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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-11-02

---Logopened Wed Nov 02 00:00:46 2011
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04:08<Terkhen>good morning
04:09<Terkhen>those nightly conversations grow longer everyday, from now on I'll only check the backlog for highlights :/
04:10<Terkhen>hi planetmaker
04:11<@planetmaker>salut Terkhen
04:15<Terkhen>planetmaker: can you remind me the link for configuring the bouncer? I forgot it :P
04:19<dihedral>good morning
04:20<@planetmaker>^^ Terkhen
04:20<Terkhen>thank you :)
04:20<@planetmaker>moin dihedral
04:20<Terkhen>good morning dihedral
04:20<dihedral>hello Terkhen, planetmaker :-)
04:32<TrueBrain>Terkhen: it is at least better than the backlog of the mornings. It only says: morning morning morning morning :P :P
04:32<@planetmaker>morning TrueBrain ;-)
04:33<Terkhen>good morning TrueBrain <--- messages like this one are more easy to filter than huge single-line dissertations about whatever :)
04:33<TrueBrain>Terkhen: nah; scroll scroll, there :P
04:36<TrueBrain>I love some posts on the forum :D "I played the original 15 years ago on a 486 ..." .. then maybe you should indeed go play the original, not OpenTTD :P Hihi :D
04:38<@planetmaker>ye old times were surely better ;-)
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04:47<Terkhen>yes, those trucks that refused to move were a blast
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05:33<Arafangion>Darn, they fixed those bugs? :(
05:33<Terkhen>Arafangion: luckily yes :)
05:33<Terkhen>hi Celestar
05:34<dihedral>the future was for sure better back then ^^
05:34<Arafangion>dihedral: And also worse.
05:36<Arafangion>dihedral: Have you read 1984?
05:41<Celestar>peter1138: did you give CBH any shot recently?
05:41<Celestar>I've found my last attempt somewhere on disk :D
05:42<Celestar>of course no one single hunk applies, but meh :P
05:42<Celestar>but it still works with the assumption that it is prudent to divide MP_TUNNELBRIDGE into two tile types.
05:42<Celestar>and I'm no longer sure that is valid :P
05:43<@peter1138>custom tunnel heads!
05:44<Celestar>actually I had a MP_RAILWAY_BRIDGE and MP_ROAD_BRIDGE :P
05:44<@peter1138>we've got aqueducts now as well
05:45<Celestar>yeh, saw that.
05:45<@peter1138>they should have the treatment too
05:45<Celestar>the advantage was that MP_RAILWAY_BRIDGE and MP_ROAD_BRIDGE basically were 1:1 copies of MP_RAILWAY and MP_ROAD with some extra bits set.
05:46<Celestar>using the same handling functions
05:46<Celestar>it removed a shitload of special handling code.
05:46<Celestar>only. it failed at some point :P
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>i think the vehicle_enter_tile functions need a z parameter
05:49<Eddi|zuHause>then you can introduce "wormhole" tiles
05:50<Eddi|zuHause>so the magic jumping from bridge head to bridge end can be removed
05:51<Celestar>the problem is, when introducing MP_RAILWAY_BRIDGE, MP_ROAD_BRIDGE, MP_WATER_BRIDGE, MP_TUNNEL, we're running out of tile types soon :P
05:52<Eddi|zuHause>maybe with michi_cc's attempt of stacking the rail/road tile on top of the bridge, this becomes obsolete
05:54<@peter1138>michi_cc, get to it! ;)
05:54<Celestar>where's his patch :D
05:55<@peter1138>new map array! :D
05:55<Celestar>try #42 :D
05:56<Celestar>even better
05:56<Eddi|zuHause>well, all his other patches start with ya :)
05:57<Celestar>sometimes I hate git :P
05:57<Eddi|zuHause>i never got accustomed to git
06:03<Celestar>I use it a lot locally.
06:07<Eddi|zuHause>i found hg way more intuitive to use
06:08<Celestar>that it is
06:09<Eddi|zuHause>and whenever i asked anyone about "basic" git tutorials, they told me "you first have to know the internal structures"... no i do not.
06:09<@peter1138>git apparently got an overhaul at some point
06:09<@peter1138>it's a lot easier to use these days
06:09<Celestar>yeah it is.
06:09<@peter1138>i dunno when, probably years ago :p
06:10<Celestar>but still
06:10<Celestar>the learning curve is .... a wall
06:10<Eddi|zuHause>i only ever used git to bisect wine, but that was years ago as well
06:11<Eddi|zuHause>at least these guys had a line by line tutorial how to do that
06:13<z-MaTRiX>openttd like anti-alias?
