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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-20

---Logopened Thu Oct 20 00:00:50 2011
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02:01<@peter1138>there's a bug in welsh
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02:02<@peter1138>for STR_SETTINGS_MENU_GAME_OPTIONS it has "Dewisiadau Ge^m" instead of "Dewisiadau Gêm"
02:02<@peter1138>there's some more like that actually
02:02<@peter1138>w^ instead of ŵ
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02:16<Pikka>mm, welsh
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02:21<Pikka>good morning andy a north
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02:32*Pikka listens to chameleon and codes all the things
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02:35<@planetmaker>good mourning
02:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23039 /trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt: -Fix: Replace e^ and w^ with ?\195?\170 and ?\197?\181 respectively.
02:43<@planetmaker>ehm... that's what wt3 is for?
02:44<@peter1138>it's part of our source code
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02:52<@peter1138>i'm with tron there
02:52<@peter1138>if the translators don't care to notice something is wrong for 2 years...
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02:54<@peter1138>nearly 3
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02:57*andythenorth has been talking to peopl in australia
02:57<andythenorth>and now australian peopl are talking here
02:57<andythenorth>how odd
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03:03<Pikka>is it odd andy?
03:03<Pikka>there's a lot of it (ie, australians) about, you know.
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03:43<Pikka> and now to wait for the bug reports to roll in.
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03:46<andythenorth>new planes from Pikka
03:46<andythenorth>62 vehicles :)
03:46<Pikka>was meant to be 64 but I didn't quite make it :P
03:47<Pikka>actually I've done nothing for the last three weeks, then today I modelled, rendered, cleaned and coded the last two planes that made it in. :]
03:48<Pikka>and yes, 62 vs 29 in the original av8. :o
03:48*andythenorth should do similar for FISH :P
03:48<andythenorth>I am currently at 29
03:48<Pikka>well there you go
03:49<@planetmaker>what you were lazy?!
03:49<andythenorth>drawing boats is rather a chore...
03:49<Pikka>you've got 5 years to make another 33! :D
03:49<@planetmaker>incredible... ;-)
03:50<@planetmaker>sweet thing, Pikka :-)
03:51<@planetmaker>or should I say aluminum thing(s)? :-P
03:51<@planetmaker>and yes: "happy birthday" :-)
03:52<Pikka>happy birthday to av8 :]
03:52<Pikka>and to me last week :o I'm old now!
03:52<@planetmaker>yes, I was sure you could relay that ;-)
03:52<@planetmaker>oh... then belated to you, too :-)
03:52<Pikka>ty :P
03:52*andythenorth will have to start new game for playing game purposes
03:52<andythenorth>but now - other things
03:53<Pikka>bye andy
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03:55<z-MaTRiX>oh i have accidentally added opera's and google's spyware server domains to blocklist using a wildcard
03:56<@planetmaker>ah, sweet. The seaplanes are there but need a parameter. Sounds like exactly the right thing for that, Pikka :-)
03:58<@planetmaker>I should try at some stage to get an experimental seaport going. Possibly also requiring a parameter ;-)
03:59<@planetmaker>... or (alternatively, also) checking that parameter? ;-)
03:59<Pikka>the parameter is just there because there's no standard way of checking if an airport is a seaport yet
03:59<Pikka>if the parameter is on, the plane can operate from any airport, if it's off, it can't operate from any
04:00<Pikka>so it's really just a temporary thing
04:00<Pikka>once we get a standard in for aircraft and airports to communicate with each other, I'll update the grf
04:00<@planetmaker>yes, I understand that
04:02<@planetmaker>that's why the parameter thing is IMHO the best solution to this. With default "not available"
04:04<Pikka>it's always buildable, it just won't leave the hangar. :)
04:04<Pikka>but I don't see why the airport would need any such parameter
04:05<@planetmaker>Pikka, for the same reason: any plane could land on it and it would incur possibly bug reports if a A380 lands in the sea and all is fine
04:06<Pikka>although by the time it's a widely released grf hopefully the spec will have moved to the point that it can be handled "properly". :)
04:22<Pikka>later maker!
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04:47<@Terkhen>good morning
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07:05<Eddi|zuHause>no, google, i do not want to give you my phone number...
07:05<Noldo>but why???!
07:06<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: just use +1.6502530000
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: what's that?
