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#openttd IRC Logs for 2011-11-05

---Logopened Sat Nov 05 00:00:53 2011
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03:15<Terkhen>good morning
03:15<Terkhen>Rob110178: signalling is confusing... I learned by checking examples at the openttd and openttdcoop wikis
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03:43<Qantourisc>What font-types does openttd eat ?
03:43<Qantourisc>xfonts type or ?
03:48<Qantourisc>ok freefonts too nice
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03:58<andythenorth>wtf
03:58<andythenorth>auto-refit
03:58<andythenorth>:o
03:58*andythenorth smells a FISH update soon
04:03<@planetmaker>and heqs!
04:03<@planetmaker>moin also :-)
04:03-!-Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd
04:04<@planetmaker>but auto-update is VERY awesome
04:04<@planetmaker>*auto-refit
04:06<@planetmaker>hm... conditional orders now need additions ideally: if cargo==GOOD goto <blah>
04:06<@planetmaker>if cargo==FMSP goto <blub>
04:07<Eddi|zuHause>don't think that's a workable idea (gameplay wise)
04:07<Eddi|zuHause>what if half the wagons are GOOD and the other half FMSP?
04:08<@planetmaker>it'd need options like "at least one wagon" and "all wagons", similar to full load all and full load any
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04:09<@planetmaker>and I think it's a workable idea. Like when I pickup cargos A and B, then I want to bring them to their respective destinations A' and B'
04:09<@planetmaker>so I want to check whether I have to go to A' and B' or only one of them
04:10<Eddi|zuHause>i rather see autorefit in the context of cargo destinations
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04:10<Eddi|zuHause>then the cargo decides whether the train goes in the right direction, not the train
04:11<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see it useful without
04:12<@planetmaker>with destinations it's even more useful. But I see much use also without
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04:12<@planetmaker>like when you bring cargo from a transfer station to a ore smelter or so
04:13<Eddi|zuHause>question: can autorefit change individual vehicles of an articulated consist (e.g. 2-part tram can be half passengers, half tourist, or heqs tram with individual cargo for each wagon)?
04:14<@planetmaker>it can change individual wagons. Not sure about articulated parts
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04:18<andythenorth>so auto-refit chooses the most waiting cargo?
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>i'd rather have it some-of-everything
04:20<andythenorth>there's no look ahead in the station list to see if the loaded cargo is accepted?
04:20<andythenorth>so I can load coal at A, and ship it meaninglessly between A and B :)
04:20<Eddi|zuHause>no, that only works with cargo destinations
04:21<andythenorth>acceptance doesn't demand cargo destinations
04:21<andythenorth>look in the station acceptance
04:21<Eddi|zuHause>but you'd break feeder systems then
04:21<andythenorth>yes
04:21<andythenorth>true
04:21<andythenorth>could be a different style of gameplay...
04:22<andythenorth>I can see the obvious applications of this with destinations
04:22<andythenorth>trying to figure how it works with non-destination games
04:22<andythenorth>I should just patch FISH for it :P
04:22<andythenorth>no time right now
04:22<andythenorth>either way, it's nice :)
04:23<andythenorth>more evidence for OpenTTD Is Clearly Not Dying :D
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04:23<@planetmaker>andythenorth: you can also station-refit to an explicitly chosen cargo
04:23<@planetmaker>instead of available cargo
04:24<andythenorth>that has been much-discussed before :)
04:24<andythenorth>it is good
04:24<@planetmaker>and if there's less cargo combined from types A and B, both will be carried, if individual parts can be refit
04:24<@planetmaker>as said, not sure about articulated. But for trains it works
04:24<@planetmaker>if non-articulated
04:24*andythenorth wonders who's working on partial-refit for ships :P
04:25<@planetmaker>hehe
04:25<andythenorth>planetmaker: from reading the diff, I think it's unlikely to work with articulated road vehicles
04:25<andythenorth>(for partial refit)
04:25<andythenorth>but refit-at-station is still good
04:25<andythenorth>especially for ships
04:26<@planetmaker>for every vehicle
04:26<@planetmaker>why should I go to a depot when I want to load tractors instead of bulldozers?
04:26<@planetmaker>Or fuel oil barrels instead of oil barrels?
04:27<andythenorth>indeed
04:29<andythenorth>fmsp -> farm -> refit to wool etc
04:29<@planetmaker>yup
04:29<@planetmaker>very sensible suddenly
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04:43<@planetmaker>and it makes not-updated NewGRFs IMHO much less attractive to play with...
04:43<@planetmaker>a side-effect which is if mixed quality
04:43<@Alberth>hi planetmaker
04:44<@planetmaker>though... probably much more positive than bad.
04:44<@planetmaker>good morning Alberth
04:44<andythenorth>hmm
04:44<@Alberth>hi andy :)
04:44<andythenorth>a set of shiny new features could be cause for a lot of newgrf updates
04:45<andythenorth>what backwards compatibility might we want to get rid of for v8? :)
04:45<andythenorth>what's causing trouble?
04:46<@planetmaker>andythenorth: ...http://rbijker.net/openttd/misc/changelog.txt <-- 10 days old or so
04:46<@planetmaker>changes in trunk wrt stable
04:46<@planetmaker>80% NewGRF ;-)
04:46<andythenorth>we debated something a few months ago at length
04:47<andythenorth>something that would be desirable, but break older grfs
04:47<andythenorth>I forget what
04:47<@planetmaker>the grfv8 thread might be the place to not it :-)
04:47<@planetmaker>hight levels?
04:47<andythenorth>no
04:47<@planetmaker>*height
04:47<andythenorth>not that
04:47<@peter1138>road types
04:47<@peter1138>vehicles in vehicles
04:47<andythenorth>that breaks older grfs? :o
04:47<@peter1138>multistop docks
04:47<andythenorth>:P
04:48<andythenorth>peter1138: you are a bot imitating me
04:48<andythenorth>might have been something to do with changing grfs in game
04:48<andythenorth>which is still a bad idea
04:48<andythenorth>but not being able to change parameters in game is also a bad idea
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04:48<andythenorth>maybe I suggested removing the ability for grfs to disable
04:49<andythenorth>that is a bad idea too
04:49<@peter1138>you can change parameters in game, with the appropriate setting, can't you?
04:49<andythenorth>I can yes
04:49<andythenorth>'normals' can't
04:49<@peter1138>well then
04:49<andythenorth>maybe I proposed changing cargo class definitions
04:49<andythenorth>that would be an interesting bunfight with MB
04:50<andythenorth>hmm
04:50<andythenorth>whatever it was, I think planetmaker even sent me a pm about it
04:50<andythenorth>or maybe I just suggested banning newgrfs that weren't GPL
04:51<@planetmaker>:-D
04:51<@planetmaker>cargo classes...
04:51*andythenorth has memory of a rabbiy
04:52<@peter1138>there are 8 fixed cargo classes
04:52<@peter1138>you can use the rest how you see fit
04:53<@peter1138>of course, not if you want compatibility ;)
04:53<@peter1138>but the upper 8 is not part of the spec, so no spec change is needed
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05:05<Elukka>awww yeah
05:05<Elukka>http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Mun.png
05:05<Elukka>kerbal space program has a moon now!
05:10<Qantourisc>Why is openttd so easy on the money ?
05:10<Qantourisc>once you get rolling
05:10<Qantourisc>it gets out of control
05:12<@planetmaker>did you try how easy it is on a 128^2 map?
05:14<Elukka>because it doesn't really model business
05:15<Elukka>if you just make things more expensive all it will do is slightly postpone that part of the game where you have practically infinite money
05:15<Elukka>there was a project for a new business model but i don't think anything came out of it
05:16<Elukka>i think it'd be interesting
05:19<@planetmaker>Qantourisc: you can also employ a base cost newgrf which allows to adjust costs and running costs in a manner to increase the challange
05:21<@Alberth>Elukka: it is far from trivial; you need to make money otherwise you cannot play. Once you can make money, it is inevitable you make more money when you grow.
