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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-27

---Logopened Thu Oct 27 00:00:20 2011
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01:51<@planetmaker>moin
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02:56<Celestar>\o
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04:15<Celestar>note to self: irssi is really unhappy if you change the font size of the terminal window.
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04:19<@peter1138>uh, irssi shouldn't care?
04:21<__ln__>press Strg-L
04:24<@peter1138>Beef Stroganoff
04:41<Sacro>mmm
04:41<Sacro>tasty
04:41<Sacro>with suet pudding?
04:55<Terkhen>good morning
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05:18<Celestar>peter1138: yeah, but somehow gnome-terminal fscks it up
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05:29<Mazur>Which direction does the light originate in openttd?
05:29<Celestar>there is no "light" really.
05:29<@planetmaker>Mazur: 4:30
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05:30<Celestar>but yeah, the sprites look like somewhere what planetmaker said >P
05:30<Mazur>So, from the bottom-right?
05:30<@peter1138>all objects emit their own light :>
05:32<Mazur>I ask for when I draw sprites, which sides are best lighted and which ones are in the shadow.
05:32<@planetmaker>Mazur: yes.
05:32<Mazur>So all the funny answers were not really helping.
05:33<Mazur>And then most from above or from the side? In other words, would the top be the lighter of hte two or the side, when seen 3/4 on.
05:34<Mazur>I'm guessing either equally or the top a bit lighter.
05:37<Mazur>Oh well, anyway, thanks, planetmaker.
05:39<@planetmaker>Mazur: well, whereever the sun usually is... so ... somewhater from top at 4:30 or so
05:40<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: the problem is, it's not really consistent throughout openttd itself
05:45<Mazur>Well, I might as well have a go at spriting the way the consensus is going to.
05:46<Eddi|zuHause>Mazur: have you checked the various grf wikis/tutorials=
05:46<Pinkbeast>I don't think of most OTTD sprites as having a definite sun position. It's not like I can see the backside to know if it's lighter or darker...
05:47<Celestar>:)
05:47<Pinkbeast>... and I certainly don't expect that faces will change brightness as they move from a 45- to a 90-degree angle to some hypothetical sun facing. That would look like the object itself changing colour.
05:48-!-blotek [~blotek@eqh222.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd
05:51<Celestar>where is my openttd-opengl thingy ... :P
05:51<@planetmaker>Pinkbeast: you do expect the shading of vehicles to change when it turns. And they usually do
05:52<@planetmaker>it only shows really when not done ;-)
05:54<Mazur>That's my idea, planetmaker. Subtle, but nonetheless there. You don;t notice it, because it's expected.
05:55<Celestar>lol I still have it
05:55<Celestar>http://www.fvfischer.de/ottdgl2.png
05:56<MINM>is that what I think it is?
05:57<Celestar>yeah
05:58<Celestar>it required a Geforce 9800GTX to work properlz
05:58<MINM>sweet.
05:58<MINM>...less sweet
05:58<Celestar>and there was nothing on the map.
05:58<Celestar>just .. the map
05:59<@peter1138>heh
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>you have the wrong keyboard again
05:59<@peter1138>but it's polygons! polygons suck!
05:59<Eddi|zuHause>i meant kezboard :p
05:59<Celestar>lol
05:59<Celestar>reallz_
05:59<V453000>OpenTTD 3D? :d
05:59<Celestar>peter1138: lol
05:59<TrueBrain>cubicals!
05:59*MINM whacks peter1138 on the head
05:59<Celestar>peter1138: what else do you wanna make things of :P
06:00<Celestar>I'm wondering where the fucking code is for that image :D
06:01<Celestar>I know it was like 350 lines.
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06:09<Eddi|zuHause>that's quite a lot...
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06:10<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: well 300 was about to initialize the opengl engine or so
06:10<MINM>is every tile a separate surface?
06:11<Celestar>MINM: two actually.
06:11<@planetmaker>two?
06:11<MINM>0-o
06:11<Celestar>yeah. two triangles
06:12<@planetmaker>oh, in that screenshot
06:12<Celestar>da
06:13<MINM>I may be a total nub with code, but I would have built a map out of a single surface
06:13<Celestar>then you have a flat surface :P
06:15<Celestar>I do not have the code here :(
06:15<MINM>I meant as you have in blender, and then just sculpt the shapes
06:16<Celestar>at some point, you need to return to basic shapes.
06:19<Celestar>can't give opengl an arbitrary shape and say "draw this" :P
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>pipe it through blender! :p
06:20<Celestar>lol
06:21<MINM>that's probably not very beneficial to performance :/
06:21<Celestar>it depends.
06:22<Celestar>on the smallest zoom level, you could easily get around 250fps.
06:22<Celestar>but if you zoom out to see half the map, things get ugly
06:22<Celestar>you cannot just render half the map.
06:22<Mazur>Hell, yes, why don't you pipe it through a ray-tracer afterwards, to get that shading there isn't.
06:22<Celestar>a ray-tracer .. right ... :P
06:23<Mazur>Then you could get a moving sun...
06:23<Mazur>:-P
06:23<Celestar>er ..
06:23<Celestar>that's easy.
06:23<Celestar>a light was there.
06:23<Celestar>it was just omnidirectional
06:25<Celestar>otherwise you couldn't see a thing :P
06:34<Celestar>when you load a savegame that is missing newgrfs, are those downloaded ?
06:36<@planetmaker>no
06:36<@planetmaker>you could click on "check online content" though and then download them manually from that very point
06:36<Celestar>aha.
06:37<@planetmaker>no un-asked phoning home ;-)
06:37<Celestar>just some things are not available :P
06:38<@planetmaker>that might well be
06:39<Terkhen>:)
06:39<Celestar>whats the latest status of DBSetXL anyway?
