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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-11-01

---Logopened Tue Nov 01 00:00:43 2011
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05:19<Terkhen>good morning
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05:55<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 1024**2/64/60/60
05:55<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 4.55111111111
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06:02<Terkhen>meh, they killed google reader
06:06<Borgso>Didnt they merge it into Google+?
06:07<Terkhen>well, only the "share" part
06:07<Terkhen>which is why I used it
06:15<@planetmaker>but google+ is no option as long as they claim to enforce a real name policy
06:18<Rubidium>how can they even enforce such a policy?
06:18<Terkhen>also, spamming google reader with a lot of stupid things from internet is different than spamming google+
06:18<Terkhen>and IIRC they stopped doing that, but I'm not sure
06:18<Rubidium>how can they disprove that you are normally called planetmaker by your friends?
06:18<@planetmaker>Rubidium, enforce or whatever. They seemed to have canceled accounts on the suspicion of non-real names
06:19<@planetmaker>Well. In a certain part of the world I am.
06:19<Rubidium>just transcribe it in Katakana and see whether they make an issue of it ;)
06:20<@planetmaker>Terkhen, but my understanding is that with google+ you could add those people interested in that to the 'spam me with article info 'circle'
06:20<@planetmaker>hehe, Rubidium :-)
06:20<@planetmaker>I guess I'll rather become Arno Nonymus ;-)
06:21<@planetmaker>easier to type for me :-P
06:21<Terkhen>planetmaker: I have not checked google+ much, but to me it seems that the internet stupidities would appear in the main page for those people, mixed with all the other stuff
06:22<@planetmaker>I don't quite no. As I'm not on google+ I didn't check it out in detail either.
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07:25<Starhero>What is the major thing that lags OTTD?
07:25<Starhero>Seems i start a map..and eventually i get lag...
07:25<Starhero>I load the save lag for a bit
07:26<b_jonas>I haven't seen any lag in ottd so far
07:26<Starhero>That is what I thought...but i shot them down with the console and I still get lag.
07:26<b_jonas>(but then I'm using a nice fast computer hardware)
07:26<Starhero>So am i
07:26<@Yexo>do you get constant lag or every now and then?
07:26<Starhero>quadcore 3 ghz
07:26<@Yexo>how big is the map, and how many vehicles are there in total?
07:26<Starhero>I dont think gfx card matter haha but i have a 46se
07:26<@Yexo>the "quadcore" bit of that is irrelevant, for major calculations openttd only uses a single core
07:27<b_jonas>Starhero: also enough ram, and no other tasks that use the cpu and ram heavily?
07:27<Starhero>4 gigs of ram ..kinda lacking on that front
07:27<@Yexo>b_jonas: ram is kind-of irrelevant, seeing how little ram openttd acutally uses
07:27<Starhero>also i know to close tasks..I even set ottd to high priority
07:28<@Yexo>Starhero: how many vehicles are there on the map?
07:28<@planetmaker>my FF uses about 10x as much as openttd does
07:28<@planetmaker>and what's the map size?
07:28<@planetmaker>uh... as big as one can get.
07:28<Starhero>I know...
07:29<Starhero>I like it :P
07:29<@planetmaker>Then only a few hundret vehicles might give you a lag
07:29<@planetmaker>especially if you use ships without many buoys
07:29<Starhero>ahh so it is pathfinding
07:29<b_jonas>the classic ttd map is 256x256, right?
07:29<@planetmaker>not only. But it's one part. Yes, it is
07:30<@planetmaker>and it has very cheap, very bad path finder
07:30<b_jonas>from my experience, it's not only the vehicles but also the zoomed out graphics that can cause ttd/ttdpatch to lag
07:31<b_jonas>also it lags at startup
07:31<Starhero>oh i stay zoomed in as much as possible
07:31<Starhero>but if the map and veh. is the lag...then there goes my goal of trasnporting everything on this map :'(
07:33<Starhero>I figured it might have been NARS"s "Use fine scale graphics" option so test..I did something crazy...ready? I CHANGED parameters WHILE THE GAME WAS RUNNING! OH NOES!...i backed up my save and READ THE BIG RED BOX FIRST.
07:34<Starhero>ofc had to edit cfg for tha
07:34<Starhero>is there a way of seeing FPS or compute fps?
07:36<@planetmaker>no. But there'll not be more fps than 1/0.03
07:38<Starhero>Yeah just wanted a way of gauging my lag..and what options could change it..
07:38<Starhero>anything but lowering my map size :'(
07:39<b_jonas>Starhero: using fewer vehicles
07:39<Starhero>not so easy.
07:39<b_jonas>and less ships
07:39<Starhero>but will try
07:39<Starhero>i don't use boats or planes at all
07:39<Starhero>nor is anyone else it seems.
07:39<b_jonas>planes aren't a problem
07:39<b_jonas>they don't really need a pathfinder because there aren't areas they can't fly over
07:39<Starhero>AI or players..(this WAS multi player but everyone left so i went offline for a bit.
07:41<@planetmaker>less vehicles. Esp. less ships. Less junctions for trains. No industry or vehicle NewGRFs. Switching off "full details" and "full animation"
07:41<@planetmaker>reducing the window size you use
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07:59<TrueBrain>NOTICE: now has a valid certificate; you no longer should be getting nagscreens from CACert when connecting over a secured layer to any of our services ;)
08:00<Rubidium>I already never got those nagscreens
08:00<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you would be one of the few. CACert should be in nobodies valid CA root, as they explicitly tell that they don't want to be there :)
08:01<TrueBrain>so your distro/browser is in violation ;) :P
08:03<Rubidium>where do they explicitly tell that? They even have a license for the root key
08:07<TrueBrain>the last audit they got, they stopped midway with the remark they don't want to be a valid root CA just yet
08:08<TrueBrain>any inclusion by any distroy/browser is optional, and purely on their own idea, as CACert still didn't do the required Audit
08:09<TrueBrain>and CACert is doing the mozilla audit atm, which is a very very slow process
08:10<TrueBrain> and and their maillist for more information
08:10<TrueBrain>it has to be strongly noted here that CACert did not pass ANY audit as of far, and should NOT be a valid RootCA :) But okay .. :)
08:15<CIA-6>OpenTTD: yexo * r23078 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r23077): default ships carrying passengers and oil were suddenly only able to carry coal
08:23<Ammler>TrueBrain: why do you use wildcard cert but still have all ssl websites stay in one home (secure)
08:23<TrueBrain>Ammler: because people tend to type
08:24<TrueBrain>and SANs are very expensive
08:25<Ammler>but is also valid else it wouldn't work
08:25<TrueBrain>Alternative Naming, the certificates we used before
08:25<Ammler>(the forward to secure)
08:25<TrueBrain>exactly; that is why we have a wildcard
08:25<Ammler>but then why forward to secure?
08:26<TrueBrain>because we do
08:27<Ammler>ok, that's a reason too :-P
08:28<TrueBrain>yeah; something we can talk long about, or short, but it just is :)
08:28<Ammler>well, for me it looks more complicated than easy to setup that way
08:29<TrueBrain>the mistake you make here, is that this setup is already in place
08:29<TrueBrain>and if we would be to make any chance, it would take a lot of time
08:29<Eddi|zuHause><TrueBrain> Ammler: because people tend to type <-- that may very well be an automatic process, like "user typed http, let's try https first"
08:29<Ammler>ok, true :-D
08:29<TrueBrain>a general rule: if it aint broken, don't fix it :)
08:30<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: long live Firefox plugins ;)
08:30<Ammler>the rule of lazy sysops and managers without money
08:30<TrueBrain>Ammler: holds in general; and if you are going to fix it, make sure you have a test setup first
08:31<TrueBrain>in modern IT, it is impossible to keep up with all the new stuff
08:31<TrueBrain>if you would try, you would never maintain, but always work to improve (by your suggestion, that would be required :P)
08:31<TrueBrain>as there is always something new, somethng better, something ...
08:32<TrueBrain>a stable system is most often much better than a 'correct' system, by what-ever definition ;)
08:32<MNIM>ubuntu doesn't have long term support releases for nothing
08:33<TrueBrain>MNIM: by wording of Ammler, Ubuntu has either lazy sysops or don't have money :D
08:33<TrueBrain>hihihihi :D
08:33<TrueBrain>now I am just teasing Ammler :P
08:33<MNIM>you mean companies who use ubuntu?
08:33<MNIM>probably, lol
08:33<TrueBrain>no, Ubuntu itself :P They have a long term support release :P
08:33<Ammler>MNIM: long term support is the opposite of what we speak here
08:34<TrueBrain>it has old software, not up-to-date FHS, ... ;)
08:34<TrueBrain>which is exactly what we talk about :)
08:34<Rubidium>TrueBrain: "long term" for ~5% of the relesae
08:34<TrueBrain>they only include new versions if security is compromised
08:34<TrueBrain>so they too work on the "if it aint broken, dont fix it" rule ;)
08:34<MNIM>yeah, even it's standard, 'up to date' releases features old software, true
08:34<Ammler>TrueBrain: they fix a running system
08:35<TrueBrain>Ammler: that suggests our https schema is broken?
08:35<TrueBrain>as it is not
08:35<TrueBrain>just not what you want it to be :)
08:35<Ammler>no, never said it is broken
08:35<MNIM>but really, would it hurt to have an up-to-date gimp in ubuntu?