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX hate verb?
06:15<z-MaTRiX>does openttd like anti-alias ?
06:15<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Funny, I have the reverse thing with hg
06:15<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: So now you've pulled and have multiple heads, and need to merge them and then update your checkout and don't forget to commit, uh what?!
06:16<Eddi|zuHause>blathijs: "hg rebase"
06:17<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: It's probably because I learned git first
06:17<blathijs>Eddi|zuHause: Though I still really like all of the stuff that's configured in a sane way on git by default
06:17<blathijs>like running git log through a pager
06:17<Eddi|zuHause>i found that very annoying
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06:18<z-MaTRiX>let aa [] i=[];aa [a,b] i = if abs (intdif i) > (1/256) then (if (intdif i)>0 then [[fromIntegral (round a),fromIntegral (round b),1-intdif i],[fromIntegral (round a),fromIntegral (round (b)+1),intdif i]] else [[fromIntegral (round a),fromIntegral (round b),1+intdif i],[fromIntegral (round a),fromIntegral (round (b)-1),-intdif i]]) else [[fromIntegral (round a),fromIntegral (round b),1.0]]
06:18<z-MaTRiX>let sqr f=f*f;doc r xy=sqrt((sqr(r))-(sqr(xy)));circlefirstoctant r = [aa [fromIntegral (round xy),fromIntegral (round (doc r xy))] (doc r xy) | xy <- [1.0,2.0 .. r/sqrt(2)]]
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06:18<z-MaTRiX>first octant of rasterized circle with AA
06:19<@peter1138>has anyone played with 32bpp-ez here?
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06:20<@planetmaker>that long ago so that a 'yes' is lost in the course of time
06:20<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: when do you learn that spamming giant blobs of code is totally useless?
06:21<z-MaTRiX>its a small piece of code only
06:21<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: ever googled for "it takes only 3 commands to install gentoo"?
06:22<z-MaTRiX>./configure;make;make install; ?
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06:23<Eddi|zuHause>z-MaTRiX: i mean this one:
06:24<@planetmaker>Eddi|zuHause, the ... && vi blah && ... irritates me ;-)
06:24<z-MaTRiX>aham cool i used to do one-liners too
06:26<z-MaTRiX>why write a multiline script if it can be done in a single pipeline ?
06:26<b_jonas>planetmaker: it also has an interactive invocation of cfdisk
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06:27<dihedral>tecnically it's not correct, because he/she/it concaternates way too many commands in order to call that '3 commands' :-P
06:27<dihedral>perhaps 3 lines of bash - yes..
06:28<b_jonas>I still call it a one-liner when I type 500 characters long of a perl command in the bash command line
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06:29<z-MaTRiX>; means line end btw
06:29-!-Netsplit <-> quits: @orudge
06:32*Celestar wonders why epiphany imports contacts from pidgin EVERY time
06:34<Eddi|zuHause>it's probably been programmed by people like z-MaTRiX, who think that copying verbatim "examples" of code is a good way of programming
06:35-!-Netsplit over, joins: orudge
06:35<z-MaTRiX>no, actually its in haskell and its an algorithm
06:35<z-MaTRiX>haskell applies logic functions
06:36<z-MaTRiX>using whatever methods
06:36<z-MaTRiX>but still makes array of 5.6megapixels of circle data in 2 sec
06:42*Celestar is bored.
06:42<Celestar>friggen tests take ages.
06:43<Celestar>because they borked the test framework too :P
06:46<blathijs>Perhaps you should write performance tests for the test framework, while you're waiting ;-p
06:46<Celestar>blathijs: I have done so :P
06:47<Celestar>test suite performance is down from 8 hours (whole set) to 62 hours (same amount and quality of tests)
06:47<Celestar>that's a factor of 8 because the borked the API somewhere
06:47<blathijs>That would be 62 minutes, I presume? :-)
06:48<Celestar>which kinda makes testing a somewhat tedious task :P
06:48<blathijs>Then I'm misreading your "down from" ?
06:48<Celestar>performance down, time up .P
06:50<Celestar>my colleague next to me testing another app has it worse. The suppliers "unit tests" involve firing up an Oracle DB plus a full JBOSS application server. for each of the tests, and there are MANY of them. Most of which fail.
06:51<b_jonas>have you ever ran the full testsuite of ghc or of gcc to completion?
