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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-25

---Logopened Tue Oct 25 00:00:09 2011
00:27<DDR_>Hi. So, I just bought 1100 ships in a multiplayer game, and now my copy of OpenTTD won't run fast enough to keep the network connection up. Anyone got any tips?
00:27<DDR_>That doesn't rhyme with Shell the Clips'?
00:29<DDR_>It's like, the dev version of OpenTTD comes with rivers, and they looked so empty... :P
00:32<Mazur>THey do take up a shitload of processor time.
00:33<Mazur>THew ships, rather than the rivers.
00:33<Mazur>No fixed tracks, see?
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01:02<FFLaguna>Mazur - I'm running the client, there's nothing excessive going on on my end
01:03<FFLaguna>60 trains, 5 road vehicles, and 1146 ships :P
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02:17<TyrHeimdall>DDR_: I read that using bouys helps a lot, it reduces the ammount of possible routes a lot
02:17<TyrHeimdall>space them out
02:18<TyrHeimdall>I have another problem though; OpenTTD won't run over windows remote desktop :P It just crashes on startup
02:20<planetmaker>DDR_: ship performance has been greatly improved in trunk. Mind that you then change the pathfinder to (the now default) yapf (away from npf) if you just update your openttd.
02:20<planetmaker>still.... 1k ships is A LOT
02:20<TyrHeimdall>would also like to se the possibility to close airports
02:20<TyrHeimdall>its a lot of work to change from one type to the next :/
02:32<planetmaker>it is. yes
02:39<DDR_>OK, thanks.
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02:49*Celestar goes getting openttd again
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02:53<Celestar>holy jesus
02:53<Celestar>home partition full O_o
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03:48<planetmaker>hola andythenorth
03:49<blathijs>Celestar: OpenTTD has gotten awesome nowadays!
03:49<blathijs>(I recently spent a day "testing" my Debian build... ;-)
03:55<planetmaker>Rb yesterday compiled a changelog since 1.1 branch... At least half of the lines had a "[NewGRF]" in it :-)
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04:00<Ammler>is there something else than rivers?
04:00<@peter1138>OpenTTD is awesome now? Wasn't it? :S
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04:03<planetmaker> <-- I hope he'll forgive me the quote
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04:13<Ammler>planetmaker: which say 3 would you mention for users?
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04:15<Ammler>IMO, 1.2 will become the most boring upgrade :-)
04:17<Sacro>omfg, it's Celestar :D
04:17<Sacro>now we need DarkVator back
04:17*andythenorth votes for DaleStan
04:20<Celestar>heya Sacro :)
04:21<Celestar>yo blathijs
04:21<Celestar>what'S the status on cargodist? :P
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04:23*Sacro tries to recall what Celestar was last doing
04:24<Ammler>Celestar: you missed yacd, but that seems stalled too
04:25<planetmaker>Ammler, I'd mention each
04:25<TyrHeimdall>oh btw; when trying to share orders between vehicles, why do I some times get an error saying its not possible? (don't remember the exact message now)
04:25<Ammler>planetmaker: :-D :-P
04:25<TyrHeimdall>planes mostly
04:25<planetmaker>And I'm working on adding "Feature: Transparency setting for grid lines"
04:26<planetmaker>it's 90% finished ;-)
04:26<planetmaker>it needs a bit more quaking :-P
04:33<Terkhen>good morning
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04:43<LordAro>phew, that wiki work was fun :)
04:48<Celestar>Ammler: so cargodist died and yacd died?
04:49<LordAro>oh! a Celestar :)
04:49<Ammler>well, I used "stalled", not died :-P
04:49<Celestar>heya LordAro
04:50<Ammler>rather yacd killed cargodist but is stalled now
04:50<LordAro>Celestar: you probably won't know me, but i do a lot of delving into OTTD history :)
04:52<Ammler>or maybe just "hidden" developing like we know from michi
04:54<@peter1138>yacd's nice
04:54<andythenorth>yacd's nice
04:54<andythenorth>but stuck on the CPU use issue
04:55<@peter1138>didn't notice it
04:55<@peter1138>but then i didn't play big games. hmm
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04:56<DDR_>LordAro: Got any interesting historical tidbits?
04:57<LordAro>well, i found the forum thread about the server 'loss' last night
04:57<LordAro>and the versions went from -> 0.4.5
04:57<LordAro>which is a little odd
04:59<LordAro>can you explain that, o ancient one? ;P
04:59<Celestar>I still cannot believe we lost a whole repo :P
05:00<DDR_>Explanation: Hard drugs.
05:00<DDR_>Or maybe not. ;)
05:00<LordAro>well, according to the thread, it got hacked, and was sending out spam
05:00<Celestar>the server, yes.
05:00<Celestar>but not the repo P
05:00<Celestar>I think it was 970ish revisions
05:01<LordAro>first commit say 974/5 methinks
05:01<planetmaker>that's way before 0.4.x
05:01<planetmaker>iirc around 0.2 / 0.1 or so
05:01<Celestar>I have some VERY old code somewhere
05:01<LordAro>oh, and tb 'hid' commit 10k - so no one got the 'honour' :)
05:01<planetmaker>Probably my oldest code is around your newest code :-P
05:02<planetmaker>commit 20k was fun :-)
05:02<Celestar>rofl, about
05:02<planetmaker>I guess half the dev team watched :-)
05:02<planetmaker>live. Not online
05:03<planetmaker>the r20k party was quite fun :-)
05:03*DDR_ missed it. :(
05:03<DDR_>Not being a dev and all. :P
05:04*Celestar too
05:04<planetmaker>15 months ago...
05:04<planetmaker>everyone was invited :-) you just didn't pay attention
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05:04<Celestar>I think went to 0.4.5 because of Great New Feature (TM)
05:04<LordAro>i didn't see anything in the changelog...
05:05<planetmaker>LordAro, it's a release tag of 1.0.x
05:05<planetmaker>i.e. found in the 1.0 branch
05:05<planetmaker>no. r20k
05:05<Celestar>LordAro: Vehicle Cloning :P
05:06<DDR_>OH SWEET MERCY that was worth the bump in version number.
05:06<DDR_>Said the guy who just ended a game with 1100 ships.
05:06<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember the reasoning behind 0.4.5, but certainly "whoa, glad we finally got rid of these buggy PBS" was involved
05:06<Celestar>it took a while to get it fixed, right?
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05:06<Celestar>1100 ships?
05:06<Celestar>the CPU manages that? :P
05:07<LordAro>ships use YAPF noaw ;)
05:07<DDR_>No. That's why I ended it. :P
05:07<DDR_>Well, technically, the server's still going.
05:07<DDR_>it's just not *my* cpu which can handle it.
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05:08<DDR_>It was funny.
05:08*LordAro should do a wiki page: Notable events in OTTD History
05:08<DDR_>The rivers in the dev version make ships so much more accessible. :)
05:08<planetmaker>LordAro, the road map?
05:08<LordAro>shhh! don't mention rivers to andy!
05:08<DDR_>Though I really could stand for a level dock. Building an inner-city dock takes up a good 9 or 10 tiles. :(
05:09<planetmaker>LordAro, but... he drew them!
05:09<LordAro>he did complain a bit :)
05:09<planetmaker>he does that ;-)
05:09<planetmaker>luckily in an amiable fashion.
05:10<planetmaker>And he works on overcoming his complaints code-wise :-)
05:10<planetmaker>thus he may ;-)
05:10<DDR_>He's not happy with rivers?
05:10<planetmaker>DDR_, you need locks for every river slope to have ships pass there
05:10<planetmaker>even at sea level to level one.
05:10<DDR_>They are rather SC2K in their logic... *shrug*
05:10<planetmaker>Which can be considered a bit unfortunate
05:11<LordAro>[10:08:47] <planetmaker> LordAro, the road map? <-- no thiings that _have_ happened, e.g. repo loss, r10k, etc
05:11<planetmaker>I wonder whether there isn't somewhere a history page.
05:11<planetmaker>But sure, go right ahead
05:11<andythenorth>rivers suck
05:11<DDR_>I just routed 700 ships through a river and canal system. They're awesome.
05:12<DDR_>If you're fixing them up, I'm looking forward to the improvements. :)
05:12<@peter1138>ah "just make it" ...
05:13<@peter1138>rivers are good
05:13<LordAro>planetmaker: there is a "release history" page, which i'll probably link to
05:14<LordAro>t'was fun
05:14<planetmaker>he :-)
05:15<LordAro>like i said, "i do a lot of delving into OTTD history :)"
05:15<planetmaker>seems quite like :-)
05:15<LordAro>ty :)
05:16<LordAro>when i get _really_ bored, i might do a similar "history" page for tt-forums :)
05:16<planetmaker>that's WAY more complex, I guess
05:17<planetmaker>though it makes one wonder: what are the noticable 'events' for a forum?
05:17<planetmaker>flame wars? Addition of <whatever> section? Mod appoint / leave. Ban of <whomever>?
05:18<LordAro>well, the 'events' that mostly get talked about
05:18<LordAro>in offtopic
05:18<LordAro>yes, probably :)
05:18<planetmaker>bah. off-topic. I don't read it ;-)
05:18<LordAro>r's departure thread, for instance
05:18<Eddi|zuHause>never looked into that forum either
05:19<@peter1138>who cares about someone leaving
05:19<planetmaker>it's mostly a "I leave because you all suck" - and in reality just craving for attention
05:20<LordAro>it wasn't quite like that though
05:20<DDR_>Hm, even mod appointments are just the normal noise of a forum ticking over contentedly.
