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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-22

---Logopened Sat Oct 22 00:00:59 2011
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01:41<dihedral>good morning
02:28<dihedral>i was up before you .. ;-)
02:32<@planetmaker>so are you proud or should I pity you (on a weekend)? :-P
02:42<dihedral>rather pitty me...
02:42<dihedral>i woke up at 7.15
02:43<dihedral>and have since been tweeking my mail server :-P
02:43<@planetmaker>hehe :-)
02:53<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause2: I'm afraid your complaints wrt the Makefile are not reproducible for me.
02:53<@planetmaker>Please be more precise on how I could possibly reproduce the issue you experience
02:55<@planetmaker> <-- this pretty much looks like it should work, Eddi|zuHause2
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03:13*dihedral loves happy fish!
03:13<dihedral>esp. with chips ^^
03:22<FFLaguna>Can I disable "you lose too much money, so we are offering your company to another player"?
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03:41<z-MaTRiX>what are the benefits of a normal sized sd card if microsd+normalsd adapter costs same?
03:42<z-MaTRiX>smaller in size, and same capacity
03:44<dihedral>FFLaguna, by playing multiplayer ;-)
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04:13<dihedral>a Mucht
04:14<@planetmaker>a ghost ;-)
04:19<Eddi|zuHause>a morning
04:21<@Terkhen>good morning
04:23<Eddi|zuHause>anyone have a clue what jvassie meant when he added the "RFe 4/4" to the tracking table? i can't find it on this list:
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05:00<z-MaTRiX>some zoom optics there
05:07<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX: get something bigger ;-) ... like:
05:08<z-MaTRiX>and everybody will think i'm going to take photos of stars
05:08<@planetmaker>no, why would they?
05:08<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: he means the re4/4 no?
05:08<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, those are listed elswhere
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>RFe 4/4 sounds like a railcar
05:09<Eddi|zuHause>or MU
05:10<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX: everybody would rather think you're going to make sports photography or wildlife shots
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05:11<@planetmaker>it's not like the usual 200mm or maybe 300mm are a big zoom
05:11<@planetmaker>at least to me it feels quite limited to have only 300mm at hand :-)
05:12<z-MaTRiX>yes well it might use a stand
05:12<dihedral>i shot wildlife
05:12<dihedral>was dead afterwards
05:12<z-MaTRiX>take gun too next time
05:13<@planetmaker>nah, one can still carry this lenses. Not light with a proper camera, maybe 2.5kg together. But still
05:13<@planetmaker>feasible and worth it
05:13<@planetmaker>but indeed I need a monopod
05:13<@planetmaker>nah. monopod
05:13<@planetmaker>more mobile :-)
05:14<@planetmaker>A tripod is what I have and use ;_)
05:14<z-MaTRiX>and a comfortable seat
05:14<@planetmaker>grass and a mat is fine
05:15<dihedral>... i have a monopod ... *wink*
05:16<z-MaTRiX>what are the benefits of a normal sized sd card if microsd+normalsd adapter costs same?
05:16<z-MaTRiX>smaller in size, same capacity...
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05:17<@planetmaker>having one piece less which can fail?
05:17<dihedral>i could not tell you any
05:17<dihedral>apart from that ^^
05:18<z-MaTRiX>not sure i'd want normal size sd if micro size is available
05:18<z-MaTRiX>there is 16GB microsd too now
05:18<@planetmaker>my camera uses CF anyway ;-)
05:19<@planetmaker>but I possibly should get a bigger CF at one stage...
05:19<z-MaTRiX>i see sd/sdhc everywhere
05:19<z-MaTRiX>some old machine?
05:19<@planetmaker>my camera isn't terribly new. But I'm still content with 8MPix at 5fps and 12 bit resolution
05:20<@planetmaker>and good snr at 640 iso
05:21<@planetmaker>and iirc canon still uses CF for cameras, even the new ones:
05:21<@planetmaker>and I wished I could afford that camera ;-)
05:22<z-MaTRiX>somehow i'd never prefer a canon
05:22<@planetmaker>somehow I always preferred them ;-)
05:22<z-MaTRiX>because it 'looks alike' a canon?
05:23<@planetmaker>handling convinced me.
05:23<@planetmaker>and when I bought my first one it was the best buy for the buck as well
05:23<@planetmaker>and with some lenses around you don't switch camera manufacturer easily.
05:24<@planetmaker>especially when lenses keep their value ;-)
05:24<@planetmaker>and it's not like their cameras are bad or over-prices now as well. On the contrary
05:24<@planetmaker>especially looking at 7D
05:25<@planetmaker>one decision point was also the amount of lenses available in principle
05:25<@planetmaker>which makes for a reasonable 2nd hand market
05:26<z-MaTRiX>heres my prefernce
05:27<dihedral>12 bit resolution?
05:28<@planetmaker>dihedral: jpg is for beginners
05:28<@planetmaker>per colour channel
05:29<dihedral>who wants jpg when using a decent camera
05:29<@planetmaker>or was it 10bit? I might deceive myself for my camera
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05:29<dihedral>i laughed my head of when a friend of mine was talking about having to 'edit the pictures' and was storing them in jpg format
05:31<dihedral>i would have expected cannon raw to be more than 12 bit
05:32<@planetmaker>so I have it already for 5 years, I guess
05:32<@planetmaker>Kinda ordered it when it came out. And it wasn't my first camera either. Back then Samsung was totally out of question
05:33<@planetmaker>only Nikkon was the competition, less so Minolta
05:33<dihedral>according to one source it's 12 bit
05:33<@planetmaker>then I remembered correctly
05:36<@planetmaker>and got before that since 1996 or so
05:36<dihedral>another source mentions 16 :-P
05:36<@planetmaker>16bit is exagerated
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05:41<dihedral>you were just talking about the 1d :-P
05:42<dihedral>what's not exaggerated about that? :-D
05:42<@planetmaker>1D... yes, that might
05:42<@planetmaker>that's a sturdy and great beast :-)
05:44<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX: and why do you choose the samsung?
05:46<z-MaTRiX>that a mirrorless DSLR
05:47<z-MaTRiX>and i think its better than the competitors
05:47<@planetmaker>I saw that. But... where's the advantage in that?
05:47<z-MaTRiX>well it doesnt have the mirror
05:47<z-MaTRiX>not clicking
05:47<z-MaTRiX>and smaller
05:47<@planetmaker>'no mirror' is not an advantage in itself
05:48<@planetmaker>how's the view finder handled with mirrorless cameras?
05:48<z-MaTRiX>if you look at that part in a DSLR, focus is calculated
05:48<z-MaTRiX>well its handled in digital, - if has one
05:48<z-MaTRiX>there are some that does not have viewfinder
05:49<z-MaTRiX>but live-preview is there
05:49<z-MaTRiX>and autofocus can be done directly
05:49<@planetmaker>and everyone knows how great displays work or show under some conditions ;-)
05:49<dihedral>that aint the best for the sensor :-)
05:49<z-MaTRiX>you dont have to calibrate your mirror system for focus
05:50<z-MaTRiX>this type i mentioned has oled display
05:50<z-MaTRiX>that is not lcd
05:50<z-MaTRiX>it is active light matrix
05:51<z-MaTRiX>the panasonic competitor uses lcd for example
05:51<dihedral>it's good compared to normal digital cameras
05:51<dihedral>better even
05:51<z-MaTRiX>since it has dslr sized sensor
05:51<z-MaTRiX>and optics
05:52<z-MaTRiX>well this is a long description with technical parameters if you interested
05:52<z-MaTRiX>the description lols
05:53<z-MaTRiX>"life's easy use it stupid type"
05:54<z-MaTRiX>dihedral<< yeah i saw some guys stating the mirror protects the sensor while not making photos
05:55<z-MaTRiX>dont know yet if it has some other shutter for protection
05:55<dihedral>but also all displays have pixels
05:55<dihedral>so focus is never as good
05:55<z-MaTRiX>but if it does live-preview then is possibly uses the sensor, so pointing it to sun will probably damage the main sensor
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05:56<dihedral>all light that comes in will, over time of course
05:56<@planetmaker>having a digital view finder is what would really bother me
05:56<z-MaTRiX>you think you wouldnt see outof focus with it?