05:21<@Alberth>Elukka: in other words, you need a new element that hits you harder as you grow
05:21<Elukka>yeah
05:21<Elukka>it's all but trivial
05:21<Elukka>real business, as well as games with a more elaborate business model, retain challenge even after you have a big company :P
05:22<Elukka>i don't even know how you'd do it though
05:24<@peter1138>in theory, competition would affect your profits
05:24<@peter1138>but it doesn't :P
05:24<Elukka>yeah but it's far from the only factor
05:25<@Alberth>peter1138: in MP, it might
05:25<@peter1138>it doesn't
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05:32<@planetmaker>it does. A little
05:33<@planetmaker>depends on how "friendly" the competition is.
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05:46<andythenorth>hmm
05:46*andythenorth ponders evil
05:46<andythenorth>flag to prevent a ship entering locks
05:47<andythenorth>e.g. for large ships
05:47<andythenorth>this would force the building of sea level routes, or smaller ships
05:47<@planetmaker>rather prevent running on rivers then
05:48<andythenorth>that's plausible too
05:48<andythenorth>although I can do that with speed fraction
05:48<andythenorth>(might suck)
05:49<Qantourisc>hmmm
05:49<Qantourisc>I think the best thread to your money is breaking trains :)
05:50<Qantourisc>and a bigger penality for not having your network running smooth
05:53<Qantourisc>I think the best course is making sure you only get a slim profit.
05:53<Qantourisc>But yes competition too would be nice.
05:53<Qantourisc>problem with them is ... they build a lot in the way :)
05:53<Qantourisc>And there is no track-renting to solve that :)
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05:55*andythenorth is currently excited about working on FISH and HEQS :)
05:55<@planetmaker>:-)
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06:04<Wolf01>hello
06:05<andythenorth>lo
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06:06*andythenorth however does not have enough hours per day for working on FISH and HEQS :o
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06:09<andythenorth>hmm
06:09*andythenorth missed r22293
06:09<andythenorth>now I have to work on CHIPS too :o
06:09<Terkhen>bbl
06:10<andythenorth>hmm
06:10<Wolf01>I read "chimps" gah...
06:10<andythenorth>maybe I forgot it rather than missed it
06:10<andythenorth>CHIPS supports it
06:11<@Alberth>one done, two to go :)
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06:15<__ln__>it's the 5th of november
06:16<andythenorth>fireworks grf?
06:16<andythenorth>newobject, animated palette
06:16-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6AE24.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
06:17<__ln__>gunpowder cargo
06:18<@planetmaker>I still like alberth's suggestion: 1 cargo unit produced every 5 years. Transportable only in a very expensive container with vmax = 5km/h. Delivery revenue... like rotten cheese
06:20<@Alberth>__ln__: sparkles mine in toyland
06:22<@planetmaker>:-)
06:22<andythenorth>planetmaker: sounds like nuclear fuel :P
06:23<@planetmaker>:-P
06:23<@planetmaker>obviously it was also clear without re-citing the cargo name :-)
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06:23<@planetmaker>cookie for andy :-P
06:24<andythenorth>an oft-suggested cargo
06:24<andythenorth>never implemented
06:24*andythenorth wonders what's wrong with cargo classes
06:24<andythenorth>bulk
06:24<@Alberth>hence my realistic suggestion :)
06:25<andythenorth>http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Cargos#CargoClasses_.2816.29
06:25*andythenorth wonders if FIRS sets bit 10 for any cargos
06:25<andythenorth>or bit 8
06:27<@planetmaker>probably not
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06:28<andythenorth>hmm
06:29<@Alberth>do we even have such cargo?
06:29<@planetmaker>nope
06:29<andythenorth>maybe we should
06:29<andythenorth>chemicals are hazardous?
06:29<@planetmaker>only as add-on, IMHO
06:29<andythenorth>as is petrol
06:30<@planetmaker>though... chemicals as hazardous.... Might make sense
06:30<@planetmaker>petrol... maybe... not sure
06:30<andythenorth>are they OR or AND when refitting?
06:30<@planetmaker>depends
06:30<andythenorth>on the refit masks...?
06:30<@planetmaker>classes AND NOT other classes XOR cargos
06:31<@planetmaker>yup
06:31<andythenorth>adding hazardous allows set authors to do things like restrict speed when carrying chemicals
06:31<andythenorth>or force the use of barrier wagons in trains
06:31<@planetmaker>true
06:31<@planetmaker>barrier wagon? Never heart that
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06:32<andythenorth>http://forum.railroadforum.com/lofiversion/index.php?t14859.html
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06:35<andythenorth>also,the spec implies that FMSP and ENSP probably must have bit 10 set
06:35<andythenorth>"industrial equipment, machinery"
06:42<Qantourisc>My trains are ignoring the service stations ...
06:42<Qantourisc>why ?
06:43<@Yexo>you disabled breakdowns and servicing when breakdowns are off, or they are too far from the track
06:44<Qantourisc>Yexo: they are a sidetrack
06:44<@Yexo>so to far from the normal tracks
06:44<@planetmaker>depot look-ahead is 20(?) tiles or so
06:44<Qantourisc>oooow
06:44<Qantourisc>i'm over 20 :)
06:44<@Alberth>without signals :)
06:45<Qantourisc>so how do i up that ?
06:45<@Alberth>are your trains that long ?
06:45<Qantourisc>currently i made room, so the 1 train can sit before the depot
06:45<Qantourisc>and not block the rest
06:45<Qantourisc>case 1 is leaving
06:46<@Alberth>you really have trains of 20 tiles length? insane :p
06:47<@Yexo>Qantourisc: if you give your trains "service at" orders they only go to that depot and only when they need service
06:47<@Yexo>the lookahead distance doesn't apply in that case
06:47<Qantourisc>hmm
06:47<Qantourisc>Alberth: no they are 7 long
06:48<@Alberth>right, so what are the other 13 tiles for?
06:48<Qantourisc>distance between side track is 11
06:48<Qantourisc>So it's a V split.
06:48<Qantourisc>and 11 units later you have your depot
06:49<Qantourisc>maybe it's the signals blocking the detection ?
06:50<@Alberth>sounds very largish to me, but then again, I just put the depot directly at the main line :)
06:50<@Alberth>signals also count as obstacles, which are translated to 'tiles' eventually
06:50<Qantourisc>hmmm i'll try the lights
06:51<@Alberth>there are very likely discussions about this problem at the forum
06:51<@Alberth>I don't know whether it is in the FAQ, perhaps it should be added (hint, hint :) )
06:53<Qantourisc>without the signals it works
06:53<Qantourisc>i'd do it ... but i have NO idea how it really works :/
06:54<@Alberth>the path-finder tries to find a path to a depot every now and then (when a train needs it) upto some max distance. Tiles count as distance, as do other obstacles, such as signals
06:55<@Alberth>if the path finder cannot find a depot within range, it is assumed none is around, and some time later it is tried again
06:58<Qantourisc>Ok that i can add :)
07:01<Qantourisc>now waiting on password reset mail :)
07:13<andythenorth>what is the correct cargo class for logs?
07:13<andythenorth>or sugar cane?
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07:18*andythenorth wonders why cargo classes are such a mess
07:18<andythenorth>the ontology of cargo classes is a car crash
07:19<andythenorth>they conflate properties of cargos and properties of vehicles
07:19<andythenorth>which is why they're so inadequate
07:19<andythenorth>can we fix them for grf v8?
07:20<andythenorth>'express' is a property of the cargo, but 'covered' is a property of the vehicle
07:21<andythenorth>'refrigerated' is a property of the vehicle, but 'suitable for pouring' is a property of the cargo
07:21<andythenorth>'armored' is a property of the vehicle, but 'hazardous' is a property of the cargo
07:22<andythenorth>the proposal to layer in new refit callbacks could solve this, but classes are still a horrible mess
07:22<andythenorth>are we stuck with this because nobody wants to argue with MB?