05:20<LordAro>well, mostly :)
05:20<planetmaker>at least those"departure discussions" I've ever seen
05:20<LordAro>quite sad, really
05:21<DDR_>I guess addition of a category could be important. If half the community leaves, that's notable. But really, come to think of it, forums usually aren't that... interesting, as a thing.
05:23<DDR_>LordAro: Yes, but a fairly nice quit message.
05:23<DDR_>No swearing. :)
05:28<MINM>hmmmh, I wish it was possible to make heightmaps from scenarios
05:28<Terkhen>MINM: use a nightly
05:28<MINM>it is?
05:29<planetmaker>:-) I love that advice, Terkhen :-)
05:29<Eddi|zuHause>what was that again? "locate the existing implementation: 300$"
05:29<planetmaker>around that. Yes
05:29<Terkhen>I don't remember where, IIRC it is available from the scenario editor
05:29<MINM>do want.
05:31*MINM finally gets around to getting a nightly ottd
05:31<andythenorth>whenever /me feels like 'quitting' it's just attention whoring
05:31<andythenorth>usually solved by shipping something instead
05:32<planetmaker>yeah, that usually helps me, too ;-)
05:32<Eddi|zuHause>i thought you just say "i should remove supplies" in such cases :p
05:33<Eddi|zuHause>you get at least 15 replies "please don't" each time :p
05:33<andythenorth>that would be equally effective
05:33<andythenorth>although my thinking about that was genuine :P
05:34<planetmaker>I should find motivation to finally finish the new supply mechanism.... but I haven't yet found any
05:35<planetmaker>nor did I find any in fixing parameters of swedish rails...
05:35<MINM>wait, nightly means I need to compile, don't i?
05:35<andythenorth>planetmaker: I have written very little code recently
05:35<andythenorth>not sure why
05:35<andythenorth>maybe 'OTTD is dying'
05:35<planetmaker>andythenorth, newgrf code I haven't written much either
05:36<planetmaker>But then... doesn't matter. Interest in improving / continuing something goes and comes :-)
05:36<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: no, you don't need to compile
05:36<planetmaker>some hiatus on some newgrf projects is not that bad
05:36<planetmaker>MINM, that's why it's called "nightly"
05:36<planetmaker>because they're built every night...
05:36<planetmaker>(or rather evening)
05:37<MINM>then why did I get source when I clicked download?
05:37<planetmaker>because you clicked wrongly?
05:39<planetmaker>download-nightly gives you iirc grfcodec's nightlies
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05:40<andythenorth>planetmaker: (1) I should learn nml :P
05:40<andythenorth>(2) we should release 0.7.x or 0.8.x for FIRS
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05:40<andythenorth>on Bananas
05:40<MINM>well, I got that page, and I have a tarball with 64x ottd in it.
05:41<Terkhen>MINM: there is a dropdown that allows you to select what you want, it should be set automatically to the best download for your OS, but if it's not, choose it manually
05:41<planetmaker>if you, of course, expect a morphos binary or so, you're out of luck ;-)
05:41<andythenorth>planetmaker: releasing on bananas means doing your suggestion of changing grfid
05:41<andythenorth>that is well known now to be a sin
05:41<planetmaker>not every esoteric OS is compiled for for nightlies
05:41<andythenorth>sometimes good people have to do bad things :P
05:42<MINM>does it contain a ready-built running ottd in the tarball?
05:42<planetmaker>andythenorth, currently I'd advocate a bit patience, waiting for tb's re-design of the webpage :-)
05:42<planetmaker>MINM, no...
05:43<andythenorth>:o something is changing where? Bananas? Or
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: that depends on what you actually downloaded (FULL name)
05:43<MINM>so, Im in ubuntu, I've got openttd-trunk-r23050-linux-generic-amd64.tar.xz
05:43<andythenorth>incidentally my site is down due to dead box
05:43<MINM>now what do. >.<
05:43<Terkhen>MINM: that's not souce, that's a binary
05:43<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that should contain an executable
05:44<MINM>seriously, bear with me, I musn't have had enough tea yet today.
05:44<Terkhen>ubuntu deb packages are only compiled for releases
05:44<LordAro>MINM: i expected better of you ;)
05:44<Terkhen>but the generic linux binary should work fine too
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05:46<MINM>, it *is* a running version of OTTD in that folder. why did you say it isn't?
05:46<@peter1138>you said you had the source
05:47<MINM>no, I thought that. I saw a tarball containing folders, I think I got a little too used to apt-get and software manager.
05:47<MINM>my bad >.<;
05:48<MINM>as I said, not enough tea!
05:48<andythenorth>usual cause of failure
05:48<LordAro>silly... :)
05:48<andythenorth>people who've had enough tea don't screw up
05:48<LordAro>my ottd nightly gets auto-updated, 'cos i'm cool :D
05:49<MINM>when Im home alone I usually make a whole pot of tea and drink it all during the day
05:49<MINM>...i think I may have a problem.
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05:53<Sacro>i hate getting the ttd music stuck inm my head
05:57<@peter1138>what about it?
05:58<MINM>just thought Id throw it in here.
05:58<MINM>it's a map Ive made so Ill have more use for aircraft and ships.
05:59<MINM>should also provide for some interesting railway construction too, as there's some height differences in there
06:02<@peter1138>ah, k, thought you had a problem with it :)
06:02<MINM>what do you think about it?
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06:08<@peter1138>low snowline :)
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>i used some snowline multiplicator hack
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>to get the newgrf snowline in some sensible ranges
06:10<planetmaker>MINM, it's relatively smooth. Too smooth for my taste
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>problem is, the snowline "jumps" several heightlevels
06:11<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, what for do you need a "snowline multiplicator"?
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>so tiles go from no snow to full snow
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06:13<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the hacky part is really simple, in GetSnowLine(), HighestSnowLine() and LowestSnowLine() you add a factor like "return _snow_line->table[ymd.month][]*4-6*8;"
06:14<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, yes.... but what for? We have snowline level adjustment by the level...?
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but not for the newgrf snowline
06:15<planetmaker>how not?
06:15<planetmaker>I can also via newgrf adjust the snowline by the level
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: yes, but not to "more heightlevels"
06:15<planetmaker>or are you talking about some patch? oh
06:15<planetmaker>you should say so :-)
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i referred to the above picture, which obviously used that
06:16<planetmaker>has it?
06:16<planetmaker>I don't see anything unusual there
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>it looked more than usual
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>maybe it was just my imagination
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>btw, there's still a bug that the highest possible heightlevel is not actually generated
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>due to some weird rounding issues
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>causing mountain tops to be more flat than they have to
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>some other oddities about snow lines: alpine climate farms, which stop production in winter, will never get generated in places where that matters, because on game start it's always january, so the initial industry generation always gets the lowest possible snow line
06:22<Elukka>andythenorth: ran into some stuff about an industrial tramway and thought you might be interested
06:23<andythenorth>Elukka: this building is very TTD-like :)
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06:30<Eddi|zuHause>that is totally photoshopped! i can tell by the pixels!
06:41<MINM>it would be nice to have a treeline above which trees won't grow.
06:43<V453000>empty land without trees is ugly :P
06:45<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: voxels
06:46<Eddi|zuHause>there was a patch for that once
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06:47<Eddi|zuHause>but it would be way more "realistic" if the trees got smaller and smaller, not a "clean" cut
06:48<@peter1138>yeah it the wrong way
06:48<@peter1138>start of the game shuld be heavily forested
06:48<@peter1138>and then...
06:49<@peter1138>alas, the penalties for felling would be the wrong way around
06:54<Celestar>peter1138: did we ever complete custombridgeheads? :P
06:54<planetmaker>you didn't, Celestar :-(
06:54<Celestar>I know that I hit some blocker at some point.
06:54<@peter1138>something to do with reversing iirc
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>afair you started the c++ port because cbh met a dead end
06:55<planetmaker>alegedly it's one of the features which keeps two of the remaining three ttdp players from switching :-P
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>but then you never picked it up again
06:55<@peter1138>when i wrote it it was a tiny patch :S
06:55<@peter1138>and it worked
06:55<Celestar>something went really wrong with CBH + crossing bridges.
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>SAC and who else?
06:55<planetmaker>crossing bridges is a totally different topic
06:55<@peter1138>maybe i should look at it again
06:55<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, I don't recall. But iirc someone else wrote that, too
06:56<blathijs>Celestar: Maybe we should have another try at rewriting the map arrays! ;-)
06:56<blathijs>(not completely kidding)
06:56<planetmaker>look at michi's implementation thereof :-P
06:56<@peter1138>there's a 3d map array somewhere
06:56<Celestar>blathijs: ... what did we plan to do there? :D
06:57<blathijs>peter1138: Somewhere meaning the old map-rewrite branch?
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06:57<@peter1138>something smatz did iirc
06:57<blathijs>Celestar: Separating the ground from the stuff built on top, and allowing multiple stacked tile at one (x,y)
06:57<Celestar>blathijs: oh yeah.
06:57<Celestar>stations on bridges :D
06:58<@peter1138>bridges that exist ;)
06:58<Celestar>didn't we remove them? :P
06:58<Celestar>peter1138: where exactly is that from?
06:59<V453000>oh noes SmatZ's tunnel stuff :D
06:59<Celestar>what about it?
06:59<blathijs>Celestar: Also, generally clean up the map array and add accessors, which turned out to be too much to do at once
06:59<@peter1138>it's from that link ;)
06:59<@peter1138>we did the accessors
06:59<blathijs>peter1138: Yeah, that's why it might be good to do a second attempt :-)
07:00<Celestar>we could at some point, yeah...
07:00<blathijs>The screenshot peter1138 linked looks nice
07:01<@peter1138>it's 3 years old, so it's pretty dead
07:01<LordAro>"some point" < 12 months?