07:07<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: (obviously) one of Google's phone numbers ;)
07:09<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: every good citizen shares not only their own phone number but their whole contact lists with google.
07:16<Elukka>every citizen will have their contact lists recreated by facebook from data taken from your acquaintances who let them use theirs, whether you want it or not or have anything to do with facebook
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>none of my acquaintances really uses facebook
07:19<__ln__>facebook also collects data on people who are not members.
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>but the more removed the next person using facebook is from me, the less data they get
07:24<Elukka>i don't use facebook, don't want anything to do with it, still got a LOOK, ALL THESE FRIENDS OF YOURS USE IT TOO email
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>i never got one of those
07:25<__ln__>and spotify made the ingenious decision that new users can only register through facebook.
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>luckily, spotify is not available in my country, then.
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08:05<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: random_switch works if you apply that simple patch?
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>looks like it
08:06<@Yexo>thanks :)
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08:10<Eddi|zuHause>next i need the cb23 patch commited :)
08:10<@Yexo>right :p
08:11<Eddi|zuHause>when is devzone's nml updated so i know when it's safe to push my changes?
08:17<@Yexo>the nml nightly is build about 10 minutes before the grf nightlies are build
08:17<@Yexo>so around 18:10
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>oberhümer enabled build on push for some reason
08:21<@planetmaker>Then... it'll fail till the nightly is built
08:25<Eddi|zuHause>exactly. and that's why i asked when that is
08:30<@planetmaker>19:20 or so
08:30<@planetmaker>it's in cet 18:10 iirc
08:36<@planetmaker>yes. NML is compiled at 19:10h CEST
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09:27<@planetmaker>hallo Belugas
09:28<@Belugas>salut mec!
09:28<@Belugas>it's THURSDAY!!!!
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>yesterday was WEDNESDAY!!!
09:35<@Belugas>wednesday... what a boring day...
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10:39<z-MaTRiX>10 seconds of recording took 6MB on my "new" webcam
10:41<@planetmaker>sounds little
10:41<z-MaTRiX>recompressed using lavc and got 1.1MB
10:42<z-MaTRiX>maybe if i get the lighting right there will be less noise that must be compressed
10:43<@planetmaker>what format was the 6MB in?
10:43<z-MaTRiX>640x480x30fps i guess
10:44<@planetmaker>do you care about lossless or not lossless?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>i'd care about latency
10:44<z-MaTRiX>no, just tried out
10:44<z-MaTRiX>latency is low
10:44<z-MaTRiX>i have realtime kernel
10:45<Eddi|zuHause>but better compression is usually taking longer
10:45<z-MaTRiX>30fps looks ok
10:45<z-MaTRiX>ahm i see
10:45<@planetmaker>@calc 30*640*480*3
10:45<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 27648000
10:45<@planetmaker>@calc 30*640*480*3 / 1024**2
10:45<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: 26.3671875
10:45<z-MaTRiX>dont know havent tried any special programs yet
10:46<@planetmaker>any computer should be able to stream that to disk w/o compression
10:46<z-MaTRiX>probably :)
10:46<@planetmaker>thus you can use the strongest one which just doesn't pile up memory (if the campera writes images into a queue)
10:46<z-MaTRiX>its usb 2.0
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>that is really unimportant...
10:47<z-MaTRiX>yes well was thinking about bandwidth will not cause images to queue
10:48<z-MaTRiX>usb 1.1 would be 12Mbit/s and should be enough for 640x480x30fps anyway
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>but my personal experience is that a/v asynch gets noticeable at around 100ms
10:48<Eddi|zuHause>that's up to 3 frames
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>so that's around the time it should take at maximum to compress one frame
10:49<z-MaTRiX>dont know what would cause that
10:49<@planetmaker>it *really* depends on what you want to do and record with the webcam, Eddi|zuHause
10:49<Eddi|zuHause>(at least if you want to transmit stuff)
10:49<z-MaTRiX>ahm you thinking about streaming it through net right?
10:50<z-MaTRiX>not recording video
10:50<@planetmaker>even then. Who cares about 100ms latency on the status of the coffee machine?
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>depends on whether the communication is one-way or two-way
10:51<z-MaTRiX>btw you can get very cheap webcams nowadays, and they are better than security cameras
10:51<z-MaTRiX>$6-$10 for a webcam...
