| --- | Log | opened Thu Nov 10 00:00:09 2011 |
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| 01:03 | <Rubidium> | ctibor: because good service only increases the chance the production will increase, which means it may very well not increase or even decrease |
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| 01:15 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r23178 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Feature [FS#4780]: in-game readme.txt readmer (LordAro) |
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| 01:44 | <@planetmaker> | moin Rubidium :-) |
| 01:44 | <@planetmaker> | and also all others |
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| 02:24 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause2: in the 'large' set scheme - containers? |
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| 02:25 | <andythenorth> | containers are interesting case - IRL they carry near everything, including bulk. In most sets they are piece / express |
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| 02:35 | * | planetmaker has found another interesting thing and points at trunk head. HEQS is lacking there ;-) As is FISH and FIRS and ... every NeWGRF ;-) |
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| 02:40 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: all I get is 504 :P |
| 02:41 | <andythenorth> | we've chosen to delete the repo and end the project? :o |
| 02:41 | <andythenorth> | it's 'done' |
| 02:41 | <andythenorth> | ? |
| 02:41 | <andythenorth> | http://vcs.openttd.org/ |
| 02:42 | <andythenorth> | but yes, hg shows me tip, now I have to write text files :D |
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| 02:54 | <@planetmaker> | yes, we've got to write readme files now in a ledgible format |
| 02:54 | <@planetmaker> | Though, andythenorth, you're doing better than Pikka ;-) |
| 02:54 | <@planetmaker> | He supplies no readme whatsoever :-P |
| 02:54 | <andythenorth> | is the new feature announced in forums? |
| 02:54 | <@planetmaker> | nor do Georges' newgrfs supply readmes |
| 02:54 | <@planetmaker> | no(t yet) |
| 02:54 | <andythenorth> | I think I asked for it in my ponies thread |
| 02:55 | <@planetmaker> | I thought of making a short announcement |
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| 02:56 | <@planetmaker> | TrueBrain, 504 on vcs.openttd.org |
| 02:56 | <andythenorth> | I had 'bananas changelog field' as a pony |
| 02:56 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 02:57 | <andythenorth> | frosch got ahead of my idea about mapping equivalent cargo labels :( |
| 02:57 | <andythenorth> | and it's likely that his is a good idea and mine was silly :P |
| 03:00 | <@planetmaker> | I haven't yet quite understood what he wrote. My tea water is just boiling... |
| 03:06 | <andythenorth> | I haven't understood all of it either |
| 03:06 | <andythenorth> | my idea was that cargos could map equivalence |
| 03:07 | <@planetmaker> | equivalent cargos sounds like identical cargos which should have the same label ;-) |
| 03:07 | <andythenorth> | so if your cargo set introduces bauxite, you could say "copper ore is a known cargo, bauxite should be treated 1:1 like copper ore" |
| 03:08 | <andythenorth> | I think frosch is doing something slightly different |
| 03:08 | <@planetmaker> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=57337 <- readme announcement |
| 03:10 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: so some of my grfs already have readme.txt.... |
| 03:10 | * | andythenorth tests |
| 03:10 | <@Terkhen> | good morning |
| 03:10 | <andythenorth> | hola |
| 03:10 | <@Terkhen> | nice, readmes can be read :) |
| 03:12 | <andythenorth> | I think I understand frosch's proposal |
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| 03:12 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 03:12 | <andythenorth> | HEQS readme isn't seen :P |
| 03:13 | <andythenorth> | nor FISH |
| 03:13 | <andythenorth> | nvm |
| 03:13 | <andythenorth> | they're not from bananas |
| 03:14 | <andythenorth> | \o/ |
| 03:14 | <andythenorth> | now to make them readable *before* you download :) |
| 03:14 | <@planetmaker> | andythenorth, all of your NewGRF have one |
| 03:14 | <andythenorth> | maybe read-before-download is not needed |
| 03:14 | <@planetmaker> | but not all are very informative ;-) |
| 03:15 | <andythenorth> | no |
| 03:15 | <@planetmaker> | And good point. I have to adjust the 'make install' so that it tars the stuff |
| 03:15 | <@planetmaker> | such that the readme viewer works without hassle |
| 03:15 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
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| 03:15 | <andythenorth> | should I stop maintaining separate changelog? I would like the change information in the readme |
| 03:15 | <andythenorth> | personally |
| 03:16 | <@planetmaker> | Yes, I thought about that, too. Especially with the ingame readme viewer |
| 03:17 | <@planetmaker> | except if we add a changelog viewer :-P |
| 03:17 | <@planetmaker> | which now would be very simple to add |
| 03:17 | <@planetmaker> | good idea? bad idea? |
| 03:17 | <@Terkhen> | IMO displaying a single file is enough |
| 03:18 | <@planetmaker> | then I have to merge all changelog.txt into the readme :-P |
| 03:18 | <andythenorth> | planetmaker: indifferent idea :) |
| 03:18 | <andythenorth> | changelog should show up before downloading - on a button called "what's new" :P |
| 03:18 | <@planetmaker> | would be just another button... |
| 03:19 | <@Terkhen> | that's my main problem with showing different text files: it needs buttons :) |
| 03:19 | <@Terkhen> | besides that I don't care |
| 03:19 | <andythenorth> | when you know the set, the stuff you want most is "what new stuff do I get?" |
| 03:19 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 03:19 | <@planetmaker> | and the other way around |
| 03:19 | <andythenorth> | but if it's new you want "what does it do" |
| 03:19 | <@planetmaker> | if you don't know it, the "what's new" doesn't give a picture |
| 03:20 | <andythenorth> | *short* changelog copied in - latest features / fixes only? |
| 03:20 | <@planetmaker> | possibly. for now |
| 03:20 | <@planetmaker> | That's probably what I'll employ. The last or last two changelogs |
| 03:21 | <andythenorth> | he |
| 03:21 | <andythenorth> | I now have an insane amount of newgrf work to do :) |
| 03:22 | <appe> | morning. |
| 03:22 | <@Terkhen> | hi appe |
| 03:22 | <appe> | whats up? |
| 03:22 | <@Terkhen> | 1) Short description of the newgrf |
| 03:22 | <@Terkhen> | 2) Short changelog |
| 03:22 | <@Terkhen> | 3) Rest of the stuff |
| 03:22 | <@Terkhen> | 4) Full changelog |
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| 03:26 | <@planetmaker> | sounds complicated, Terkhen |
| 03:26 | <@planetmaker> | especially as bananas supports a changelog.txt |
| 03:26 | <@Terkhen> | it works on the principle of tl;dr :P |
| 03:27 | <@planetmaker> | of what? |
| 03:27 | <@Terkhen> | too long; didn't read |
| 03:27 | <@planetmaker> | ah :-P |
| 03:28 | <@planetmaker> | I mean... OpenGFX' changelog has 458 lines at the moment |
| 03:28 | <@planetmaker> | which is too long to read :-P |
| 03:28 | <@planetmaker> | (attention span of 20 lines or so :-P ) |
| 03:28 | <andythenorth> | tl;dr is pretty good |
| 03:28 | <@Terkhen> | 4) should go in a different file then |
| 03:29 | <@planetmaker> | yes, that's all I wanted to say: keep 4) in the file as now. But make sure 2) is there |
| 03:29 | <andythenorth> | works for me |
| 03:29 | <@planetmaker> | I guess we all agree but didn't notice :-P |
| 03:29 | <andythenorth> | one more c+p before release :P |
| 03:30 | <@planetmaker> | shall I script that, andythenorth ? ;-) |
| 03:30 | <@planetmaker> | like {{new_changelog}} |
| 03:30 | <andythenorth> | you might go mad on edge cases |
| 03:30 | <andythenorth> | unless we fragment the changelog |
| 03:30 | <@planetmaker> | of course. I'll require a certain changelog format then. In the way I use it all the time ;-) |
| 03:31 | <@planetmaker> | Version 0.2.1 |
| 03:31 | <@planetmaker> | ============= |
| 03:31 | <andythenorth> | if you do it I'll try it |
| 03:31 | <@planetmaker> | ^^ pretty unique and identifiable |
| 03:31 | <andythenorth> | if I break it, I won't ask for support :P |