06:42<@planetmaker>same as 6 years ago
06:43<@planetmaker>with the addition of "will never be on bananas" ;-)
06:43<Celestar>lol
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: announced release date 11. november
06:44<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: lol of what?
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>of DBSetXL 0.9
06:44<Celestar>woot?
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>i only believe that when it's there :p
06:45<Celestar>is there a thread somewhere on the forums?
06:45<Eddi|zuHause>http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=1284
06:45<Celestar>thanks
06:47<Eddi|zuHause>more specifically: http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=1284&pid=75463#pid75463
06:48<Celestar>wtf is FIRS
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth's industry set
06:49<MINM>http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/attachment.php?aid=4162
06:49<MINM>do want
06:49<Eddi|zuHause>you really did miss a lot :)
06:50-!-Nite [5472b1fc@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
06:50<Nite>Hi!
06:50<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: http://www.ttdpatch.de/download.html ?
06:50<MINM>sadly, is still the future T.T
06:50<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: i've been outta the loop for basically 2-3 years?
06:51<MINM>Ive got marico, but that's a screenshot of an as of yet unreleased newgrf, eddi
06:51<Nite>i sometimes forget what the numbers mean when you use query on "houses"
06:51<Nite>"passengers: 6/8" means?
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>MINM: as with pretty much all of MB's screenshots
06:51<MINM>at least, that's what my limited understanding from german tells me from this thread
06:51<MINM>http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/showthread.php?tid=5430&page=4
06:51<Nite>(i browsed the wiki, but nothing there)
06:51<Celestar>Nite: the "acceptance"
06:51<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: the numbers of all houses must add up to at least 8/8
06:52<Celestar>Nite: you need 8/8 in the catchment of the station for the thing to be accepted.
06:52<Nite>ok but it does say nothing about how many pax/mail etc produced?
06:52<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: no, it doesn't
06:53<Nite>ic
06:54<Nite>i still do not understand why there are two numbers, if "8/8" means "8" houses needed
06:54<Celestar>erm.
06:54<Celestar>fractions?
06:54<Celestar>it's n/8ths
06:54-!-vorca [~vorca@p57BD6A3E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd
06:54<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: you can't expect people to understand 3rd grade maths...
06:55<Celestar>do new music sets "override" each other or add new songs to the playlist?
06:55<vorca>is this the right channel for questions about compiling the ottd source?
06:56<Nite>so 6/8 means you need 0,75 houses?
06:56<Nite>i dont get it
06:56<Celestar>vorca: go ahead
06:56<Nite>i know the second number means how many buildings are needd for acceptance
06:57<Nite>why is there a first number?
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>Nite: the first number says "this house counts like 6 of those 8 houses"
06:57<@planetmaker>Nite: no. It means it supplies 6/8 = 0.75 of acceptance. 8/8 = 1.0 acceptance is needed so that the station accepts that cargo
06:57<Celestar>Nite: you are aware of what a fraction is?
06:58<vorca>i have win7 with vs2010, after including windosSdk07 and directx(plattfrom sdk) and ottd essentials, i get the compiler cant find "cstdio" file.
06:58<Nite>thx planetmaker that is actually an explanation
06:58<vorca>is there something i missed to include or some wrong settings from the project file?
06:59<@Yexo>cstdio is one of the most basic headers every compiler should provide
06:59<@Yexo>if it's missing you really messed up your vs2010 installation
06:59<vorca>yes, thats why iam asking
06:59<Celestar>yeah. sounds like a missing configuration or a fucked installation.
06:59<@Yexo>or your project settings, dunno
06:59<Nite>... so small house 2/8 + a large 6/8 would grant acceptance for example
06:59<Celestar>aze
07:00<@planetmaker>wrong keyboard, Celestar :-P
07:00<vorca>i have some trouble with different win/directx sdks, so maybe its lost somewere in include paths
07:00<@planetmaker>Nite: yes.
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: maybe he meant the (former) license plate sign of Anhalt-Zerbst? :)
07:01<@planetmaker>Which is exactly interesting when the total of houses in the catchment area is just about the 1.0 margin. One gets replaced and acceptance might drop below 1.0 and you might have a problem. Temporarily at least
07:01<@planetmaker>hehe @ Eddi|zuHause
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>they made some strange rearrangements recently, so that is now merged into Anhalt-Bitterfeld (ABI) (which doesn't really make a lot of sense, as Bitterfeld never actually was in Anhalt)
07:03<Nite>as i can see its always "8" "points" needed
07:10<@planetmaker>Is in ABI-land the local transport organized by NASA? ;-)
07:10<@planetmaker>http://nasa.de/ :-P
07:11<@planetmaker>They should really make more of this name ;-)
07:12<Celestar>well how do I activate the other music files
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: i don't really get there often, that's the other side of the river...
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: in the game settings?
07:13<@planetmaker>:-)
07:13<@planetmaker>Celestar: game options -> Music set?
07:13<@planetmaker>or in the juke box, if it's just the other songs
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>"im anhaltinischen Bäderdreieck konnte der geübte Reisende sogar Bad Leuna, Bad Buna und den Luftkurort Bitterfeld am Geruch unterscheiden ..."
07:16<@planetmaker>No doubt about that
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>if the wind was in the right direction, we could actually smell Buna from our flat...
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>but the strongest smell i can remember is when we passed with the train through Böhlen (south of Leipzig)
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>(of course that was usually balanced by having a look at the electrified narrow-gauge coal transportation network)
07:21<Celestar>Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker thanks >(
07:22<Celestar>hm.