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05:56<dihedral>though i am sure it's a neat way to get started ;-)
05:57<dihedral>i'll get you to know some tricks ;-)
05:57<@planetmaker>my eye has a better focus in difficult situations than electronics. And then a VGA resolution or (whatever) just doesn't cut it
05:58<@planetmaker>but the main reason I'd not start with samsung: available lenses ;-)
05:58<z-MaTRiX>well given the pentaprism is machined sub-micrometer accurate then its better option for you if you are concerned about focus correctness
05:58<dihedral>but, considering the cost, i think you'll get a good portion of fun out of it, while getting into the topic deeper and depper
05:58<@planetmaker>most money should be invested in lenses
05:58<dihedral>and soon (1 - 2 years) you'll want a better camera anyway ;-)
05:58<dihedral>the only danger is, if you buy too many lenses for that thing, you'll be stuck with samsung
05:59<@planetmaker>yeah. switching systems is basically impossible once you started
05:59<z-MaTRiX>i think i'll probably damage it and throw it out in a few years
06:00<z-MaTRiX>this mirrorless thing is fairly new topic
06:00<@planetmaker>it is
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06:00<z-MaTRiX>what would you say if they make 10 megapixel oled viewfinder for you in 2 years?
06:01<@planetmaker>I'd still say "I'll need to test it in nighttime"
06:01<@planetmaker>or for delicate macro
06:02<z-MaTRiX>nighttime performance depends on sensor size
06:02<z-MaTRiX>i saw largest ones are 18k$+
06:02<@planetmaker>mostly yes. And sensor performance
06:02<@planetmaker>canon used to be much better there than others. But others caught up
06:03<z-MaTRiX>btw if you use larger optics you get better light collection efficiency no?
06:03<@planetmaker>that's what the f/x.y tells you
06:03<@planetmaker>the "opening ratio"
06:04<@planetmaker>the smaller x.y the more light you get
06:04<@planetmaker>focal length over opening diameter
06:05<dihedral>the more lenses inside the optic the more light you lose
06:06<dihedral>unless you want to spend a bunch of cash, but then you'd not want that camera ;-)
06:06<@planetmaker>dihedral: yes... but for normal lenses that doesn't really matter
06:06<z-MaTRiX>well that camera includes an optics
06:06<@planetmaker>any somewhat decent commercial lense has sufficient lambda/4 coatings there
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>hm... the "double decker" engine, which realistically does only pull double decker push-pull trains, offer that as fixed unit, or as single engine?
06:06<z-MaTRiX>for $700
06:07<@planetmaker>go for fixed now with refits in length
06:08<z-MaTRiX>so if there is too much light i close the aperture a bit
06:08<z-MaTRiX>my webcam currently is too sensitive
06:09<@planetmaker>yes. At the same time you increase the depth of field though
06:09<@planetmaker>you might as well reduce sensor sensitivity of shutter time
06:09<@planetmaker>depends on what you want to achieve wrt image result
06:09<z-MaTRiX>unfortunatly video recording does not have shutter time
06:10<dihedral>personally i'd go for something like a 60D
06:10<z-MaTRiX>yeah i was looking at nikons but...
06:10<dihedral>or something along those line
06:10<z-MaTRiX>dont want mirrors now
06:10<dihedral>or preferably something with a big sensor :-)
06:10<dihedral>z-MaTRiX, you do, you just don't know it yet
06:10<@planetmaker>dihedral: yes... but unfortunately they killed the nice handling of the 30D...50D from the 60D and adopted the xy0D handling
06:10<@planetmaker>which I like much less
06:10<z-MaTRiX>nor pentaprisms
06:11<z-MaTRiX>and its large, its clicking
06:11<@planetmaker>thus... if I'd buy a camera now, it'd be the 7D ;-)
06:11<dihedral>z-MaTRiX, mirror is the best you can do ;-)
06:11<dihedral>unless you want to shot movies
06:11<dihedral>7D is gorgous
06:11<dihedral>a friend of mine bought one
06:11<@planetmaker>and it's only 1.2k€...
06:11<z-MaTRiX>CSI use nikon
06:11<dihedral>eh ... wait ... no - he went to nikon i think
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06:12<dihedral>bought a complete new set
06:12<dihedral>z-MaTRiX, because they get money for that
06:12<@planetmaker>then the d300 from nikon
06:12<@planetmaker>D300 is probably what I'd get, if I used Nikon
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06:13<z-MaTRiX>oh look what i found
06:14<z-MaTRiX>ah not this link
06:14<@planetmaker>well... I need a very tiny one for the trouser pocket ;-)
06:14<@planetmaker>for those occasions where a dslr equipment is too bulky or too expensive
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06:15<z-MaTRiX>waterproof funcamera
06:16<@planetmaker>maybe... waterproof is good :-)
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06:17<z-MaTRiX>you may wonder what will you photo underwater
06:17<z-MaTRiX>and wat will be the quality
06:18<@Alberth>water quality is probably more of a concern :)
06:18<@planetmaker>makes it easily usable on canoe tours or so
06:19<@planetmaker>last canoe tour I didn't dare take mine
06:19<@planetmaker>rain forest is no issue with good but normal equipment
06:19<@planetmaker>it's sufficiently weather-sealed
06:19<z-MaTRiX>but your dslr ... ;/
06:19<@planetmaker>yes, it is
06:19<@planetmaker>it's no issue to use and handle it in heavy rain
06:20<@planetmaker>done so often
06:20<@planetmaker>only water on the lense may be detrimental... but a lense hood may help there
06:20<@planetmaker>also a difference to the cheap entry cameras, though ;-)
06:21<z-MaTRiX>btw how about those leafshadowthings i saw before on an expensive optic end?
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06:21<z-MaTRiX>those will provide protection against raindrops too right?
06:21<@planetmaker>I guess that's what I meant with lense hood
06:22<@planetmaker> <-- like that?
06:22<z-MaTRiX>ah i see
06:22<@planetmaker>they avoid stray light coming from out-of-image area entering the optics and giving nasty bright spots
06:23<dihedral>planetmaker, do you have a 'pol-filter'?
06:23<z-MaTRiX>yes those are nasty
06:23<@planetmaker>dihedral: sure
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06:23<@planetmaker>helps a lot when you try to take photos of fish
06:24<@planetmaker>but can be funny sometimes in other places as well. But I don't use it often
06:24<dihedral>i love the colours you get with those filters
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06:25<@planetmaker>I mostly use it to get rid of reflections I don't want
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06:26<z-MaTRiX>horizontal polarization filter underwater?
06:27<dihedral>did you check the example picture z-MaTRiX
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06:28<z-MaTRiX>which one?
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06:29<dihedral>find the 1 difference ;-)
06:29<z-MaTRiX>yey well thats rather interesting
06:30<dihedral>and the window is still closed ;-)
06:30<@planetmaker>I find it a rather disconcerting example :-P
06:31<z-MaTRiX>yeaah was reading about the quarter-wave plate in cdrom
06:31<Eddi|zuHause> <-- that's a cute little engine :)
06:31<@planetmaker>shunting use only?
06:31<z-MaTRiX>and it has a polarisation splitter cube too
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06:32<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, mainly shunting
06:32<dihedral>pabst-mobil on rails :-P
06:33<@planetmaker>interesting engine, indeed :-)
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>can be switched between track class C and D by removing some weights
06:33<Eddi|zuHause>so which one do we take?
06:35<@planetmaker>or would we duplicate then much?
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>don't think so
06:40<TrueBrain>All OpenTTD Webservices (with the exception of the masterserver) are down. There is some terrible performance from the MySQLd, causing huge issues throughout the network.
06:43<z-MaTRiX>i have a new project now
06:43<z-MaTRiX>i have ~5m cat-5e cable, and a webcam with ~1m cable with audio
06:44<z-MaTRiX>and willing to cross the 2 ;>
06:45<z-MaTRiX>usb + audio over cat-5e
06:45<valhallasw>it's just a different cable :p
06:46<valhallasw>and 5m is probably a bit long for USB
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06:54<TrueBrain>for everyone working with MySQL: add skip-name-resolve in your [mysqld] in your config .... #@$#$%#@$@#%#$
06:55<Whity>lol, it made a big difference?
06:55<@Alberth>between working and not working big enough? :p
06:55<TrueBrain>between connection accepted in 60 seconds and directly? :P
06:56<Whity>haha, that looks more like a DNS issue to me
06:56<TrueBrain>events of the day, for who is interested: all webservice were terribly slow. An initial scan revealed a user on a VERY slow connection doing MANY requests, and over time he took too many active connections, limiting availability
06:57<TrueBrain>then MySQL decided to hang (looking back, it had DNS issues), it got killed, which corrupted one of our archive table
06:57<TrueBrain>which means it consumes 100% CPU and consumes the whole disk very fast
06:57<TrueBrain>and then it turns out our ISPs DNS stalled connections with rDNS requests, causing MySQL to be VERY slow
06:57<@Alberth>murphy at its best :)
06:57<TrueBrain>at least they are coming all at the same time, I guess
06:58<TrueBrain>Alberth: yup
06:58<TrueBrain>anyway, all webservices should be available again :)
06:58<Whity>MySQL is being a bitch lately
06:58<TrueBrain>lately? Lolz
06:59<Whity>i just solved an issue at work with our SUN Cluster randomly rebooting MySQL
06:59<Whity>because of timeouts in checking permissions
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06:59<TrueBrain>we have an archive table of 100 MiB
07:00<TrueBrain>believe it contains 40M records
07:00<TrueBrain>every time MySQL does not 100% what it should, the table crashes
07:00<TrueBrain>I don't know why we still use MySQL tbh
07:00<Whity>100M is not that big
07:00<TrueBrain>you would think, yeah ...
