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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-10-30

---Logopened Sun Oct 30 00:00:35 2011
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03:49<Terkhen>good morning
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04:34<@planetmaker>moin
04:36<V453000>morning pm :)
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05:53<@Alberth>moin
05:54<andythenorth>hola
05:55<andythenorth>Yexo: does the FIRS fertiliser plant string update need ottd tip (or recent)?
05:56<@Yexo>yes
05:56<andythenorth>k
05:56<@Yexo>r23064 to be exact
05:56<andythenorth>thanks
05:56<@Yexo>firs still works in older versions, just that string might be shown completely wrong
05:58<andythenorth>yeah it fails ;)
05:58<@Alberth>:)
06:00<andythenorth>depending on the baby, today might be a FIRS day
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>oh andythenorth is back
06:01<andythenorth>yup :)
06:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/tram.txt (at the bottom)
06:01<andythenorth>interruptions permitting :)
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>the (b) variant matches CETS scale, the (a) variant is slightly shortened
06:02<andythenorth>I'll probably shorten
06:02<andythenorth>that is quite some work with ascii ;)
06:02<@Alberth>and the first seduction to do something else has already shown up :)
06:03<andythenorth>Alberth: the FIRS work is significantly unappealing :(
06:05<@Alberth>and no nice new things become possible by doing this boring work? bummer :(
06:06<andythenorth>maybe we just call FIRS 'done'
06:06<Eddi|zuHause>you wanted to implement new supplies mechanism
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>and economies
06:08<@Alberth>andythenorth: well, 'we' needs to make a decision, I'd say :)
06:08<andythenorth>I'm kind of stuck with it
06:08<andythenorth>I've lost all motivation to draw any more sprites
06:09<@Alberth>you want even more industries?
06:09<andythenorth>no
06:09<andythenorth>but I need to finish / improve some
06:09<andythenorth>and there's snow
06:09<andythenorth>to do
06:09<@Alberth>lots of work :(
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06:10<andythenorth>I'm now reliant on other people to get the sprites into the game
06:10<andythenorth>so I can only really draw and test when there are other people with time to tell me how the code works
06:10<andythenorth>and I have no patience to 'draw...then wait'
06:11<@Alberth>right, so it is time to learn nml?
06:11<andythenorth>I really can't be arsed
06:11<andythenorth>it doesn't look interesting
06:11<andythenorth>and it's not nml, it's advanced CPP + nml
06:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: so the tram...
06:12<@Alberth>I think nml should have nice macro expansion support instead of the hacky cpp
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06:12<Celestar>\o
06:12<andythenorth>:)
06:12<@Alberth>o/
06:13<andythenorth>this tram is going to be fun
06:13<andythenorth>I have to change the graphics of the rear vehicle according to refit *and* position :)
06:13*Alberth shudders
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no, the rear vehicle is always vehicle 15
06:13<Eddi|zuHause>so not depending on position
06:14<andythenorth>oh right, we just fold the others in
06:14<andythenorth>ok
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>position-dependent are only the middle vehicles
06:14<andythenorth>this is fun too
06:14<@Alberth>good :)
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>i did think that variant is way more sane :)
06:15<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what length are the vehicles in the shorter variant?
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>the shorter is 5lu, the longer is 6lu
06:17*Celestar is beginning to dislike Ubuntu Unity
06:18<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the cab cars are 6lu?
06:18<Eddi|zuHause>no, also 5lu
06:18<andythenorth>great
06:18<andythenorth>I was count - chars :P
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>the length scale is right above/below the vehicles :)
06:19<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: imagine 1 character = 1 pixel
06:20<andythenorth>oh yes - I see the length now
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06:43<andythenorth>pikka: hello
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06:55<Mazur>EEk!
06:56<Mazur>I just saw a bunch of sprites I drew moving around in openttd as if they were an actual train.
06:56<Mazur>SCARY.
06:57<Mazur>Vewwy, vewwy, vewwy much so.
06:57*Mazur goes and hides in his bed under the blankets.
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08:06<nidhoegger>hi guys
08:07<nidhoegger>ive got a little question: im going to host a dedicated server for me and some friends on my server. is there an option that the server autosaves the game, so in case of a server crash the game can be recovered? in the wiki i find the autosave option unter [gui], so i dont know if it applies when running with -D
08:09<@Yexo>it does
08:09<nidhoegger>thank you!
08:09<@Yexo>it's under [gui] because every client can set it for themselves
08:09<nidhoegger>okay. so if i set autosave to every year, the server will create a savegame every year?
08:10<@Yexo>yes, under the save/autosave/ directory
08:10<@Yexo>just like for clients
08:11<nidhoegger>cool
08:12<nidhoegger>can i use my clients openttd.cfg and modify it so i dont have to write the whole thing myself?
08:12<@Yexo>yes, you can
08:12<nidhoegger>thank you!