07:23<andythenorth>I know he's going to brandish UIC codes and send me to some catalogue of DB wagon types if we raise this, but it's just a mess
07:23<Qantourisc>Alberth: amen
07:23<Qantourisc>euuu
07:23<Qantourisc>andythenorth: amen
07:25<@Alberth>andythenorth: but you can read 'refrigerated' as a 'must-be-kept-cold' cargo property.
07:26<Qantourisc>There is still shape ...
07:26<@Alberth>ie the terminology may be somewhat wrong only
07:26<Qantourisc>BTW refitting a good idea ?
07:27<@peter1138>cargo classes describe how the cargo is transported
07:27<@peter1138>well, not describe, but relate to
07:27<andythenorth>they only 50% work
07:28<@peter1138>you're misinterpreting them i think
07:29<andythenorth>hmm
07:29<andythenorth>I'm trying my best
07:29<andythenorth>I've been doing this a while :P
07:29<andythenorth>I've made a few vehicles
07:29<andythenorth>I'd be happy to be set straight :)
07:30<@Yexo><Alberth> andythenorth: but you can read 'refrigerated' as a 'must-be-kept-cold' cargo property. <- not all current sets interpret it that way
07:31<andythenorth>what class is scrap metal?
07:31<@Alberth>the specs are ambiguous thus
07:31<andythenorth>possibly the problem is that classes are fine for the common cases
07:32<andythenorth>i.e. a range of DB railway vehicles which they were invented for
07:32<andythenorth>they only fail on edge cases, so maybe only 10%
07:32<@Alberth>perhaps you have a new kind of cargo
07:32<andythenorth>I am the one with all the edge cases :P
07:32<andythenorth>I have a vehicle set which is pretty much all edge cases
07:32<andythenorth>and we've pushed cargo ideas a bit with FIRS
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07:33<@Alberth>that's how you make progress :)
07:33<@Alberth>but life sucks at the front line :(
07:33<andythenorth>I could just declare FIRS 'winner' and only claim vehicle support in my sets for FIRS and default
07:33<andythenorth>but that wasn't the point of classes
07:34<andythenorth>they're supposed to provide a dream of interoparability and forward compatibility
07:34<andythenorth>they don't
07:34<@Alberth>unfortunately, reality kicked in :p
07:34<@Yexo>it's easy enough to properly support firs + default and all other cargos only via the cargoclasses
07:34<@peter1138>they're specified for the default cargos
07:34<andythenorth>so what will actually happen is that I will get maintenance requests for my vehicle sets
07:34<@Yexo>that means all other cargos might be transported in wrong wagons, but at least your set is able to transport them
07:35<@peter1138>anything that doesn't fit into the default classes should get a new class that you decide
07:35<@peter1138>that's the point o_O
07:35<andythenorth>if we add rice to FIRS for example, I have to update HEQS
07:35<andythenorth>that might be wholly unavoidable tbh
07:35<@Yexo>why would you HEQS have to be updated precisely? is rice not transportable or doesn't it have special graphics?
07:35<andythenorth>rice doesn't travel by mining truck
07:36<@Yexo>but you can transport it
07:36<andythenorth>I am probably stuck maintaining that tbh
07:36<andythenorth>mining trucks are an edge case
07:36<@Yexo>transporting it in the proper wagons cannot be done by cargoclasses as they're defined now
07:36<@Alberth>did you ever try it the other way around, design cargo classes without bothering what exists, and see what you change?
07:36<andythenorth>yes
07:36<andythenorth>I basically add some splits to bulk
07:37<andythenorth>make it explicit when a cargo can be transported by hopper
07:37<andythenorth>make it explicit when a cargo needs stakes or similar (logs, sugar cane)
07:37<andythenorth>the rest works and wouldn't change much
07:37<andythenorth>but cargo classes are not mutable
07:37<andythenorth>we're stuck with them no?
07:37<@Yexo>there are a few bits free, so a few classes can be added
07:38<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: ^ you had useful thoughts on this previously
07:38<andythenorth>we had problems like how to transport cement (silo wagons), and such like
07:39<andythenorth>there are cargos that need gondolas, but can't be put through a hopper (scrap metal)
07:39<@peter1138>you can make a cargo class for "requires stakes"
07:39<@peter1138>there are 8 fixed cargo classes
07:39<andythenorth>bits 11-14 are free?
07:40<@peter1138>bits 8-15
07:40<andythenorth>what happened to 8-9-10?
07:40<andythenorth>spec says they're used
07:40<@peter1138>they're "commonly used", but not part of any code
07:40<andythenorth>are classes actually present in ottd code? or a convention?
07:41<@Yexo>cargo classes are only useful if multiple sets support them. So changing 8-9-10 is not really an option
07:41*andythenorth needs to remember how refits work again
07:42<andythenorth>there's a difference between 'compatible with' and 'requires'
07:42<@peter1138>andythenorth, classes 0-7 are used in the default set of cargos
07:42<andythenorth>ok thanks
07:43<andythenorth>I'm ignoring the HEQS mining trucks as an edge
07:43<andythenorth>case
07:43<@peter1138>it's a shame they're not 32 bit
07:43<andythenorth>grf v8...
07:44<andythenorth>is there even a conceptual solution to the mining trucks?
07:44<andythenorth>hmm
07:44<andythenorth>so the issue is they should only carry minerals, not agricultural cargos
07:44<andythenorth>so someone adds rice, I have to add it to my CTT and mask it out
07:44<andythenorth>someone adds grapes, same
07:44-!-frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc098.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd
07:44<andythenorth>someone adds olives, same
07:45<@Yexo>or you do it the other way around and only explicitely minierals
07:45<andythenorth>could do
07:45<andythenorth>then someone adds phosphates, I need to update HEQS
07:45<@Yexo>of course you'd have the same problem if someone added a new mineral cargo
07:45<andythenorth>I can file this under edge case, unless we extend cargo attributes
07:46<andythenorth>If we extend cargo attributes some of the 'conceptual' cargos like goods and supplies get....a lot of classes
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07:49*andythenorth needs to be smarter
07:49<andythenorth>drawing pixels does not require being smart
07:49<@peter1138>add a "food" class
07:49<andythenorth>hmm
07:49<andythenorth>that is interesting
07:49<@peter1138>then disallow all food
07:49<andythenorth>should town buildings have supported classes?
07:50<andythenorth>the convention is that industry set defines cargos, but not also houses
07:50<andythenorth>which must be....interesting for house set authors
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07:52<andythenorth>I started thinking about this because of the new auto-refit & cb
07:52<andythenorth>if I have a tanker carrying milk, can it refit to petrol?
07:52<andythenorth>at the station?
07:52<andythenorth>for £0?
07:53<andythenorth>both are liquid...
07:53<@planetmaker>if you set refit costs to 0 and allow station-refit: then yes
07:53<@planetmaker>it's the newgrf author's choice
07:53<andythenorth>yes
07:53<andythenorth>so should I allow it?
07:53<@planetmaker>I would not allow that. Only the other way around
07:53<andythenorth>if my open wagon has carried coal, can it now carry grain?
07:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: how would you allow / prevent it?
07:54<andythenorth>reliably
07:54<@planetmaker>dirty->dirty: yes. clean->dirty: yes. dirty->clean: no. clean->clean: yes, but at (reduced) cost
07:54<@planetmaker>andythenorth: via callback
07:54<@planetmaker>and looking at all possible cargos. See my posting. Or ogfx+trains
07:54<@Yexo>why clean->clean at reduced cost but not dirty->dirty?