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>latency is the time between initiating an action and seeing the result of that action
10:52<@planetmaker>so you "misuse" on as security cam?
10:52<z-MaTRiX>misuse :) haha
10:52<z-MaTRiX>a camera is a camera no?
10:52<@planetmaker>mostly yes
10:53<z-MaTRiX>well actually thinking about warranty-vioding it
10:53<@planetmaker>but I'd not do everything with every camera and some are suited better for one thing or the other
10:53<Eddi|zuHause>occasionally people disagree whether a "Quellen-TKÜ"-trojan is a "Onlinedurchsuchung"-trojan :p
10:54<@planetmaker>which is by rule of the constitutional court (and also otherwise) very different things
10:54<@planetmaker>If only our minister for internal affairs would see that...
10:54<@planetmaker>he's supposed to protect the constitution and not advocate violation of it despite contrary rulings...
10:54<z-MaTRiX>its funny this cam doesnt have new windows drivers, but works instantly on linux
10:56<z-MaTRiX>btw did you know opera and google has spyware servers?
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11:10<z-MaTRiX> ;
11:18<@Terkhen>hi LordAro
11:18<LordAro>hi Terkhen
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11:31<LordAro>i'm getting bored of ubuntu's little problems
11:31<LordAro>how does changing to debian sound?
11:32<@Terkhen>that's was my reason for trying debian after years of ubuntu being the only distro I knew how to use
11:37<LordAro>and your result?
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>so... how do i set train property 1A (sort purchase list) in nml?
11:38<@Terkhen>debian is fine, but I ended up changing to arch because I wanted to experiment a bit
11:38<@Terkhen>next time, I'll probably install debian agian
11:40<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: you'd have to wait for #2856 to be implemented
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'd do that right away, but i don't know enough about the internals of nml
11:43<@Yexo>sort_vehicles(veha, vehb, vehc, ...); <- is that syntax ok for you?
11:44<Eddi|zuHause>it should be a fairly trivial thing, something like: for vehicle in vehicle_list[:-1]: write(prop_1A = vehicle_list[-1])
11:44<@Yexo>that was my plan exactly
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>syntax looks alright
11:47<LordAro>Terkhen/whoever: cool, i think i'll probably do that in the near future. just 1 thing to check - (most) programs that run under ubuntu will also work with debian, yes?
11:48<@Yexo>I'll make it sort_vehicles(FEAT_TRAINS, veha, vehb...); for easier coding
11:49<@Terkhen>LordAro: debian and ubuntu are very similar (ubuntu is still using a lot of stuff from debian IIRC) so it should feel similar
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>or make it sort(FEAT, [a, b, ...])?
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>may make it more obvious
11:49<@Terkhen>also, a program that works in a linux distribution should work in all of them
11:49<@Yexo>that sounds good
11:49<@Terkhen>unless something strange happens or you are not running the same DE
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11:50<LordAro>DE? (development environment?)
11:50<@Terkhen>desktop environment
11:50<@Terkhen>gnome, kde and so on
11:50<@Terkhen>even then they should work too
11:51<@Terkhen>but you can get some strange things :P
11:52<Eddi|zuHause>for KDE apps it should usually only require to have KDE installed, they usually run under all other DEs as well
11:52<LordAro>ah :)
11:52<LordAro>that leads onto the next question: which DE?