08:12<@Yexo>that's actually recommended, you can easily mistype something when creating it from scratch
08:14<MNIM>god knows how people make typos
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08:36*andythenorth finally understands cargo refit masks
08:36<andythenorth>they suddenly look incredibly obvious :P
08:38<@Alberth>:D
08:43<z-MaTRiX>hey-ho
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08:51*andythenorth wonders what cargos to exclude from express trams
08:51<andythenorth>so far: all bulk; livestock; scrap metal
08:51<andythenorth>oil
08:54<andythenorth>petrol
08:56<andythenorth>wood
08:57<Eddi|zuHause>CETS mail cars have: mail,expr,armo,-pass,-bulk,-liqu,BEER,MILK,-MNSP,-ENSP,-FMSP,-FISH
08:59<andythenorth>it amuses me to leave these trams carrying wool
08:59<Eddi|zuHause>although you might want to allow MNSP :)
08:59<andythenorth>but not metal
08:59<andythenorth>15t of wool is clearly lighter than 15t of metal
08:59<andythenorth>hmm
08:59<andythenorth>they can't carry lumber though
08:59<andythenorth>and there's nothing I can do about that :(
09:00<andythenorth>I have no slots free in the CTT for HEQS
09:00<Eddi|zuHause>what do you need all those slots for?
09:00<andythenorth>hysterical raisins I guess
09:00<andythenorth>it's a copy and paste CTT from Zephyris that has grown organically :P
09:01<andythenorth>most of it is default cargo stuff
09:01<andythenorth>but unpicking it now would be much work
09:01<andythenorth>the main issue is that 'lumber' is a bulk cargo, because MB insisted on that
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>in CETS we currently have these "reqiured below 32" entries: WOOD, LVST, STEL, MILK, WDPR, BDMT, BEER, FISH, FMSP, ENSP, MNSP,
09:01<andythenorth>interestink
09:02<andythenorth>frosch123: once we discusses a more sane refit system
09:02<andythenorth>where refittability is negotiated
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>cargos need weight, volume and area, to make sensible refit capacities
09:04<andythenorth>he
09:04<@Yexo>is area really relevant?
09:04<andythenorth>my trams can refit to wool, but not cotton
09:04<andythenorth>:)
09:04<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: yes, e.g. for piece goods
09:04<andythenorth>if we had roadtypes, I could add some diesel trams
09:05<andythenorth>thereby extending NG extensively :)
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: especially cars and machines have a don't care on volume, usually
09:05<andythenorth>if we had rv-wagons, we could have mixed NG trains, and more freedom about vehicle lengths
09:05<andythenorth>but in the meantime...
09:05*andythenorth -> coe
09:05<andythenorth>code
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09:06<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: true, but wouldn't for all in-game purposes a large volume do what you want?
09:06<frosch123>andythenorth: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=812365#p812365 <- that one was meant to remove the first-32-cargos restriction
09:07<andythenorth>yes
09:07<frosch123>http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/diffs/refitmask_callback.diff <- against r17382 :p
09:07<andythenorth>it looked like a great idea, if requiring rather a lot of detail when making vehicles :)
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: i'm afraid it's way more complicated. e.g. if you consider an open wagon, you have different max volumes for bulk cargo and piece cargos
09:07<andythenorth>frosch123: what blocked it? No-one made a test grf?
09:08<@Yexo>Eddi|zuHause: as soon as the max volume depends on the cargo type you might as well let the capacity depend on the cargo type, you're gaining nothing in that case
09:08<frosch123>andythenorth: yes, noone tested it :)
09:09<frosch123>and some other day, "someone" was argueing that cargos should decide which vehicles can carry them, and not the other way around :p
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: if you load coal into an open wagon, you can only go as far as the walls allow, if you load a harvesting machine into an open wagon, you can go as far as the loading gauge allows
09:09<z-MaTRiX>what is your opinion of an ATI7000 card?
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09:09<andythenorth>frosch123: when last discussed, iirc we agreed cbs would be needed both ways
09:09<andythenorth>and there'd have to be a decision on which wins
09:09<andythenorth>which is a headache :P
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09:10<Eddi|zuHause>"cargos should decide which vehicles can carry them" <-- supposedly that was the purpose of cargo classes
09:10<z-MaTRiX>:)
09:11<z-MaTRiX>yeah i always wanted intelligent livestock/grain
09:14<pikka>oops
09:14<pikka>goodnight all, hi Andy :)
09:15<andythenorth>hola pikka
09:15<andythenorth>pikka: "crane tanks"
09:15<andythenorth>:P
09:15<andythenorth>talk another time
09:15<pikka>bukkits
09:15<pikka>Gnight
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09:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: what's the shortest express tram possible? Can we get it down to 3 vehicles in total? For lower capacity...