| 03:31 | <andythenorth> | c+p is not too painful, releases are not frequent |
| 03:31 | <@planetmaker> | but it's not too high on my agenda right now, tbh. But I'll make a note |
| 03:32 | <andythenorth> | so much to do :o |
| 03:32 | <andythenorth> | if someone fixed newgrf vehicle smoke, I think my head might actually explode |
| 03:34 | <@planetmaker> | I'm afraid we can't allow that, andythenorth. |
| 03:34 | <@planetmaker> | a) who'll clean up all the debris? |
| 03:34 | <@planetmaker> | b) your head is better used where it is now |
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| 03:34 | <@planetmaker> | --> no new smoke now :-P |
| 03:34 | <andythenorth> | meh |
| 03:34 | <andythenorth> | it's such a dumb situation, the patch was added, but is not usable for ships :) |
| 03:35 | <andythenorth> | it's extra painful to see that it's in the spec now :P |
| 03:36 | <andythenorth> | also....I'm thinking that Eddi|zuHause2 might have an unarguable point about two props for refittable labels |
| 03:36 | <andythenorth> | I think an exclude prop is wrong, but maybe the way it has to be done |
| 03:40 | <andythenorth> | lacks elegance :( |
| 03:40 | <dihedral> | greetings y'all |
| 03:41 | <@Terkhen> | hi dihedral |
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| 03:41 | <dihedral> | vcs.openttd.org seems to be down <- TrueBrain, Rubidium ;-) |
| 03:41 | <dihedral> | or whoever takes care |
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| 03:42 | <dihedral> | good morning Terkhen |
| 03:42 | <dihedral> | :-) |
| 03:42 | <@planetmaker> | helo dihedral |
| 03:42 | <dihedral> | and you too :-) |
| 03:42 | <@planetmaker> | use hg.openttd.org |
| 03:43 | <dihedral> | interesting :-) |
| 03:43 | <dihedral> | thank you |
| 03:44 | <dihedral> | was interested in looking at the ingame readme viewer :-) |
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| 03:44 | <Celestar> | morning :D |
| 03:45 | <appe> | whats vcs and hg? |
| 03:46 | <Celestar> | how the hell do I git add all the changed files without using some damn awk magic? |
| 03:47 | <dihedral> | does it now work on a folder? |
| 03:47 | <dihedral> | or recursively |
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| 03:49 | <Celestar> | git add -u seems to do the trick |
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| 03:51 | <andythenorth> | bbl |
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| 03:54 | <Celestar> | I'm still amazed how fast the goddamn code is. |
| 03:56 | <Celestar> | on my comp, the tile loop takes 87 nanoseconds per tile. |
| 04:00 | <Celestar> | hmmmmm. |
| 04:00 | <Celestar> | michi_cc: if the "tile stack" at one place has independent tile loop procs, couldn't we put them into seperate threads? |
| 04:01 | <@planetmaker> | would it remain deterministically? |
| 04:02 | <Celestar> | that's what I'm wondering. |
| 04:02 | <@planetmaker> | Think of industry, airport, object or house tiles querying the adjacent tiles |
| 04:02 | <Celestar> | planetmaker: yeah, adjacent. |
| 04:02 | <@planetmaker> | +- 0x0F |
| 04:02 | <Celestar> | planetmaker: I'm think of threading it purely in the "Z" direction |
| 04:04 | -!- | Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause |
| 04:04 | * | dihedral is wondering if the readme viewer could be used to display a 'rules' text from a server one would like to join :-P |
| 04:05 | <dihedral> | or if that would not be total overkill |
| 04:05 | <@planetmaker> | that's not a readme viewer :-P |
| 04:05 | <@planetmaker> | Do you agree to the TOS [ ] yes [ ] no |
| 04:06 | <@planetmaker> | *<font size = 3>You agree to pay a fine of 50€ for the first kick and a administration fee of 500€ should you violate the rules and this violation result in a ban.</font>Please fill in credit card details here: .... |
| 04:08 | <@Terkhen> | :D |
| 04:14 | <Celestar> | planetmaker: the main question is, what happens if a tile is deleted during the Loop processing? |
| 04:17 | <@planetmaker> | I'm not entirely familiar with the involved loops: The tile loop only visits certain tiles per tick, right, like every 1/256 tiles? |
| 04:17 | <@planetmaker> | i.e. every tick some tiles? |
| 04:18 | <Celestar> | planetmaker: every tick 1/256th of the map. |
| 04:18 | <Celestar> | hm. |
| 04:18 | <@planetmaker> | Then we have to make sure that those tiles cannot access eachother |
| 04:18 | <@planetmaker> | which is... difficult |
| 04:18 | <Celestar> | I still can't follow :P |
| 04:18 | <@planetmaker> | as e.g. deleting a house can change population of a town which again can be read by tiles MUCH more distant |
| 04:19 | <Celestar> | planetmaker: with newmap, there are multiple tiles at a single location. |
| 04:19 | <@planetmaker> | yes. |
| 04:19 | <Celestar> | planetmaker: if this location is visited during the tile loop, each of the "subtiles" has its tile loop run. |
| 04:19 | <@planetmaker> | got me confused :-) |
| 04:19 | <@planetmaker> | not x/y processing parallel. only z |
| 04:20 | <Celestar> | planetmaker: those tile loops are (possibly) independent from one another. |
| 04:20 | <Celestar> | planetmaker: yes :D |
| 04:20 | <@planetmaker> | depends on whether they can access the previous state or not |
| 04:20 | <@planetmaker> | if they can: difficult |
| 04:20 | <@planetmaker> | or rather: the killer |
| 04:20 | <Celestar> | the previous state? you mean the state of the "lower/upper" tiles? |
| 04:20 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 04:20 | <Celestar> | from all I have seen: no. |
| 04:21 | <@planetmaker> | it could be threaded then, possibly, if the answer is "no and never will" ;-) |
| 04:21 | <Celestar> | the main concern I have is what happens if the tile loop removes a tile from the stack. |
| 04:21 | <Celestar> | is the vector we store the stuff in thread-safe? :P |
| 04:22 | <dihedral> | why would the tile loop remove a tile?? |
| 04:22 | <@planetmaker> | dihedral, removing the subway |
| 04:22 | <Celestar> | dihedral: removal of the last tree on a tile. |
| 04:22 | <Celestar> | dihedral: then MP_CLEAR + MP_TREE would become MP_CLEAR |
| 04:22 | <@planetmaker> | how would that remove the tile, Celestar ? |
| 04:23 | <Celestar> | planetmaker: it would remove the "tree" part. |
| 04:23 | <@planetmaker> | hm, I see. I wasn't aware of that kind of "level" |
| 04:23 | <dihedral> | heh |
| 04:24 | <Celestar> | planetmaker: well according to michi_cc, it's experimental anyway. |
| 04:24 | <dihedral> | lets have it committed to trunk then :-P |
| 04:24 | <@planetmaker> | and call it openttdpatch |
| 04:24 | <dihedral> | :-D |
| 04:25 | <Celestar> | rofl |
| 04:25 | <Celestar> | anyway. The removal of the last tree is the only thing that can remove a tile during the tile loop. |
| 04:26 | <dihedral> | how come? |
| 04:26 | <dihedral> | what if the tile only contains a building? |
| 04:26 | <Celestar> | hm. |
| 04:27 | <Celestar> | the removal would need to be thread safe. and I'm not sure it can be. |
| 04:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | how about: memcopy the entire map at start of tile loop, lock that copy and use it for all further read accesses. fire up the whole tileloop as one thread per tile, and write changes to the original map. after joining all threads, remove the copy, and redirect read access back to the original map |
| 04:27 | <Celestar> | Eddi|zuHause: the read access isn't the problem. |
| 04:28 | <Celestar> | this is: |
| 04:28 | <Celestar> | you have, at one place, a MP_CLEAR and an MP_TREE. |
| 04:28 | <Celestar> | MP_CLEAR has a .. bit that sais that another tile follows. |
| 04:28 | <TrueBrain> | planetmaker: fixed; tracd decided to segfault over and over and over and over again :) He likes segfaulting :) |
| 04:28 | <Celestar> | if MP_TREE is removed, MP_CLEAR needs to be changed. |
| 04:29 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Celestar: yes, but if you have a locked copy of the original map, every other tile doesn't care if these two tiles change. |
| 04:29 | <Celestar> | Eddi|zuHause: the question is: how long does a memcpy of the entire map take? |
| 04:30 | <Celestar> | if this is more than a maybe two-digit figure of microseconds, it will not help. |
| 04:30 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Celestar: all tiles other than the one processed currently have the state from _before_ the tile loop was run |