08:35<TrueBrain>fix is the inverse of broken, is it not? :D
08:35<TrueBrain>MNIM: yes
08:35<TrueBrain>it would
08:35<MNIM>or a current openttd?
08:35<Ammler>not really TrueBrain
08:35<MNIM>or, *gasp* a modern firefox!?
08:36<TrueBrain>Ammler: without joking, I am just pointing out that it is better to have things stable, then have things 'up to date' to what ever standard :)
08:36<Ammler>how else can you fix a working system?
08:36<TrueBrain>which any sane sysop does, lazy or not :)
08:36<@planetmaker>a working system doesn't need fixing. It needs changes or updates
08:36<@planetmaker>(if it does)
08:36<MNIM>truebrain: I don't even mean unstable releases.
08:36<TrueBrain>MNIM: 'stable' is such a tricky word :)
08:37<MNIM>well, true :P
08:37<MNIM>but if you were giving attention to that, you might as well just run windows 2000
08:37<TrueBrain>yes :)
08:41<Ammler>TrueBrain: btw. is the cert free, never found other than startssl for free
08:42<@planetmaker>it's not
08:42<z-MaTRiX>sed can filter a chatlog and note replacements have been made
08:42<z-MaTRiX>sed -En 's/(.)\1{3,}/\1/g;T ex;s/.*/c:&/;:ex;s/(.{3,})\1{2,}//g;T ey;s/.*/w:&/;:ey;p' <<< 'lala!'$'\n''laaaaalaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!'$'\n''la la la la la!'
08:43<TrueBrain>z-MaTRiX: seriously, who is your audiance with all those seds and bash scripts?
08:44<z-MaTRiX>well i only use linux, and like to do things with bash, and coreutils
08:44<TrueBrain>but why share it with us? :P
08:44<z-MaTRiX>you like windows i guess
08:45<TrueBrain>lol; bold conclusion
08:45<TrueBrain>so if you don't appreciate your endless seds and bash scripts, you have to like Windows ...
08:45<@planetmaker>I mostly guess that TB likes a high SNR
08:46<Eddi|zuHause>"for some people it's a regexp, for others it's the longest smilie of the world"
08:46<TrueBrain>anyway, z-MaTRiX, what I meant to say: can you please stop with useless seds and bash scripts unelss they are somewhat related? :)
08:46<z-MaTRiX>well it can be used to parse redundant data from a chatlog for example
08:47<TrueBrain>can anyone in this channel raise his hand if he things that is useful, or trusts the above sed in any way? :)
08:47<@planetmaker>s/ngs/nks/ ;-)
08:47<TrueBrain>planetmaker: oops :D
08:48<Ammler>TrueBrain: good example for your speach "better stable as up-to-date" was noai.o.o :-P
08:48<TrueBrain>and nice pun planetmaker :D
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>i found that last sed useful :p
08:48<TrueBrain>Ammler: huh?
08:48<@planetmaker>hehe :-) But I'll keep my hands down, failing to see context
08:49<TrueBrain>planetmaker: yeah, I hope z-MaTRiX got the hint ;) :P
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09:22<Starhero>is the absolute latest ottd precompiled? Or would i have to fight with a C++ compiler..and header files..and *screams in agony and asks why ppl use C++ when C# ...or HELL JAVA...can make more sense and have the same power*
09:22<Starhero>Key word..."can"
09:24<Rubidium>Starhero: there is no "latest"
09:25<Rubidium>there are at least 4, of which 3 are precompiled but you can reach only 2 precompiled versions
09:26<@Yexo>hmm, 4?
09:26<@Yexo>stable, nightly, head and?
09:28<Rubidium>1.1 head
09:28<Rubidium>(although you might add testing as well)
09:28<Rubidium>which would make it 5
09:28<@Yexo>I did think about testing, but we currenctly don't have that
09:28<Rubidium>and resp. 4 and 3
09:29<@Yexo>Starhero: you'll find very informative
09:30<@planetmaker>" when C# ...or HELL JAVA...can make more sense and have the same power*" <-- I'm sure this statement can be backed-up by facts ;-)
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09:31<@planetmaker>especially in the context of cross-platform portability ;-)
09:31<@planetmaker>and speed
09:32<Rubidium>not to mention that porting 300.000 lines of code is not something I fancy doing
09:33<Rubidium>especially when it means you can't copy the majority of the code directly
09:33<@planetmaker>Well, the forum just has a new guy who wants to write all this stuff from scratch. So volunteers are abundant ;-)
09:33<@Yexo>the forum has such a guy every few months
09:33<@Yexo>the resuls however...
09:34<@planetmaker>yup. That's why volunteers are abundant ;-)
09:34<@planetmaker>results... that's something different... did they volunteer to produce results?
09:36<@planetmaker>3D! xml!
09:36<TrueBrain>(did that make me look really cool and knowing?)
09:36<TrueBrain>darn :(
09:37<TrueBrain><3 planetmaker
09:38<TrueBrain>Starhero: and I guess it depends on your definition of the word 'sense' .. to me C# makes no sense at all .. :D
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>we should have a 3Dxml!
09:38<@Yexo>TrueBrain: you forgot so say it will solve all problems with openttd
09:39<@planetmaker>only those problems? :-(
09:39<@planetmaker>I thought it'd bring world peace. Finally
09:41<TrueBrain>that 2012 will do
09:41<TrueBrain>or 2038
09:41<TrueBrain>or 2011
09:41<TrueBrain>well, pick a date
09:41<b_jonas>also, real time! oriented! paradigm!
09:42<@planetmaker> <-- date doesn't matter. Just patch time appropriately
09:43<TrueBrain>if you can't fix it
09:43<TrueBrain>go back in time
09:43<@planetmaker>yup :-P
09:43<TrueBrain>and if you can't win: cheat!
09:43<TrueBrain>now off for a meeting
09:44<@planetmaker>best card in that game is "Your Parents Never Met" ;-)
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10:13<Eddi|zuHause>mäh, i should really start learning for my next exam
10:15<Rubidium>can't you just pass it without learning?
10:15<Rubidium>or didn't you take enough colleges?
10:24<Eddi|zuHause>i did... 5 years ago...
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12:18<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23079 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r23077): Retain original behaviour in a silly corner case, which saves us making the specs even more convoluted.
12:20<Starhero> i just saw a youtube vid where a guy had a mod called..cargodist...but I dont see that in the content..How many other mods are there that are not in bananas?
12:20<frosch123>there are different types of "mods"
12:21<frosch123>bananas holds only NewGRFs which are easy to install, and usable with stable versions
12:21<Eddi|zuHause>what you search for are "patches", see:
12:21<frosch123>other "mods" are not compatible to stable openttd versions, and require advanced user skills
12:23<@planetmaker>or even programming skills :-)
12:23<Starhero>Advanced as in gameplay or installing? As long as nothing is actually a COMPILE..I can move files around edit crap in files..I just HATE HATE HATE compiling C++ crap...I am a C# dev. and normally when you get source for C# you can click compile and have a few easy to fix problems or non at all..I have NEVER compiled something that I haven
12:23<Starhero>made with C++ that has worked right
12:23<@planetmaker>you said so before. It won't change a thing, though
12:24<@planetmaker>(and it's your loss)
12:24<frosch123>patches involve compiling, unless there are precompiled binaries
12:24<frosch123>which are only available in rare cases
12:24<Starhero> there a guide on setting up an eviroment?
12:24<Starhero>I would like to try some..
12:24*planetmaker wonders though what's difficult about installing a few libs and typing ./configure && make
12:25<Terkhen>Starhero: compiling C# with MSVC is identical to compiling C++ with MSVC
12:25<Starhero>but 99% of the time i can't wrap my head around w/e settings I need to get crap to compile that OBVIOUSLY compiles on others computers...
12:25<Terkhen>so I don't understand the hate against C++ :P
12:26<@planetmaker>Starhero, if it works for others and not for you I'd take my bet where the problem is ;-)
12:26<Terkhen>you will run into the same problems with C# as soon as you want to use some code that is not included in the default library
12:26<Starhero>Besides the actual syntex? Dot operator (and slight cross platform) FTW
12:26<Terkhen>cross platform? did I miss something?
12:27<@planetmaker>haha :-)
12:27<Starhero>mono? I mean you still can make some things on linux/unix
12:27<Starhero>sure gui isn't that great...
12:27<Terkhen>did you try it?
12:27<@planetmaker>and android? iOS? FreeBSD?
12:27<Terkhen>to my knowledge, mono has a windows version too
12:28<Starhero>Didn't I say slight?
12:28<Terkhen>that makes me suspicious of the feasability of porting stuff from "true" C# to mono
12:28<Terkhen>anyways, your issues are not language related, they are related to how projects with lots of dependencies are built
12:28<Starhero>Honestly..I am not as knowledgable as I wish to be in pretty much anything...
12:28<Terkhen>OpenTTD has a openttd_useful package that makes things simpler, just follow the tutorial on the wiki
12:29<Starhero>that is the only ...decent thing I have made
12:29<Starhero>with help...