09:43<Eddi|zuHause>i think 4 is the lowest
09:44<andythenorth>k
09:44*andythenorth is puzzling about capacities at the moment
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>for lower amounts, use trucks
09:45<andythenorth>yup
09:46<Eddi|zuHause>i think 60t with 5 wagons is a good compromise
09:47<andythenorth>hmm
09:47*andythenorth spots something
09:47<andythenorth>an obvious way to do 7.5t capacity when there are two vehicles that need it :P
09:47<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23065 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Add: -q option to read a savegame, write some general info and exit
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09:53<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: now the fun part: matching the nfo for capacity + length to your ascii spec
09:53<andythenorth>:)
09:54<andythenorth>ideally without rewriting existing templates :P
09:55<andythenorth>this is the bit you had to bug fix last time...
09:56<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause looks like I need some new options for vehicle length? Currently the template offers me 1/8 or 5/8
09:56<andythenorth>seems I also need 2/8 and 3/8 ?
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>i think i had something like that in my last patch
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>not in the mood to dig that out right now, but i think i can fix something up for you later...
09:57<andythenorth>I thought I committed your patch?
09:57<andythenorth>to adjust the lengths just needs more varaction 2s, it's not painful
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i thought so too
09:58<andythenorth>I suspect you added the 1/8 version
09:58<Eddi|zuHause>it should be fairly simple
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10:01<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i think THIS_LENGTH_ADJUST_1 and THIS_LENGTH_ADJUST_2 have something to do with this
10:03<andythenorth>I'll look into it
10:04<andythenorth>ah
10:04<andythenorth>I think they're used by locomotives only at the moment
10:04<andythenorth>wagons have a hard coded set of adjusts
10:04<andythenorth>which is fine
10:04<Eddi|zuHause>hm, i think i can rework the concept to adjust length of locomotive
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>hang on a second
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: new layout at http://www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/tram.txt
10:10<andythenorth>so all 1/8 or 5/8 now?
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>yes
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>and the locomotive uses LENGTH_ADJUST_1 and 2
10:11<andythenorth>ok thanks
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>i think LENGTH_ADJUST_1 = 06 and LENGTH_ADJUST_2 = 05
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10:15<nidhoegger>hi
10:15<nidhoegger>im trying to build the dedicated server on a ubuntu server. but it keeps saying i got no lib lzma...ive installed according to the webpage liblzma-dev. error is still present
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>you need lzma2 (sometimes called xz)
10:16<nidhoegger>installed...
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>lzma and lzma2 are different things
10:17<nidhoegger>ive installed liblzma2 and liblzma-dev
10:17<nidhoegger>according to the wiki only liblzma-dev is neccessary
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>liblzma2-dev
10:17<nidhoegger>there is no such package
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>then it's xz-dev
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>or libxz-dev
10:18<@Alberth>liblzma.so.5 => /usr/lib64/liblzma.so.5 <-- is what my openttd binary says
10:18<nidhoegger>and libxz also doesnt exist
10:18<@Alberth>rpm -qf /usr/lib64/liblzma.so.5 <-- results in xz-libs-5.0.3-1.fc15.x86_64
10:18<@Alberth>but that's fedora, and not debian
10:19<Eddi|zuHause>on suse it's called xz-devel
10:20<nidhoegger>why does the dedicated server require a graphics set?
10:21<@Alberth>because it contains a lot more than pretty pictures
10:21<@Alberth>ie all meta data about vehicles etc etc
10:21<nidhoegger>kay
10:22*Alberth ponders whether we have a wiki about these topics
10:23<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that all appears to work :D
10:23<andythenorth>I know have to draw pictures
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: eery, right? :)
10:24<andythenorth>currently the trams are the earlier models, painted pink, with push-me-pull-you (one at each end)
10:24<andythenorth>not pretty
10:24<andythenorth>"ottd is dying"
10:24<andythenorth>"HEQS is not" :D
10:24<MNIM>http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=57133
10:24<MNIM>hmmmmh
10:25<MNIM>inventive hack
10:25<MNIM>could speed up water aircraft development considerably
10:27<@Alberth>water aircraft does not sound very useful to me
10:27<@Alberth>ie what are you going to do with it? fish?
10:28<andythenorth>Alberth: deliver supplies to remote camps
10:28<andythenorth>Alberth: what water-feature recently got added to trunk...? :)
10:29<@Alberth> /me is tycoon, /me does not care about remote camps :p
10:30<@Alberth>a smaller (muddy) airport on the other hand at land would be more useful in such cases
10:31<MNIM>andythenorth: isn't actually water feature, is clean GRF
10:32<andythenorth>MNIM: I was thinking about float planes landing on rivers
10:32<MNIM>delete water tiles, place newobject water tiles around intended airport to prevent flooding, place airport
10:32<nidhoegger>can i somehow manually join an IP address?
10:32<MNIM>oh, that
10:32<b_jonas>MNIM: wouldn't canal tiles work for that?
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10:33<MNIM>they would, but that would create an ugly border mismatch unless you expand the sprites to cover neighboring land
10:33<MNIM>which might or might not present clipping issues too.
10:34<@Alberth>nidhoegger: just type the ip instead of the hostname afaik
10:34<b_jonas>border mismatch? don't the canals look just like sea?