07:01<V453000>I dare to say it is amazing :D
07:02<@peter1138>i don't know how well it worked, but it looks cool :)
07:02<LordAro>or "some point" (TM)
07:02<blathijs>Though a quick look at the code from the git link suggests that it isn't a very generic solution
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07:07<Korenn>peter1138: that's beyond cool!
07:11<Sacro>I remember that screenshot
07:12<LordAro>i have seen it before also
07:16<V453000>there was even a video of it somewhere :)
07:19<Celestar>LordAro: yeah.
07:19<Celestar>I might have some time
07:20<LordAro>awesome :)
07:20<@peter1138>hmm, galaxy s2 £30 a month
07:20<@peter1138>do i want?
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07:23<LordAro>Celestar: if you do, you would be an active developer again! :)
07:24<MINM>nutracks 1.1.2 has some huge issues with the new planning track
07:26<@peter1138>good to see 32bpp's going well
07:27<Celestar>LordAro: yeah I'd love that.
07:27<Celestar>but it'll take some time ramping up :P
07:27<planetmaker>yeah... the 32bpp community seems "very active"
07:28<@peter1138>can anything be done with those sprites zephyris posted?
07:28<planetmaker>yes. They'll complement ogfx+landscape
07:28<Celestar>which sprites?
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07:28<planetmaker>at least partially. It's not sufficient to replace all
07:29<Celestar>blathijs: so ... what about the map thing needs to be ... refactored?
07:31<LordAro>wait, those are 32bpp? they look... normal
07:31<planetmaker>yes, they do
07:31<LordAro>too used to only seeing 32bpp-ez i guess
07:31<LordAro>(normal, as in 8bpp)
07:32<planetmaker>yes, got that
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>nobody said 32bpp had to be "rendered"
07:32<LordAro>i guess :)
07:32<planetmaker>I expected them to look slightly different, tbh. But Zeph used to draw everything 32bpp and then convert to 8bpp only
07:33<planetmaker>and the 32bpp-ez ground tiles should rather be called "ground" tiles
07:33<planetmaker>as they exceed the allowed dimensions. Which make them behave quite ugly
07:33<planetmaker>thus: unusable
07:33<planetmaker>they're non-flat as the grass goes beyond the tile border
07:33<planetmaker>which is a big no-no for ground
07:34<LordAro>he :)
07:34<planetmaker>I told them that. The reply I got was "looks better. We keep it". Oh well
07:35<planetmaker>results in things like grass on the road between bridge head and road
07:35<LordAro>project for me when readme viewer finished: sort out 32bpp-ez stuff
07:35<planetmaker>LordAro, first go for 32bpp. W/o ez
07:35<@Yexo>that would be nice
07:36<@Yexo>but if jupix repo is anything to go by: there is not much useful stuff there
07:36<planetmaker>it could be the added sugar. But 32bpp in itself would bring it along a looong way
07:36*Celestar ponders about unittesting openttd
07:36<LordAro>we have 32bpp, yes?
07:36<planetmaker>For years
07:36*LordAro is confussled
07:36<planetmaker>but no ez
07:36<@Yexo>not saying there are no nice graphics, but the vast majority are missing sources, are missing a licence, are incomplete, or are missing the "normal zoom" sprites
07:36<Celestar>using boost::test or google-test
07:36<planetmaker>people usually imply 32bpp = ez. Which is as wrong as it can get :-)
07:37<@peter1138>12:35 < planetmaker> results in things like grass on the road between bridge head and road
07:37<@Yexo>one of the problems is that the ez patch has never been complete so it has always forced a 32bpp blitter
07:37<@peter1138>^ which they then considered our bug, iirc
07:37<@Yexo>while there is technically no reason for that
07:37<planetmaker>peter1138, yes
07:38*LordAro decides to get info
07:38<planetmaker>Yexo, yes... and it should (IMHO) give means to be used with 8bpp, too
07:38<planetmaker>there's no reason to require 32bpp
07:38<@peter1138>hell yeah, i'd love an extra zoom level with 8bpp
07:38<LordAro>so, a 'proper' ez patch would be made irrespective of 32bpp, yes?
07:40<LordAro>but since now ottd can detect a 32bpp grf/base set, forcing (should) now not be needed
07:40<@peter1138>the different recolour stuff is totally irrelevant to zooming
07:40<LordAro>indeed, should be split off, at least
07:40<@peter1138>i still don't know what problem that solves
07:41<LordAro>me neither :)
07:41<@Yexo>better gradients for company colours
07:41<@Yexo>if you use the current system you can only use the 8bpp company colours, which limits you to 8 gradients
07:41<@Yexo>the different recolour stuff allows for a lot more gradients
07:41<planetmaker> which in itself would be a nice patch
07:42<planetmaker>and also doesen't require ez in the least
07:42<@Yexo>but it's way more visible with ez
07:42<@Yexo>the effect without that isn't so big
07:42<LordAro>from memory, yes - although as of latest patch, that still didn't work correctly - white was still grey, etc
07:42<@peter1138>yeah, i was thinking it doesn't work properly
07:42<LordAro>i write too slow :)
07:43<@peter1138>does it still use the mask?
07:43<@peter1138>i never looked at the algorithm
07:43<@Yexo>no clue how it works, I never looked at that code
07:43<LordAro>i think so
07:44<@Yexo>the zoom algorithm is broken too, it causes glitches when it zooms in 8bpp sprites
07:44<LordAro>:) it's all broken!
07:44<@peter1138>and people wonder why it's not added :)
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07:46<LordAro>oh good, i'm already a 'manager' on the 32bpp-ez-patches project @ #coop
07:48<planetmaker>you wanted to work on it... :-)
07:48<V453000>I thought you meant the irc channel for a second :P
07:49<Celestar>blathijs: do you have any of our old drafts for the map shit?
07:50<@peter1138>the ez patch add a palette_modifier_shadow
07:51<@peter1138>but... there's already palette_modifier_transparent. hmm
07:53<@peter1138>i dunno
07:53<LordAro>yay! lots to do...
07:54<@peter1138>right, i'm not looking any more
07:54<@peter1138>i still have biggui to finish off
07:55<LordAro>why was never added to trunk?
07:56<LordAro>@bug 4588
07:56<LordAro>nope, doesn't do that :)
07:56<LordAro>@flyspray 4588
07:56<LordAro>nor that
07:57<@DorpsGek>Celestar: help [<plugin>] [<command>]
07:58<Celestar>@help bug
07:58<@DorpsGek>Celestar: Error: There is no command "bug".
07:58<Celestar>it took him 16 seconds for figure that out? :P
07:59<Eddi|zuHause>@fs 4588
07:59<Celestar>Eddi's da man
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>"Unter den Blinden ist der Einäugige König"
08:00<planetmaker>LordAro, no reason. I guess no-one really looked at it properly
08:01<LordAro>how about now ;)
08:02<planetmaker>now: work work ;-)
08:03<LordAro>i can report it still applies without error
08:03<LordAro>but then i don't think has changed since :)
08:08<planetmaker>it actually has ;-)
08:08<planetmaker>the FS entry is from 11 April. The last change on that file from 7 May ;-)
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08:10<planetmaker>and one of the "reasons" is that the svn revision detection is not failsafe: one could mimic an svn version by a specifically crafted commit messages to the hg repo.
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>how's that relevant? you can override the version anyway
08:14<Celestar>glx :D
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08:44<CIA-6>OpenTTD: truebrain * r23055 /extra/website/ (10 files in 6 dirs): [Website] -Fix: long pending changes of website; various.
08:47<LordAro>" Do not need donations at the moment!" huh?
08:48<TrueBrain>you sound like that is new to you ;) We haven't been actively looking for donations for the last 2 years :P
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08:48<LordAro>how come? is the project being swamped with money?
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08:49<TrueBrain>There is enough flow of donations without us actively looking for it
08:49<KenjiE20>didn't you know, everyone here is like "take my money, I don't need it"
08:49<TrueBrain>attitude towards donating has changed a lot over the last few years, that is for sure :)
08:50<TrueBrain>from: "you donated? Why? It is free!" to "What? You play that game for free and never donated anything?", basically :P
08:50<KenjiE20>I wonder if that has anything to do with a certain block game.....
08:51<TrueBrain>not from what I have seen
08:51<TrueBrain>I more think that that certain game got that much money because of the change in attitude
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08:51<TrueBrain>then again, 60 euro for a non-indie game is a lot of money .........
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08:52<KenjiE20>yeah, they do seem to be getting to the "charging this much, cause we can" area
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08:52<TrueBrain>and then they also force you to be online when you play it
08:52<TrueBrain>which makes little sense to me ...
08:53<TrueBrain>and the worst, for me: then you also have to pay 15 euro per 4 maps extra ...
08:53<TrueBrain>I cannot understand people seriously pay for that
08:53<TrueBrain>I remember the days I could download 100 maps FOR FREE
08:53<Terkhen>for what game?
08:53<KenjiE20>AA-title-4: The Rest of the Game DLC Now Avaiable!!11eleven
08:53<TrueBrain>every game Terkhen :P
08:54<TrueBrain>Call of Duty: Black Ops costs in total 120 euro to get the game + 4x 4 maps atm .... counterstrike I downloaded for free (because I had Half-Life) and it came with 8 maps, and I downloaded ...... MANY over the years
08:54<TrueBrain>greed is good, I guess
09:00<Terkhen>with valve games you still get the new content for free
09:00<TrueBrain>it is one of the only that keeps true to his statements, yeah
09:00<KenjiE20>Terkhen: but you game is borked until you finish the 20bilion gb update :P
09:00<TrueBrain>I jsut wonder why game industries want to rob me blind .. I rather spend some money on indie games, and have equal amount of fun with it
09:00<Terkhen>mostly because they want to drag people into their online gaming thing
09:01<TrueBrain>I bought games like Achron. Lovely games. Not as pretty as others, sure, but equal amount of fun tbh
09:01<Arafangion>They're also pretty horrid to work for.