12:29<Terkhen>or, if you can't be bothered to compile, download the binaries
12:29<Terkhen>both cargodist and yacd have them available IIRC
12:29<Terkhen>you just need to browse the forums and find them
12:29<@planetmaker>yup. Both outdated ;-)
12:29<Terkhen>well, unless you are willing to code updated version you can't solve that with compiling either
12:30<Terkhen>a updated version*
12:30<@planetmaker>;O=A <-- actually both have their "official" binaries hosted there
12:30<@planetmaker>but as said... outdated by several weeks at least. Rather months
12:30<Terkhen>months, yup
12:30<@planetmaker>June... 4 months
12:30<Starhero>hmm so...blah
12:31<Starhero>no point i gues
12:31<@planetmaker>"stable" OpenTTD is similarily "outdated"
12:31<Starhero>that is what i have been using ofc
12:31<@planetmaker>with more bug fixes, though
12:31<@planetmaker>thus not that old :-)
12:32<Starhero>what is really changed with the lastest non stable?
12:32<@planetmaker>thus if you don't care about the bug fixes...
12:32<Terkhen>outdated as in "I can't play without the new features in trunk"
12:32<@planetmaker>^ yup. Thx. Terkhen :-)
12:32<Starhero>(and calling anything stable is a lie)
12:32<Terkhen>Starhero: there is no comprehensive list
12:32<Terkhen>just check the revision log or wait for the changelog of the future 1.2.0 version
12:33<Starhero>if you don't me to the revision log?
12:34<Terkhen>you are interested in the ones tagged as "Feature" and sometimes "Add"
12:36<Starhero>and would my current grfs work in a compile of the latest?
12:37<Terkhen>unless they are incorrect, yes
12:39<@Yexo> is updated to quite recent with only features
12:40<Terkhen>oh, nice :)
12:40<Terkhen>lots of NewGRF stuff
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12:47<Eddi|zuHause>"H.264 decoder implemented in javascript" (
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12:50<Terkhen>that code must be scary :P
12:51<CIA-6>OpenTTD: frosch * r23080 /trunk/src/ (25 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Use variable 10 to enable vehicle GRFs to draw different sprites on the map and in various GUIs.
12:52<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: apparently it's not self-written code, but instead compiled
12:53<Terkhen>oh, I wasn't aware you could do that with javascript
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>you can do that with any language
12:53<Eddi|zuHause>i do that with nml! :p
12:53<frosch123> <- would that be an appropiate place to state the meaning of var10 for vehicle drawing?
12:54<frosch123>or does anyone know a better one?
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't that go into VarAction2?
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12:55<Terkhen>I understood you wrong then, I meant that I did not know that javascript code could be compiled
12:55<Terkhen>but probably you meant compiled from one language to another
12:56<Eddi|zuHause>Terkhen: yes, i meant compiled from another language into javascript
12:56<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: it is a cb specific variables. for real callbacks it is mentioned on the cb page; for station foundations it is mentioned in action 0 description where the foundations are enabled
12:57<Eddi|zuHause>hm, then explain it in Action2, and in VarAction2 make a list of all possible meanings (with links to the appropriate detailed description)?
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13:07<Starhero>CIA? Coding in action? :P
13:08<Eddi|zuHause>Starhero: we mentioned allah and bombs too often, now they are openly monitoring our actions
13:10<Prof_Frink>Let's bomb allah!
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13:14<Eddi|zuHause>different topic: greece makes a great demonstration why free market and democracy are contradicting philosophies
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14:13<TrueBrain>OpenDUNE is proud to inform you they just released version 0.7 :D
14:17<b_jonas>hmm, is anyone still working on the prince of persia clone?
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>i never finished prince of persia 1
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>prince of persia 2 was fun. we lost so much time on that bridge :)
14:23<Rubidium>now we're only waiting till GRFCodec is proud to inform there is a new build of a nightly (as would ttdpatch I guess)
14:23<Rubidium>that reminds me... michi_cc, grfcodec's nforenum likes some patching
14:24<TrueBrain>Rubidium: but that is not under my control to influence in any way ;)
14:25<Rubidium>then whom's influence is it?
14:26<TrueBrain>the author of grfcodec? :P
14:26<b_jonas>I love prince of persia 1. I completed it multiple times, including once in a single run without cheating.
14:26<z-MaTRiX>rasterized 1M pixel radius circle in haskell
14:26<b_jonas>And there are very few video games I've ever completed.
14:27<@planetmaker>TrueBrain: I guess a build plan was meant ;-)
14:27<@planetmaker>anyway, bbl
14:27<TrueBrain>planetmaker: he should have said so :)
14:27<b_jonas>Though I also like the Commander Keen series a lot
14:27<Rubidium>TrueBrain: so I can just mess with bamboo till it works?
14:27<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I seriously didn't catch on at all you were talking about the compile farm
14:28<TrueBrain>(no joke, I seriously didn't catch that part)
14:28<Rubidium>sorry ;)
14:28<b_jonas>actually, Commander Keen 1--3 shares at least one thing with Prince of Persia: they both have a very strange control system that you have to get used to, otherwise you can't jump and land where you want.
14:28<TrueBrain>and if you have a working jail for TTDp .....
14:29<TrueBrain>Rubidium: for which targets do you want grfcodec, and what is its source?
14:29<@planetmaker>all targets :-)
14:30<Rubidium>TrueBrain: windows-win9x(-ish), call it windows-win32 but built with gcc, linux-generic-i686 and linux-generic-amd64 should be enough
14:30<TrueBrain>planetmaker: ubuntu? debian? :P
14:30<Rubidium>there are no debian packaging files, so those can't be built
14:31<Rubidium>TrueBrain: source is at
14:31<TrueBrain>Rubidium: do you want a nightly + testing + release for grfcodec, or just a subproject under OpenTTD?
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14:31<Rubidium>TrueBrain: is testing regression, or RC candidates?
14:31<TrueBrain>non-uploading comiples
14:31<Rubidium>in any case, nightly + release would be enough as there are no regression tests (yet)
14:32<TrueBrain>well, not regression as regression-test
14:32<TrueBrain>but just a compile, to see if it all works
14:32<TrueBrain>like ... Testing atm
14:32<TrueBrain>(I was naming the current subprojects of OpenTTD ;)
14:32<Rubidium>oh, that would be nice
14:33<Rubidium>nightly ->, releases ->
14:33<frosch123>[19:19] <Eddi|zuHause> i never finished prince of persia 1 <- with the cheat i succeeded
14:33<TrueBrain>Rubidium: no mac version?
14:33<b_jonas>it's easy with the cheat: you just skip to the last level then just run to the arms of the princess
14:34<Rubidium>TrueBrain: they seem to have never been built, so from my POV it's not needed
14:34<TrueBrain>nightly at 21:00?
14:34<Rubidium>though maybe someone else fancies putting in the effort to support Mac out of the box
14:35<Rubidium> says it ran at 03:00
14:35<TrueBrain>0300 it is
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14:37<LordAro>web hosting. thoughts?
14:37<Zuu>I've reed in the commit logs lately about several interesting new NewGRF features :-)
14:38<Zuu>LordAro: Depends on what you want to host.
14:38<TrueBrain>I wouldn't start a webhosting company; there are enough of them already
14:38<Zuu>Just another random hobby project or something that requires some kind of updtime?
14:39<TrueBrain>Rubidium: your correct answer should have been This was a test!
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14:39<Prof_Frink>TrueBrain: Yes, but do you know how much Rudgikins pays us to say Zernebok?
14:39<TrueBrain>Rubidium: running plan ...... no clue if it will work correctly :D
14:40<TrueBrain>Rubidium: so far compile-errors
14:40<LordAro>basically, i (would like) an area that i can install my own stuff in
14:40<TrueBrain>the board is red!
14:41<TrueBrain>Rubidium: you never compiled grfcodec with buildbot, did you? :D
14:41<TrueBrain>boost is missing
14:41<TrueBrain>and 'hg' in the windows machine
14:41<TrueBrain>would you be able to install hg on the windows? I can install boost :)
14:41<Rubidium>shall I install it on the linux machines first?
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14:41<TrueBrain>the windows is also missing boost btw
14:42<Rubidium>boost on windows is a PITA
14:42<Rubidium>but I'll try
14:42<TrueBrain>please do; I will fail horribly :D
14:42<TrueBrain>I can do Linux, I know how Linux owrks :D
14:42<Rubidium>about one million header files fracking stuff up
14:42<Rubidium>(stuff being Windows' performance)
14:43<TrueBrain>ugh ... too many boost shit ...
14:43<TrueBrain>libboost-all-dev ? :)
14:43<Rubidium>that ought to be more than enough
14:43<Zuu>hg is surely installable in Windows, but that was maybe not the question.
14:44<Rubidium>don't know which ones are actually needed
14:44<TrueBrain>me neither; so we just install all :P
14:44<TrueBrain>Achievement unlocked: solving problems
14:45<Rubidium>TrueBrain: hmm... guess what typing hg in mingw gives me on the CF?
14:46<Rubidium>TrueBrain: it gives me mercurial
14:46<Rubidium>which user runs the builds on Windows?
14:46-!-z-MaTRiX [] has joined #openttd
14:46<TrueBrain>otherwise a lot didn't work :)
14:47<@Yexo>michi_cc: go ahead and commit that
14:50<TrueBrain>Rubidium: linux still fails ... but this time it seems it is missing a -lz in the Makefile?
14:50<Rubidium>it doesn't need zlib
14:50<TrueBrain>libpng does
14:50<Rubidium>then libpng's libpng-config has to give the -lz
14:51<TrueBrain>makes you wonder, doesn't it? :D
14:52<Rubidium>if I haven't made a typo the hg problem should be solved
14:52<TrueBrain>as it doesn't ... :)
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14:52<Rubidium>hmm, building it statically?