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| 04:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i have no clue about nanoseconds |
| 04:31 | <Celestar> | <Sheldon>a nanosecond is 1e-9 of a second </Sheldon> |
| 04:32 | <@planetmaker> | Celestar, call it MP_VOID then |
| 04:32 | <@planetmaker> | and leave it in place |
| 04:32 | <Celestar> | hm... |
| 04:33 | <Celestar> | and then have a cleanup loop run less often that does GC? |
| 04:34 | <@planetmaker> | kinda |
| 04:34 | <@planetmaker> | it might also just be re-populated |
| 04:34 | <@planetmaker> | so the "surface" layer might not need deletion at all |
| 04:34 | <@planetmaker> | it's not like we are short on memory really |
| 04:38 | <Celestar> | first question is ... how much does it gain :P |
| 04:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's something that cannot possibly be answered from an abstract point of view :p |
| 04:39 | <Celestar> | hence I'm coding it :P |
| 04:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the same approach might be taken by pathfinding, but i think that needs some further refactoring first |
| 04:40 | <@planetmaker> | the copying the whole map is expensive. |
| 04:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but you can't copy only parts of the map, because the tile loop really touches all of the map at once |
| 04:46 | <@planetmaker> | well 1/256 at once |
| 04:47 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes. spread like cancer throughout the whole map |
| 04:47 | <@planetmaker> | yes. Actually there was recently a patch which made that a) random and b) faster |
| 04:47 | <@planetmaker> | random as in not regular |
| 04:47 | <@planetmaker> | not really random |
| 04:49 | <@peter1138> | morning again |
| 04:49 | <@Terkhen> | hi peter1138 |
| 04:56 | <@planetmaker> | salut peter1138 |
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| 05:16 | <Celestar> | hacking threads into this is ... hacky :P |
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| 05:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which is why nobody has done it yet :p |
| 05:21 | <Celestar> | rofl |
| 05:22 | * | Celestar starts over :P |
| 05:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "Equivalent cargo labels" <-- now where do i remember that from? :p |
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| 05:52 | <@peter1138> | i'm so hacky, hacky hacky hacky... |
| 05:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you are so old, old old old... |
| 05:56 | <MNIM> | hacky wacky jacky! |
| 05:59 | * | andythenorth seems to have high boredom threshold :P |
| 06:03 | <andythenorth> | gah |
| 06:03 | <andythenorth> | I find myself agreeing almost 100% with MB |
| 06:04 | <@Terkhen> | so... this week long discussion is nearing a conclusion? :P |
| 06:04 | <andythenorth> | it needs at least one decision to be made |
| 06:04 | <andythenorth> | wrt explicit exclusion prop for labels |
| 06:04 | <andythenorth> | I don't want it |
| 06:05 | <andythenorth> | but if we only did what I want, it would be a poor world :P |
| 06:05 | <andythenorth> | my opinion on that prop has developed as far as 'meh' and 'shrug' |
| 06:05 | <andythenorth> | as long as the XOR goes away and we get a list of included props as indices to CTT, I'm ecstatic |
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| 06:11 | <@peter1138> | i still don't get Eddi|zuHause's objects |
| 06:12 | <@Yexo> | wasn't it just about the amount of work? |
| 06:12 | <@peter1138> | +why |
| 06:13 | <@peter1138> | hmm |
| 06:13 | <@peter1138> | no |
| 06:13 | <@peter1138> | i still don't get Eddi|zuHause's objection |
| 06:13 | <@peter1138> | yes :) |
| 06:13 | <andythenorth> | he wants to be able to use classes |
| 06:13 | <@Yexo> | your set contains 300 engines. You learn of a new cargo type ABCD and want to add graphics support for that in one wagon. |
| 06:13 | <andythenorth> | explicitly excluding things in the CTT makes work |
| 06:13 | <andythenorth> | he might be right |
| 06:13 | <andythenorth> | it's not elegant though :P |
| 06:13 | <@Yexo> | Now you have to add it to the CTT, which in turns means that for every wagon you either add it explicitely to the "include list" or don't include it |
| 06:14 | <andythenorth> | he should create an internal define in his set, which composes a set of n labels |
| 06:14 | <andythenorth> | 'groups' which are private to his set |
| 06:14 | <andythenorth> | does the world end if the same index appears twice in the list for hte refit prop |
| 06:14 | <andythenorth> | ? |
| 06:14 | <@peter1138> | yes |
| 06:15 | <@peter1138> | you'll need computers able to store 2 in a single bit ;) |
| 06:15 | * | andythenorth doesn't want ottd to cause end of world |
| 06:15 | <jonty-comp> | quantum openttd! |
| 06:16 | <TrueBrain> | 2012 takes care of that, no worries |
| 06:16 | <@peter1138> | conty-jomp! |
| 06:16 | <andythenorth> | I hate the exclude property, but if it gets this issue moved to a conclusion, there would be happy people |
| 06:16 | <jonty-comp> | professor bigglesworth! |
| 06:16 | <@peter1138> | doing the exclude property is actually a bit easier to cod e;) |
| 06:17 | <andythenorth> | do that then :P |
| 06:17 | <@peter1138> | does Eddi|zuHause use raw nfo, preprocesser nfo, or nml? |
| 06:17 | <@peter1138> | andythenorth, i don't want it though ;p |
| 06:17 | <andythenorth> | I'll define private groups in my sets for excludes :P |
| 06:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | worse. a google spreadsheet |
| 06:17 | <andythenorth> | find a way to make it optional |
| 06:17 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and a python script |
| 06:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that is then generating preprocessed nml |
| 06:18 | <@peter1138> | shouldn't be much hassle then :p |
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| 06:35 | <Celestar> | bah :P |
| 06:36 | <Celestar> | stupid friggen threading :P |
| 06:38 | <@peter1138> | :) |
| 06:38 | <Celestar> | wtb [new brain |
| 06:38 | <Celestar> | ] |
| 06:39 | <Celestar> | maybe I should first not use our implementation |
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| 06:39 | <Celestar> | but try it with pthread directly |
| 06:45 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: the point is that adding graphics to one wagon needs changes in totally unrelated places |
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| 06:49 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: but you've changed the context of your set |
| 06:49 | <andythenorth> | your set has known and unknown cargos, and by adding one, you change that |
| 06:50 | <andythenorth> | so now you need to tell your set what to do with that |
| 06:50 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: it's still bad from a coding point of view |
| 06:50 | <andythenorth> | writing code isn't bad |
| 06:50 | <andythenorth> | letting possible errors pass silently is bad |
| 06:51 | <andythenorth> | it's bad that when you add a parameter to a function, you might have to update every single place that's called |
| 06:51 | <andythenorth> | why not just auto-magic that? |
| 06:51 | <andythenorth> | but it's not how it's done |
| 06:51 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i can add optional parameters to a function, and only use it in places that actually need it |
| 06:52 | <andythenorth> | I tried to figure out a way to make this optional |
| 06:52 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: making it optional is easy. Just go back to the two properties, one include list and one exclude list |
| 06:52 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 06:52 | <Eddi|zuHause> | that's exactly what i said |
| 06:53 | <andythenorth> | which is why I think Eddi|zuHause might be right |
| 06:53 | <andythenorth> | see above somewhere ;) |
| 06:53 | <@Yexo> | one advantage of the single property is that as soon as everybody starts using it changing cargoclasses for known cargoes doesn't break those vehicle sets |
| 06:54 | <andythenorth> | Yexo: it doesn't 'break' them in either case |
| 06:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | which we can't do anyway, because of backwards compatibility |
| 06:54 | <andythenorth> | but in one case the spec is a huge mess |