10:34<nidhoegger>thanks
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10:34<b_jonas>hmm, maybe at the airport
10:34<b_jonas>there would be canal shores
10:35<nidhoegger>working, thank you :D
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10:38<nidhoegger>is there a script or a option that keeps only 10 autosaves and removes the oldest ones?
10:38<nidhoegger>i dont want my server hdd to fill up with autosaves
10:38<@Yexo>there is a config setting for that
10:39<nidhoegger>where?
10:39<@Yexo>set keep_all_autosave to false
10:39<Rubidium>by default it keeps 16
10:39<@Yexo>and they should be named "autosave0.sav", "autosave1.sav" etc.
10:39<nidhoegger>thanks!
10:40<@Yexo>max_num_autosaves holds the number it keeps
10:40<nidhoegger>got it
10:40<nidhoegger>but it somehow ignores my max client setting...
10:40<nidhoegger>serverlist tells me server is 2 player only
10:40<@Yexo>it's max_clients in [network]
10:41<andythenorth>bbl
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10:41<nidhoegger>yes, i can set whatever i want, as soon as i run openttd -D it resets it to two
10:41<@Yexo>the deafult is 25
10:41<@Yexo>are you sure it's not twice in your config file or somethign like that?
10:41<nidhoegger>yes
10:42<nidhoegger>grepped it
10:42<nidhoegger>max_clients = 2
10:42<@Alberth>you stop OpenTTD before modifying the config file?
10:42<+glx>there's also max_players IIRC
10:42<nidhoegger>of course
10:42<@Yexo>there is no max_players anymore
10:42<@Yexo>max_companies, max_clients and max_spectators
10:43<+glx>ha right
10:43<nidhoegger>good, i think he got it now
10:43<nidhoegger>if the server crashes, is there a way to reload the latest backup?
10:43<+glx>-g
10:43<nidhoegger>thanks!
10:44<@Yexo>doesn't -g create a random game?
10:44<nidhoegger>no, looked it up
10:44<+glx>well -g /path/to/savegame
10:44<nidhoegger>-g [savegame] = Start new/save game immediately
10:44<frosch123>-G is random game :)
10:44<@Yexo>but for that you need to know what the savegam ename is
10:44<@Yexo>and you don't know that if the server crashed
10:48<nidhoegger>i set the autosaves max to 4...so in the worst case the last 4 years will be lost only
10:51<@Yexo>you can load a savegame via rcon, so if you give your friends the rcon password they can just try all 4 until they have the last version
10:54<nidhoegger>can i chat ingame?
10:55<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Multiplayer
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10:59<nidhoegger>thanks...enter is the only key i didnt try
10:59<nidhoegger>btw, if developers are here: MANY THANKS FOR THIS AWESOME GAME!
10:59<@Yexo>you've been talking to them ;)
10:59<@Yexo>thanks :)
11:01<nidhoegger>:D cool
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11:14<nidhoegger>cant i rename town in server game?
11:14<Eddi|zuHause>no, that is disabled
11:14<nidhoegger>thanks
11:16<@Yexo>only the server can rename towns. with a dedicated server there is no way to do it
11:22<nidhoegger>also not via rcon?
11:23<brundlefly>what do i hg clone from to get a server which speaks the 1.1.3 protocol?
11:23<brundlefly>i did 'http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/branches/1.1.hg', and 1.1.3 clients make protocol errors
11:24<@Yexo>nidhoegger: I don't think there is a console command to rename towns
11:24<@Yexo>brundlefly: you'd need exactly version 1.1.3, I don't think that's in hg at all
11:25<@Yexo>though you could try to get the correct version (not tip from that repo, but something earlier) and force the revision to 1.1.3
11:25<@Yexo>checking out the 1.1.3 tag from svn would be easier
11:25<brundlefly>i don't know how to svn
11:25<@Alberth>or download the source code of 1.1.3
11:25<blotek_>is there any website with sourcemods for openttd ?
11:26<@Yexo>blotek_: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=33
11:26<blotek_>ty ;)
11:26<andythenorth>hmm
11:26<andythenorth>only lead vehicle shows visual effect for RVs
11:26<brundlefly>i'm trying to preserve the history, but i'm using the tarball right now
11:27<@Alberth>how would the history of 1.1.3 be useful? you better develop in trunk
11:28<@Alberth>since any change in 1.1.3 makes it non-1.1.3 and thus not useful for anybody
11:28<brundlefly>i'm not going to distribute me changes anyway
11:29<brundlefly>and i can't develop from the trunk without losing the ability to talk to 1.1.3 clients
11:29<@Yexo>if you want to communicate to 1.1.3 clients you have very limited possibilities anyway
11:30<TrueBrain>the 1.1 HG already has the backports for a potential next release btw ;)
11:30<brundlefly>well i don't know what those limited possibilities are
11:30<TrueBrain>update to rev 'b81203d3886e' to get 1.1.3
11:30<brundlefly>okay, thanks
11:30<@Yexo>why are you so set on not distributing your changes, and what exactly do you want to change?
