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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-23

---Logopened Sun Oct 23 00:00:01 2011
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01:53<z-MaTRiX>can i soak a film negative in naoh or something to make it "developed"? only for being used as visible light filter...
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03:38<@Terkhen>good morning
03:44<@planetmaker>moin
03:44<@Terkhen>hi planetmaker
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03:45<V453000>hi
03:49<@SmatZ>hello
03:50<@Terkhen>hi V453000 and SmatZ :)
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03:55<V453000>hi beer :)
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04:11<z-MaTRiX>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1
04:11<z-MaTRiX>wow ?
04:11<z-MaTRiX>accurate rasterization
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04:13<Eddi|zuHause>you've been at this for days, and i still have no clue what you are actually talking about
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05:20<Wolf01>hello
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06:01<frosch123>http://www.dilbert.com/ <- the last two pictures apply so nicely to bananas :)
06:01<planetmaker>to bananas?
06:02<frosch123>well, bananas users
06:04<planetmaker>hehe :-)
06:04<Eddi|zuHause>why must i immedially think of Darkvater...? :p
06:07<frosch123>yeah, i also always think of dv, when reading dilbert :p
06:09<@SmatZ>;-0
06:09<@SmatZ>:-)
06:16<Ammler>he, nice
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06:42<Arafangion>"four" is a very smart answer, actually.
06:42<Arafangion>It corresponds to teh four primary applications on the iphone.
06:43<Arafangion>Mail, Safari, Contacts/Phone, and Maps.
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>that's like saying "the four elements"
06:43<__ln__>while we all know there are five elements
06:44<planetmaker>:-)
06:44<planetmaker>crazy but great movie
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>and the fifth looks like mila yovowitch?
06:44<__ln__>correct
06:44<b_jonas>the fifth is Camera
06:45<Arafangion>I think the fifth element is hot. :)
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06:48<frosch123>yay, when discussing the periodic table of the elements in 8th grade, someone asked why there are suddenly more than 4 :)
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>that's practically the same discussion as the next step: why are they "atoms" ("undivisible things") when they suddenly can be divided into electrons, neutrons and protons?
06:50<Arafangion>"We've learnt a few things in our long lives..."
06:50<Arafangion>Eddi|zuHause: How can you divide a wave? Particles and waves are the same thing, right? ;)
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>it was the full knowledge of a past time that lives on, but gets overtaken by new development
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>the "four elements" logic is over 2000 years old, the "periodic table" logic is maybe 200 years old
06:52<@Alberth>like neutrinos flying faster than light :p
06:55<b_jonas>the "four elements" is not "logic", it's one of the ramblings of Aristoteles taken for granted for a few hundred years
06:55<b_jonas>I hate Aristoteles. Why did everyone believe him without question?
06:56<b_jonas>The periodic table is actually science, so even if they're not really atoms, people did have a good deal of evidence to believe they are.
06:56<@Alberth>much like you don't question eg Einstein
06:56<@Alberth>b_jonas: they hadn't invented 'science' at the time of Aristoteles
06:56<b_jonas>Alberth: you do. Einstein did science, supported by measurements, such as that solar eclipse star thingy and the Mercury orbit thingy.
06:57<b_jonas>Alberth: yep, that's the problem
06:57<@Alberth>what if 'science' turns out to be the wrong approach?
06:58<@Alberth>ie you take for granted that it is the right way to achieve knowledge
06:58<virrpanna>well then you wouldn't have computers CASE CLOSED
06:59<@Alberth>maybe in 3000 years people say "those people were stupid, they believed science could bring answers"
06:59<b_jonas>By the way, who invented science? (a) Bacon, (b) Kepler, (c) Galilei, (d) Descartes, (e) Huygens, (f) Newton?
06:59<planetmaker>in 3000 years the answer will be given by the iBrain ;-)
07:00<b_jonas>Alberth: yep, like virrpanna says: http://xkcd.com/54/
07:00<b_jonas>science gave us GPSes
07:00<@Alberth>virrpanna: I am not arguing that science didn't bring us much, just showing that what we consider 'stupid' with 4 elements is exactly the same as what we do now
07:00<b_jonas>what did faith in Aristotle give us?
07:00<b_jonas>sure, there are probably many errors and wrong assumptions we're believeing in
07:00<@Alberth>the idea that we could do better, eg by doing proper science
07:00<b_jonas>but at least we have a good reason to believe in them
07:01<@Alberth>what makes you think people 2000 years ago did not have good reasons?
07:04<b_jonas>people 2000 years ago might have had good reasons, my problem is that 1000 years ago people still believed in Aristotle, who by that time lived 1000 years ago.
07:04<@Alberth>Aristoteles ordered the world in one way, we found a better way, and it gave us much progress. However, I think it would be stupid to assume 'science' is the ultimate way
07:05<planetmaker>b_jonas: but is what Aristole wrong? How much of it? And why?
07:05<planetmaker>*wrote
07:05<planetmaker>How much of current science papers are wrong?
07:05<@Alberth>b_jonas: just like we believe in science, although its author is long dead?
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07:05<b_jonas>He was sometimes right and sometimes wrong. The point is that people had faith in him without trying to verify his results.
07:06<planetmaker>scientific knowledge knows no age. It can be verified or proven wrong at each time
07:06<planetmaker>thus age is not a valid argument path
07:06<valhallasw>b_jonas: without trying to *falsify* his results, more importantly ;-)
07:06<frosch123>[13:05] <planetmaker> How much of current science papers are wrong? <- wrong or faked?
07:07<valhallasw>http://retractionwatch.wordpress.com/ ;-)
07:08<planetmaker>frosch123: both together.
07:08<@Alberth>b_jonas: failing to falsify a result does not make it correct
07:08<planetmaker>Alberth: b_jonas: another important thing in science is occam's razor
07:09<planetmaker>or I could scientifically claim the presence of god as well ;-)
07:09<Eddi|zuHause><frosch123> [13:05] <planetmaker> How much of current science papers are wrong? <- wrong or faked? <-- in fields with strong economic background (e.g. pharmacy)?
07:09<planetmaker>I don't really want to know. And no, I don't want to know how statistics is "used" in that field at all
07:10<planetmaker>I've seen too much when I had medical students in the physics lab course for half a year
07:10<valhallasw>planetmaker: then again, astronomers and physicists are not exactly heroes of statistics either
07:10<valhallasw>they suffer from the Not Invented Here syndrome, and try to do all the math themselves
07:11<planetmaker>not few thought that boobs were the better arguments than a brief look in the eperiment description. Disgusting tbh
07:11<valhallasw>while all the sociology/medical/etc students just use SPSS and click the right buttons
07:11<planetmaker>valhallasw: sure. But their errors are at a at least slightly higher math level ;-)
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>valhallasw: what scientific use is a "right button" that you do not know how to reproduce their results?
07:13<valhallasw>Eddi|zuHause: the 'right button' is just a t-test
07:13<valhallasw>but hey, are you sure Origin actually plots the right graph? And that LabVIEW doesn't actually mangle your data?
07:13<b_jonas>well boobs _are_ a good argument for stuff
07:14<b_jonas>especially if delivered personally
07:14<planetmaker>valhallasw: and in a reviewed physics journal you couldn't publish re-invented rule to approximate an integral by the sum of rectangles
07:15<valhallasw>...and besides, how many physicists actually publish their data reduction code?
07:15<planetmaker>(like medicine just showed feasible there)
07:15<planetmaker>valhallasw: needed is only access to the raw data
07:16<planetmaker>and a decent description of data treatment. Not all the code
07:16<planetmaker>but the description of data treatment more often than not is a bit lacking tbh
07:17<planetmaker>valhallasw: http://fliptomato.wordpress.com/2007/03/19/medical-researcher-discovers-integration-gets-75-citations/ <-- :-)
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07:18<valhallasw>planetmaker: well, at least these /medical/ people describe how they did their integrals!
07:19<planetmaker>:-)
07:19<planetmaker>but well. calculating an integral is a solved problem
07:19<planetmaker>in a numerical sense, if you're just interested in the area under a curve
07:19<planetmaker>why would you describe that anew?
07:20<valhallasw>because citations
07:20<valhallasw>and citation index!
07:20<planetmaker>(of course, it needs to be "nice", e.g. continuous etc)
07:20<@SmatZ>:-D :-D
07:20<valhallasw>and probably really believing you've discovered something new
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07:34<z-MaTRiX>can i soak a film negative in naoh or something to make it "developed"? only for being used as visible light filter...
07:35<z-MaTRiX>planetmaker<< heres something cool with accurate rasterization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1
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07:35<planetmaker>I saw that, yes.
07:37<planetmaker>it's certainly an idea. But on the cost of some sensitivity
07:38<@SmatZ>z-MaTRiX: hello :) why do you need to have the film developed to use it as a filter?