| 06:54 | <andythenorth> | and in the other it's explicit |
| 06:54 | <@Yexo> | Eddi|zuHause: that's theory, you can't influence everyone not to do it |
| 06:54 | <@Yexo> | ie even george changed cargoclasses of some cargos in ECS not too long ago |
| 06:54 | <andythenorth> | MB made class change requests |
| 06:54 | <andythenorth> | no-one is immune |
| 06:54 | <Eddi|zuHause> | "Dec 31, 2010" |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | with the exclusion property, here is my problem |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | I have cargo 'foo' |
| 06:55 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but changing newgrf cargos is less problematic than changing original cargos |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | it's not in my include or exclude list. Does my vehicle carry 'foo' ? |
| 06:55 | * | Celestar is attempting to understand Foundations :P |
| 06:55 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: depends on cargoclasses |
| 06:55 | <andythenorth> | I have no fricking idea if my vehicle carries 'foo', but it's in my CTT |
| 06:56 | <@Yexo> | you can't plan for that, since you didn't know about foo when you created your set |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | but it's in my CTT - so I know about it |
| 06:56 | <Elukka> | http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/5/6/0/2560.1269886484.jpg |
| 06:56 | <@Yexo> | than you should hav added it to either the include or exlucde list if you wanted to be sure |
| 06:56 | <Elukka> | that is a pretty amazing station |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | but that's not what Eddi|zuHause wants to do |
| 06:56 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: imagine a container wagon. why should it know whether it carries "foo", when the open wagon displays special graphics for "foo"? |
| 06:56 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause wants to be sure on the basis of classes - unless I misrepresent him |
| 06:56 | <@Yexo> | it all boils down to: will cargoclasses get changed again, and do we care if that means some vehicles temporary transport some "wrong" cargoes |
| 06:57 | <Eddi|zuHause> | anyway, gtg |
| 06:57 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: it shouldn't know. But vehicle set authors think it should :P |
| 06:58 | <@Yexo> | andythenorth: that was not the point. If you want to make sure whether your vehicle can refit foo you can do that either way (just include list or both include and exclude list). With just an include list you're forced to let the vehicle know whether it can refit foo |
| 06:58 | <andythenorth> | yes |
| 06:58 | <Celestar> | do we have some link to decoded foundation sprites? |
| 06:58 | <andythenorth> | the single prop is the 'correct' route imho |
| 06:58 | <andythenorth> | but it doesn't meet the needs of vehicle set authors who want to avoid writing code |
| 06:59 | <@Yexo> | <Elukka> that is a pretty amazing station <- Celestar somewhere in that repo :p |
| 06:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Celestar: in the opengfx repo? |
| 06:59 | <@Yexo> | http://hg.openttdcoop.org/opengfx <- ehm, there |
| 06:59 | <Celestar> | Yexo: rofl :P |
| 06:59 | <Celestar> | thanks |
| 06:59 | <Elukka> | whut |
| 07:00 | <Celestar> | hm. |
| 07:00 | <andythenorth> | Yexo: exclude property: +1 or -1 ? |
| 07:00 | <@planetmaker> | Celestar, OpenGFX has them decoded |
| 07:00 | <Celestar> | that's a shitload of parameters you need to store the (slope+foundation) in a tile. |
| 07:00 | <@Yexo> | no big opinion either way |
| 07:00 | <andythenorth> | me neither |
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| 07:02 | <andythenorth> | I guess it gets decided by whoever turns up with working code |
| 07:02 | <Elukka> | http://www.marklin.com/tech/images/layouts/ho-era5.jpg |
| 07:02 | <Elukka> | are those passenger coaches refit for cargo in the upper left O_o |
| 07:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | never seen those before |
| 07:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but could be repainted old mail/baggage cars |
| 07:09 | <Elukka> | something like that probably |
| 07:10 | <Elukka> | i've never even seen the models before |
| 07:10 | <Elukka> | and that talgo trainset there is weird as hell, but that's talgo for you |
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| 07:36 | <Celestar> | aren't those ICE cars a short? |
| 07:36 | <Celestar> | they don't look like 25m to me |
| 07:37 | <@planetmaker> | indeed, they look short compared to the heads |
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| 07:46 | <arie-> | I've got a possible bug, but if I remember correctly this one has been mentioned before: |
| 07:47 | <arie-> | strange track reservations: there's a possible path for a train but it just won't take it |
| 07:47 | <arie-> | possibly happened during track reconstructions |
| 07:47 | <arie-> | I think I've seen the issue before on the forums but cannot find it |
| 07:48 | <arie-> | http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=54399&hilit=track+reservation this one maybe |
| 07:48 | <arie-> | I'll add a post to that one with a save game |
| 07:50 | <Celestar> | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/4017_Backhead_20040426.jpg |
| 07:50 | <Celestar> | now this is a "user interface" |
| 07:50 | <@peter1138> | heh |
| 07:50 | <@peter1138> | needs tooltips |
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| 07:51 | <Celestar> | yep |
| 07:51 | <Celestar> | hm. |
| 07:52 | <andythenorth> | needs a bigger GUI :P |
| 07:52 | <Celestar> | lol yeah |
| 07:52 | <Celestar> | storing all 4 corners of a tile is not sufficient to define the configuration of the tile. |
| 07:52 | <andythenorth> | it should be made in squirrel so anyone can remake it as they see fit |
| 07:52 | <@peter1138> | oh? |
| 07:53 | <Celestar> | peter1138: for example, half-tile-slopes. |
| 07:53 | <arie-> | Ok, got two autosaves, two minutes apart. |
| 07:53 | <@peter1138> | oh |
| 07:53 | <Celestar> | peter1138: those even give a headache what to store in two of the corners. |
| 07:53 | <@peter1138> | magic voodoo |
| 07:53 | <Celestar> | because it's undefined. |
| 07:53 | <@peter1138> | slope with rail on top :S |
| 07:54 | <Celestar> | yeah |
| 07:54 | <@peter1138> | are you storing it as a slope value, i.e. in 5 bits? |
| 07:54 | <Celestar> | or just store the north corner and define the "half tile slope" as separate Slope value |
| 07:54 | <Celestar> | peter1138: yeah, but currently I'm using 8 bits for simplicity. |
| 07:55 | <@peter1138> | that's where i'm going |
| 07:55 | <Celestar> | "great minds think alike" ? :P |
| 07:55 | <@peter1138> | can you have half-tile stuff on steep slopes though? |
| 07:55 | <Celestar> | yes. |
| 07:55 | <Celestar> | even two half-tiles :P |
| 07:55 | <Celestar> | but theoretically, with cliffs .... |
| 07:56 | <Celestar> | there is no clear definition how many levels those two half-tiles are apart, is there? |
| 07:56 | <@peter1138> | ooh, a graphical bug :D |
| 07:56 | <Celestar> | I'm not sure it's only graphical tbh :P |
| 07:57 | <@peter1138> | no, i mean in trunk :) |
| 07:57 | <Celestar> | oh :d |
| 07:57 | <Celestar> | where |
| 07:58 | <@peter1138> | http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/halftile.png |
| 07:59 | <@peter1138> | i suspect it doesn't matter though ;) |
| 08:00 | <Celestar> | wtf is that from |
| 08:01 | <Celestar> | well anyway. |
| 08:01 | <@peter1138> | hmm? |
| 08:01 | <Celestar> | that line. |
| 08:01 | <@peter1138> | it's the lower foundation creeping through |
| 08:01 | <Celestar> | oh right :D |
| 08:01 | <Celestar> | ol |
| 08:01 | <Celestar> | lol |
| 08:02 | <@peter1138> | possibly the wrong sprite selected :) |
| 08:02 | <@peter1138> | i don't remember everything about all the foundation sprites though :) |
| 08:02 | <Celestar> | neither do I |
| 08:02 | <Celestar> | anyway. |
| 08:03 | <Celestar> | logically, the tile consists of 4 parts. |
| 08:03 | <Celestar> | 4 triangles, with two corners in adjacent corners of the tile, and the third corner in the centre of the tile |
| 08:08 | <Celestar> | with those 4, it would be easy. |
| 08:08 | <Celestar> | ... theoretically :P |
| 08:12 | <Celestar> | halftiles are a pita |