07:22<Celestar>would be fun if you could use all them :)
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>the total number of titles is kinda hardcoded, i believe
07:23<@planetmaker>yes. It's 31(?) per music set. In any case 3*n + 1
07:23<Celestar>heh
07:23<Celestar>....
07:23<@planetmaker>and iirc n=10
07:23<@planetmaker>you can have less, though
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>fewer, actually
07:24<Celestar>maybe I should change that first :P
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>you can have less milk, but fewer cookies.
07:24<Celestar>ffs.
07:25<Celestar>wtb [proper midi shit]
07:25<Celestar>the piano sounds like a rusty trumpet.
07:25<Celestar>the violin sounds like a rusty trumpet.
07:25<Celestar>the fluet sounds like a rusty trumpet.
07:26<Celestar>only the trumpet doesn't sound like a rusty trumpet.
07:26<@planetmaker>loool :-)
07:27<Eddi|zuHause>electronic trumpets can never sound like real trumpets, it's mathematically impossible
07:28<Celestar>but they can come a BIT closer than this ..... which more reminds me of a faulty human digestive system.
07:28<Eddi|zuHause>get a better soundfont then :)
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07:28<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: how is it mathematically impossible?
07:29<@peter1138>i had a nice trumpet vsti
07:29<@peter1138>fairly convincing
07:29<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: there's some difference between electronic halftones (=log_2(1/12)) and "natural" halftones
07:30<@planetmaker>ehm... that's not a limitation of "electronic" music. It "just" needs proper tuning there, too
07:30<@planetmaker>going by the pure math separation of halftones of course will be different
07:31<Celestar>planetmaker: that assumes the soundfont knows what key it is just in :P
07:31<@planetmaker>like one could record the single notes of a trumpet and then compose music from that :-)
07:31<@planetmaker>Celestar: yes...
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the other problem is when you create the tone by overlaying sinus-waves, you cannot mix all necessary waves in the proper way
07:31<Celestar>the proble is, MIDI is ALWAYS out of tone.
07:31<Celestar>tune*
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: usual synthesizers can only make like 4 sinus waves
07:32<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: how not if you have the range of ~20 ... 20k available?
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>i mean simultaneously
07:32<@planetmaker>4 sines certainly is MUCH too little, yes
07:32<@planetmaker>yes, sure
07:32<Celestar>otoh.
07:32<@peter1138>MIDI is ALWAYS out of tone < what?
07:32<@planetmaker>but... every better wave generator allows arbitrary wave generation...
07:33<Celestar>peter1138: The human ear tends to compress frequencies.
07:33<Celestar>peter1138: very low frequencies are increased, very high frequencies are compressed.
07:33<Celestar>peter1138: that's why you cannot "tune" a piano with a tuning device.
07:33<@peter1138>MIDI specifies notes, not frequencies
07:33<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: and then real trumpets have bends and bruises that "spoil" the 'pure sinus' waves
07:33<Celestar>yeah.
07:34<@peter1138>it's up to the synth how to translate note to frequency
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07:34<@peter1138>that's not a property of MIDI
07:34<@peter1138>(MIDI does support detuning of course)
07:34<Celestar>peter1138: yeah. but all MIDI implementations an octave is EXACTLY 1:2
07:34<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: you can de-compose any sound in pure sinus waves
07:34<@peter1138>well... you haven't played with the synths i've played with
07:34<@planetmaker>*sine
07:35<@peter1138>any good piano tuner knows that an octave should be slightly off 2:1
07:35<@planetmaker>:-)
07:35<@peter1138>thus, any good synth should also do similar
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: but when you have "partial" sinus waves, that don't last over the full time of the tone, you get too many to model correctly
07:35<Celestar>peter1138: they do not.
07:35<@peter1138>depends what its synthesizing
07:35<@peter1138>Celestar, not all do, but not all don't
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>there is no such thing as a "perfect" model
07:36<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause: as said, that's only a limitation of cheap stuff
07:36<@peter1138>reasons why i dislike the scott-joplin music set for openttd:
07:36<Noldo>how does the sampling work in human ear?
07:36<@peter1138>it's pitch perfect, it's velocity perfect, it's timing perfect.
07:36<@peter1138>it's perfect.
07:36<@peter1138>it's ugly.
07:36<@planetmaker>Noldo: much more complicated than easily explained here ;-)
07:37<Celestar>peter1138: I'm just listening into it.
07:37<Celestar>Noldo: it's ... difficult ...
07:37<Celestar>Noldo: well BASICALLY it is some kind of FFT. but then there's the brain :D
07:37<@peter1138>the velocity & timing being perfect is more of an issue than pitch, mind you
07:37<Noldo>:-)
07:37<Celestar>peter1138: it makes me wanna vomit
07:38<@peter1138>whereas when i'm controlling midi with my keyboard, it's definitely not velocity & timing perfect
07:39<Celestar>one would hope so
07:39<Celestar>but the OpenMSX isn't bad.
07:39<@peter1138>all the editors do quantizing o_O
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>never listened to either
07:40<@peter1138>openmsx isn't bad indeed
07:40<@peter1138>probably because it's not just one instrument
07:40<@planetmaker>Noldo: we once had a colloquium talk on the "physics of hearing". It was a great talk. But allegedly only scratching the surface.
07:40<@planetmaker>Google tells me there are whole lecture (series) about this topic alone
07:40<@peter1138>the scott joplin set does stupid stuff like changing the global volume instead of adjusting velocity
07:40<@peter1138>that's not how it's supposed to happen :S
07:41<@planetmaker>OpenMSX certainly has good and bad pieces... as there's a lot of different artists involved
07:42<Celestar>aze
07:42<@planetmaker>peter1138: if you can and want to compose and perform... one certainly might find a spot in that project ;-)
07:43<@peter1138>no, i can't
07:43<@planetmaker>no midi output?