07:39<@SmatZ>just taking the film out of the roll won't do the job?
07:39<z-MaTRiX>hii
07:39<z-MaTRiX>:)
07:39<z-MaTRiX>because i have removed the IR filter from the camera and its now overexposed
07:39<z-MaTRiX>an overexposed developed color negative will filter out visible colors, and let through IR
07:39<@SmatZ>developed film works as an IR filter?
07:39<@SmatZ>oh
07:40<@SmatZ>interesting :)
07:40<z-MaTRiX>it will work as an IR-pass filter
07:40<z-MaTRiX>:)
07:40<z-MaTRiX>or i may buy a filter, or get developed negative from someone
07:41<z-MaTRiX>i only have undeveloped negative ;/
07:41<Zuu>Won't a developed negative give you a picture that wil get in the way?
07:41<planetmaker>not if it's a black image :-P
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07:41<planetmaker>e.g. develop unexposed film
07:42<Zuu>Oh, I'm sure I got some developed black pictures somewhere. :-)
07:42<z-MaTRiX>well if i pull out the negative and let it sunbath a bit it will not likely to contain an image
07:43<z-MaTRiX>but still needs developing
07:44<z-MaTRiX>tried video tape but its not cool
07:44<planetmaker>z-MaTRiX: if you sun-bath it it will become surprisingly transparent
07:45<planetmaker>also in VIS
07:45<z-MaTRiX>well its a negative if i expose it it will become black no?
07:45<z-MaTRiX>i dont need the pictures
07:45<z-MaTRiX>just the negative
07:46<z-MaTRiX>"colour print film negative"
07:47<z-MaTRiX>never used films actually
07:48<z-MaTRiX>only digital cameras
07:51<planetmaker>z-MaTRiX: it's a _negative_
07:51<planetmaker>thus a black image has a transparent negative
07:51<planetmaker>and a black negative results in a white image
07:51<z-MaTRiX>but i do not need any image
07:51<z-MaTRiX>i cut a piece of the negative
07:51<z-MaTRiX>and use it as filter
07:52<planetmaker>and thus I proved myself wrong. Expose it = white image --> black negative
07:54<z-MaTRiX>heres some interesting read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarizer
07:55<z-MaTRiX>and logic excersize
07:56<z-MaTRiX>exercise
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08:09<z-MaTRiX>:)
08:09<z-MaTRiX>i have lengthened the webcam cable using cat-5e
08:10<z-MaTRiX>(usb data, power + analog audio)
08:16*Zuu got a polarization filter
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08:26<Zuu>I bought it along with my camera, but then after some time I decided to go without it to learn the camera without any filters (apart from UV) before applying filters.
08:26<z-MaTRiX>but it had buillt-in IR filter too no?
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08:27<Zuu>IR filter, not sure.
08:27<planetmaker>virtually every camera has
08:27<valhallasw>every normal camera has a built-in IR filter
08:27<Zuu>Then it have it.
08:27<planetmaker>as optics are not designed for 800 ... 1500nm
08:27<z-MaTRiX>yeeah
08:27<planetmaker>and it just adds blur
08:27<z-MaTRiX>they are only designed 400-650nm
08:28<z-MaTRiX>red green and blue filters
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08:28<z-MaTRiX>IR will pass the RGB matrix
08:28<valhallasw>although I'm wondering why the RGB matrix doesn't do the IR filtering
08:29<z-MaTRiX>this is why it will only be good for black/white IR images
08:29<z-MaTRiX>;<
08:29<valhallasw>...wut? what would be a 'color' IR image, exactly/
08:29<z-MaTRiX>also the lens is not that wideband, it cannot focus 400-1000nm
08:36<planetmaker>valhallasw: colour = image at several wavelengths
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08:37<planetmaker>correct word of course being "false colour" ;-)
08:38<valhallasw>Then I still don't understand z-MaTRiX' point
08:39<valhallasw>if you remove the IR filter, that should only change the result for the pixels with a red mask
08:39<valhallasw>as a blue mask is a \lambda <= 450 nm filter
08:39<valhallasw>an green a 400<=\lambda<=600 bandpass or something like that
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08:43<Zuu>I wonder where the hell did I put my other hearing aid, good I'm going to see a deaf friend. :-)
08:50<Hyronymus>say what?
08:50*MINM whacks Hyronymus on the head
08:51<MINM>that's a bad joke, and you know it >.>
08:51<Hyronymus>yes, I am guilty :(
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08:53<MINM>now, get back to writing sexy newgrfs! ]:-)
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08:59<@peter1138>hmm
08:59<@peter1138>is it more or are the forums slow?
09:00<@peter1138>...
09:00<@peter1138>is it *me*
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09:10<heyhey>morning boys!
09:12<heyhey>anyone up just had some questions on compiling so I can get some patches/grfs to work
09:13<planetmaker>grfs should work w/o compilation. Just download a new nightly
09:14<planetmaker>btw, meta questions suck
09:14<heyhey>lol
09:15<heyhey>I went on the forums, and downloaded this patch for bigger airports
09:15<heyhey>it says to patch/compile and then copy the grf over
09:15<@Alberth>...
09:16<@Alberth>(as in, and your actual question is... ?)
09:16<planetmaker>@topic get 3
09:16<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
09:16<planetmaker>ha. I should remember 3
09:17<planetmaker>and good that it's in the topic. Proves that people don't read :-P
09:17<heyhey>I just need a quick walk through on compiling/patching, not sure exactly how to do it, I tried to follow wiki's directions
09:17<@Alberth>better teach DorpsGek to recognize meta questions :)
09:17<planetmaker>hehe @ Alberth
09:17<planetmaker>heyhey: read the wiki then. Come back with a real question
09:17<@Alberth>heyhey: and first compile without patching to test your compile setup
09:17<planetmaker>the wiki has detailed step by step guides. and ^^^
09:18<heyhey>I did svncheckout to a directory, so I have openttd now without an exe in a folder
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09:19<heyhey>svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk , that's the right url to download it right?
09:19<@Alberth>looks right, let me check the revision of your airport thingie
09:20<heyhey>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=56933&sid=8c969e8bd1c16e3579afe9db21bc227d
09:20<heyhey>huge airports
09:20<@Alberth>r23011
09:21<@Alberth>and trunk is 23050, so update to the older revision first
09:21<planetmaker>"update" :-P
09:21<@Alberth>cd <your directory> ; svn up -r 23011
09:23<@Alberth>heyhey: how did you download the svn checkout?
09:23<heyhey>i have svn checkut/tortoise installed
09:23<heyhey>just not sure where to get the older revision
09:24<@Alberth>ok, find some 'update' button and fill in a revision would be my guess (I never used SVN tortoise)
09:25<@Alberth>did you install a C++ compiler already?
09:25<heyhey>in checkout you have Url of repository, checkout directory, checkout depth
09:25<@Alberth>checkout for the first time only
09:25<heyhey>is tortoisesvn the compiler?
09:25<@Alberth>no, tortoisesvn is just for getting the openttd source code with the right version
09:26<@Alberth>and for committing changes into the repo, if you are a developer
09:26<heyhey>ok I am d/ling buildOTTD now
09:26<planetmaker>hence: read the wiki
09:26<planetmaker>and buildottd is WAY outdated and won't work iirc
09:27<heyhey>any other ones planet you suggest?
09:27<heyhey>planet, I know you love helping new guys get setup!! I can tell :)
09:27<@Alberth>heyhey: the C++ compiler is for making the exe file from the sources
09:28<heyhey>yep, that I understand, just need to find a compiler now since buildottd is out of date
09:28<heyhey>my wife is cooking me eggs while she thinks I am checking out the weather online, heh
09:29<planetmaker>heyhey: no, I don't mind that at all. But expect that someone has at least take some effort, i.e. like having read the obvious instructions
09:29<planetmaker>and more so as I know that the windows compile setup instructions are very new and elaborate
09:29<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/FAQ_development#Now_I_have_got_the_source_code_how_can_I_compile_it.3F <-- here are instructions, it seems
09:29<planetmaker>what for are they there otherwise, if *everyone* would expect to get his or her personal tour?
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09:31<heyhey>planet, what do you use to compile if not buildottd, or are you not using windows?
09:31<planetmaker>I haven't touched that os in years
09:32<@Alberth>heyhey: you've picked the most complicated OS for compiling :)
09:32<@Alberth>but planetmaker is right, the wiki has very good instructions, I am told.