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| 08:34 | <Celestar> | bah dis sucks. |
| 08:34 | * | Celestar has to rethink terraforming completely |
| 08:37 | <Noldo> | howcome? |
| 08:42 | <Celestar> | if you wanna be able to terraform cliffs/foundations, the GUI needs some changing :P |
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| 08:44 | <z-MaTRiX> | hi |
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| 08:55 | <Celestar> | $ ls -alh bin/openttd |
| 08:55 | <Celestar> | -rwxrwxr-x 1 vici vici 65M 2011-11-10 14:55 bin/openttd |
| 08:55 | <Celestar> | lol |
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| 09:01 | <@peter1138> | -rwxr-xr-x 1 petern petern 41M Nov 10 11:48 bin/openttd |
| 09:01 | <@peter1138> | big but not that big |
| 09:01 | <SpComb> | debugs? |
| 09:01 | <@peter1138> | yeah |
| 09:01 | <@peter1138> | debug & profiling |
| 09:02 | <SpComb> | lzma loader :) |
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| 09:11 | <Celestar> | http://www.dropmocks.com/mhzm- |
| 09:11 | <Tintinfan> | hello |
| 09:12 | <Celestar> | cliffs are hell. |
| 09:12 | <Tintinfan> | ? |
| 09:13 | <Noldo> | you are not going to like where that leads |
| 09:14 | <@peter1138> | heh |
| 09:14 | <@peter1138> | looks cool ;) |
| 09:15 | <Celestar> | yeah. |
| 09:15 | <Celestar> | peter1138: but the Z drawing order is fucked. |
| 09:16 | <Celestar> | plus the engines can jump over cliffs :D |
| 09:16 | <Noldo> | well naturally |
| 09:16 | <@Belugas> | hello |
| 09:17 | <Celestar> | reload the link |
| 09:17 | <Celestar> | and open cliff2 :) |
| 09:19 | <Celestar> | plus .. er I lack a user interface :P I just manually modded the map array :D |
| 09:19 | <@peter1138> | is it? |
| 09:19 | <@peter1138> | yj |
| 09:19 | <@peter1138> | hmm |
| 09:19 | <Celestar> | peter1138: ? |
| 09:19 | <@peter1138> | z order fucked? |
| 09:19 | <@peter1138> | oh |
| 09:19 | <Celestar> | peter1138: the wagons should be partially hidden |
| 09:19 | <@peter1138> | yes |
| 09:20 | <@peter1138> | that was never a problem :) |
| 09:20 | <Celestar> | no it wasn't :D |
| 09:20 | <@peter1138> | yeah, vehicles are always drawn after the landscape. hmm. |
| 09:20 | <@peter1138> | at least, i think |
| 09:20 | <Celestar> | how is it done with trees? |
| 09:21 | <Celestar> | because trees can hide vehicles |
| 09:21 | <@peter1138> | landscape then all objects |
| 09:21 | <Celestar> | aha. |
| 09:21 | <Celestar> | so for cliffs to be any useful, that has to be changed ..... |
| 09:21 | * | Belugas cleans his glasses and stares again at Celestar's cliffs, speahless |
| 09:21 | <@peter1138> | AddSortableSpriteToDraw() |
| 09:22 | <@peter1138> | i suspect that adding landscape to the sortable list would be another performance hit :( |
| 09:22 | <Celestar> | I guess so as well. |
| 09:23 | <Celestar> | Belugas: don't get too excited, i still have no UI to make them :P |
| 09:23 | <andythenorth> | cliffs :D |
| 09:23 | <andythenorth> | insanity |
| 09:23 | <andythenorth> | just make bridges with filled in sides? |
| 09:23 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 09:23 | <Celestar> | rofl |
| 09:23 | <Celestar> | bridges .. don't exist |
| 09:24 | <Celestar> | peter1138: the question is .. how much of a performance hit ... |
| 09:24 | <andythenorth> | draw tunnel sprites if another route passes under your 'cliffs' bridge |
| 09:24 | <andythenorth> | :P |
| 09:24 | * | Celestar pokes andythenorth with a rusty pole :P |
| 09:24 | <andythenorth> | he |
| 09:24 | * | andythenorth is a big fan of doing things wrong |
| 09:25 | <andythenorth> | except cargo refits |
| 09:25 | <@Belugas> | Celestar, who cares, it's the possiblity that such a feature can be done, no matter how it will be done in a gui (which , in fact, will never win approval of all players...) |
| 09:25 | <Celestar> | peter1138: doesn't GTTS return whether a vehicle can actually enter a tile? |
| 09:25 | <Celestar> | Belugas: true. |
| 09:25 | <@peter1138> | Celestar, allegedly |
| 09:25 | <Celestar> | Belugas: but this can be yet another option to disable. |
| 09:25 | <Celestar> | peter1138: well. |
| 09:25 | <@peter1138> | Celestar, you'll want to add a z parameter to it |
| 09:25 | <Celestar> | peter1138: next problem. This needs to be z-aware :P |
| 09:26 | <@peter1138> | i think i may have done that once |
| 09:26 | <@peter1138> | when i was working on my original bridges over stuff patch |
| 09:26 | <Celestar> | me too :P |
| 09:26 | <Celestar> | for ... some patch I cannot remember |
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| 09:26 | <@Belugas> | the initial newmap, maybe? |
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| 09:27 | <Celestar> | possibly |
| 09:27 | <Celestar> | anyway I think that patch is 1) now useless, 2) lost on some of my backup disks at mom's :P |
| 09:27 | <@peter1138> | yes |
| 09:27 | <@peter1138> | pre-c++ |
| 09:28 | <Celestar> | hm. |
| 09:28 | <Celestar> | can't build a tunnel inside a cliff either :P |
| 09:29 | <Celestar> | because there isn't a "tile" to end it :D |
| 09:30 | <@peter1138> | :) |
| 09:32 | <@peter1138> | Celestar, viewport.cpp:23057 |
| 09:32 | <@peter1138> | + AddSortableSpriteToDraw(image, pal, x, y, 16, 16, 0, z, false, extra_offs_x, extra_offs_y, 0, sub); |
| 09:32 | <@peter1138> | + return; |
| 09:32 | <@peter1138> | something like that :p |
| 09:32 | <Celestar> | 23057? |
| 09:32 | <@peter1138> | errm |
| 09:32 | <@peter1138> | 482 |
| 09:32 | <@peter1138> | lol |
| 09:32 | <@peter1138> | i read the revision, not the line :p |
| 09:32 | <Celestar> | rofl :D |
| 09:33 | <Celestar> | I can't do that yet, because saveload will fuck the cliff. |
| 09:33 | <@peter1138> | it's in AddTileSpriteToDraw() basically |
| 09:33 | <@peter1138> | ok :) |
| 09:33 | <@peter1138> | ^B is ... different with that |
| 09:34 | <@peter1138> | the world is filled with bounding boxes ;) |
| 09:34 | <Celestar> | ^B |
| 09:34 | <Celestar> | ? |
| 09:35 | <@peter1138> | view bounding boxes |
| 09:35 | <Celestar> | ah |
| 09:35 | <@peter1138> | hmm, bounding boxes might be wrong for slopes... |
| 09:36 | * | Celestar thinks cliffs open not one, but several can-o-worms |
| 09:36 | <@peter1138> | yup |
| 09:39 | <Celestar> | 1) We need a new UI to change individual corners. |
| 09:39 | <Celestar> | 2) Z Order problem in the viewport |
| 09:39 | <Celestar> | 3) Missing Z information in GTTS |
| 09:39 | <TinoDidriksen> | ...give in and just go 3D. |
| 09:40 | <Celestar> | TinoDidriksen: and that helps exactly how? :P |
| 09:40 | <Celestar> | I think 2) is a minimal problem other than performance |
| 09:41 | <Celestar> | but BBs might need adaption |
| 09:42 | <@Belugas> | 3D.. the new buzz word... after XML ;) |
| 09:42 | <SpComb> | 3D XML |
| 09:42 | <SpComb> | plaintext is too 2D |
| 09:42 | <@Belugas> | with hazarai |
| 09:42 | <SpComb> | instead, we store the XML nodes in a sparse voxel space |
| 09:43 | <Celestar> | rofl |
| 09:44 | <Celestar> | also, I'm not sure how difficult add Z to the GTTS stuff is. |
| 09:44 | <Celestar> | .... |
| 09:44 | <Celestar> | wtb [grammar] |
| 09:46 | <Celestar> | how is it solved with bridges .... |
| 09:46 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 09:46 | <@Yexo> | as you said yourself, bridges don't exist |
| 09:46 | <@Yexo> | so vehicles on the bridge are on either end of the bridge |
| 09:47 | * | andythenorth remembers an idea about terraforming |
| 09:47 | <Celestar> | Yexo: nah I meant something else. |
| 09:47 | <@Yexo> | the drawing order? or what |
| 09:48 | <andythenorth> | There's only so much mud in the world. If you want more mud, you have to take it from somewhere. If you want less mud, you have to put it somewhere. |
| 09:48 | <andythenorth> | would make small maps interesting |
| 09:48 | <Celestar> | sec |
| 09:48 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 09:48 | <Celestar> | haha |
| 09:48 | * | andythenorth suspects that small maps would end up flat at height level 8 :P |
| 09:49 | <Celestar> | Yexo: same link as above, last file (Bridge) |
| 09:50 | <@Yexo> | the vehicle suddenly appears at the bridge ramp? |
| 09:50 | <Celestar> | no it doesn't |
| 09:50 | <Celestar> | I'm wondering why |
| 09:50 | <Celestar> | apparently it's not Z based :P |
| 09:50 | <Celestar> | hmm. |
| 09:51 | <Celestar> | it goes purely by direction |
