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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-29

---Logopened Sat Oct 29 00:00:33 2011
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01:47<Rubidium>dihedral: if we would be aware of the fact it would be somewhat likely that we aren't asleep yet
01:50<Rubidium>although it seems to works again ;)
02:20<z-MaTRiX>what version do you recommend playing with today? :)
02:21<z-MaTRiX>will there be multiplayer games too?
02:21<z-MaTRiX>i have noticed the spread is quite large
02:24<z-MaTRiX>btw why is every single version incompatible with eachother in multiplayer ?
02:25<z-MaTRiX>will moving a menu-element coordinate on a local users display affect dataflow ?
02:25<@planetmaker>it's a 100% deterministic game
02:25<@planetmaker>for the gameplay.
02:26<z-MaTRiX>still didnt take the time to find the main function
02:26<z-MaTRiX>in sources
02:42<Rubidium>because clicking doesn't work anymore?
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03:32<Elukka>gratuitous zeppelin, because everything is better with zeppelins
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03:41<@planetmaker>not bad. Though the rotor blades look a bit thin
03:45<Elukka>trivia: it's 760 meters from bow to stern, the props are nuclear-powered, it carries mostly cargo though there are also passenger cabins
03:45<Elukka>and i'm gonna have to go!
03:48<@Yexo><z-MaTRiX> will moving a menu-element coordinate on a local users display affect dataflow ? <- it doens't. However it's way to much work to mark every revision that does cause incompatibility as "incompatible with last version"
03:49<@Yexo>out of the last 10 commits, the following are incompatible: r23059, r23050 and r23049
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04:21<dihedral>good morning
04:22<dihedral>planetmaker, r23060M <- LOL
04:23<dihedral>Rubidium, and if you were not aware of it, that highlight would have been enough to let you know :-P
04:26<dihedral>finding a year old changesets does not make things easier
04:26<Terkhen>good morning
04:27<@Alberth>good morning Terkhen
04:28<dihedral>both of you
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04:32<Ammler>todays recommend version
04:32<andythenorth>does 50mph justify calling a tram 'Express' ?
04:32<Ammler>come back tomorrow if you do not like this rev
04:32<dihedral>depends on all other trans around that one tram
04:33<dihedral>even not stopping at every station justifies calling it express
04:33<dihedral>germany has express trains - just they are f.... late
04:34<Ammler>andythenorth: how do those trams overtake a slow one?
04:34<andythenorth>Ammler: they don't
04:35<andythenorth>use trucks :P
04:39<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: moin
04:39<andythenorth>need to figure out tram scheme
04:39<andythenorth>cab cars are 7t or 8t
04:39<andythenorth>wagons are 15t or 16t
04:41<andythenorth>needs refit capacities from low (supplies, food etc) to quite high (~250t)
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04:48<z-MaTRiX>i have got a 8500GT PCI-E nvidia card, if i make it work on linux (without the binary shit from nvidia) will it provide superior video performance ?
04:48<z-MaTRiX>or i need the nvidia binary shit for any hardware accelerated opengl?
04:50<dihedral>i have xgl and an intel graphics card
04:53<@Alberth>i don't care for performance or gl
04:55*andythenorth has a GPU in his laptop
04:55<@planetmaker>the ony thin is, that many sentences without any g or l woud ook a bit strane :-P
04:55<@planetmaker>thus I do care about gl :-P
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05:01<z-MaTRiX>well i have this now
05:01<z-MaTRiX>NV5M64 [RIVA TNT2 Model 64/Model 64 Pro] (rev 15)
05:02<z-MaTRiX>and openttd works... though lagging a lot zoomed out at 1024x768
05:02<z-MaTRiX>and especially in multiplayer
05:04<@Alberth>in MP you also have the network in the equation, better test locally only imho
05:05<z-MaTRiX>tested locally, and lagging zoomed out, cpu is 2.2GHz AMD64 (3500+) mem is DDR 400, 1GB
05:05<@planetmaker>openttd cares not about your graphics card really
05:05<z-MaTRiX>nvidia does not provide sources for driver so on linux its only software
05:06<@Alberth>openttd does not do opengl at all
05:06<z-MaTRiX>ok but opengl can be accelerated by the videocard
05:06<@planetmaker>thus any lag most likely is not caused by graphics drivers
05:06<z-MaTRiX>what does opengl use for output?