11:53<@Terkhen>debian uses gnome
11:53<LordAro>(do you use/like most)
11:53<@Terkhen>gnome 2, which is the one I'm used to work with
11:53<Eddi|zuHause>don't ever ask such questions
11:54<Eddi|zuHause>with 100 people in the channel, chances are you'll get 120 different answers and 3 flamewars
11:54<@Terkhen>don't teach everyone how to troll easily either :P
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12:35<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: actually this would be enough for me right now:
12:38<@Yexo>I'll have an implementation of "sort(feat, [veh_a, veh_b]);" within an hour
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, you have only half an hour until nml is built :)
12:39<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm sure it makes sense to provide both methods
12:39<@peter1138>the original music sounds weird with fluidsynth
12:40<@peter1138>(with the fluid sf2)
12:47<LordAro>within an hour? within 10 mins more like :)
12:47<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: sort-statement is in
12:47<@Yexo>I've attached your patch to the issue tracker but won't commit it now
12:48<@peter1138>midi on the sb live sounds a bit flat
12:48<@peter1138>hmm, the end of the intro theme seems to have the start of the next track
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>now i need to ponder sorting algorithms
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>i mean ordering
12:49<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23040 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Add: [NewGRF] allow use of newgrf textstack during callback 23
12:49<Eddi|zuHause>not how-to-sort :)
12:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23041 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: rename slightly unclear parameter name
12:51<@peter1138>hurr, the 4-6-0 king arthur is broked :S
12:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23042 /trunk/src/ (strings.cpp strings_func.h): -Codechange: make case_index an explicit parameter of GetStringWithArgs instead of hiding it in the stringid parameter
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12:52<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23043 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix: allow the use of cases only for those cases where strgen allows them and reset the case_index properly after {DATE} and {DATE_LONG} codes
12:53<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23044 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Codechange: reorder parameter order so we can make use of the default=0 more often
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12:58<Eddi|zuHause> <-- what am i doing wrong? get "unexpected token: ';'"
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>without ; i get "unexpected end of file"
12:59<@planetmaker>remove the last ,
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that should really not be a problem
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13:03<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: also happens without that ,
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>+ raise generic.ScriptError("Second parameter is not an array of one of the items in it could not be reduced to a constnat numer", self.pos) <-- typo "of"->"or"
13:05<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: the function is called "sort" as you suggested, not "sort_vehicles"
13:05<@Yexo>the comma is allowed
13:06<@Yexo>the error should be improved, but that's more work
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>right, getting new error now. this time a real one :)
13:06<Eddi|zuHause>i can solve that one :)
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13:08<Eddi|zuHause>i need another refactoring, i think...
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13:42<z-MaTRiX>voided warrant of my webcam
13:42<z-MaTRiX>now it can see infrared
13:44<z-MaTRiX>sounds like you dont like the idea
13:45<@peter1138>my video camera has a switch to enable "night mode", heh
13:45<z-MaTRiX>and i have remoed the IR filter
13:45<@peter1138>though it goes all green, heh
13:46<z-MaTRiX>my mobile phone had night mode too
13:46<z-MaTRiX>but that only adds blur
13:47<z-MaTRiX>(more exposure time)
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13:48*SpComb sets aperture to f/0.8
13:49*planetmaker just bought 70mm @ f/2.8 ;-)
13:49<z-MaTRiX>do you make IR photos?
13:49<@planetmaker>no, why?
13:49<z-MaTRiX>i saw some interesting ones
13:50<@planetmaker>at least not normally
13:50<@planetmaker>making IR photos usually requires also some hardware modification
13:50<LordAro>hai Alberth, get my pm?
13:50<@planetmaker>and specific lenses
13:50<@Alberth>yep, you got mine? :)
13:50<LordAro>nope! :)
13:50<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX, but... if I need it... I have an IR camera 4 doors further down the hallway :-P
13:51<LordAro>(i.e. haven't looked)
13:51<@Alberth>phew! (was afraid I didn't press 'send') :)
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>anyone have python magic to shorten expressions like "x if f(x) else y", to avoid repeating the x?
13:53<@peter1138>"f(x) ? x : y" ? :p
13:54<@peter1138>or i don't quite understand you
13:54<b_jonas>Eddi|zuHause: make a function for it
13:54<b_jonas>so you just write foo(x,f,lambda: y)
13:54<@planetmaker> <-- rather a bit of HDR, z-MaTRiX ;-)
13:54<b_jonas>use a better name instead of foo
13:54<@Alberth>LordAro: <-- just found this
13:55<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: x = ...
13:55<@planetmaker> <-- like that 3*30min exposure
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: that cannot be used inside an expression
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that's exactly what this already is
13:56<SpComb> use a statement then :p
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: but functional programming is way more beautiful :)
14:00<@Alberth>you're using the wrong language :)
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14:15<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: x or y :)
14:17<@Alberth>it is only a few miles outside 'pythonic'
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that requires lazy evaluation on "bitwise" or :)
14:20<blathijs>Alberth: (filter(f, [x]) + [y])[0] ?
14:21<blathijs>uh, s/Albert/Eddi|zuHause/
14:21<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: luckily python does that :)
14:21<blathijs>Alberth: Isn't the f() gone in your "x or y" ?