09:32<MINM>well
09:33<MINM>"A quick guide to get started with OpenTTD development on Linux and other *nix-like systems. For help with compiling on various platforms, join #openttd on OFTC. "
09:33<MINM>straight quote from the wiki
09:33<planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_MinGW or http://wiki.openttd.org/MSVC
09:33<@Alberth>MINM: that seems outdated too :(
09:33<planetmaker>the wiki has many pages, MINM ;-P
09:34<MINM>http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_Linux
09:34<planetmaker>well. obviously that's for linux, not windows :-)
09:34<planetmaker>http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling
09:35<heyhey>ya, using win 7
09:35<MINM>I know, but it matters for me >.>
09:35<planetmaker>MINM: it's a wiki :-P
09:35<planetmaker>so, do you bother enough? ;-)
09:36<MINM>ehh, no, not really. :P
09:36<MINM>Im only here for the sexy newgrfs
09:36<heyhey>this is a lot of work just to put in some new patches I found on the forums, I wish they were in the download content where you just click to install heh
09:39<@Alberth>blame MS for not installing the various development tools by default :p
09:39<MINM>patches and newgrfs are something wholly different
09:40<MINM>while patches could be made 'install now', nobody bothered yet, as it would need to close ottd to apply a patch in a lot of cases.
09:40<MINM>among a lot of other difficulties
09:41<V453000>well, do it then :P
09:42<SpComb>mm, self-modifying source code
09:42<SpComb>that would go down well
09:43<MINM>as I said, Im only here for the sexy newgrfs! :P
09:43<MINM>code scares me.
09:44*Alberth throws MINM paper with lots of code on it
09:44<planetmaker>:-D
09:44<planetmaker>MINM: and... what about NewGRF code?
09:45*MINM freaks out, flees
09:45<planetmaker>Like... FIRS has about 39k lines of code
09:45<MINM>same! I just slap the files into my /data, and hope it works
09:52<+glx><@Alberth> blame MS for not installing the various development tools by default :p <-- windows itself takes a lot of space already ;)
09:54<@Alberth>glx: I always wonder how they can take so much space for so little functionality :p
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09:54<+glx>winSXS :)
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09:54<planetmaker>they have a very long chain of backward compatiblity stuff, I guess
10:03-!-Beengalass [~Beengalas@nl105-254-205.student.uu.se] has joined #openttd
10:03<Beengalass>Hi
10:04<Beengalass>I got a question on nml, anyone I can ask?
10:04<planetmaker>@topic get 3
10:04<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
10:07<@Alberth>Beengalass: just try it, and you'll find out whether anyone can answer your question
10:09*Alberth wonders why people expect a 1-on-1 meeting in a group chat room
10:10<Beengalass>Cause people prefer it that way? Not throw out their newbiness in front of everyone?
10:10<planetmaker>I certainly don't. As it means I explain everything 10 times where one suffices
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10:11<planetmaker>independent whether I ask or answer actually
10:11-!-rait [~rait@82.131.27.103.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd
10:11<planetmaker>if I ask: more people can give input
10:11<Beengalass>I'm no coder, but I'm trying to add trains though nml. It works fine, when I do it one by one. But I would prefer having all locos in one file. I used the tutorial, but it doesn't show how to do it.
10:11<planetmaker>if I answer: more people could read and get a clue
10:11<SpComb>just ask your questions, easier that way :)
10:11<@Alberth>Beengalass: the whole idea is that more people know more so you get better answers
10:12-!-rait is now known as irx
10:12<planetmaker>Beengalass: just add the different engine definitions beneath eachother...
10:12<planetmaker>there's no magic at all.
10:13<Beengalass>I did try it, but didn't work. Guess I got a bracket wrong or something. Gonna try again.
10:13<planetmaker>nml gives you an error message then. Which would give you a clue...
10:13<@Alberth>Beengalass: first try 2 trains, if it fails, it is easier to debug
10:14<planetmaker>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ogfx-trains/nightlies/LATEST/log/ogfx-trains.nml <-- like many engines defined in one file
10:15<Beengalass>That is a bit longer that the tutorial one :)
10:16<planetmaker>yes :-P
10:17<planetmaker>you want an even longer one? ;-) http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/LATEST/log/cets.nml
10:17<Beengalass>And there is the reason why I didn't became a coder... :)
10:17<planetmaker>a mere 72k lines :-P
10:19<Beengalass>Anyway, I tried copy /*define the actual train*/ part into an existing nml. But it didn't just took it straight of. Should I copy the entire text? I do not mind if its the same graphics and stuff. I just want to edit the numbers.
10:22<planetmaker>as I see it the tutorial does not link any graphics to the train engine
10:23<planetmaker>which is described in the road vehicle part
10:23<planetmaker>oh, I'm wrong
10:23<planetmaker>you need of course everything from "The code so far" section
10:24<planetmaker>it requires probably the graphics file as shown in that tutorial, too
10:24<planetmaker>and of course the language file
10:24<Beengalass>it works fine when I got 1 train per grf. But right now I got 13 grf for all my locos
10:25<planetmaker>you just append additional engine definitions
10:25<planetmaker>of course only one grf block
10:25<planetmaker>and if something goes wrong you get error messages.
10:26<planetmaker>without that it's hard to tell what did go wrong where
10:27<Beengalass>there is no error
10:27<Beengalass>In the english file I have defined the two current train. Cheap and average. Original I know. First in the code is the average one, but I do only get the cheap one in-game.
10:27<Beengalass>And there is no errors.
10:28<heyhey>does anyone know which grf have boeing/airbus, I tried av8 but it's not in there, I forget which one did
10:28<planetmaker>av8 does
10:29<planetmaker>Beengalass: and you did (re-compile) and put the resulting newgrf into your newgrf folder and started a newgrf or at least reloaded newgrfs (when you overwrite the old newgrf)?
10:29<Beengalass>yes.
10:30<planetmaker>can you paste the code somewhere (not here, maybe paste.openttdcoop.org or similar)?
10:30<@Alberth>path is correct (displayed in the newgrf selection window if you select the newgrf)?
10:30<@Alberth>timestamp of that file is ok?
10:31<Beengalass>sec, phone. I'll return in 15-20 min with uploaded code.
10:31<@Alberth>size of the new newgrf is bigger than the previous ones?
10:31<planetmaker>you have long seconds over there :-P
10:31<Beengalass>Sweden, here everything has frozen so it moves slower ^^
10:35<@Alberth>planetmaker: thicker air, so light travels slower :p
10:36<planetmaker>hm... :-P
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10:37<planetmaker>but... is cesium different over there? "the duration of 9,192,631,770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom"
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10:56<@Alberth>Sorry, I never counted them
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11:01<planetmaker>I tried. But I always fell asleep. It's like counting sheep ;-)
11:04<TrueBrain>only smaller
11:04<@Alberth>counting sheep is quite difficult actually, they don't nicely jump over a fence one by one, they stay together and move constantly
11:04<TrueBrain>you should play less minecraft :P
11:05<@Alberth>minecraft? real-world farm youth experience!
11:06<@Alberth>(I had a friend living at a farm:) )
11:06<TrueBrain>yes, behind a screen, we call that game Minecraft :P
11:07<@Alberth>oh, so I have played it without playing it? nice :)
11:07<TrueBrain>:D
11:09<FFLaguna>Av8 aircraft seem faaaaaaar too expensive
11:09<planetmaker>planes cannot be expensive enough ;-)
11:09<@Alberth>FFLaguna: cheat yourself some money
11:10<planetmaker>or use a basecost mod newgrf
11:10<planetmaker>and decrease plane running and purchase costs
11:11<@Alberth>it is a realistic newgrf, and are people still complaining :p
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11:12<Dany0>hey guys, could you help me up a bit? I'm trying to do an OpenTTD-standard sprite in qubicle constructor. I will need the dimensions but the only dimension I could find is that a tile is diagonally 64 px wide, and I don't think I understood that correctly
11:14<planetmaker>and 31 px high
11:14<planetmaker>"high" actually.
11:14<Dany0>max?
11:14<Dany0>or what do you mean
11:15<Dany0>like buildings can be 31 px high?
11:15<planetmaker>no
11:15<Dany0>I am not interested in this dimension then
11:15<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/parameters_of_tiles.png 2*dimension 1 == 31, dimension 2 == 64
11:15<Dany0>I'm working in voxel space
11:15<planetmaker>there's a rather soft limit of ~200px or so
11:15<Dany0>I don't need pixel dimensions
11:15<Dany0>voxel dimensions
11:16<planetmaker>but a ground tile is 64px wide and 31px in the | direction on the screen. If it is flat
11:16<planetmaker>openttd has no voxels
11:16<Dany0>I know
11:16<Dany0>I'm working in a voxel editorm
11:16<@Alberth>Dany0: as many as you can scale to those pixel sizes
11:16<Dany0>LMGTFY
11:17<Dany0>http://www.qubicle-constructor.com/
11:17<Dany0>Alberth: no I want it proportional
11:17<@Alberth>there is no proportional, it is just an optical illusion
11:17<Dany0>could someone quickly fire me a jpg/png of the rails any direction?
