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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-26

---Logopened Wed Oct 26 00:00:14 2011
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02:30<Terkhen>good morning
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03:08<planetmaker>hello Celestar
03:22<Terkhen>hi planetmaker and Celestar
03:23<Ammler>Hi Terkhen
03:24*MINM waves
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03:29<planetmaker>salut Ammler, blathijs, MINM
03:34<Terkhen>hi Ammler and blathijs :P
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04:05<Celestar>I hate indian coders.....
04:06<Celestar>if ($spid==500) write_output("500"); elsif ($spid==501) write_output("501"); elsif ($spid==502) write_output("502") ....
04:06<Celestar>45 more lines of this follow.
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04:06<@peter1138>uh what
04:07<@peter1138>do they get paid per line? :S
04:10<Celestar>peter1138: I hope so, because that would be the only semi-sane explanation...
04:11<Celestar>Make absolutely sure the reader totally understands that the function
04:11<Celestar>does something, but leave him in the dark as to what "something" is:
04:11<Celestar>sub do_perform_action {
04:12<@peter1138>openttd has a funny one
04:12<Celestar>yeah :)
04:12<Celestar>but I also found this :
04:12<Celestar> switch($pz_arguments->{NoOfDigit}) {
04:12<Celestar> case 2 {$padded_value = sprintf("%02d",
04:12<Celestar> case 3 {$padded_value = sprintf("%03d",
04:12<Celestar> case 4 {$padded_value = sprintf("%04d",
04:12<Celestar>...goes all the way up to 20.
04:13<DDR_>The Daily WTF
04:13<DDR_>Now brought to you by Celestar.
04:13<Celestar>I have a year's worth of WTFs from reviewing this code.
04:14<DDR_>Also: Well, at least he used a switch, and not a bunch of if...else...s
04:14<DDR_>Who's code are you looking at, anyway?
04:15<Celestar>an Indian development center
04:15<Celestar>I'm supposed to be quality assurance for their code.
04:15<Celestar>which is pretty easy a job tbh.
04:15<Celestar>because it's utterly worthless
04:16<Celestar>so spotting errors isn't .. hard.
04:18<Celestar>so I'm sending the shit back all the time.
04:18<Celestar>I'm just losing track of u
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04:19<Terkhen>I also hope that they are paid per line :P
04:21<Celestar>honestly, I hope they're not payed at all
04:25<Celestar>this part was apparently "code reviewed"
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04:32<@peter1138>that appears to be checking if a number will fit in a signed 32 bit integer
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05:26<Celestar>peter1138: that is exactly it.
05:26<Celestar>peter1138: in perl
05:26<Celestar>not that a ($number > 2^31) you know :P
05:28<Celestar>that's the problem with those languages. Any idiot can start hacking away and call himself "developer"
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05:29*LordAro waves :D
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06:25<Arafangion>Hmm. Food, movie, or openttd...
06:25*Arafangion can only pick two.
06:26<planetmaker>get a smartphone or tablet. Then you can have all three :-P
06:27<Arafangion>I have a smartphone, but I can't watch a movie *and* play openttd at teh same time!
06:27<planetmaker>though there are no official versions of OpenTTD for such devices
06:27<Arafangion>Certainly not while eating.
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06:29<Eddi|zuHause>get a PC, and you can totally do that
06:29<Arafangion>I have a PC.
06:30<planetmaker>then I indeed so nothing which stops all three activities persued at once :-)
06:30<Arafangion>Several, in fact, but openttd and the movie will each demand 100% focus.
06:30<planetmaker>lie ;-)
06:30<Arafangion>planetmaker: You are clearly a robot, or a girl.
06:30<planetmaker>Start a few AIs. Have them build for you and watch movie :-P
06:30<planetmaker>i.e. OpenTTD plays for you ;-)
06:31<planetmaker>lool :-)
06:31<Arafangion>planetmaker: Actually, I sometimes think about making an AI.
06:31<planetmaker>Arafangion: don't make a new one. Make an existing one better
06:31<planetmaker>(my 2ct. There are many AIs which are started. But very few very good ones)
06:32<planetmaker>much could be gained there by collaboration
06:32<planetmaker>I think
06:32<Arafangion>But AI's tend to be very particular.
06:32<planetmaker>in what way?
06:32<Arafangion>The way the logic's implemented, for instance.
06:32<Arafangion>I'd prefer a fuzzy logic system.
06:34<planetmaker>even that in itself does not lend itself automatically to "write an AI from scratch"
06:36<Arafangion>Well, you could reuse pathfinding algorithms, etc.
06:36<Arafangion>But the AI rules are completely dependant on the engine. Change the engine, heck, add or remove rules, and all the other rules have to be changed. (Or at the least, tweaked)
06:37<V453000>it might be easier to teach someone to play as you want :P
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07:10<Eddi|zuHause>why's my ICQ connection so unstable lately?
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07:17<Celestar>same here
07:17<Celestar>for a few weeks now even
07:17*planetmaker ceased to use ICQ. Some time ago
07:21<TrueBrain>what? ICQ still exists?!
07:23<MINM>irc still exists.
07:25*blathijs stopped using ICQ when his account stopped working all of the sudden...
07:28<Celestar>same :P
07:28<@peter1138>they like to fiddle the protocol
07:28<@peter1138>but nobody uses the official client these days
07:28<@peter1138>nobody uses it these days :p
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07:30<Dany0>hey guys, quick question, what was the angle of dimetric projection openttd uses again?
07:33<__ln__>he's back! \o/
07:33<Dany0>seriously, please
07:34<Dany0>how do you remember me?
07:36<planetmaker>hard not to ;-)
07:37<Dany0>? so can you tell me the angle
07:37<planetmaker>it's one px up and two to the side
07:37<Dany0>or at least the sprite reference
07:38<planetmaker>just look at one of the many ground sprites... it tells you all you need basically
07:40<planetmaker>iirc it's 26.5° as that's said to be the angle for one up = two horizontal. But I never bothered to verify.
07:40<Celestar>draw it :P
07:41<Celestar>it's not isometric :P
07:42<planetmaker>that's why it's called dimetric, Celestar ;-)
07:42<planetmaker>No-one said isometric
07:42<Celestar>I read it somewhere in some docu :P
07:43<Celestar>can't remember where (=
07:45<@peter1138>oh hey Dany0
07:45<@peter1138>so is it still not a sloped sprite?
07:45<planetmaker> <-- you also have here the 19 possible ground tiles
07:46<planetmaker>the first is the flat ground tile
07:46<Dany0>Tim asks if it's worth the work
07:46<planetmaker>which gives you the dimensions for a tile
07:46<planetmaker>one height level is 8px
07:46<Dany0>(I think what he says is that he's worried no one would buy qubicle for openttd)
07:47<@peter1138>who's Tim?
07:47<planetmaker>and "worth the work" is in the eye of the beholder. You need to have fun. But actually buy stuff?
07:47<Dany0>peter1138: maker of qubicle
07:47<Celestar>michi_cc: you about?
07:48<+michi_cc>Celestar: I am
07:48<planetmaker>Dany0: the question is then: what would I gain by using "cubicles" and *whatever* software?
07:48<planetmaker>Over what I have now
07:48<Celestar>michi_cc: I'm still pondering about the map array. You said that moving m7 into Tile reduced performance by a significant amount?
07:49<Dany0>there is no fucking cubicles!
07:49<@peter1138>Dany0, i was impressed by the way you lined up a sprite, rotated it a bit, and used that as the size of the new qubicle object as if it was somehow relevant
07:49<+michi_cc>Celestar: Last comment on
07:49<Dany0>1. it's called a voxel
07:49<Celestar>thanks (=
07:49<planetmaker>ok, calm down
07:49<Dany0>2. a voxel is not a cube
07:49<Dany0>3. minecraft is not a voxel game
07:50<Terkhen>heh :P
07:50<Dany0>4. polygons suck
07:50<Dany0>5. qubicle is better then Blender for sure
07:50<planetmaker>you can rant on or focus on the real question of "what would I gain"?
07:50<Celestar>michi_cc: 7% in the tile loop alone sounds a lot.
07:51<Celestar>michi_cc: any idea what exactly causes it?
07:51<Dany0>planetmaker: it's better then blender, faster do do, easier and much faster to render
07:51<Dany0>planetmaker: but you can't batch export
07:51<Dany0>planetmaker: and it doesn't save as *.pcx
07:51<Dany0>planetmaker: it works in wine 100% platinum I'd say
07:51<@peter1138>saving as pcx is irrelevant
07:51<MINM>oh god, is he back?
07:52<Dany0>how do you remember me?
07:52<Dany0>I don't even remember half of you
07:52<@peter1138>any non-lossy image format is good
07:52<Dany0>peter1138: yes no problem there
07:52<planetmaker>Dany0: people who fall in a rant that easily are easily remembered ;-)
07:52<Dany0>well all I can say is
07:52<Dany0>I never ranted?
07:52<Dany0>never mind
07:52<Dany0>Tim said this:
07:52<+michi_cc>Two simple factors: Worse cache behavior and the fact that the x86 instruction set allows max *8 in a single address calculation. So for anything with a stride > 8 you need at least two instructions for every memory access.
07:52<Dany0>if you guys go, and try out the basic edition
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07:53<Dany0>and if you like it
07:53<bondau>Hello :)
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07:53<planetmaker>Dany0: the system requirements are already a fail for me ;-)
07:53<bondau>long time play, first time IRCer
07:54<Dany0>and you're willing to pay for it(I don't support it though, I think the basic edition is sufficient enough)
07:54<planetmaker>you'd need to give me an OSX one
07:54<Dany0>and you make a topic in feature requests
07:54<Dany0>he will do it
07:54<@peter1138>who are you talking to though?