06:51<b_jonas>I think it's impossible
06:51<Celestar>I'm pretty sure it doesn'T take roughly a week :P
06:52<Celestar>(on a 64 CPU Itanium 2 HP Superdome)
06:53<b_jonas>Celestar: those supercomputers don't actually help so much if your tests aren't much parallel
06:54<Celestar>how can unit tests not be parallel.
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>since unittests are generally independent from each other, you can just fire up 64 tests simultaneously
06:57<@peter1138>gah, fucking asus
06:57<@peter1138>trackpad stopped working on a laptop
06:57<@peter1138>and i said... it doesn't work, it's in linux, doing a recovery won't help
06:58<@peter1138>okay but you must do a recovery
06:58<@peter1138>so eventually i cede
06:58<@peter1138>boot up the recovery
06:58<@peter1138>and guess what
06:58<@peter1138>can't select an option because you can only select it with the trackpad, lol
06:58<@peter1138>tab just gives you back and cancel :P
07:00<blathijs>USB mouse? :-)
07:00<Celestar>my Asus laptop was great, until it broke. Then life with asus started to suck badly.
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07:01<@peter1138>yes, usb mouse works
07:01<@peter1138>but that's not the point :)
07:02<@peter1138>it's a 2 month old laptop, the trackpad should work, hehe
07:05<Celestar>trackpads suck :P
07:05<Celestar>I prefer nipples :P
07:06<Celestar>errrr .. "trackpoints"
07:06-!-mode/#openttd [+o orudge] by ChanServ
07:07<Celestar>erm ..
07:07-!-Neon [] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.]
07:07<Celestar>"I have compressed my important files with md5sum. how do I decompress them ?"
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07:08<Celestar>constant-length encryption anyone?
07:08<b_jonas>I have compressed them with ln -sf world-peace-plan.doc
07:08<b_jonas>-sf means to add to an archive, right?
07:08<Celestar>"MD5sum: We compress all your files to 32 bytes"
07:09<b_jonas>Celestar: 32 bytes each or 32 bytes total?
07:09<Noldo>total can be done too
07:10<Celestar>b_jonas: doesn't matter, whatever youi want :P
07:12<Celestar>we can compress your entire harddrive to a few bytes.
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>just compress all files to 1 bit less, and do that recursively
07:12<Celestar>16 actually, not 32 :P
07:13<Celestar>what's recursion :>
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>to understand recursion you first have to understand recursion
07:21<b_jonas>hmm, this seems wrong
07:21-!-Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
07:21<b_jonas>I've placed a station using the Rural stations newgrf,
07:22<b_jonas>and there's a fence between the buffers for the two tracks
07:23<b_jonas>only the buffers, not the main part of the station
07:25<Eddi|zuHause>and what do you intend to do about it?
07:26<b_jonas>first, I check if there's a newer version of the newgrf
07:27<MNIM>b_jonas: this is caused by the newgrf, as the fence around the buffers is part of the station tile sprite. it doesn't check for it's own adjacent buffers
07:28<b_jonas>MNIM: but it does remove the fence between the non-buffer platforms
07:28<MNIM>I know. as for why the maker didn't do that with the buffers too, I have no idea
07:29<MNIM>but that newgrf is /old/, and as far as Im aware there's no current development or newer versions available.
07:30<@peter1138>hmm, we don't have a codeblocks project do we?
07:32<@planetmaker>should we?
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>we don't have lots of <buzzword>
07:34<@peter1138>just that if we did i could use it :p
07:39<@peter1138>probably easier to boot into linux
07:41<TrueBrain>aahhhhhh ... just took the best dump ever. I feel zen now.
07:43<__ln__>"As Greek politics grew ever more chaotic strong political protests erupted as the government moved to replace military chiefs with officers seen as more supportive of George Papandreou, the prime minister."
07:44<TrueBrain>I asked our prime minister if he can have a referendum in my country, so we can vote against supporting Greece. Those fuckers want to vote if they want our support or not .. well .. take it or leave it :P
07:47<@planetmaker>it's also a vote about the imposed pre-conditions of the support.
07:48<@planetmaker>Thus the vote is actually a quite sane decision IMHO
07:48<@planetmaker>It's like Germany's Federal government would have to do a cut of more than 100 billion Euro
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08:13<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: if it ever comes to that point, the world has other problems :p
08:14<@planetmaker>sure. But IMHO it nicely illustrates why it's quite reasonable to ask the populace whether that course of action is wanted
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>planetmaker: the german politicians are way too scared to ever let the population decide about _anything_
08:16<TrueBrain>planetmaker: such questions should not be left to the general public tbh; for that you have a gov in place ;)
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>that's why we still have no constitution
08:16<Celestar>I'm not sure I _want_ the population to decide some things.