05:06<Rubidium>planetmaker: that might not be true
05:06<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX: but openttd doesn't use it... so it has no impact
05:06<z-MaTRiX>what does openttd use for output?
05:07<@planetmaker>Rubidium: using opengl? with *I have a patch*-patch? ;-)
05:07<Rubidium>if it sends 8bpp data and some slow piece of software tries to convert that (especially with palette animation), the driver/hardware will be of influence
05:07<Rubidium>planetmaker: it's about lag caused by the graphics driver
05:08<@planetmaker>then you'd have similar lag of similar other applications
05:08<@planetmaker>like dosbox
05:08<Rubidium>and you have any proof that doesn't happen?
05:08<Rubidium>even then, zooming out means drawing lots and lots of sprites which is a lot of work on itself already
05:08<z-MaTRiX>openttd does not output graphics using opengl?
05:09<z-MaTRiX>i remember it was opengl...
05:09<@planetmaker>Rubidium: but where comes opengl into that equation?
05:09<Rubidium>in any case, if going from 8bpp-optimized to 32bpp-animated yields a performance boost, then the graphics hardware/driver is a significant part of the slowness problem
05:09<z-MaTRiX>i have put openttd in opengl directory years ago
05:10<@planetmaker>z-MaTRiX: your problem ;-)
05:10<@planetmaker>but there's no opengl output. Unless it happens internal to your graphics driver. Nor has there been more opengl except some patch somewhen somewhere
05:10<Rubidium>planetmaker: but you state lag is most likely not caused by the graphics driver, which I've seen several occasions of where it did influence stuff significantly
05:11<@planetmaker>ok :-)
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05:11<z-MaTRiX>Rubidium<< even if its software rendering only because of nvidia?
05:12<Rubidium>OpenTTD ofcourse doesn't care whether gl is handled in software or in hardware; that shouldn't cause any significant differences
05:12<Rubidium>(unless it's a graphics card that does almost everything in software except sending the signal, like those lovely winmodems)
05:12<z-MaTRiX>i assumbe you haven't tried nvidia card with software drivers
05:12<z-MaTRiX>on linux
05:13<z-MaTRiX>im only using an nvidia card because i got this free
05:13<Rubidium>even then, OpenTTD is very well suited to work badly with gl
05:13<z-MaTRiX>otherwise ATI
05:15<z-MaTRiX>i think i'll change my nvidia cards to ati
05:15<z-MaTRiX>a little improvement would be nice in video performance
05:19<z-MaTRiX>CPU and memory performance is not bad if you think about that
05:20<z-MaTRiX>does sha512sum on files with <45% cpu load @ 90MB/s (hdd limit)
05:21<z-MaTRiX>coreutils compile is 9 minutes
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05:35*Alberth waves hi
05:36<TrueBrain>owh, you here?
05:37<TrueBrain>well, yeah ..
05:37<TrueBrain>yes: hello!
05:37<@Alberth>good morning TB :)
05:37*Alberth offers some coffee
05:38<TrueBrain>cheers mate :)
05:40<LordAro>hi, Alberth :)
05:40<LordAro>...and Truebrain
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06:36<Arafangion>z-MaTRiX: What's the issue you have with nvidia cards?
06:36<Arafangion>z-MaTRiX: The opensource (nouveau) drivers are pretty good although they have poor ABI stability as yet.
06:36<z-MaTRiX>driver issue on linux
06:37<Arafangion>z-MaTRiX: Generally speaking, I've had a fairly good experience with NVidia on linux - compared with ATI, at least.
06:37<Arafangion>z-MaTRiX: Although I haven't used ATI since the AMD takeover, I hear they've improved since then.