14:52<TrueBrain>on my local machine, libpng-config --ldflags shows no -lz
14:52<TrueBrain>but it does work
14:52<TrueBrain>so why doesn't it work on th CF .. hmm ..
14:53<Rubidium>might be that I slightly messed with the libpng and friends on the CF's generic jail
14:53<Terkhen>see you tomorrow
14:53<Rubidium>by removing the .so version
14:53<Rubidium>to force statically linking
14:53<TrueBrain>why would you do that?
14:53<TrueBrain>bye Terkhen :)
14:53<TrueBrain>Rubidium: lolz :D
14:54<TrueBrain>Rubidium: that is one way of doing that :P
14:54<TrueBrain>Rubidium: would it be an issue if I reinstall them?
14:54<Rubidium>TrueBrain: yes, statically linking some stuff is not trivial (or I haven't found the right way to do it)
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14:54<TrueBrain>static is a bitch, yup
14:55<Rubidium>but libpng is a bitch to not do statically as there are currently 1.2, 1.4 and 1.5 in the wild
14:55<Rubidium>all with different ABIs
14:55<Rubidium>so the easiest would be to modify libpng-config to just return -lz as well ;)
14:56<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I agree
14:56<LordAro>i'd say something, but i have to go now :L
14:56<@Alberth>is it me? :)
14:57<TrueBrain>Rubidium: no target: bundles_xz
14:57*Rubidium has "fun" with iexplore
14:57<TrueBrain>Rubidium: hg issue solved; remaining issue is missing boosts/bimap.hpp
14:57<TrueBrain>Rubidium: which bundles do you want for this?
14:57<LordAro>Alberth: no, windoze time limits :(
14:58<Rubidium>use the search bar thingy to search, it immediately comes up with it having blocked "" for security reasons
14:58<LordAro>although, i did rescue my usb stick :)
14:58<@Alberth>good, and you made a backup too now? :)
14:59<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I made it bundle_gzip
14:59<Rubidium>TrueBrain: perfect ;)
14:59<LordAro>Alberth: well, i had a backup anyway, but was a bit old
14:59<LordAro>i will make sure i have a master on a proper hard drive from now on, however :)
14:59<LordAro>got to run...
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15:01<Rubidium>TrueBrain: in ~23 minutes (Windows progress bar time) it will have "installed" boost (I hope
15:01<TrueBrain>and you are killing I/O access :P
15:02<TrueBrain>(to the Windows VM, it is contained :P)
15:02<TrueBrain>and of course the nightly started up ....
15:02<Rubidium>never close the explorer window that had the .zip opened
15:02<Rubidium>... while it's copying files from it
15:03<Rubidium>stupid file manager
15:04<TrueBrain>it is Windows after all ;)
15:04<TrueBrain>well, Java is not much better, Bamboo refuses to pick up the phone ....
15:04<TrueBrain>gimme a webpage ffs :P
15:05<Rubidium>yeah :(
15:06<TrueBrain>I have no clue why Java applications always have to be this bad
15:06<TrueBrain>and why it still is the "industry standard"
15:09<TrueBrain>well, after a while it concluded on its own that it was taking too long to process a job
15:10<TrueBrain>not that it did anything against it, but it concluded :P
15:11<TrueBrain>one of the minor issues with Bamboo ... don't do anything when an expensive (read: nightly) job launches :D
15:15*Zuu wonders which Bamboo TrueBrain is thinking about. From the context it doesn't look like the Wacom Bamboo.
15:15<TrueBrain>you might be right there, yes
15:16<Zuu>"might" - sounds fuzzy
15:16<TrueBrain> <- Bamboo
15:16<TrueBrain>it mgiht not load atm :D
15:19<Zuu>Indeed it loads slow if at all.
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15:19<TrueBrain>there is a somewhat I/O shortage by the looks of the server stats :D
15:19<TrueBrain>in general, it is serving everything very very slow :P
15:19<TrueBrain>I blame Rubidium, but I am not sure :D
15:20<TrueBrain>since 10 minutes we are doing 1/5th of the normal bandwidth throughput :p That can not be accidental :D
15:21<Rubidium>oh, I'm already done with boost
15:21<Rubidium>well, or boost extracting was already done
15:21<TrueBrain>then I wonder what is starving the system :)
15:24<TrueBrain>well, I still tihnk it was boost, as everything is back to normal now (excluding Bamboo :P)
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15:41<TrueBrain>Rubidium: Windows also can't find libz :D
15:41<TrueBrain>can you add -lz to libpng-config there?
15:41<TrueBrain>(for --ldflags of course)
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15:42<plugwash>is there any documentation of how the content download system works?
15:43<frosch123>what kind of documentation?
15:43<andythenorth>there's code
15:44<TrueBrain>what other URLs can I think of full of random documentation related to the subject ...
15:44<TrueBrain>found another one :D
15:44<plugwash>I was wondering how it actually worked, whether it was possible to point it at a private server, whether there were any safegaurds against attackers in the network and so on
15:44<TrueBrain> (does that fall under documentation?)
15:45<TrueBrain>plugwash: that is more than one question :)
15:45<TrueBrain>how it actually work .. open any of the above URLs (still highly depends on what part you want to know about ...)
15:45<TrueBrain>private server: in theory, with a custom compiled library (or if you change your hosts file :P)
15:46<TrueBrain>safeguards against attackers ... what is an attacker going to attack? Sending you a random file you didn't ask for?
15:46<TrueBrain>attackers "in the network" .. what is an attacker "in the network"?
15:47<TrueBrain>s/compiled library/compiled binary/
15:47<plugwash>"what is an attacker "in the network"?" one placed so they can intercept the connection and replace what the server sends with what they want to send
15:47<plugwash>that is someone with the power to act as a MITM
15:47<TrueBrain>a Man in The Middle attack is that called
15:47<Rubidium>it's not worth the effort to run your own private server. If you do so, then you need to distribute binaries and you could as well just distributed the binaries
15:48*andythenorth remembers something
15:48<TrueBrain>and a MITM is always possible, for anything ..
15:48<TrueBrain>that is why you should run an AV, and trust your ISP :D
15:48<plugwash>TrueBrain, yes but you can limit what they can do
15:48<TrueBrain>they can send you random files
15:48<TrueBrain>I mean ...
15:49<TrueBrain>doesn't sound really useful :D
15:49<TrueBrain>the content service does exactly that: send you files when you request them
15:49<TrueBrain>so the possibilities for any attacker are rather limited to ... sending you a garbage file you didnt ask for?
15:49<andythenorth>MITM is defensible against, but never preventable
15:50<andythenorth>network equivalent of brain-in-a-vat problem in philosophy
15:50<andythenorth>or evil-demon
15:50<andythenorth>or changing-measuring-rods
15:50<plugwash>sending you a different file from the one you asked for
15:50<TrueBrain>either it is a valid grf file (or any other type), or it is not :)
15:50<TrueBrain>about identical as you uploading a file to BaNaNaS
15:50<TrueBrain>or sending you a link of a file to download :)
15:51<@Alberth>plugwash: given that many newgrfs hardly state what they do exactly, you have no way to verify anyway :)
15:51<andythenorth>for anyone who wanted to do serious mal, it would be relatively trivial to crack bananas, and upload evil binaries, then find a way to cause you to execute them
15:51<TrueBrain>andythenorth: 'evil binaries'?
15:51<TrueBrain>what would they do? Make all sprites black? :P
15:51<TrueBrain>any harm they can do is limited to OpenTTD itself
15:51<andythenorth>binaries that do evil things
15:52<andythenorth>TrueBrain: not if you can persuade the user to execute them from their file system :P
15:52<andythenorth>like any other file
15:52<TrueBrain>andythenorth: stupidity cannot be avoided :)
15:52<@Alberth>TB: make users waste hours behind the computer playing a game? :)
15:52<TrueBrain>and does not require cracking/hacking ;)
15:52*andythenorth considers some newgrfs malware anyway
15:52<andythenorth>they infringe good taste
15:52<TrueBrain>any newgrf malware that would be possible, you can distribute anyway :)
15:52<plugwash>TrueBrain, depends, what is the chance of their being exploitable bugs in the GRF parser/interpreter
15:52<TrueBrain>people blindly download them anyway ;)
15:53<TrueBrain>I tihnk if you have a MITM, OpenTTD contentservice is the least of your worries :)
15:53<TrueBrain>I am pretty sure they rather steal your banking details
15:53*andythenorth has done a tram, and would like applause
15:53<Rubidium>TrueBrain: could you try grfcodec building again?
15:53<TrueBrain>then try to exploit some random game not even 1% of the population plays :P
15:53<@Yexo>plugwash: there might be, but quite a few have been fixed in the last versions of openttd
15:54<TrueBrain>plugwash: so to answer your question: no, there are no (explicit) safeguards against MITM, as it is not a valid concern
15:54<@Yexo>and the only correct way to prevetn that is fixing the grf code in openttd, not by preventing a MITM
15:54<@Yexo>since anyone can upload any grf to bananas, so you don't need a MITM attack for that
15:54<TrueBrain>it is like protecting your door with heavy bolds, while having no walls :P
15:54<Rubidium>what's the point in preventing a MITM attack when someone can just upload a compromising file to bananas?
15:54<TrueBrain>I am very happy we all said the same thing 4 times now :P
15:55*andythenorth is MITM
15:55<TrueBrain>Rubidium: fun fact, make bundle_zip rebuilds the .exe files ...
15:55-!-andythenorth is now known as MITM
15:56<Rubidium>TrueBrain: all bundles do, for some (stupid?) reason
15:56<TrueBrain>worth looking into?