07:55<@peter1138>graphic artists?
07:55<@peter1138>they're the people who use the tools
07:55<Dany0>who's willing to make sprites
07:56<planetmaker>The best way to convince people, I think, might be to actually start using it for this sprite purposes and post in the graphics development section
07:56<Dany0>I am no artist sorry
07:56<MINM>for some reason forces me to download the png :S
07:56<Dany0>plus it can't render dimetric yet
07:57<planetmaker> <-- probably here
07:57<@peter1138>is it perspective then?
07:57<planetmaker>MINM: yes, it might do that
07:58<Dany0>peter1138: no it's isometric
07:58<planetmaker>it only shows for me with the appropriate FF plug-in
07:58<Dany0>peter1138: it's all ortographic
07:58<Dany0>so far
07:58<@peter1138>i thought i saw you move the angle around
07:58<planetmaker>it's also not meant to be an image galery. Just the web-interface of the repo
07:58<Dany0>it's possible he will add perspective to enable minecraft/slab6-like modelling, but it's just in the clouds
07:59<planetmaker>Well. Di-metric is what we need
07:59<planetmaker>MINM: and interestingly it shows in the preview in my irc client ;-)
08:00<planetmaker>MINM: I use the 'Open in Browser' add-on
08:00<Dany0>ok so Tim promised dimetric will be in next or after next version
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>dimetric with very odd stretching factors for each dimension
08:01<planetmaker>It makes sense, Dany0. It's the most common sprite perspective
08:01<Dany0>planetmaker: you mean globally?
08:02<planetmaker>as it's easy to draw rectangles in it
08:02<planetmaker>without looking too bad
08:03<Dany0>planetmaker: are you sure?
08:03<Dany0>I think the most common is isometric and classic side-view
08:03<Dany0>and he promised
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>the dimetric that openttd uses is very common
08:03<Dany0>qubicle will ship with the OpenTTD palette
08:03<@peter1138>when people say "isometric" in the context of computer games, they mean dimetric
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>it fits neatly in screen coordinates when diagonal lines
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>have 2px left/right and 1px up/down
08:04<Dany0>ok guys if you think so I'll believe you
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>that results in an angle of 26.5°
08:04<@peter1138>maybe you should read that wikipedia link :)
08:04<Eddi|zuHause>which is slightly smaller than the "original" isometric angle of 30°
08:05<Dany0>peter1138: I've been there lots of times, thanks
08:05<@peter1138>are you sure? you wouldn't've just asked that question if you'd read it.
08:05<planetmaker>to be precise, the angle is atan(0.5)
08:05<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: i'd see that phrase like "yes, i did read the readme" :p
08:05<planetmaker>or so
08:06<Dany0>planetmaker: thanks
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>well, i did explain that already 2 days ago...
08:06<Dany0>planetmaker: ?
08:07<planetmaker>Dany0: if you read the wiki link, you'd not need calculate ;-)
08:08<Dany0>you need more accuracy
08:08<bondau>Hey Guys, so im thinking of setting up an OpenTTD server, what kind of bandwidth do they use?
08:09<Dany0>bondau: last time I checked(~2 years ago) 2megs are good for 4 players
08:09<planetmaker>bondau: 2kbit / client and map downloads. iirc
08:09<Dany0>planetmaker: am I right?
08:10<Eddi|zuHause>but i seriously fail to see the point... you combine the disadvantages of pixel-pushing with the disadvantages of 3D-rendering, without any of the benefits...
08:11<Dany0>you know unlimited detail technology?
08:11<bondau>2kbit... aplay
08:11<bondau>is pretty nice
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>bondau: the initial map download may be up to 4MB for large maps
08:12<planetmaker>there speed matters
08:12<bondau>its on a 50mb/50mb connection
08:12<planetmaker>millibit? ;-)
08:12<Eddi|zuHause>bondau: usually the limit is the client's download
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>unless you have like 10 people joining simultaneously
08:13<planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: that'd not happen iirc. they're then queued
08:13<planetmaker>unless that changed
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>well... whatever
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08:20<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: hey
08:23<Celestar>michi_cc: hm... I'm also wondering how to find "neighbors" fast.
08:24<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: are you there?
08:25<Celestar>bondau: the kbits/client are independent of map size, the initial connect, of course not :)
08:30<bondau>im starting a sever, and a few mates of mine want to run a comp for the game at a lan party
08:30<bondau>in a teams of 4 style
08:30<bondau>or 8
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08:30<bondau>they think 8 might get a bit hectic
08:30<Dany0>I've never played OTTD co-op in my life :(
08:30<Dany0>always wanted to
08:31<@peter1138>Dany0, yes, it's bullshit
08:31<@peter1138>(unlimited detail)
08:33<Celestar>what is BS? coop? :P
08:33<@peter1138>i stated afterwards :S
08:33<Dany0>peter1138: not to you, and I know it's bullshit
08:33<Celestar>sorry. hugeass lag :P
08:34<bondau>so co-op isnt good?
08:34<Celestar>coop rocks
08:34<SpComb>coop is the only way to play
08:34<Dany0>!slap Eddi|zuHause
08:35<Celestar>except for the first 10 minutes when you wait for money to come in :P
08:35<planetmaker>Dany0: it usually helps much better to ask a question than to pester someone to "answer" with a "Yes, I'm here"
08:35<bondau>haha okay good, because another one of them wants to start an online ladder for it
08:35<Eddi|zuHause>i should get my special friends list, i think
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08:36<planetmaker>he :-P
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>"people who are on the wrong side of the von moltke scheme"
08:36*planetmaker also usually ignores information-less ping requests
08:37<planetmaker>err, what, Eddi|zuHause?
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>which clearly this is a prime example of
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08:38<Celestar>wtf is the von Moltke Scheme?
08:38<MINM>von moltke scheme?
08:39<Dany0>planetmaker: I asked the question already
08:39<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: do you know unlimited detail technology?
08:39<MINM>I googled, but got nothing meaningful.
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08:39<MINM>yes, Dany0
08:39<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: von moltke was a prussian general who divided his soldiers into 4 categories. intelligent/active, intelligent/lazy, stupid/lazy and stupid/active
08:39<MINM>most people call it 'analog'
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08:39<planetmaker>Dany0: that's also hardly a meaningful question
08:40<planetmaker>he... I never heart of that, Eddi|zuHause :-)
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>where intelligent/active would become great generals, intelligent/lazy good officers, stupid/lazy good foot soldiers, and stupid/active you should stay clear of, because they distract everybody else from doing real work
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08:41<MINM>lol, eddi
08:41<Celestar>I'm assuming the distribution was about 5%, 10%, 30%, 55% ?
08:41<MINM>I suppose you call stupid/active the wrong side?
08:42<planetmaker>lol indeed :-)
08:43<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: i don't have statistics, but about 1%, 10%, 70%, 19% would be my guess. depends on which group you look at, and where your "average" is
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>or 80%/9%, would still be bad enough
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>that would mean around 1 stupid/active person to distract 1 intelligent/lazy person from doing their work
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>meaning only 2% of people have the chance to bring civilization forward in any way
08:45<MINM>that's why you use the stupid lazy to keep away the stupid active
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't quite work that way...
08:46<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: I'd have guessed that'd be about 5% .. but ok (=
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: 83% of statistics are made up on the spot
08:47<MINM>eddi: that's why you use the encapsulating tactic.
08:47<MINM>surround stupid-active with enough stupid-lazy, and the stupid-lazy will absorb any idiot actions for ya.
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: stupid/lazy are the "don't care"s of that calculation (pun intended)
08:48<MINM>I know, that's exactly how you use them
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: the problem is that stupid/active people get promoted to higher positions before you realize that they really fall into that category
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: at which point no stupid/lazy people are in the way
08:50<Celestar>which book did he write that in?
08:50<MINM>that's why one should always promote to a harmless spot first
08:50<Celestar>there are no such spots.
08:50<Celestar>everyone can do damage.
08:51<Celestar>the question is only "how much"
08:51<MINM>The chief commander of the home guard can do less damage than the chief commander of the atlantic navy
08:52<Celestar>less damage. yes.
08:52<Celestar>but not "no damage"
08:52<Celestar>and I think the categorization of people works very well outside of the armed forces.
08:52<Celestar>look at large corporations.
08:52<Celestar>90% of the middle and upper management positions are filled with stupid/active people.
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's why it is such a great scheme, actually
08:53<Celestar>and the other 10% are basically busy cleaning up the mess that the 90% make.
08:53<Eddi|zuHause>if the HR departments are aware of it, it makes hiring processes much better focus on the good candidates
08:53<Celestar>where is in politics, 90% feels on the low side.
08:54<MINM>100% there
08:54<MINM>anyone smart/active knows there are better positions to get, and the smart/lazy know to steer well clear from politics
08:55<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: assuming that the HR are not made of mostly stupid people, which they are, so you are in kind of a vicious circle there.
08:55<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: that's the problem, yes.
08:55<Celestar>because HR people hate to employ someone who they feel is smarter.
08:56<MINM>yeah, no way
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08:56<MINM>I see it with my brother, who works somewhere on the higher lower echelons of a supermarket chain
08:57<MINM>he's got more knowledge of the law than the legal department of the company.