07:54<andythenorth>you can't look at all possible cargos
07:54<@planetmaker>that's for free, Yexo
07:54<andythenorth>you don't know the future
07:55<@Yexo>ah :)
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07:55<@planetmaker>that's what I showed you yesterday
07:56<@planetmaker>indeed I don't know the future. Depends on what you want. One might allow it at a cost
07:56<@planetmaker>But one can easily treat all existing cargos
07:57<andythenorth>that implies you think cargo classes are inadequate...
07:57<@Yexo>of course the current cargo classes are inadequate. Didn't you come to that very same conclusion?
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07:58<andythenorth>I am not always right
07:59<andythenorth>quite often I have a delusion
08:01<@planetmaker>andythenorth: a class like 'food' additionally might solve the 'clean' or 'dirty' problem
08:01<andythenorth>'foodstuffs' is how it's handled in the uk - on tanker wagons
08:01<@planetmaker>though I'm not sure 'food' is good. I'd not mind plant fibres in that, too
08:01<andythenorth>are plant fibres bulk?
08:01<@planetmaker>but coal or ore... is different. Yes, they can
08:02<andythenorth>what happens when you have transported fish, then refit to clothes?
08:02<@planetmaker>:-) smelly cotton
08:02<@planetmaker>fish is not bulk, but piece
08:02<@planetmaker>so it doesn't matter. I replace one box by another
08:03<@planetmaker>i.e. for the piece cargos I allow to replace one for the other w/o cost nor trouble
08:03<andythenorth>piece cargos are generally problem free
08:03<@planetmaker>except when the wagon needs modifications, like boxes -> vehicles
08:07<andythenorth>are vehicles really piece goods?
08:07<andythenorth>"any unitised cargo, packed or unpacked"
08:07<andythenorth>is a log unitised?
08:08<andythenorth>is a piece of coal unitisied?
08:08<andythenorth>unitised to me implies anything that is not a fluid or gas
08:08<andythenorth>i.e. unitised just means "doesn't flow"
08:09<@peter1138>you're still going on about this?
08:09<andythenorth>yup
08:10<andythenorth>still confused :)
08:10<andythenorth>either I'm crap or the spec is crap, or this is a lot of fuss about nothing
08:10<andythenorth>now that OzTrans has flounced off in a storm of handbags, I need to take up his role
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08:12<@planetmaker>andythenorth: the difference is much and many ;-)
08:12<@planetmaker>You Englishmen have that distinction. I only have viel(e)
08:12<@peter1138>now?
08:12<andythenorth>planetmaker: that is a nice way of putting it :)
08:13<@peter1138>has he flounced again?
08:13<andythenorth>peter1138: well quite recently
08:13<andythenorth>I had a chat with danmack, canset has been abandoned by oztrans
08:13<andythenorth>he was probably the only one left using the patch
08:13<andythenorth>well him and wallyweb, and wallyweb mostly uses ottd now iirc
08:14<andythenorth>so oztrans has been crafting an awesome set for...himself
08:14<andythenorth>only now he isn't
08:14<andythenorth>so danmack is left with a lot of sprites and no set
08:14<@planetmaker>:-(
08:14<andythenorth>but Pikka is going to fix it I think
08:14<andythenorth>basically NARS 2 code -> Canset
08:14<andythenorth>is my understanding
08:14<andythenorth>which is exciting
08:15<@planetmaker>he should call it CATS ;-)
08:15<andythenorth>maybe he will
08:15<andythenorth>suggest it :P
08:15<andythenorth>anyway, I am actually trying to write down new classes here
08:15<@planetmaker>I didn't know he works on it. As you talk with him about it... you go
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08:15<andythenorth>'foodstuffs' seems to be at least useful, not least with the new auto refitting
08:16<andythenorth>I can't figure out the bulk cargos quite
08:16<andythenorth>there's 'bulk and suitable for hoppers'
08:16<andythenorth>'bulk and requires stakes or cages or similar'
08:16<andythenorth>and just 'bulk' (goes in gondolas etc, anything with sides)
08:17<andythenorth>there's also technically 'liquid and suitable for hoppers'
08:17<Zuu>Can NewGRFs specify a time delay for auto refiting? (extra time that the vehicle has to stay in the station)
08:17<andythenorth>e.g. grain, plastic pellets, cement
08:17<andythenorth>are all fluids
08:17<@peter1138>CanSet v1.1 on Dec 25th
08:18<andythenorth>for patch only :P
08:18<@peter1138>not what the post says
08:18<@peter1138>no update after that
08:18<@Yexo>Zuu: no
08:19<andythenorth>peter1138: danmack seemed to think different ;)
08:19<andythenorth>oztrans has afaik 'left with no goodbyes'
08:19<andythenorth>not even a dramatic door slam
08:19<andythenorth>and of course...no code will be available or reusable
08:20<Zuu>So if a NewGRF want to provide time consuming refits, they have to be done in a depot. (not that they can specify a delay there, but it just takes some time to get into a depot)
08:21<andythenorth>Zuu: possibly the loading time could be adjusted?
08:22<Zuu>possible, I'm not the NewGRF ninja here :-)
08:22<andythenorth>cb36 can change load amount
08:22<andythenorth>if cb36 is called when auto-refitting, then it's probably possible
08:23<andythenorth>convoluted, but possible
08:23<@Yexo>andythenorth: but not dependent on whether a vehicle just refitted or not
08:23<andythenorth>hmm
08:23<@Yexo>as in the next station it'd still have a lower load time, so that's not what you want
08:23<andythenorth>and there's no per-vehicle storage
08:23<andythenorth>so previous cargo can't be stored
08:23<andythenorth>I think it's overkill anyway
08:25<andythenorth>if the string for FIRS Lumber was changed to Wood Products, would it be less confusing?
08:25<andythenorth>currently Lumber can travel by hopper wagons etc
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08:26<frosch123>do we need a "clean" cargo class?
08:26<andythenorth>"clean" could work
08:26<andythenorth>provides for foodstuffs, cotton etc
08:26<frosch123>btw. andy: isn't "bulk+oversized" vs. "bulk+not-oversized" what you are always complaniing about?
08:26<andythenorth>frosch123: pretty much
08:27<andythenorth>I think it's entirely solvable within classes, I'm just not smart enough to figure out how
08:27<andythenorth>"clean" is a great class for determining refit cost
08:27<@planetmaker>'clean' would make sense from my POV
08:27<@Yexo>frosch123: from the current descriptio of the classes "bulk + oversized" seems nonsense
08:28<andythenorth>'foodstuffs' or 'clean' solve a chunk of my current gripes
08:29<andythenorth>I don't understand 'oversized'
08:29<andythenorth>the intention is totally unclear
08:30<frosch123>i thought of scrap metal as bulk+oversized
08:30<andythenorth>how many industry sets are going to add 'transformers'
08:30<andythenorth>(the electrical devices, not the comic franchise'
08:30<@Yexo>does scrap metal need another means of transportation than coal?
08:30<andythenorth>maybe, maybe not
08:31<frosch123>imo a open hopper can transport oversized stuff. a boxvan or self-discharging hopper cannot
08:31<@Yexo>hmm, true
08:31<@planetmaker>Yexo: depends on size :-)
08:31<andythenorth>how can you fit oversized stuff out the bottom of the hopper?
08:32<andythenorth>it would get stuck in the doors :)
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08:34<andythenorth>currently I don't set 'bulk' on scrap metal
08:34<andythenorth>it's piece goods
08:34<@Yexo>currently only GLAS and VEHI from ECS are defined as oversized
08:34<andythenorth>are VEHI also piece goods?