09:02<TrueBrain>I installed Cities XL 2012 a few days ago ... omfg ... what a waste of money is that game. The amount of bugs I found in the first 10 minutes exceeded the amount of memory in my head I wanted to spend on it :P
09:02<TrueBrain>can't understand why anyone would pay such amounts of money on such games ..
09:02<TrueBrain>ugh, enough ranting against the gaming industry :P
09:02<TrueBrain>I am just happy we can give you guys a game like OpenTTD free of charge
09:02<Terkhen>yes... many companies follow the philosophy of "release something broken now, fix in a few months"
09:03<Arafangion>If at all.
09:03<KenjiE20>s/fix/fix and finish/
09:03<Noldo>it's more money earler
09:03<TrueBrain>indeed: if at all :D
09:03<Terkhen>sadly, yes
09:03<TrueBrain>Cities XL 2011 never got fixed of his memory problems. sadly, 2012 version has EXACTLY the same issues
09:03<Arafangion>Computers have 16 GB of RAM, anyway.
09:04<KenjiE20>I miss big transport infrastructure in cities
09:04<Terkhen>if the previous version made money anyways, why bother? :P
09:04<KenjiE20>at least SC4 had highways and stuff
09:04<TrueBrain>which brings me to the rant of for example Roller Coaster Tycoon or Call Of Duty: the identical same game, the same weapons, the same maps, the same everything .... yet it is a new version and they ask again money from you
09:04<Terkhen>hi Belugas
09:04<planetmaker>hi Belugas
09:04<TrueBrain>I laughed my ass off that the creator of CoD MW3 said it was not a copy/paste of MW2 ... "it now had better lighting, better textures and better looking maps"
09:04<TrueBrain>so .. how was the gameplay not a copy/paste?
09:05<Terkhen>if you only care about graphics, it is not a copypaste :P
09:05<Arafangion>All modern games are just graphics. :(
09:05<TrueBrain>which moron cares about gfx when playing a game .....
09:05<Arafangion>Most game players..
09:05<TrueBrain>I played BF3 yesterday .. first on the XBox ...
09:05<TrueBrain>the controls made me cry
09:05<TrueBrain>next on the PC
09:05<TrueBrain>omfg ...
09:05<@Belugas>hi hi my friends
09:05<KenjiE20>console fps =/
09:05<TrueBrain>I was so fucking annoyed
09:05<TrueBrain>I can only go from A to B
09:05<TrueBrain>I cannot go via C
09:06<TrueBrain>as then I am "leaving the mission area"
09:06<TrueBrain>just another shooter
09:06<TrueBrain>running from A to B
09:06<TrueBrain>shooting what comes at you
09:06<TrueBrain>owh, yeah, "and it looks pretty"
09:06<KenjiE20>no more sneaky gits on karkand?
09:06<Terkhen>All modern games are just graphics <--- that's good for me, if a lot of good games came out I would be broken most months :P
09:06<TrueBrain>worth my 60 euros? A hooker is money better spend
09:07<planetmaker>suddenly it feels dirty here :-P
09:07<Arafangion>TrueBrain: Unlike hookers, though, when you're done with the game, you have no adverse issues other than a slight lack of sleep.
09:08<KenjiE20>same nagging feeling of disappointment later too :p
09:08<TrueBrain>and you still hav ethe puke next time you pick it up
09:08<TrueBrain>so I see no difference :P
09:11*Arafangion is suddenly unable to distinguish.
09:12<TrueBrain>but, to end with some positive: I do like that Steam is allowing indy-developers, and they are doing a good job there
09:12<blathijs>Celestar: There is a branch in the SVN repository, I think
09:12<TrueBrain>I proudly bought a few good indy games, which really were worth their money :)
09:12<KenjiE20>also, bullethell on steam
09:12<blathijs>Celestar: Not sure if we actually wrote a lot of docs up front
09:12<KenjiE20>that amused me
09:12<Celestar>blathijs: yeah. I'm trying to find out what we actually tried to do :P
09:12<Celestar>I know there were about 120 opinions of how to do it :P
09:13<TrueBrain>and now, now I need a graphic artist
09:13<TrueBrain>Osai: where are you buddy? :)
09:13<KenjiE20>you need a minion whistle :p
09:14<TrueBrain>Osai did all the imagery on the OpenTTD website for me :D He is that awesome :)
09:15<TrueBrain>just it has been 2 years or something we last worked on it :P
09:15<KenjiE20>it ain't broke yet :)
09:17<Celestar>blathijs: I'm still wondering about those unittests :P
09:18<blathijs>Celestar: unittests?
09:19<blathijs>Celestar: This seems to be relevant docs:
09:19<Celestar>blathijs: I was wondering whether the basic map/tile functionality should be unittested. That'd make modfying it easier
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09:21<blathijs>Celestar: Probably makes sense, I guess
09:22<Celestar>blathijs: plus maybe then unionizing the current map struct.
09:22<blathijs>I guess the current map struct isn't regular enough to allow unionizing, but I'm not sure
09:23<blathijs>also, if you introduce the concept of layered tiles, your unittests will probably break everywhere :-)
09:23<Celestar>I have that feeling as well
09:23<blathijs>(read: most accessor functions will need to be updated to include a height parameter, or something)
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09:31<Jabol>Can someone give me a link to an article about making NewGRF's?
09:34<Jabol>Hmm, there's no article in the about it? I thought there was.
09:34<@Yexo>not anything comprehensive
09:36<Jabol>Can you give me the link to that article?
09:36<@Yexo>I don't know of there is one
09:36<@Yexo>if there is one, it's small and unimportant
09:37<@Yexo>the one I gave above is the only tutorial about nml. There is also about nfo
09:37<@Yexo>why do you want an article on so badly?
09:38<@Yexo> hosts the official nfo and nml specs
09:38<@Yexo>and also the best tutorials
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09:44<Starhero>i am having an issue with some NewGRF. One is throwing and error and I am not sure how to go about debugging (I believe it is incompatiable with something else but the error is not very informitive) Could someone possibly help?
09:45<LordAro>the error report is not very informative if we don;t know the error message
09:45<Jabol>Yexo: It explains the coding, but not the required sprites.
09:45<Jabol>I want to make a new-looking train.
09:45<Jabol>But I don't know how big the sprites are supposed to be.
09:45<@Yexo>ah, so you need
09:46<@Yexo>or take a look at an existing project from and copy the sizes from there
09:46<@Yexo>Starhero: which grfs / which error message?
09:46<Starhero>This is an SS of the error..let me also SS the packs...I am new so don't eat me even if i am a tasty noob! :P
09:46<@Yexo>can you also make a screenshot of your newgrf window?
09:47<Starhero> <-- list of GRFs
09:48<Starhero>I turned on debugging GRFs via windows CMD but the text is so jumbled i don't want to even comb through it.
09:48<@Yexo> <- see that
09:48<@Yexo>set the right parameter to override that safeguard
09:49<Celestar>blathijs: hm...
09:50<Sacro>Running a grep -r from / is quite slow
09:50<@Yexo>blathijs / Celestar: did you look at the link to michi_cc's repository that planetmaker posted earlier?
09:50<Celestar>Yexo: no.
09:50<Celestar>where is it, I have a bit of a shaky connection here
09:50<@Yexo>that already allows layered tiles IIRC
09:50<Starhero>ahh! So how many of these GRF's have wikis? Since i wish i could get some info with the cargos and such...and vehicle intro dates...Also is there ever going to be URL LINKED (like actually clickable) links in the discriptions of the GRFs in the content browers...
09:51<@Belugas>mmh.. searching a needle in a <hai??> stack
09:51<Starhero>I found myself blindly d/ling them since they sounded cool...wiht out going to the forums..
09:51<@Belugas>hey what???
09:51<Celestar>thankies ...
09:51<@Yexo>Starhero: a few have. This link to this one is visible in the screenshot you posted
09:51<Starhero>because of the fact that i would have to manaully type in the link...and that is annoying when you are on a d/l crazy for new content.
09:51<Starhero>yes but i can't click in IN game...
09:51<Starhero>to open my browser :P
09:51<Celestar>Yexo: I'll have a look ;)
09:52<@Yexo>that's a feature request that's been open for quite some time
09:52<@Yexo>I do have a half-finished implementation for windows
09:52<Starhero>Ah! That is the OS of choice for me (for gaming..:P)
09:52<@Yexo>if you go to you can see all the online content with clickable links
09:53<Starhero>AH! Thank you again! this is more imformitive then i thought (coming into the IRC that is)
09:54<Starhero>Ok now to set this GRF settings...Tho i ask you this..before i do that..might you review those GRFs in the screen shot and if you know of any problems i might have with those all on? I actually had disabled say FIRS because of alos problems with that one..(it was with ECS base_
09:55<Celestar>Yexo: is that just the framework or are there some testable features?
09:55<@Yexo>not too sure about the last state. But I've seen some screenshots with multiple railtypes on one tile (both diagonal and not crossing eachother)
09:55<@Yexo>and different snow amounts of tiles with foundations
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09:59<Celestar>at least it compiles :D
10:00<Starhero>btw i swear this game looked different at least a few years it actually LOOKS LIKE TTD! which brought back sooo many hours of wasted life memories :P and now i am wasting more :P
10:00<Starhero>I played this game when I was like 9
10:01*KenjiE20 hasn't really stopped since '94
10:02<Starhero>Also IIRC ttd was the start of the tycoon crazy..and no game has done exactly what ttd has done (tbh all other tycoon games such compaired to this game)
10:02<Starhero>Would i be correct with that statement?