11:18<Dany0>well then, proportional to the optical illusion
11:18<planetmaker>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-landscape/repository/entry/src/gfx/rail_arctic_nogrid.png
11:19<Dany0>well... okay that'll do
11:19<planetmaker>a hight level is 8 px
11:19<Dany0>back in 5 minutes
11:20<@Alberth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isometric_projection gives you rotations in 3d
11:23<FFLaguna>Where are these "rotations in 3d"? I must not understand correctly at all :(
11:24<@Alberth>In the 'overview'. Noticed the number 35.264 ?
11:30<@Alberth>afk for a while
11:31*planetmaker is not exactly afk, but shouldn't touch it the next couple of minutes.
11:32<planetmaker>Dough on it leaves ugly residue ;-)
11:33<Dany0>ok editing
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11:52<Dany0>rendering
11:52<Dany0>sh*t it crashed......
11:53<Dany0>****
11:54<Dany0>ok old backup version... never mind
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11:59<Dany0>uploading to youtube
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12:05<Dany0>planetmaker Alberth FFLaguna http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EnYMtNlKwQ
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12:09<Dany0>so?
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12:14<Dany0>hello?
12:17<Dany0>Alberth planetmaker?
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12:20<Dany0>guys???
12:20<Dany0>where did you go?
12:21<V453000>to the pub I heard
12:22<Dany0>...
12:22<@Alberth>back
12:22<Dany0>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EnYMtNlKwQ what do you think
12:23<Dany0>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EnYMtNlKwQ
12:25<Dany0>Alberth: so what do you think
12:26<@Alberth>what is the goal of all this?
12:26<Dany0>making openttd sprites easier then in blender
12:26<Dany0>and faster
12:26<@Alberth>I *know* you can use a 3D renderer to make 2D sprites
12:27<Dany0>...
12:27<Dany0>but this a special 3d modeler
12:27<Dany0>it's much easier then blender
12:27<Dany0>and prettier
12:27<Dany0>also one could potentially make a voxlap clone of openttd
12:27<@Alberth>I cannot verify your claims at all
12:28<Dany0>and you can convert the vehicles to Ace Of Spades and Minecraft
12:28<Dany0>what?
12:28<@Alberth>although I doubt it is easier and faster
12:28<Dany0>?????
12:28<Dany0>the **** you talking about?
12:28<@Alberth>usually easier comes at a prices
12:28<Dany0>*facepalm*
12:28<@Alberth>*price
12:28<Dany0>http://www.qubicle-constructor.com/downloads.php
12:28<Dany0>then talk
12:29<@Alberth>why do you think I am interested in it?
12:29<@Alberth>you only seem to try to sell us to it
12:29<Dany0>do you even read what I'm saying?
12:29<Eddi|zuHause>[23.10.2011 16:17] <planetmaker> you want an even longer one? ;-) http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cets/nightlies/LATEST/log/cets.nml <-- that is certainly "cheating" :p
12:30<Dany0>and you didn't even try it -.-'
12:30<@Alberth>Dany0: I used povray a few times, and that's it.
12:30<@Alberth>I am a software coder, not a 3D artist
12:30<Dany0>what are you talking about!
12:30<Dany0>I'm talking one thing, you another
12:30<Dany0>get your stuff straight
12:30<@Alberth>lol!
12:31<Dany0>not funny
12:31<@Alberth>you're the one trying to sell a 3d modeler to a programmer :)
12:31<V453000>I do not understand how could a 3D render be better fit than a pixel art. The 3D render might be useful to make some shapes etc. correct, but the exact pixels...
12:31<Dany0>no
12:31<V453000>also, the final "sprite" you have rendered is totally ugly
12:32<Dany0>>>>I'm a programmer myself too
12:32<Dany0>V453000: but this is a voxel modelere
12:32<Dany0>*modeler
12:32<@Alberth>so what?
12:32<V453000>it doesnt matter what it is, its output is super plain and ugly
12:32<V453000>and to make it nice it would require much more effort than bitmap editor I think
12:32<V453000>do what you want but I am sticking with pixel art
12:33<@Alberth>Dany0: and straight tracks should be trivial in this thing, make an engine with the same quality as hand-made pixelart if you want to impress graphic artists
12:34<V453000>Alberth: did you see the output sprite of the track?
12:34<Dany0>much like Tiberian Sun
12:34<@Alberth>a bit but not really in detail, I always thought sprites came as bitmap instead of video :)
12:34<Dany0>V453000: another guy that doesn't get it... voxels aren't polygons
12:35<@Alberth>Dany0: I know what voxels are
12:35<V453000>I get it very well but your output sprite sucks
12:35<Dany0>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_%26_Conquer:_Tiberian_Sun
12:35<V453000>Alberth: in the end there is the output visible :)
12:35<Dany0>Alberth: apparently you don't
12:35<Dany0>Alberth: a lot of people think they do, but they don't
12:36<V453000>show us some sprites made?
12:36<Dany0>V453000: I know I didn't give it much detail
12:36<Dany0>yea
12:36<@Alberth>V453000: video is so bad quality, impossible to judge fairly imho
12:36<V453000>I think the sprite is _SO_ bad that the video quality is sufficient :P
12:37<Dany0>http://i.imgur.com/SJkEI.gif
12:37<@Alberth>Dany0: honestly, nobody cares how you make sprites, the endresult is what counts
12:37<Dany0>http://i.imgur.com/GhKva.gif
12:37<V453000>how is that a sprite
12:37<V453000>that is a cubicle model rotating
12:37<Dany0>?
12:37<Dany0>still a sprite
12:37<V453000>not for TTD
12:37<Dany0>how is it not a sprite?
12:38<@Alberth>a sprite a single bitmap
12:38<andythenorth>Dany0: can you model a ship with it?
12:38<andythenorth>quickly?
12:38<Dany0>so it's not been rendered in iso cam, still a bitmap
12:38<Dany0>sprite
12:38<andythenorth>I just want to see what the hull shape and shading are like
12:38<Dany0>Alberth: no
12:38<Dany0>Alberth: sprite sheet is a single bitmap
12:38<andythenorth>light in OTTD is at about 5pm high
12:38<Dany0>Alberth: I used gif sprites a lot and others too
12:38<V453000>Dany0: then go ahead and use that SPRITE in openttd
12:38<V453000>go on
12:38<Dany0>V453000: ok so
12:38<Dany0>YOU'RE AN IDIOT
12:38<Dany0>-.-'
12:38<V453000>alright
12:39<Dany0>http://i.imgur.com/OyJiC.gif
12:39<Dany0>thank you
12:39<V453000>still use the sprite please :)
12:39<V453000>how is this any different from the previous technically in being a sprite for openttd
12:39<Dany0>somebody correct V453000 for me please I don't wanna deal with idiots right now
12:39*andythenorth is intrigued by Qubicle
12:39<@Alberth>@kick Dany0
12:39<V453000>Alberth: please dont, it is nice
12:40<V453000>and I want to see the result if there is going to be any
12:40<Dany0>oh my goodness
12:40<Dany0>V453000: it's still a sprite, and if I want I can render it with ISO cam, it's still useable in OpenTTD though it doesn't fit
12:40<V453000>yes I am an absolute retard but please enlighten me and show me a proper sprite for openttd
12:41<V453000>usable and doesnt fit ... that is ... useful!
12:41<Dany0>it's in a different theme
12:41<Dany0>of course it's not useful...
12:42<@Alberth>so why are you in this channel then? You expect us to change entire OpenTTD just because your renderer cannot make sprites that fit?
12:42<V453000>I am asking you to show something useful :)
12:42<Dany0>Alberth: what?
12:42<Dany0>Alberth: I don't know, are you ignorant or just retarded?
12:42<V453000>because obviously nobody in this channel cannot understand your logic
12:42<andythenorth>Dany0: instead of arguing, can you model a ship? :)
12:42<Dany0>andythenorth: k
12:42<Dany0>andythenorth: gimme blueprints
12:42<Dany0>and dimensions
12:43<V453000>just make any ship
12:43<V453000>what do you need those data for
12:43<andythenorth>it can be very rough
12:43<Dany0>uh
12:43<Dany0>so like one with vessles?
12:43-!-Zuu_ [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd
12:43<andythenorth>http://hg.openttdcoop.org/fish/raw-file/90d6b10c522d/sprites/graphics/coaster_large_gen4.png
12:43<Dany0>like those rescue boats from pirate-themed literature?
12:44<Dany0>no no something that would take less time to make
12:44*andythenorth is sick of drawing ships and if they can be rendered it would be welcome
12:44<V453000>then make a train, those are smaller
12:44-!-Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:44<Dany0>a vagon
12:44<Dany0>blueprints?
12:45<V453000>google "wagon" ?
12:45<@Alberth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/entry/sprites/png/trains/arctic_MJS1000_28px.png
12:45<@Alberth>a random train
12:46<Dany0>Alberth: ... well k
12:47<@Alberth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/entry/sprites/png/trains/temperate_kirbypaul_88.png a somewhat more round model
12:47<Dany0>dimensions about 10x30?