08:57<Celestar>you know. prime example last week. They wanted to move my workplace from the 4th to the 6th floor.
08:57<MINM>and he doesn't even have his master yet
08:57<Celestar>Needless to say it would be faster to haul the shit up there myself, but they hired a company.
08:57<Celestar>and I had to mark stuff that I want moved. every fucking cable and everything.
08:58<Celestar>when I came to my "new" workplace on Monday something was missing.
08:58<Celestar>Guess what?
08:58<MINM>I dunno
08:58<MINM>the desk?
08:58<Celestar>They forgot to move THE DESK. And apparently didn't have half a braincell to friggen notice.
08:58<MINM>couldn't you just tell the movers to jack off and help only if you want something heavy moved?
08:59<Celestar>they put the PC and monitor in front of the chair onto the floor.
08:59<Celestar>nah I wasn't there when it happened :P
08:59<MINM>well, actually, it's not the movers who are the morons here.
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>but that's more likely a stupid/lazy person at work
09:00<Celestar>so I'm not sure about the "active/lazy" scale, Eddi|zuHause but this is as stupid as it gets.
09:00<MINM>for all they know the desk would come later from another place.
09:00<MINM>the idiot occurrence here is that your management tells people to move your shit while you're not there
09:00<Celestar>well are are not allowed to move it ourselves.
09:01<MINM>seriously, people, who the fuck moves houses when you're on a vacation on the other side of the world?
09:01<Celestar>because, if we trip on the way from A to B, we might break our neck.
09:01<MINM>neither should one move desks while absent
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: the difference is that stupid/lazy people only just "not do" the work, while stupid/active people actually do "the wrong" kind of work. which is orders of magnitude more difficult to clean up
09:01<Celestar>but that's not the problem. The problem is that the Keyboard i was carrying whilst might be broken and, as such, is not insured.
09:03<Celestar>and while you can always hire another consultant, obtaining a replacement keyboard is a herculan task.
09:03<MINM>celestar: what about you suing your company?
09:03<MINM>I think that's what they're most afraid of
09:03<Celestar>MINM: it's not my company :P
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>that's bureaucracy at work for you
09:03<Celestar>MINM: I'm just "external"
09:04<Celestar>basically they paid me for sitting at a desk-less workplace :P
09:04<MINM>remind me to never ever get a 9-5 desk job
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>i'm more into 12-13 desk jobs
09:04<MINM>are you implying what I think you're implying? 0-o
09:04<Celestar>my company actually pretty much rocks.
09:05<Celestar>just some of the customers are .. weird :P
09:05<Dany0>planetmaker: I'm trying to explain eddi why is qubicle not a normal 3d editor and why it's so different from blender and so close to normal pixel-art
09:05<MINM>what kind of job do you have, then?
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: around here, people tend to rather have 7-15 jobs
09:05<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: so do you or do you not know Unlimited Detail Technology
09:05<Celestar>I'm a tech consultant. Coding, Testing, etc etc
09:06<Celestar>but the whole company is a group of nerds :D
09:06<Celestar>which is kinda fun
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: which is rather a bit early for my taste
09:06<MINM>I know, me too
09:06<Celestar>i.e. having done a lot of openttd coding was more important to the BOSS during the interview than my grad student marks :P
09:07<MINM>while getting up early sucks hairy bananas, I do know that my focus is MUCH better in the morning.
09:07<MINM>after lunchtime Im usually a write-off.
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: practical experience is always more important to people
09:07<MINM>it's either that or the graveyard shift
09:07<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: hello?
09:08<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, but we spent 3 hours (!) in the interview discussing openttd implementation details :P
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>ok... :)
09:08<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: can you finally answer please?
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09:11<MINM>Celestar: the best way to verify of somebody is competent during interview is to make 'em think up something on the spot
09:12<MINM>EG write a quick piece of code, or, like our boss did, discuss implementation issues of OTTD
09:14<Celestar>we had to write some code too
09:15<Celestar>my interview took 7 hours.
09:15<Korenn>a trusted reference makes things easier :)
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>with a lunch break?
09:15<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: yeah. BBQ break actually (=
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>that's a whole work day
09:18<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: hey!
09:18<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: I asked you a question!
09:18<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: AN HOUR AGO
09:18<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: could you mind, ANSWERING IT, probably? Thank you.
09:20<MINM>BBQ interview? chiillll
09:20<b_jonas>Celestar: seven hour? nice
09:20<MINM>do you happen to have any need for somebody like me in the company?
09:20<b_jonas>when was that?
09:20<+michi_cc>There's also the Peter principle to promotions. People are usually promoted when they do a good job, but not when they do a bad job. Result: The highest management level people reach is the level where they don't do a good job anymore (otherwise they would've been promoted higher). As people are rarely demoted, most positions are filled with unsuitable people.
09:20<Celestar>well minus the break
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: yes, that's another problem
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: but you can resolve that by promoting "sideways"
09:23<Celestar>you solve that by sending people to retirement :P
09:23<+michi_cc>Yes, but the damage is often already done as it will take some time to notice somebody really is unsuitable.
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>i.e. give them a position where they have less responsibility, but give them a higher wage, so it doesn't look like a demotion
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>best combined with a longer title :)
09:25<Dany0>can somebody please wake up Eddi|zuHause
09:25<b_jonas>longer title doesn't make nerds happy. higher wage might help though.
09:26<V453000>Dany0: I get the feeling that you are not cared about... just saying
09:28*Celestar wakes Eddi|zuHause on Dany0'S behalf :P
09:29<Eddi|zuHause>i told you my office hours :)
09:29-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
09:29<MINM>it's past 15, isnt it?
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09:30<V453000>it is past whatever. :P
09:31<@orudge>long time no see
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09:44*MINM patpats appe
09:51<Dany0>ok qubicle OpenTTD colour palette is done :)
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09:57<Celestar>orudge: how ya doing`
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10:07<@orudge>Celestar: pretty good
10:19<Celestar>I wonder whether converting Tile to a union would cost performance
10:21<b_jonas>depends on what it's a union of
10:21<Celestar>so is it true the Dutch Railway abolished loos?
10:21<Rubidium>Celestar: in some trains
10:22<Rubidium>but apparantly they've done it in Germany as well
10:22<b_jonas>Celestar: isn't that airplans doing that? making them payware at least
10:22<Celestar>Rubidium: well on suburban trains yes.
10:22<Celestar>b_jonas: only Ryanair.
10:22<Celestar>b_jonas: and that's not an airline
10:23<Celestar>and yeah, I consider the S-Bahn situtation unacceptable in Germany tbh.
10:23<Rubidium>Celestar: in the NL it's for non-intercities where most of the people are not more than 30 minutes on the train
10:23<Celestar>unless the train is delayed.
10:23<Rubidium>so that could be considered roughly the same as suburban trains
10:24<Celestar>what's so fucking hard about building toilets into trains ffs
10:24<Rubidium>and even then, only on the newer trains
10:24<Rubidium>Celestar: "it breaks the aesthetics of looking through the train from front to back"
10:24<Celestar>well PUT THEM ON THE SIDE
10:25<Rubidium>it's also the reason why the electronics are cooled with air from track level instead of the top of the train
10:25<Rubidium>i.e. why electronics are cooled with snow instead of cold air
10:25<b_jonas>oh, the first world problems we have
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10:26<Eddi|zuHause>that's what happens when uninformed people make design decisions
10:26<Rubidium>Celestar: but I see no real problems putting one at either end of the train next to the driver cab
10:27<Rubidium>unless that shits up the safety systems
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: but the drivers cab must have transparent back so you can see the track
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10:27<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: that's a nice feature.
10:27<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: yeah...
10:27<Rubidium>and then they have curtains to close
10:27<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: the BR403 and 406 have that. AND they have dunnies
10:27<Rubidium>but I doubt they can close them fast enough to not see someone all over the windscreen
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: but you can't look all the way through an ICE3!!
10:28<b_jonas>curtains? I don't think that works
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: it can be made milky-intransparent by some electronic feature
10:29<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: who cares?
10:29<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: I wish they'd bring back compartments.
10:30<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: I hate the fucking "Großraumwagen"
10:30<Celestar>and I don't see a reason why anyone could actually like them
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>never had any issues with that, honestly
10:30<Celestar>I hate them.
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10:30<Celestar>with a passion
10:31<Celestar>too many people.
10:31<Celestar>they make noises.
10:31<Eddi|zuHause>you shouldn't use them with an agoraphobia, probably :)
10:32<planetmaker>the compartments also suck as you constantly hit knees with the person whom you face
10:32<Celestar>I use them rarely, because most of the time one of 3 things happens
10:32<planetmaker>As such the "Großraum"-wagons are much better usable
10:32<Celestar>a) The price in unacceptable
10:32<Celestar>b) the schedule sucks
10:32<Celestar>c) The train is horribly slow (i.e. Munich-Hamburg or Munich-Berlin)
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>blame the person who put these damn mountains inbetween! :p
10:33<Celestar>The Japanese have mountains too
10:33<planetmaker>but they have dedicated high-speed tracks
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>maybe they manage the NBS Nürnberg-Erfurt by 2017
10:33<Celestar>planetmaker: so why don't we have them? because we suck?
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10:34<Rubidium>Celestar: in Japan those trains can go horribly slow as well
10:34<Celestar>Rubidium: of course they can.
10:34<planetmaker>Celestar: basically yes ;-)
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>the japanese didn't have a division for 40 years
10:34<Celestar>Rubidium: but the large cities are connected .