10:03<KenjiE20>TT was renamed TT to fit in with microproses existing tycoon brands, so.....
10:03<@peter1138>railroad tycoon
10:03<Starhero>eh never liked those...i guess cuz i rather have full transport control..not just trains...tho i use trains the most in ttd
10:03<@peter1138>Starhero, it always looked like ttd :S
10:04<Celestar>I liked RRT
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10:05<Starhero>maybe it was that when i first heard of ottd it wasn't exactly playable? idk...something put me off from it ..and made me get ttd the orgin and played that on windows..or something but got annoyed by somethine about it and stopped playing the ottd seems to just replace ttd for me...rather play this then the orginal...esp with addons.
10:06<blathijs>Yexo: Yeah, I saw it, but it looks like it hacks on layers a bit. Not entirely sure, though.
10:07<Celestar>I don't find it O_o
10:07<Starhero>oh and one other thing i wish i could have a better understanding over.. Horsepower..yes i have seen the wiki page and i have see the forums post on it..but there no way of have 100t to 50hp or 100hp? what is a BASIC rule for making sure my trains run at LEAST on flat land ...and accelerate decently? Trying to figure out Newtons and all that crap hurt my brain :P
10:10<blathijs>Celestar: Don't find what?
10:10<Celestar>blathijs: his changes :P
10:10<Celestar>at least not here
10:11<Celestar>hm.. there's a submap head
10:11<Celestar>2 years old
10:14<blathijs>Celestar: newmap.git
10:14<blathijs>I assume
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10:15<blathijs>Celestar: Then click the ... under the summary of changes to see all of his changes (reading them in chronological order makes sense :-p)
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10:16<blathijs>Celestar: It seems this is is the critical commit:
10:18<blathijs>Celestar: and this one (in reverse order):
10:20<blathijs>Celestar: Apparently, he changes the map array to be size_y arrays of each size_x elements, and an array of size_x * size_y integers (the offsets)
10:20<blathijs>the offset is the position within the array of size_x size that the "base" tile for a given (x,y) is located
10:21<blathijs>then, he stacks multiple tiles by making the size_x array size_x + 1 long and shifting a bunch of offsets
10:22<blathijs>Not sure if my explaination is helping ;-p
10:23<Celestar>it is. :)
10:25<Celestar>I'm still wondering whether this is the way to go.
10:26<blathijs>Though it seems that these "associated tiles" are not really layered tiles, more like a means to separate the ground from the railway tracks on top
10:26<Celestar>we need more RAM :P
10:26<Celestar>and just have _map[x][y][z] :P
10:27<blathijs>e.g, there is a GetTileType(TileIndex) like before, but also a HasTileByType(TileIndex, TileType)
10:27<LordAro>arrays of arrays of arrays...
10:27<blathijs>but that doesn't seem to handle crossing bridges, for example
10:28<Celestar>why not store a std::vector<Tile> for each X,Y?
10:28<Celestar>with many (most?) of them just having one element.
10:28<blathijs>Celestar: I agree that this way of storing extra tiles is a bit cumbersome, but the exact way of storing these extra tiles is easy to swap out (seems like it's properly abstracted away)
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10:28<blathijs>Celestar: Performance! (I guess)
10:29<Celestar>blathijs: well, that could be easily tested I guess. Just make a prototype where each vector has only one element ..
10:29<Celestar>blathijs: and see how it changes ..
10:29<planetmaker>celestar, blathijs, iirc michi made some performance tests on that. you might want to ask him for it
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10:30<blathijs>michi_cc: *poke*
10:30<Celestar>planetmaker: thought so
10:30<blathijs>I suspect that a vector per tile is very memory intensive as well
10:31<blathijs>but well, I'm curious about what the plan for these associated tiles is?
10:31<blathijs>It looks a bit like michi_cc is going in the right direction, but is not going far enough ;-)
10:32<blathijs>His commits are nice and contained, though :-D
10:32<Celestar>a vector isn't that big :P
10:32<planetmaker>iirc the idea was to only store additional levels where actually needed
10:32<planetmaker>thus keeping memory consumption in check
10:32<Celestar>blathijs: you could even boil it down a bit further. only use a vector if num_elements > 1
10:33<Celestar>blathijs: otherwise store the data directly.
10:33<@Yexo>Celestar: that requires at least one byte extra per tile for num_elements
10:33<Celestar>uno bit.
10:34<@Yexo>yes, one bit
10:34<@Yexo>but there is no more space in the current map array, so that means extending it by a byte
10:34<planetmaker>I guess that needs doing anyway at some stage
10:34<@Yexo>that depends on the implementation
10:34<Celestar>not really, because for example the "has bridge" bits are no longer needed ...
10:35<@Yexo>currently we use 9 bytes per tile, with michi_cc's implementation you can make it 8 and use stacked tiles when you need more
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10:35<planetmaker>hm, what did he remove to reach 8?
10:36<@Yexo>not sure he already did, but that was the plan at least at some point
10:36<@Yexo>but you don't actually have to remove anything, that's the nice part
10:36<blathijs>Yexo: Also, this one bit "vector or direct" must be stored _outside_ of the Tile struct, of course
10:36<Celestar>really? :P
10:37<blathijs>Celestar: Though "only use a vector if num_elements > 1" means to store a pointer instead of a Tile struct in the main map array, I guess
10:37<@Yexo>still don't really see how that would work
10:37<@Yexo>a vector consumes at least 12 bytes of memory, most likely a bit more
10:37<blathijs>Messy, I'm afraid :-)
10:38<@Yexo>8 bytes for a pointer and 4 bytes for the size
10:38<blathijs>Yexo: Can't a vector just have its elements allocated inline?
10:38<@Yexo>no, each class must have a known size
10:39<@Yexo>known at compile-time
10:39<Celestar>blathijs: vectors are inline
10:39<@peter1138>it's only 600MB for a 2048x2048x16 map
10:39<blathijs>Ah, right. But you could create vector code that does work like that
10:39<@peter1138>that's nothign ;)
10:39<@peter1138>minecraft-style chunks? heh
10:39<planetmaker><3 download gamefile on server connect :-P
10:39<@Yexo>yes, but that means a fixed number of tiles per vector, which means there is no reason to use a vector anymore
10:39<@peter1138>lol pm
10:40<blathijs>Yexo: Fair point :-)
10:40<TrueBrain>planetmaker: time remaining: 4 hours and 12 minutes :D
10:40<blathijs>Yexo: Uh, wait. How does the current vector manage adding elements? It's not a linked list, right?
10:40<TrueBrain>would be epic to join coop games ... syncing after the download would be awesome! :D
10:40<Celestar>planetmaker: the vector meta information isn'T saved :P
10:40<@Yexo>it allocates memory via alloc, if it runs out of memory it uses realloc to allocate more
10:41<blathijs>Yexo: That applies to "inline" vectors as well
10:41<blathijs>Yexo: Those can also realloca
10:41<TrueBrain>Celestar: how did you manage to get blathijs active? :D
10:41<blathijs>TrueBrain: Talking about ancient plan :-)
10:41<@Yexo>what exactly do you mean with an inline vector?
10:41<TrueBrain>blathijs: :D
10:41<blathijs>TrueBrain: I won't be doing any coding, don't worry ;-p
10:41<TrueBrain>aawwhhh :(
10:41<LordAro>Truebrain: his minion call works better than yours ;)
10:42<TrueBrain>LordAro: please do make me a new one :P
10:42<blathijs>Yexo: You described struct Vector {int size; Element* elements}; I'm talking about Vector {int size; Element elements[]; }
10:42<blathijs>or something like that
10:42<LordAro>TrueBrain: no can do, i'm a minion myself, see :)
10:43<blathijs>(I'm not convinced the second example is actual code)
10:43<TrueBrain>LordAro: well, at least you come when I ring :P
10:43<@Yexo>ok. Now you want to have an array of those vectors. Say Vector[3]. How are you going to access the 2nd element?
10:43<Celestar>Vector[1] ?
10:43<blathijs>Yexo: Ah, right. I was thinking about having a union {Tile t; Vector* v} map[3];
10:43<@Yexo>vector[2] == vector + 2 == ((char*)vector) + 2 * sizeof(struct Vector)
10:44<Celestar>techincally it's (void*) isn't it? :P
10:44<blathijs>Yexo: e.g., only refer to the vector using a pointer, not statically allocate it
10:44<Celestar>vectors are inline :P
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10:44<@Yexo>blathijs: ah, that makes sense
10:46<TrueBrain>can't you guys take a separate channel; #openttd is not to talk about code, ieuw
10:46<TrueBrain>(I am kidding!)
10:47<Celestar>how's this: new tile type MP_EXTENDED. Then you have a std::map that maps an index into a bunch of stacked tiles?
10:47<blathijs>Celestar: I think that really depends on how many tiles will be stacked
10:48<Celestar>some natural number
10:48<Sacro>not n - 1 ?
10:48<Celestar>actually std::multimap
10:49<blathijs>and in michi_cc's approach of making the ground and the railway on top of it separate tiles, I think a large percentage of the tiles might have extra tiles
10:49<blathijs>(I actually start to think that the offset approach michi_cc is using isn't that bad, really)
10:51<Celestar>a multimap can store (n) elements with a key (TileIndex)
10:52<blathijs>Celestar: Yeah, but if 50% of the map accesses need to access the multimap, performance will probably suffer
10:53<Celestar>at some point, you have something that will not be O(1) :P
10:53<@Yexo>but map access really should be O(1)
10:54<blathijs>Even O(1) can be problematic for sufficiently large values of 1
10:54<blathijs>(That was not a joke ;-p)
10:54<Celestar>Yexo: which means you're stuck with vectors, in one form or another :P
10:54<Celestar>having a vector for each (stacked) tile is O(1).