08:17<Celestar>*cough* Stuttgart 21 for example *cough*
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>i finally want my A143!!
08:17<TrueBrain>oeh, Call Of Duty MW3 is slowly leaking ...
08:17*TrueBrain waits impatiently
08:21<Eddi|zuHause> <-- "don't read this blog with a full mouth" :p
08:24<MNIM>now I have done some horrible stuff to my PCs, but spaghetti?
08:24<__ln__>poor lenovo
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08:36<Celestar>my comp refuses to download that :P
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>Celestar: some kind of webfilter?
08:36<Celestar>nah just a dropped conn :P
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09:13<Celestar>michi_cc: what is and what isn't already working with your map rewrite?
09:14<Celestar>yo Belugas
09:16<@Belugas>hi hi captain:)
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10:25<Celestar>good the line's not dead
10:36<Celestar>What. The. Fuck.
10:36<Celestar>me: "Could you give me a login to <host>?" - "Yeah, but we use ssh keys" - me "Fine I send you my key" - "Nono, we need to send YOU the key"
10:37<__ln__>was that in soviet russia?
10:37<Celestar>me: "What?" - "Yeah, we have only one key configured for login. We send the private key around to everyone who logs in"
10:37<__ln__>sounds safe.
10:37<Celestar>so ... he e-mailed me the private key O_o
10:37<Celestar>WTS [clue]
10:38<TrueBrain>that is a new method I guess ...
10:38<TrueBrain>for elite people
10:39<+glx>they are very smart indeed :)
10:39<Celestar>apparently, maintaining 30 public keys is "too much effort"
10:39<Rubidium>it's much safer, after all... there will only be one private key that can be comprised instead of 30
10:39<Celestar>yeah :P
10:39<Celestar>what's there to MAINTAIN?
10:40<+glx>and you send the key back we they ask it ?
10:40<__ln__>*ask for
10:40<@planetmaker>hehe ;-)
10:41<+glx>it's so hard to append a public key in a text file
10:41<@planetmaker>very hard
10:41<frosch123>but the key is missing one leg
10:42<TrueBrain>well, it is true, maintaining public keys is harder than sharing private keys
10:43<TrueBrain>but if you share private keys ... just allow anonymous access :P
10:43<+glx>indeed it's not easy to remove a public key
10:43<+glx>(at least finding the one to remove)
10:45<@planetmaker>depends whether you added a small, trailing note whom it belongs to...
10:46<Celestar>fact is, they're just nubs
10:47<Celestar>and have nfi what they are talking bout
10:47<@planetmaker> <-- but even that key adding and removing can be simplified to adding or removing a file and calling that script ;-)
10:57<@peter1138>Celestar, i had similar with PGP :S
10:58<Celestar>why do most people not take pride in their friggen work?
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11:58<Eddi|zuHause>my experience is that often the amount of pride people take in their work is antiproportional to the value of their work
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12:48<Qantourisc>Hello, I was reading about FIRS but i was confused
12:49<@planetmaker>can we un-confuse you?
12:49<@planetmaker>my best bet is: play with it ;-)
12:49<Qantourisc>planetmaker: :) the supply station thing has me confused
12:50<@planetmaker>supply station?
12:50<Qantourisc>i think i get it now
12:50<Qantourisc>"The FIRS manual suggests using transfer orders to deliver engineering or farm supplies a few at a time in smaller vehicles."
12:50<Qantourisc>so frequent delivery
12:50<@planetmaker>ah. That. Yes
12:50<Qantourisc>what intreges me more:
12:50<Qantourisc>"manual" ? where :)
12:51<@planetmaker>the idea is: bring supplies to an area in a train (=large volume) to a station. That station must not accept those supplies
12:51<Qantourisc>also firs the best ? or are there better ?
12:51<@planetmaker>use transfer orders. And then vehicles to deliver small amounts to the industries nearby
12:51<Qantourisc>yes, i get it now
12:51<Qantourisc>i just didn't understand why yet
12:52<@planetmaker>primary industries only have a chance to increase production, if they get supplies
12:52<@planetmaker>delivering small amounts gives you that chance for more industries and more months
12:52<@planetmaker>as supplies are usually not that abundant
12:53<Qantourisc>aa there is also ecs
12:54<Qantourisc>You can't combine them i quess ? :)
12:54<@planetmaker>you can't. indeed
12:54<Qantourisc>where is the docu on firs ?