10:34<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: Munich and Hamburg were on the same side of the wall :P
10:34<Eddi|zuHause>which incidently cuts exactly through that problematic route
10:35<Dany0>guys I never understood one thing... can somebody explain me the nightly OpenTTD builds?
10:35<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: and Munich-Hamburg already has about 500km of "high-speed" rail in between and STILL takes about 5:45
10:35<b_jonas>Dany0: what about them?
10:35<Celestar>4 hours is easily doable
10:35<Rubidium>Celestar: is 2 million large? If so, then in Japan it isn't either
10:35<Dany0>well last time I checked
10:35<Celestar>WITHOUT dropping any intermediate stops
10:35<Dany0>everyone could submit one
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: yes, but the shortest historic (pre-1945) route was via Leipzig-Berlin
10:36<Dany0>at the time you were celebrating r10000
10:36<planetmaker>Dany0: at every time only developers had commit access
10:36<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: the modern high speed tracks couldn't really change that
10:36<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: in 1939, the High-speed train from Munich to Stuttgart took 2:30. today, it's 2:23
10:36<planetmaker>Dunno how it was at r10k. But they're automatically build by a compile farm
10:36<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: Berlin-Dresden was 1:42. Today it's 2:07.
10:37<Dany0>well the last time I checked
10:37<Rubidium>Celestar: of the 10 largest cities in Japan 3 are not connected to the Shinkansen
10:37<Dany0>the problem was that every nightly build was supposed to have some new experimental features
10:38<Dany0>and every nightly build was not sequentional
10:38<planetmaker>no. A nightly simply is to be the snapshot of trunk as of that night
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: Berlin-Dresden has an additional stop in Berlin-Südkreuz nowadays
10:38<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: we're comparing ICE against a steam engine?!
10:38<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: Berlin-Südkreuz costs AT MOST 5 minutes.
10:38<Dany0>I mean r28789 had experimental signaling, r28790 had support for ultra long trains
10:38<Dany0>for example
10:38<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: the steam train ran 160km/h on a regular basis
10:38<planetmaker> <-- Dany0
10:38<Dany0>but you wouldn't find out until you've downloaded it
10:38<Celestar>I thought it was even 175km/h.
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: top speed vs. planned speed
10:39<Dany0>this was few years ago
10:39<Celestar>Rubidium: Hamburg isn'T connected, Munich isn't connected, Cologne is hardly connected, Berlin is mediocrely connected ...
10:39<Rubidium>even between the two largest cities in Japan the fastest train has an average of 90 km/h
10:39<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: 175 = 160+10%
10:40<Celestar>Rubidium: the largest cities are Tokyo and Osaka :P
10:40<Dany0>I wanna see the cake!
10:40<Rubidium>Celestar: Tokyo and Yokohama
10:40<Celestar>Rubidium: well .. rofl :P
10:40<Celestar>that's 25km
10:40<Dany0>there it is
10:41<Dany0>wow that's how long I've been around?
10:41<Rubidium>wow, never seen that photo ;)
10:42<Celestar>the train from Toyko to Yokohama takes 18 minutes
10:42<Celestar>for 29 km
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>hey, in 18 minutes i'm not even at the next train station
10:43<Celestar>I am :P
10:43<Dany0>hey I remember it was promised in nightly builds that there will be multi-leve bridges
10:43<Rubidium>in 18 minutes I'm 2 stations further... but bike
10:43<Dany0>one step before we'd have the locomotion-like air tracks
10:44<Dany0>did it ever happen?
10:44<planetmaker>did you play and find out?
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>well, Halle-Nietleben could be doable in 18 minutes
10:44*Rubidium wonders who promised that to Dany0
10:44<Eddi|zuHause>by car
10:44<Dany0>planetmaker: I saw a screen, but I couldn't find the nightly build the post was talking about
10:44<Dany0>Rubidium: the forums
10:47<Dany0> < ORLY? Ever felt the pain
10:47<Dany0> < ORLY? Ever felt the pain of dealing with a retard?
10:47<Dany0>what f*ck just happened? 1. wasn't meant to this tab 2. double post?
10:48<planetmaker>I currently feel like doing so. yes
10:48<Dany0>planetmaker: said the guy who says 'cubicle'
10:49<Rubidium>what's wrong with cubicles?
10:49<Dany0>it's not cubicles
10:49<planetmaker>not again...
10:49<Dany0>there is no such thing as cubicle in this sense
10:49<TrueBrain>yeah; please not this again :(
10:49<Dany0>it's called voxel, and it's not even a cube!
10:50<planetmaker>I guess I'll follow eddi's example for noise control
10:50<Rubidium> <- so these are called voxels... that's something new I learned today
10:50<Dany0>Rubidium: what's your problem?
10:51<Dany0>TrueBrain: do you remember multi-leveled bridges?
10:51<Dany0>higher then 1
10:51-!-Celestar [~dax@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:51<Dany0>and more height levels?
10:51<planetmaker>random highlights for random people. Today for free... :S
10:52<planetmaker>oh. on random topics, of course
10:52<TrueBrain>planetmaker: normally I have to apy for it :P
10:52-!-Brianetta [] has quit [Quit: Tschüß]
10:52<Dany0>what are you talking about now?
10:52<TrueBrain>planetmaker: pay :P
10:52<TrueBrain>be creative with letters :)
10:52*Rubidium is happy to not work in a voxel. Would feel too constrained I guess, and probably not very good for communication
10:53<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I rather talk with vocals :D
10:53<planetmaker>not my creative day today... Much boring work was to be done...
10:53<Dany0>Rubidium: if you'd work in a voxel you'd be smaller then an atom
10:53<planetmaker>TrueBrain: acapella?
10:53<Dany0>this would need compensations, like removing your brain... whole body?
10:53<TrueBrain>planetmaker: for example :)
10:54<Rubidium>but you just said it's not cubicles but voxels
10:54<Rubidium>for some reason I'm getting confused here
10:56<Dany0>Rubidium: I did not
10:57<Rubidium>16:49 < Rubidium> what's wrong with cubicles?
10:57<Rubidium>16:49 < Dany0> it's not cubicles
10:57<Rubidium>16:49 < Dany0> it's called voxel, and it's not even a cube!
10:57<Rubidium>sorry, but I can only deduce from that, that what I thought to be cubicles are to be called voxels
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10:58<Dany0>no some... idiots thought the voxels in qubicle are called cubicles
10:58<Dany0>so no one remembers the multi-level bridges?
10:58<TrueBrain>oeh, I am promoted to everyone :D:D
10:59<TrueBrain>[16:51] <Dany0> TrueBrain: do you remember multi-leveled bridges?
10:59<TrueBrain>[16:58] <Dany0> so no one remembers the multi-level bridges?
10:59<TrueBrain>so I am everyone :D I feel to proud :)
10:59<Rubidium>TrueBrain: everyone agrees ;)
11:00<Dany0>TrueBrain: everyone can read it, also "I feel to proud"
11:02*Rubidium would be very interested in the reasoning the developers had to remove multi-leveled bridges from trunk (assuming they ever were in trunk)
11:02<planetmaker>TrueBrain: we all knew you're our omni-present almighty god(dess) of ... <enter something here>
11:02<TrueBrain>planetmaker: :D
11:02*planetmaker hides quickly
11:02<Dany0>who are the main developers?
11:02<Dany0>who commit suicide
11:02<Dany0>I mean to the trunk
11:02<+glx>Rubidium: I know why :)
11:03<Dany0>glx: tell me!
11:03<planetmaker>you read the changelog Dany0
11:03<Dany0>planetmaker: no?
11:03<planetmaker>it's not feeding time for illiterate and lazy
11:03<+glx>it never been in trunk
11:04<Dany0>planetmaker: yeah where is the changelog then?
11:04<Dany0>planetmaker: non-stable
11:04<Rubidium>in any case, I usually see DorpsGek or CIA-6 in the commit messages on IRC
11:04<TrueBrain>so they are to blame? :D
11:05<TrueBrain>always knew CIA had a hidden agenda
11:06<@DorpsGek>leave me alone
11:06<Dany0>DorpsGek: NO! >=(
11:06<@DorpsGek>but I don't want to be alone
11:07<Dany0>is anyone beside DorpsGek? or it's just a bot with pre-recorded messages?
11:07<@DorpsGek>did you just call me a bot? Rude ...
11:08<Dany0>DorpsGek: you're a bot and have no life
11:08<Dany0>DorpsGek: now, complete the turing test
11:08<@peter1138>if your voxels are represented by a 2d representation of a cube on a screen, is it so wrong to call it a cube?
11:08<Dany0>peter1138: yes
11:08-!-Dany0 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Warning 1. Don't insult me.]
11:08-!-Dany0 [] has joined #openttd
11:08<Dany0>that's an insult? or even a reason to kick?
11:08<Dany0>DorpsGek: that was uncalled for
11:15<@peter1138>maybe you should try voxelizing a flat sprite?>
11:18<Dany0>peter1138: are you kidding me?
11:18<@peter1138>in your video you took a sloped sprite and turn it into a flat voxel object
11:18<Dany0>peter1138: Blood's 3d objects were made of entirel voxelized flat sprites
11:18<Dany0>yeah I know
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11:19<Dany0>it's iso so you can't voxelize that easily
11:19<Dany0>peter1138: and I've shown you voxelized sprites
11:19<@peter1138>i thought you said it was easier?