10:55<@Yexo>michi_cc's implementation is also O(1)
10:55<Celestar>just the 1 is a bit larger than the current 1 :P
10:55<blathijs>Celestar: Your map approach is also O(1), right?
10:55<@Yexo>but requires a lot less memory
10:55<Celestar>Yexo: yes and no. insert is not O(1) :P
10:55<blathijs>(technically, any operation will be O(n), where n is the number of Tiles per TileIndex, of course)
10:55<@Yexo>neither is it with vectors
10:55<Celestar>blathijs: which one? multimap?
10:55<@Yexo>since you might have to do a realloc, which is not O(1)
10:56<blathijs>Celestar: Yes
10:56<blathijs>I think that modification at > O(1) is perfectly acceptable
10:56<blathijs>since structural modification will mostly happen after user interaction
10:57<blathijs>(modification of the data inside a Tile struct shouldn't be slow, of course)
10:57<@peter1138>what does splitting landscape and railway (and presumably road?) offer?
10:57<@Yexo>there are quite a few automatic changes, but those are not that common: industry placement / closure, creating houses
10:57<Celestar>some kind of hash.
10:57<Celestar>which have O(1)
10:59<@peter1138>do it the java way. individually allocated objects for each thing, sod the memory ;)
10:59<@Yexo>peter1138: multiple railtypes per tile (as long as they don't overlap, which is possible with diagonal rails)
10:59<@peter1138>that's possibly anyway
10:59<@peter1138>(given a few extra bits, probably)
11:00<blathijs>peter1138: I think splitting them makes stuff like bridges more sensible
11:00<@Yexo>I think that was the main point for splitting rail and landscape, but that's just one of the things. It also allows proper snow on both halfs of a tile with foundations
11:00<blathijs>e.g. Ground -> Rail -> Bridge -> Rail
11:00<blathijs>instead of Rail -> RailBridge
11:00<Celestar>there is hash_map<>
11:00<Celestar>which is O1.
11:00<@Yexo>and instead of having 2 bits for "has bridge above" you could have a pointer to a bridge struct (or way more information about the bridge)
11:00<@peter1138>blathijs, that's a more compelling argument :)
11:01<@peter1138>Celestar, we suffer from NIH don't forget
11:01<Celestar>you can implement your own hash map :P
11:01<@peter1138>there's probably some already
11:02<blathijs>Celestar: When talking about maps, I usually assume a hash map with O(1) access times :-)
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11:02<Celestar>hash maps are USUALLY O(1), but worst case is O(n)
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11:03<Celestar>maps are O(log n), but never worse :P
11:03<Celestar>I gotta run
11:03<TrueBrain>Celestar: a full collision hash .. would that be a hash? :D
11:03<Celestar>bbl (=
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11:05<MINM>i'm probably doing something dumb, but can anybody tell me why I never have those dutch town names?
11:05<@Yexo>you need to select them in your game options
11:05<Rubidium>oh... cool... Celestar runs when I arrive ;)
11:08<+michi_cc>peter1138: Splitting rail/road from the base landscape makes implementing "real" tunnels and bridges a lot more sane.
11:08<+michi_cc>And by moving the NewGRF animation part of houses and industry tiles, each tile can probably be reduced to 6 or even 5 bytes.
11:09<MINM>...ahah, that explains a lot.
11:09<MINM>I wish you could use multiple sets, though.
11:10<MINM>oh well, this is already quite useful :D
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11:11<@peter1138>michi_cc, yes, it's logical for tunnels & bridges
11:12<+michi_cc>The current code can only do but it was definitely designed with arbitrary stuff on bridges/in tunnels in mind.
11:13<MINM>it would be nice to have bridges like in locomotion.
11:13<@peter1138>but yeah, "real" bridges that can turn, etc...
11:13<@peter1138>that would make placing them harder though :p
11:14<MINM>or, alternatively, a way you could construct a bridge/tunnel independently of rail/road
11:14<MINM>with even double width bridges, so you can have a double line bridge that actually looks a bit sensible.
11:14<MINM>but yeah, dreaming...
11:15<MINM>personally Id already be happy if the tunnels get redone like bridges are, with downramps where applicable just like bridges have upramps.
11:15<MINM>that would make tunneled junctions much compacter!
11:16<@peter1138>you're volunteering? :)
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11:19<MINM>if somebody else would make tunnel sprites and somebody would point me to the bridge and tunnel placement code, I suppose I could try and apply a little harmless cargocult programming
11:19<Eddi|zuHause>whoa... too much activity today... can't follow...
11:20<blathijs>michi_cc: Your current code still assumes that all associated tiles are more or less on the same level, right?
11:20<blathijs>E.g., your HasTileByType accessor doesn't make much sense when you want to arbitrary stick different tiles
11:20<+michi_cc>Yeah, those functions would need to be extended with a z parameter.
11:22<blathijs>michi_cc: So you thought about it, but are leaving that for later. Coolness :-)
11:23<blathijs>michi_cc: Btw, a "z" parameter is a bit tricky, given that tiles can be sloped (the exact z of a tile might depend on the direction from which you're coming)
11:23<+michi_cc>The idea is to have a stack of e.g. '(base + rail + road) + (base + tree) + (base + rail)'. To optimize that access, there would be another bit next to the current has_next indicator to indicate if another height level follows.
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11:25<+michi_cc>Well, most of the really interesting stuff (i.e. rail, road, stations) are mostly accessed by walking from a neighboring tile, so most of the time you have a reference height and direction.
11:25<blathijs>michi_cc: Ah, a stack of stacks sounds sensible :-)
11:26<blathijs>michi_cc: In the original map array rewrite years back, we split every tile into a base and a construction, but one base plus arbitrary bases makes more sense I guess
11:26<blathijs>uh, arbitrary constructions
11:26<blathijs>and ack on the reference height and direction
11:26<blathijs>Good stuff :-)
11:29<Eddi|zuHause><Yexo> I think that was the main point for splitting rail and landscape, but that's just one of the things. It also allows proper snow on both halfs of a tile with foundations <-- it may also make arbitrary number of roadtypes (tram, trolley, cobble, asphalt), plus railtype (crossing) on any one tile possible
11:29<+michi_cc>Splitting some stuff into more than one tile makes a lot of sense, as for example only industry tiles, houses and stations actually need all map bits, just to support the occasional NewGRF animated tile. So by splitting a house tile into (base + anim) or even (base + house + anim) you can reduce the average tile size probably even below the current 9 bytes.
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11:31<+michi_cc>Which importantly means that more map can be cached by the CPU which might cover some of the more complex tile access.
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>you'll have an individual tile with <roadtype, roadbits> for each roadtype on one tile. and then some validation routine on construction that certain roadtypes exclude or override each other on a given roadbit
11:31<Eddi|zuHause>drawing may be evil, though
11:32<+michi_cc>Not more evil than it would be with the current map design and more road types, you just have to properly sort the road types from bottom to top.
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but how do you decide the order of cobblestone and asphalt roads?
11:33<+michi_cc>By not allowing it? ;)
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>then how do you want to handle drag-building asphalt roads across an existing cobblestone road?
11:34<Starhero>So...umm...I think i have came to the conclusion that FIRS is not compat. with ECS? and Vice versa?
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>Starhero: that is correct
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11:35<+michi_cc>By converting the whole intersection to either one of the road types.
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: with the added complexity that both roadtypes might not come from the same newgrf
11:35<Starhero>Hmm..idk which to use then...I'll have to sets for one or the other..but ..I ask you all this..which do you believe i should play first? FIRS game or ECS game?
11:35<Celestar>\o michi_cc
11:35<+michi_cc>Celestar: read a bit back
11:36<planetmaker>Starhero, both have their own style and challanges. None is "better" than the other
11:36<Celestar>michi_cc: yeah, I was thinking among similar lines.
11:36<planetmaker>I'm prejudiced as I wrote some parts of FIRS, though ;-)
11:36<Starhero>Yes, I figured that much, I should have noted I am asking for opionions.
11:37<Celestar>michi_cc: but I'm still wondering whether it makes sense to store the "additional" tiles in a hashmap.
11:37<Celestar>michi_cc: I'll try to conjure up some prototype and benchmark it :P
11:38<Celestar>but with CPU caching ....
11:38<Celestar>when last I looked we had like 99% cache hits
11:38<+michi_cc>Celestar: probably not, especially as a lot of the fuctions can be changed to take a Tile* directly (and some are already in the repo) which makes the actual storage totally unimportant.
11:39<Celestar>michi_cc: true, but what IS the most efficient way of storing shit :)
11:39<@peter1138>16:35 <+michi_cc> By converting the whole intersection to either one of the road types.
11:39<@peter1138>^ road / tram
11:39<+michi_cc>Don't compare my current repo with plain trunk though, as I've merged the TileExtended byte into the main Tile struct for easier coding. That alone is like a 15% performance hit in certain scenarios, but only temporary.
11:40<Celestar>is it?
11:40<Celestar>due to aliasing issues?
11:40<Celestar>i.e. more bloat blasted over the memory lines?
11:40<+michi_cc>peter1138: As long as there's a NewGRF flag for that it is resolvable.
11:41<+michi_cc>Celestar: No, because x86 CPUs need an extra instruction to multiply a pointer by 9 instead of 8.
11:41<Celestar>well I'm heading home. guess I'll be on later, or tomorrow
11:41<@peter1138>does it turn out to be 16?