07:01<TrueBrain>40M records is on the large size, sure, but .. really? :P
07:01<Whity>using the ARCHIVE engine? or plain MyISAM/InnoDB ?
07:01<TrueBrain>I just said that: an archive table :P
07:01<TrueBrain>MyISAM bailed out years ago, and InnoDB didn't like it either :P
07:02<Whity>i am working with 1.5G inno tables :S
07:02<TrueBrain>size of Inno is bigger than ARchive :D
07:02<TrueBrain>this is a table which keeps track how many downloads are done
07:02<TrueBrain>so it is INSERT only
07:02<TrueBrain>much faster as ARCHIVE
07:03<Whity>you could do inserts on a separate DB :p
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>use SqLite! :p
07:03<Whity>so it doesnt fuck up the query cache :p
07:03<TrueBrain>Whity: I guess
07:03<TrueBrain>silly that it is needed tbh
07:04<Whity>your query cache is not 1GB or so is it?
07:04<TrueBrain>but okay .. that a non-clean-shutdown crashes this table really annoys the fuck out of me
07:04<TrueBrain>euh .. query cache is huge
07:04<TrueBrain>256 MiB
07:04<TrueBrain>well, 'huge'
07:04<TrueBrain>but okay :P
07:04<Whity>that is on the big side for cache
07:06<TrueBrain>I know little of MySQL tuning
07:06<TrueBrain>this performance app tells me what I should icnreas, and I did that till it shut up :P
07:06<Whity>lol :)
07:06<Whity> ? :p
07:07<TrueBrain>most likely :P
07:07<TrueBrain>kinda lost where it is .. hmm ...
07:07<Whity>other tables are isam or inno ?
07:09<Whity>as long as its mainly read only that's okay, if your key_buffer_size is big enough
07:09<TrueBrain>Innodb is disabled I believe
07:09<Whity>disabled by the ISP?
07:09<TrueBrain>256 MiB of KeyBuffer :P
07:09<TrueBrain>no, we run our own shit :P
07:09<TrueBrain>disabled by configuration
07:10<Whity>slow_query_log showing anything out of the ordinary?
07:10<TrueBrain>a few baddies
07:10<TrueBrain>but what can you do ...
07:10<Whity>optimize em :p
07:10*TrueBrain gives Whity MediaWiki :P
07:10<TrueBrain>also FlySpray has a few
07:10<TrueBrain>can't be arshed to optimize them tbh :)
07:10<TrueBrain>and our stats (which is run every 24h) screams :P
07:11<TrueBrain>that is why we run it at night :P
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07:11<TrueBrain>the query is HUGE :P
07:11<Whity>ill have a look
07:11<TrueBrain>I tihnk I removed the tool I used to tune mysql, I cannot find it :(
07:11<Whity>im on a mysql roll anyway this month
07:11<TrueBrain>ah! in /var/tmp ... lolz
07:12<TrueBrain>haha: Data in ARCHIVE tables: 9G (Tables: 1)
07:12<TrueBrain>I strongly doubt that value is correct :P
07:13<Whity>how did you get that value? :p
07:13<Whity>show table status :P
07:13<TrueBrain>Ah, the total amount of indexes is 111.8M, and keybuffer is 256M .. should fit easily :D
07:14<Whity>total over the full DB?
07:14<TrueBrain>97.4% keybuffer hit rate :D:D
07:14<Whity>that means you have near to none indexes lmao
07:14<TrueBrain>74.2% query cache efficiency :D
07:14<TrueBrain>Whity: every table is indexed, no worries
07:14<Whity>unless your DB is only 120MB offcourse
07:14<TrueBrain>no, 4 times as big or something
07:14<TrueBrain>not sure
07:14<TrueBrain>the SQL was 1.4GB
07:15<Whity>what is your query cache ratio?
07:15<TrueBrain>[13:14] <TrueBrain> 74.2% query cache efficiency :D
07:15<Whity>didnt see
07:15<TrueBrain>Joins performed without indexes: 33 :P
07:16<TrueBrain>18%, 178 on disk, 973 in total
07:16<Whity>tmp_table_size prob too small
07:17<TrueBrain>not even in the settings .. there was something with that entry in MySQL 5 .. hmm
07:17<TrueBrain>can't remember
07:17<TrueBrain>table_cache is 1000
07:17<Whity>and open_tables is currently?
07:17<TrueBrain>217 open atm
07:17<Whity>but you just restarted
07:17<TrueBrain>much more will be very hard :P
07:18<Whity>you think?
07:18<TrueBrain>we don't have that much tables :P
07:18<Whity>we have 300 tables and 4000 open :P
07:18<TrueBrain>and not many concurrent connections :P
07:19<Whity>not many = 1 to 8 ? :p
07:19<TrueBrain>I believe something like 30 at most
07:19<TrueBrain>in worst case scenarios (read: slashdot)
07:19<Whity>30 is already getting bigger lol
07:19<Whity>slashdot :)
07:20<Whity>admins best friend
07:20<TrueBrain>last time we got slashdotted, we got up to 40 http requests per second or something, well below the max .. I am not that worried :P
07:20<Whity>no reverse proxy in front of the site?
07:20<TrueBrain>believe the peek was 80 ... *yawn*
07:21<TrueBrain>there is, but how does it matter?
07:21<Whity>well that should take care of the HTTP requests that serve non-dynamic content
07:21<TrueBrain>it does; our http stuff is fairly optimized
07:22<TrueBrain>for example, we use php-fpm for PHP pages, nginx for all static content, for the wiki alone
07:22<TrueBrain>flyspray has an identical setup
07:22<TrueBrain>all proxied by one huge nginx in front of that
07:22<TrueBrain>gives a huge performance, we have seen :)
07:22<Whity>sounds good
07:23<TrueBrain>MediaWiki has at max 7 php-fpm instances, an average page takes 250ms to generate, so when more than 28 dynamic pages per second are requested, mediawiki starts to complain .. the first one who will :P
07:23<TrueBrain>of course it is heavily cached, so only the first page takes 250ms, every other request after that takes 30ms ..
07:24<TrueBrain>which would mean ... 200+ dynamic pages per second
07:24<Whity>you dont have the pages cached for some seconds?
07:24<TrueBrain>mediawiki caches its pages on several levels
07:25<TrueBrain>depending on what and when, it can cache up to a few hours
07:25<TrueBrain>(memcache ftw :P)
07:26<TrueBrain>hmm, in fact, our load balancer will complain first .. takes him 14ms to handle a connection, and it runs in 1 thread (lol)
07:28<TrueBrain>but yeah, I like our system :)
07:28<Whity>it sounds like a good setup, just some minor flaws kicking it in the balls sometimes
07:28<TrueBrain>yeah, like a rDNS which goes out for a piss
07:29<TrueBrain>one thing I need to figure out, is how I can avoid very slow users hogging up all connections ...
07:29<Whity>but how is it setup that a slow user can hog a connection?
07:29<Whity>to mysql?
07:29<TrueBrain>no, to http
07:30<Whity>for downloads
07:30<TrueBrain>1 IP had 10+ connections all with a Send-Q of huge, with active connection attached
07:31<TrueBrain>(that user is banned now btw :p He was crawling all pages, in a very bad and slow way :P)
07:31<Whity>the user was called BaiduSpider? :P
07:31<Whity>i banned that chinese mofo last week too
07:31<Whity>lol :D
07:31<TrueBrain>was the user agent
07:32<TrueBrain>chinese, yes :P
07:33<Whity>those connections get hogged on the nginx level?
07:33<TrueBrain>on the first proxy, yeah
07:33<TrueBrain>not sure why .. somehow they stayed alive
07:33<Whity>been looking around
07:33<Arafangion>Perhaps they trickled data through slowly?
07:33<Whity>i'm not a nginx expert :P
07:34<Arafangion>It's the usual way to keep a connection open.
07:34<TrueBrain>Arafangion: yeah, but even then. Normally data is put in the Send queue, and nginx just closes the connection
07:34<TrueBrain>it is up to the OS to take care of it
07:34<TrueBrain>its normal to have a shitload of connections with a queue and CLOSE_WAIT
07:34<Arafangion>TrueBrain: The OS wouldn't know, as it does have data.
07:34<TrueBrain>those I don't care about
07:34<TrueBrain>Arafangion: when you request a page, nginx serves you the page (it hands it over to the OS) and it closes the connection
07:35<Arafangion>Basically you manipulate the TCP connection.