11:19<Dany0>what was easier
11:20<Dany0>I didn't say that
11:20<Dany0>voxels are better then polygons yes
11:20<Dany0>they're not "easier"
11:20<Dany0>and they can't be harder
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11:20<@peter1138>but a polygon can represent a slope
11:20<Dany0>it's a data/rendering/rasterization technique
11:20<Dany0>so does a voxel
11:20<@peter1138>voxels (on a fixed grid) can't easily do that
11:20<Dany0>voxelized sprite
11:21<@peter1138>what i said "a flat sprite" i mean one of our tiles that is flat
11:22<@peter1138>animated gifs of a voxel object don't impress me
11:22<Eddi|zuHause># anotherone bites the dust
11:23<TrueBrain># dum dum dum
11:27<Prof_Frink>peter1138 drives a voxel vectra.
11:33<Dany0>you know what I could do
11:33<Dany0>I could voxelize 1942
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11:36<planetmaker>"could voxelize <whatever game not OpenTTD> is like totally off-topic here
11:36<TrueBrain>planetmaker: voxels are offtopic here
11:37<planetmaker>yeah.... I've not seen them made on-topic. Just buzz-talk about *could*
11:38<TrueBrain>even if voxel-engines would be mainstream, it would be useless for OpenTTD ... like any other random OpenTTD3D talk we had/willhave :P
11:39<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: Add "| No Voxels |" to the topic?
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11:39<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: it would make a very long topic tbh
11:40<@Yexo>| Web service partially offline <- is that still true?
11:41<TrueBrain>haha, no
11:41-!-snack2 [] has quit []
11:41<TrueBrain>who added it, and why did he not remove it?
11:41*TrueBrain looks at planetmaker :)
11:41<Prof_Frink>Or just add it to Dorpy, like the openttdcoop reminder.
11:41<planetmaker>I really feel innocent :-)
11:41<TrueBrain>you want me to consult backlogs? :P
11:42<TrueBrain>no, I seriously don't know who did :P
11:42<planetmaker>nah, could spoil my feeling of innocence
11:42-!-mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by DorpsGek
11:42<Prof_Frink>Forunately I only just connected.
11:42-!-planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
11:42<Prof_Frink>-!- Topic set by planetmaker [] [Fri Sep 30 14:34:12 2011]
11:43<TrueBrain>tnx planetmaker :P
11:43<TrueBrain>I was too lazy, I am sorry :D
11:43<@planetmaker>cmd+t did the trick ;-). k. +@op ;-)
11:43-!-mode/#openttd [-o planetmaker] by DorpsGek
11:44<+glx>I think DorpsGek has a command for that too
11:44<planetmaker>it has
11:44<TrueBrain>last time planetmaker tried to battle it, and he failed horribly :P
11:44<planetmaker>but more effort
11:44<TrueBrain>forcing him to do a +o for it :D
11:44<planetmaker>hm... why did dorpsget -o me?
11:45-!-mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by DorpsGek
11:45<TrueBrain>I am sure I had nothing to do with it
11:45-!-mode/#openttd [-o planetmaker] by DorpsGek
11:45*TrueBrain hugs planetmaker
11:45-!-mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by DorpsGek
11:45*planetmaker pats DorpsGek
11:46-!-snack2 [] has joined #openttd
11:46<+glx>grr my script is broken for topic commands
11:47<Dany0>TrueBrain: no voxels aren't off the topic here
11:47<TrueBrain>indeed; they are
11:48*planetmaker wonders whether I should get my 2nd round of popcorn
11:48<TrueBrain>I am getting hungry, hmm
11:48<@planetmaker>yes... but not for popcorn
11:48<Dany0>no they're not
11:48<Dany0>if you think so you have no idea what voxels are
11:49<Dany0>so you guys
11:49<Dany0>have any idea if an ARM build is coming up?
11:49<Dany0>you know, windows 8
11:49<Dany0>it's about the time to start, seriously
11:49<TrueBrain>I am strongly start to think Dany0 is a bot ...
11:49<TrueBrain>can we start a vote on that?
11:50<Dany0>TrueBrain: what is the **** clue that gives you this non-sense thought? huh?
11:50<@Yexo>Dany0: if I were you I'd back off a bit
11:50<@Yexo>you've been made fun of more than enough for the day, and you don't even seem to know it
11:51<@Yexo>by continuining you're only making a fool of yourself
11:51<Dany0>Yexo: well the mods should punish the people that are making fun of me
11:52<Prof_Frink>The people making fun of you *are* the ops.
11:52-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only | test (glx)
11:52<TrueBrain>and mostly he is just making fun of himself, so that gets a bit tricky too ... ;)
11:52-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
11:52<TrueBrain>glx: passed :)
11:52<Prof_Frink>planetmaker: Get me some while you're there
11:52<+glx>command fixed :)
11:53<@planetmaker>gladly, here you go, Prof_Frink
11:53*MINM pokes the town crazy
11:54<Prof_Frink>Cheers Slarti
11:54<Dany0>how about stop making fun of me and take my words ******* seriously?
11:54<@Yexo>a better attitude would help
11:54<@DorpsGek>pur pur
11:54<Dany0>I'm ***** trying to help you somehow, so far you're the most ***** unwelcome community I've been to for months
11:54<@Yexo>@kick Dany0 bye bye
11:55<@Belugas>yo yo and a bottle of rum
11:55<@DorpsGek>Yexo: I don't recognize you.
11:55-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only | long test (glx)
11:55<TrueBrain>Yexo: authenticate :P
11:55-!-DorpsGek changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
11:55<@planetmaker>@op Yexo
11:55<Dany0>once again, why?
11:55<TrueBrain>planetmaker: he is opped
11:55<@planetmaker>yeah... I need tea.
11:55<TrueBrain>just DorpsGek refuses to copy those rights .. not sure why not, feels a bit mute
11:55<@planetmaker>Yexo: you could authenticate via hostmask to dorpsgek
11:56<@Yexo>yes, I should
11:56<+glx>just give it a wildcard mask :)
11:56<TrueBrain>planetmaker: I still haven't discovered how that works :P
11:56<@peter1138>Dany0, so you want to use qubicle to draw sprites. well, here goes. there's nothing stopping you. enjoy.
11:56<@planetmaker>@help authenticate
11:56<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: Error: There is no command "authenticate".
11:56<@planetmaker>@help identify
11:56<@DorpsGek>planetmaker: (identify <name> <password>) -- Identifies the user as <name>. This command (and all other commands that include a password) must be sent to the bot privately, not in a channel.
11:56<TrueBrain>planetmaker: don't spam please :)
11:56<MINM>this all would have been solved a lot quicker with a irc network that actually has a proper op system installed >.<
11:57<MINM>planetmaker: pm?
11:57<Dany0>peter1138: excuse me?
11:57<Prof_Frink> ?
11:57<@planetmaker>MINM: how doesn't this have?
11:57<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: please no :P
11:57<@peter1138>Dany0, you brought up qubicle as a way of making sprites. if you don't want to make sprites, why bring it up?
11:57<@Yexo>Dany0: you need to think about what you actually want to achieve. Using qubicles is nice, but whwat does it offer to OpenTTD?
11:57<MINM>have you ever ben as far to go do look more like?
11:57<Prof_Frink>or maybe?
11:58<Dany0>Yexo: it's not Qubicles fucking damn this!
11:58<Dany0>are you all just this ignorant or simply dumb?
11:58<TrueBrain>Dany0: once again I warn you: dial it down, don't talk like this
11:58<@Belugas>fucking? he said fucking??
11:58<Dany0>do you even listen to me?
11:58<@Belugas>no, we read you
11:58<__ln__>would it be too old-fashioned for an op to kick directly, without delegating it to a bot?
11:58<@peter1138>Dany0, have you tried temper management?
11:58<@Yexo>Dany0: I'm not drawing any sprites at all, and I don't really care how they're drawn
11:58<TrueBrain>stop calling people names, stop being arogant .. we have been over this Dany0
11:59<@Belugas>hey, i want some popcorn too!
11:59<__ln__>Dany0: how old are you?
11:59<@Yexo>voxels, qubicles, whatever, taht was not my point. The point was: whatever you want to introduce, what does it offer to OpenTTD?
11:59<MINM>__ln__: I think the old adage "why simple when it can be done hard" applies here
11:59<Prof_Frink>Belugas: planetmaker's got a bucketful
12:00<@planetmaker>yup. Here's also a bucket for Belugas :-)
12:00<Dany0>Yexo: it's not some kind of new technology
12:00<@Yexo>that is again besides the point
12:00<Dany0>Yexo: I am not trying to sell anything, and it's not some magic stuff like unlimited detail technology proclaims
12:00<TrueBrain>Dany0: what Yexo is trying to ask you, how would voxels help OpenTTD in any way
12:01<TrueBrain>you are aware OpenTTD is not a 3D game, right?
12:01<Dany0>you can not call it qubicles, you can not call it whatever
12:01<Dany0>it's voxels, the end
12:01<@planetmaker>Then why do frigging behave so? And why do you want to sell it to everyone whether s/he draws sprites or not? And to everyone whether s/he wants to listent to or not?
12:01<@Yexo>ok, so it's voxels
12:01<Prof_Frink>Call it Derek.
12:01<@Yexo>How do voxels help OpenTTD in any way?
12:01<Dany0>thank god
12:01<TrueBrain>you keep coming here talking about voxels like it is _the_ magic word to fix all shit, but ... how does it help OpenTTD?
12:02<@planetmaker>which is... what I asked like 6 hours ago and got no answer to ;-)
12:02<Dany0>the whole point is that for 32bpp sprites you're using blender
12:02<TrueBrain>says who?