15:56<MITM>oh noes
15:56<MITM>someone has been stealing my nick
15:56-!-MITM is now known as andythenorth
15:56<Rubidium>it's forced specifically by the makefile for some reason I don't fancy figuring out
15:56<TrueBrain>Rubidium: r838 compiled and available on master
15:56<TrueBrain>please veirfy :)
15:57<TrueBrain>also distributed over mirrors now
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: i wanted to mention to rather use CB15 for capacity instead of CB36
15:57<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: now you tell me :P
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: that ships around the whole mail/goods mess
15:57<TrueBrain>plugwash: why do you have this worry?
15:57<andythenorth>I rather hoped that would be the case
15:57<andythenorth>I looked at cb15 on Sunday, there's some reason I didn't implement it
15:58<andythenorth>__ln__: I saw that earlier, pretty awesome
15:58<andythenorth>the game should feature it :)
15:58<plugwash>It actually started with me musing about the possibility of running private content download servers
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: which reason is that?
15:58<plugwash>and that got me musing about how the system worked more generally
15:59<TrueBrain>plugwash: what would be the benefit of using your own content server?
15:59<Rubidium>TrueBrain: it seems to be okay at first sight
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: CB36 is practiaclly useless with "first refittable" setting
15:59<Eddi|zuHause>i still think the game should actually fix that
15:59<@Yexo>Persistent storage accessed by GRFID. Size: 00 - FF (16) for each GRFID <- so how big is it? 256 or 16?
15:59<@Alberth>plugwash: just drop all stuff in a directory where openttd can find it, and you don't need a private server
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>an the specs should be clarified
16:00<plugwash>Avoiding cluttering up the content download system with GRFs that are not intended for general use but that you do want to distribute to multiple clients
16:00<TrueBrain>plugwash: the whole idea of the content service is to globalize the distribution of grfs (among others), as the old way (manually downloading one by one) was annoying and not reaching a full audiance. So one can wonder why that use would be to start aprivate one? (seriously wondering why you would want it btw :))
16:00<frosch123>Yexo: 16
16:00<frosch123>00 to 0F
16:00<TrueBrain>plugwash: isn't copy/paste easier?
16:01<Rubidium>plugwash: you are aware that a custom content server requires custom binaries to contact that server?
16:01<TrueBrain>but so yeah ... download the source, change the location it uses to find the content server, launch your own (all in the subversion), and profit :D
16:01*andythenorth -> newgrf spec
16:01<plugwash>so the code for the content server is in the openttd svn tree?
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>i looked at the relevant code once
16:02<TrueBrain>all our code is released under GPL and can be found in the SVN
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>but i got scared and threw it in a corner
16:02<TrueBrain>even our website
16:02<TrueBrain>we hold no secret :D
16:02<Eddi|zuHause>except the database password :p
16:03<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: lolz :D
16:03<TrueBrain>and user passwords :P
16:03<TrueBrain>and developers emails
16:03<frosch123>plugwash: you can actually specify version ottd version numbers when uploading stuff to bananas
16:03<TrueBrain>and and and :p
16:03<TrueBrain>okay, we have secrets! :P
16:03<Eddi|zuHause>and user credit card information :)
16:03<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: tss, you cannot proof that :P
16:03<frosch123>that way you can hide the download for basically all versions, and the stuff will only be available when joining a gamer that uses them
16:03<frosch123>(at least i believe so)
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>maybe i should post on /b/ :)
16:04<TrueBrain>frosch123: hackish, but would work :p Just he is not allowed to upload any grf that he is not the author of :D
16:04<frosch123>TrueBrain: coop is doing that a lot afaik
16:04<TrueBrain>Rubidium: GRFCodec:Testing is running too. Every commit it will compile. Make sure to click 'Watch' if you want to get an email :)
16:05<TrueBrain>frosch123: if they do, they get spank ;) They should never upload any grf of which they cannot give out the rights to distribute :)
16:05<frosch123>i mean the "upload stuff and set version to basically none"
16:06<TrueBrain>frosch123: like I said, hackish, but would work :)
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16:06<frosch123>e.g. those dummy-grfs which do nothing but say "you need grf pack 7.1" or so
16:06<TrueBrain>Rubidium: I will make you the Release target when you want to release. I don't want to test it and overwrite the current release :P
16:07<frosch123>btw. did we forgot some paragraph in the tos, which says something like "this is our server, we may reject distributing whatever we like" ?
16:08<frosch123>maybe bananas becomes a public place :p
16:08<TrueBrain>frosch123: why would we want to reject a file for distribution?
16:08<TrueBrain>anyway, nothing in the ToS says we have to do anything. It is all about the uploading granting (!) us rights
16:08<TrueBrain>nowhere says we will use the rights :)
16:08<TrueBrain>we just have them :P
16:10<@Yexo>because without any rules about that we practically have to host almost everything legal
16:10-!-Chris_Booth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:11<TrueBrain>you mean if someone uploads, say, a legal mp3?
16:11<@Yexo>of course not
16:12<TrueBrain>then I don't understand what you said, sorry :)
16:12<@Yexo>but if someone uploads a very silly grf you can't simply remove it
16:12<TrueBrain>we can; why can't we?
16:12<Eddi|zuHause>Yexo: if you go that way, who decides the limits what can be "censored" and what not?
16:12<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: the problem with cb15 is that I will have to maintain a list of every cargo where the unit isn't 1t or similar
16:13<andythenorth>every cargo, past, present or future
16:13<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: we do :D
16:13<@Yexo>sorry for all non-dutch speaking persons in here
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16:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: yes.
16:13<andythenorth>cb15 uses capacity exactly as returned
16:13<andythenorth>so 1 crate goods in that vehicle then weighs 1t
16:13<andythenorth>instead of 0.5t
16:14<andythenorth>it's insane
16:14<andythenorth>the current solution is clearly much more sane
16:14<andythenorth>which is to double all capacities on the assumption that (a) mail will be in the game (b) it will be first refittable cargo
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: then set mail directly
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: or better: check for presence of mail
16:14<andythenorth>ah ha
16:15<andythenorth>I already set mail
16:15<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: do you prefer the 30t down-feather hopper?
16:15<andythenorth>so (b) is lies :)
16:15<TrueBrain>Yexo / frosch123 : so if you really worried we 'give the idea we distribute every file' (which I understand is what Yexo wants to point out with the URL :P), add a point: 7. OpenTTD team holds the rights to not distribute a file, or something :P
16:15<andythenorth>cargo refitting is an unspeakable nest of madness
16:15<Rubidium>Yexo: isn't that more about banning people and removing all their content than removing content from some server?
16:15<andythenorth>so let us not speak of it
16:15<TrueBrain>then you only have to go through the trouble of making everyone sign the new ToS :P
16:15<TrueBrain>ugh, no, lets not change the ToS :P
16:15<frosch123>TrueBrain: plus "without stating any reasons"
16:16<TrueBrain>frosch123: we would never do that, so I am not worried about that tbh :)
16:16<TrueBrain>we never delete anything without having a clear reason
16:16<@Yexo>TrueBrain: I'm not worried at all
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: just a matter of compression :p
16:16<frosch123>well, i think we can rely on default law for now :)
16:16<TrueBrain>frosch123: which law?
16:16<frosch123>like offensive content
16:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: 'Dynamo' ? Does that fit my easter egg naming rules?
16:17<TrueBrain>Yexo: ah; you gave another fibe, sorry :D
16:17<andythenorth>if it's a football team for Dresden or Schalke, it fits :P
16:17<@Yexo>Rubidium: "Hoofdregel is dat een site-eigenaar zelf mag bepalen wat hij doet met zijn site (of blog of forum of wat dan ook). Maar als je bepaalde verwachtingen wekt bij bezoekers, dan kun je daaraan gehouden worden." <- I think that is more general than only about bans
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's Dresden's football team
16:17<andythenorth>I'll change it now
16:17<TrueBrain>Yexo: but I do see your point there
16:18<TrueBrain>although I wonder if that is Dutch law, or EU law speaking :D
16:18<@Yexo>at least Dutch, possible also EU
16:18<TrueBrain>I know Dutch law protects you against fraud in this way
16:19<TrueBrain>really neat btw, but okay :)
16:19<@Yexo>reading back I see my first lines about it were giving the wrong signal :p
16:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: feel free to suggest pantograph improvements, they bore me
16:19<@Yexo>just thought it's interesting, I'm not worried about it at all
16:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it's a separate layer in the psd source file
16:20<TrueBrain>but yeah, reading back the ToS, it would have been good if we also said what they can expect from us :P
16:20<TrueBrain>then agian, the only reason we have a ToS, is to avoid some .... people with argument against such distributed system :P
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's a pantograph for a late 19th century tram, but not a modern one
16:21<TrueBrain>Rubidium: anything else you want from the CF?
16:22<frosch123>once we had catcodec, osie and strgen
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: a modern (from ca. 1990) pantograph would look like this:
16:22<@Yexo>TrueBrain: an easy way to compile dev repos?