11:41<Celestar>michi_cc: tried bloating the thing to 16?
11:41<planetmaker>Celestar, last time I checked, IRC also works via DSL from home ;-)
11:42<Celestar>planetmaker: but not too while while steering a vehicle over the highway :P
11:42<+michi_cc>Doesn't matter, the maximum scale factor is *8 for accesses like [ESI+ECX*8]
11:42<@peter1138>i see
11:42<@peter1138>and that last byte isn't accessed very often, i assume
11:43<Celestar>cya o\
11:43<+michi_cc>That too. After all current tiles are fully split the next step would be to rearrange the bits to free up now unused space which would allow reducing the size of the Tile struct.
11:43<planetmaker>Celestar, also that could work... but it might be out of the limits of 'save driving' ;-)
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11:57<Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> ^ road / tram <-- what about trolley catenary [must have road, may not have tram], overhead monorail [may not have tram, trolley], subway/lightrail [may not have road], lots of other ideas?
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>(although some of these restrictions may be weakened for gameplay purposes)
12:05<MINM>trolley could have tram as far as I care
12:05<MINM>subway is kindof interesting, though.
12:05<MINM>very invisible, but still
12:06<MINM>would it be possible to hack 'submerged' subways?
12:07<MINM>by having a tramway with the vehicles offset so they appear sunken into the ground?
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: theoretically yes, but that's not really the point
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12:30<Eddi|zuHause>we only have 3 "low IDs" left... and i already cheated a bit with VT08/VT12/ET30/ET56
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>but at least now all current engines have articulated parts
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12:37<planetmaker>in any case the amount of warnings is meanwhile drastically reduced, Eddi|zuHause :-)
12:37<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't actually counted them :)
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>> scripts/ 2>&1 | wc -l
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>not exactly pretty :p
12:39<planetmaker>18:36 Brot6: cets: update from r320 to r324 done (295 warnings) -
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, the rest are those sprite offset issues
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12:43<Eddi|zuHause>i could fix those myself, but i'm unsure which of the two options to take
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>(add 1 row of transparent pixels at the botton, or move 1 pixel down and add row of transparent pixels at the top)
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12:59*MINM keeps fingers crossed
13:00<MINM>error 1 :(
13:01-!-TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:02*MINM retries with clean source
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13:07<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23056 /trunk/src/currency.cpp: -Change: use the currency -> euro conversion rate for currencies that have been replaced with the euro, so when the switch happens the conversion rate at that point is roughly that of the real world conversion rate
13:07<Celestar>yo \o
13:08<TrueBrain>owh, him again :D
13:08<Rubidium>ohaj to the closest thing to an astronaut we've had in the channel (or am I mistaken?)
13:09<MINM>hmmmh, clean build works.
13:09*MINM blames the patch!
13:09<Celestar>Rubidium: about, yes :P
13:09<Celestar>how ya been?
13:10<Rubidium>quite civilian lately
13:10<planetmaker>hm.... which round of selection did you get to, Celestar?
13:10<Celestar>1st .P
13:10<planetmaker>so they interviewed you? :-)
13:10<Celestar>no, apparently I was too young :P
13:10<planetmaker>he :-P
13:11<planetmaker>Then I guess we're equal :-P
13:11<planetmaker>anyway bbl. sports
13:11<Prof_Frink>We should get sabdfl in here, just to annoy you.
13:13<Prof_Frink>Mark Shuttleworth.
13:14<Celestar>ah. him :)
13:18<MINM>where has my sound gone
13:18<Rubidium>it didn't like clean trunk and hitched a ride on the patch you applied
13:19<MINM>that's the odd thing
13:20<MINM>I have the clean 1.1.3 in the usual place, but that sound is gone too, and Im certain at least that one had sound
13:20<Rubidium>possibly the volume is set to 0 in the config
13:20<MINM>of ottd?
13:20<MINM>not in the os, Ive checked that already
13:21<MINM>where do I find that setting in openttd.cfg?
13:21<Rubidium>alternatively the "nosound" sound set is chosen?
13:22<MINM>oh, I found music_vol, it's at 127
13:22<Celestar>hm.. trains that can change the gauge during travel O-o
13:32<MINM>Ill assume 127 is hard enough?
13:32<Rubidium>music_vol isn't the volume of the sound
13:33<MINM>well, of the music, of course
13:34<MINM>but effect_vol is at 127 too
13:34<MINM>however, this worries me:
13:34<MINM>graphicsset =
13:34<MINM>soundsset = "NoSound"
13:34<MINM>musicset =
13:34<MINM>videodriver =
13:34<MINM>musicdriver =
13:34<MINM>sounddriver =
13:34<MINM>blitter =
13:35<Rubidium>all are autodetected, except the soundset which is forced to "NoSound"
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13:35<Rubidium>which incidentally might be a reason why there is no sound
13:35<Rubidium>but I'm known for giving things misleading names
13:35<MINM>Terkhen: I know, but I didn't feel the need for such a small piece
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13:36<Terkhen>I wouldn't call that small :)
13:36<MINM>huh, for some reason I can suddenly select sfx/mfx/gfx now, I couldn't before
13:37<LordAro>you can't ingame
13:37<LordAro>only in manin menu
13:37<LordAro>i don't really understand why :)
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13:38<MINM>oh well
13:38<MINM>I seem to have sound again.
13:39<Terkhen>good :)
13:40<MINM>why is it not possible to change sound/music volume in the game?
13:40<MINM>and wether or not the music plays
13:40<Rubidium>it is from the main menu
13:40<Rubidium>but it's primarily because of NewGRFs
13:40<Terkhen>hi supermop_
13:41<MINM>I can only change what music, not sound or playing or not
13:41<Terkhen>switch the volume to zero
13:42<MINM>meh, I disabled it again in the .cfg.
13:43<MINM>I was just commenting on the oddness of the fact
13:43<LordAro>music newgrfs?
13:43<MINM>...aaanyway, back to the patching.
13:43<MINM>Im trying to apply the chillcore patch pack to nightly source.
13:44<Terkhen>good luck with that, it is a huge patchpack
13:44<Rubidium>do you have a clue of OpenTTD's source and/or developing?
13:44<Terkhen>I wonder why they don't keep patchpacks as a bunch of diff files, I would have gone mad with a single one
13:44<MINM>well, Ive already managed to compile the clean source.
13:44<Rubidium>if the answer to both subquestions is no, then apply it to the version the patch was made from
13:45<Rubidium>do not try to apply it to any other version, it will more than likely fail in many aspects
13:45<Terkhen>MINM: you will get "rejects" that you will need to solve manually, and that requires knowledge of how the code works, how the different patches in the patchpack works, and what were the changes in trunk since the revision that the patchpack uses
13:46<MINM>I suspected that, but do you happen to have a spare r22273 laying around somewhere?
13:46<Terkhen>just check out that revision from the subversion repository
13:47<MINM>how? Ive seen how to get the current source, but I don't know how to get a specific version
13:47<Terkhen>subversion / mercurial / git allow you to do that
13:48<LordAro>downloading the source from is fairly useless
13:48<MINM>Ive got subversion, but a commandline application is of little use when you don't know the correct command
13:50<MINM>I mean, I know "$ svn checkout svn:// openttd"
13:50<MINM>but what are the correct magic words to get a specific version of that?
13:50<Terkhen>try svn -h checkout (IIRC) or google, subversion is simple to use
13:51<Terkhen>I don't remember if it used mercurial syntax for revisions or not so that will be faster
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13:52<Rubidium>MINM: start with svn help ;)
13:53<Rubidium>MINM: then the names of *all* available subcommands and only then determine which one is best to update your checkout to a particular revision
13:54<Rubidium>after that, use svn help <subcommand> to figure out what parameters it has
13:54<Rubidium>read the parameters carefully and then determine which one is the best for updating to a particular revision
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13:58-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
13:59<Terkhen>hi Alberth
14:00<@Alberth>hi Terkhen
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14:01<MINM>m@APC1:/media/NTFS/OTTD_build/openttd-trunk-r23050$ svn update -r 22273
14:01<MINM>Skipped '.'
14:02<Rubidium>so . wasn't a svn checkout
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14:03<MINM>what do you mean, rubi?
14:03<Celestar>try svn info . ?
14:03<@Yexo>MINM: how did you create that openttd-trunk-r23050 directory in the first place?
14:04<MINM>extracted /media/NTFS/OTTD_build/openttd-trunk-r23050-source.tar.xz
14:04<@Yexo>so it's not an svn checkout
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14:05<Celestar>Yexo: well THEORETICALLY it might be .p
14:05<@Yexo>sure, but..., given the earlier error message :p
14:06<MINM>ahah. not identical, then?
14:06<Celestar>svn saves repository data in an .svn directory.
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14:06<Celestar>if it's not there, svn doesn't know watta do.
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14:06<@Alberth>MINM: source code is the same
14:07<@Yexo>MINM: see
14:07<Celestar>hm. did TrueBrain throw me out? :)
14:07<TrueBrain>throw you out of what?
14:07<TrueBrain>type: @whoami
14:07<Celestar>nvm :D
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14:07<@DorpsGek>Celestar: I don't recognize you.
14:08<TrueBrain>you do need to authenticate :)
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: a source tarball misses all svn metadata
14:08<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: I don't recognize you.
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: so you can't just "update" it
14:08<Rubidium>Celestar: it's not only you ;)
14:08<MINM>gotcha. duly noted
14:08-!-mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ
14:08<@DorpsGek>LordAro: I don't recognize you.
14:08<LordAro>aw :(
14:09<MINM>"svn co svn:// 22273" seemed to work.
14:09<@Celestar>now you have the stuff in a directory called 22273 :P
14:09<@Celestar>but it's not revision 22273 :D
14:09<@Celestar>thanks Chanserv ...