07:35<TrueBrain>nginx no longer cares about you, and continues to serve others
07:35<Arafangion>Ah, ok - then neat.
07:35<TrueBrain>Whity: yeah, earlier today I had the limiter active, but it turns out my browser alone opens 5+ connections to open the wiki :D
07:35<TrueBrain>and nginx then returns a bad return-code when the limit is reached, causing partial pages :(
07:36<TrueBrain>so that was even worse :P
07:36<TrueBrain>I assumed it would queue the connections, but it doesnt :P
07:37<TrueBrain>reading on the internet, I am not the only one who had issues with JikeSpider :P
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07:37<TrueBrain>Arafangion: if a http (or any other network service btw) wouldn't do this, a DoS would be very very easy ;)
07:38<Arafangion>Point. :)
07:39<Whity>and your max connections is slightly over 10 or how come it hogs all connections? ;)
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07:40<TrueBrain>I have no idea why it hogged them ... seems keepalive is the cause ..
07:41<TrueBrain>oeh, btw, talking about this shit: what is a good dns proxy / cache / resolver for on a gateway?
07:41<Arafangion>TrueBrain: So it was trickling data? :)
07:42<Arafangion>TrueBrain: bind is the traditional choice.
07:42<Whity>bind yes
07:42<TrueBrain>I hate bind
07:43<TrueBrain>I run dnsmasq at home .. dont really like it either
07:43<Whity>you asked for a good one :P
07:44<TrueBrain>bind is not good :P
07:44<TrueBrain>bind is 'common' :P
07:45<Whity>most common things are not 'bad' :P
07:45<Rubidium>maybe the samba project has a dns server
07:45-!-hanf [] has joined #openttd
07:45<Whity>except Windows lol
07:45<Rubidium>then you can run it in an AD
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07:46<TrueBrain>Whity: how many issues have there been with bind? :P
07:46<TrueBrain>how many of them were critical?
07:46<TrueBrain>now take, for example, powerdns
07:46*Whity waves a white flag
07:46<TrueBrain>DebianAdministration suggests pdnsd
07:47<TrueBrain>pdnsd it is :P
07:49<TrueBrain><3 simple configuration scripts :D
07:50<TrueBrain>haha, 692 KiB of RAM in use :D
07:51<Whity>memory efficient lol
08:00<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: If you haven't found it already:
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08:10<+michi_cc>Seems to be somewhat exotic :)
08:10<TrueBrain>why does OpenTTD always have more servers online than clients to play on them? :P
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08:10<Whity>fire your marketeer ;)
08:11<Arafangion>TrueBrain: A lot of those games seem to be very old, or saturated with AI bots.
08:11<TrueBrain>Whity: I changed the tmp_table_size to 128MiB (!), and still it makes tables on the disk ... I hate MySQL :P
08:12<Arafangion>TrueBrain: You're not alone there. :) Many people hate MySQL.
08:13<TrueBrain>now made it 256 MiB :P
08:13<Whity>did you also increase the heap size+
08:13<TrueBrain>now MySQL can use 101% memory, shit
08:13<Whity>otherwise it doesnt matter
08:13<TrueBrain>Whity: yup
08:13<TrueBrain>those should always be identical :)
08:13<|Jeroen|>many people hate orcale :-p
08:13<TrueBrain>okay, that is why I didn't change it: even at 256MiB, it still works on disk :P
08:14<TrueBrain>silly :)
08:14<Whity>so i guess you are doing joins that create tables over 256MB
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: only things i miss now for SBB is the very old engines, the cisalpinos and the very new engines (511/512). and occasionally some weight values
08:14<Whity>are you sure those joins are needed? :p
08:14<TrueBrain>Whity: which is hard, as I doubt we have that much data to JOIN :P
08:14<Whity>those queries should be in your slow query log
08:14<TrueBrain>0 slow queries
08:15<Whity>fast disk :P
08:15<TrueBrain>owh well :)
08:15<TrueBrain>its fast enough :P
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08:15<Whity>well it depends, what is your long query time?
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>next we should maybe think about which of these go to core
08:16<TrueBrain>my what?
08:16<TrueBrain>not in show_status?
08:16<Whity>the time after which queries go to the slow query log
08:16<Whity>show variables ;)
08:16<TrueBrain>owh, configure option :P
08:17<TrueBrain>I guess it is in seconds
08:17<Whity>make that 1
08:17<Whity>i mean 1 second is a slow query imho
08:17<Arafangion>Unless it's Oracle.
08:17<Whity>(im in e-commerce; clients talk in ms)
08:17<TrueBrain>troll-oh-lol :P
08:18<TrueBrain>Whity: yeah, I agree, 1s is insanely slow tbh :P
08:18<Whity>so 10s is not telling you a lot
08:18<Arafangion>Seriously, I know of an oracle database that takes 3 *minutes* to respond.
08:18<Whity>lol wtf
08:18<Whity>that needs some tuning
08:18<TrueBrain>hahaha, 1 of the queries:
08:18<TrueBrain>select IFNULL(SUM(...) from INFORMATION_SCHEMA! :P
08:18<Arafangion>Whity: Not my responsibility. :)
08:18<TrueBrain>lolz :P
08:19<Whity>where does that query come from lol
08:19<Whity>never seen that in the wild
08:19<Arafangion>Probably a wierd ORM.
08:19<Whity>and that is taking over a second? :s
08:19<TrueBrain>ah! I also log non-indexed :)
08:19<Whity>ah :D
08:20<Whity>that explains it
08:22<Whity>any others now?
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08:22<TrueBrain>turns out our frontpage is without index on the order by field, lolz
08:22<TrueBrain>query time is 0.5ms, I don't care
08:22<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: has some engine data
08:23<Whity>your frontpage should be in the reverse proxy cache anyway
08:23<TrueBrain>Whity: it is in a cache, just not in thatone :P
08:23<Whity>then why is it hitting your DB ? :p
08:23<TrueBrain>initial load
08:23<TrueBrain>happens :P
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08:24<TrueBrain>k .. 66 tables on disk, no slow queries :P
08:24<Whity>weird :p
08:24<Whity>im gonna check a production system of ours
08:24<TrueBrain>I guess I should just accept it and live with it :P
08:25<Whity>probably on disk means in /tmp which is RAM :p
08:25<TrueBrain>nope, /tmp is disk on this VPS
08:26<TrueBrain>I wonder why, but okay
08:26<Whity>then i cannot explain it lol
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08:26<TrueBrain>so then we just accept it :P
08:27<Whity>until it gives you issues
08:27<TrueBrain>tnx anyway Whity :)
08:27<Whity>but it doesnt explain why your DB crashes
08:28<TrueBrain>owh, that is just MySQL being MySQL :)
08:28<Whity>nah its not
08:28<Whity>ive never seen it crash it self in a production system
08:28<TrueBrain>lol; I can't say the same :D
08:28<TrueBrain>mostly it self-repairs
08:28<TrueBrain>but MySQL 5 can't repair ARCHIVE tables
08:29<Whity>mysql> show status like '%tmp%';
08:29<Whity>| Variable_name | Value |
08:29<Whity>| Created_tmp_disk_tables | 0 |
08:29<Whity>| Created_tmp_files | 42 |
08:29<Whity>| Created_tmp_tables | 0 |
08:29<TrueBrain>use pastebin for so many lines :P
08:29<Whity>this is a heavy e-com DB
08:29<TrueBrain>we are special :D:D
08:29<Whity>i love special people
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>"Das pflücken von Blumen während der Fahrt ist verboten" :p
08:30<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: ich spreche keine Deutch
08:30<Whity>i see PI
08:30<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: that is entirely your own fault :p
08:30<TrueBrain>not really
08:30<TrueBrain>it was a choice
08:30<TrueBrain>that is for sure
08:31<TrueBrain>but to call it a fault ...
08:32<Whity>but TrueBrain if i were you i would run that ARCHIVE table in a separate instance so the full table scan when you read from it does not overwrite any caches
08:33<TrueBrain>its only read rarely
08:33<TrueBrain>very very rarely
08:33<Whity>i thought nightly ?
08:33<TrueBrain>like once in the 4 months or so
08:33<Whity>not for daily stats
08:33<TrueBrain>no, the ARCHIVE table is not, it is a manual action Rubidium has to do :P
08:33<TrueBrain>daily stats go in another table
08:33<Whity>then it couldnt hurt
08:34<TrueBrain>37M BaNaNaS downloads :D
08:34<TrueBrain>since 2009 somewhere?
08:34<Whity>you're the next Akamai
08:35<TrueBrain>the next who?