12:02<@Yexo>some people are, others are not
12:02<Dany0>planetmaker: yes you got you were just too ignorant to read it
12:02<Dany0>blender sucks, it's hard to learn and long to render
12:02<TrueBrain>how artist do their work, they do their work
12:02<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: You get to use Mirage Tanks to fool the local authorities into thinking you've planted trees.
12:03<@planetmaker>I only saw "better than blender" which is hardly an argument
12:03<TrueBrain>OpenTTD has nothing to do with any of that
12:03<Dany0>qubicle is easy to learn and instatn to render
12:03<+glx>TrueBrain: let's talk about XML then :)
12:03<@Yexo>but apparently the people using it already know blender
12:03<@Yexo>otherwise they wouldn't be able to make any sprites
12:03<Dany0>it's easier to create sprites because you don't have to do the same work 19 times
12:03<Dany0>Yexo: ok
12:03<@Yexo>and if you want to push voxels for new artists you have the wrong audience here
12:04<Dany0>Yexo: again
12:04<@Yexo>the majority of the people here are either coding or playing openttd, not drawing graphics
12:04<Dany0>Yexo: you didn't get it
12:04<Dany0>Yexo: there is no pushing voxels for new artists
12:04<Dany0>there is no such thing
12:04<TrueBrain>Dany0: if 5 developers don't get you, you might be the one that don't get it?
12:04<@Yexo>than why do you keep bringing it up?
12:04<MINM>..can't tell if just stupid or troll.
12:04<MINM>in case of doubt, troll!
12:05<Prof_Frink>MINM: Tropid.
12:05<Dany0>you're talking oranges and I don't know, badgers
12:05<MINM>what, Prof_Frink?
12:05<Mazur>If a Troll is here, the bridge must be open.
12:05<Dany0>Yexo: again
12:05<Dany0>Yexo: there is no bringing it up
12:05<TrueBrain>Dany0: lets make it more clear to you: we, as OpenTTD, do not care how 32bpp sprites are made. Some peopl euse Blender, some use paint, some might use voxel engines (once they are created, if ever)
12:05<TrueBrain>so, why keep bringing up voxels in this channel and proclaiming it is the all-fixing? How does OpenTTD benefit?
12:06<Dany0>TrueBrain: there is no using voxel engines
12:06<Dany0>TrueBrain: making sprites from blueprints is easier
12:06<@peter1138>so what?
12:06<TrueBrain>again, how does OpenTTD benefit?
12:06<Eddi|zuHause><Belugas> hey, i want some popcorn too! <-- sorry, popcorn ran out two days ago
12:06<TrueBrain>you keep skipping that part
12:07<Mazur>Making sprites with a tool I know and can use is easiest.
12:07<Mazur>Also, I like hte tiool to also exist.
12:07<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: wrong. You're also just ignorant and don't read. I'm quite sure ;-)
12:07<Dany0>peter1138: so making sprites from blueprints is easier
12:07<Dany0>TrueBrain: already said that
12:07<@planetmaker>see :-)
12:07<TrueBrain>(a fun fact btw, most voxel engines atm use blender, which generates a 3D model, which is converted to a voxel engine, because it is too hard to make voxel models from scratch :P)
12:07<TrueBrain>Dany0: so you keep saying, but I never read the answer
12:07<@peter1138>Dany0, great. go ahead and make sprites from blueprints then
12:08<Dany0>TrueBrain: this is not true, and how the hell did you come up with this
12:08<Dany0>TrueBrain: "it's easier make sprites" get it?
12:08<Dany0>it's not for everyone
12:08*Prof_Frink makes a model of a blender using vauxhalls
12:08<TrueBrain>Dany0: clearly you have no clue who you are talking too; that is okay, but I am telling you: OpenTTD does not benefit from voxels. If you want people to use voxels (in what-ever way) go talk to people who are interested
12:08<@Yexo>Dany0: "we, as openttd team, do not make sprites", get it?
12:09<Dany0>so why do you even discuss this if it's not of your interest?
12:09<TrueBrain>because someone keeps bringing it up over and over and over
12:09<Prof_Frink>... we don't.
12:09<TrueBrain>dunno who :)
12:10<@planetmaker>which is why I suggested to post on this topic better in the graphics section of the forum. Which I already linked you to hours ago
12:10<Dany0>I'm talking to people that want to make sprites easier or they don't like pixel art or they're bad at it or they wish they could make sprites using ms paint like tool but in 3d
12:10<@planetmaker>as there *might* be some interested audience if it really can help producing sprites
12:10<@Yexo>Dany0: those people are not here
12:10*TrueBrain looks in every corner of #openttd
12:10<Dany0>planetmaker: you what?
12:10<Dany0>Yexo: and you tell me this NOW?
12:11<Dany0>planetmaker: ?
12:11<@Yexo><Yexo> the majority of the people here are either coding or playing openttd, not drawing graphics <- I already did so before
12:11<Terkhen>I'm quite certain you have been told to post at the NewGRF development subforum a few times already
12:11<TrueBrain>he has been told here too a few times; but as long as he understands it now :)
12:11<Prof_Frink>Yexo: You missed "or just fishing for trolls".
12:11<@planetmaker>»» 13:57:29 < planetmaker> <-- probably here
12:11<Dany0>planetmaker: there's already a topic on the graphics section already
12:12<Dany0>planetmaker: I'm just waiting for a qubicle update so that I can render openttd-valid sprite
12:12<Dany0>Yexo: you said majority
12:12<Dany0>Yexo: I'm obviously talking to minority
12:12<+glx>other are bots and idlers
12:12<@Yexo>look, there are 109 people in this channel currently. I can hardly guarantee that none of them is drawing sprites
12:12<Dany0>and since there are ~5-7 guys answering me most of the time on what 50 people channel I thought I was talking to the minority
12:12<Dany0>see, 109 people
12:13<Dany0>Yexo: see I was counting on that
12:13<Dany0>so anyone not related to this, out!
12:13<Dany0>phew... much better
12:13<@Yexo>in #openttd.artists is everyone you need to talk to
12:14<+glx>oh there's a dedicated chan ?
12:14<Dany0>Yexo: now this... this you tell me now?
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>glx: that better be empty :p
12:14<Dany0>it is...
12:15<Prof_Frink>Yexo: Or maybe #openttd.vauxhalls
12:15-!-welshdragon [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
12:15<TrueBrain>right; out of popcorn, time to make some real food :)
12:16<Dany0>Prof_Frink: there is no vauxhalls, you clearly don't make the splendor of your name
12:16<Prof_Frink>Hmm, Dany0 seems to have confused me with someone that makes sense.
12:17<Dany0>Prof_Frink: so did you
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12:28<Xaroth>TrueBrain: stop hurting your desk!
12:29<@planetmaker>Xaroth: but it really does hurt. I even feel the pain here it radiates
12:29<Xaroth>my desk is sobbing from all the desk violence it has to witness..
12:30<Prof_Frink>If you're going to headdesk, do it properly. Run into a wall.
12:30<Xaroth>then it's headwall, not headdesk
12:31<MINM>no, really?
12:31<Prof_Frink>No, more entirebodywall
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>i have another answer to a question nobody ever asked:
12:33<Xaroth>Eddi|zuHause: heh
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's a standard how to represent checklists in XML
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>checklists as in:
12:34<Eddi|zuHause>[ ] cleaned dishes
12:35<Dany0>>> glad not to live in the USA
12:35<Xaroth>Eddi|zuHause: at least it's XML-based, so it can't be wrong!
12:35<Dany0>xml sucks
12:36<Dany0>reading it takes way too long
12:36*Xaroth thinks Dany0 doesn't know how to use /me ..
12:36-!-sla_ro|master [~slaco@] has joined #openttd
12:36<TrueBrain>Xaroth: stop hurting me!
12:36<Dany0>Xaroth: if I'd use /me I'd say is glad...
12:37<Xaroth>then why use >> .. it adds nothing to your sentence but bloat..
12:37<Xaroth>and the whole point of XML is that it remains humanly readable..
12:37*TrueBrain ...
12:37-!-welshdragon [] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>XML is about as useful as Voxels :p
12:38<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: he, don't comapre those two! Like oranges with peaches!
12:39-!-welshdragon [] has joined #openttd
12:40<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: all these are things i could never get as a child?
12:40<Dany0>Eddi|zuHause: about as fuck you too
12:40<Prof_Frink>Extensible Voxel Markup Language...
12:40<Dany0>Prof_Frink: and you know what? you too
12:40<Xaroth>Dany0: no need to be rude
12:40<TrueBrain>Dany0: final warning. Stop calling names.
12:41<@Yexo>you're in a good mood today TrueBrain
12:41<@Yexo>I didn't expect another warning :P
12:41<TrueBrain>Yexo: yeah, it surprises me too :)
12:41<Dany0>you treat me this way? I treat you this way
12:41<TrueBrain>@kban Dany0 fair enough
12:41-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
12:41-!-Dany0 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [fair enough]
12:41<@planetmaker> @kban ...
12:41<Xaroth>@ban Dany0!*@* ..
12:41<TrueBrain>I couldn't even be bothered adding a timestamp ...
12:42<@Yexo>did he ever grasp that TrueBrain was actually an op here?
12:42<TrueBrain>Yexo: nope
12:42<TrueBrain>if he can't be arshed to look up who developers of OpenTTD are, I can't be arshed to tell him
12:42-!-Neon [] has joined #openttd
12:42<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: Are you drunk?