06:44<z-MaTRiX>i have custom kernel and binary fails to assimilate.
06:45<Arafangion>z-MaTRiX: Which kernel?
06:45<Arafangion>z-MaTRiX: You should be able to recompile the kernel part.
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07:00<z-MaTRiX>no worries
07:01<z-MaTRiX>i'll get ati cards
07:01<z-MaTRiX>no since its binary shit
07:01<z-MaTRiX>i cannot recompile it
07:02<z-MaTRiX>and also the installer is lame enought to not know my system structure either
07:02<z-MaTRiX>(where to copy the files)
07:07<Ammler>he, I needed to wait a year until my favorite pc factory sells again nvidia pc and you prefer ati :-P
07:09<z-MaTRiX>well it will work because they provide sources for drivers
07:09<z-MaTRiX>and i can have hardware acceleration on linux
07:10<z-MaTRiX>currently any scrap ati card will outperform any nvidia card on linux if you use software rendering
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07:29<TrueBrain>AVG 2012 advises me to restart Firefox, as it is using a HUGE amount of memory (404 MiB) .. that at least is what AVG considers HUGE :P
07:29<TrueBrain>silly AVG
07:31<MINM>too much if you ask me >.>
07:31<MINM>then again
07:31<MINM>AVG probably uses more
07:32<TrueBrain>not by a long shot
07:33<TrueBrain>avg uses ... 20 MiB
07:33<TrueBrain>at most
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07:38<MINM>what happened to huge clunky av-s who ate all your ram and cpu?
07:38<@Alberth>AVG recommended it to be killed perhaps?
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08:48<andythenorth>'tis quiet
08:55<MINM>...too quite
08:55<andythenorth>'ottd is dying'
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09:00<V453000>not that openttd is the topic here all the time :P
09:01<andythenorth>how do I exclude bulk cargos?
09:01<andythenorth>afaik there's no way to do it :(
09:01*andythenorth needs eye test
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09:11<andythenorth>can I build powered trailers in an articulated rv?
09:11<__ln__>i won't object
09:17<frosch123>trailers have neither weight nor power
09:17<frosch123>you can only change the properties of the front vehicle
09:18<andythenorth>thanks :P
09:28<dihedral>this world is way to quiet today ...
09:38*andythenorth was actually writing nfo
09:38<andythenorth>and will be biab
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09:41<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 30/5
09:41<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 6
09:41<dihedral>you've got to be kidding Eddi|zuHause
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>never calculate anything involving numbers beyond 4...
09:43<@Alberth>why calculate at all, write (30/5) instead :)
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>that's what i did, you see? :)
09:47<@Alberth>why do you care about the value then?
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>in case andy ever comes back: (at the bottom)
10:03<@Alberth>he probably does, he seems to be walking in and out the entire day :)
10:20<Eddi|zuHause>hm... updated with alternate version
10:22<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: now add graphics for the other orientations :p
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>the (b) variant matches CETS scale, the (a) variant is slightly shortened
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10:32<@Alberth>nice start for an ASCII art climate :p
10:33<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: only each letter is about 1 pixel :)
10:34<@Alberth>oh, you have extra zoom too? nice!
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10:36<KOPOBA>where openttd.cfg located?
10:36<@Alberth>depends on your operating system, it is all written in the README document
10:36<KOPOBA>ok i find
10:39<z-MaTRiX>uniq -d <(sort <(sed -E 's;[ ]*[0-9]+[ ]+(.*);\1;' <(history)))
10:39<z-MaTRiX>print repeated commands list without pipe
10:40<Eddi|zuHause>and <() is not a pipe?
10:41<z-MaTRiX>its a fifo
10:41<z-MaTRiX>well similar
10:41<@Alberth>aka pipe :)
10:41<z-MaTRiX>but not same
10:41<Eddi|zuHause>of course it's the sam...
