>__ln__<< maybe you should disable unencrypted dataflow in the newtork direction
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 16 00:00:42 2011