08:34<@Yexo>SCRP Scrap Metal 0010 Bulk FIRS <_ that's in the wiki
08:35<andythenorth>oops
08:35<@Yexo>VEHI are piece goods, oversized
08:35<andythenorth>so all vans in every set should be excluding 'oversized'
08:35<andythenorth>seems an odd class
08:35<andythenorth>I don't get it
08:36<@Yexo>well, it fits the description: "any cargo needing special means of transportation"
08:36<andythenorth>seems like a bad idea :)
08:36<andythenorth>I'm going to ignore that one
08:37<andythenorth>it looks like it's supposed to be similar to US railroad 'high wide' or 'dimensional load'
08:37<andythenorth>I can't think how it can be used meaningfully
08:37<frosch123>andythenorth: create a spreadsheet with all you vehicles and all cargos from the wiki
08:38<andythenorth>the wiki is out of spec from FIRS code wrt SCRP btw
08:38<frosch123>then define refittability for each combination and let some algorithm figure out the best cargo classes :p
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08:39<@Yexo>you can simply brute force that with a maximum of 16 cargoclasses
08:39<@Yexo>^^ or not
08:39<@Yexo>what was I thinking ? :p
08:40*andythenorth ponders defining coal etc as liquid
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08:40<@Yexo>very bad idea
08:40<Sigvatr>hi, i'm having a hard time trying to figure out a good strategy for multiplayer games
08:40<@Yexo>all default cargos should never change their cargo classes, or existing sets will break
08:41<Sigvatr>i guess you want to have all of your goods travel really far to their destination?
08:41<@Yexo>Sigvatr: how does a strategy for multiplayer games differ from a strategy for singleplayer games?
08:41<andythenorth>Yexo: it would at least solve the scrap metal problem :)
08:41<andythenorth>although coal would then travel by tanker :)
08:41<@Yexo>Sigvatr: and a strategy depends on what you want to do
08:42<@Yexo>if you want to make as much money as possible, yes, create as long lines as possible
08:43<Sigvatr>i haven't played single player before so i don't know what the difference is
08:45<Sigvatr>i've never played a tycoon game at all until this one yesterday
08:45<Sigvatr>it reminds me of atrain, did you ever play that?
08:47<Sigvatr>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-Train
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08:51<Zuu>At some distance there will be a maximum point when you will not make more mony but rather less by transporting the gods longer.
08:51<Zuu>goods*
08:51<Zuu>This is because the goods value decrease by time.
08:53<@Yexo>you'll make a little less per vehicle, but since you can have more vehicles I think overall you'll get more profit
08:55<andythenorth>hmm
08:55<andythenorth>so in english, 'bulk' and 'bulky' can have quite different meanings
08:56<andythenorth>and this is the core of my gripe
08:56<andythenorth>bulky does not either mean 'oversized'
08:58<andythenorth>so logs are bulky
08:58<andythenorth>scrap metal can be bulky
08:58<andythenorth>sugar cane is bulky
08:58<Sigvatr>how do you break up rail line "blocks"
08:58<Sigvatr>are they between signals?
08:59<andythenorth>these don't flow well in a hopper car: http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb167/rayw46/IMG_2606.jpg
08:59<andythenorth>nor do they travel by box car
09:00<frosch123>piecegoods + oversized imo
09:00<frosch123>i.e. they go with the same transporters as transformers :p
09:00<andythenorth>he :)
09:01<andythenorth>this does not flow, nor travel by box car
09:01<andythenorth>http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/Ensign/2010618173326_P6180068.jpg
09:01<andythenorth>maybe there should just be a class 'cargo'
09:01<andythenorth>:P
09:01<andythenorth>and all open / flat vehicles implement it
09:02<frosch123>that picture shows bulk+oversized
09:03<frosch123>imo "oversized" is just your "bulky"
09:03<andythenorth>frosch123: that will leave things like schnabel cars transporting wood
09:03<V453000>those models have some insane details :O
09:04<andythenorth>http://southern.railfan.net/schnabel/schnabel.html
09:04<andythenorth>^ not for wood
09:04<frosch123>not for transformers either
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09:05<frosch123>i guess the problem are only the current properties for cargo classes
09:06<frosch123>you can define a wagon to carry bulk and/or oversized stuff
09:06<frosch123>but you cannot define it to only carry oversized stuff that is bulk
09:06<andythenorth>I think the problem is probably solved by two or three new classes
09:06<@peter1138>cargo classes don't have properties :D
09:06<andythenorth>probably solvable without any spec change at all
09:07<andythenorth>we already have so much spec around cargos and classes that more is not desirable
09:07<andythenorth>at least, not without deprecating some
09:07<frosch123>i still favor my refittability callback :p
09:07<Elukka>bah. americans get functional model train couplers that look much like the real thing, and they don't have to deal with buffers and close coupler mechanisms!
09:07<frosch123>maybe i should just commit it
09:07<andythenorth>frosch123: I liked your callback
09:07<@peter1138>cargo class labels, heh
09:08<andythenorth>I can't remember how it would be used though :)
09:10<frosch123>andythenorth: it allows you to check each cargo individually using various attributes
09:10<frosch123>so you could actually code "oversized, but only when bulk"
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09:10<frosch123>or "piece goods, but only if the weight per piece is < 1 ton"
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09:18<andythenorth>frosch123: I think I could solve it with a new class, to be used for bulky cargos (or by abusing 'oversized')
09:18<andythenorth>no cb needed initially
09:18<andythenorth>but...
09:18<andythenorth>it has two problems
09:18<andythenorth>(1) we're not supposed to change default cargos
09:19<andythenorth>(2) I don't stand much chance of getting Pikka to change his sets :(
09:19<andythenorth>so a cb might help there
09:20<andythenorth>it shouldn't be 'bulk + oversized'
09:20<andythenorth>it should be 'piece + oversized'
09:20<andythenorth>or similar
09:21<andythenorth>bulk works for things like coal just fine
09:21<andythenorth>the confusion is that scrap metal, wood etc are not bulk
09:23<andythenorth>I think this is what the 'oversized' class was intended for: http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/railphotog/2010621181756_JD%20Tractor.jpg
09:24<andythenorth>hmm
09:25<andythenorth>'scrap metal does not travel by hopper' -> wrong :P http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/Rick/201062692537_ScrapMetalCar2.jpg
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09:30<andythenorth>what I can't figure is whether to extend 'bulk' to be more specific about fine cargos that can be poured in hoppers / silos
09:30<andythenorth>i.e. an additional class there
09:31<andythenorth>or better to have a new class used with piece goods, which vans etc can _exclude_
09:31<andythenorth>reusing or similar to oversized
09:32<andythenorth>e.g. this vehicle is only suitable for cargos that can be easily handled and stacked
09:32<andythenorth>I can't NOT for a cargo class can I
09:32<andythenorth>?
09:33<andythenorth>e.g. set scrap metal as NOT covered
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09:34<frosch123>you could also introduce bulk+piecegoods :p
09:34<@Yexo>you mean set it as "must not be covered"?
09:34<andythenorth>could be
09:35*andythenorth is reading this ticket, which concludes basically as 'shrug' and 'meh' http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1692
09:37<andythenorth>ultimately, if it takes this much figuring out, other vehicle set authors won't figure it out, unless Big Docs are written
09:37<andythenorth>and nobody reads Big Docs
09:38<@planetmaker>andythenorth: IMHO you have to let go the desire to treat *every* cargo 100% correct with a dozen cargo classes
09:38<@planetmaker>it's a rough classification. It must fail for some cases
09:39<@planetmaker>a cargoclass like 'clean' or 'foodish'... why not, might be for bulk a good addition.
09:39<@planetmaker>but 'must not be covered' is... funny
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09:40<@planetmaker>anything which needs cover should declare the class 'covered', too
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09:42<andythenorth>I can let go of that, but I'm still confused :P
09:42<andythenorth>are all cargos either bulk, unitised or liquid?
09:42<@planetmaker>what else could be there?
09:42<andythenorth>i.e. they must be in at least on of those sets
09:43<@planetmaker>I'd say "yes"
09:44<@planetmaker>then they can be in need of clean handling or don't care.