| 09:51 | <@Yexo> | see GetTileTrackStatus_TunnelBridge |
| 09:51 | <@Yexo> | you can only enter the tile from one direction |
| 09:52 | <Celestar> | yeah |
| 09:52 | <Celestar> | I was faster ^ ^ |
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| 09:52 | <Celestar> | and I think I know where I last try to use z awareness.... |
| 09:52 | <Celestar> | when doing cbh :P |
| 09:54 | <Celestar> | s/try/tried |
| 10:04 | <Celestar> | bbl :) |
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| 10:08 | <@peter1138> | yeah, sometimes it just knows :p |
| 10:14 | <z-MaTRiX> | hi :) |
| 10:15 | <z-MaTRiX> | wanted to try out haskell programming, but i got demotivated when the library install 'cabal' thing attempted to count the spaces in the config file before the options (unsuccessfully) |
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| 11:02 | <andythenorth> | it's gone all quiet :o |
| 11:03 | <z-MaTRiX> | nahm |
| 11:03 | <z-MaTRiX> | so why does openttd not have an fps meter? |
| 11:03 | <@Yexo> | because it's pointless? |
| 11:03 | <z-MaTRiX> | rendering time/processing time statistics?M |
| 11:04 | <z-MaTRiX> | sure its statistical... |
| 11:04 | <z-MaTRiX> | or might tell you how slow is your pc for Openttd |
| 11:04 | <@Yexo> | well, same answer as always: nobody has been interested enough to code it |
| 11:05 | <z-MaTRiX> | aham i see :) |
| 11:05 | <__ln___> | seriously, what purpose would such a meter serve? |
| 11:05 | <z-MaTRiX> | __ln___<< informational |
| 11:06 | <z-MaTRiX> | also you could check your overall performance if you upgrade some functions |
| 11:07 | <@Yexo> | that is way too unreliable if you actually use a gui (which you need to see such a fps meter) |
| 11:07 | <@Yexo> | we have profiling and the null blitter for that |
| 11:08 | <z-MaTRiX> | Yexo<< sure i know SDL forces a waitvretrace, but it is still possible to check the processing time, and rendering time seperately ;) |
| 11:08 | <@Yexo> | that is compeltely besides the point |
| 11:09 | <z-MaTRiX> | btw im making friends with mutexes right now to be able to update screen asnychronously |
| 11:09 | <+glx> | we just disable display when profinling |
| 11:09 | <z-MaTRiX> | hmm well thats a solution for testing |
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| 11:21 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: have you got classes all figured out yet? :) |
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| 12:56 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r23179 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: use some tooltips that already existed (monoid) |
| 12:58 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r23180 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Cleanup: remove traces of having to double click on the NewGRF for changing the parameters |
| 13:00 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r23181 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Cleanup: remove some unused strings (monoid) |
| 13:02 | -!- | LordAro [5684196d@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd |
| 13:02 | <LordAro> | evening |
| 13:02 | <@Terkhen> | hi LordAro |
| 13:04 | <LordAro> | @commit 23178 |
| 13:04 | <@DorpsGek> | LordAro: Commit by rubidium :: r23178 /trunk/src (5 files in 2 dirs) (2011-11-10 06:15:03 UTC) |
| 13:04 | <@DorpsGek> | LordAro: -Feature [FS#4780]: in-game readme.txt readmer (LordAro) |
| 13:04 | <LordAro> | O.o |
| 13:04 | <LordAro> | :D |
| 13:04 | <@Terkhen> | :P |
| 13:06 | <@Terkhen> | what are you going to code now? ;) |
| 13:06 | <Eddi|zuHause> | <Celestar> aren't those ICE cars a short? <-- they almost fit into TTD scale then :p |
| 13:06 | * | Terkhen hopes for something way more scary |
| 13:07 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: yexo * r23182 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Feature: allow translatable readme files |
| 13:07 | <LordAro> | i dunno, i had some ideas while making the readme viewer, but i've forgotten them :L |
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| 13:09 | <@Terkhen> | it's late for making them translatable I guess |
| 13:09 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r23183 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt town_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: merge BRIBE_FAILED and BRIBE_FAILED_2 messages (monoid) |
| 13:09 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: rubidium * r23184 /trunk/src/lang/ (59 files in 2 dirs): -Cleanup: remove the removed strings from the translations as well |
| 13:11 | <LordAro> | i think i'll probably have a go at readme viewers for AIs and base sets, etc |
| 13:11 | <LordAro> | should be easier :) |
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| 13:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23180 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Cleanup: remove traces of having to double click on the NewGRF for changing the parameters <-- i really would like this behaviour back... |
| 13:13 | <@Yexo> | currently double-click moves a grf from active<>inactive, right? |
| 13:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | yes |
| 13:13 | <@Yexo> | I don't see how that is compatible with "open parameter window on double-click" |
| 13:13 | <Eddi|zuHause> | a GUI setting |
| 13:14 | <LordAro> | yay! moar settings :) |
| 13:14 | <Rubidium> | okay... I should make more cryptic messages |
| 13:14 | <@Terkhen> | :) |
| 13:25 | <andythenorth> | LordAro: \o/ |
| 13:25 | <LordAro> | :) |
| 13:26 | <LordAro> | ty, although i would estimate that 60%+ of the work was done by Alberth and Rubidium though |
| 13:27 | <LordAro> | but i motivated them to do it! :) |
| 13:27 | <Rubidium> | well, then you've done the remaining 120% ;) |
| 13:30 | <LordAro> | :) |
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| 13:32 | * | LordAro only just got that :) |
| 13:32 | <LordAro> | 90%9-90% rule, yes? |
| 13:34 | <@Yexo> | yes |
| 13:35 | <@Yexo> | running 14 AIs makes openttd really slow |
| 13:35 | <SpComb> | on a 14-core cpu? |
| 13:35 | <@Yexo> | that doesn't matter |
| 13:35 | <@Yexo> | all AIs run on the same core |
| 13:36 | <SpComb> | :( |
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| 13:38 | <@Terkhen> | LordAro^ |
| 13:38 | <@Terkhen> | something to fix :D |
| 13:38 | <LordAro> | :D |
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| 13:39 | <LordAro> | umm... "Warning. Your computer is too useless to run with 14 AIs. Please give up now" |
| 13:40 | <LordAro> | ? |
| 13:40 | <LordAro> | :P |
| 13:40 | <@Yexo> | main problem is lack of multicore support |
| 13:41 | <@Terkhen> | yes, I meant multicore support for running AIs in parallel :P |
| 13:42 | <LordAro> | yes. bit advanced for me... :) |
| 13:42 | <LordAro> | see above solution :) |
| 13:44 | <@Terkhen> | ok, as long as you use all 14 cores for displaying the message |
| 13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: translators * r23185 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) |
| 13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: |
| 13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: belarusian - 23 changes by Wowanxm |
| 13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium |
| 13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: german - 24 changes by planetmaker |
| 13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: spanish - 34 changes by Terkhen |
| 13:45 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: swedish - 45 changes by Zuu |
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| 14:40 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: yexo * r23186 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqbaselib.cpp: -Fix [FS#4830]: [Squirrel] replace custom qsort by std::sort to fix stack overflow |
| 14:41 | * | Rubidium ponders the irony in those emails "asking" to consider the environment by not printing it. Does one really think that it doesn't get printed that way? I'd argue you'd be printing even more (i.e. the request not to do it) and you'd be wasting a lot of energy by adding, transporting, processing and reading it |
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| 14:42 | <TyrHeimdall> | Rubidium: don't forget the added electricity needed for the transfer of said bulk of text :P |