08:35<Whity>Akamai CDN ;)
08:35<Whity>nevermind :p
08:35<TrueBrain>I had to look it up
08:35<TrueBrain>but no, not really :P
08:36<Whity>so, if the ARCHIVE is not being read... what is causing your crash :/
08:36<TrueBrain>and because the ARCHIVE is written often and a lot
08:36<TrueBrain>chances it corrupts seems very high
08:36<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Any idea which engine the BLS Be 4/4 is meant to be? The only matching one I can find ( says build 1953 and not 1932.
08:36<TrueBrain>oeh, OpenTTD is downloaded 3M times! :D
08:37<TrueBrain>3059577 :D
08:37<Whity>nice one
08:37<TrueBrain>owh, no, that is wrong
08:37<TrueBrain>that is total downloads of everything
08:37<Whity>you still outperform minecraft
08:37<TrueBrain>2.5M times a release is downloaded :P
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: i have not looked at the BLS vehicles yet
08:37<TrueBrain>Whity: just it took us a few years :P
08:37<TrueBrain>stats started at 2008-09-14
08:38<Whity>that is 3 years; still decent
08:38<TrueBrain>3000 downloads every day
08:38<TrueBrain>that is not bad, no
08:38<Arafangion>And it wouldn't count people like me who started with OpenTTD from the debian repo.
08:42<TrueBrain>that is why BaNaNaS is a slightly better indication
08:42<TrueBrain>37M ingame downloads is .. a lot :P
08:42<TrueBrain>sadly, we don't keep track of unique connections made, so we can't really count how many people are active on a day :P
08:42<TrueBrain>would be nifty, but we are not Facebook
08:44<amix>just put my 4 computers on facebook
08:44<+michi_cc>Hmm, what to do with modified engines? The BLS Ce 4/6 for example was modified to a Ce 4/4 from 1956 on. So should the decomissioned date be that of the original 4/6 (1972) or of the 4/4 (1984 or so)
08:45<TrueBrain>amix: I guess it is a good thing; if you ever might die, we at least have enough stories to tell about you :D
08:47<amix>this one
08:48<TrueBrain>I like your cactus
08:49<amix>TrueBrain: the biggest screen is for the morphos machine
08:49<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: The BLS Ae 8/8 is an articulated engine with two parts, no idea how to put that into the spreadsheet :)
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: like the SBB 8/14
08:50<amix>TrueBrain: what are you doing?
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>you have the "front" part with an id > 128, and the "back" part with an id <128
08:50<Eddi|zuHause>and 0 middle parts
08:50<TrueBrain>amix: enjoying my saturday; you?
08:50<amix>I do
08:50<amix>waiting for MorphOS 3 for powerbooks
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08:55<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Have to step out a bit, but will do so unless you get there first.
08:56<amix>the new Amiga is released
08:56<amix>for the cheap price of £1699 ;P
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09:57<z-MaTRiX>can some pro recommend me something?
09:57<z-MaTRiX>my modded webcam takes too much light and picture is oversaturated
09:58<z-MaTRiX>should i put a piece of aluminium foil with a smaller hole in place of the IR filter?
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10:07<Arafangion>Depends on the mod I guess.
10:07<Arafangion>But prpbably no.
10:07<z-MaTRiX>only removed the IR filter
10:08<z-MaTRiX>so sensor gets more light
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10:08<Arafangion>You'd need to tweek the calibration
10:09<Arafangion>Most likely in software.
10:09<z-MaTRiX>but sensor is getting oversaturated
10:10<z-MaTRiX>even if i could get brightness lower i have lost all colors
10:10<Arafangion>The sensor itself? You'd probably have to increase the frame rate.
10:10<Arafangion>But that's probably limited by hardware.
10:10<Arafangion>Perhaps add a filter?
10:11<Arafangion>Back to square one, I guess. :)
10:12<z-MaTRiX>there is a filter that takes a little outof visible portion?
10:12<z-MaTRiX>and lets IR through
10:12<Arafangion>The white balance may assume a particular distribution, though.
10:19<andythenorth>z-MaTRiX: too much light is falling on the ccd?
10:19<andythenorth>try an ND filter
10:19<andythenorth>sounds unusual though, typically there is too little light for a sensor
10:20<andythenorth>the gain on the ccd might be turned up in software
10:20<Arafangion>andythenorth: He's removed a filter, though.
10:20<Arafangion>andythenorth: So it makes sense for there to now be too much.
10:20<z-MaTRiX>andythenorth<< i have removed the IR filter
10:21<z-MaTRiX>because it can see in the dark this way
10:21<z-MaTRiX>"dark" IR irradiated
10:21<andythenorth>try replacing IR with an ND then
10:21<andythenorth>the IR filter will have a loss factor, probably not much
10:21<andythenorth>the ccd will be calibrated for that
10:21<z-MaTRiX>is an ND filter common thing?
10:21<andythenorth>an ND is 'neutral density'
10:22<z-MaTRiX>will it let through IR ?
10:22<z-MaTRiX>i'd like to block a bit from visible spectrum
10:22<andythenorth>there are filters for that
10:23<andythenorth>possibly the issue can be fixed in software in your case
10:23<Arafangion>You could also use multiple cameras.
10:23<andythenorth>but sometimes it's easier just to stick a filter on
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10:25<z-MaTRiX>i put down brightness to zero and contrast, but still white
10:25<andythenorth>more complex software might be able to handle changing the gain
10:25<z-MaTRiX>this might be because sensor is more sensitive to IR
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10:26<andythenorth>but ultimately if there's too much light falling on the ccd, it will clip at the peak
10:26<andythenorth>it's physics :)
10:26<z-MaTRiX>it does clip
10:26<z-MaTRiX>so it cannot be corrected using software
10:27<Arafangion>z-MaTRiX: you could correct it with software using an additional camera (with IR filter)
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10:28<andythenorth>z-MaTRiX: got anything you can use as a filter to test?
10:28<z-MaTRiX>sure i have used a welding google, that worked
10:28<andythenorth>glass, acetate, tracing paper...
10:28<andythenorth>cigarette rolling papers
10:28<z-MaTRiX>but i believe it blocks some IR and a bit green
10:28<andythenorth>a welding google is quite dark :)
10:29<z-MaTRiX>tried videocasette tape, that was too dark, and i belive it has a metallic layer that blocks IR too not just visible
10:29<Arafangion>tracing paper soaked in oil?
10:29<z-MaTRiX>not sure i want oil soaked paper
10:30<andythenorth>most camera shops will have a basic ND or ND 2 filter for cheap
10:30<Arafangion>I mean vegetable oil. It's not that bad.
10:30<andythenorth>probably secondhand
10:31<z-MaTRiX>ND filter has a rating right?
10:31<z-MaTRiX>like OD2
10:32<andythenorth>yes, they have ratings
10:32<andythenorth>I can't remember how much light they drop
10:32<andythenorth>wikipedia probably knows
10:32<andythenorth>ND 2 - 8 is the usual range I think
10:33<z-MaTRiX>oh look what i found on ND filter
10:34<Arafangion>Someone must've lied to her if they said a filter was being used. :)
10:34<Arafangion>That looks photoshopped, though.
10:36<z-MaTRiX>my dark green welding google has 5 LUX.0 1FK rating
10:36<z-MaTRiX>i think its OD5
10:36<Arafangion>Why do you call it a "google"?
10:36<z-MaTRiX>it was a bit too dark
10:36<Arafangion>That's twice you've called it that.
10:37<z-MaTRiX>because it looks something like this
10:38<Arafangion>Those are goggles.
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10:40<z-MaTRiX>will a simple ND filter pass IR ?
10:40<z-MaTRiX>or ND IR too ?
10:40<Arafangion>I would imagine it'll block some IR, but not all.
10:41<Arafangion>But I haven't actually done this stuff.
10:41<Arafangion>You won't have a perfect solution that suits all situations with the one camera, which is why I'm suggesting two.
10:41<z-MaTRiX>so either i need ND filter, or exposed negatives
10:41<Arafangion>And using software to merge them.
10:42<z-MaTRiX>to block visible portion a bit
10:42<z-MaTRiX>or thin mylar foil
10:42<z-MaTRiX>that will block all visible colors
10:42<z-MaTRiX>or at least 99%
10:43<Arafangion>Sorry. :)
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10:51<supermop>good morning
10:51<@Terkhen>hi supermop
10:52<supermop>how is everyone doing this morning/afternoon
10:55<supermop>Hi Andy,
10:56<supermop>anything fun going on with your trucks or boats?
11:00<@Alberth>moin supermop
11:00<@Alberth>(which is *not* good morning :) )
11:02<andythenorth>supermop: I'm adding a boat that Pikka drew years ago
11:05-!-andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
11:08<@Alberth>he's out buying new paint for the boat :)
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11:11<LordAro>ha, i log on to tell Alberth about the pm i sent, only to refresh tt-f and discover that he's already replied :)
11:15<@Alberth>sorry for being so fast :)
11:16<@Alberth>i hope it is useful
11:16<LordAro>btw, the '?' was just for testing purposes
11:17<LordAro>it was instead of a 'strip' 'function'
11:17<LordAro>which i couldn't work out how to implement
11:20<@Alberth>ok :)
11:23<@Alberth>it is quite difficult to 'reset' yourself and look at a problem asif you have never seen it, and find a completely new approach.