12:48<MINM>andythenorth: would the av8 method be worth a try?
12:48<andythenorth>MINM: it would if I could get Pikka to supply finished sprites :P
12:48-!-heyheyy [~heyhey@modemcable043.42-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
12:48<Dany0>Alberth: sry I'm not an artist this is too much for me :S
12:48<andythenorth>mostly I'm over-painting renders from lead@inbox, but they need a lot of processing
12:48<V453000>then make any train or wagon out of your mind
12:49<MINM>lol
12:49<MINM>Im kinda wondering what methods he uses.
12:50<V453000>hehe :) but seeing what mastery he shows with UKRS2, pixels are still his best :P
12:50<V453000>av8 is amazing as well though
12:51<@Alberth>you cannot beat handmade pixels with any renderer :)
12:51<V453000>unquestionably :)
12:51<Dany0>yes you can
12:51<Dany0>8bpp maybe
12:52<Dany0>32bpp no way
12:52<Dany0>once again
12:52<Dany0>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_%26_Conquer:_Tiberian_Sun
12:52<Dany0>game made completely out of rendered voxels
12:53<V453000>I wont comment that until you show us some useful sprites :)
12:53<Dany0>-.-'
12:53<Dany0>well I have some basis
12:55-!-heyhey [~heyhey@modemcable043.42-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:56<Dany0>http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9548/sofarw.jpg so far?
12:57<V453000>not sprite
12:58-!-Trojanin [trojanin@floss.pl] has joined #openttd
12:58<Trojanin>hi
12:58<@Alberth>hi
12:59<Dany0>V453000: ok seriously?
12:59<Dany0>V453000: do you even think before saying
12:59<Dany0>?
12:59<V453000>how many pixels does that have?
12:59<Dany0>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_(computer_graphics)
12:59<Dany0>it has no pixels
13:00<Dany0>http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/1684/sofar2x.jpg
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: what he means is you should downscale that to TTD dimensions
13:00<V453000>a sprite for openttd is in 22*17 for side view of the train
13:00<V453000>x:y
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: and that looks horrible, especially with the jpeg compression
13:01<Dany0>I'm not an artist...
13:02<V453000>me neither
13:02<V453000>and I draw pixels ... you said making cubicles is easier
13:02<V453000>so where is the problem
13:02-!-LordAro [~lordaro@host86-156-236-122.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
13:02<Dany0>V453000: what?
13:02<LordAro>evening
13:02<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/2004/Electric01.png for example
13:02<V453000>hi LordAro
13:03<Dany0>V453000: you are so unbelievably stupid I doubt I want to talk to you again
13:03<V453000>I sure am but you havent shown us why your method is good yet
13:03*Eddi|zuHause should get the popcorn
13:03*LordAro agrees
13:03<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: hand me one as well please, I ate mine already
13:03<@Alberth>hi LordAro
13:03<LordAro>hai Alberth
13:03<Trojanin>hi LordAro
13:04<Dany0>V453000: because you have better control over the final result, it's a lot like 3d paint
13:04<Dany0>and much easier to learn then blender
13:05<V453000>oh, do you have better control?
13:05<__ln__>Dany0: *than
13:05<V453000>I would rather replace pixels instead of adding/removing some cubicles
13:05<@Alberth>V453000: that's an easy train :)
13:05<V453000>and you still have to render it out after wards and only then you see the result
13:05<V453000>Alberth: indeed
13:06<V453000>Alberth: no need to make it hard :)
13:06<@Alberth>agreed :p
13:07<frosch123>Dany0: i guess your problem in this channel is, that noone hear uses blender
13:07<frosch123>*here
13:07<V453000>no the problem is that his method is not better and he is obviously unable to prove otherwise :)
13:08<Dany0>V453000: THIS IS NOT CUBICLES
13:08<Dany0>V453000: I DARE YOU
13:08<Dany0>V453000: I DOUBLE DARE YOU MOTHERF*CKER
13:08<V453000>show me a sprite, I dont care what it is
13:08<Dany0>SAY CUBICLE ONE MORE F*CKING TIME
13:08<frosch123>from my outside point of view, Dany0 is argueing that the qubicle thingie is better than blender, while everyone argues that 3d rendering is unsuitable in general
13:08<__ln__>Dany0: how old are you?
13:08<Dany0>lrn2voxel
13:09<V453000>I am able to make valid sprites for OpenTTD. Are you? With your not-cubicle method?
13:11-!-irx [~rait@82.131.27.103.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
13:12<Dany0>what resolution to render in?
13:13<V453000>the same as the example sprites I sent you
13:13<V453000>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/2004/Electric01.png for example
13:14<V453000>I am expecting you to say that it is too small and that I am retarded
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: let's make a deal. pick this original: http://www.zackenbahn.de/e01.html and make something that fits into these boxes: https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/changes/src/gfx/template_6.png
13:14<Eddi|zuHause>if you come up with something sensible, we believe you
13:15<Dany0>you 'believe' me?
13:15<frosch123>mind that the orientations | and - are longer than / and \
13:15<Rubidium>too bad Qubicle is Windows only. Means it basically can't be used for the open source graphics
13:15<frosch123>which requires any 3d renderer not only to rotate, but also scale stuff
13:15<Dany0>Rubidium: runs in WINE just fine
13:15<Dany0>http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1278/rendero.png
13:15<Eddi|zuHause>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets/repository/raw/src/gfx/template_6.png <-- better link
13:16<Dany0>shading is on.. fck
13:17<Dany0>http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2219/render2y.png
13:17<Eddi|zuHause>that's still way too big
13:17<V453000>^
13:18<Dany0>the camera can't zoom out so far..
13:18<Rubidium>Dany0: still, by the "claims" made on the website I deduce you have to buy some version to be able to create files useful for generating a NewGRF
13:18<Dany0>Rubidium: well, it'd be a lot easier, mainly shadowing and making houses
13:20<Rubidium>does it even have command line options to generate/export pngs?
13:21<V453000>in a certain palette? :)
13:21<Dany0>what do you mean?
13:21<Dany0>V453000: palette yes
13:21<Dany0>Rubidium: what do you mean?
13:22<@Alberth>Dany0: using the renderer from a script, and generating a few hundred sprites
13:22<Dany0>V453000: actually you can even make an object and then convert to a different palette, that's how it exports it to minecraft adjusted to the minecraft palette
13:22-!-pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-176-043.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:22<Dany0>Alberth: you can do that without a script
13:22<Dany0>Alberth: a few hundred?
13:22<@Alberth>Dany0: we like automatic build procedures
13:22<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: but we *WANT* do use a script
13:23-!-pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-037-206.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd
13:23<Dany0>I'd ask tim
13:23<Rubidium>Dany0: for Qubicle to be used for GPL NewGRF sets you *must* be able to create the NewGRF from the source programatically. This means that the qubicle files have to be "exported" to png (or pcx) by means of a command line option of qubicle
13:23<@Alberth>Dany0: a few hundred is a very conservative estimate
13:23<Dany0>Rubidium: nope still don't get it
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: CETS has 20.000 real sprites
13:24<V453000>how many engines Eddi?
13:24<Dany0>so you want to export render all your objects at once?
13:24<Dany0>well I guess it could be done... though I'd raise the question why?
13:24<@Alberth>Dany0: yes, automatically every night
13:25<Rubidium>Dany0: can Qubicle export one of its files to PNG without any human interaction with Qubicle
13:25-!-jo2k [~Jonny@dslb-094-222-142-225.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
13:25<Dany0>Rubidium: ask tim
13:25<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: something 400-ish
13:25<Dany0>oh
13:26<V453000>jesus christ
13:26<V453000>is that going to be well playable?
13:26<Dany0>you can probably put all of them in one scene and export all
13:26<Eddi|zuHause>yes
13:26<Dany0>you know what
13:26<Dany0>http://www.qubicle-constructor.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=5
13:27<Dany0>http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/797/render3ap.png
13:27<Dany0>http://www.qubicle-constructor.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=173
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: another 50% smaller
13:28<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: I don't see why but possible why not
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: and then apply proper palette and transparent background, and generate all 8 needed views
13:28<Dany0>I'm not suggesting it for the 8bpp stuff -.-' OpenGRF is finished and the only 8bpp set I like is the original one so nothing interesting there
13:28<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: yeah np
13:29-!-Nite [5472b1fc@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
13:29<V453000>8bpp and 32bpp differ only in amount of colours per pixel?
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>and the angle is not right either
13:30<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: I set it to iso
13:30<Dany0>35/45 angles
13:30<Rubidium>you need dimetric
13:30<Dany0>oh
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: it's not exactly isometric
13:30<Dany0>and no one tells me that?