14:22<@Alberth>good point, forgot about f() :(
14:22<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: (I know the filter thing is quite ugly, but it doesn't repeat the x, like you asked, and 'filter' was the first thing that came to my mind when you said something about "return x if f(x) is true)
14:22<@Yexo>(lambda a,b: a if a else b)(x, y) <- even more ugly
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: hm, that might be interesting
14:23<@Alberth>Yexo: if f(a) :)
14:23<@Yexo>yes, ok :)
14:24<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: write a function like the one by Yexo, and use that
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>basically i have a sequence of operations, and i need the first non-zero result
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>so filter may do exactly that
14:26<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: sequence of operations, or sequence of operands?
14:26<blathijs>filter does the latter, but a smart lambda might of course fix that
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>sequence of operations
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14:29<@Alberth>print next(x for x in [0,0,0,12,13] if x)
14:29<@Alberth>oh 'if f(x)' of course
14:29<SpComb>for x in l: if x: return x
14:29<@Yexo>spcomb: that's a statement, no longer an expression
14:30<SpComb>it's a function definition body
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's the same thing
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think SpComb has quite grasped the meaning of functional programming :)
14:32<SpComb>I don't think Eddi has grasped the point in writing Python code :p
14:32<@Yexo>def getval(list): return list[0] if f(list[0]) else getval(list[1:])
14:32<SpComb>unles this is all esoteric something
14:32<SpComb>what concrete state/code do you have now? Pastebin?
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>the filter thing works well, thanks blathijs
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>still room for improvement :)
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14:34<SpComb>slightly wtf
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: it's a simple sorting function :)
14:37<@Terkhen>see you tomorrow
14:37<@Alberth>bye Terkhen
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14:37<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: you're trying to be too clever or something
14:37<SpComb>it's obfuscated code
14:37<@Alberth>except filter filters over all values instead of upto the first non-zero one :)
14:37<Eddi|zuHause>SpComb: i'm trying to remove redundancy
14:37<SpComb>then write helper functions
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: small detail
14:38<SpComb>first(cmp(table[key1][item], table[key2][item]) for item in ("...", ...))
14:38<SpComb>and define those string keys somewhere not-inline
14:38<SpComb>or something
14:39<SpComb>takes way too much seeking to read that code
14:39<@Alberth>and it has too many lambdas :)
14:41<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: There are quite some "pure white" warnings in CETS, is that the code or the sprites?
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14:42<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: but i have not heard back from oberhümer yet
14:43<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: ooh, i was about to add more lambdas :p
14:46<@Alberth>you should use 'def' instead :)
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14:54<Eddi|zuHause> <-- new state of the code
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>should use more "map", i think...
15:02<valhalla1w>Eddi|zuHause: I prefer the (x["allowed" for x in (table[key1], table[key2])) syntax
15:02<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23045 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Change: copy 6 registers to newgrf textstack after cb23 instead of 4
15:02<andythenorth>good day
15:02<Eddi|zuHause>valhalla1w: maybe
15:02<valhalla1w>and besides, it would be more readable to extract a cmp(a,b) method
15:03<@planetmaker>hello andythenorth
15:03<@Alberth>hi andythenorth
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>valhalla1w: how do you mean?
15:03<valhalla1w>Eddi|zuHause: sec, let me get creative
15:04*Alberth ponders about 'metal fabrication plant'
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>valhalla1w: most of these things are strings
15:04<andythenorth>Alberth: ponders about the translation?
15:05<@Alberth>especially the 'metal' part :)
15:05<andythenorth>it's a bit of a cheat industry
15:05<andythenorth>in the current economy it's mostly this:
15:05<@Alberth>I have now a 'parts factory'
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>does that fabricate metal, or fabricate stuff from metal?
15:06<valhalla1w>oh, it's slightly more difficult than I thought
15:06<andythenorth>it fabricates and paints metal parts
15:07<andythenorth>depending how you interpret it, they could be anything from large custom parts for construction (building materials), to 10,000 car doors per week
15:07<@planetmaker>Alberth: "Metallwaren-Fabrik"
15:07<andythenorth>presses, stamps, cuts, welds metal
15:07<@planetmaker>maybe you can Dutch-y-fy that ;-)
15:07<andythenorth>then paints it (hence chemicals)
15:07<@Alberth>like metal fabrication plant parts :p
15:08<@Alberth>it needs the 'metal' bit too in the name, I guess
15:08<andythenorth>doesn't have to if it translates better another way
15:09<andythenorth>it's only there to make it easy to figure out the chain + what it does
15:09<valhalla1w>Eddi|zuHause: argh, and it's actually pretty elaborate -_-
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>valhalla1w: unless you have a really genious idea, i'll leave it at that now
15:10<valhalla1w>Eddi|zuHause: using 'or' instead of filter might be a start ;-)
15:10<valhalla1w>oh, no, that doesn't work either
15:10<valhalla1w>ok, ignore me ;-)
15:11<valhalla1w>but adding two lines of comments 'this does this' might be a good idea
15:11<valhalla1w>and a line
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15:11<valhalla1w>'# wasted time on improvements: 15 minutes'
15:11<andythenorth>Alberth: is 'metal workshop' clear?