| 14:42 | <Rubidium> | that's the transporting and processing I'm talking about ;0 |
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| 14:47 | * | Eddi|zuHause never got such an email |
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| 15:07 | <CIA-6> | OpenTTD: yexo * r23187 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqbaselib.cpp: -Fix (r23186): MSVC allowed non-const where const was mandatory |
| 15:07 | <@peter1138> | :) |
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| 15:20 | <Zuu> | LordAro: Have you any plans to generalize the NewGRF readme reader to a Readme Reader for other content types that also use tar files? |
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| 15:33 | <@Yexo> | <LordAro> i think i'll probably have a go at readme viewers for AIs and base sets, etc <- yes |
| 15:34 | <Zuu> | Good to hear |
| 15:35 | <Zuu> | I've just submitted Swedish translations for the NewGRF readme feature :-) |
| 15:36 | <Zuu> | I kind of thinks that "NewGRF" in "NewGRF readme of {STRING}" could be omitted. |
| 15:37 | <@Alberth> | there are also 'NewGRF parameters' and 'NewGRF Settings' :) |
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| 15:39 | <@Yexo> | but those don't have the grf name in the title |
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| 15:45 | <@Alberth> | true |
| 15:50 | <Zuu> | Also you need to click first on NewGRF settings to be able to view the readme. |
| 15:59 | * | peter1138 idly ponders the purpose os 30_PaintingVoidTiles.patch |
| 15:59 | <@peter1138> | (more height levels) |
| 16:00 | <@peter1138> | hmm |
| 16:00 | <@peter1138> | why is there geometry outside of the map... :S |
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| 16:07 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: afair that has something to do with the "outside" needing to be black. with the current method, that doesn't extend well beyond height level 16 |
| 16:08 | <@peter1138> | i don't see the relevance :S |
| 16:08 | <LordAro> | hai Alberth |
| 16:08 | <@Alberth> | hi LordAro |
| 16:08 | <LordAro> | i think congratulations are in order for the both of us :) |
| 16:09 | <LordAro> | (but mostly you :) ) |
| 16:09 | <@Alberth> | I was somewhat surprised tbh :) |
| 16:09 | <LordAro> | likewise :) |
| 16:10 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: if the "void" tile is painted flat, it must be painted at level 0 and repeated for each height level, up to the level of the map border |
| 16:11 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: if you have sloped black tiles, you can just draw them like normal tiles |
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| 16:17 | <andythenorth> | hola |
| 16:18 | <LordAro> | greets andy |
| 16:20 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, turn it into a cliff :) |
| 16:20 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: run classes off a cliff |
| 16:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: that would be very simcity-y |
| 16:21 | <andythenorth> | seems I upset wallyweb :( |
| 16:21 | <andythenorth> | who else can I upset :P |
| 16:21 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, also wouldn't solve anything |
| 16:21 | <@peter1138> | because that's what it does currently |
| 16:21 | <b_jonas> | simcity isn't the only game doing that |
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| 16:21 | <@peter1138> | except it just draws the shadow sprite |
| 16:21 | <@peter1138> | i guess drawing up to 255 of those shadow sprites gets a bit... repetitive |
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| 16:23 | <@peter1138> | disallow freeform edges, that'll solve it |
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| 16:29 | <@peter1138> | also |
| 16:29 | <@peter1138> | with ez |
| 16:29 | <@peter1138> | i can't see how to make scaled-up tile edges match native edges :S |
| 16:31 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: how would you feel about abandoning cargo classes and substituting wagon classes? |
| 16:31 | <andythenorth> | I had some pm chat with MB |
| 16:33 | <@peter1138> | vehicle classes :S |
| 16:33 | <@peter1138> | also |
| 16:33 | <@peter1138> | scale2x is not right :S |
| 16:35 | <andythenorth> | I'm only continuing to pursue classes because I get kicked in the teeth every time they're changed for a FIRS cargo, and I want to get it sorted out :P |
| 16:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | where was that ancient double mode filter patch... |
| 16:35 | <andythenorth> | from a vehicle set point of view, I'm ecstatic if we lose the XOR on labels + gain a list instead of bitmap |
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| 16:37 | <andythenorth> | "NO you may not change classes, it breaks sets" |
| 16:38 | <andythenorth> | "NO you may not change labels, it breaks sets!" |
| 16:38 | <andythenorth> | :D |
| 16:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i think that last one is rubbish |
| 16:40 | <@peter1138> | well yes, simple pixel doubling looks great |
| 16:40 | <Eddi|zuHause> | it may cause a few inconsistencies, but it's not "breaking" |
| 16:40 | <andythenorth> | nah, I'm exagerating |
| 16:40 | <@peter1138> | but the still has the issue of mixing highres and original sprites ;p |
| 16:40 | <andythenorth> | pixel doubling? :o |
| 16:41 | <andythenorth> | that would be useful now my eyes are getting old |
| 16:41 | <@peter1138> | zooming... |
| 16:41 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: there was a patch that had several "filters" to get to double size, not only simple doubling |
| 16:41 | <@peter1138> | you didn't see http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez3.png ? heh |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | how cute |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | please don't ship that |
| 16:42 | <@peter1138> | 4x |
| 16:42 | <andythenorth> | it will reveal all my mistakes |
| 16:44 | <Elu> | i wish we could get an extra zoom level in trunk |
| 16:44 | -!- | Elu is now known as Elukka |
| 16:44 | <Elukka> | even with just the current graphics |
| 16:44 | <Elukka> | basically all good sprites look better at double size to me.. |
| 16:45 | <Elukka> | because they're so damn small in the game by default |
| 16:45 | <@peter1138> | http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez4.png |
| 16:45 | <@peter1138> | yeah, 2x looks nice |
| 16:45 | <Elukka> | that sure does |
| 16:46 | <@peter1138> | the 32bpp crowd (all 2 of them?) would probably go mad if it wasn't 4x ;) |
| 16:47 | <andythenorth> | 4x also looks nice |
| 16:47 | <andythenorth> | they all look nice :) |
| 16:47 | <andythenorth> | what a lot of exciting stuff is getting done |
| 16:47 | <Elukka> | is that zoom thing something that we might one day see in trunk? |
| 16:48 | <andythenorth> | it's more exciting even than an episode of In The Night Garden :o |
| 16:50 | <@peter1138> | http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez5.png |
| 16:50 | <@peter1138> | ^ scale2x applied twice |
| 16:50 | <@peter1138> | looks mushy |
| 16:50 | <@peter1138> | road surface looks ok |
| 16:51 | <andythenorth> | meh |
| 16:51 | <andythenorth> | pixels should be nearly-square |
| 16:52 | <@peter1138> | http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez6.png |
| 16:52 | <@peter1138> | opengfx version |
| 16:53 | <@peter1138> | paint lines go weird :S |
| 16:54 | <@peter1138> | this is 8bpp, of course |
| 16:54 | <@peter1138> | opengfx looks nicer than ttd there |
| 16:58 | <@peter1138> | anyway, it has performance issues :( |
| 16:58 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the old patch applied some magic so that 30° lines get more emphasised |
| 16:59 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: apply scaling on a per-sprite basis, and put the high-res sprites into the sprite cache |
| 16:59 | <@peter1138> | Eddi|zuHause, it is |
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| 17:00 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
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| 17:22 | <@planetmaker> | hello |
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| 17:25 | <andythenorth> | hi planetmaker |
| 17:26 | <@planetmaker> | hi andythenorth |
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| 17:29 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