16:22<frosch123>oh, and pngcodec
16:23<TrueBrain>Yexo: easy .. hmm ... we have to talk about that :D
16:23<TrueBrain>you have to copy an existing project for it, and change the source. Not undoable, but more complex than I wanted :(
16:23<TrueBrain>frosch123: let me know if any of them gets any commit, then I add them
16:24<TrueBrain>frosch123: I don't want to overwrite the current files (as it would change the date, and possibly the binary), so when there is a new revision, I can add them
16:24<TrueBrain>Yexo: but I can add any dev repos you like. Takes me 5 minutes or something
16:24<@Yexo>there is nothing now, just wanted to point it out while you're working on it
16:25<TrueBrain>Yexo: yeah, and I prepared anything for it; just it is not a 1 click system I would have liked :(
16:25<TrueBrain>anything = everything
16:25<TrueBrain>nasty typo :P
16:30<TrueBrain>but, I have to add, the Clone Existing Project of Bamboo is really nice; works really well and fast :)
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16:39<Eddi|zuHause>now... need to resolve conflicts...
16:39<__ln__>you could start with syria
16:40<MNIM>meh, greece needs it more.
16:40<MNIM>a nuke would be a solution
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16:41<MNIM>maybe they won't try to blow up their own country like they usually do if you kill them all first
16:41<V453000>maybe they should make a poll on blowing the country up
16:41<MNIM>yes, they should.
16:41<MNIM>seriously, wtf is up with greece?
16:42<V453000>greeks. simple as that :D
16:42<MNIM>it used to be an outstanding culture some 2000+ years ago.
16:42<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: the inventors of democracy want to play actual democracy?
16:43<MNIM>Eddi|zuHause: usually a praise-worthy idea, but not for greeks.
16:43<Eddi|zuHause>and the second most undemocratical institution in europe doesn't like it`
16:44<MNIM>it's not the institution EU which hates it, it's everybody else who lives in europe who hates it, as everybody sees their own tax money being wasted.
16:44<MNIM>at least, I do, and from what I hear around me, a lot of others do too.
16:44<MNIM>usually giving the power to the people is a praise-worthy idea, but not for greeks.
16:45<__ln__>they could rename themselves to Democratic Republic of Greece
16:47<Rubidium>a 100% democracy isn't going to work, just look at e.g. California
16:48<MNIM>greece is the only country in 'europe' that has actually had civil war since the last world war, several coups d'etat
16:48<Rubidium>vote for tax cuts, vote against tax increases
16:48<Rubidium>vote for spending more for police/education, vote against spending less
16:49<MNIM>a military regime, brutal suppression of uprising
16:49<Rubidium>if it were left to the people they would pay no taxes, start retirement from their birth, ...
16:49<Eddi|zuHause>(not related to any topic)
16:50<__ln__>Rubidium: isn't that what they are quite much doing already in greece?
16:50<MNIM>hmmmmh, about unrelated, not sure if want
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16:50<MNIM>__ln__: it is
16:50<MNIM>that's why it's going to the sweet-fuck-all atm
16:51<Eddi|zuHause><MNIM> a military regime, brutal suppression of uprising <-- if you discount, like... whole of eastern europe, spain, ...
16:53<MNIM>uhh yes, spain and portugal, true.
16:53<Eddi|zuHause><Rubidium> vote for spending more for police/education, vote against spending less <-- that's the problem of allowing to vote for each budget entry separately
16:53<MNIM>forgot those. ^.^;
16:54<MNIM>either way, I still motion that greece is not really a european state
16:54<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: and the problem with not doing it means getting basically only things done that nobody likes
16:54<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: if they would have votes on: "increase police funding by x%, increase income tax by y%"
16:54<MNIM>even if only for the fact that word 'europe', of greek origin, means 'land of the sundown'
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: as an un-splittable unit
16:55<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: just look at the bills in the American congress
16:55<Rubidium>a healthcare bill that only makes it because it has tax cuts in it
16:55<Rubidium>(instead of the possibly necessary tax increase)
16:55<MNIM>let's leave americans out of this >.>
16:56<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: as if the tax cut/tax increase thing would work better in, like, germany :p
16:56<Rubidium>why? A lot of our trouble are caused by them
16:56<MNIM>they're possibly even worse than greece, the only way that nation still can pay it's army is because people keep trusting the dollar.
16:56<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: in Germany you don't have to opposing blocks of "far left" and "far right"
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: only because we have a reason to suppress our "far fight" block :)
16:58<Rubidium>even then, for many of the sane laws to pass you can find a majority in parlement
16:58<__ln__>will "we" have euro as the currency one year from now?
16:58<MNIM>mostly caused by a country's collective shame about a past which most current residents have never been a part off :P
16:58<Rubidium>instead of always having to win votes with the "extreme" opposite
16:59<MNIM>__ln__: judging by how we're taking care of said euro, Im not sure there's an euro to have as currency next year
16:59<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: if by "we" you mean the "core states" with "solid finance", then germany, netherlands and finland will still have the euro by next year :)
16:59<V453000>[21:59] <+Stablean> <insulfrog> it's a pity you can't use the mouse to pop the strey bubbles from the bubble generator :) <--- :D
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16:59<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: yes, that "we"
17:00<MNIM>eddi: not exactly, as we keep trying to fill that bottomless pit down south with our own money
17:00<MNIM>which means that in the end, our wallets will be empty too.
17:00<MNIM>isn't that kindoff odd?
17:01<__ln__>i read an article that by 2018 europe will be in war.
17:01<MNIM>economically stable and safe countries making debts because we're trying to help a country that doesn't even want said help>
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: afghanistan doesn't count? :)
17:02<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: no, i mean european countries against each other (or greece)
17:02<MNIM>Afghanistan hardly counts. numbers involved on our side is minimal.
17:03<Rubidium>MNIM: it's "our" own fault for being pussies
17:03<Rubidium>we accepted those countries that didn't meet the requirements for joining in the first place
17:04<MNIM>I didn't.
17:04<Rubidium>you did by proxy
17:04<MNIM>greece has been in the EU far longer than Ive had the right to vote!
17:04<Rubidium>well, then your parents
17:05<MNIM>in fact, greece has been in the EU longer than I have lived, :P
17:05<MNIM>I doubt that, too, considering other country's membership in the EU has never been up for referendum.
17:05<Rubidium>then you may not vote yet
17:05<Rubidium>(and you're at most 12)
17:05<MNIM>which it should have been, IMSHO
17:06<MNIM>Greece joined in 1981
17:06<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: it's not about EU membership, but Euro membership
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17:06<MNIM>Im born in 1991 :P
17:06<MNIM>neither were we asked to vote for that.
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17:07<@Yexo>MNIM: but your government voted about it, and you voted for your government
17:07<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: that is one of the real problems, the "democracy deficite" of the EU
17:07<__ln__>one nice way to avoid giving money to greece is to be a country that doesn't use the euro. (e.g. sweden, UK)
17:07<MNIM>I know, I agree with you on that
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: afaik the UK did help out greece already
17:08<MNIM>I was agreeing with eddi, In case that wasn't clear
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: you focus too much on what you, as a tax payer, "pay" to greece, but governments have whole other objectives.
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: e.g. one of the primary effects of the greece problem is a drop of the euro towards the dollar
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: which greatly helps export-oriented economies like germany
17:10<Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: I don't think that is their biggest concern
17:10<Rubidium>their biggest concern is bank domino d-day
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>that may be the second goal. helping out their own banks
17:11<MNIM>Im not concerned about paying tax, Im concerned that said tax is money is just thrown onto a big pile, after which a greek anarchist shouts "Eleftheria i Thanatos!" and lights the whole pile on fire
17:11<MNIM>EG, total waste
17:11<Rubidium>if Greece defaults, then all banks having Greek debt will loose that money. That will make their balance too low and they are essentially bankrupt
17:11<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: none of the money you "pay" effectively goes to any greek person
17:12<MNIM>you know what I mean.
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: it all flows directly back into the banking system
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: and maybe some rich greek people who know how to navigate the system
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: and that's the point where it's perfectly legit for the greek people to say "the only way to win this game is to not play at all"
17:13<MNIM>what I mean, anyway, is that the issue greece is costing /a lot/ of money, and said money does nothing to fix the problem.
17:13<Rubidium>another quite noticable thing is insurances banks have taken against not being paid back. With the current system of voluntary dropping half of the debt, those insurance companies don't have to pay. If Greece just goes bankrupt they have to pay, and in effect those insurance companies go bankrupt (which incidentally are banks as well)
17:13<Rubidium>a nice example of this is Lehman Brothers
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>this is the point where you better not have more than 10.000€ at the bank :)
17:14<MNIM>...sadly, I'm in trouble, in that case
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>a nice inflation would be useful now
17:15<Rubidium>all in all, it all went sour a long long time ago when the current monetary/banking systems were invented
17:15<MNIM>__ln__: while that's indeed, a historian's mind running wild, a nato/un peacekeeping force for greece like SFOR in the balkan would not be unthinkable.
17:15<Rubidium>the bubble will eventually burst and all we're doing now is postpone it
17:16<MNIM>Rubidium: my thinking
17:16<MNIM>and to postpone it we put even more money at risk
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: we are postponing it, because nobody has a clue how to start over with a better system
17:17<Rubidium>MNIM: if the monetary systems collapses money has no value, so your debt doesn't either
17:17<Rubidium>after all, it isn't backed by anything solid anymore
17:18<MNIM>that's the issue
17:18<MNIM>I have no debts
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>now's the best time to do so :)
17:19<MNIM>I have ~8000E standing there
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>build a house, buy a farm, start a _productive_ company
17:19<Rubidium>MNIM: actually, you do....