13:30<Dany0>that's that 32.885 thing?
13:30<Eddi|zuHause>the angle is arctan(1/2) ~ 26.5°
13:31<Dany0>0.o'
13:32<Dany0>only integers sorry
13:32<Dany0>dauym
13:32<Dany0>...
13:32<Dany0>*damn
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>there goes any remote usage this might have had... sorry...
13:33<Dany0>so what you guys need is: dimetric camera; mass rendering and?
13:33<Rubidium>a linux version that doesn't require a GL video card
13:33<V453000>and nice result
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>palette, magic recolour tables
13:33<Dany0>it's still in active day-to-day development, this is easy stuff I'm sure easy to implement
13:33<@Alberth>an open source version
13:33<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: already there
13:34<Dany0>Rubidium: planned for 2.0
13:34<Dany0>Rubidium: why do you need it may I ask?
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: 90% of development in this community is done on linux
13:35<@Alberth>automatic nightly build at a headless machine?
13:35<Rubidium>wine and gl don't quite work on all platforms Debian supports
13:35<Dany0>Rubidium: worked fine on ubuntu 64b&32b
13:35<Dany0>I'd say even better then windows sometimes :S
13:36<__ln__>Dany0: *than
13:36<@Alberth>note the word *all*
13:36<Rubidium>that's less than 10% of the Debian platforms
13:37<Dany0>__ln__: thank you
13:38<Dany0>Rubidium: well you can always try
13:38<Dany0>so one more time
13:38<V453000>dont forget you also need people who actually want to do that
13:38<V453000>might be handy
13:38<Dany0>magic palettes, SW mode, dimetric projection, mass render and?
13:39<Nite>Hi
13:39<Rubidium>Dany0: wine works on only three of the 21 platforms
13:39<Dany0>V453000: says the guy saying cubicles
13:39<Rubidium>primarily because the other platforms aren't using x86 (derivatives)
13:39<V453000>who draws pixels and doesnt care about your cubicles :)
13:39<Nite>Hi
13:39<Dany0>V453000: it's better then blender
13:39<V453000>possibly, I dont care about blender either
13:39<Dany0>V453000: you draw horrib ly
13:40<V453000>thanks
13:40<Nite>i just thought about "trains loading at astation until they get a green signal light ...
13:40<Nite>"
13:40<V453000>Dany0: your sprites are definitely better
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: nice thought, but where's your implementation?
13:40<Dany0>you can convert polygonal models this way
13:41<Nite>at least i release my thoughts ;-)
13:44<Dany0>http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/9789/render4bu.png
13:44-!-heyhey [~heyhey@modemcable043.42-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
13:44<Dany0>plus changed palette http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/9508/render5r.png
13:45<V453000>large, and the palette conversion is ... interesting
13:46<Dany0>it failed a little here... but this is what it usually works like: http://www.qubicle-constructor.com/media/tutorial_minecraft/colormap_applied.gif
13:46<MINM>andy:
13:46<MINM>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=508269#p508269
13:47<MINM>now if only I could work with milkshape
13:47<Dany0>MINM: http://www.qubicle-constructor.com/
13:47<Dany0>MINM: much easier & faster
13:47<MINM>depends.
13:47<MINM>you're still using pixel art, essentially.
13:47<V453000>MINM: he was not able to show us a single sprite output yet ..
13:48<MINM>I know
13:48<Dany0>MINM: no YOU ARE NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT FUUCKING DAMMIT
13:48<Dany0>http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/076/537/original/Super_FUUU_Face.jpg
13:48<MINM>..what?
13:48<V453000>yes that is him
13:48<Dany0>VOXEL ART != PIXEL ART
13:48<V453000>so your output is ... pixels or voxel art?
13:48<V453000>we still need the bitmap sprite :)
13:48<Dany0>this is voxel art
13:48<Dany0>http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5411/slab6.png
13:49<MINM>a voxel is a 3d pixel. the only big difference is the use of a third dimension.
13:49-!-heyheyy [~heyhey@modemcable043.42-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:49<Dany0>no
13:49<Dany0>a voxel represents actual volume
13:49<Dany0>in compare
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: it's nice voxel art, but still totally useless to this game
13:49<Dany0>a polygon model is an approximation
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>every model is an approximation
13:50<Dany0>using maths you're saying that the object rendered is around over here
13:50<Dany0>voxel object is an actual representation of it
13:50<Dany0>in a grid
13:50<V453000>and the result is?
13:50<Dany0>you can have higher then real-life resolution
13:50<V453000>what do you provide for OpenTTD?
13:50<Eddi|zuHause>"representation" and "model" is the same thing
13:51<Dany0>V453000: you are so unbelievably irritating, not your personality, you're quite fine... you're just so... STUPID! ah!!!
13:51<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: not in the voxel world
13:51<Dany0>voxel world is strict in this
13:51<V453000>sorry, my brain wont get any better, but please show me already that your method is good by providing some sprites for OpenTTD :)
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: neither we nor openttd is living in a voxel world
13:52<+glx>openttd still needs 2D sprites :)
13:52<Dany0>it's there and it's there and it can not be in some infinitely uncomputable coordinate
13:52<Dany0>1,2,4 or 1,2,5 nothing else
13:53<Dany0>while polygons are often just fractions and comparisons
13:53<Eddi|zuHause>openttd still has no voxels
13:54<V453000>:)
13:54<Dany0>like a triangle, it says one side is 12 units long, the height is 1/11th of the side
13:54<Dany0>results in bull shenanigans
13:54<Dany0>we are living in voxel world
13:54<Dany0>except it's super-positioning
13:54<V453000>you know, newGRFs will kind of care about the actual results :)
13:54<Dany0>a particle can be on 3400,1,2334 coordinate and 29803,123,555 coordinate at the same time
13:54<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: one more time
13:55<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_%26_Conquer:_Tiberian_Sun
13:55<Dany0>so what
13:55<Dany0>they did it
13:55<+glx>and ?
13:55<Eddi|zuHause>yes, please mr. teletubby. one more time.#
13:55<Dany0>it looks really nice and they made it faster
13:55<V453000>then you can do it too, prove it :)
13:55<Dany0>V453000: can you just.. please, stop talking? also I'm not an artist
13:55<+glx>won't change the fact openttd only understands 2D sprites
13:56<Dany0>glx: and who are you
13:56<Dany0>glx: oh, you're the guy that CAN'T READ right? -.-'!!
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>Dany0: ever watched the openttd credits?
13:56<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: yes, why
13:57<V453000>would answer who he is
13:57<Dany0>V453000: ???
13:57<V453000>credits, names, ...
13:57<V453000>sorry I am so stupid
13:58<Dany0>http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/8962/cover150r.gif
13:58<Eddi|zuHause>ECoherenceWarning
13:59*SpComb wonders if Dany0 has watched too many voxel-rendering videos on youtube
13:59<Dany0>SpComb: and talked to too much people involved with it
13:59<@Alberth>SpComb but... the whole world is in voxels!
14:00<Dany0>well
14:00<Dany0>superlative
14:00<Dany0>superpositioned
14:00<V453000>superstupid
14:00<Dany0>also light is voxels too so that's kinda crazy
14:00<Dany0>V453000: see? you are stupid.
14:00<SpComb>the particle-wave-voxel triality? :)
14:00<V453000>yes. I wont do much about it though
14:01-!-Dany0 was kicked from #openttd by Alberth [yes everybody is stupid except you]
14:01<V453000>OH :(
14:01<Prof_Frink>\o/
14:01<V453000>you kicked my new friend
14:01<SpComb>I know, how about we base our graphics on... photons!
14:01<V453000>:D
14:01<Prof_Frink>Raytraced openttd
14:01<V453000>great idea SpComb
14:01-!-Dany0 [5ab27afe@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
14:01<V453000>SpComb: althought it might be a bit time consuming ... you know, setting them all right
14:01<V453000>*-t
14:02<@Alberth>V453000: sorry, I just had enough of him calling names to everybody
14:02<Dany0>see that's why the universe can't be in a java emulator
14:02<Dany0>you can't have particle-wave-voxel triality be running in java
14:02<TrueBrain>why not?
14:02<Dany0>it'd run out of memory
14:02<Prof_Frink>No, you have tea-coffee-hotchocolate triality.
14:02<MINM>..okay, now Im just calling plain troll.
14:02<Dany0>explode
14:02<Dany0>and implode at the same time
14:02<TrueBrain>you think to narrow minded
14:03<TrueBrain>they said 640k would be enough for everyone
14:04<Dany0>you'd be so pixelated if the java world emulator would have 640k
14:04<Dany0>but it'd make no difference for V453000
14:04<Rubidium>+q?
14:04<Prof_Frink>Silly. You don't pickle java.