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>it's just written backwards
10:42<Eddi|zuHause>"a | b" is equivalent to "b <(a)"
10:42<z-MaTRiX>history | sed -E 's;[ ]*[0-9]+[ ]+(.*);\1;' | sort | uniq -d
10:43<@Alberth>like z-MaTRiX
10:43<@Alberth>some people like to write things backwards,
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>like ostlandr...
10:51<z-MaTRiX>(sort <(sed -E 's;[ ]*[0-9]+[ ]+(.*);\1;' <(history)))> >(uniq -d)
10:51<z-MaTRiX>now its zigzag
10:55<TrueBrain>how to make statements as unreadable as possible?
10:56<@Alberth>use a C++ template :)
10:56<TrueBrain>use perl :P
10:57<z-MaTRiX>uniq -d <((sed -E 's;[ ]*[0-9]+[ ]+(.*);\1;' <(history))> >(sort))
10:57<z-MaTRiX>process substitution playground ;>
10:58<z-MaTRiX>TrueBrain<< what language?
10:58-!-Sacro^ is now known as Sacro
10:58<@Alberth>lol, even the C++ compiler starts to suggest things: error: "...‘max’ was not declared.." -> "...note: suggested alternative: ... ‘std::max’"
10:58<z-MaTRiX>yeah that cool
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: well, it has been telling things like "suggest () around &"
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>for years
11:01<Eddi|zuHause>(but usually that meant you forgot () elsewhere)
11:01<@Alberth>good point
11:05<TrueBrain>still, suggesting std::max when you use max, is of another type of suggestion
11:05<TrueBrain>what is next ... when you use DX it suggests to use OpenGL? :P
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>when you compile on mac it suggests compiling on linux? :p
11:22<@Alberth>'you should have dinner now' :D
11:22<@Alberth>which seems like a good suggestion :)
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11:24<Eddi|zuHause>civ4 had something like a "get some snacks" 'tip'
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11:26<Terkhen>for civ4 I would like a "close after X turns" option
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11:46<Michel>Hello there, :D
11:46*MINM waves
11:47<Michel>32bb projects is that still gowing on ?
11:54<frosch123> <- check yourself
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>a propos chuck...
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12:15<__ln__>quiz question: where's this taken:
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12:28<b_jonas>wow, this ship unloads iron ore quite fast
12:29<b_jonas>good thing I have a crane tile next to the dock for showing that
12:29<z-MaTRiX>just open a door below, iron-ore will fall out
12:30<@Alberth>and water pours in :p
12:30<z-MaTRiX>you can close it before water pours in
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13:04<KillerByte>I just edited the Main Wiki test page, and it hasent appeared to be updated to the main wiki page for oever a year. I just made a change of my own and am wondering if somone is willing to sync it.
13:04<KOPOBA>can someone advice good font for ottd? default looks ugly =\ and cute fixedsys dont how large sizes =(
13:06<@peter1138>fixedsys... cute... what?
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13:08<KOPOBA>you dont like it?
13:11<blathijs>KillerByte: Terminus is an awesome terminal font, perhaps you'll like that
13:12<KillerByte>I am killerbyte, I am asking about the wiki page being updated
13:12<KillerByte>the main page to be specific
13:18<@Alberth>there were some problems with the wiki DB, not sure whether they are resolved yet
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13:34<KOPOBA>whay it cant use it?
13:35<KOPOBA>what this code means?
13:35<+glx>it failed to found it I think
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13:35<__ln__>in english you need to use the auxiliary verb 'do' in most questions.