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>(i.e. nothing "we provide <internet-buzzword>")
17:20<Rubidium>"Federal Reserve Notes are legal tender, with the words "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" printed on each note" (Federal Reserve Note = US Dollar, but the Euro works the same)
17:20<MNIM>productive companies need more than 8000e to start, and I can't exactly lend anything right now
17:20<Rubidium>so you "own" ~8000E of someone elses debt
17:21<MNIM>true. so that means that I will own 8000e of /nothing/ if it all goes to hell
17:21<__ln__>investing 8000€ in the stock market after the upcoming collapse could prove profitable.
17:21<__ln__>if there's still stock market left.
17:21<MNIM>not to mention that 8000e might only get you a loaf of bread by then
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17:30<MNIM>the article is interesting, with just a couple of issues: france isn't exactly clean on economy either, and I doubt they'd go as far as even invading a country while they will barely be able to hold their own together.
17:30<MNIM>belgian civil war, however, doesn't sound so unlikely.
17:33<MNIM>which could prove quite beneficial to the netherlands, as antwerp can wave goodbye to being the prime western euro harbour
17:33<MNIM>which in turn will boost rotterdam,
17:34<MNIM>and as it'll all go to hell just a stone's throw south, dutch politicians suddenly all would agree on something
17:37<Eddi|zuHause>"and I doubt they'd go as far as even invading a country while they will barely be able to hold their own together." <-- throughout history, that's exactly the main reason to go to war. to distract from interior problems
17:37<MNIM>hmmmh, true.
17:38<MNIM>let's put it this way: reasonably, with what we can see now, they cannot
17:38<__ln__>a war in modern-day europe would be interesting.
17:39<MNIM>of course, for you it'll happen way down south and east :P
17:39<MNIM>while I myself would be able to hear the guns in the south
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>switzerland just recently rejected a ban on scatter-bombs, on the grounds that they need them to "defend themselves"
17:40<MNIM>moot argument, of course, since there are better ways, but they are right
17:40<MNIM>switzerland will be okay if the euro blows, but since they have no allies, they only have themselves
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17:41<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: switzerland is one of the main loosers in the whole euro crisis
17:41<frosch123>hmm, i guess libia is no longer interested in invading switzerland
17:41<MNIM>right now, they are, due to the economical crisis
17:41<MNIM>because europe is a major trading parter
17:42<MNIM>but you can bet your ass that switzerland will have it a lot better than the eu when the exrements hit the fan
17:42<__ln__>libyans are embracing democracy now! (did anyone seriously believe that in any point?)
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: what i said before of germany benefiting from a weak euro, switzerland has the exact opposite
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>switzerland needs a strong euro to stay competetive
17:43<MNIM>true. but what I mean, if we look a couple of years further, when the whole former euro zone is toting their guns and eying their neighbours, switzerland will be relatively high, dry and safe
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17:44<MNIM>switzerland has ridden out two world wars already, literally in the eye in the storm as it's surrounded by combatants
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: and a major migration target
17:45<MNIM>they'll ride out the third too.
17:45<MNIM>correct. but not a major military target.
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: with the anti-immigrants ruling there, that'll be a major strain on interior politics
17:46<MNIM>not more so a strain than in previous wars.
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>some people already call the SVP the "swiss nazi party"
17:46<MNIM>the netherlands have seen this too, in the first world war (tried the same in WW2, didn't go as well that time, lol)
17:47<MNIM>with the guns audible as far as goeree, belgians flooded the border and were put in refugee camps
17:49<MNIM>with soldiers stationed under every suitable roof and belgian refugees in camps, there was quite a strain on the souther regions
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17:50<MNIM>especially limburg would have not been a good place at that time, as it's wedge in right between belgium and germany.
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17:53<MNIM>so it's not unreasonable to compare that to switzerland in such a case.
17:54<MNIM>switzerland has however the advantage of a tactically perfect terrain which is easy to defend against any invading force north, west or south, and it's way less populated.
17:55<Starhero>I am confused
17:55<Starhero>I got i could easily try cargodist and yacd
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17:55<Starhero>I see hardly and differances in features of the game..besides those patches...
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: same can be said about afghanistan
17:56<Starhero>meaning the stable...and this branch that was used for cargodist seem no differnt
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: yet in the past few decades, multiple people tried
17:56<@planetmaker>Starhero: there isn't
17:56<Starhero>So there isn;t much changes?
17:56<MNIM>eddi: and failed, and still fail
17:56<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: leaving it the least developed region outside africa
17:56<@planetmaker>as said before: check the changelog you were linked to before
17:57<MNIM>true, but it wasn't very developed to begin with.
17:57<@planetmaker>it's the same game and there's only 3 months worth of development between them and current trunk or stable. At most
17:58<Starhero>Hmm so i might be A-okay on playing this verson with minimum ...frustrations with changes..
17:58<Starhero>I did check out the last nightly
17:58<Starhero>I see that somethings changed with the vehicle list..but that is about it that i care about.
17:58<Starhero>I think something with slopes and roads also
17:59<MNIM>switzerland, having advanced technology, plus a coherent goverment, plus the advantage of a culture of fortifications and a tactical warfare doctrine based on their geography.
17:59<MNIM>afghanistan hasn't had those advantages in the past hundred years.
17:59<@planetmaker>you might care about a handful of NewGRFs working in trunk but not in trunk 3 months ago
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17:59<@planetmaker>or you might not care ;-)
18:00<Starhero>This has been said before I am dam sure...but cargodist type patches should be optimized and merged. This really needs to be in the gives a purpose to us millionares *large glossy eyes of inspiration*
18:00<MNIM>merging two types of cargodist?
18:01<MNIM>that's an insane task, at best
18:01<MNIM>that's like trying to merge mac osx and ubuntu
18:01<@Yexo>Starhero: last I heard was that nobody had ideas for the optimization
18:01<MNIM>forgive me the crude simile
18:01<@planetmaker>Starhero: please come forward with suggestions on how to optimize one or both of the patches
18:02<@planetmaker>yes, that's why they currently are on hiatus
18:03<Starhero>I have a friend that might beable to help ..but not me..
18:03<MNIM>I think the best idea here would be to just choose one above the other and get it into trunk.
18:04<@planetmaker>MNIM: and loose 50% performance?
18:04<__ln__>*it's 'lose' with one o
18:04<MNIM>yes, or try to merge them both into trunk, and risk them interfering with eachother and have even less left
18:05<__ln__>people who have spelled 'looooose' with two tonight are, in alphabetical order: Eddi|zuHause, planetmaker, Rubidium
18:05<MNIM>not to mention that merging might take much, much longer than simply taking a decision.
18:05<__ln__>not that i'm paying any attention to it or anything
18:06<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: it's a stupid word anyway
18:06<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: agreed, it's english
18:06<MNIM>afterwards you can compare 'em, see what the differences are, and from then on improve from that 50% you had
18:06<MNIM>otherwise you'll be stuck with the 0% of having no cargodist at all forever
18:07<MNIM>just my thinking here.
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18:10<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: that can only be said by someone who hasn't witnessed the old PBS
18:10<MNIM>I haven't. true. Ive heard that it was quite horrible?
18:11<MNIM>either way, is any of the cargodist patches functional?
18:11<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: that's why the errors shall not be repeated. that means, features of that scale must be polished before being commited
18:11<MNIM>true, I can't protest on that.
18:11<MNIM>but did you have two versions of pbs too?
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: for various interpretations of "functional"
18:12<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: how is having one or two versions of PBS relevant?
18:13<MNIM>Ill interpret that as "it works, I suppose, but I wouldn't give it to a new player to play with", then
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: but between "have buggy PBS" and "have no PBS", the second was the path to be chosen
18:13<MNIM>well, now you have two different patches for cargodist, right?
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: over the course of the past few years, we had like 6 different patches for cargo destinations
18:14<MNIM>oh, so there's already been culled quite a bit
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: performance was usually one of the key problems
18:17<MNIM>how does the process for including a patch into trunk go anyway?
18:17<@Yexo>you convince a dev to commit it
18:18<@Yexo>of course a lot depends on the size / impact of the patch
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>1) user writes patch, 2) dev reviews it and slaps it user in the face for not obeying code style, 3) repeat
18:19<TrueBrain>Eddi|zuHause: some things never change :D
18:19<__ln__>2.5) get kicked
18:20<MNIM>so, basically it all depends on the willpower of the patcher to get it to trunk.
18:20<@Yexo>it depends on the willpower of said patcher to write a patch in the first place
18:21<MNIM>well, true. but after that patch exists, take for an example, a lot of patch in the forum, a lot die
18:21<@Yexo>if the patch is an easy fix of easy feature that doesn't need discussion, the "convincing" part is almost nonexistent
18:21<@Yexo>a lot of the patches in the forum have never been updated to adhere to codestyle or have been discussed and rejected
18:21<TrueBrain>most patches die because they do not obey coding style, and the patcher refuses to adjust
18:22<TrueBrain>many people tend to forget it is not a democracy. Coding style is mandatory :)
18:22<MNIM>well, this country is a democracy, but it still doesn't allow me to kill someone. still a democracy :P
18:23<Starhero>....I am gonna recreate ottd in C# and add multithread and cargo dist in the core...Yes...Yes this will work...*stares at IDE*....screw that....*clicks x*
18:23<Starhero>C++ is what stops me from actually trying to change one thing in this game.
18:23<Starhero>Sad cuz i use to rave about C++ and tell ppl to hate java...