14:04<Dany0>:)
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>[23.10.2011 20:02] <Prof_Frink> No, you have tea-coffee-hotchocolate triality. <-- that might very well be a TBBT episode :p
14:04<Dany0>why not
14:05<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: :D I liked the one about D&D, talking about BBT jokes :P
14:05<V453000>Rubidium: I am waiting when will he realize he is the retard, not all of us, but that probably wont happen
14:05<TrueBrain>Rubidium: he is our new toy
14:05<TrueBrain>please let us toy with him
14:05<TrueBrain>its fun
14:05<Dany0>V453000: you are the one saying "cubicles" <-- shut your mouth
14:05<TrueBrain>@mode +q Dany0
14:05<TrueBrain>hmm
14:05<TrueBrain>@mode +q Dany0
14:05-!-mode/#openttd [+q Dany0!*@*] by DorpsGek
14:05<TrueBrain>ah :)
14:06<Rubidium>V453000: but I'd love to go with retardation already
14:06<V453000>Dany0: I still make sprites :) you dont
14:06<TrueBrain>V453000: now you say: no, you shut up!
14:06<V453000>Rubidium: :)
14:06<V453000>TrueBrain: boring ;)
14:06<TrueBrain>V453000: aawwhhh
14:06<TrueBrain>please?
14:06<V453000>cubicles.
14:06<V453000>:D
14:07<TrueBrain>:D:D:D
14:07<TrueBrain>cubicles are nice :)
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>do the cubicles have dilberts in them?
14:07<LordAro>shame, i also found the troll funny
14:07<TrueBrain>hmm .. did DorpsGek btw translate my +q into a +b?
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: looks like it
14:07<TrueBrain>why would it do that?
14:07*Prof_Frink has cubicles at the base of his fingernails
14:07<__ln__>doesn't look like it
14:08-!-rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-188-100-215-044.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
14:08*LordAro points and laughs at the troll
14:08<TrueBrain>I wonder if it is Konversation translating mode changes
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: because some stupid person programmed it
14:08<Rubidium>TrueBrain: I'd blame Konversation
14:08<__ln__>21:05 -!- mode/#openttd [+q Dany0!*@*] by DorpsGek
14:08<TrueBrain>tnx __ln__
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: Konversation used to say "give owner status"
14:09<TrueBrain>I wonder if he is trying to talk; how long before he realises we can't read it? I am taking bets now!
14:09<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, I am used to that ... but it doesn't :P
14:10<SpComb>05:13:57 [OFTC] -!- CHANLIMIT=#:70 CHANNELLEN=50 CHANMODES=eIqb,k,l,imnpstMRS AWAYLEN=160 KNOCK ELIST=CMNTU SAFELIST EXCEPTS=e INVEX=I are supported by this server
14:12<V453000>TrueBrain: unfortunately I fear we wont be able to read that and thus evaluate the bet :D
14:12<__ln__>V453000: that doesn't stop TB from profiting from the bet, does it
14:12<V453000>:DDDDD
14:13<V453000>sorry for spoiling the profit :P
14:13<TrueBrain>V453000: what __ln__ says :P
14:15<V453000>:)
14:16<TrueBrain>I love those people coming along btw
14:16<TrueBrain>makes this channel all chatty
14:17<V453000>D:
14:17<V453000>he made my day tbh :D
14:19<TrueBrain>so he served his purpose :D
14:19<V453000>you could put it even that way :D
14:20<TrueBrain>I still consider adding to the bot that talking in capitals causes you to be kicked instantly :P
14:20<TrueBrain>but that wouldn't have given you the fun you had :P
14:21<V453000>yeah, that would have been sad, I think his like 3rd sentence was all capitals
14:22-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:23<V453000>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=57085 :DDDDD
14:23<V453000>there you go
14:25<MINM>I don't think he's going to last long on the forums either, is he?
14:37-!-mahmoud [~KEM@ALyon-158-1-117-49.w90-29.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #openttd
14:38<TrueBrain>k, here he comes again ;)
14:38<TrueBrain>@mode -q Dany0
14:39-!-mode/#openttd [-q Dany0!*@*] by DorpsGek
14:39-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd
14:40<Dany0>V453000: can you make me a sprite?
14:40<V453000>yes, plenty
14:40<Dany0>top-down space ship
14:40<V453000>how is that useful for OpenTTD
14:41<Dany0>not for OpenTTD, for me
14:41<TrueBrain>+1 for V453000, owh, I just pissed my pants :D
14:41<V453000>I dont care about you
14:41<Dany0>oh come on I know you wanna do it
14:41<MINM>TrueBrain: the forum post?
14:41<V453000>TrueBrain: ? :D
14:41<TrueBrain>no, "yes, plenty"
14:42<TrueBrain>I see him saying it in such a dry way
14:42<V453000>:P
14:42<TrueBrain>and I remembered the thing about the spider
14:42<TrueBrain>you know thatone, about the payment?
14:42<V453000>probably not :)
14:42<Dany0>I don't get it what just happened
14:43<TrueBrain>V453000: http://27bslash6.com/overdue.html
14:43<V453000>hey I know that blog :D
14:44<TrueBrain>its epic :)
14:44<Dany0>yeah but David Throne stopped posting on twitter lately
14:44<Dany0>just poof vanished like oprah
14:44<Dany0>he even made that joke
14:45<V453000>TrueBrain: awesome :D
14:46<Dany0>=(
14:48*andythenorth is intrigued and would like to subscribe to a cubicle newsletter
14:48<andythenorth>it might be a good way forward
14:48<TrueBrain>it keeps reminding me of the "infinite detail" movie
14:49<Dany0>TrueBrain: you kidding me?
14:49<Dany0>don't get me started
14:49<V453000>dont get him started!
14:49<Dany0>^ what he said
14:49<TrueBrain>I am sorry, I won't.
14:49<@Alberth>andythenorth: they have a forum :)
14:49<Dany0>too late >=(!
14:49<V453000>:DD
14:49<TrueBrain>so stop talking about cubicles!
14:49<Dany0>PLEASE
14:49<Dany0>for the love of god
14:50<Dany0>do not say cubicles
14:50<Dany0>please!
14:51<Dany0>UDT is pure shenanigans
14:51<Dany0>first of all it has huge memory problems ATM
14:51<TrueBrain>well, tbh, he called it voxels
14:51<TrueBrain>so lets stop talking about voxels :D
14:52<Dany0>what do you want to talk about then
14:52<TrueBrain>I prefer anything not OpenTTD related
14:52<TrueBrain>makes me feel at home in this channel
14:54<Dany0>ok
14:54<Dany0>anyone here succesfully installed android sdk&ndk & JDK on ubuntu?
14:58<Dany0>nope, no one?
14:59<Dany0>:(
14:59<Dany0>ok have you guys ever played trackmania?
15:00<Dany0>... bye guys
15:01<Dany0>voxel aloha everyone
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15:01<andythenorth>funny chap
15:01<TrueBrain>he finally got the hint
15:01<TrueBrain>lolz
15:03<@Alberth>so how much money did you make on bets?
15:03<LordAro>:)
15:03<TrueBrain>I am 102 euros en 12 cents in the plus
15:04<TrueBrain>so yeah
15:04<@Alberth>not bad for a sunday evening of fun :)
15:04<TrueBrain>fun fact for those not creative with pastebins (hint), he thought DorpsGek banned him, and tried to talk to DorpsGek :P
15:05<TrueBrain>also after I called him cocky, he asked me if I consider Sheldon Cooper (BBT) cocky :P
15:05<TrueBrain>just a few highlights of my evening :D
15:05<andythenorth>what an odd fellow
15:05*andythenorth is intrigued by qubicle thing though
15:05<TrueBrain>why?
15:05<TrueBrain>in relation to OpenTTD?
15:06<andythenorth>yes
15:06<andythenorth>drawing pixels sucks
15:06<TrueBrain>we already have cubes :D
15:06<@Alberth>a new climate!
15:06<TrueBrain>andythenorth: make a 3D model and render the 2D from it?
15:06<andythenorth>make a 3D model, figure out how to teach it about pixel shading
15:06<andythenorth>:P
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't seen any cube in ottd
15:07<@Alberth>press CTL+B :)
15:07<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: they are rotated 45 degrees, then put out of perspective :P
15:07<TrueBrain>Alberth: lolz :D
15:07<TrueBrain>Alberth: blitter debugger?
15:07<@Alberth>bounding box display
15:08<TrueBrain>ah :P
15:08<TrueBrain>well, start with -b 8bpp-debug then :P
15:09<TrueBrain>andythenorth: but how would qubicles solve that? :)
15:09<andythenorth>I'm not sure. I don't understand the tech
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15:09<TrueBrain>voxel models either come from a normal 3D model as we know it, or realtime scanned objects with a 3D scanner :P
15:10<TrueBrain>so I am not sure it will help ;)
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15:11<heffer>planetmaker: do i need a grfcodec > 5.1.1 to build opengfx 0.3.7?