11:31<TrueBrain>"hg log" shows you the ogs
11:33<brundlefly>i doubt anyone would want the changes. all i'm going to be doing is playing around with admin console things
11:33<@Yexo>that should be safe
11:33<@Yexo>anyway, if those changes are useful for you, wouldn't they also be useful for other people?
11:34<brundlefly>if others want them, all they have to do is ask
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11:37<@Alberth>which is a bit hard if you don't tell about them
11:37<brundlefly>you know now
11:37<brundlefly>and they'll be on bitbucket soon
11:37<brundlefly>i'm just playing around. no big deal
11:37<@Alberth>I am not 'they' :)
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11:54<brundlefly>b81203d3886e still won't talk to 1.1.3 clients
11:54<brundlefly>so i'll use the tarball i guess
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11:58<TrueBrain>subversion is always best to do for stable clients
11:58<TrueBrain>(or tarballs)
11:59<TrueBrain>mercurial clients need ... love
11:59<TrueBrain>(they do not have a 'tag' clone)
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12:03<brundlefly>why is it that the protocol is so volatile?
12:05<@Yexo>the protocol is not, but every client has the complete gamestate
12:05<@Yexo>the server only sends commands to the client, not changes to the state
12:05<@Yexo>that means that when the main gameloop is changed the compatibility breaks
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>brundlefly: the protocol relies on the fact that all connected clients calculate everything game relevant in the exact same way
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise you'd need to transfer several MB per second
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>which means nobody could play multiplayer that isn't on a 100Mbit line
12:06<TrueBrain>and stable clients are forked seperately. So if you want to join stable servers, you need the source from a validated stable :P
12:06<brundlefly>is that the same way quake does it?
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>no, quake does something entirely different
12:07<@Yexo>quake is no way comparable
12:07<brundlefly>so why does ottd use more bandwidth than quake?
12:07<TrueBrain>lol
12:07<TrueBrain>what a question :)
12:08<TrueBrain>why is OpenTTD executable smaller than the Quake executable? :)
12:08<nidhoegger>is there a way to open a chat window so i can see past messages?
12:08<@Yexo>did you measure how much bandwidth openttd uses?
12:08<@Yexo>nidhoegger: you can see them in the console (press the key left to 1 on your keyboard), otherwise no
12:09<nidhoegger>thanks
12:09<brundlefly>s//so why would ottd use more bandwidth than quake if it did things the quake way?/
12:09<@Alberth>we have a LOT of gamestate
12:10<@Yexo>the gamestate in quake is basically: position, direction, health, some ammo for every player
12:10<@Yexo>that's not a lot
12:10<@Yexo>the gamestate in openttd is easily several mb for normal maps
12:10<brundlefly>oh, okay
12:11<@Yexo>the map alone is 2.4 mb for a 512*512 map
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>and then you don't have any vehicles or stations yet
12:11<@Yexo>if you want to sent that every game tick (when it changes) you need 70megabyte / second
12:12<@Yexo>add in vehicles and stations and even a gigabit connection is not fast enough
12:12<brundlefly>why would you need to send the entire map each frame? why wouldn't a diff do?
12:12<@Alberth>you forgot about the industries & houses :)
12:12<@Yexo>a diff could do, but that means keeping the old map so you could actually diff
12:13<brundlefly>well doesn't the client keep the map?
12:13<@Yexo>a diff not only needs to send the changed bytes but also some metadata
12:13<@Yexo>brundlefly: yes, it does
12:13<@Yexo>that's why we currently don't send changes to the map but only the commands
12:13<@Alberth>brundlefly: useful for sending a dif from the server :p
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>brundlefly: you need two maps to make a diff
12:13<brundlefly>oh right, lol
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>brundlefly: and the diff may get larger than the actual map
12:14<brundlefly>but why not a diff queue?
12:14<brundlefly>and send a "keyframe" when a client falls behind and the queue becomes to big?
12:15<@Yexo>a keyframe means an actual savegame, which can be several mb big
12:15<brundlefly>well that gets sent when a client connects, right?
12:15<@Yexo>which for a lot of players still means multiple seconds downloading, so either pausing the game for multiple seconds or being behind for a few second again
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>brundlefly: yes, and connecting takes several seconds
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>brundlefly: so unless you want the keyframe to be sent only once per minute...
12:17<brundlefly>like i said, only when a client falls out of sync
12:17<@Alberth>and do one frame / minute :)
12:17<@Yexo>brundlefly: you mean as in "too slow" or "desync error"?
12:17<brundlefly>so how does the ottd way prevent a client falling out of sync and needing a "keyframe"?
12:17<@Alberth>brundlefly: yeah, but once he is, he will not get up-to-date
12:17<@Alberth>since downloading takes too much time
12:17<@Yexo>brundlefly: by executing the same commands on both the server and all clients
12:18<Eddi|zuHause>brundlefly: "needing a keyframe" is done by kicking out the player, and he has to rejoin
12:18<brundlefly>then it sounds like we're using different terms for the same thing then
12:19<@Yexo>hence my question: what exactly do you mean by "getting out of sync"?