07:43<@peter1138>i can't compose!
07:44<Noldo>just slam your on the keyboard
07:44<@peter1138>and the stuff i do play would sound like crap on a standard soundfont synth
07:45<vorca>i think the best is i reinstall my vs2010 version.
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07:45<vorca>sometimes i have some strange errors, so maybe it helps
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07:53<Nite>cya
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07:54*peter1138 idly ponders high-res 8bpp sprites
07:54<@peter1138>probably not worth bothering with, heh
07:55<Eddi|zuHause>i'd like a high-res sprite in the purchase menu details
07:56<Eddi|zuHause>(not in the list, would make that too large, only the details)
07:58<@peter1138>woo, 8bpp-ez!
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07:58<MINM>you know what would be pretty smooth?
07:58<MINM>if in the details there's a washed out sprite of the vehicle in the background
08:00<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: there's no real reason why ez should be limited to 32bpp
08:02<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: there is a difference to allowing ez for 8bpp by zooming the sprites automatically and by allowing grfs to provide zoomed-in sprites
08:03<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: grfv8 could provide means for different zoom and different bitwidth sprites
08:13<Celestar>what is ez?
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>extra-zoom
08:14<Celestar>ah
08:14<Celestar>in or out? :P
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>in :)
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>out was possible once, but has been reduced by one level for reasons i can't remember
08:15<@peter1138>http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez4.png < 8bpp-ez
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08:16<@Yexo>commit, commit, commit :p
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, break those pesky 32bpp-ez patches :p
08:17<@peter1138>heh
08:17<@Yexo>the one I know of is already broken in multiple ways
08:17<@peter1138>so's this :p
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08:22<Celestar>\o
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08:30<Celestar>oh man
08:31<Celestar>DEAR FACILITY MANAGEMENT. If I call and I tell you "the loo is clogged" and you don't give a fuck, it's fine. If I call you and I tell you "the loo tank is leaking" and you don't give a fuck, it's file. But when I tell you "the loo is clogged and the tank is leaking" YOU BETTER START GIVING A FUCK....
08:32<@planetmaker>:-D
08:32<@planetmaker>I hear you're having fun :-P
08:33<Celestar>because now we have yellowish goo on the floor :P
08:33<@planetmaker>please spare me the details...
08:33<Celestar>:x
08:33<@planetmaker>is it still save to give you a hug? Or would I smell then (too)?
08:33<Celestar>nah
08:34-!-pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-035-161.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd
08:34<Celestar>you know this customer ... is the king of workarounds.
08:34<__ln__>please state the nature of the medical emergency
08:34<Celestar>one day I arrived in pouring rain. There was some water in the foyer.
08:34<Celestar>I called facility management "There's water on the floor, someone might trip"
08:34<Celestar>5 minutes later two guys arrived.
08:35<@planetmaker>and they put up signs "Beware: wet floor!" ?
08:35<@planetmaker>sounds familiar
08:35<Celestar>precisely.
08:35<@planetmaker>precisely that happens here, too...
08:35<Celestar>but we also add some yellow-black tape around the aera.
08:36<Celestar>so we're ahead :P
08:36<@planetmaker>hehe
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08:38<Celestar>this phone-control-software is fun, too
08:39<Celestar>you can tell the phone to make a call for example and shit.
08:39<Celestar>fun thing is, it doesn't controls *SOME* phone that is assiciated to your windows user name
08:40<Celestar>if you go to a completely different office and log in, you can tell the phone in the other office to call someone :P
08:40<@planetmaker>"nice"
08:41<Celestar>also, you can tell that phone to call your current phone :P
08:41<Celestar>so .. you can listen into your actual office without being there P
08:41<Celestar>not sure that's even legal :D
08:43<@planetmaker>call as in without ringing the bell?
08:43<@planetmaker>That surely is illegal
08:44<@planetmaker>even your boss must not do that with anyone
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08:47<MINM>Celestar: I should still get around to connecting my PC to the voip telephone connection we have at home
08:47<MINM>and buying a mike
08:48<Celestar>planetmaker: well.
08:48<Celestar>planetmaker: I'm "external employee" so .. er I don't give a fuck :P
08:49<@planetmaker>Celestar, you give shit about privacy because you're an external employee?
08:49<@planetmaker>Sounds kinda.... wrong
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08:55<Celestar>planetmaker: well I can't do more than point it out.
08:55<Celestar>planetmaker: which I did.
08:56<Celestar>if the own employees do not care ... *shrug*
08:57<@planetmaker>Celestar, it's something which is a violation of your constitutional rights. In principle criminal investigators are interested in this kind of stuff
08:58<@planetmaker>Something which might be worth pointing out ;-)
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08:58<Celestar>planetmaker: yeah
09:03<@Yexo>planetmaker: it's only a violation of rights if it actually happens. Having the option is (as far as I know) still not illegal
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09:04<Celestar>no it's not.
09:05<Celestar>otherwise it would be illegal to sell microphones
09:05<@planetmaker>the mere presence might not be.
09:05<@planetmaker>Celestar, that's a difference. A microphone on its own doesn't allow remote surveilance
09:06<@planetmaker>Only in conjunction with logging or remote operation
09:06<Celestar>yeah. theoretically every IP phone allows surveillance.
09:07<@planetmaker>And it's in any case criminal if done w/o the knowledge of the employees. And only allowed in some situations like analysis of customer calls
09:07<Celestar>log in to the phone (telnet, ssh) and make a call to somewhere.