14:09<TrueBrain>Celestar: but I doubt DorpsGek ever knew you :P
14:10<@Yexo>svn update -r 22273 <- that will now work if you go into that directory 22273
14:10<@Celestar>.. and rename the dir
14:10<LordAro>"svn checkout svn:// ottdsrc && cd ottdsrc && svn update -r 22273"
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14:10<MINM>done and done, in proper order
14:11<MINM>do like. :D
14:11<MINM>now we're getting somewhere
14:11<LordAro>tbh, for a 'proper' patchpack with lots of users, it should be set up in an mq at openttdcoop
14:13<Rubidium>LordAro: lies...
14:14<Rubidium>the biggest OpenTTD patchpack works pretty well without a mq ;)
14:14<Rubidium>(that ofcourse being OpenTTD itself)
14:15<@Yexo>mercurial patch-queue
14:15<LordAro>s/'proper'/'proper' 3rd-party/ ;)
14:16<Terkhen>the best is to work in a single patch until it is included, and then move to the next one :P
14:18<@Celestar>cya guys. some movie time
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14:20<Rubidium>patch packs are very effective in destroying getting them into trunk
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14:22<Eddi|zuHause><MINM> "svn co svn:// 22273" seemed to work. <-- the right syntax is "svn co svn://blah@22273"
14:22<MINM>would that get me r22273?
14:22<Terkhen>see you tomorrow
14:23<MINM>ah, kay, thanks
14:23<MINM>see ya, Terkhen
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>and the best thing is, this works even if the "blah" branch has been deleted already
14:23<@Yexo>that's not very likely for "trunk" :p
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, but if you want MiniIN@8000 or something :=
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>i still have 2 MiniIN checkouts for some reason
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>and a "dodgyhack.diff"
14:30<MINM>hmmmmh, what the shit
14:30<MINM>it compiled alright, but the exe fails to execute
14:31<MINM>well, it starts and immediately goes boom again
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>executed the right exe?
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>added the additional .grf files?
14:31<MINM>the only one.
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>(why does nobody ever read the installing instructions?=
14:32<Eddi|zuHause>why do i always type = instead of )?
14:32<MINM>why would I need additional .grf-s?
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>because i assume you want to compile chills patchpack?
14:36<MINM>who the hell puts installation instructions and required dependencies in a second post?
14:36<Sacro>yay for MiniIN :D
14:37<Rubidium>MINM: the same person that doesn't use a mq/repository to have all required files in the same place
14:38<MINM>I suppose so.
14:39<LordAro>woo, redvsblue was good this week
14:39<MINM>got .grfs, still won't start
14:40<LordAro>have you tried starting it from the console?
14:40<LordAro>that may tell you why it isn't starting
14:41<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: the installing instructions include renaming a grf
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14:54<appe>tron grf
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14:54*appe plants the idea.
14:54<LordAro>MINM: now the fun part begins ;)
15:00<MINM>which fun part?
15:05-!-pugi [] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own]
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15:07<@Belugas>#I DON"T REMEMBER
15:08<@Belugas>#ANYTHING AT ALL
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>your caps is stuck!
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15:21<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23057 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: -Fix: [NoAI] AIOrder::GetOrderCount() did not hide implicit orders.
15:26<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: if only he remembered where that key is located...
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>damn this altzheimer desease must be getting worse... i'd blame the age :p
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15:29<@Belugas>I was yelling in the office, sorry it transpired on IRC :)
15:31<@Alberth>Belugas: your synaptic interface may need a bit more tuning :)
15:32<@Belugas>my synapses are tuned to overload!
15:34<@peter1138>I DON'T REMEMBER
15:34<@peter1138>I DON'T RECALL
15:34<Eddi|zuHause> <-- that looks wrong...
15:34<@peter1138>I'VE GOT NO MEMORY
15:34<@peter1138>OF ANYTHING
15:34<@peter1138>ANYTHING AT ALL
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15:36<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: I think the stuck caps is spreading
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>well he _is_ a thousand years old...
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16:25<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: planetmaker
16:25<planetmaker>wow :-)
16:25<renske>hi :)
16:26<Rubidium>good evening renske
16:27<renske>Can anyone point me in the direction of an explanation of OTTD signals that is aimed at, well, dummies?
16:27<@Yexo>have you tried the openttd wiki?
16:28<MINM>with that in another window, experiment!
16:29<Rubidium> might be useful as well
16:29<MINM>signals are things which take understanding, it comes with application
16:29<renske>yeah, application and lots of crashing.
16:29<renske>or maybe that's just me.
16:31<renske>thanks MINM and Rubidium
16:31<MINM>don't change signals when you've got a train driving around the place
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16:39<renske>it's mostly junctions and crossings where I get confused. I don't build super huge ones, but the signal placement is tricky.
16:40<renske>because it annoys me when trains are waiting endlessly when they really don't have to.
16:40<MINM>laying out the tracks in a good way is half the job, really
16:40<MINM>quite a lot of junctions can do with just block signals
16:41<planetmaker>though the easiest and more efficient way is: every signal which leads to a junction a path signal. done
16:42<MINM>not failsafe, though
16:42<renske>block signals are the most basic ones, right?
16:43<MINM>this one for example, is done entirely with just block signals. works like a charm, and it's possible to maintain massive speed
16:44<MINM>not to mention massive capacity
16:45<planetmaker>MINM: it is failsafe
16:46<planetmaker>if you _only_ use path signals
16:46<MINM>planetmaker: until a train reverses into an already reserved path
16:46<planetmaker>and the junction you show is considerably more complex than any path signal junction you can build
16:47<planetmaker>MINM: that only happens due to wrong signal placement...
16:47<MINM>nope, Ive seen it happen with perfect placement too.
16:47<planetmaker>or alternatively due to the wrong setting.
16:47<planetmaker>MINM: obviously that placement then is NOT perfect
16:47<MINM>wrong setting, maybe
16:47<MINM>but default setting none the less.
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16:48<planetmaker>i.e. make sure the train can't reverse
16:48<Elukka>renske: if you're not sure which signals to use, use path signals everywhere
16:48<planetmaker>into the junction. By proper signal distance
16:48<Elukka>99% of the time they're the best ones
16:48<planetmaker>the rule of placement with path signals is also only one very simple one: Put one where you want a train allow to stop
16:49<renske>aw, but I want fancy signals! :p
16:49<planetmaker>don't put one where a train shouldn't stop
16:49<planetmaker>i.e. too close after a junction or so
16:49<MINM>there's also this one:
16:49<Rubidium>MINM: the default for reversing at signals is false
16:49<Elukka>i think path signals ought to be the default basic signal with a prominent place in the signal menu
16:50<Elukka>because they're what most players will need most of the time
16:50<renske>ah, that one's aesthetically pleasing :)
16:50<Rubidium>(it might have been true a long time ago though)
16:50<MINM>pretty fast and compact, but capacity is slightly lower than the others
16:50<Korenn>MINM: wth, that flyover page has tracks with signals going both ways.
16:50<MINM>the one before transmogriefed?
16:51<Korenn>the bottom left to top right track has both tracks going south-west
16:51<MINM>which version?
16:51<Korenn>the top one
16:52<MINM>this? are you sure, I don't see a double.
16:52<Korenn>it's obviously faulty
16:52<Korenn>try going from bottom left to top right
16:52<Korenn>what track do you take
16:53<Korenn>oh wait
16:53<MINM>right hand one
16:53<Korenn>I think that's the strange signal grf
16:53<Korenn>that i'm not used to :)
16:53<MINM>yeah, the signals aren't very clear, Ill give you that
16:53<Korenn>the front facing signals look like they're backwards
16:53<MINM>but it's very easy to discern
16:54<MINM>by default (is a setting) signals are always are on the drive side!
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16:55<Korenn>that's true. But apparently I tend to look for the front / back of the signals when I check them
17:03<renske>I barely just moved on from point-to-point tracks. I think I'll hold off on the flyovers until I have enough trains to justify them. even though they're very cool-looking.
17:04<renske>also, that transmogrified junction seems to have signals just after exits. isn't that a bad idea? if trains would stop there, they'd block the path of other trains.
17:06<LordAro>gah, why is banshee using 600MiB of memeory?!
17:06<LordAro>i've only 1002MiB :L
17:06<LordAro>stupid memory leaks...
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17:23<MINM>at least it's not as bad as firefox
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17:24<MINM>bah, Ive had enough of patching for today
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17:34<planetmaker>LordAro: why do you report insulfrog's posting as spam?
17:35-!-Devroush [] has quit []
17:35<LordAro>i thought i saw spam in the signature
17:35<LordAro>it looked typical, perhaps i didn't look at it closely :L
17:36<LordAro>sorry :)
17:36<planetmaker>no worries
17:36<planetmaker>it's a link to his homepage ;-)
17:36<planetmaker>and looks suspicious on first sight
17:37<planetmaker>I just happened to have met the guy a few times before :-P
17:37<planetmaker>in irc
17:38<LordAro>yeah, now that i think about it, i recognise the name too
17:38<LordAro>in fact, i think i recognised it when i clicked on the topic link
17:38<LordAro>just the standard automatic-absent-minded action :L
17:39<planetmaker>well, just a case of 'shit happens' :-) And just closed it
17:44<planetmaker>I guess I'll close my eyes for a few hours now. Good night
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18:42<Arafangion>That reminds me of a friend I had in uni...
18:42<Arafangion>Every single one of his emails would be automatically classified as spam, somehow.
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18:43<Arafangion>He didn't have automatic sigs or anything, just a weird way of writing. :)
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---Logclosed Wed Oct 26 00:00:14 2011