12:19<brundlefly>i mean getting so far behind the server than the server decides to stop maintain the old diffs for that client
12:20<@Yexo>that means the server would have to keep diffs, which it currently doesn't do
12:20<@Yexo>the reason for that being too much bandwith
12:21<nidhoegger>where does the dedicated server store the autosaves? its not in .openttd
12:21<nidhoegger>wait, it is
12:21<@Yexo>.openttd/save/autosave
12:21<nidhoegger>my error
12:21<nidhoegger>thanks!
12:21<brundlefly>i'm not seeing how the server maintaining a diff queue in memory would take up bandwidth
12:22<@Yexo>the problem is not maintaining the diff queue, the problem is sending that diff queue to every client
12:23<brundlefly>i wouldn't send the entire queue each frame, just the most recent diff each frame
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12:23<brundlefly>as a video codec would do
12:23<@Yexo>but every diff can easily be 1 megabyte
12:23<@Yexo>and there are 30 frames each second
12:23<@Yexo>you do the math :)
12:24<brundlefly>how could a diff be 1M but a command can't be?
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>brundlefly: take for example tree growth
12:24<Eddi|zuHause>brundlefly: it touches a large part of the map each tick, not confined to any given region
12:24<@Yexo>brundlefly: because there are a lot of things done automatically that don't need commands
12:24<@Yexo>like vehicles moving, tree growth, animation etc.
12:24<brundlefly>oh, i see
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>every 2.5 seconds, tree growth may have changed all tiles on the map
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>so at least every 2.5 seconds you cause as much as one full savegame of diff-queues
12:27<Eddi|zuHause>(actually i lied, it's more like 8 seconds)
12:28<@Yexo>animated houses / industries can change there animated state every tick
12:28<@Yexo>or maybe every 4th tick for houses
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12:45<TrueBrain>brundlefly: btw, your initial assumption that OepnTTD uses more bandwidth than Quake is wrong :p
12:46<TrueBrain>Quake is between 5 KB/s and 15 KB/s, depending on a few factors
12:46<TrueBrain>OpenTTD is around 1.5 KB/s
12:46<brundlefly>i phrased my initial question wrong
12:46<brundlefly>see the sed command below
12:46<TrueBrain>your sed was cloned from nothing, so it made even less sense :D
12:46<brundlefly>your sed-fu is weak
12:46<TrueBrain>I am a sane person, yeah ;) :P
12:47<TrueBrain>hihi :D
12:47<TrueBrain>anyway, your question is similar to the question we used to get a lot: why doesn't OpenTTD uses UDP for its gamestate! :P
12:47<TrueBrain>I always loved that question :)
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12:47<Eddi|zuHause>a"<TrueBrain> I am a sane person" <-- hahaha :p
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12:47<brundlefly>i understand why you wouldn't want to deal with udp
12:48<TrueBrain>has nothing to do with wanting; Quake is from nature a completely different game than OpenTTD :)
12:48<TrueBrain>the information is very different
12:48<TrueBrain>if in Quake a few packets of the position of a player are not received, nobody cares
12:49<TrueBrain>I always wonder why people compare OpenTTD in network with FPS
12:49<brundlefly>i mean wanting to re-implement tcp atop udp
12:49<TrueBrain>TCP on UDP == TCP :)
12:49<TrueBrain>such a huge overhead for nothing :P
12:49<TrueBrain>(many have tried, many more have failed :))
12:49<brundlefly>probably becuause quake is the only game protocol i'm passably familiar with
12:49<TrueBrain>and many people are
12:49<TrueBrain>which surprises me tbh :)
12:50<brundlefly>i can build a 1.1.3 speaking server from the tarball
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12:50<TrueBrain>btw: http://wiki.openttd.org/Network_Protocol
12:50<TrueBrain>explains a lot why and how things are done in OpenTTD
12:50<brundlefly>but when i add an .hg dir, make does some shenanigans so that it can't speak 1.1.3 anymore
12:50<brundlefly>how do it fix that?
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12:51<TrueBrain>if you have the 1.1.3 source tarball, you should be having a .. what is the file called ...
12:51<TrueBrain>.ottdrev?
12:51<brundlefly>it looks the same before and after
12:51<@Yexo>I think it'll keep working if you just do hg init, but just test to make sure
12:51<TrueBrain>ah , lol, hg takes precendence :D
12:51<TrueBrain>findversion.sh checks first svn, then git, then hg, then .ottdrev :D
12:51<+michi_cc>brundlefly: By using a subversion or git checkout as the config script will also try to get the hg from your new repo.
12:51<@Yexo>I'd say that's the sane order
12:52<brundlefly>src/rev.cpp also looks the same before and after
12:52<TrueBrain>Yexo: it is; just unexpected :D
12:52<TrueBrain>brundlefly: but that brings us to the main question again: why do you want to do that? It only makes sense if you want to modify 1.1.3, which you shouldn't be doing :D
12:53<brundlefly>so i can play with the admin interface
12:53<TrueBrain>why can't you otherwise?