09:08<@planetmaker>well. Just get a Federal trojan and remote control it by means of that ;-)
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09:09<@planetmaker>though they probably require a windows OS :-P
09:09<@peter1138>hmm
09:09<@planetmaker>which I don't expect to find in many phones.
09:14<Celestar>welll
09:14<Celestar>now that Nokia managed to mostly fold :P
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09:16<Celestar>I clearly need a better soundfont
09:16<Celestar>... how does one load soundfonts in linux :P
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>no idea
09:20<@peter1138>are you using timidity?
09:21<@peter1138>(try the fluidsynth patch, heh)
09:21<Celestar>hm.
09:21<Celestar>-mextmidi :P
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09:24<Celestar>fun. fluidsynth is 150MB installation
09:26<@peter1138>yeah, you can use fluidsynth perfectly well with -mextmidi
09:30<Celestar>how would I do so_
09:32<@peter1138>fluidsynth -a alsa -m alsa_seq /usr/share/sounds/sf2/FluidR3_GM.sf2
09:33<@peter1138>then
09:33<@peter1138>pmidi -l
09:33<@peter1138>get the port for fluid synth
09:33<@Belugas>hello
09:33<@peter1138>export ALSA_OUTPUT_PORTS=port
09:33<@peter1138>run openttd with -mextmidi:cmd=pmidi
09:33<@peter1138>a little more involved than the patch, i guess
09:34<Celestar>heh
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09:35<@peter1138>i should really finish off extmidi
09:35<@planetmaker>peter1138, wouldn't it make then sense to add the fluidsynth sounddriver?
09:35<@peter1138>so that you can supply parameters too :p
09:36<@peter1138>planetmaker, i don't like the hardcoded paths, but then there's the lack of being able to probe for them too :S
09:37<@peter1138>-mfluid:sf=/usr/share/sounds/sf2/FluidR3_GM.sf2 ? :p
09:38<Celestar>hm.
09:38<Celestar>no sound :P
09:38<Celestar> Port Client name Port name
09:38<Celestar> 14:0 Midi Through Midi Through Port-0
09:38<Celestar>128:0 FLUID Synth (7440) Synth input port (7440:0)
09:38<Celestar>which port does it want? 128 or 7440 ?
09:38<@peter1138>127:0
09:38<@peter1138>er
09:38<@peter1138>128:0
09:39<Celestar>LMAO
09:39<Celestar>I typed 127 in my export statement :D
09:39<@peter1138>hehe
09:40<@planetmaker>peter1138, yes, that's what stopped me with that patch, too
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09:40<@planetmaker>But I didn't find any viable hints on where to find / store / assume soundfonts and whether one can assume any sane default at all
09:40<Celestar>hm.
09:41<@peter1138>i don't think you can assume
09:41<Celestar>doesn't sound much better....
09:41<Celestar>maybe I should try my external sound card at some point.
09:41<@planetmaker>thus probably the only option is to make it a cfg setting
09:41<@planetmaker>which the patch author did not supply ;-)
09:41<@peter1138>your external sound card has a hardware synth?
09:41<@peter1138>planetmaker, imho, cfg settings are wrong for drivers
09:42<@peter1138>it's already possible to set the driver's parameters
09:42<Celestar>peter1138: yeah.
09:42<Celestar>some terratec monster.
09:42<@peter1138>i.e. musicdriver = "extmidi:cmd=pmidi"
09:46<Celestar>FF7 had a pretty decent software midi sequencer
09:46<Celestar>by Yamaha
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>we need soundfontconfig! :p
09:48<@planetmaker>peter1138, well, but a sound font is - as far as I saw it - a setting similar to a (type) font. Hence the similarity in names, too. Availability can vary by the user's install and preferences.
09:49<@planetmaker>But of course we can't supply any sound font along with openttd. It'd merely sixfold the download size...
09:49<@planetmaker>at least
09:49<@planetmaker>and we store font config in the cfg, too
09:49<@planetmaker>As we do music, graphics and sfx config
09:50<@planetmaker>and blitter
09:50<@peter1138>true
09:50<@planetmaker>it doesn't mean we should store the actual driver. Just the sound font
09:50<@peter1138>you can't specify a soundfont for all music drivers though
09:51<@peter1138>for instance, if i use an OPL3 synth, a soundfont is useless
09:51<@planetmaker>yep. But then it's graciously ignored
09:51<@planetmaker>as are my newgrf presets which I often don't use
09:51<@planetmaker>openttd is very liberal (luckily) what it allows
09:51<@planetmaker>It only adds to the cfg. But doesn't remove
09:57<@peter1138>well
09:57<@peter1138>fluidsynth is the only one that needs to be supplied with a soundfont
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09:58<@planetmaker>yes, sure. But still IMHO it wouldn't hurt to store the user's preference for a sound font in the cfg
09:58<@planetmaker>those who don't bother don't need to care. It won't hurt them
09:58<@planetmaker>but it also doesn't answer the question for reasonable defaults
09:59<@planetmaker>it just makes it somewhat easier to use as I'd not have to specify a SF each time when using that driver
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10:00<@peter1138>how about a generic alternative?
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10:00<@peter1138>[driver]
10:00<@peter1138>param = value
10:01<@peter1138>[sdl]
10:01<@peter1138>hz = 44100
10:01<@peter1138>etc
10:01<@planetmaker>sounds good
10:01<@peter1138>[fluidsynth]
10:01<@peter1138>soundfont = /usr/share/sounds/sf2/...
10:02<@peter1138>maybe music_fluidsynth, so that sound_sdl and video_sdl don't conflict :)
10:02<@Yexo>how would you specify which of the sound drivers is used?
10:02<@planetmaker>same as now?