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>valhalla1w: you mean like this?
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15:14<valhalla1w>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that helps
15:14<valhalla1w>Eddi|zuHause: actually: it does the same as 'or'
15:14<valhalla1w>0 or -1 or 1 or 0 == -1, 0 or 0 or 1 or -1 or 0 == 1
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>maybe, but the list syntax is cleaner, i think
15:15<Eddi|zuHause>could fold on "or"
15:15<valhalla1w>yeah, the or syntax is not really clear either
15:16<Eddi|zuHause>but that again involves iterating over all items, so it's no improvement
15:17<@Alberth>andythenorth: oh, you changed that too, and I really liked my translation :p
15:17<andythenorth>"just saying"
15:18<@Alberth>I am working on the list provided by check_language from top to bottom :p
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15:20<@Yexo>the check_language script should ignore strings with cases instead of reporting them as superfluous
15:22<@Alberth>it should also allow for noting 'current translation is correct'
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15:24<@Yexo>that needs either external storage or modifying the language file without changing anything, ie by adding/removing a space before the colon
15:27<@Alberth>it needs a proper translation web service :p
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>who wanted to extend webtranslator for grfs again? :p
15:28<@Yexo>TrueBrain, where are you? :p
15:30<@Alberth>hmm, why do you always see errors after a commit? :p
15:30<Eddi|zuHause>that's some kind of natural law :)
15:31<TrueBrain>Yexo: in Leiden, why?
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15:58<blathijs>Hmm, can you iterate a list-of-lists in a list comprehension in Python?
16:00<andythenorth>if you're smart enough
16:00<andythenorth>list comprehensions are a bit unpythonic
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>fold the list of lists?
16:00<andythenorth>they're very cool, but can be baffling
16:00<@Alberth>blathijs: yep, [x for xl in L for x in xl]
16:01<andythenorth>what's wrong with lots of 'for i in foo:' stuff
16:01<blathijs>andythenorth: Are they? I found the pretty functional and neat, having worked with Haskell for a year or so :-)
16:01<Eddi|zuHause>i did something like that once, but don't remember it
16:01<blathijs>Alberth: I don't think that worked
16:02<andythenorth>blathijs: simple ones are very neat, they can get complex
16:02<blathijs>Alberth: Oh wait, it does
16:02<blathijs>Alberth: I had the for's reversed
16:02*andythenorth is not a great python coder
16:03<blathijs>I had expected the fors in a list comprehension to be processed in reverse order, but apparently they aren't
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if you never properly learned functional languages, you'll find no benefits of list comprehensions
16:03<@Alberth>no, just from left to right, except for the final expression
16:03<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I never properly learned functional languages :)
16:04<andythenorth>it's when you nest list comprehensions that it can be baffling
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16:04<andythenorth>I would prefer the verbose version
16:04<blathijs>Alberth: I guess that's the reason I expected the reverse; the final expression is at the left :-)
16:05<andythenorth>complex nested list comprehension smells of one coder showing off, leaving the next guy thinking 'wtf?'
16:05<@Alberth>blathijs: just plain mathematics: { z | x\in X, y\in Y, z = x+y }
16:05<blathijs>Alberth: Good point :-)
16:06<blathijs>andythenorth: In this case, it's finding out the maximum label length from a list of widgets, so that's still pretty clear with a comprehension
16:06<blathijs>it's just that the list got nested just now, so I needed to adapt it :-)
16:06<blathijs>It works now, though. Thanks guys :-)
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: it may be better to use a recursive funtion
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>or you'll rewrite this again for the next level of lists
16:08*andythenorth doesn't really grok functional programming
16:08<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: It's not nested arbitrarily
16:09<@Alberth>andythenorth: it is mostly about expressing some algorithm in a neat and tidy way
16:09<@Alberth>ie you don't need extra variables, initialization, and other clutter around it
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16:12*andythenorth always thinks functional programming looks like lego :P
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>non-functional functions like list.sort are tricky
16:13<andythenorth>map | reduce is usually functional?