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13:37<@Alberth>KOPOBA: just entering the error in the google search bar is often enough to find discussions or solutions
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13:43<KOPOBA>Alberth there is nothing usefull
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23062 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/tamil.txt:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: tamil - 236 changes by aswn
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14:17<frosch123>KillerByte: done
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15:06<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 484*cos(pi/12)
15:06<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 467.508099924
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 484*(1-cos(pi/12))
15:07<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 16.4919000761
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 484*(sin(pi/12))
15:07<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 125.26841783
15:08<frosch123>@calc sin(pi)
15:08<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 0
15:08<frosch123>you are lucky it uses radians
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>i would have noticed that :p
15:09<frosch123>i never type any sin or cos into any kind of calculator before verifying that :)
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>(it would also be really weird if it didn't)
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 484*(sin(pi/12))+30*cos(pi/12)
15:12<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 154.246192618
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 484*(1-cos(pi/12))+30*sin(pi/12)
15:13<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 24.2564714292
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 484*(sin(pi/12))+50*cos(pi/12)
15:13<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 173.564709144
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 484*(1-cos(pi/12))+50*sin(pi/12)
15:13<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 29.4328523312
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds better
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15:30<@planetmaker> <-- find the animal ;-)
15:30<@planetmaker>frosch123: your name partner is doing a better job at hiding ;-)
15:30<@planetmaker>at least in plain sight :-P
15:31<MINM>mehh, spotted it at once
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16:56<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23063 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp table/control_codes.h): -Add: [NewGRF] stringscodes 9A 19 and 9A 20 to print 'short volume' and 'short weight' respectively
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16:58<@Yexo>right, after 19 follows 1A, not 20 :p
17:00<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23064 /trunk/src/newgrf_text.cpp: -Fix (r23062): incrementing hexadecimal numbers is hard...
17:00<@Yexo>and writing the correct revision number in a commit message too .....
17:01<z-MaTRiX>hi and whatis this
17:02*planetmaker gives Yexo one of the left-over pieces of cake as consolation
17:02<@Yexo>thanks planetmaker :)
17:02<Rubidium>oh, I've got some spare cake/pie as well
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17:07<Eddi|zuHause>we should all use the occasion and meet to celebrate r23064 then!
17:08<@Alberth>since it is somewhat short notice, let's do that at the internet
17:08<@Alberth>unfortunately, I have another appointment already with my bed
17:09<@Alberth>good nught all
17:09<@Yexo>gn Alberth
17:09<@planetmaker>g'night Alberth
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17:12*planetmaker got a similar appointment and wishes also a good night
17:12<@Yexo>good night planetmaker
17:21<Eddi|zuHause>i never keep appointments...
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17:25<z-MaTRiX>p=printf\ ;a="The Matrix has you...";for i in $(eval $p'%s\\n' '{0..'"${#a}}"'' ) ;do $p'%c' "${a:i}";sleep .$(($RANDOM*20));done;$p\\n
17:31<TrueBrain>you and your silly scripts
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17:34<z-MaTRiX>they would like to teach bash
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18:29<pikka>sup chaps
18:30<__ln__>we're operating within normal parameters
18:31<supermop_>not i
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18:49<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__ watched too much startrek again
18:50<supermop_>not possible
18:50<MINM>just as long as his warp drive doesn't come online
18:50<MINM>that'd be embarrassing
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19:18<Eddi|zuHause>hm... time switch tonight
19:19<__ln__>finally the hour back that was stolen by society
19:21<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't really matter much, tomorrow is sunday and monday is holiday
19:23<dihedral>tuseday is holiday
19:25<Eddi|zuHause>that heavily depends on your location :p
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19:28<dihedral>ah :P
19:29<dihedral>where is monday the holiday then?
19:29<dihedral>'cause in my location monday is not a holiday
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19:30<__ln__>there is no holiday
19:33<dihedral>there is no spoon
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>31.10. is "reformation day" (in majorly protestantic areas)
19:35<Eddi|zuHause>(especially east and north germany)
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19:39<dihedral>ah :)
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19:40<__ln__>never heard of such day before, although i've heard about the Luther person
19:42<supermop__->never heard of it in the US
19:44<__ln__>dear germany, please stop celebrating a day others haven't heard of.
19:48<dihedral>i know may the 4th as star wars day :-P
19:54<__ln__>i've looked into Luther's office, but he wasn't there. maybe i was ~450 years late or something.
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22:46<pikka>Melbourne gets a public holiday for a horse race D:
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 30 00:00:35 2011