09:44<@planetmaker>then they can be in need of refrigeration or not care
09:45<@planetmaker>then they care about weather or not (=covered yes/no)
09:46<@planetmaker>so milk could be liquid+refrigerate+clean or it could be unitised+refrigerate(+clean)
09:46<andythenorth>and they can be oversized or not
09:46<@planetmaker>milk bottles? :-P
09:46<andythenorth>and if they're oversized they don't fit through small doors
09:46<@planetmaker>yes
09:47<andythenorth>so the problem is solved
09:47<andythenorth>entirely
09:47<andythenorth>except...
09:47<@planetmaker>so it*s 3+1+1+1+1 = 7
09:47<andythenorth>:)
09:47<@planetmaker>missing "hazardous"
09:48<andythenorth>so the problems are:
09:48<andythenorth>- we didn't set scrap metal as bulk, we should have
09:48<andythenorth>- few cargos are setting oversized when they should
09:48<@peter1138>what a palaver
09:48<andythenorth>:D
09:48<andythenorth>- vehicle set authors are not setting 'exclude oversized' when they should
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09:49<V453000>there is any hazardous cargo yet? :D
09:50<@planetmaker>for the reason "not used". Same there ^
09:50<@planetmaker>andythenorth: then FIRS could start using it
09:50<@planetmaker>for e.g. vehicles, fuel oil
09:50<andythenorth>well let's set 'clean' on bit 11
09:50<andythenorth>and start using hazardous
09:50<@planetmaker>I'd not attach it to crude oil
09:50<@planetmaker>And let's introduce the clean/foodish
09:50<andythenorth>crude oil is inert? :P
09:50<@planetmaker>mostly
09:50<frosch123>"hazardous" fits well with "must not be covered" :p
09:50<andythenorth>and move scrap to 'bulk'
09:51<andythenorth>most problems solved
09:51<andythenorth>and maybe possibly adjust the wiki to be more helpful, and imply a bit less that you should have been present on a german forum in 2006
09:51<andythenorth>which is kind of how it feels to me atm
09:53<@planetmaker>:-)
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09:53<andythenorth>planetmaker: are we allowed to set 'oversized' for wood?
09:54<andythenorth>as it's a default cargo, that's not permitted?
09:54<@planetmaker>difficult
09:54<@planetmaker>grf v8 ;-)
09:55<@planetmaker>might indeed be the point to adjust a few defaults there which are only communicated when the grf has v8.
09:55<@planetmaker>Not sure...
09:57<frosch123>no idea how that could be done in v8
09:57<frosch123>classes are not only used for refittability, but also in variables
09:58<@planetmaker>yes, it's a ... PITA
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10:00<@planetmaker>frosch123: my idea was to report changed default CC for grf >= v8
10:01<@planetmaker>it wouldn't matter for newgrf-defined CC for cargos
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10:02<@planetmaker>cargo-class translation table :-P
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10:06<Qantourisc>In the ship/train/car overview, what is the symbol under the number ?
10:07<frosch123>profit
10:08*andythenorth wonders why plant fibres are bulk
10:11<andythenorth>ah
10:11<Elukka>surely they are?
10:11<andythenorth>why?
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10:12<Elukka>they're a bulk cargo, no?
10:12<andythenorth>not sure
10:12<andythenorth>what's your reasoning :)
10:13<@Alberth>it'd be easy to chop them in small enough pieces, I think
10:13<Elukka>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulk_cargo
10:13<@Alberth>and 'fibres' sound very bendable, even without Bender :p
10:13<Qantourisc>a profit, nice to know
10:15<andythenorth>Elukka: in that list of bulk cargos do you see cotton, flax, hemp etc? :D
10:16<Elukka>what else would it be if not a bulk cargo?
10:16<Elukka>it's certainly not piece goods
10:16<andythenorth>why not?
10:16*andythenorth -> genuinely interested
10:16<Qantourisc>PS, some trains have travel time of a year :)
10:17<Qantourisc>and their profit is often negative
10:17<Qantourisc>any advise there ?
10:17<Qantourisc>Smaller maps ?
10:18<@peter1138>faster trains or less distance
10:18<andythenorth>Elukka: why aren't plant fibres piece goods?
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10:19<Elukka>i wouldn't think they're transported in boxes
10:19<andythenorth>he
10:20*andythenorth thinks elukka has the same problem as andythenorth
10:20<andythenorth>Elukka: according to the definition, everything that isn't bulk or liquid *must* be piece goods
10:20<andythenorth>ho
10:20<andythenorth>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-bulk_cargo
10:20<@peter1138>which definition?
10:20<andythenorth>"Types of neo-bulk cargo goods include heavy machinery, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumber, bundled http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel, scrap iron, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana, waste paper, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car.[1][4][3] The category has only become recognized as a distinct cargo category in its own right in recent decades"
10:21<Elukka>i'm not sure what the problem is?
10:21<@peter1138>neo-bulk?
10:21<andythenorth>peter1138: the definition proposed by planetmaker
10:21<+michi_cc>The NewGRF cargo class explicitly says "suitable for pouring", which fibers probably isn't.
10:21<andythenorth>andythenorth: are all cargos either bulk, unitised or liquid?
10:21<andythenorth>[13:42] planetmaker: what else could be there?
10:21<@peter1138>pouring as in tipping, i think that means
10:21<@peter1138>you could tip fibres
10:22<andythenorth>but you don't transport cotton bales in a hopper car
10:24<andythenorth>well you do in the game at the moment :)
10:27<andythenorth>what class is livestock?
10:27<andythenorth>piece
10:27<andythenorth>Elukka: do livestock travel in boxes?
10:27<andythenorth>he
10:27<andythenorth>chickens do
10:29<Elukka>well, i dunno
10:29<Elukka>if you want it to be cotton bales define it as piece goods
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10:30<andythenorth>I'm going to
10:30<andythenorth>:)
10:30<andythenorth>Elukka: thanks, you have helped me figure out some things
10:31<andythenorth>specifically, there is no point moaning about classes being broken when the 'problem' is simply caused by trying to keep compatibility with ECS
10:31<andythenorth>which gains nothing
10:39<Qantourisc>andythenorth: if they want to be compatible
10:39<Qantourisc>i recommend they share their classes code :)
10:40<andythenorth>there's no gain from the compatibility, except some possible cargo graphics support
10:41<Qantourisc>unless you want to run them at the same time ...
10:41<Qantourisc>sounds confusing :p
10:41<Sigvatr>i'm having a hard time figuring out how exactly signals and "blocks" work
10:41<Sigvatr>what defines a block?
10:41<andythenorth>you would have to rewrite ottd to run them at the same time ;)
10:42<andythenorth>FIRS uses all the available cargo slots
10:42<Qantourisc>s/int8/int16/g ?
10:43<Qantourisc>Sigvatr: a block is connected railtrack not blocked by a signal (note, some signals only count one way) (i hope i got that correct)
10:43<Qantourisc>Sigvatr: note: connected does not mean trains can go from A to B
10:43<Qantourisc>Sigvatr: but as soon as the rails connect, it's connected for the "block"
10:44<Qantourisc>Sigvatr: also note the 1 way signals, also important in some cases
10:45<+michi_cc>Qantourisc: Small correction, a signal block always ends at a signal, regardless of the signal type/direction.
10:45*andythenorth is now feeling chipper about cargo classes once more
10:45<Qantourisc>michi_cc: a ok, my bad :)
10:46<andythenorth>there is only one issue I can't figure out, and that's things like logs and sugarcane
10:46<andythenorth>which shouldn't travel by van
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10:49<andythenorth>but are not bulk
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10:50<andythenorth>and maybe they should just set 'oversized' or a similar new class
10:51<andythenorth>he
10:51<andythenorth>is sugar beet 'clean'? :D
10:53<Sigvatr>ok, so basically a block is the rail line between two signals?