16:13<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: there is also the function "sorted"
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: i never remember these things
16:14<blathijs>Strong typesystems associated with some functional languages are also a blessing, IMHO
16:14<blathijs>The typechecker usually found 99% of the bugs I coded into my Haskell programs :-)
16:15<Eddi|zuHause>i could use with some static typechecking in python
16:16<@Yexo>me too
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>what also might be useful is a syntax like "def func(param1:type1, param2:type2) that automatically generates an "assert isinstance(param1,type1)" etc.
16:19<blathijs>I guess that's not very duck-typy
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: yes, isinstance kinda contradicts this paradigm
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16:21<Eddi|zuHause>so there also needs to be an isduck(var, type)
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>where type is an interface i need
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16:22<FFLaguna>Hello, is there a command or setting to let everyone start with $1,000,000 in a multiplayer game? :)
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>FFLaguna: no
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16:23<Eddi|zuHause>FFLaguna: everyone can just go to the finance window, and ctrl+click on lend money
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>(or is it "borrow"?)
16:24<FFLaguna>Can I change how much they can borrow, initially?
16:25<@Yexo>anyway, start the multiplayer game, create all companies, save game, open in singleplayer, cheat money for all companies, save game, load in multiplayer
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>FFLaguna: yes, in the difficulty settings
16:25<FFLaguna>Eddi - Does that work on multiplayer? I seem to recall that even though I could loan $600,000 in a game I was hosting, everyone else could only loan $300k
16:25<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: just try casting it
16:25<andythenorth>with try: except:
16:26<@Yexo>FFLaguna: yes, it works in a multiplayer game
16:26<andythenorth>first try, then ask forgiveness
16:26<@Yexo>as for your example, are you sure everyone was using the same currency?
16:26<@Yexo>perhaps you could loan 600k dollar and the other players 300k pounds
16:26<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: enough variations on str(var), int(var) etc. will tell you what it is :P
16:27<andythenorth>although you have to pass errors silently, which is considered to be A Very Bad Thing
16:27<FFLaguna>Yexo - I'll try starting multiplayer and editing in singleplayer
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: exceptions don't mix well with functional programming
16:28<@planetmaker>FFLaguna: different currency might fool you into believing that different players have available different amounts of loan
16:28<@planetmaker>but... yexo said so already :-)
16:42*andythenorth ponders
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16:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: any ideas about improving the sort order? i'm not finding a good way to ensure passenger and mail wagons stick together
16:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: patch ottd?
16:46<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: not sure how that's going to help
16:46<andythenorth>what's the issue?
16:46<andythenorth>nml provides the IDs for you?
16:46*planetmaker hasn't yet looked at that.
16:47<@planetmaker>What stops you to script it such that passengers are put there first, mail 2nd etc?
16:47<@planetmaker>or how is it done currently?
16:47<Eddi|zuHause>currently i sort by refittable cargo classes
16:48<andythenorth>leave it to players?
16:48<andythenorth>the list is sortable in game...
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>and that is a lexicographic sort
16:48<Eddi|zuHause>so it depends on the names of the cargo classes
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>so i need some exception for the passenger and mail cargo classes
16:51*andythenorth ponders FIRS station rating algo.
16:52<andythenorth>might need tweaking
16:52<andythenorth>or might be near-perfect
16:52<FFLaguna>Does the dev version of OTTD have a lot of important changes not found in the latest stable?
16:53<andythenorth>you can use dev versions of of several newgrfs for starters
16:53<FFLaguna>Ah, found the changelog
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16:54<FFLaguna>Oh, doesn't really look like that many changes, to be honest
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16:59<Rubidium>there not being a lot of important changes in the dev version means that we release often enough ;)
16:59<Rubidium>also the number of important changes that can be done diminishes over time
17:01*planetmaker wouldn't want to do without the newgrf changes, though ;-)
17:02*andythenorth ponders changing FIRS grfid
17:03*planetmaker brought up that idea but currently thinks "wait till 1.2 beta and don't change it" ;-)
17:04<FFLaguna>Exactly, seems the last release was in September :)
17:05<@planetmaker>FFLaguna: releases which bring new features are only once per year really ;)
17:05<@planetmaker>so to see what is added you have to go back to everything since about March
17:06<@planetmaker>around the year we add to the stable branch only bug fixes
17:06<andythenorth>good night
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17:06<@planetmaker>g'night Andy...