11:24<LordAro>you want a go? :P
11:24<@Alberth>it is one of the more fun parts of programming imho :)
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11:25<@Alberth>shall we trade? I solve the readme problem, you program a gui?
11:25<LordAro>errr.... :L
11:27<LordAro>looking at your pm, i like the idea of that function
11:27<LordAro>seems 'simpler' somehow :)
11:28<@Alberth>you have less context to distract you
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>we really need to solve the articulation callback
11:28<LordAro>although i'll still have to deal with inside the lines
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>we're almost out of IDs
11:29<@Alberth>LordAro: yeah, that is now more clear too :)
11:29<LordAro>hopefully :)
11:29<LordAro>so, another reimplementation coming up :)
11:30<LordAro>i'll let you know if (read: when) i run into moar problems :)
11:30<@Alberth>I had no doubts about that :)
11:32<LordAro>i must say, c# is a much nicer language
11:32<@Alberth>it is?
11:32<@Alberth>due to having a string?
11:32<LordAro>and the lack of pointers :)
11:33<LordAro>i've been making a calculator in it
11:33<Arafangion>Oh, C# has pointers, they're just very awkward to use :)
11:34<@Alberth>oh, but pointers are so much fun and so very powerful :) but indeed, you need to be careful with them
11:34<@Alberth>Arafangion: just more carefully hidden :)
11:34<Arafangion>Alberth: You referring to how references can be used in unsafe mode, as opposed to the address of a pinned object?
11:34<LordAro>*lack of needing to use pointers :)
11:35<@Alberth>Arafangion: I was just making an educated guess, I have read about C#, but never programmed in it
11:35<Arafangion>But yes, I agree, C# is a very nice language, except for it's generics.
11:36*LordAro sees the words 'references, 'address', 'pinned' and 'object' in the same sentence and runs and hides
11:36<@Alberth>Arafangion: try to use Java with generics, and do some reflection :)
11:36*Arafangion hates Java.]
11:36*Alberth hates java too
11:37<LordAro>everybody hates java! :)
11:37<Arafangion>I actually prefer C++'s templates.
11:37*valhallasw likes jython
11:37<valhallasw>or, well, it makes java bearable
11:37<Arafangion>IronPython is also rather impressive.
11:38*Arafangion is supposed to be asleep, so adios all!
11:38<@Alberth>I am not sure why though, mostly for it bloatiness, but that seems just a common pattern among java programmers, not something endorsed by the language itself
11:40<valhallasw>Alberth: I can't hear you. Maybe you should use a CharacterGenerator to create characters to insert into the IRCLine generated by the IRCLineGenerator
11:40<@Alberth>valhallasw: yeah, but who invents such crap in the first place?
11:40<valhallasw>I have been trying to create a importer for jira - which is typical java software: 20 million generators, but no way to actually inject your own classes
11:41<valhallasw>oh, sorry, that should have been a Factory, of course
11:42<valhallasw>Alberth: the /idea/ is it allows you to adapt small pieces easily
11:42<valhallasw>but in the end, it doesn't really work
11:44<+michi_cc>Like that singular 'business logic' line in the call stack picture? :)
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11:45<valhallasw>yes, and it's impossible to actually change anything in the rest of the call stack
11:46<valhallasw>you could create a derived class, but there is no way to tell the software somewhere higher in the stack to load *that* class
11:47<LordAro>Alberth: surely for a test case like: " \n" would be to just leave it, as the leading whitespace is up to the author, not ottd
11:48<LordAro>...or take out all of it, assuming that's the whole line
11:48<LordAro>hmmm... this is looking to be harder than i intially reckoned :)
11:49<@Alberth>I was thinking a line like "abc\n \ndef\n", which imo should be reduced to "abc\n\ndef\n"
11:50<@Alberth>and I'd strip leading whitespace entirely (which is easy once you can remove trailing whitespace)
11:50<@Alberth>LordAro: but don't think about doing stuff over multiple lines yet.
11:51<@Alberth>you can do that later, once you can handle single lines.
11:52<LordAro>well then, if i can just reduce it to '\0' that shoudl be easier
11:52<@Alberth>ie make as many layers of functions as you need, and do one problem at a time, or you'll drown
11:53<LordAro>where should StripWhitespace() go? (file)
11:53<LordAro>(i know it doesn't really matter, but i'm ocd like that :)
11:54<@Alberth>directly reduce to \0 is indeed easier for that single case, but at the same time you break the general picture of the layers of functions, and make the problem as a whole more complicated
11:55<@Alberth>somewhere in your window class?
11:55<@Alberth>it is just a few lines, so you may not even need the function once you have written the code
11:55<@Alberth>ie it is just a helper to focus yourself on the problem you are solving now
11:56<LordAro>ah, ok
11:59<LordAro>StripWhitespace(linestart, p[+1]) <-- would be reasonable, yes?
11:59<LordAro>fitted in where the current newline handler is now
11:59<LordAro>(after the 'tmp' for loop)
12:06<@Alberth>I'd do StripWhitespace(linestart, p), since *p is either \n or \0
12:06<@Alberth>your version would be p+1 or &p[+1] if you insist :)
12:07<LordAro>but isn't the second parameter supposed to be 1 afte_ the line?
12:07<@Alberth>depends on what you see as 'after'
12:08<@Alberth>but then it would be p if *p == '\0' and it would be p+1 if *p == '\n'
12:08<@Alberth>ie \0 is not part of the line
12:09<@Alberth>if you like this better, fine by me :)
12:10<@Alberth>that's the beauty of software, you can do it in many ways. It is also the main problem of software, you can do the same thing in so many ways :)
12:11<@Alberth>except they are not *exactly* the same, usually :(
12:13<LordAro>gah, silly programming :)
12:16<@Alberth>michi_cc: nice article
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12:19<@planetmaker>apropos... how's the readme patch going, LordAro?
12:22<LordAro>badly - Alberth keeps making me re-write it :)
12:23<@Alberth>yeah, I can still trick him into doing more and more rewrites easily :)
12:24<@planetmaker>LordAro: don't feel bad about that ;-)
12:24<@Alberth>although I offered him a way out, and he didn't want it :)
12:24<@planetmaker>that happens often (not because Alberth is mean or something, not at all)
12:24<@planetmaker>what way did you offer?
12:25<@Alberth>which I find very good of LordAro :)
12:26<LordAro>thanks :)
12:26<@Alberth>planetmaker: I said "I am not sure whether you should make further changes, it may get complicated or even fail to work". That didn't stop him :)
12:26<@planetmaker>good :-)
12:27<LordAro>did you say that? i can't remember...
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12:27<@Alberth>something in that order :)
12:28<@Alberth>planetmaker: Then I said that this needs solving
12:28<@planetmaker>yes, that would be nice to see solved
12:29<@planetmaker>as tab / space layout is the only crude layout available.
12:29<LordAro>imo, that would only be solved by forcing a monospace font
12:29<@planetmaker>maybe a fixed width font should be used
12:29<@planetmaker>or at least a fixed widths per character allocated. Like max(width of all characters) stepping per character
12:30<@planetmaker>yes, that'd be solved that way. Maybe not the worst decision
12:30<@planetmaker>txt files with some formating are well viewed with monospace
12:32<@Alberth>LordAro: but.. software is flexible, and monospaced font is not going to happen. So we need a different solution.
12:32<@Alberth>I was thinking to see whether you can look at previous lines and derive a pixel offset from it
12:33<LordAro>"max(width of all characters) stepping per character" sounds good to me
12:33<@Alberth>it's not. If you program it, you'll immediately see why
12:34<@Alberth>fonts are designed for some inter-character spacing. If you change it, it messes up readability
12:35<LordAro>ignore that idea then :)
12:38<@Alberth>in the example, you basically need to see that " Intro ..." starts at the 3rd character, and should be aligned with lengthof("- "), the first higher line with a shorter indent than 3 with a word also starting at the 3rd character
12:39<@Alberth>that should work for this example, how good it works in general is something I cannot oversee
12:40<LordAro>i g2g
12:40<@Alberth>ok, have fun, and bye
12:40<LordAro>cya next time :)
12:40<@planetmaker>Alberth: it will fail terribly, if you find a table
12:40<LordAro>there _will_ be a next time :)
12:41<@planetmaker>enjoy, LordAro
12:41<@Alberth>yeah, it only aligns at the first word of a line
12:41<@Alberth>it may be possible to generalize, but I don't see how
12:42<@Alberth>if you add a markup language it is easier :p
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12:44<Eddi|zuHause>we currently have 46 articulated IDs free, and 25 engines miss articulated parts (often needs two IDs, sometimes one)
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>and things like bavarian steam engines, which we did not add yet, also need tenders
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12:52<@Alberth>and 400 engines is not a bit over the top ?