18:24<MNIM>take for an example, a patch for a treeline. Ive seen it in the forums, and Im going to disregard any discussion about it since I just want to give an example. :P
18:24<Starhero>Now i use it's cusion.
18:24<Starhero>All I ask is tell me what you mean by that..I'll do the rest of the research..teh hell is a treeline..
18:25<TrueBrain>MNIM: one way to bend what I meant to say, but you know what I mean :P
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18:26<MNIM>hypothetically, somebody builds a treeline patch, but doesn't do it properly so it'll never go to trunk.
18:26<TrueBrain>MNIM: as what I meant of course is: even if 10000 people like a patch, if it doesn't obey coding style, it will not be committed :P
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: nobody expects the patch to be "proper" at once, but you have to work to improve it
18:27<MNIM>yes, but will it never be recreated in proper code either?
18:27<MNIM>eddi: hypothetically, original author refuses
18:27<TrueBrain>MNIM: very much depends on the patch writer, and the availiablity of any developer :)
18:27<@Yexo>that depends on the patch author and the willingness of the devs
18:27<Starhero>So...that means no ottd devs could ..ya kno...for the sake of the community...code stylize it?
18:27<@Yexo>course they could, but that takes time
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: if the author refuses, and nobody else picks it up, there's nothing we can do
18:28<@Yexo>time they could spend on anything else they like more
18:28<MNIM>Starhero: you can't just take another's code and fix it, as that would be stealing
18:28<@Yexo>MNIM: in this case you could, since it's all gpl
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: In the end, there needs to be somebody who "just does it"
18:28<MNIM>hmmmh, guess so.
18:28<Starhero>well we live in the world of instant communications...
18:29<TrueBrain>Starhero: if the original author is too lazy to code style it, why would a dev bother?
18:29<@Yexo>going back to your treeline example: I've seen the patch in the forums. I somewhat like the idea but I'v never really been sold on it's usefulness
18:29<TrueBrain>he could do it too, for the sake of the community ;)
18:29<@Yexo>I haven't seen any pushes for it on irc, so I kindof forgot about it
18:29*MNIM fixes that
18:29<MNIM>Ill push for it :P
18:30<MNIM>I kinda like having some tree-less spots
18:31<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: imho. tree growth needs some major restructuring
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: to prevent the entire map from being covered with trees so quickly
18:32<MNIM>Ive seen a patch for that too
18:33<@Yexo>MNIM: beginning to see the problem? tree line height is mentioned and a major restructuring of tree growth comes up
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: there's a setting to prevent tree growth at all, but that has the extreme opposite effect of eventually having a map without trees
18:33<MNIM>yexo: noticed
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: there must be a balance inbetween
18:33<@Yexo>just adding the tree line height without any thoughs about more restructuring of tree growth is a bad idea since it makes further development harder
18:33<MNIM>eddi: I think I saw a setting which slowed it, could be sprinkles?
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: current tree growth patch misses a feedback link to reach this balance
18:33<MNIM>Yexo: gotcha
18:33<@Yexo>so suddenly a seemingly simple patch becomes a lot of thinking about the direction is should go in
18:33<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: it's in trunk meanwhile
18:34<MNIM>yeah, eddi, the growing fast is not the issue, I mean, it took a hundred years in my game to grow completely full
18:34<MNIM>it needs to have a balance, however
18:34<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: now add in a daylength factor, and the same map is full in a few years
18:35<MNIM>it needs something which 'kills' the trees
18:35<@Yexo>lumbermill in tropic
18:35<MNIM>ah, trees are linked to clicks, not calender?
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18:35<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: tree growth is done in the tile loop
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: usual daylength patches leave the tile loop untouched
18:36<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: but that's actually not the issue
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18:37<MNIM>what is, then?
18:37<MNIM>eh, brb, need to perform daily 'cargodist' loop ;)
18:40<TrueBrain>TMI? :P
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18:43<@planetmaker>trees just die also normally.
18:43<@planetmaker>just more trees grow than die
18:44<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: that's the problem, the number of trees that die is not scaling properly with the number of trees that exist
18:44<MNIM>ah yes.
18:44<MNIM>that doesn't help
18:44<@planetmaker>yes, I'm aware, Eddi|zuHause
18:45<@planetmaker>but even if that would be 1:1 tree growth would be unsatisfactorily: you'd end up with trees everywhere - just lower density
18:45<MNIM>planetmaker: to counter that, tree death needs to be more likely near an open spot/recent tree death
18:46<MNIM>that way you would eventually get patches of forest and open land, if balanced right
18:47<@planetmaker>which would mean to store lots of overhead info ;-)
18:47<MNIM>at least, it does in nature
18:47<@planetmaker>or to introduce entities like "wood" (analoguous to town)
18:47<MNIM>planetmaker: how does current tree growth happen?
18:48<MNIM>tree seed more likely in neighbourhood of existing tree?
18:48<MNIM>tree death would be just the opposite
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: there are two types of tree growth
18:48<MNIM>tree death more likely in neighbourhood of empty tile
18:48<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: one is an existing tree spawning a "child" in a nearby tile
18:49<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: the second is a random tree getting spawned on a random tile
18:50<MNIM>ahah, like that
18:50<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: the relevant parts of the code might be called "TileLoop_Tree" and "OnTick_Tree". respectively
18:52<@planetmaker>tree_cmd.cpp might be the file to look at
18:52<@planetmaker>or similar
18:53<Eddi|zuHause>you may find the second is massively amplified in tropic climate
18:55<MNIM>hmmmh, from what I gather from what you say, it sounds as if the 'tree death more likely near empty spot' should be put under tile-loop
18:56<MNIM>where the case would be 'if empty tile, kill a nearby tree now and then'
18:57<TrueBrain>more then than now :D
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: and if you familiarized yourself with the code, you may introduce a gradual tree line like "beyond height X, trees may not reach the largest growth step, beyond height Y only the smallest growth step, and beyond height Z no tree may be planted"
19:00<MNIM>that's what I was thinking
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: then you've a problem with the arctic forests, which contradict the "natural" tree line concept by requiring to be above the snow line
19:01<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: and then you have a problem with any newgrf forest industries
19:01<MNIM>hight x should be independent of snow line
19:02<@planetmaker>and mind the wood cutter in tropics
19:02<@planetmaker>it cuts trees. and requires them to produce wood
19:02<MNIM>especially in the case of a seasonally changing snowline like in opengx+terrain
19:02<@planetmaker>you don't want to render that useless
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: but the tree line is inherently tied to the snow line
19:03<MNIM>not in the patch that I saw?
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: no, but "realistically"
19:03<MNIM>only loosely
19:03<MNIM>depends on climate, really
19:04<@planetmaker>good night
19:04<MNIM>snowline is more dependent on air density and density than temperature.
19:05<MNIM>in general, as you go north, the snow line drops faster than the tree line.
19:05<MNIM>wait, scratch that
19:05<MNIM>the winter snow line drops faster than the tree line.
19:06<MNIM>the summer snow line drops slower, naturally
19:06<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: the tree line does not "drop" in winter
19:06<MNIM>true. that's why it can't be linked in ottd
19:06<MNIM>as the snow line can vary per season
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>trees need, among other things, a snow-free environment for several months
19:07<MNIM>Id propose to make the treeline the average between summer and winter snow line.
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: you can get the highest seasonal snow line, and set that to be the tree line
19:07<MNIM>or that
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>meaning Z in the above formula
19:09<MNIM>sounds like we've got ourselves the outline for a new trees patch?
19:09<MNIM>now to get someone mad enough to actually code it. :P
19:09<MNIM>anyway, I think it's getting too late for coherent thought for me, so Im withdrawing
19:10<Eddi|zuHause>MNIM: "we" still have no concept to actually balance tree growth against tree death
19:12<MNIM>trial and error works in nature :P
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19:37<Eddi|zuHause>trial and error only works reasonably fast if you have immediate feedback
19:38<Eddi|zuHause>that's obviously not the case when it takes 100 ingame years to test
19:42<Eddi|zuHause>also, throwing around the phrase "this is well tested" is a sure way to make sure the patch is never going to trunk :p
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19:56<__ln__>i have matrix A, and it know its inverse too. now solving AX=B is trivial, but how do i use the inverse to solve CX=B, where C is almost like A, but one row multiplied by -1?
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19:57<frosch123>start with C = DA
19:58<frosch123>D being diagonal
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20:05<__ln__>i'll try
20:06<Eddi|zuHause>that there exists a D which is diagonal that fulfils this equation might be worth proving :p
20:08<__ln__>i suspect diagonals is not the intended solution here because those are only introduced later
20:09<Eddi|zuHause>you can use diagonals without knowing that they are special :p
20:09<frosch123>i would assume there is only one solution to the problem. they are all the same, using a diagonal matrix is just the most formal way to write it up
20:10<frosch123>well, i mean, there are multiple ways to come to the same result :p
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20:12<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: you don't even need the fact that D is diagonal, it's just very obvious to a trained eye
20:12<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: what you actually need is that in your case, D^2=1
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20:14<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and you might want to check whether you need C = A*D instead
20:15<frosch123>is that a didactical hint? or did i mess up?
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>(one modifies rows, the other one modifies columns, but i'm too lazy/tired right now to make sure which is which)
20:15<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i do suspect that it's the wrong way around :)
20:16<frosch123>i think i am right :)
20:18<Eddi|zuHause>that happens to the best of us :p
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22:20<__ln__>heureka, 4*2 is not 6 but 8.
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---Logclosed Wed Nov 02 00:00:45 2011