10:53<+michi_cc>andythenorth: If I look out of the window at the heap there I'd definitely say not clean :) I don't want all that dirty in my food.
10:54*andythenorth figured the same
10:54<andythenorth>:)
10:54<andythenorth>does sugar beet travel in mining trucks?
10:54<andythenorth>:P
10:55<+michi_cc>It could, I just don't know any farmer who owns a mining truck :p
10:55<andythenorth>I have pictures of sugar *cane* travelling by mining truck in Hawaii
10:55<andythenorth>I think a mining truck would get stuck in a typical beet field]
10:56<andythenorth>an expensive muddy paperweight
10:56<andythenorth>michi_cc: this is what's needed for beets: http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/2011/11/dont-say-zetros-say-secutor-th.html
10:56<andythenorth>:)
10:56<andythenorth>and that is...possible for HEQS
10:58<Sigvatr>does the ttd music ever get boring?
10:59<+michi_cc>andythenorth: There are special harvesters for sugar beet here, but the beet is only dumped into a heap next to some farm track by them and later moved to processing by a truck.
11:00<andythenorth>so they run to the edge of the field + stockpile?
11:00<andythenorth>makes sense
11:01<+michi_cc>Yes, the sugar refineries can't take all the sugar beet thats ripe at the same time so it has to be stockpiled for later processing.
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11:02<andythenorth>unless there are rabid objections, I'm going to add a class for 'won't fit through small openings, e.g. large logs, bundles of sugarcane, etc, and also is likely to roll about so needs stakes or other restraining methods'
11:02<andythenorth>is there a snappy version of that?
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11:03<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> unless there are rabid objections <-- don't tell MB then :p
11:04<+michi_cc>Or really go for neo-bulk.
11:04<+michi_cc>That has at least some real economic background to point mb to.
11:05<andythenorth>I really don't care what MB thinks about it
11:07<supermop>any of you guys think the euro is about to fall significantly?
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>i don't quite remember my previous thougths on the matter...
11:07<andythenorth>I just chose not to get paid in € for my business
11:07*andythenorth is part of the problem :P
11:07<supermop>i want to buy a integrated amplifier from germany, but will wait if it might nose dive
11:08<supermop>probably won't fall in the next 3 hours: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Braun-Hi-Fi-Componenten-Atelier-Serie-/110765495096?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item19ca235338
11:08<Sigvatr>so are any new features planned for openttd, or is it just bug fixing?
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>Sigvatr: have you been sleeping the past few days?
11:09<Sigvatr>i have been playing openttd for less than 24 hours :|
11:09<Sigvatr>in fact i've never even played a tycoon game before
11:09<andythenorth>supermop: your currency is $? or yen?
11:09<supermop>ha i wish i had assets in yen right now
11:10<supermop>usd for me
11:11<supermop>i want to give up on my current set up, and go for integrated amplifier, and i love the rams pieces,
11:11<supermop>the ateier being the only marginally modern one made though
11:11<supermop>atelier
11:12<supermop>the atelier stuff also has the advantage of a glut of examples surviving in germany, so the prices are quite low
11:13<supermop>typically much cheaper than modern audiophile solid state gear
11:14<andythenorth>supermop: if the € collapses, it's likely that most currencies will follow
11:14<andythenorth>unless there's a flight to usd for stability
11:14<andythenorth>but currently the flight is to yen
11:15<supermop>bank of japan desperately wants yen to fall though to try to boost exporting (thus japanese heavy industry), but its not working so far
11:15<supermop>and euro collapsing will make that worse
11:16*andythenorth will bbl
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11:22<Sigvatr>towns accept any cargo, right?
11:23<@Alberth>no
11:23<@Alberth>open a station build window, and wave over a city to see what it accepts
11:23<@Alberth>alternatively, use the '?' button and click at houses :)
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: japanese economy has been on a standstill for decades now...
11:26<@Alberth>if you click at a station, the station window will also tell you what it accepts
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11:26<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: finally a sustainable economy :p
11:26<supermop>it has
11:27<supermop>but the yen is painfully strong
11:27<supermop>especially painfull for me - who wants to take another trip there to see a show on at the mori museum
11:27<Eddi|zuHause>because they totally lost the race of the USD and EUR which each keep trying to drop faster than the other
11:28<supermop>the first time i went there the yen was 120 to the dollar, now its 75
11:28<supermop>so i cant justify it
11:28<Eddi|zuHause>that's why they're milking this euro-crisis as much as they can
11:29<supermop>although if i can get there i can get informational interviews at a couple japanese architecture firm where i have connections....
11:29<Eddi|zuHause>if they solved it, the euro would skyrocket, and the export economy would suffer
11:29<supermop>wouldnt mind being paid in yen for a few years
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11:30<Eddi|zuHause>there's a village in switzerland that technically belongs to germany. they use swiss money, but pay german taxes.
11:30<Eddi|zuHause>then suddenly the swiss franc got incredibly strong... and their taxes grew equally, but their wages didn't
11:31<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23120 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (6 files): -Feature: [NoAI] Support for refit orders.
11:34<supermop>hmm playing music i like to sing along to in the shop was a bad idea
11:34<supermop>good thing there are no customers in here
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>if having no customers is a good thing, i understand why you have money problems :p
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11:43<supermop>actually we dont - the us business is carrying about half the company with only 10% of the employees
11:43<supermop>we are mostly web based, but we use our office as a show room
11:44<supermop>and new yorkers seem not to start early on saturdays, so the mornings are quiet
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11:58<supermop>i need a mac book air sleeve
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12:08<Eddi|zuHause>i have books, air, and sleeves... not sure about the mac part...
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12:25<supermop>work replaced my mac book pro with it
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12:33<andythenorth>hola
12:33<andythenorth>he
12:33<@Alberth>hi
12:33<andythenorth>"It is difficult to construct categories into which one can carefully classify all cargoes" :D
12:33<andythenorth>http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iUIe8LVs11sC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=neo+bulk+cargo&source=bl&ots=INw0FomBh-&sig=_nAaQWIUJRAWVi6zhI-bTJ2kXo4&hl=en&ei=U2S1TvfWAZSZ8gO6qaHIBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=neo%20bulk%20cargo&f=false
12:34<andythenorth>but I think I have solved all my gripes :)
12:36<supermop>cool
12:40<andythenorth>I don't know if it needs to be part of grf v8
12:42<+michi_cc>Adding cargo classes definitely not.
12:43<andythenorth>changing classes of Wood?
12:43<+michi_cc>Changing existing cargo classes of default cargoes is a basically a no-go, even with v8 as they are just used in too many places.
12:44<+michi_cc>The only thing that will probably work is *adding* a new cargo class to Wood.
12:47<andythenorth>that's my proposal :)
12:47<andythenorth>changing / adding /s
12:47<andythenorth>add neo-bulk
12:48<andythenorth>for authors who wish to make use of it
12:48<supermop>can i say haben gehast?
12:48<supermop>i forget how i write that
12:48<+michi_cc>so WOOD would be piece+neo bulk?
12:48<supermop>in 3rd person
12:48<+michi_cc>That change should be okay as no set would test for neo bulk yet.
12:48<supermop>for past tense of have
12:49<andythenorth>yes
12:49<andythenorth>I would start testing for them :)
12:49<andythenorth>and add them to FIRS Wood
12:50<+michi_cc>supermop: hassen or haben?
12:50<supermop>haben
12:50<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Propose that a the newgrf developer forum then, there's no need to couple that to grfv8 though.
12:51<andythenorth>I'm writing a post now :)
12:51<+michi_cc>er hat gehabt / sie haben gehabt depending if singular or plural
12:51<supermop>i want to say ich wunsche dass Sie eine gute Herbst gehabt?
12:52<+michi_cc>That sentence doesn't make sense.