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>mäh... no matter how flexible your track geometry is wrt offered switch types, you immediatly find a situation where it's not enough
12:53<TrueBrain>if with the admin interface you mean the admin port, it just works?
12:53<brundlefly>i want my changes to run on my server
12:53<TrueBrain>ah; officially OpenTTD doesn't support those actions :)
12:54<TrueBrain>you most likely will claim they cause no potential problem, but we might receive bug reports that a client crashes or something (should never happen, but okay :P)
12:54<TrueBrain>sadly, in Open Source, we are rather limited in avoiding such problems, so a ./configure --help should help you enough
12:55<TrueBrain>just use with EXTREME care
12:55<brundlefly>i did ./configure --revision=1.1.3 but it still wouldn't talk 1.1.3
12:55<brundlefly>i probably should have said that
12:56<TrueBrain>it does help :P
12:56<TrueBrain>and to my knowledge, that works
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13:28<blotek>YACD working ?
13:28<blotek>i got errors while trying to apply patch ...
13:28<Eddi|zuHause>then you didn't get the right revision for the patch
13:36<@Alberth>using tortoiseSVN?
13:36<@Alberth>(or some other patch utility that does not understand git patches)
13:37<blotek>standard bash patch command
13:38<@Alberth>bash has no 'patch', but close enough :)
13:38<blotek>u know what i mean ;p
13:38<@Alberth>then your revision is most likely wrong
13:39<blotek>i mean
13:39<blotek>can i apply it to actual version (1.1.3) or only testing releases?
13:39<@Alberth>by the looks of the file name yacd_v2_3_r22532.patch you need r22532
13:40<@Alberth>not a release (perhaps a nightly, not sure), just a random trunk version probably
13:41<@Alberth>blotek: patching releases is very non-useful, as there is nothing useful you can do with it afterwards
13:42<@Alberth>and all things you CAN do with it can be done with a trunk version too
13:42<@Yexo>blotek: if you patch 1.1.3 it's not 1.1.3 anymore. All clients would also need the patched version, so you might as well distribute a patched trunk
13:43<@Alberth>which is much easier in keeping up-to-date for merging
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23066 /trunk/src/lang/ (turkish.txt unfinished/tamil.txt welsh.txt):
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: tamil - 23 changes by aswn
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: turkish - 13 changes by niw3
13:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: welsh - 1 changes by kazzie
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14:39<b_jonas>wow, UKRS gives me such a large choice of cars carrying goods already
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14:41<b_jonas>fast and slow ones
14:41<b_jonas>but how can I tell which cars have continuous brake?
14:42<@Alberth>doesn't the documentation of the set tell you that?
14:43<b_jonas>do you mean like this: http://www.pikkarail.com/ttdp/ukrs/stock.htm
14:44<b_jonas>no, even that doesn't tell clearly
14:44<b_jonas>it would be best if the in-game interface told me
14:45<Eddi|zuHause>well, it's possible to give an explanation text in the buy menu, it's the newgrfs job to actually do that
14:46<b_jonas>yes
14:46<b_jonas>some newgrf does do that
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>well. then talk to the author of the newgrf
14:48<@Yexo>b_jonas: there is no concept in openttd of "continuous brake" for cars
14:48<b_jonas>Yexo: does it depend only on the engine?\
14:48<@Yexo>if UKRS offers that, it's something custom done by that newgrf
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14:49<Elu>my guess is that cars with it don't require the train to have a brake van
14:49<@Yexo><b_jonas> it would be best if the in-game interface told me <- I was explaining why that is not possible to do for openttd, although the newgrf can supply some extra text there
14:49-!-Elu is now known as Elukka
14:49<b_jonas>oh, right
14:49<b_jonas>but istr the japanese trains newgrf does exactly that: adds extra text about continuous brake
14:51<Elukka>yeah, newgrfs can do that
14:51<Elukka>it's obviously up to the creator of the newgrf to do that though
14:53<b_jonas>I think for this line I'll buy a train with a fast and expensive engine and one with a slow but cheap engine and see which one works better
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14:56<b_jonas>or maybe not
14:57<b_jonas>I'll do that experiment with the bulk cargos instead
15:00<b_jonas>ah, look
15:00<b_jonas>so UKRS implements this feature that when a train is not running it has a lowered running cost?
15:00<b_jonas>wow
15:06<Elukka>NARS and 2cc do too
15:06<Elukka>it's a pretty nice feature
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15:32<MNIM>you can have a lot of 'exhibits' with that feature :D
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15:34<b_jonas>for exhibits you explicitly stop the train which stops the maintenance cost even with no newgrf
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15:46<MNIM>oh, I thought that wasn't standard
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15:56<b_jonas>ah, and apparently UKRS allows me to run short trains without a brake van, but longer trains using the same engine and cars require a brake van.
15:56<b_jonas>just to further complicate the rules
16:02<andythenorth>:)
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16:02<andythenorth>adding a single vehicle to HEQS takes a whole day
16:02<andythenorth>:o
16:02<MNIM>only a day?