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: no, it's quite alright if you use the company selection
12:54<@Alberth>wouldn't it be possible to make a newgrf for each company selection instead?
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12:55<Eddi|zuHause>that's quite unweildy
12:55<b_jonas>a newgrf option at least?
12:55<b_jonas>newgrf argument I mean
12:55<Eddi|zuHause>that's what it does
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>you have the eras 1880-1920, 1920-1950, 1950-1990 and 1990+, each of which allows you to select one major railway company of that era
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>so you can e.g set 1880-1920 to prussian state railway, 1920-1950 to DRG, 1950-1990 to DR (east) and 1990- to DBAG
12:58<Eddi|zuHause>or set all to SBB
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>or some more or less weird other combinations
12:59<b_jonas>does the grf give you early bridges?
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>no, why would it?
13:00<b_jonas>because in reality road vehicle bridges have existed at least 4000 years ago
13:01<b_jonas>is there some other grf for early bridges?
13:05<@Alberth>one newgrf for each era then? :)
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13:12<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: that's unweildy as well
13:12<@Alberth>hmm, too bad
13:13<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: for example if you want to start in 1950, you have to duplicate some of the vehicles from the pre-1950 era, and check for active grfids to hide them
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>or you won't have vehicles in 1950 to start with
13:14<@Alberth>good point
13:16<@Alberth>hmm, how do you switch company then?
13:17<@Alberth>I don't get vehicles from the 'old' company and I do get vehicles from the 'new' company?
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>you set the 4 companys at game start
13:18<@Alberth>I don't see what happens if I start at say 1950 with my game
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>you have vehicles from all 4 companies you selected
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>they become available and disappear
13:20<@Alberth>but company A was before 1920 only, I get them too?
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>only if they are available that long
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13:20<@Alberth>oh, you switch much less hard than I expected
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>no, the cuts were not that clean historically either :)
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>e.g. the DRG bought some vehicles that the prussian railway planned
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13:22<Eddi|zuHause>and the DB continued to build some engines that the DRG started
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>so there is naturally some overlap
13:23<@Alberth>but if you split on era, and I start at say 1970, it should work, I think. There are just some years that are bad for starting.
13:23<@Alberth>(just like I start at 1880 exactly :) )
13:24<@Alberth>(just trying to understand whether there are similar problems elsewhere)
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is the era-switches are the natural dates to start at :)
13:24<Eddi|zuHause>1950 is the default start date, 1920 is a very common start date
13:25<@Alberth>what is the problem with requiring all newgrfs to be present?
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>that the user will do stupid things
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>and then complain that it doesn't work
13:29*Alberth does not see that yet
13:36<@Alberth>ECS does it too
13:37<@Alberth>although in a more composing way
14:01<+michi_cc>Well, the CB 16 limitation could be hacked around by using one of the 0x100+ registers as additional return value, I just don't know if there are some NewGRFs or Act2 operations that would use them as well. Otherwise there's finally a reason to do GRFv8 :)
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: could just add another callback
14:02<+michi_cc>Well, yes, but that feels just as hack-ish
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>i think it suffices for now, but we don't have a lot of space for improvement
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14:05<@Alberth>'for now' is unfortunately more like 'from now until hell freezes over' :(
14:05<frosch123>the additional varact2 scopes would also solve the id issue
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: i mean "the grf will likely not explode in the next 2 days if we don't implement a new articulated callback"
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>and in the worst case we can do some more hacky stuff in the grf
14:08*planetmaker is relieved ;-) - I don't like bombs on my HDD ;-)
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i could add an "rm ~ -rf" for some unsuspecting people that do "hg pull -u && make" without checking the changelog :p
14:11<@planetmaker>in the makefile?
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>for example
14:11<@planetmaker>hm... reminds me on one changeset I've seen posted / linked here in a project
14:11<@planetmaker>which kinda had something like that
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14:12<Eddi|zuHause>what difference a space can make :p
14:12<@planetmaker>hehe, yeah
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14:16<Eddi|zuHause>""Der Chaos Computer Club heißt so, weil er genau dieses Selbstverständnis hat", sagte [der bayrische Innenminister] Herrmann der Münchener Boulevardzeitung und wies jegliche Abstimmung mit dem CCC in der Frage zurück. "Das kann kein Partner sein für eine Behörde, die für Recht und Sicherheit steht.""
14:17<Eddi|zuHause>how can people say so many stupid things in one sentence?
14:18<Eddi|zuHause>and then still become so highly ranked polititions?
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14:19<@Alberth>as long as the public is equally uneducated, it is possible without problem
14:19<+michi_cc>frosch's GRFv8 patch for CB14, just with a temp register as return:
14:20<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: also the CCC did not exactly pick the best possible name if you aim for "Recht und Sicherheit"
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: "Recht und Sicherheit" is a euphemism for "police state"
14:21<@planetmaker>hm... is there anything which prevents this patch?
14:21<frosch123>michi_cc: <- cb14 with 14 bit result
14:21<+michi_cc>frosch123: What do you think I copied from? ;)
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14:22<@planetmaker>was there a reason for 14 bit instead of 15?
14:23<frosch123>mirror bit?
14:23<+michi_cc>Using 0x100 fails if somebody is crazy enoughtno use a RandAct2 with relative scope in the atric callback
14:23<+michi_cc>planetmaker: highest bit is for indicating callback result
14:23<@planetmaker>hm, yes
14:24<@planetmaker>could be done via register, though, couldn't it?
14:24<frosch123>14 return bits is plenty
14:24<frosch123>no need for registers
14:24<+michi_cc>Duh, relative scope in an unbuilt vehicle real makes no sense, so 0x100 is theoretically safe
14:24<frosch123>michi_cc: too much magic :)
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>but we have 16bit vehicle ids!!
14:25<+michi_cc>But 14 return bits in CB 14 would either really need GRFv8 or a new CB num, wouldn't it?
14:25<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you should leave some for the other vehicle types, and for other grfs
14:26<frosch123>michi_cc: yes, but better grfv8 than more mess
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>well, we could just not mask out the high bits of current cb14
14:26<Eddi|zuHause>that would be a silly hack, but should not disturb grfv7
14:26<+michi_cc>You're going to commit your patch queue then? ;)
14:27<frosch123>maybe i should :)
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>how about 32bit callback results in grfv8? :)
14:28<frosch123>that's grfv9
14:49<@planetmaker>then we skip v8? :-P
14:49<frosch123>we could call it grfv32 :p
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14:49<frosch123>every variable is 32 bit
14:50<frosch123>oh, 32bpp, good point :p
14:51<@planetmaker>well... does it make sense to have every var 32bit?
14:51<frosch123>isn't that what nml does?
14:51<@planetmaker>would make some things easier
14:51<frosch123>but i actually meant all those 80+x vars
14:51<@planetmaker>uhm... NML can only use the size the specs allow ;-)
14:51<frosch123>with arbitrary ttd restrictions
14:52<frosch123>date, speed and such
14:52<@planetmaker>shouldn't that become part of v8 then, too
14:52<@planetmaker>i.e. if we change it, change it big time?
14:53<frosch123>i don't think they are as important
14:53<frosch123>most stuff has 40+x vars anyway
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15:04<+michi_cc>Is there anything currently where it would make sense to generally switch to long format dates and abolish short dates completely?
15:07<frosch123>there are such weird things like "last service date"
15:07<frosch123>while noone actually cares about that date, some vehicle sets use it to switch date-dependent stuff only in depots
15:08<@Alberth>ie something you should do with a 'you got serviced' cb :)
15:09<@Alberth>or an 'arrived at depot' cb
15:09<@planetmaker>michi_cc: yes: last service date for example
15:09<frosch123>yes, except there is no persistent storage for vehicles
15:09<@planetmaker>oh. I'm very slow :-)
15:10<@planetmaker>Alberth: yes... if such thing existed. And one might be interested also in the time since the last service
15:10<@planetmaker>for example one could display a rusty version, if a train never services
15:11<@planetmaker>which is an idea I still like since I first got it :-P
15:11<@Alberth>but you never tried it for real :)
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15:11<andythenorth>means drawing stuff
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15:11<andythenorth>I considered it and ruled it out
15:11<andythenorth>might be actually visible on ships though :o
15:12<@Alberth>it might be not relevant enough to show to the user
15:12<@planetmaker>Alberth: it first means to get sprites
15:13<@planetmaker>thus it's (for me) of the category "want to try, but needs much work and is not urgent at all"
15:13<andythenorth>32bit everything :P
15:13<frosch123>ships should be able to sink :p
15:13<@Alberth>new disaster :)
15:13<andythenorth>frosch123: that's a worthwhile project
15:13<@planetmaker>breakdown sprite: "empty"
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15:14<@planetmaker>or rescue boat
15:14<@Terkhen>provide sprites for sinking ships :)
15:14<andythenorth>please please please please please can we fix smoke btw?