12:52<supermop>writing to an older guy who certainly deserves Sie
12:52<supermop>'i hope you have had a good autumn"?
12:54<+michi_cc>"Ich hoffe, Sie hatten einen guten Herbst" for formal writing (Spoken also "Ich hoffe, Sie haben einen guten Herbst gehabt")
12:54<supermop>oh, thanks
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12:56<+michi_cc>present perfect as a tense form is mostly used colloquially/as spoken language, but the proper formal tense is preterit.
12:58*andythenorth thinks it finally made sense: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=53654&p=978777#p978777
13:02<+michi_cc>andythenorth: Reads sane
13:02<andythenorth>:)
13:03*andythenorth is now lost in a book about containers
13:03<andythenorth>basically anything that will go in a 20 foot box gets containerised
13:03<andythenorth>including bulk cargos
13:04<andythenorth>grain etc
13:05<+michi_cc>For bulk cargoes I guess weight is a problem, AFAIK the weight limit of containers isn't that high comparatively.
13:06<andythenorth>steel coils present a problem
13:06<andythenorth>I've seen pictures of them falling through the bottom
13:06<andythenorth>not good in an 8 high stack of boxes :)
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13:23<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: i wouldn't use "gehabt haben". sounds like you translated an english sentence 1:1...
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13:26<Eddi|zuHause>you could say "Ich wünsche, einen guten Herbst gehabt zu haben", but mostly with an ironic subtext :p
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13:54<andythenorth>he
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14:08<Sigvatr>how do i see chat history in multiplayer
14:08<Sigvatr>or make it permanently visible
14:09<supermop>google wants me to say "Zwischen den Regie und das Atelier Verstärker, tun, die Sie bevorzugen?"
14:14<@Alberth>Sigvatr: I think it is in the console
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14:15<@Alberth>http://wiki.openttd.org/Console <-- this console :)
14:17<Sigvatr>is it possible to dig tunnels underneath other people's railroads
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14:29<andythenorth>\o/
14:36<@Alberth>why not?
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14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: translators * r23121 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: italian - 18 changes by lorenzodv
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 90 changes by eloekset
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by eloekset
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: serbian - 17 changes by etran
14:45<CIA-6>OpenTTD: tamil - 15 changes by aswn
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15:17<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: are you thinking to refine 'oversized' *and* have 'neo-bulk'? Or just to refine 'oversized' ?
15:18<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not thinking anything, just showing options
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15:33*andythenorth contemplates whether to try and fix tram offsets, or redraw the tram tracks to be where the trams actually go :P
15:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: I understand your point about bit 10 class now
15:42<andythenorth>it's something I had been puzzling about
15:43<andythenorth>oversized and overweight are not the same thing
15:43<andythenorth>two different dimensions...
15:45<andythenorth>http://www.aslimasti.com/images/fun/it_happens/heavy_load_on_truck_cranes_sugarcane_india.jpg
15:46<@Alberth>lol!
15:47<@Alberth>you will get many glitches with such loads, I guess :(
15:50<andythenorth>:)
15:54<Qantourisc>hmmm stock disapears after a while
15:54<Qantourisc>that picture is old
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16:02<Qantourisc>I keep adding trains to my line :p
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16:23<Terkhen>hi
16:24<Qantourisc>Terkhen: hi
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16:42<Zuu>Qantourisc: Stock dissapearing, as with the truck above it falling off? :-p
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16:43<Qantourisc>:)
16:43<Qantourisc>no
16:44<Qantourisc>but no time now
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16:58<Sigvatr>man
16:58<Sigvatr>signals are fucking confusing
16:58<Sigvatr>how often does someone complain about that
16:59<Elukka>just use path signals everywhere
17:00<Qantourisc>Sigvatr: often, you'll get the hang of it :)
17:00<Elukka>there's niche cases where the rest are still useful but for now (and most times in the future too) you'll just want path signals
17:00<Elukka>i think path signals should get a prominent, bigger button than the rest and the tooltip should indicate that they're the best, basic type of signal
17:01<Sigvatr>basically i had one long rail line and wanted multiple trains to be able to use it in either direction, so i extended some parts to have a second line that entered and exited the main line and had enough room for a train to wait if it needed to
17:01<Sigvatr>i didn't know how to make the signals work so if two trains were approaching one another they would either turn around, or just hang
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17:05<andythenorth>oh dear
17:05*andythenorth smells a forum bunfight
17:07<Hyronymus>I smell learning to read clocks
17:08<andythenorth>for moi?
17:08<Terkhen>a fight about what?
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17:08<andythenorth>lighting :D
17:09<andythenorth>my favourite
17:10<Hyronymus>no, for purno, andythenorth
17:10<Terkhen>I foresee a lengthy discussion that achieves nothing, but not a fight
17:10<Hyronymus>typically a digital clock generation
17:10<Hyronymus>I foresee a verdict soon
17:10<Hyronymus>:P
17:11<Terkhen>for a given set, yes
17:11<Terkhen>but probably not for all sets :P
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17:11<Hyronymus>true
17:11<Hyronymus>and frankly I don't mind
17:12<Terkhen>:)
17:12*Terkhen is oblivious to small lighting issues anyways
17:14<Terkhen>good night
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18:28<Wolf01>'night
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18:41<CIA-6>OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23122 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: -Fix (23120): Silence GCC warning.
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18:47<Zuu>Thumbs up michi_cc for the NoAI support for your new and interesting feature.
18:47<+michi_cc>Zuu: It's not only for my feature. There was no support for refit orders at all.
18:48<Zuu>afaik NoAI also lacks support for timetables which would be interesting for data collection for trip times. But *someone* has to implement it first.
18:48<Zuu>:-)
18:50<+michi_cc>And half the order stuff might be broken anyway as it seems to not properly handle implicit orders, but that's something for somebody with more NoAI knowledge.
18:50<Zuu>Hmm, is there more problems with it not hiding away implicit orders than what was just fixed some days/weeks ago?
18:52<+michi_cc>At least AIOrder::ResolveOrderPosition is not always taking implicit orders into account, and most of the Set* functions don't even call that function at all.
18:53<Zuu>So using CURENT_ORDER is kind of broken. But not when using explicit order positions?
18:57<+michi_cc>The other way around, ResolveOrderPosition does complicated stuff for CURENT_ORDER and exactly nothing for explicit positions.
18:59<+michi_cc>And as far as I can see all Cmd* functions take the order offset including implicit orders.
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19:02<Zuu>From what I can see, the "complicated stuf" in ResolveOrderPosition will make it so that it return an order position that doesn't include implicit orders.
19:03<Zuu>But you are right that the order position returned by the Resolve function is sent just into DoCommand.
19:03<+michi_cc>That would mean it is doing exactly the opposite of what the Cmd*Order functions want, the offset into the Order* list in memory, which of course includes implicit orders.
19:04<Zuu>Indeed
19:12<Zuu>The bug can however not be in ResolveOrderPosition, as it is available to AIs through the API and should thus return indexes without implicit orders.
19:12<Zuu>I was wondering if the DoCommand thing in NoAI would do the conversion there, but I can't find any such thing.
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19:20<frosch123>Zuu: do you think any ai modifies exisiting orders of vehicles?
19:21<frosch123>or do they rather assign them only once after purchase?
19:23<Zuu>I don't even have this problem as I always use non-stop orders.
19:24<Zuu>If they use more than two stations in their order list they might insert or remove orders over time.
19:24<Zuu>PAXLink does this.
19:25<Zuu>I wrote a class which models a order list (with only a subset of all possible features) but with the posibility to Apply this model to a vehicle in a way that current order doesn't get changed unless that station has been removed.
19:26<Zuu>So yes, some AIs does that.
19:26<Zuu>But I would guess that AIs written by experienced (O)TTD players use non-stop orders.
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19:54<frosch123>night
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 06 00:00:55 2011