16:06<@Yexo>b_jonas: no image trying to code an AI. You at least can read the provided readme.txt or the website
16:06<@Yexo>*now
16:06<b_jonas>Yexo: yeah
16:06<b_jonas>maybe rules for brake vans and tenders should be supported by the core
16:07<b_jonas>even if not used in the default grf set
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16:24<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23067 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#4812]: updating the group statistics got more strict checks, so there was some trouble moving a vehicles and groups from one company to another
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16:29<andythenorth>`hmm
16:29<z-MaTRiX>hey
16:30<andythenorth>I can't get my tram to show correct capacity in vehicle menu
16:30<andythenorth>consist is: engine + 15 wagons with same ID
16:30<andythenorth>wagons have 15t capacity by default
16:31<andythenorth>last vehicle in consist gets 7t capacity using cb36
16:31<andythenorth>if I handle cargo FF with a chain handling cb36, I can get something, but not correct result
16:32<andythenorth>does an articulated road vehicle trailing part have a cargo subtype set for buy menu chain?
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16:36<andythenorth>I need to fix all the trams in fact
16:36<andythenorth>:)
16:36<andythenorth>frosch123: any suggestions? ^
16:36<andythenorth>I can explain issue better if that helps
16:36<andythenorth>maybe I'm missing a trick somewhere
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16:41<frosch123>when you buy a vehicle, subtypes are all zero
16:42<frosch123>i guess your issue is that you try to detect the last part using some variable
16:42<frosch123>like position in consist
16:42<andythenorth>yup
16:42<frosch123>but that is not going to work in purchase list
16:42<andythenorth>precisely
16:42<andythenorth>I considered using a different ID for the vehicle, but then I have to rewrite all templates :P
16:42<andythenorth>(e.g. last vehicle)
16:42<frosch123>usualy i suggest to make all trailing parts return zero capacity in purchase list, and return the complete capacity with the first vehicle
16:43<andythenorth>this would be the best fix for all HEQS trams
16:43<andythenorth>they all have the issue to some extent
16:43<frosch123>if all vehicles including the front have the same id you are screwed :p
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16:43<andythenorth>nope
16:43<andythenorth>should be ok :)
16:44<andythenorth>so use cb36 on all tram locomotives I guess
16:44<frosch123>just make sure to set the action 0 capacity property to a non-zero value. then you can do everything with cb 36 you like
16:44<frosch123>(if you set the property to zero, the cb will not be called)
16:45*andythenorth will experiments
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17:15<andythenorth>frosch123: if cb36 is used, are all properties reset to 1?
17:15<andythenorth>unless explicitly defined?
17:16<andythenorth>(more likely a mistake by me) :P
17:17<andythenorth>hmm
17:18<andythenorth>if I use cb36 to adjust capacity, I also get weight 1t, speed 6mph
17:18*andythenorth ponders
17:19<@Yexo>that's definitely an error by you
17:19<andythenorth>what fun :(
17:20<andythenorth>what could cause it?
17:20*andythenorth examines
17:20<MNIM>well, you can, obviously :P
17:22<andythenorth>hmm
17:27*andythenorth finds the answer
17:37<andythenorth>hmm
17:38<andythenorth>if I set the default cargo to GOOD(s), cb36 has a rather confused understanding of what to do
17:38<andythenorth>all capacities come out multiplied by 0.5
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17:40<andythenorth>same if default is mail
17:41<andythenorth>is the correct answer to double all capacities?
17:42<andythenorth>frosch123: ^ I think this is a known issue?
17:43<@Yexo>yes, see http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/images/grfwiki/1/12/CargoMagic.dot.png
17:43<@Yexo>after CB36 the capacity multipliers are applied
17:43<andythenorth>oh poop
17:43<andythenorth>I can't think of a solution :P
17:44<@Yexo>don't se mail or goods as default
17:45<andythenorth>there's nothing else I can rely on :(
17:45<@Yexo>that is indeed a problem with the current newgrf specs
17:45<andythenorth>this vehicle refits to a limited range
17:45*andythenorth explores cb15
17:46<andythenorth>not ideal
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17:50<andythenorth>I can rely on mail being in most games
17:50<andythenorth>it's quite pathological to remove it
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17:56<andythenorth>oh FFS
17:56<andythenorth>this makes no sense at all
17:56<supermop>mail?
17:57<supermop>whats going on?
18:00<frosch123>wow, that cargo magic image is only a year old now
18:00<frosch123>i thought it existed way longer :o
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18:09<nidhoegger>ive got a single question left: im running a dedicated server since today and a few friends and i got a very profitable network. will the money variable get an overrun if it gets too much?
18:09<@Yexo>no
18:09<nidhoegger>cool
18:10<@Yexo>it can hold up to 9.22e18 and even after that it won't overflow
18:10*andythenorth finds the bugs in his own code
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18:22<andythenorth>goodnight - and thanks :)
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