12:55<@planetmaker>the wiki page you probably already found
12:55<@planetmaker>ecs has a MUCH more extensive docu
12:55<@planetmaker>but... most things you also get by looking at the industry chain ingame
12:55<Qantourisc>witch one has the most complex game ? :)
12:55<Qantourisc>a ok
12:55<Qantourisc>i'll do that
12:55<@planetmaker>equal but different
12:57<Qantourisc>a ok
12:57<Qantourisc>then i'll play them both :)
12:58<Qantourisc>dam fics backlinks :)
12:59<Qantourisc>witch is good :)
13:03<Eddi|zuHause>@calc 310/7
13:03<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 44.2857142857
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13:40<Qantourisc>How do you get rid of ghost stations ?
13:40<Qantourisc>ow ok it disapears by itself
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13:44*Rubidium wonders where software is built from if it isn't build from (some sort of) code
13:47<TrueBrain>Rubidium: cubicals?
13:47<Qantourisc>planetmaker: what do i need to load petrol ?
13:47<@planetmaker>a wagon / vehicle / ship /aircraft which allows to be refitted to petrol
13:48<@planetmaker>i.e. the default vehicles won't allow that, unfortunately
13:49<@planetmaker>if you don't want too many other changes, I recommend to use ogfx+trains, ogfx+road vehicles and fish (as ships)
13:50<Rubidium>what? not ogfx+ships? ;)
13:51<@planetmaker>:-) That's recommended, too, of course
13:52<@planetmaker>in 2014 or so ;-)
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14:09<Qantourisc>planetmaker: i need ofdx stuff then ?
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14:34<@Belugas>god... i want to go home... i don't like that day at all...
14:35<@Belugas>i just want to sit down, drink and stare at the tv
14:35<@Belugas>The Walking Dead, tahyt wold be fun to watch :)
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14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23081 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/maltese.txt:
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: maltese - 1 changes by kelinu
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15:02<@peter1138>i like maltesers
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15:20<appe>they are nice
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15:33<z-MaTRiX>hi and watzup?
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15:46<andythenorth>was there a conclusive answer on whether I should use cb15 or cb36 for capacity?
15:46<andythenorth>both seem to be defective
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: in CETS we use CB15 and set our own multiplicators
15:47<andythenorth>so you keep a list of all known cargos?
15:47<andythenorth>and you detect which set is defining them?
15:47<andythenorth>and how the author has chosen to set cargo mutliplier?
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>no, we just randomly set some :)
15:48<andythenorth>so you have mailbags that change weight?
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>currently we have multiplicator *4 for mail, *2 for goods, and /2 for tourists
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>maybe we also do /2 or /4 for ENSP
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>or /3
15:49<andythenorth>but in some cases mail is *2
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but imho that's too low
15:49<andythenorth>you've basically chosen to ignore the mess :P
15:49<andythenorth>or add to it :P
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>yes :)
15:49<andythenorth>it's a mess
15:49<andythenorth>I wish I could fix it
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>i find it annoying to have more than one mail carriage per train
15:54<andythenorth>so how much does 1t of mailbags weigh in your set? :P
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>don't know if we can actually override that
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17:25<Sacro>when using UKRS, how do I disable the default trains?
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>don't use a GRF that re-adds them
17:26<Sacro>hmm, also seem to have DBSet stuff :\
17:28<z-MaTRiX>ok im back in ASM programming
17:28<z-MaTRiX>and learning Haskell too
17:28<z-MaTRiX>exact opposites? :)
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17:38<andythenorth>cargo tram
17:42<andythenorth>electric trolley trucks:
17:46*andythenorth redraws things just for Eddi|zuHause :P
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18:09<CIA-6>OpenTTD: rubidium * r23082 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix: account for snow line table when determining the snow line for building houses
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18:32<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Semi-random question for today: Though about using cargo_unit_weight to modify the cargo capacities for unknown cargo types for CETS vehicles?
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: no, that hasn't crossed my mind, i'll look at it
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20:36<z-MaTRiX>physics still not cool
20:40<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc: follow up question: how can i determine the cargo class? if i use the cargo weight calculation like proposed, i need an exception for the passenger cargo class (if that's not possible then i'll need to do some restructuring in the code generator instead)
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20:40<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Var 47 has that info as well, not sure where NML put it.
20:41<+michi_cc>Eddi|zuHause: Looks like cargo_classes in NML
20:41<Eddi|zuHause>oh, must have missed that in the list
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 03 00:00:50 2011