10:02<@peter1138>using sounddriver = as normal
10:03<@peter1138>basically extend the driver parameter system to also include settings from the config
10:03<@planetmaker>though one could devise a setting like sound=drivername
10:03<@planetmaker>and video=sdl
10:03<@planetmaker>or so
10:03<@peter1138>what's wrong with sounddriver=? heh
10:04<@planetmaker>well. yes :-)
10:04<@planetmaker>but that's the same as music driver, not? ;-)
10:04<@planetmaker>but sounddriver= and videodriver= is better
10:04<@planetmaker>so: yes
10:04<@peter1138>i'm confused. we already have sounddriver, videodriver and musicdriver
10:05<@planetmaker>hm, sound and music driver are different entities?
10:05<@planetmaker>then ok :-)
10:05<@peter1138>yes of course
10:09<Celestar>we could convert all the music files into oggs and play them :P
10:09<@peter1138>you could
10:09<Celestar>I fail to see a big disadvantage there (yet)
10:11<@Yexo>filesize?
10:11<Celestar>yeah.
10:11<Celestar>but it's not THAT much :P
10:11<Celestar>compare to openttdcoop's newgrf packs :D
10:11<Celestar>anyway I gotta run for a bit
10:11-!-dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
10:11<Celestar>\o
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>of course we have no legal way to convert the original music
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10:13<z-MaTRiX>i dooont miss the music
10:13<z-MaTRiX>try mp3
10:14<z-MaTRiX>though once there were some cool sounds in "Lotus"
10:14<z-MaTRiX>it was some kindof midi too
10:18<@peter1138>what do you mean "try mp3" ?
10:18-!-TheMask96 [~martijn@gluttony.vhost.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:18<z-MaTRiX>i used to put in music
10:18<z-MaTRiX>like milk inc
10:19<z-MaTRiX>scooter
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10:20<Eddi|zuHause>how does scooter constitute "music"?
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>:p
10:20<z-MaTRiX>hmm well
10:20<z-MaTRiX>few years ago they have made a few
10:20<z-MaTRiX>though nowadays they are fail
10:21<z-MaTRiX>so stopped following ;<
10:21<z-MaTRiX>heres a nice song
10:21<z-MaTRiX>Vincent de Moor- Fly Away
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10:25<z-MaTRiX>Anastasia - Anastasia :)
10:26<Eddi|zuHause>you're talking about the same scooter whose entire repertoire consisted of shouting random words into a megaphone?
10:27<z-MaTRiX>lets see
10:27<z-MaTRiX>scooter - Re-Bell-Yell
10:27<z-MaTRiX>this was not about that
10:28<z-MaTRiX>scooter - Everything is borrowed
10:29<z-MaTRiX>well th others are a bit like you said ;>> but still cool
10:30<z-MaTRiX>let me be your valentine @ 298BPM ;>.
10:30<z-MaTRiX>that was big too
10:30<Eddi|zuHause>sure they're cool. if you are a teenager and it's mid 1990s
10:31<z-MaTRiX>:)
10:31<z-MaTRiX>This is eternity
10:32-!-pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-035-161.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:32<Eddi|zuHause>that was 15 years ago, damnit...
10:32<z-MaTRiX>it was 2 weeks for me
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10:35<z-MaTRiX>there are probably many tracks you never heard before, and they are many years old ;)
10:35<z-MaTRiX>ABSOLOM - Secret ?
10:36<z-MaTRiX>MUTE PRESENTS JUSTINE BAKER - R.H.Y.T.H.M. 2000
10:37<@peter1138>Can - One More Night
10:37<z-MaTRiX>and milk inc was on the head of the toplists in 2002
10:37<z-MaTRiX>and in some countries never herd of, years after...
10:40<appe>milk inc :(
10:41<z-MaTRiX>still alive though the girls are being changed over time ;<
10:42<z-MaTRiX>i have all tracks ;>
10:43<z-MaTRiX>there are similar LAsgo, and Sylver songs too
10:44<z-MaTRiX>also note that scooter was generating music for Dune before 2k
10:45<z-MaTRiX>so there are scooter instruments/notes in some dune songs
10:47<Eddi|zuHause>you mean dune, who never had a single original note in any of their songs
10:48<z-MaTRiX>;>
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11:23<z-MaTRiX>ahaha
11:23<z-MaTRiX>VmallocTotal: 34359738367 kB
11:23<z-MaTRiX>cat /proc/meminfo
11:30<@peter1138>VmallocTotal: 34359738367 kB
11:30<@peter1138>coincidence?
11:30<z-MaTRiX>yep
11:30<@planetmaker>uhm... :-)
11:30<z-MaTRiX>;>
11:31*peter1138 remembers the days when the size of /proc/kcore corresponded to available RAM
11:31<@peter1138>if it still did, then i'd have 128TB in here...
11:33<z-MaTRiX>cat /proc/softirqs | grep -i '[ ]timer'
11:34<z-MaTRiX>can i use this for timing?
11:34<z-MaTRiX>or RCU
11:35<@planetmaker>yes. The question is whether it'll be usable timing ;-)
11:35<@planetmaker>I can also use a broken clock for timing ;-)
11:35<z-MaTRiX>was thinking about resolution 1/100 sec only...
11:35<z-MaTRiX>cat <(date) /proc/softirqs
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11:41<Eddi|zuHause>VmallocTotal: 34359738367 kB
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>VmallocTotal: 122880 kB
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>err...
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11:44<z-MaTRiX>thats meant to be VmallocUsed i think
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>VmallocUsed: 314400 kB
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>VmallocUsed: 6772 kB
11:45<z-MaTRiX>so you have 2 total sizes?