15:14<frosch123>planetmaker: to make it ttd style the ship should just use the default explosion animation :p
15:15<@planetmaker>so the attack figher should sink it?
15:15<@Alberth>gas explosion :)
15:16<@Terkhen>submarine with torpedos
15:16<@planetmaker>ship sinks, submarine appears shortly after ;-)
15:16<@Alberth>we already have a submarine
15:16<@planetmaker>currently only curious ones
15:16<@Alberth>but it was quite peaceful so far :)
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15:30<Eddi|zuHause>i have never actually seen the sumarine
15:32<@planetmaker>you need to enable disasters
15:33<Eddi|zuHause>see :)
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15:35<Eddi|zuHause>the tilting bonus is fixed currently?
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>because some non-tilting SBB engines could benefit from a curve speed bonus
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15:38<@planetmaker>it's fixed. Yes.
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15:44<@planetmaker>woah... have translators really been so lazy?
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15:53<@planetmaker>no commit
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16:21<appe>i think i found a bug.
16:23<appe>using the 'building allowed while on pause' option, i create a train in a depot. when unpausing, the trains stays in the depot, with a "green" light and no visible orders, even though it has a designated dito.
16:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23051 /branches/1.1/ (5 files in 4 dirs):
16:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: AI backlog was to short to fully display the backtrace of some AI crashes [FS#4798] (r23012)
16:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: When the last used server is deleted from the list also clear the last used server if it is the same [FS#4791] (r23011)
16:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Make sure temporary storage is cleared before test and exec runs for DoCommands so NewGRF callbacks cannot change the result between the runs (r22996)
16:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Tile was cleared before the object-placement callback was run, resulting in possible differences in test and exec run [FS#4775] (r22994)
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16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23052 /branches/1.1/ (11 files in 7 dirs):
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Palette conversion windows to DOS for light house / stadium animated colour was mixed up (r23032)
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: For the admin 'bots' there was no distinction between bankruptcy and manual removal of companies even though the API suggested that [FS#4804] (r23031)
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Always show a chat message and send an admin packet when a new company is made [FS#4796] (r23030)
16:54<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Pass bottom of dropdown item rather than bottom of dropdown window, so the dropdown gets drawn better with different font sizes (r23018)
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17:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23053 /branches/1.1/ (9 files in 2 dirs):
17:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
17:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] When vehicles break down, update the image cache after changing the vehicle state to make fish happy (r23050)
17:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Use the same forest-check for the vegetation-map colour as for nearby station names [FS#4810] (r23049)
17:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: Check that the selected font size is valid the font face in use and choose the nearest size to that selected if not. Font metrics should then just work (r23038)
17:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: - Fix: The last custom playlist items went lost when the files in the .obm are not contiguous [FS#4776] (r23035, r23034, r23033)
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17:15<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23054 /branches/1.1/src/lang/ (19 files): [1.1] -Backport from trunk: language updates
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17:25<appe>ooh, rubidium.
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17:53<@Terkhen>good night
17:58<TrueBrain>Whity: 9 out of the 3M queries take 1+seconds to execute :D
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19:27<mienai>Hello, is anyone on?
19:28<FFLaguna>On what?
19:28<mienai>on this channel
19:29<mienai>Anyways, do you know if here's anyway to mod without recompiling?
19:29<Elukka>no way to install patches without recompiling
19:29<Elukka>grfs are easy to install
19:29<Elukka>i really, really wish there was a better/easier way to patch the game, but alas
19:30<Eddi|zuHause>what kind of "mod"?
19:30<Arafangion>What's wrong with recompiling?
19:30<mienai>yea i know i moded it and every time i want to update i have to recompile
19:30<mienai>it's annoying
19:30<Elukka>no other game i've ever seen requires one to recompile it to mod the game
19:31<Arafangion>Elukka: Most other games use a scripting language for much of the logic.
19:31<Elukka>it's very inconvenient, and it simply means the majority of people will never play with any patches
19:31<mienai>yes exactly
19:31<Eddi|zuHause>lots of Civ IV mods had to be recompiled each time a game update was installed
19:31<mienai>i was wondering if anyone was doing something about it
19:32<Elukka>eddi, they don't require you to learn and set up a development environment to do it though
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>no, openttd does not require that either
19:32<Elukka>you get these great patches like cargodist that would probably get a whole bunch of players, but because they're so difficult to install you get like three people playing them
19:32<Eddi|zuHause>you can perfectly well stick with precompiled binaries
19:33<Elukka>only if they exist
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19:34<Arafangion>Elukka: It's trivial on non-windows and non-mac systems, so... Provide a binary for windows if it matters, and let teh linux users take care of themselves.
19:34<mienai>So is anyone adding easier "mod-ability" to ottd?
19:34<Eddi|zuHause>mienai: more easy than clicking on "add newgrfs" button?
19:35<Elukka>don't think so, as everyone who plays them thinks it's perfectly fine to jump through fifty hoops to install them :P
19:35<Elukka>by devs, for devs
19:35<mienai>i'm talking about mods that modify some of the deep parts of the game
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>mienai: more easy than typing "make"?
19:35<mienai>like the area train stations service
19:35<Elukka>to be fair i don't have any idea how a more user friendly patch system would work
19:36<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: there used to be "buildottd". no idea if that still works
19:36<Elukka>it doesn't seem to
19:36<Elukka>i thought it was a great idea
19:37<mienai>So the answer to my question is no??
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19:38<Elukka>yep :/
19:41<Arafangion>It's hard to beat ./configure && make && make install
19:41<Arafangion>Perhaps you could have ./configure modified to also present patch options.
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19:43<mienai>well the prblem I had was that i had to dig through the code to find the variable i wanted to modify
19:43<mienai>not so much the compiling
19:43<Arafangion>Well, you'd be /making/ the patch, then.
19:45<Elukka>a large portion of players are on windows, though
19:45<mienai>i was wondering maybe someone else felt that some easier way of modifying the mechanics of the game
19:45<mienai>should be implemented
19:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i said... we do have an easy way to modify game mechanics. it's called newgrf
19:46*Arafangion burnt his coffee today. :(
19:46*Arafangion cries
19:47<Eddi|zuHause>who drinks coffee at 2AM?
19:47<Arafangion>It's 10:47am.
19:49<mienai>you an aussie?
19:49<mienai>g'day mate
19:49<Arafangion>G'day. :)
19:50<Elukka>now i can't help but read all your lines with an exaggerated australian accent
19:50<mienai>me too
19:50<Arafangion>Elukka: I'm deaf, so I try not to speak. ;)
19:50<Arafangion>Elukka: ButifyouwannaIllspeakwithanaussieaccent.
19:54<mienai>Well thanks for clarification. it's time for dinner here
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21:44<FFLaguna>Is there a keyboard shortcut to DELETE a signal while the signal tool is selected?
21:45<FFLaguna>It's annoying to click and back forth between bulldozer button
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23:17-!-rait is now known as irx
23:19<irx>i'm having some funky pathfinder behaviour
23:19<irx>trains avoiding one lane of a station
23:20<irx>uploaded screenshot + savegame to
23:20<irx>any chance anyone could take a look and see if i'm missing something obvious?
23:22<supermop__->which track is the problem?
23:23<irx>the outermost monorail
23:24<supermop__->its not scientific, but try re building the signal after that platform
23:25<supermop__->what if you build an additional signal
23:25<supermop__->the other two have 2 signals
23:25<irx>doesn't work
23:26<supermop__->what about sending the train through at danger?
23:26<irx>still waiting for a free track
23:27<FFLaguna>irx - Put one-way signals on the other side of the station, too
23:27<FFLaguna>Like you have them on the right side of the station, put them immediately adjacent to the station on the left side
23:28<supermop__->you could also turn on path highlighting to see if something weird is apparent there
23:28<FFLaguna>Try my idea ;)
23:29<irx>i did put them next to the station, didn't work
23:29<irx>however, path highlighting shows that the tracks are occupied for some reason
23:30<supermop__->try reversing the train
23:30<irx>no need
23:30<irx>removed the "occupied" tracks, rebuilt them and it worked
23:31<supermop__->yeah sometimes odd stuff like that happens
23:31<irx>yeah, the savegame's from 1.0.0 ...
23:31<irx>thanks for your idea's :)
---Logclosed Sun Oct 23 00:00:01 2011