15:12-!-heyheyy [~heyhey@modemcable043.42-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
15:12<@Alberth>I'd expect that you need NML
15:13<@Alberth>although I am not sure what opengfx is written in
15:13<heffer>NML?
15:13<heffer>what is that?
15:13<@Alberth>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml
15:14<heffer>that would be new to me. 0.3.5 of opengfx is happy with just grfcodec
15:15<Rubidium>heffer: yes, it needs a newer grfcodec
15:16<heffer>okay i was trying to build 0.3.7 for Fedora. will there be a new update soon or should i go for a nightly?
15:16<Rubidium>I'd say http://binaries.openttd.org/extra/grfcodec/5.1.2/grfcodec-5.1.2-source.tar.gz would suffice, wouldn't it?
15:17<heffer>Rubidium: it would :D i looked on http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/grfcodec which still says 5.1.1 :D
15:17<TrueBrain>documentation always lags behind the reality :(
15:18<heffer>isn't it always like that :) but we're lucky to have irc then :D
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15:30<__ln__>http://www.gamespot.com/pc/sim/streetcleaningsim/video/6328075/the-gamespot-community-reacts-to-street-cleaning-simulator
15:31<TrueBrain>a 30+ second advertise before the clip
15:31<TrueBrain>omfg
15:31<TrueBrain>let me get a beer, then it should be loaded
15:33-!-pjpe [ae5b514a@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
15:33<TrueBrain>lol, nice movie __ln__
15:35<Beengalass>planetmaker, are you available?
15:35<@Alberth>haven't seen him all evening
15:36<Beengalass>Okej. Perhaps anyone else care to help me with some nml codes?
15:37<TrueBrain>wish I knew anything about it :(
15:37<@Alberth>just post the problem in a pastebin, and ask the question
15:37<@Alberth>(I don't know nml either, but there are others here that do)
15:38<Beengalass>Yeah, I spoke with him earlier but before he could help me I had to run. Issue is that I cannot get a nml file to contain several locomotives but I have to run several grf.
15:38<Beengalass>I want just one grf for all my locomotives.
15:38<@Yexo>pastebin your code and I can take a look at it
15:39<@Yexo>and that is general advise, see our topic: Don't ask to ask, just ask
15:40<Beengalass>pastebin?
15:40<@Yexo>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/
15:40<@Yexo>copy/paste your code there, click "Paste" and share the resulting url here
15:40<Beengalass>http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/667/
15:41<Beengalass>In-game I get only the second one (STR_ICM_NAME1).
15:41<@Yexo>item(FEAT_TRAINS, item_icm) { <- the second one should have another name
15:41<@Yexo>you're simply overwriting the properties for the first one
15:41<@Yexo>which is valid, but not what you want
15:42<Beengalass>haha, worked. Thanks. :)
15:42<@Yexo>and please pick a grfid of your own
15:42<Beengalass>That was a quick answer. I get the feeling I'm not the first one.
15:42<@Yexo>dunno, haven't seen it before but it was obvious for me
15:44<Beengalass>and grfid? The 3th line?
15:44<@Yexo>yep
15:44<Beengalass>How come?
15:45<@Yexo>it needs to be unique for every grf. The id you're using now is already in use by the nml regression test
15:45<@Yexo>or by the nml example
15:45-!-heyhey [~heyhey@modemcable043.42-176-173.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
15:45<@Yexo>in any way, you shouldn't use an id that is already in use
15:45-!-luckz [~lkz@luckz.de] has joined #openttd
15:46<Beengalass>ALl right
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16:14<TrueBrain>its so quiet in here
16:14<TrueBrain>where id Dany0?
16:14-!-DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-175.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
16:14<TrueBrain>is
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16:18-!-Elu is now known as Elukka
16:19<andythenorth>good night
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16:19<Zuu>TrueBrain: Do you want me to make some noise?
16:20<TrueBrain>sure, go for it
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16:20<Zuu>wrong answer, I'm to tired to make noise. :-p
16:20<TrueBrain>darn
16:20<TrueBrain>here, your 5 euros back
16:21*Elukka LOUD NOISES
16:22<@Alberth>ef bb bf 4f is this a good utf-8 character?
16:22<TrueBrain>thought it was assembly :P
16:22<@Alberth>TrueBrain: we do need auto-kick on all upper-case :p
16:23<Zuu>speaking of utf-8, does OpenTTD contain any filter against weird utf characters like those going out of the box or upside-down characters?
16:23<MINM>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh_5dazOl6g
16:23<MINM>noise enough?
16:23<TrueBrain>Zuu: wouldn't that list be endless?
16:23-!-LordAro [~lordaro@host86-156-236-122.range86-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd
16:23<Zuu>ʇxǝʇ uʍop ǝpısdn
16:24*Alberth turns Zuu upside down
16:24<TrueBrain>I wonder why UTF wastes its space on that :P
16:24<Zuu>That list would probably be quite long yes.
16:26<Zuu>Here is some other wierd text: http://www.eeemo.net/
16:29<LordAro>*weird :)
16:29<Zuu>w̜͕͚̱̝̞̠̥̰̼̱͍͉ͭ͗ͦ͛͊̿̓͋͌̄͗̑̒̓̃̀͡͠ͅȩ̧̢̬̼̥̖̺̣̲̤͉̲̰̬͉ͦ̇͆ͦͯ͆̋͞ì̶̛̱̫̫͖̫̜͗̔̎ͫͪ̽̈ͤ̌̓͗̐ͬ̕rͥ͑̒̓̃ͤ͛̐͆̐̓̌͆͏̶̶͢҉͔̟̖͖̘̘̩̣͔͔̫̙͕͍̹ͅd̷̵͔̟̭͙̥̺̟̱̰͓̥̙͉̭͒ͮ̑̅
16:29<Zuu>:-)
16:30<LordAro>T̴͉̣̰̠̺͍͛̆̐̉ͭ̿̅̓̿͞͞ọ̸̸̡͔̯̮̠͈̠͖̦̘͆̔ͯͥ̆͗̈́́͒ ̲͍̞̲͚͉̱̫̞̠̣͎̝̱̞ͧ͋̈́ͩ̿̒̔̽ͭ̊̃̃ͥͤ̌ͫ̉̚͜͠ͅî̶̢̦̠̼͎̦͈͙͕̹̫͎͎̖̳̽̃̊̿̐̓ͯͪ͟n̴̨̧̡̜̠̰̺͇͈͎͎͉͔͙̠̣͉̲͖̮̋͂ͧͪ̈̐͛́͐́̅̐̐͌ͤͦ̊̌͌̕ͅv̴̷̡̹͖̝̩͎͕̤̯͕̗͇̼̬̮̱͚̥͈͗̏͋ͦ̈́͊͆ͨ͐̒ͭͮ͗͑ͦͥo̵̾ͪ̌̓̎̽͆͂̃̅͜͏̜̦̟̗̟͇̻͉̼̻̦̙̳͍̣
16:30<LordAro>k̷̵̶̸̬͍̰̻̹̪̤̠̲̻̯̟̫̫̇͋ͧ̽̇̂̉͑̈́́̈ͤ̅̾̊͠e͒̊ͨ̑̔͑̎̐ͣ͂́ͭ́͑̊̿̇̄
16:30<LordAro>:)
16:30<Zuu>Those doesn't show up right on my IRC client though. But maybe that is good, as otherwise it would cover the text above/below.
16:30<V453000>I feared my display is broken ...
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16:36<Wolf01>'night
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16:38<TinoDidriksen>Unicode does not waste space on upside down letters.
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16:54<|Terkhen|>good night
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17:42<LordAro>night all
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18:43<planetmaker>heffer: for OpenGFX 0.3.7 you need grfcodec 5.1.2. For any future release of OpenGFX you'll need NML
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21:39<FFLaguna>What's that other industrial NewGRF, the one other than ECS?
21:40<FFLaguna>Ah, FIRS
21:41<FFLaguna>Which do most people prefer? ECS or FIRS?
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21:51<Elukka>can't speak for others, but FIRS for me
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22:44<FFLaguna>Haha
22:44<FFLaguna>"Basically I tout Simutrans just to piss off Elukka."
22:44<FFLaguna>From a thread in Dec. 2009
22:44<Elukka>huh.
22:44<FFLaguna>I just saw that randomly while looking for other OpenTTD stuff
22:44<Elukka>oh, relicnews
22:44<FFLaguna>Yeah, I think
22:45<Elukka>played a bunch of openttd games in that community
22:48<DDR_>Hm, I could never really figure out Simutrans. Where OpenTTD is clear and simple, Simutrans... well, let's just say that I had trouble building bridges when I tried a few years ago.
22:48<Elukka>yeah
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---Logclosed Mon Oct 24 00:00:03 2011