11:45<Eddi|zuHause>i have two computers
11:45<z-MaTRiX>ahaa
11:47<@Rubidium>interesting amount of allocated "memory"
11:48<@Rubidium>heh? Who op-ed me?
11:48<Sacro>05:06 -!- mode/#openttd [+o Rubidium] by ChanServ
11:48-!-mode/#openttd [-o Rubidium] by Rubidium
11:48<Eddi|zuHause>@base 10 16 34359738367
11:48<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 7FFFFFFFF
11:49<Rubidium>oh, stupid chanserv
11:49<Eddi|zuHause>so, will that be the next memory "limit"?
11:50<Rubidium>32GiB?
11:50<Eddi|zuHause>TiB
11:50<Rubidium>oh, it's in kB ;)
11:51<Rubidium>@base 2**45
11:51<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: Error: '2**45' is not a valid base.
11:51<Rubidium>@calc 2**45
11:51<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 35184372088832
11:51<Rubidium>@calc 2**45/1024
11:51<@DorpsGek>Rubidium: 34359738368
11:51<Rubidium>seems like an odd limit to me
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11:55<Rubidium>x86_64 currently supports 2**48 (256 TiB)
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11:59<Rubidium>can't really find a reliable source for the kernel limit (unless diving into the source code)
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12:08<z-MaTRiX>i got something for you here http://matrix.z-labor.com/tmp/largehdd_postmsg.jpg
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12:37<Eddi|zuHause>http://root.stannigel.de/asmmhome/de_railway/doppelstock/doppelstock_dbm.html <-- who's gonna turn this into sprites?
12:38<Rubidium>Dany!
12:38<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, just wanted to ask where the cubicles are when you need them :p
12:42<z-MaTRiX>elaborating ghc
12:42<z-MaTRiX>[183104] rotflcopter > (2/0) == (3/0)
12:42<z-MaTRiX>[183105] lambdabot True
12:43<z-MaTRiX>:)
12:43<z-MaTRiX>[182900] mah_b > ((1/0)/(1/0)) == ((1/0)/(1/0))
12:43<z-MaTRiX>[182901] lambdabot False
12:43<z-MaTRiX>[183155] rotflcopter > 0/0 /= 1
12:43<z-MaTRiX>[183157] lambdabot True
12:44<z-MaTRiX>opinions?
12:51-!-MINM [~mBuntu@ip5452ffad.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #openttd
12:51<MINM>huh.
12:51<MINM>must have hit a wrong button today
12:55<z-MaTRiX>hi crazy train driver
12:56<MINM>me?
12:57<z-MaTRiX>yes saw your real name
12:58<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: That list isn't even complete, it's missing all the modern variants with high doors at the ends.
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: possible
12:59<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: although none of the "high doors" types are actually in use in east germany
13:00<Eddi|zuHause>at least i have never actually seen one
13:05<+michi_cc>It might be possible that some of them have found their way into the east by now, but the high door variants seem to be more common in the west. Hannover for example usually sees high doors except at the cab cars.
13:07<MINM>oh, right.
13:07<MINM>don't remember when I config'd that.
13:07<MINM>must've been drunk.
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13:18<|Jeroen|>mhzz never tried drunk coding, can't be easy
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13:25<MINM>I can be at my most productive when buzzed
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13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23058 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/tamil.txt:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: tamil - 1 changes by aswn
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13:53<z-MaTRiX> 0*0 /= 0; 0/0 == 1; 0+0 == 2*0; 0*0 /= 1*0 /= 2*0; opinions?
13:55<@Alberth>0/0 == 1 ???? who was your math teacher?
13:55<z-MaTRiX>any number / itself = 1
13:56<z-MaTRiX>0 is a number
13:56<@Alberth>except division by 0 is undefined
13:56<Eddi|zuHause>where's that stab-over-IP device?
13:56<z-MaTRiX>any number divided by zero is infinity
13:57<Eddi|zuHause>so 0/0 is both 1 and infinity!
13:57<z-MaTRiX>no, its division by itself
13:58<z-MaTRiX>but not bad question <;
13:58<__ln__>z-MaTRiX: mathematicians of the world are grateful that you solved the question they've been pondering for so long -- what's something divided by zero.
13:58<z-MaTRiX>;>>
13:59<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: in fact, you can make 0/0 be _any_ number
13:59<@Alberth>z-MaTRiX: next problem, what's sqrt(-1) ? (this one is actually easy :p )
14:00<z-MaTRiX>a/a = 1
14:00<z-MaTRiX>well thats been solved already
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>(2a)/a = 2
14:00<z-MaTRiX>sqrt(-1) = i
14:00<z-MaTRiX>(sqrt(-1)*sqrt(-1))=-1
14:00<@Alberth>:)
14:00<Eddi|zuHause>for a=0 you have (2*0)/0 = 0/0 = 2
14:00<z-MaTRiX>Eddi|zuHause<< no, make it 2*(a/a) = 2
14:01<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: but what if sqrt(-1) = -i?
14:01<z-MaTRiX>Eddi|zuHause<< thats an imaginary number
14:01<z-MaTRiX>called i
14:01<@Alberth>no, Eddi|zuHause is not an imaginary number, I am sure!