| 17:29 | <andythenorth> | my steel sprites suck |
| 17:30 | <andythenorth> | cba to fix them |
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| 17:32 | <@peter1138> | bah bah bah |
| 17:35 | <@Terkhen> | good night |
| 17:35 | <andythenorth> | tra la la |
| 17:36 | <andythenorth> | good night Terkhen |
| 17:37 | <andythenorth> | what larks |
| 17:38 | <andythenorth> | fixing lighting :P |
| 17:38 | <@peter1138> | urgh |
| 17:38 | <@peter1138> | way too much effort to draw sprites zoomed out :( |
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| 18:03 | <andythenorth> | @calc 40 + 40 *0 +1 |
| 18:03 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: 41 |
| 18:09 | <Eddi|zuHause> | even i could have calculated that... |
| 18:10 | <V453000> | :D nice one andy |
| 18:11 | <TGYoshi> | @calc 0/0 |
| 18:11 | <@DorpsGek> | TGYoshi: Error: float division |
| 18:11 | <TGYoshi> | Err |
| 18:13 | <__ln___> | DorpsGek: float division what? |
| 18:13 | <@planetmaker> | g'night |
| 18:13 | <Mazur> | Sleep well. |
| 18:13 | <TGYoshi> | And I thought 0/0 == 0 |
| 18:14 | <Mazur> | 0/0 can be anything. |
| 18:14 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: I got that one wrong |
| 18:14 | <__ln___> | TGYoshi: it certainly isn't. |
| 18:14 | <andythenorth> | annoyingly my wife got it right |
| 18:14 | <__ln___> | Mazur: wrong. |
| 18:14 | <Mazur> | Nope. |
| 18:14 | <Mazur> | Just try with limits. |
| 18:14 | <andythenorth> | I never learnt proper order of operations before, in engineering maths we were taught that it's not a valid calculation if you don't include the brackets |
| 18:14 | <TGYoshi> | __ln___: Why not? Zero pieces of ??? devided over zero people, how much get each guy? |
| 18:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | TGYoshi: 23 |
| 18:15 | <andythenorth> | you can't divide by zero |
| 18:15 | <andythenorth> | it's not a thing |
| 18:15 | <TGYoshi> | Possible too :P |
| 18:15 | <andythenorth> | you get at best oo |
| 18:15 | <TGYoshi> | Err, 1/0 = infinite, for me |
| 18:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | andythenorth: there's a whole branch of mathematics just about 0/9 |
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| 18:15 | <Eddi|zuHause> | 0/0 |
| 18:15 | <Mazur> | Of the denomimator > 0 you get something infinite, yes. |
| 18:15 | <__ln___> | TGYoshi: the question is not valid because there are zero people, so there's no one to divide to. |
| 18:16 | <Eddi|zuHause> | __ln___: if there are zero trees in the wood, and one falls down, does it make noise? |
| 18:16 | <TGYoshi> | lol |
| 18:16 | <@planetmaker> | TGYoshi: what's lim(x->0) x/(x^2) ? |
| 18:16 | <@planetmaker> | it's 0/0 in the limit. But is 0 the right answer? |
| 18:17 | <@planetmaker> | or lim(x->0) x/(2x) ? |
| 18:17 | <TGYoshi> | I think it depends on the situation the division happens |
| 18:17 | <@planetmaker> | there 0/0 = 0.5 is "right" |
| 18:17 | <@planetmaker> | it doesn't depend. It's never defined |
| 18:18 | <__ln___> | (it's defined on PowerPC) |
| 18:18 | <@planetmaker> | and if you define it, it's that: a definition which is individual to that very case you define it |
| 18:18 | <andythenorth> | philosophy before bed time :P |
| 18:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i have a feeling we have this discussion every week |
| 18:19 | <TGYoshi> | A discussion about 0/0? |
| 18:19 | <@planetmaker> | yes |
| 18:19 | <andythenorth> | we also discuss classes |
| 18:19 | <@planetmaker> | anyway. I was about to head off :-) g'night again |
| 18:19 | <andythenorth> | incessantly |
| 18:19 | <TGYoshi> | Yay.. |
| 18:19 | <andythenorth> | bye planetmaker |
| 18:19 | <TGYoshi> | Classes are discussed daily here >_> |
| 18:19 | <TGYoshi> | bye |
| 18:23 | <__ln___> | yes, this must be the second 0/0==0 discussion within two weeks. |
| 18:25 | <TGYoshi> | Maybe I should write (0/0) in every place any number can take place |
| 18:26 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you can draw an apple in every place where a number can apperar |
| 18:26 | <__ln___> | should there be something about 0/0 in the topic? ... on the other hand, that would make the matter on-topic |
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| 18:27 | <Eddi|zuHause> | just not a bitten one, you might run into legal troubles |
| 18:27 | <TGYoshi> | lol |
| 18:27 | <TGYoshi> | Why an apple? :P |
| 18:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | why not an apple? |
| 18:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | numbers are just completely random symbols |
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| 18:29 | <TGYoshi> | .. |
| 18:30 | <TGYoshi> | I´d prefer an orange instead |
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| 18:34 | <Mazur> | Here, have a bananananana. |
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| 18:38 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: wrt to excludes - remind me - when you add a cargo to the CTT, why do you need to explicitly exclude it? You had a convincing case |
| 18:38 | <andythenorth> | but I forget |
| 18:39 | <Eddi|zuHause> | not sure what the question is |
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| 18:40 | <andythenorth> | so if a prop is added for included refits using indices to CTT |
| 18:40 | <andythenorth> | you had compelling case to also add an exclude prop |
| 18:40 | <andythenorth> | again, indices to CTT |
| 18:42 | <Eddi|zuHause> | the reason was: when i add an entry to CTT, e.g. for one wagon to show separate graphics, then i shouldn't need to touch any other vehicle in the set |
| 18:42 | <andythenorth> | that is a compelling aim |
| 18:42 | <andythenorth> | what causes you to need to touch the others? |
| 18:43 | <andythenorth> | you want them to still be refittable to the new cargo? |
| 18:43 | <andythenorth> | I recall now |
| 18:43 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if you automatically exclude all entries of the CTT from refitting, i need to re-add it to every vehicle that previously decided based on classes |
| 18:43 | <andythenorth> | yup |
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| 18:45 | <andythenorth> | Eddi|zuHause: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=53654&p=979750#p979750 |
| 18:46 | <andythenorth> | and time for sleep for me |
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| 19:07 | <z-MaTRiX> | hey |
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| 19:23 | <@Yexo> | Eddi|zuHause: "that a vehicle set author has a way to ensure that every cargo, known or not." <- aren't you mssing something like "can be transported" at the end? |
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| 19:48 | <@peter1138> | 23:43 < Eddi|zuHause> if you automatically exclude all entries of the CTT from refitting, i need to re-add it to every vehicle that previously decided based on classes |
| 19:48 | <@peter1138> | well no, |
| 19:48 | <@peter1138> | cos if the vehicles decided based on class, they wouldn't have the CTT refit property |
| 19:48 | <@peter1138> | so it would still be based on class |
| 19:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: but the vehicle might have needed the refit property for other cargos |
| 19:53 | <Eddi|zuHause> | peter1138: like the default cargos WOOD and STEL, which have "wrong" classes, so need to be overridden manually |
| 20:00 | <@peter1138> | bah, backups |
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| 20:19 | <+michi_cc> | peter1138: I fixed you EZ patch :) |
| 20:19 | <+michi_cc> | peter1138: http://www.icosahedron.de/openttd/patches/fix_ez.patch on top of your ez2.patch |
| 20:21 | <+michi_cc> | No idea if the second hunk is needed or good, but I figured that this way leads to the same viewport area restriction. |
| 20:28 | <z-MaTRiX> | i've bought a god of knives ;> |
| 20:28 | <z-MaTRiX> | a ceramic knife |
| 20:30 | <z-MaTRiX> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceramic_knife |
| 20:31 | <z-MaTRiX> | cuts apple including seeds like butter |
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| 22:58 | <Snail_> | hi there |
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| 23:15 | <Snail_> | hi there |
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| --- | Log | closed Fri Nov 11 00:00:13 2011 |