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17:21*Yexo wonders what changelog FFLaguna found
17:25<FFLaguna>This one
17:25<FFLaguna>Seems it's just for one build, though
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17:26<@Yexo>that one seems to be fore amore than a single build
17:29<Eddi|zuHause>it's by far not the complete list of changes since last major release
17:29<@planetmaker>yeah... that seems like one nightly's changelog
17:29<@planetmaker>or a few maybe
17:30<@Yexo> or you can browse through all changes
17:30<@planetmaker> <-- tells me it's the work of 8 days
17:30<@Yexo>r22082 was the 1.1 branch, so almost all features introduces after that are not in 1.1
17:31<@planetmaker>did we port a single _feature_?
17:32<@Yexo>- Feature: [NewGRF] Allow to filter by town of the current industry when using industry variable 0x68 [FS#4591] (r22434)
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17:32<@Yexo>and a few more in 1.1.0-RC1, but nothing significant
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18:21<FFLaguna>Can anyone give me the main new features of the latest dev builds, compared to the stables?
18:21<FFLaguna>What are the big changes that come to mind first?
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>lots of new newgrf features
18:23<FFLaguna>Anything that interfaces with 2cc Trainset and NuTracks?
18:24<KenjiE20>ohai FFLaguna
18:24<Eddi|zuHause>not that i know of
18:24<FFLaguna>Subways on NuTracks... you still have to bulldoze the houses and roads in cities to build subways?
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18:25<KenjiE20>nightlies generally you'll get the new features as they get made, and all of their associated bugs
18:25<FFLaguna>Right, Kenji
18:25<KenjiE20>sometimes, that's server breaking :p
18:25<Eddi|zuHause>FIRS uses some of the new newgrf features
18:26<Eddi|zuHause>and CETS, but that doesn't really count yet :)
18:26<KenjiE20>you could probably ask in #openttdcoop.devzone for a more direct/verbose answer
18:26<FFLaguna>Hmm... how does FIRS integrate with ECS? Are they compatible? Nothing on the wiki page about it
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>no. it's an either-or thing
18:27<FFLaguna>Or are they mutually exclusive?
18:27<@planetmaker>100% incompatible
18:27<FFLaguna>I see
18:27<KenjiE20>they both break industires equally? :P
18:27<FFLaguna>So which is better? ;)
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18:28<KenjiE20>FFLaguna: have a dig about in the coop archive's I think we've had both ecs and firs games in the past
18:28<Elukka>my opinion is FIRS is better designed and it has more consistently good graphics
18:29<Elukka>but fundamentally which is better is entirely subjective
18:29<@Yexo>heh, I just went over the changelog looking for commits starting with -Feature. From the last 6 months, we have some minor things to do with transparancy, some gui tweaks, and besides that only newgrf features
18:29<FFLaguna>Yexo - Oh, thank you very much
18:29<KenjiE20>Yexo: don't forget undocumented features :)
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: you miss the "Add YACD" and "Add more height levels" :p
18:31<@Yexo>hmm, I did miss that one
18:31<@planetmaker>-Add: ... probably
18:32<@Yexo> (svn r22767) -Add: river generation
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>blame Rubidium for being too good at hiding things :)
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18:33<Eddi|zuHause>why is nobody interested in this?
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18:34<Elukka>looks much better to me
18:34<Elukka>might even make me use fences
18:38<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: was it ever posted to FS?
18:38<Eddi|zuHause>don't think so
18:38<@planetmaker>it looks better, yes... but now is really sleeping time :-) Good night
18:39<ptr>guten nacht
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20:44<FFLaguna>Why do subways take up above-ground spaces? :(
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20:52<Elukka>i think the game doesn't support real subways
21:08<Mazur>There are no below-ground stations in Transport Tycoon DeLuxe.
21:09<Mazur>But you can build almost all track underground.
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21:39-!-ServerMode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 21 00:00:58 2011