14:02<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: but (-i)*(-i) = -1 as well. so sqrt(-1) must be -i
14:02<z-MaTRiX>http://www.google.com/search?q=sqrt(-1)
14:02<frosch123>sqrt(x) is not a number, but a set of two numbers
14:03<frosch123>where {0, 0} counts as set of two numbers :p
14:04<z-MaTRiX>Eddi|zuHause<< yes
14:04<z-MaTRiX>(-sqrt(-1)) * (-sqrt(-1)) = -1
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: it's even more, when you count all the "equivalent" representations of r*e^(phi*i) separately
14:05<z-MaTRiX>(-sqrt(-1)) * sqrt(-1) = 1
14:05<@Alberth>so -1 is 1
14:05<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: that would not be related to the sqrt, but could be said about any number
14:05<z-MaTRiX>still imaginary number :)
14:06<frosch123>z-MaTRiX: sqrt(-1) * sqrt(-1) != sqrt(-1)^2
14:06<z-MaTRiX>False
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: that is fairly relevant once you speak about holomorphic functions. e.g. the holomorphic expansion of sqrt to some subset of |C
14:07<frosch123>the cross product of two sets is not the element-wise square of a set
14:07<z-MaTRiX>-i = 1 / sqrt(-1)
14:10<frosch123>z-MaTRiX: what's the third root of -1 ?
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: your way only works if you take the holomorphic expansion of sqrt to the plane |C \ (-oo,0) with sqrt(1)=1
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: but there are infinitely many holomorphic expansions of sqrt
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: almost none of which result in sqrt(-1) = i
14:12<z-MaTRiX>-(1^(-3)) = -1 ; -(1^3) = -1
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: if you say that in a maths exam, you almost automatically fail.
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14:15<z-MaTRiX>well i said that many times and i passed
14:15<z-MaTRiX>also use it in electronics for calculations
14:15<z-MaTRiX>your computer uses it too
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14:19<@Alberth>hi Wolf01
14:19<Wolf01>hello
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14:35<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: ok, then something easier, what's i^i?
14:36<z-MaTRiX>sqrt(-1)^sqrt(-1) = 0.207879576
14:36<z-MaTRiX>good question <;
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>i mean the exact value
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>including how to actually derive it
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14:37<Eddi|zuHause>(we did that in school, btw.)
14:37<__ln__>am i the only one who feels that WolframAlpha used to accept Mathematica syntax, but now it doesn't anymore?
14:38<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: maybe your mathematica syntax is off instead?
14:38<Rubidium>e**(-pi/2)?
14:38<z-MaTRiX>((-1)^(1 / 2))^((-1)^(1 / 2)) = 0.207879576
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: yup
14:40<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: how's that more accurate than your previous statement?
14:40<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: i guess that's possible
14:41<z-MaTRiX>you could write i^i
14:42<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: it's actually pretty funny that it's a real number :)
14:43<z-MaTRiX>no its not
14:43<z-MaTRiX>its an imaginary number
14:43<Rubidium>it reminded me of e**(pi*i)
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: what's the imaginary part of 0.207879576?
14:44<frosch123>0
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: in some way it has to do with that, yes
14:46<z-MaTRiX>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number
14:46<z-MaTRiX>giving up
14:46<z-MaTRiX>bb
14:47<z-MaTRiX>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_square_root#Square_roots_of_negative_and_complex_numbers
14:50<frosch123>z-MaTRiX: when you have read that, you should result in exp(-pi/2)
14:50<frosch123>oh, rb, already said that
14:51<Rubidium>sorry, my bad ;)
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14:55<andythenorth>hola
14:56<Terkhen>hi andythenorth
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>holá señor
15:02<__ln__>¿todos ya les han comprado algo de amazon.es?
15:05<Terkhen>amazon.es sucks
15:05<Terkhen>it has almost nothing, and the books I wanted last time were cheaper on .co.uk
15:05<Terkhen>it might get better after some time but for now...
15:07<__ln__>me compró un libro y un cd
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there are other places where you can get spanish language books
15:25<__ln__>probably, but not too well known.
15:26<Eddi|zuHause>hm... need inspiration on how to do company specific introduction dates
15:27<Terkhen>yes, they exist
15:27<Terkhen>but luckily I can read english fine :P
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>i only read like two english language books
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>actually i only remember one
15:29<@Belugas>me too, the last one read :)
15:30<@Belugas>actually...not even a book.. an instruction manual...
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>you actually read instruction manuals? :p
15:31<@Belugas>ho yeah...
15:31<@Belugas>like bible...
15:31<@Belugas>last one to date: BOSS GT10
15:31<Eddi|zuHause>never actually read the bible either
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15:39<__ln__>the bible should be read in its original language, english
15:39<b_jonas>__ln__: you mean klingon
15:40<b_jonas>__ln__: which of the English translations is the original?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>b_jonas: the one done by your local ultra-funamentalist hate-preacher
15:42<@Alberth>english the original language?
15:43<@Alberth>sounds highly unlikely to me
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15:44*andythenorth has read an english language book
15:45<b_jonas>I am reading an English language book right now, but not the Bible
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15:47*Alberth sets a check-mark at the b_jonas/reading English book, and a cross at b_jonas/Bible
15:48<@Alberth>still stuck :p
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15:48<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
15:49<andythenorth>here is the book I read :P http://www.amazon.com/LeTourneau-Earthmovers-Eric-C-Orlemann/dp/0760308403/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319744948&sr=1-1
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16:28<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23059 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix [FS#4794]: if a newgrf overrides a default house the minimum start year for that house was set to 1930
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16:46<Wolf01>'night
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17:01<Terkhen>good night
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17:10<Eddi|zuHause>something is very wrong with the newest wine i installed a few days ago
17:28<Markk>Wrong type of grape?
17:42<TrueBrain>not enough alcohol?
17:45<+glx>or too much
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17:54<supermop_>did you install the wine directly to the liver?
17:55<Markk>IJ - Intra jecur (liver)
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20:25<daniel_>password
20:26<daniel_>!!password
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20:37<DDR>http://www.pasteall.org/pic/19758 Currently running through about one/week, here.
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 28 00:00:28 2011