12:42<TrueBrain>Prof_Frink: rarely; why?
12:42<@planetmaker>I doubt it
12:43<MINM>drunk with power, perhaps
12:43<TrueBrain>[18:42] <Dany0> why ban?
12:43<Prof_Frink>You're shlurling your schpeech
12:43<Xaroth>that would imply he drinks :o
12:43<TrueBrain>how to reply to that ...
12:43<Xaroth>TrueBrain: quote him.
12:43<MINM>TrueBrain: /ignore *dany0* all
12:43<Prof_Frink>^ This.
12:43-!-Mucht [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:43<@Yexo>TrueBrain: "you treat me this way? I treat you this way"
12:43<Xaroth>or what MINM said.
12:43<TrueBrain>all good suggestions :D
12:44-!-Mucht [] has joined #openttd
12:44<Prof_Frink>Unless you've got the stab-in-the-face-over-IP plugin
12:44<TrueBrain>ordered it, but it hasn't come in yet :P
12:44<Eddi|zuHause>does that have an RFC yet?
12:44<TrueBrain>ugh ... only so much I can take of the: USE VOXELS! .. there isn't even software yet to draw in voxel space ..
12:44<TrueBrain>well, we have Minecraft :P
12:46<Prof_Frink>In Europe, Voxels are called Opels. Opal Fruits are now called Starburst. Starburst was what Moya did in Farscape. My brain is a weird place. Plaice is a fish.
12:46<Xaroth>you're confused with Vauxhalls, Prof_Frink :P
12:46<TrueBrain>ah, he was upset Prof_Frink and Eddi|zuHause made fun of voxels
12:46<TrueBrain>seems to make him think it is a card-blanc to start being rude
12:46<Prof_Frink>Xaroth: Same difference.
12:47<Eddi|zuHause>(i was actually being semi-serious)
12:47<Prof_Frink>(I wasn't)
12:51<TrueBrain>I am not allowed to paste an url here, as it would be rude, but pastebins are public these days ... don't know what that is about ...
12:54<Xaroth>can't find it :P
12:54<z-MaTRiX>santa-clause is here
12:54<TrueBrain>you just check your PMs silly mister Xaroth :P
12:56<Prof_Frink>What, David Cameron's got involved?
12:56<TrueBrain>who is David Cameron? :)
12:56<TrueBrain>and what part of him got involved? (the 's)
12:57<TrueBrain>or did you mean to type gut? :P
12:57<TrueBrain>:D:D:D :)
12:57<Prof_Frink>You don't want my guts to get involved.
12:57<TrueBrain>no, David Cameron's! :P
12:58<Prof_Frink>Ah, sanity. Never was that keen on it.
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13:01<TrueBrain>@kban *!5ab27afe@*
13:01<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Error: *!5ab27afe@* is not in #openttd.
13:01<TrueBrain>stupid DorpsGek
13:01-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:01-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!5ab27afe@*] by TrueBrain
13:01<@TrueBrain>@kick Dany0 a ban is still a ban
13:01-!-Dany0 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [a ban is still a ban]
13:02-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
13:02<TrueBrain>there we go
13:02<TrueBrain>mibbit as multiple access points these days
13:02<z-MaTRiX>what did he do?
13:02<TrueBrain>next he connects with mIRC I guess :P
13:02<TrueBrain>being abusive verbally
13:03<z-MaTRiX>because not got answer?
13:03<@planetmaker>didn't get the answer he liked
13:03<TrueBrain>did he asked anything?
13:03-!-TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
13:03<@planetmaker>yes. whether eddi knows some obscure stuff
13:04<TrueBrain>owh, and something about bridges
13:04<TrueBrain>no clue what it was about
13:04<z-MaTRiX>i remember once i read something about the game perspective angle
13:05<z-MaTRiX>but not reading back ;<
13:05<TrueBrain>wise choice ;)
13:07<z-MaTRiX>why dont peoply usually use the chat function in mulktiplayer?
13:07<z-MaTRiX>seems like if they dont even know about it
13:09<Xaroth>TrueBrain: banning on nickname probably works best against low-IQ people :P
13:09<TrueBrain>Xaroth: on IP works better ;)
13:09<Xaroth>granted mibbit doesn't do magics :P
13:11<z-MaTRiX>and realnameban for 1337 lamz0r bots
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13:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: do we really need the cets.gfx.dep run?
13:33<@planetmaker>we don't need that, if you care to not re-build on png file changes
13:33-!-welshdragon [] has joined #openttd
13:34<@planetmaker>i.e. it gives the the dep on all image files
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>especially: must that really be a separate run
13:34<@planetmaker>technically it's needed
13:35<@planetmaker>it fails to work properly if you make it not a separate run
13:35<@planetmaker>in some cases
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>it's taking really long, and i think it does many things needlessly twice
13:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: removing that basically would mean to skip using the makefile at all and use a brainless build-script which builds everything unconditionally
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and in 99% of all cases it suffices to depend on "find -iname '*.png'"
13:37<@planetmaker>do you write 99% correct code or prefer 100% correct?
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but what speaks against stripping the dependencies out of the "real" nml compilation, instead of calling nml twice?
13:38<@planetmaker>it's calling nml in dep check mode
13:38<@planetmaker>like gcc -M -MT
13:38<Eddi|zuHause>yes. but that takes needlessly long
13:39<@planetmaker>as said: you can basically kill dep check and use a brainless build script...
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>that's not what i'm saying
13:39<@planetmaker>it's effectively the result of what you advocate
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>no, you miss my point
13:40<@planetmaker>I don't think so
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm saying instead of "(nmlc dep-check) && (nmlc compile)" call "nmlc (dep-check & compile)"
13:40<@planetmaker>and I say: that can fail
13:41<Eddi|zuHause>and i ask: how?
13:42<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: a dep check is practically useless if it makes compiling twice as long
13:45<TrueBrain>hmm, you remind me I should add all those extra tools we have in /extra to the compilefarm ....
13:45<TrueBrain>(don't know why, but you two reminded me of that :P)
13:46<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: it fails as soon as the png itself is generated
13:46<@planetmaker>at that stage you need to know which pngs need generation prior to actually building the grf
13:46<appe>what does && mean in code terminology?
13:47<@planetmaker>firs do A && if A then do B
13:47<@planetmaker>(in terms of bash syntax in this context)
13:47<Eddi|zuHause>appe: A && B means "run A, and if A terminates successfully, run B"
13:48<TrueBrain>so it means 'and' ;)
13:48<appe>ah, i see.
13:48<appe>and, with a cool touch.
13:48<Eddi|zuHause>appe: not to confuse with "A & B" which means "run A and B in parallel"
13:48<TrueBrain>any sane language tries to evaluate left first, if true, then right :)
13:48<appe>i see
13:49<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: is that valid (bash-wise?)
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain: yes
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13:49<TrueBrain>A& forks A, but having a 'B' behind it
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>& works like a separator, same as ;
13:49<TrueBrain>A &; B I can understand :)
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>A &; B is a syntax error
13:49<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: kewl :D
13:49<Eddi|zuHause>cannot have empty statements
13:49<TrueBrain>learn something new every day :D
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14:02<MINM>truebrain: any sane /western/ language, yes
14:03<TrueBrain>I was talking about imperitive languages :D
14:04<TrueBrain>3rd time is the charm
14:06<MINM>I got the point.
14:06<MINM>good effort, though :P
14:06<TrueBrain>I hate my own typing sometimes :)
14:07<MINM>my typing is allright, I suppose, i just have some odd corners in my mind which still think 'definitely' is spelled with an a, for example :P
14:08<@planetmaker>yeah... like spelling of alright ;-)
14:09<__ln__>MINM: 'alright' is spelled with one l.
14:10<__ln__>oh, pm noticed that already
14:12<MINM>I blame that one on my not being a native speaker :P
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14:13<__ln__>that's a very bad excuse, because native speakers usually spell worse than non-natives.
14:13<TrueBrain>it is a nice way of proving your point I guess ;)
14:15<@planetmaker>gotta love it: "setup found that your system has 2GB of memory. The programme needs 128MB of memory. The game might run slow or instable. Do you want to continue?"
14:15<TrueBrain>huh? LolZ!
14:15<Terkhen>heh, which game?
14:15<@planetmaker>HOOM4 in wine
14:16<@planetmaker>err.. Heroes of Might and Magic
14:16<@planetmaker>HOMM ;-)
14:16<__ln__>it only becomes very lolz if it refuses to install because of that.
14:16<@planetmaker>it allows to continue install. Fortunately
14:16<TrueBrain>and your computer only has 2GB of memory?!
14:16<Terkhen>well, games do strange stuff in wine :P
14:16<TrueBrain>poor planetmaker
14:17<@planetmaker>yeah :-(
14:17<TrueBrain>can you start Firefox at all?
14:17<@planetmaker>it was quite a lot 4 years ago for a laptop
14:17<Terkhen>probably, as long as he does not use more than one tab
14:17<@planetmaker>that's not really an issue, tbh
14:18<@planetmaker>but yes, now I'd love more :-)
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14:23<Prof_Frink>"Warning you have a 1 colour display; Lemmings requires a 256 colour display"
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14:49<@planetmaker>hmpf... I told macports to upgrade wine. And not to upgrade virtually everything, including X and what-not-all
14:50<@planetmaker>bison, flex, perl, libiconv, libpng, openssl...
14:50<@planetmaker>makes one wonder
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14:55<TrueBrain>wine all depends on it :D
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14:58-!-mode/#openttd [+o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
14:58-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!] by TrueBrain
14:58-!-mode/#openttd [-b *!5ab27afe@*] by TrueBrain
14:58-!-mode/#openttd [-o TrueBrain] by DorpsGek
14:58<TrueBrain>tnx DorpsGek
15:00<TrueBrain>be happy I am in a good mood; otherwise I am sure DorpsGek would have kicked you with the mssage: +o :P
15:00<TrueBrain>well, tbh, I am just lazy ;)
15:00<TrueBrain>:D:D :)
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15:35<MINM>...This is slightly stupid.
15:35<MINM>also, that must have happened at quite a massive speed D:
15:36<Terkhen>hi andythenorth
15:36<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, my thought as welll
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>that does not look healthy at all
15:49<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Am I seeing right that we're out of articulated IDs now?
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: yup
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>all gone
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>so if we need any more, we need some magic shuffling, or we need the new articulated callback
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>the magic shuffling is a little limited, because we can't adjust capacity by the "front".
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>as _someone_ decided to make var 61 not available during callbacks :p
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15:53<andythenorth>you only need <128 for trailing parts, right?
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>and we are freshly out of those
15:54<andythenorth>so you only need one ID for that?
15:54<andythenorth>one trailing vehicle, and a ton of horrible conditional magic
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>as i said, that would require var61 access during at least cb36
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>*or* access to the "articulated front" as "related vehicle"
15:55<andythenorth>why do you need that?
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>length, capacity, loading speed, ...
15:56<andythenorth>what's 82 reference for an articulated train?
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>always the front engine of the train
15:57<andythenorth>that's no help then :(
15:57<andythenorth>patch trunk :P
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>hm... is the tt-forum's favicon broken or is that just me?
15:59<andythenorth>and var 60 is insufficient :|
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16:02<Eddi|zuHause>var 63: access of variables of the first articulated part (self if not articulated).
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>hm, "self" is probably a bad idea
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>nah, should be fine
16:03<+michi_cc>That really should be though, even 61 feels very hacky already :)
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16:05<+michi_cc>And of course but that also should be frosch's grfv8 mq instead
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>then hurry up!! :)
16:07<andythenorth>no patience :P
16:08<+michi_cc>Pester frosch for GRFv8, maybe he has a patch for the related objects already as well :p
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16:15<andythenorth>smoke for ships is *clearly• a higher priority :P
16:17<Eddi|zuHause> <- "die spinnen die briten"
16:18*andythenorth has to visit google translate?
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>no, just ignore that part :)
16:19<andythenorth>looks like Newcastle to me, at a guess
16:20<supermop_>nice set of points and Xs
16:23<Terkhen>good night
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the phrase (roughly translated): "they are silly, these <people>" is a running gag from asterix
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16:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that sounds familiar ;)
16:24<andythenorth>Obelix says it?
16:24<Elukka>oh yay this site is back up
16:24<Elukka>one of the more impressive model railroads i've seen
16:25<andythenorth>my model train days are way behind me
16:26<andythenorth>between pixels and lego...
16:26<andythenorth>there's no cmd-z on real trains
16:26<andythenorth>and it's a lot of faff
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16:26<andythenorth>lego has a very similar 'undo' feature to most software
16:30<andythenorth>those tracks are not on the grid
16:31<Prof_Frink>andythenorth: But doesn't replicate the satisfying nature of putting a Hornby engine on an otherwise Tri-Ang system.
16:31*andythenorth had mostly Lima anyway
16:31<andythenorth>Lego has much more spectacular crashes
16:32<V453000>Elukka: wonderful, your doing?
16:32<Elukka>haha no
16:32<andythenorth>oh god
16:32<andythenorth>everyone is going to stop coding ttd and play with their trains :(
16:32<Elukka>i linked the main page a few minutes back :P
16:32<andythenorth>this is bad
16:33<Elukka>handmade trackwork...
16:33<Elukka>tolerances are tiny
16:34<Elukka>"Perhaps Harold's crowning achievement was his scratch built Norfolk & Western RR Y6B. Harold labored over this locomotive for years. Everything, except the wheels, was made by Harold. We chided him for not painting it but he still had to add some more parts to it, he would say."
16:34<Eddi|zuHause>Elukka: those welders did a crappy job there...
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>(yes, i know that these are actually isolating sections)
16:39<Elukka>how appropriate that my media player decides to play 'Spike in a Rail'
16:45<appe>what an aewsome train.
16:46<V453000>andythenorth: too expensive hobby :P
16:46<andythenorth>pixels are cheaper
16:46<V453000>yes, model trains
16:47<andythenorth>you can buy a very nice mac every year compared to the cost of doing trains properly
16:47<V453000>pixels B good :)
16:47<V453000>hehe yes
16:47<andythenorth>lego trains are rinsingly expensive
16:48<andythenorth>and I never take them apart to build different ones :(
16:48<andythenorth>I just buy more :P
16:48<andythenorth>this is where my money goes
16:49<supermop_>one could at a point just start building things in real life -
16:49<supermop_>furniture, houses, gardens,
16:50<andythenorth>from Lego?
16:51<Elukka>surely buying a very nice mac every year is much more expensive
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16:51<andythenorth>I don't buy one every year :)
16:52<andythenorth>fortunately the tech improvements are rather stuck for laptops
16:52<andythenorth>so there's little reason to buy new ones
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16:52<MINM>buy me one! ^.^
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>a mac one year, a macbook next year, an ipod next year, an iphone next year, an ipad next year, and by the next year, the mac is outdated again, starting the cycle all over again
16:53<andythenorth>did I mention a spent all my money on Lego?
16:53<andythenorth>the iphone sucks
16:53<MINM>you have pics?
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16:54<MINM>I had a friend who had this really cool lego train set, and then I had three nephews who frequently pooled their lego trains
16:54<MINM>it was glorious
16:54<MINM>and I was very jealous :(
16:54<andythenorth>I don't have any pictures of 'all of it'
16:54<andythenorth>most of it is in boxes due to the baby
16:55<MINM>what do you think of the new flexible tracks?
16:55<andythenorth>but a lot less boring than trying to make fixed shapes fit together
16:57<V453000>andythenorth: jesus :D
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16:59<MINM>I still want to build a full-suspension tracked vehicle with lego some time. :P
16:59<Elukka>Eddi|zuHause: you forgot the small preplanned incremental improvements or features they removed from the original so they can sell it a few months later at full price again
17:01<andythenorth>like FW
17:01<MINM>possibly with a fully functioning drivetrain :D
17:01<andythenorth>or actually, you know, making phone calls
17:01<__ln__>well.. still.. can someone point me to a piece of pc hardware that is at least as small as a Mac Mini, and has at least the same specs, and is cheaper?
17:02<andythenorth>almost certainly
17:02<andythenorth>the mac mini is now insanely expensive
17:02<andythenorth>when it was about £325 it was a bargain
17:02<andythenorth>but apple are no longer interested in selling computers that are cheaper than an ipad :)
17:03<MINM>well, who can blame them
17:03<MINM>though personally Id price the pad down, not the mini up >.<
17:03<andythenorth>none of this gets smoke fixed for ships :P
17:03<andythenorth>what do I need to do?
17:03<andythenorth>like, learn c++ or something?
17:04<MINM>selfbuild, andy?
17:04<andythenorth>mod of lego set
17:04<andythenorth>I tend to be good at copying + extending other people's ideas
17:05<andythenorth>e.g. FIRS :P
17:05<Elukka>personally i'm a fan of the desktop macs you can customize on their website and see how they charge humongous amounts of money for the exact same hardware that goes into a PC
17:05<MINM>yeah, I always have prided myself over selfbuilds
17:06<andythenorth>it's because you don't charge your time
17:06<MINM>well, I was a bit younger then
17:06<MINM>sadly I didn't have a lot of lego
17:06<MINM>so I was forced to be creative.
17:06<MINM>I did have (old school) knex, though, that stuff was glorious.
17:07<MINM>looks less pretty, but you could easily build functioning vehicles with little (and cheap) parts
17:07<andythenorth>it started with this:
17:07<andythenorth>and got...bigger
17:08<MINM>I built vehicles a foot wide up till four or five long, (granted, Im counting trailers too)
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17:09<MINM>with fully functioning double steering front axles and all
17:10<MINM>the only disadvantage of the stuff was that the joints are bendy, so beyond two feet or so it gets flexy
17:10<MINM>yeah, about that scale.
17:11<MINM>mine didn't have fancy smooth decks, though
17:11<MINM>all wireframe
17:13<MINM>Do want
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17:13<andythenorth>probably expensive now - no longer available new
17:13<andythenorth>it's a good toy
17:14<andythenorth>this is also good:
17:14<MINM>meh, I wouldn't pay that much for something that Id cannibalize for parts after a couple of months
17:14<andythenorth>the B-model for the excavator is really effective
17:15<MINM>this one?
17:15<Elukka>that isn't any cheaper than model trains :P
17:15<andythenorth>yes that one
17:15<andythenorth>it's way *not* cheaper than model trains :P
17:16<MINM>well, model trains mechanization is slightly simpler than making machines like that move :D
17:16<Elukka>the valve gear on steam locomotive seems like it'd be a bit hard, even if it just moves with the wheels
17:20<MINM>well, I meant more like the electric components and all
17:23*andythenorth -> bed
17:23<andythenorth>good night
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17:23<MINM>my babysitting kids have
17:23<MINM>this set
17:24<MINM>oh, he's gone >.<
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